PDA

View Full Version : Where does this seasons MVP race rank among the 2K Era?



Chronz
01-25-2011, 07:13 PM
Is this one of the strongest or weakest races in recent memory? Who are the top 6 players at this midpoint?

superkegger
01-25-2011, 07:21 PM
It's been a weird year for the MVP. I would say at this point, there is no real clear cut favorite. Not that we haven't seen some great basketball this year, just a great NBA season in general, but I'm not sure the MVP race is as intriguing as it's been the past few years.

JordansBulls
01-25-2011, 08:58 PM
It's been a weird year for the MVP. I would say at this point, there is no real clear cut favorite. Not that we haven't seen some great basketball this year, just a great NBA season in general, but I'm not sure the MVP race is as intriguing as it's been the past few years.

I think it is because there are no runaway candidates.

ChiSox219
01-25-2011, 08:59 PM
Wouldn't call it the strongest race, CP3 vs Lebron would be my pick.

Definitely seems like the deepest but the season is barely halfway over.

Chronz
01-25-2011, 09:00 PM
I think it is because there are no runaway candidates.
Yea its not as bad as the Peja-Jermaine race but I think this race lacks any strong candidate. Personally I have Kobe-Bron-Wade-Dirk-CP3 as the clear cut MVP's but so many people have written off the idea of them as MVP's before the season even started.

Chronz
01-25-2011, 09:03 PM
Wouldn't call it the strongest race, CP3 vs Lebron would be my pick.

Definitely seems like the deepest but the season is barely halfway over.

Deep is one way to look at it though not top heavy, the year Kobe won it was deep and strong at the top with KG-Kobe-Bron-CP3 all having monstrous years.

Sadds The Gr8
01-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Yea it's probably the weakest since the Jermaine/Peja one...it's weird because there's not even a clear cut 2 or 3. it's a whole bunch of guys.

I have Kobe, Wade, Lebron, CP3, Rose.

D Roses Bulls
01-25-2011, 09:08 PM
Is this one of the strongest or weakest races in recent memory? Who are the top 6 players at this midpoint?

I'm actually enjoying this one more so then I have any for a while. right now, rose is looking like the favorite which could change, but it's not a given this year on who's going to win it. that means the competition has been better which is better for us fans.

JNA17
01-25-2011, 09:12 PM
Because there's no clear cut winner like last year with Lebron. Instead, the only clear cut award winner we got is ROTY with Blake Griffen. otherwise, everything else is a crap-shoot.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-25-2011, 09:20 PM
I think it should be Lebron.

But since his stats dropped, he probably won't win.

JNA17
01-25-2011, 09:32 PM
I think it should be Lebron.

But since his stats dropped, he probably won't win.

The hate and the argument about support cast would still apply as well.

davids22
01-25-2011, 09:42 PM
Depends, if you mean MVP by how much of a value he is to his team and how much a team might drop if they did not have him, then I'd go with Amare. But you have to mention Lebron in this discussion simply on the fact that his stats are still amazing (just a few ppg less) AND the fact that Cleveland is the worst team in the league as of now.

Rose has been dominating but I thought Rondo was having a much better year until he was injured. Who knows.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-25-2011, 09:43 PM
The hate and the argument about support cast would still apply as well.

I know. But he has a strong case. Haters will be haters so leave them.

The Cavs are doing horrible without him. Even the Heat have a losing record without Lebron too.

People can talk about Wade being the "Jordan" and Lebron being "Pippen" but Lebron's more important to that team in terms of performance over Wade.

cargobox
01-25-2011, 09:45 PM
It's the worst one.
Considering Kobe didn't win it when he scored 81... nobody deserves it this year then.
Fair argument right?

JNA17
01-25-2011, 09:48 PM
I know. But he has a strong case. Haters will be haters so leave them.

The Cavs are doing horrible without him. Even the Heat have a losing record without Lebron too.

People can talk about Wade being the "Jordan" and Lebron being "Pippen" but Lebron's more important to that team in terms of performance over Wade.

I don't disagree with you at all, and you make good points, I was just saying that some of the things U and I mentioned, would still apply and because Lebron is no longer that gimme MVP, it will be a lot more difficult for him to win any at the moment.

thekmp211
01-25-2011, 09:58 PM
its an intriguing one. the two most dominant players in the game are basically eliminated from the competition. the two early front-runners (cp3 and dirk) have come back down to earth a bit. no one has distinguished themselves statistically.

i dont think its the worst. but there have been more outstanding candidate pools, for sure. id honestly give it to lebron again this year, considering his overall play and the cavalier basically forfeiting an entire season to prove how important he was to the team.

xxplayerxx23
01-25-2011, 10:05 PM
AMARE :P lol

John Walls Era
01-25-2011, 10:06 PM
Rose or Lebron.

thekmp211
01-25-2011, 10:12 PM
Rose or Lebron.

see rose to me has been perhaps more valuable to his team than any player, but his overall production doesn't match that of the very best guys in the league.

xxplayerxx23
01-25-2011, 10:16 PM
lebron is no MVP this year he has two stars around him. Rose for sure gets it over him

thekmp211
01-25-2011, 10:19 PM
lebron is no MVP this year he has two stars around him. Rose for sure gets it over him

lebron has had the better individual season by a pretty wide margin. and consider the changes experienced by the two the cavs and heat.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2011, 10:37 PM
Its a deep race, with no clear separation at this point. Its not super top heavy, with the best player on the planet playing with another top 3 player, a aging star, etc. It will come down to late season, unlike many years, where the race is decided by game 40

Ovratd1up
01-25-2011, 10:51 PM
This year's race is interesting in that your candidate is determined by your view of the award, and almost everyone's view is represented by a different player.

magichatnumber9
01-25-2011, 10:57 PM
It's Lebron James.

nickdymez
01-25-2011, 11:03 PM
If Lebron wins MVP this year, the NBA is officially a joke..

Anyway, Amare and Rose

Korman12
01-25-2011, 11:03 PM
LeBron, Paul, and Rose are the top three for me right now, but I couldn't tell you the order.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2011, 11:04 PM
when all is said and done, I still think LeBron wins it. Dwight will get shut out due to him getting DPOY, and Paul's team won't be as dominant as some.

Korman12
01-25-2011, 11:05 PM
If Lebron wins MVP this year, the NBA is officially a joke..

Anyway, Amare and Rose

There have been worse MVP winners in the past.

1997, Malone over Jordan anyone?

mjqusoldier
01-25-2011, 11:08 PM
completely up for grabs. depends on 2nd half of season.

still1ballin
01-25-2011, 11:09 PM
Gotta be Rose

Hawkeye15
01-25-2011, 11:10 PM
If Lebron wins MVP this year, the NBA is officially a joke..

Anyway, Amare and Rose

so if LeBron outplays everyone on the best team, its a joke? Having a great player next to you makes you not worthy of the MVP? If that is the case, countless MVP's need to be taken away from history.

_KB24_
01-25-2011, 11:10 PM
It's intriguing but I feel as if the MVP award isn't on the same pedestal as it use to be. The league and media are much more concerned with the overall depth of contenders this year instead. As for MVP, I like how younger cats like Rose, Westbrook, Durant, and even Griffin have garnered MENTION.

I have it as between Rose, Dwight, and Paul right now. If you bring in the others, too many other factors come into play.

ChiSox219
01-25-2011, 11:31 PM
so if LeBron outplays everyone on the best team, its a joke? Having a great player next to you makes you not worthy of the MVP? If that is the case, countless MVP's need to be taken away from history.

I think there is some precedent, Shaq only won one MVP despite putting up several seasons that were the most productive in the league. Problem is, he was splitting votes with Kobe.

In that case I think the talent gap was wider, Lebron and Wade are closer so I'd think votes would also be split.

Besides, it's Most Valuable, not Player of the Year.

Hiphopopotamus
01-25-2011, 11:32 PM
Rose....is MVP for now. Now team has had as good a record with so many injuries. He carries the Bulls. I can see a good argument for CP3, Howard, LBJ, and Amare as well.

xxplayerxx23
01-25-2011, 11:44 PM
so if LeBron outplays everyone on the best team, its a joke? Having a great player next to you makes you not worthy of the MVP? If that is the case, countless MVP's need to be taken away from history.

so wait If jordan bird and magic johnson were on a team together , Jordan does what lebron is doing he deserves mvp . I think rose, Dirk, howard and amare are over Lebron, Imo. You prob disagree But i see it like you have wade and bosh on that team take james off and they prob still a top 3 team they would jell better just the same as takeing wade off they play better with one superstar with bosh

Mishmin
01-25-2011, 11:51 PM
Totally dependent on the second half of the season. It will end up being a lot to do with team records.

kobe24>lebron23
01-26-2011, 12:20 AM
Rose for now but in the end it will be between
Rose
Durant
Kobe
Dwight
Amare cp3
I can't put Lebron or wade there they won't win they have pretty similar stats!

abe_froman
01-26-2011, 12:38 AM
depends on what your ranking on? as most wide open? yes

there is no runaway's this year as there usually is.i put rose in the lead so far,but there are others kd,westbrook,kobe,dwight,cp3,dirk

i think lebron and wade will get some votes but still alot of hate out there from the past summer would have caused them to get shut out even if they were overwhelming favs.and amare's team isnt winning enough for him to get the award realistically(even though without him they'd be dead long ago)

jim51990
01-26-2011, 12:51 AM
lebron really would be the run away if it wasnt that he had moved teams and was such a run away the prior years

jim51990
01-26-2011, 12:52 AM
Rose for now but in the end it will be between
Rose
Durant
Kobe
Dwight
Amare cp3
I can't put Lebron or wade there they won't win they have pretty similar stats!

explain to me how you dont have bron but have kobe.
even some laker fans i know have admitted kobe has declined pretty significantly this year i dont think he deserves to be in the discussion

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 12:59 AM
I think there is some precedent, Shaq only won one MVP despite putting up several seasons that were the most productive in the league. Problem is, he was splitting votes with Kobe.

In that case I think the talent gap was wider, Lebron and Wade are closer so I'd think votes would also be split.

Besides, it's Most Valuable, not Player of the Year.

my only point was, a LeBron hater is being extreme. If LJ winning MVP is a joke then no need to listen to the reasoning.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 01:02 AM
so wait If jordan bird and magic johnson were on a team together , Jordan does what lebron is doing he deserves mvp . I think rose, Dirk, howard and amare are over Lebron, Imo. You prob disagree But i see it like you have wade and bosh on that team take james off and they prob still a top 3 team they would jell better just the same as takeing wade off they play better with one superstar with bosh

Its not that I disagree. I will be fine if a worthy player OUTPLAYS LeBron. But I don't know if that will happen.
btw, LJ/Wade/Bosh are nowhere near MJ/Bird/Magic. Not sure where that came from

James has more than proved his worth. Take him off a 60 win team, they become a 16 win team. He needs to continue to build steam on his play, but he will be in the discussion later, as he should be.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 01:03 AM
explain to me how you dont have bron but have kobe.
even some laker fans i know have admitted kobe has declined pretty significantly this year i dont think he deserves to be in the discussion

look at his name

sargon21
01-26-2011, 01:22 AM
Guys, Amare is out of the conversation. His team is barely over .500. Rose is in the lead so far, considering the injuries his team as had to deal with and yet they still have a top 3 record in the East. Lebron is certainly there as well, but I just don't see him getting love from the media, and despite what some will say, having Wade on his team certainly hurts his chances. And lastly, regarding the Thunder, Durant has not played that well this year, and Westbrook is pretty close to his production this year, so I see them canceling each other out, as of now.

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 01:25 AM
my only point was, a LeBron hater is being extreme. If LJ winning MVP is a joke then no need to listen to the reasoning.

Your more obsessed with Lebron than you say i am. The game is so much easier when your playing along side a Dewayne Wade. I dont get how you dont understand that.. What is with you and Lebron for real? Why do you make so many excuses for this man? Rose isnt playing alongside a talent like Wade. Lebron and wade are top 3 players in the league. So again, if Lebron wins AGAIN, then the award is a joke. Thats my OPINION.

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 01:29 AM
And why am i called a "Hater" because my expectations of "The King" are extremely high? I mean people call him "King". And say i should "Witness".. Well the marketing didnt work on me buddy. I watched Larry Bird be great and lead his team to the championship a couple times. Same with Jordan, Magic, Isiah. I "witnessed" that... Im not witnessing anything right now from the "king".

killbumdeluxe13
01-26-2011, 01:38 AM
Lebron, Rose, Amare. id say Rose though. if the bulls can keep themselves in the top 3 in the east. chicago has barely even seen what their actual starting 5 can do because Boozer missed a bunch of time at the beginning of the year and Noah got hurt shortly after Boozer came back. Even through all the injury Bulls havent missed a beat and their record proves it. The only constant being Derrick Rose thus far. No other player is more valuable to his teams success than Rose is right now. Amare is having a nice year but the knicks need to be better than middle of the pack for him to get some serious attention. Case can be made for Lebron being just as valuable to his team as Rose, Heat clearly need him to succeed but the fact that he has Wade and Bosh to help him hurt his chances IMO.

IversonIsKrazy
01-26-2011, 01:44 AM
IT's weird this year. Kobe is usually one of the clear cuts, but this year hes been off and isn't someone who truly deserves it. While Bron & Wade have had to share the spotlight, hurting their MVP ranks. KD has been struggling lately, with Westbrooke taking control of the team. Right now to me, it's between Dirk, Rose, CP3, 'Bron. It not necessarily weak I would say, I would say that the talent is spread this year, theres not 1 or 2 guys dominating the league.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-26-2011, 01:44 AM
explain to me how you dont have bron but have kobe.
even some laker fans i know have admitted kobe has declined pretty significantly this year i dont think he deserves to be in the discussion

Have you seen Kobe play this year? Have you looked at his numbers? He has had one of his better seasons. Plus his team is top 3 in the NBA. He never gets put in the discussion.
Should he win the MVP? No. The talent on his team is too good. At least that's what everyone's argument was against him. Some even were putting Pau as number 1. If Kobe can't even get top 5 recognition, Lebron and Wade should not either.

CP3 has been the MVP so far this year. Everyone uses the Cavs record to prove Lebron is the MVP. Well I will use the same argument, but my argument actually pertains to this year. Take Paul off the Hornet, and they are as bad as the Cavs. He is second in PER and first in win shares. Playing in the much tougher conference, with no one on his team near the talent of Wade or Bosh.

PurpleJesus28
01-26-2011, 01:54 AM
so far its gotta be either rose or lebron, id go with rose (go figure). he's more 'valuable' to the Bulls than Bron Bron is to the Heat. sure the heat have a losing record w/o Bron, but they'd still be a good team with just wade and bosh. can you imagine the Bulls w/o Rose? Dirk had a real shot at winning it too, but his injury set him back. Amare had a chance for a bit too while the Knicks were hot, but they fell back to earth pretty hard and so did his chances. it'll be interesting though, i like the competition and the fact that their isn't a clear cut number 1 this year, shows how talented the league is right now. still alotta bball left though, definitely no where near being decided yet.

Lakersfan2483
01-26-2011, 04:57 AM
Derrick Rose definitely has a strong case for MVP this year. Prior to Dirk's injury, he was at the top also. Top candidates are Rose, Paul, Kobe, Amare, Dirk, Dwight and Lebron.

Lakersfan2483
01-26-2011, 05:00 AM
Is this one of the strongest or weakest races in recent memory? Who are the top 6 players at this midpoint?

Definitely one of the weakest races in the last 10 years.

Skizzik
01-26-2011, 01:07 PM
Dirk hardly getting any love. Don't get me wrong, he's certainly not the favorite right now, but if he gets back to playing as well as he was before his injury and the team goes back to reeling off wins, I think his down time proves the valuable part. Just look how bad the Mavs sucked while Dirk was down (obviously, Caron going down didn't help, but the downward spiral started with Dirk's knee).

I have: Rose - Dirk - CP3 - Dwight - Lebron - Kobe...however, a big second half by any of these guys and their teams and I could see any of them winning it. Hell, I could still see a couple other dark horses winning (like Amare, Durant, Westbrook). No one's running away with it so far and there's a lot of time to make a big enough impact to sway the votes.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 01:13 PM
Your more obsessed with Lebron than you say i am. The game is so much easier when your playing along side a Dewayne Wade. I dont get how you dont understand that.. What is with you and Lebron for real? Why do you make so many excuses for this man? Rose isnt playing alongside a talent like Wade. Lebron and wade are top 3 players in the league. So again, if Lebron wins AGAIN, then the award is a joke. Thats my OPINION.

I don't get how you don't understand its easier to play with a great team regardless of the name on the back of your jersey.
And my point is, just because the best player in the NBA plays with another top 3-4 player, they should be cut from the conversation? Then we need to revisit some of the MVP's given out over the years and take them back.

And nobody is as obsessed with crapping on LeBron like some of you are. Some of the reasonable posters here end up defending a player they don't even really care about because of the idiotic statements made against him.

Raph12
01-26-2011, 01:35 PM
Yea its not as bad as the Peja-Jermaine race but I think this race lacks any strong candidate. Personally I have Kobe-Bron-Wade-Dirk-CP3 as the clear cut MVP's but so many people have written off the idea of them as MVP's before the season even started.

Really Chronz?... No Dwight, but you have Dirk, and both Wade and Lebron there as clear-cit MVP candidates?

You do know that Dwight's 4th in PER, 1st in DWS, 5th in WS, 6th in WS48, 2nd in DRAT, etc, etc... No way Dirk, Kobe or Wade is ahead of him.

KingPosey
01-26-2011, 02:04 PM
I dont feel like anyone has stepped up in undeniable MVP proportions yet.

Chronz
01-26-2011, 02:10 PM
Really Chronz?... No Dwight, but you have Dirk, and both Wade and Lebron there as clear-cit MVP candidates?

You do know that Dwight's 4th in PER, 1st in DWS, 5th in WS, 6th in WS48, 2nd in DRAT, etc, etc... No way Dirk, Kobe or Wade is ahead of him.

I forgot about him thats how deep this race is throw him in this crapshoot as well, if it makes you feel any better I had him as my preseason pick.

Tony_Starks
01-26-2011, 02:18 PM
Yea its not as bad as the Peja-Jermaine race but I think this race lacks any strong candidate. Personally I have Kobe-Bron-Wade-Dirk-CP3 as the clear cut MVP's but so many people have written off the idea of them as MVP's before the season even started.



That is a very true statement. For whatever reason people never want to see Kobe get it. When he didn't have help it was "he's just a good player on a bad team" and now its "look at all the help he has!" so he's in a no win situation. But if you look at his numbers, especially with his minutes being down the lowest in like 5 years, its very impressive.

Lebron sealed his mvp fate with the decision. People don't want to admit it but at the end of the day thats the bottom line.

I think at the end of the day if Rose can get ChiTown to 60 + wins then its all his.

Personally I think Rose, Kobe, and Dwight Howard are the most deserving though....

SteBO
01-26-2011, 02:19 PM
1. Howard
2. Rose
3. LeBron
4. Paul
5. Wade
6. Kobe

There isn't a clear cut favorite, but I think it comes down to Howard and Rose

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 02:20 PM
I don't get how you don't understand its easier to play with a great team regardless of the name on the back of your jersey.
And my point is, just because the best player in the NBA plays with another top 3-4 player, they should be cut from the conversation? Then we need to revisit some of the MVP's given out over the years and take them back.

And nobody is as obsessed with crapping on LeBron like some of you are. Some of the reasonable posters here end up defending a player they don't even really care about because of the idiotic statements made against him.

Its funny how no one ever challenges my rationale on not drinking the Lebron kool-aid. Im just called a hater and obsessed. And whats your definition of reasonable? I believe my posts are reasonable. I say Lebron is great at racking up stats, but cant lead a team to the promise land. Is that a lie? I dont think it is. Like i said, my criteria for calling a man a "king" is a little more in depth than many of yours.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Guys, Amare is out of the conversation. His team is barely over .500. Rose is in the lead so far, considering the injuries his team as had to deal with and yet they still have a top 3 record in the East. Lebron is certainly there as well, but I just don't see him getting love from the media, and despite what some will say, having Wade on his team certainly hurts his chances. And lastly, regarding the Thunder, Durant has not played that well this year, and Westbrook is pretty close to his production this year, so I see them canceling each other out, as of now.

Amare is out. Were only half way through. If the knicks got to 47 wins With the team he has he would have a shot. But i agree. I think that rose as of now is MVP.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 02:34 PM
Its funny how no one ever challenges my rationale on not drinking the Lebron kool-aid. Im just called a hater and obsessed. And whats your definition of reasonable? I believe my posts are reasonable. I say Lebron is great at racking up stats, but cant lead a team to the promise land. Is that a lie? I dont think it is. Like i said, my criteria for calling a man a "king" is a little more in depth than many of yours.

so when you are backed in a corner anytime Kobe is shown not to be the best player, or most clutch, your "he has 5 rings, suck it!" response is in depth? huh

We all know your opinions. I personally have never seen you back them up with anything of meaning. But you are more than welcome to your opinions, that is really all they are.

There isn't a player in history I can think of that could have led that roster to a championship.

When you make absolute statements with no line of reasoning, this is when you get the dreaded hater label. Although I am not really sure its that big of a deal since that term is thrown around erroneously on this site daily.

Back to the discussion. So far, its Dwight. At the end of the year the usual suspects will be there, and I doubt LeBron repeats quite honestly. Even if he is the best player in the world, they may simply overlook him for a guy like Dwight, Amare, or Rose.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 02:35 PM
Its not that I disagree. I will be fine if a worthy player OUTPLAYS LeBron. But I don't know if that will happen.
btw, LJ/Wade/Bosh are nowhere near MJ/Bird/Magic. Not sure where that came from

James has more than proved his worth. Take him off a 60 win team, they become a 16 win team. He needs to continue to build steam on his play, but he will be in the discussion later, as he should be.

I was just using an example. I think lebron will be in their league by the end of his Career. I agree he is great but if you take Lebron off the team They will still win 55 to 60 wins. I think the reason for this is wade and bosh would still gell and bosh would be the type he was in tor. I think rose is more important to his team the lebron is this year as of now. Same with amare but The knicks are 2 games over he would have to get to 47 to 52 wins to be considered. I think its rose right now IMO.

Baller1
01-26-2011, 02:36 PM
This half of the season has been interesting in terms of the MVP race, but as the season goes on, I think the cream of the crop will begin to separate itself (ie. LeBron, Dwight, Durant).

SteBO
01-26-2011, 02:37 PM
Amare is out. Were only half way through. If the knicks got to 47 wins With the team he has he would have a shot. But i agree. I think that rose as of now is MVP.
I honestly think the Knicks would have to win 50 games for Amare to win MVP. I could be wrong, but the Knicks haven't played well lately.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 02:37 PM
I was just using an example. I think lebron will be in their league by the end of his Career. I agree he is great but if you take Lebron off the team They will still win 55 to 60 wins. I think the reason for this is wade and bosh would still gell and bosh would be the type he was in tor. I think rose is more important to his team the lebron is this year as of now. Same with amare but The knicks are 2 games over he would have to get to 47 to 52 wins to be considered. I think its rose right now IMO.

I don't think that team wins nearly 60 games without LeBron. But I get your point, it was an example. That being said, Magic and Bird should not have won those MVP's with that line of reasoning.

Dwight, Rose, Amare, are all great candidates. Paul as well if he can get over 50-55 wins out west.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 02:40 PM
I honestly think the Knicks would have to win 50 games for Amare to win MVP. I could be wrong, but the Knicks haven't played well lately.

I agree the knicks do not look like they can win even 43 games right now.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 02:46 PM
I don't think that team wins nearly 60 games without LeBron. But I get your point, it was an example. That being said, Magic and Bird should not have won those MVP's with that line of reasoning.

Dwight, Rose, Amare, are all great candidates. Paul as well if he can get over 50-55 wins out west.

I think if paul gets that team 50 wins he should win it. Dwight is a guy i forgot, he def deserves to be up there. I dont know I think with just two of those stars they would still Be a great team. Maybe its because I think bosh would go back to being a 22 and 10 guy. I actually respect Lebron not his biggest fan. Dont forget durant.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 02:54 PM
I think if paul gets that team 50 wins he should win it. Dwight is a guy i forgot, he def deserves to be up there. I dont know I think with just two of those stars they would still Be a great team. Maybe its because I think bosh would go back to being a 22 and 10 guy. I actually respect Lebron not his biggest fan. Dont forget durant.

Durant was playing better last year, its killing his chances right now. On top of that, his team has escaped quite a few games with a W they shouldn't have. Furthermore, Westbrook is killin it, hurting him again.


28-16, 1st in NBA Northwest Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Scott Brooks (28-16)

PTS/G: 103.4 (7th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 101.9 (20th of 30)
SRS: 2.07 (10th of 30) ▪ Pace: 93.0 (13th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.9 (7th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 108.3 (18th of 30)
Expected W-L: 24-20 (11th of 30)



Look at the expected wins/losses. Not sure how OKC has 28 wins, but they do. Durant is looking up at Dwight, Paul, Rose, and possibly Amare at this point. Durant does usually gain steam as the year goes on, but he is not worth of MVP right now.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:06 PM
Durant was playing better last year, its killing his chances right now. On top of that, his team has escaped quite a few games with a W they shouldn't have. Furthermore, Westbrook is killin it, hurting him again.



Look at the expected wins/losses. Not sure how OKC has 28 wins, but they do. Durant is looking up at Dwight, Paul, Rose, and possibly Amare at this point. Durant does usually gain steam as the year goes on, but he is not worth of MVP right now.

I didnt look into it like this, your right. LeBron is ahead of him too :D lol I hope amare wins it ;P

rickshaw
01-26-2011, 03:10 PM
Its funny how no one ever challenges my rationale on not drinking the Lebron kool-aid. Im just called a hater and obsessed. And whats your definition of reasonable? I believe my posts are reasonable. I say Lebron is great at racking up stats, but cant lead a team to the promise land. Is that a lie? I dont think it is. Like i said, my criteria for calling a man a "king" is a little more in depth than many of yours.

who here is calling him "king" besides you?

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:12 PM
GO king james lmao Just to bother that other guy :D

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 03:14 PM
I didnt look into it like this, your right. LeBron is ahead of him too :D lol I hope amare wins it ;P

that being said, Durant is going to most likely destroy my Wolves tonight, so his numbers will be better tomorrow....

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:16 PM
that being said, Durant is going to most likely destroy my Wolves tonight, so his numbers will be better tomorrow....

No wolves are ganna hold him to 20 points. Shooting 30 percent Lol imagin i would Be :speechless:

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 03:20 PM
No wolves are ganna hold him to 20 points. Shooting 30 percent Lol imagin i would Be :speechless:

actually you are probably right. And Harden will have his career night, and Collision will have 15/11. Ugh, I hate my life from 7-9:30 a few times a week

thekmp211
01-26-2011, 03:20 PM
to me, the MVP award lies in some nebulous region between the following criteria.

outstanding individual play -- simple, best numbers, skill, overall individual accomplishment

importance to team -- how much did said individual play mean to your teams success? IE were you a very good statistical player on a great team that had depth or one with huge stats on a middling team that needed your performance to stay even mediocre?

team success -- inevitably the amount of wins, playoff positioning ect. will be factored in, regardless of circumstance revolving around a player.

now, to me, the award really hinges on the first two criteria. is it outstanding or value? i generally like to put a premium on value. the top 3 mvp candidates are all usually somewhat equally deserving. it comes down to how much their team needed them to get where they got.

thats why lebron wins the last 2, and why wade should have been seriously considered last year.

lebron is having the best individual season right now. rose and cp3 are the guys that are needed by their teams the most, though people need to stop and seriously think how far a wade-bosh-mike miller led heat team would get in the playoffs. certainly interesting.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:23 PM
actually you are probably right. And Harden will have his career night, and Collision will have 15/11. Ugh, I hate my life from 7-9:30 a few times a week

For now its ganna suck but Very soon they will be good. One or two more years of this then You will be a playoff team. This year hopefully you can get aKyle Irving(lol)Singlar, or Harrison barnes. How many 1st rounders do you have this year?

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
For now its ganna suck but Very soon they will be good. One or two more years of this then You will be a playoff team. This year hopefully you can get aKyle Irving(lol)Singlar, or Harrison barnes. How many 1st rounders do you have this year?

up to 3 1st rounders, depending on where Memphis finishes. But we have growth to go thru, Rubio needs to pan out, and we need a SG bad. C is also a need, Darko is nothing more than a capable backup. I know better days are ahead, but its tough watching them give games away left and right. Remember that stat I posted on the expected win/loss for OKC? The Wolves are opposite. They should have about 5 more wins.

thekmp211
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
^^ i really hope the wolves end up with kemba walker. he'd probably hate it there, but he is my favorite college player at the moment and would be like a good version of jonny flynn.

alencp3
01-26-2011, 03:32 PM
So now everyone says CP3 ? huh Didnt you all said he isnt even top 5 pg few days ago?
You know what ***** you all

alencp3
01-26-2011, 03:35 PM
James, CP3, Howard, Rose and Durant are the only ones who can win.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:35 PM
up to 3 1st rounders, depending on where Memphis finishes. But we have growth to go thru, Rubio needs to pan out, and we need a SG bad. C is also a need, Darko is nothing more than a capable backup. I know better days are ahead, but its tough watching them give games away left and right. Remember that stat I posted on the expected win/loss for OKC? The Wolves are opposite. They should have about 5 more wins.

Yeah I understand. Rubio is being a little *****. I like Darco. Hopefully you can have a great draft and get a top 2 pick. Love is an animal. If you guys get Iriving you can just tell rubio to go **** himself.

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:36 PM
Maybe you can get selby(after getting that top pick) At the end of the lottery. Lol hed be a good fit They have him going 14 to 16 range right now

alencp3
01-26-2011, 03:38 PM
Btw, when the Clippers make the playoffs ( hopefully next year ), Griffin is an automatic MVP

alencp3
01-26-2011, 03:39 PM
up to 3 1st rounders, depending on where Memphis finishes. But we have growth to go thru, Rubio needs to pan out, and we need a SG bad. C is also a need, Darko is nothing more than a capable backup. I know better days are ahead, but its tough watching them give games away left and right. Remember that stat I posted on the expected win/loss for OKC? The Wolves are opposite. They should have about 5 more wins.

Rubio
Wesley
Beasley
Love
Kanter

Doesnt sound bad to me

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 03:41 PM
Btw, when the Clippers make the playoffs ( hopefully next year ), Griffin is an automatic MVP

What if they do it this year???

Baller1
01-26-2011, 03:41 PM
that being said, Durant is going to most likely destroy my Wolves tonight, so his numbers will be better tomorrow....

I hope so... :laugh2:

alencp3
01-26-2011, 03:59 PM
What if they do it this year???

I doubt it since Gordon will be out for a month :(
But if they somehow do he will be top 3 ,not a winner cuz he is a rookie and Clippers are 8th placed

xxplayerxx23
01-26-2011, 04:01 PM
I doubt it since Gordon will be out for a month :(
But if they somehow do he will be top 3 ,not a winner cuz he is a rookie and Clippers are 8th placed

I agree. Gordon is a huge loss, plus that dirty foul on giffen hurt him i hope he is ok.

tbone2171
01-26-2011, 04:02 PM
Its funny how no one ever challenges my rationale on not drinking the Lebron kool-aid. Im just called a hater and obsessed. And whats your definition of reasonable? I believe my posts are reasonable. I say Lebron is great at racking up stats, but cant lead a team to the promise land. Is that a lie? I dont think it is. Like i said, my criteria for calling a man a "king" is a little more in depth than many of yours.

Dude, look at your avatar..how is that not being a hater?

D1JM
01-26-2011, 04:37 PM
funny how people only credit lebron to miami success off a small sample size of two games were he didnt play.

RZZZA
01-26-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't see how Amare can be considered an MVP. Aren't they currently a middle-of-the-pack team and didn't they just drop like 5...or 6 games in a row?

Would Rose ever allow the Bulls to drop 5 games in a row? I don't think so.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 04:41 PM
funny how people only credit lebron to miami success off a small sample size of two games were he didnt play.

I don't think there is any denying LeBron makes any team really good, but yes, until we have a large sample size, its only advanced numbers to work with. Currently James leads the Heat's simple plus/minus rating by a lot, and pretty much all advanced numbers. He is their best player. But I wouldn't doubt that team, if healthy, could win 45-50 games and possibly upset someone first round, and then get knocked out.
I agree though, you can't just look at 2 freakin games to determine his actual worth.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2011, 04:41 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't see how Amare can be considered an MVP. Aren't they currently a middle-of-the-pack team and didn't they just drop like 5...or 6 games in a row?

Would Rose ever allow the Bulls to drop 5 games in a row? I don't think so.

well, Rose has a better team around him, that defends. Teams like that won't drop 5 in a row often

Confusious
01-26-2011, 04:42 PM
It's been an engaging MVP race for me. Maybe not 'the best', but it's still strong.

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 04:43 PM
who here is calling him "king" besides you?

hahahhahahhaha.. You think i made up that moniker?

abe_froman
01-26-2011, 04:46 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't see how Amare can be considered an MVP. Aren't they currently a middle-of-the-pack team and didn't they just drop like 5...or 6 games in a row?

Would Rose ever allow the Bulls to drop 5 games in a row? I don't think so.

they are,but the argument for amare is that without him,they wouldnt even be middle of the pack.they'd be in the basement.being .500% is such a huge turn around for that franchise,and its mostly due to him.so many feel it should be reward...but it wont,because your right the team doesnt have the win total to get him the award as the team's record counts alot in mvp voting

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 04:53 PM
Dude, look at your avatar..how is that not being a hater?

I think dewayne wade is an awesome basketball player. But thats not my point. and this guys comment is the reason i dont bother a lot of times here...

tbone2171
01-26-2011, 06:04 PM
I think dewayne wade is an awesome basketball player. But thats not my point. and this guys comment is the reason i dont bother a lot of times here...

you didnt answer my question

Raph12
01-26-2011, 06:52 PM
1. Howard
2. Rose
3. LeBron
4. Paul
5. Wade
6. Kobe

There isn't a clear cut favorite, but I think it comes down to Howard and Rose

Gimme Lebron before Rose...

SteBO
01-26-2011, 06:53 PM
Gimme Lebron before Rose...
I can understand that. The way CLE is playing is helping his case.

Raph12
01-26-2011, 07:11 PM
I can understand that. The way CLE is playing is helping his case.

Tbh, I got CP3, Kobe and Wade before Rose as well, but admitting it will get your head bit off here lol.

thekmp211
01-26-2011, 07:29 PM
man i cant make up my mind. i think its cp3, lebron, dwight, rose, dirk in that order. the magic would be...interesting...without dwight. same goes for the hornets, thats a lottery team without paul.

nickdymez
01-26-2011, 09:16 PM
you didnt answer my question

How is my avatar in any way hating? It says nothing negative about the heat.

thekmp211
01-26-2011, 09:35 PM
in regards to the actual topic of the thread, i would say that this is one of the more lacking mvp races in recent memory, in terms of truly dominant individual performances.

the 2k decade was filled with monsterous seasons from duncan and shaq, kobe and tmac, and later on wade and lebron as well.

just eyeballing the decade and remembering the races to the best of my ability, i'd say runners up from the following years would be front-runners this season

2001
2003
2004-2010

so basically, only 2000 and 2002 featured less outstanding mvp races in my opinion.

Ovratd1up
01-26-2011, 09:39 PM
Tbh, I got CP3, Kobe and Wade before Rose as well, but admitting it will get your head bit off here lol.

I can understand Paul and to an extent Wade, but Kobe? I don't know that it's a question that Rose is more determinant of his team's success than Kobe. Same can probably said about Wade. Again, the award doesn't go to the best players every time, or Rose wouldn't be in conversation with these names to begin with.

Raph12
01-26-2011, 09:48 PM
I can understand Paul and to an extent Wade, but Kobe? I don't know that it's a question that Rose is more determinant of his team's success than Kobe. Same can probably said about Wade. Again, the award doesn't go to the best players every time, or Rose wouldn't be in conversation with these names to begin with.

Rose probably means slightly more to his team than Kobe or Wade, but their stats are much better than his and with a higher PER and WS rate, it's hard to argue against them.

Ovratd1up
01-26-2011, 11:01 PM
Rose probably means slightly more to his team than Kobe or Wade, but their stats are much better than his and with a higher PER and WS rate, it's hard to argue against them.

There's a reason Kobe only plays 33 minutes while Rose plays 38. There is no doubt that the Bulls depend on Rose much more than either the Lakers and Heat depend on Kobe and Wade; he holds more value to his team than either. Hell, Kobe and Wade don't even lead their team in WS rate or PER. Their stats aren't superior enough (I'm not even sure Kobe's are superior at all) to offset this clear difference.

Raph12
01-26-2011, 11:42 PM
There's a reason Kobe only plays 33 minutes while Rose plays 38. There is no doubt that the Bulls depend on Rose much more than either the Lakers and Heat depend on Kobe and Wade; he holds more value to his team than either. Hell, Kobe and Wade don't even lead their team in WS rate or PER. Their stats aren't superior enough (I'm not even sure Kobe's are superior at all) to offset this clear difference.

Kobe leads his team in PER and Wade plays with Lebron; they may not be as important to their team (arguable of course), but they're still much more efficient than Rose and their teams have a better record...

Here is the comparison between the three:
Wade - 25.4PER .575TS% .514EFG% 10.3RB% 22.4AST% 2.0STL% 2.3BLK% 12.0TO% 113Ortg 101Drtg 0.220WS/48
Kobe - 24.7PER .557TS% .493EFG% 8.6RB% 26.6AST% 2.0STL% 0.2BLK% 11.5TO% 113Ortg 105Drtg 0.199WS/48
Rose - 22.9PER .538TS% .485EFG% 7.0RB% 40.2AST% 1.5STL% 1.5BLK% 13.3TO% 110Ortg 102Drtg 0.187WS/48

The only stat Rose beats them in is AST%, which makes sense because he's a PG, which also explains the higher TO%... As you can see, both Kobe and Wade have been playing much better than Rose and both teams have a better record as well.

kgjfan243
01-26-2011, 11:52 PM
unlike the last two years definitely. lebron deserved them and all but everyone knew he would win them. this is going to come down to the final week imo.

Ovratd1up
01-27-2011, 12:11 AM
Kobe leads his team in PER and Wade plays with Lebron; they may not be as important to their team (arguable of course), but they're still much more efficient than Rose and their teams have a better record...

Here is the comparison between the three:
Wade - 25.4PER .575TS% .514EFG% 10.3RB% 22.4AST% 2.0STL% 2.3BLK% 12.0TO% 113Ortg 101Drtg 0.220WS/48
Kobe - 24.7PER .557TS% .493EFG% 8.6RB% 26.6AST% 2.0STL% 0.2BLK% 11.5TO% 113Ortg 105Drtg 0.199WS/48
Rose - 22.9PER .538TS% .485EFG% 7.0RB% 40.2AST% 1.5STL% 1.5BLK% 13.3TO% 110Ortg 102Drtg 0.187WS/48

The only stat Rose beats them in is AST%, which makes sense because he's a PG, which also explains the higher TO%... As you can see, both Kobe and Wade have been playing much better than Rose and both teams have a better record as well.

And Kobe and Wade have him beat in rebounding as they are two-guards, and are more efficient scorers, as they are elite players and that is their clear-cut primary role. Really the stats are close and not distinct enough to determine value. Though I think Wade's are the best of the group, as you said he has Lebron. Oh and I was wrong about Kobe's PER, though he's really not "much more efficient" than Rose or anyone really, he's been pretty mediocre efficiency-wise this year. The better records come from better supporting casts and overall better health and stability than what Rose has had to deal with. Again, I think the discrepancy in their respective roles and workload gives Rose the slight edge.

Raph12
01-27-2011, 12:20 AM
And Kobe and Wade have him beat in rebounding as they are two-guards, and are more efficient scorers, as they are elite players and that is their clear-cut primary role. Really the stats are close and not distinct enough to determine value. Though I think Wade's are the best of the group, as you said he has Lebron. Oh and I was wrong about Kobe's PER, though he's really not "much more efficient" than Rose or anyone really, he's been pretty mediocre efficiency-wise this year. The better records come from better supporting casts and overall better health and stability than what Rose has had to deal with. Again, I think the discrepancy in their respective roles and workload gives Rose the slight edge.

Compound his PER, higher percentages, low TO rate with his WS rate and his value is significantly higher than Rose's... Don't get me wrong, Rose has improved significantly from last season and is young so will only get better, but he doesn't make my Top 5 yet.

If you want to take it a step further, I can make a pretty strong case for Kevin Durant as well.

sargon21
01-27-2011, 12:54 AM
Raph -- it's not all about advanced statistics. What about taking your team to a 3rd seed in the top-heavy East, while having 1 All-star big man out at all times?

Oh yea, and see you friday :)

Ovratd1up
01-27-2011, 01:12 AM
Compound his PER, higher percentages, low TO rate with his WS rate and his value is significantly higher than Rose's... Don't get me wrong, Rose has improved significantly from last season and is young so will only get better, but he doesn't make my Top 5 yet.

If you want to take it a step further, I can make a pretty strong case for Kevin Durant as well.

His advantages in percentages, TO rate, and WS rate are not as great as you make them out to be. I don't think it's enough to offset the significantly less crucial role that he plays which you continue to ignore.

And Durant is being underrecognized, I can agree to that.

Ty Fast
01-27-2011, 01:31 AM
lebron
26-7-7

Chronz
01-27-2011, 02:18 AM
His advantages in percentages, TO rate, and WS rate are not as great as you make them out to be. I don't think it's enough to offset the significantly less crucial role that he plays which you continue to ignore.

And Durant is being underrecognized, I can agree to that.
So MPG is your determining factor? Hes ignoring it because its not as important as the other stats, you see when your ahead in WinShares despite the fact that your playing less minutes it pretty kills the argument that they havent been considerably more efficient. They are getting more done in less time and thus dont NEED to be on the floor that long. If Rose were this efficient hed be getting more rest and the Bulls would be a better team for it. MVP's usually dont play heavy minutes.

D1JM
01-27-2011, 02:37 AM
if cp3 stays as the number 3-5 seed on the west, than i dont see how anyone can take away the mvp from him.

sargon21
01-27-2011, 02:45 AM
top 3 maybe, but 4 or 5 isn't good enough imo

D1JM
01-27-2011, 02:56 AM
top 3 maybe, but 4 or 5 isn't good enough imo

Maybe. Who knows how they actually vote. I think MJ deserved 10 mvps and he only got 5.

jmtapia
01-27-2011, 03:17 AM
lebron
26-7-7

+1

LBJ for MVP. Funny how no one mentions him.

Ovratd1up
01-27-2011, 03:39 AM
So MPG is your determining factor? Hes ignoring it because its not as important as the other stats, you see when your ahead in WinShares despite the fact that your playing less minutes it pretty kills the argument that they havent been considerably more efficient. They are getting more done in less time and thus dont NEED to be on the floor that long. If Rose were this efficient hed be getting more rest and the Bulls would be a better team for it. MVP's usually dont play heavy minutes.

Haha, no not MPG. I was referring to the dependence of their respective teams on their performance night in and night out. The reason that Kobe doesn't have to do as much has more to do with the level of talent around him than his individual performance thus far this season. If Derrick had an equal supporting cast, he wouldn't need to put the team on his back as often and for as long as he does, very likely shoring up his efficiency and MPG. Oh, and Rose is actually ahead of Kobe in WinShares.

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 03:57 AM
explain to me how you dont have bron but have kobe.
even some laker fans i know have admitted kobe has declined pretty significantly this year i dont think he deserves to be in the discussion

Really well I didn't say now i said at the end of the year and maybe cuz he doesn't have one of the top 3-5 players in the game next to him oh and his stats r pretty good and his efficiency has only gone up after that bad start..and why am I even arguing with u your a Lebron supporter and yeah Kobe has declined but he's still the best or should I say 2nd best(don't wanna piss people off) I'd rather have skill and determination to win Kobe then a stat loving media whore Lebron

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 04:04 AM
1. Howard
2. Rose
3. LeBron
4. Paul
5. Wade
6. Kobe

There isn't a clear cut favorite, but I think it comes down to Howard and Rose

No offense SteBO i respect u alot but you have Howard in from of rose? No amare but yet Kobe wade and bron make it? Don't get me wrong at the end of the year it might be different but now stat is a top 5 MVP candidate and rose should be ahead of Dwight.. And Cp3 and Dwight should be 2-3

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 04:10 AM
so when you are backed in a corner anytime Kobe is shown not to be the best player, or most clutch, your "he has 5 rings, suck it!" response is in depth? huh

We all know your opinions. I personally have never seen you back them up with anything of meaning. But you are more than welcome to your opinions, that is really all they are.

There isn't a player in history I can think of that could have led that roster to a championship.

When you make absolute statements with no line of reasoning, this is when you get the dreaded hater label. Although I am not really sure its that big of a deal since that term is thrown around erroneously on this site daily.

Back to the discussion. So far, its Dwight. At the end of the year the usual suspects will be there, and I doubt LeBron repeats quite honestly. Even if he is the best player in the world, they may simply overlook him for a guy like Dwight, Amare, or Rose.

Since u like saying statement of how he doesn't back things up I want u to back up your buddy Lebron and tell me how he is so much better then everyone else besides his stats??
I mean Kobe a better shooter
Greater skill set
Just as good a passer
Great defender when he wants to be(shut down Carmelo Friday)

Sure lebrons the king the king of stats but other then that he ain't no king hes more like a follower!

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 04:15 AM
man i cant make up my mind. i think its cp3, lebron, dwight, rose, dirk in that order. the magic would be...interesting...without dwight. same goes for the hornets, thats a lottery team without paul.

Dirk but not Kobe or durant??:confused:

Raph12
01-27-2011, 04:19 AM
So MPG is your determining factor? Hes ignoring it because its not as important as the other stats, you see when your ahead in WinShares despite the fact that your playing less minutes it pretty kills the argument that they havent been considerably more efficient. They are getting more done in less time and thus dont NEED to be on the floor that long. If Rose were this efficient hed be getting more rest and the Bulls would be a better team for it. MVP's usually dont play heavy minutes.

Thank you, god intelligent conversation is so hard to come by on PSD... And I know I just used the lord's name in vain, but damn it's hard not to on this site lol.

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 04:25 AM
It's funny how everyone discredits Kobe Every year for MVP I guess winning too much does hurt your reputation... And only people who say Lebron is 1 or 2 in the race are heat fans and Lebron supporters an unlike us real NBA fans we don't actually have the stat king 1 or 2 I don't even have Kobe in my top 4 he's number 5 to me and that's coming from a big laker fan!
Sure I'd love Kobe to win it but he doesn't deserve it right now consideration yes but deserving no but at the end of the year hopefully it's a different story... And sorry if my English sucks sometimes stupid iPhone corrects me

Raph12
01-27-2011, 05:14 AM
Raph -- it's not all about advanced statistics. What about taking your team to a 3rd seed in the top-heavy East, while having 1 All-star big man out at all times?

Oh yea, and see you friday :)

Considering his numbers are worse than any other legit MVP candidate and his team is still 3rd in the East (although they have a pretty light schedule [7th easiest I believe]), has a lot to do with his teammates playing well, especially on defense.

And yeah definitely looking forward to it, you guys should look for redemption after last time, so let's see how much you guys got when you're hungry.


Haha, no not MPG. I was referring to the dependence of their respective teams on their performance night in and night out. The reason that Kobe doesn't have to do as much has more to do with the level of talent around him than his individual performance thus far this season. If Derrick had an equal supporting cast, he wouldn't need to put the team on his back as often and for as long as he does, very likely shoring up his efficiency and MPG. Oh, and Rose is actually ahead of Kobe in WinShares.

He doesn't need to do as much as he does, but it takes time and practise to figure out when to pass and when to call your own number. Rose should definitely get 15-20FGApergame but Boozer is a legit 20-10 guy, or maybe that was DWill's doing, he should get more touches and everyone else should share the wealth. The chemistry will take some time and it will take time again when Noah returns, but as of right now, Rose is not putting up the right numbers to be put up there with Dwight, Lebron, CP3, Kobe and Wade; or even Durant and Dirk for that matter.


No offense SteBO i respect u alot but you have Howard in from of rose? No amare but yet Kobe wade and bron make it? Don't get me wrong at the end of the year it might be different but now stat is a top 5 MVP candidate and rose should be ahead of Dwight.. And Cp3 and Dwight should be 2-3

Rose and Amare aren't playing at the same level as guys like Dwight, Lebron, CP3, Wade and Kobe... They're not even on Dirk or Durant's level atm, don't be deceived by pergame stats, look deeper and you'll understand.

nickdymez
01-27-2011, 01:01 PM
Really well I didn't say now i said at the end of the year and maybe cuz he doesn't have one of the top 3-5 players in the game next to him oh and his stats r pretty good and his efficiency has only gone up after that bad start..and why am I even arguing with u your a Lebron supporter and yeah Kobe has declined but he's still the best or should I say 2nd best(don't wanna piss people off) I'd rather have skill and determination to win Kobe then a stat loving media whore Lebron

95% of the people on this site will never understand this comment. They will label you a "kobe homer" or a Lebron hater. Fact is you cant argue with the truth. One thing that is always interesting to me is when i hit people with the "Could you ever imagine kobe leaving the lakers and going to a team that had another great talent on it? Like kobe a few years ago going to a team with vince carter or t-mac (When they were tearing **** up)?" I get the same answer. "Everyone needs another superstar to win" Yea but people dont sell out to get that other superstar..

Hawkeye15
01-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Since u like saying statement of how he doesn't back things up I want u to back up your buddy Lebron and tell me how he is so much better then everyone else besides his stats??
I mean Kobe a better shooter
Greater skill set
Just as good a passer
Great defender when he wants to be(shut down Carmelo Friday)

Sure lebrons the king the king of stats but other then that he ain't no king hes more like a follower!

you have become someone not worth debating when it comes to player evaluations. None of what you say can be backed up in the slightest.

nickdymez
01-27-2011, 01:32 PM
you have become someone not worth debating when it comes to player evaluations. None of what you say can be backed up in the slightest.

I actually think you make some really good points hawk, but why do you resort to this when it seems you cant use advanced stats to back up your opinion? Just for a second pretend that the internet doesn't exist and you have to just watch the games and evaluate these players. Is what the guy saying wrong?

king4day
01-27-2011, 01:34 PM
Never thought I'd say it but I think Lebron has to be considered.
Rose is up there for me too. Paul as well.

nuggetsyankees
01-27-2011, 01:40 PM
my list in no order is CP3, Amare, Rose, Lebron, Nowitzki, Howard

Hawkeye15
01-27-2011, 01:41 PM
I actually think you make some really good points hawk, but why do you resort to this when it seems you cant use advanced stats to back up your opinion? Just for a second pretend that the internet doesn't exist and you have to just watch the games and evaluate these players. Is what the guy saying wrong?

because nothing I can ever say to this dude will be acknowledged as anything but wrong. I am basing it off historical debates with him. Nothing more, nothing less.
Trust me, I have watched plenty of ball dude. Why would I be here otherwise?

nickdymez
01-27-2011, 01:53 PM
because nothing I can ever say to this dude will be acknowledged as anything but wrong. I am basing it off historical debates with him. Nothing more, nothing less.
Trust me, I have watched plenty of ball dude. Why would I be here otherwise?

Thats my point. I read your posts, you seem very knowledgeable about basketball.. Thats why i say put the stats aside and judge these guys purely off watching them play.

Hawkeye15
01-27-2011, 01:57 PM
Thats my point. I read your posts, you seem very knowledgeable about basketball.. Thats why i say put the stats aside and judge these guys purely off watching them play.

I prefer to use both. Neither tells the whole story by themselves, know what I mean?

thekmp211
01-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Dirk but not Kobe or durant??:confused:

...yup. dirk was probably the front-runner pre-injury. i think he still deserves some mention, although i can imagine one of those two or dwyane wade filling out the top 5 soon enough.

kobe's mvp days are behind him. imo he got SCREWED out of two from 05-07. nash-mania and then dirk getting him, along with laker mediocrity and the negative media spin against kobe at the time, really cost him when he was really without doubt the most deserving player.

nickdymez
01-27-2011, 03:13 PM
I prefer to use both. Neither tells the whole story by themselves, know what I mean?

Yea i feel you. I'll take notice of a player off of the stats, then i'll watch and see what the hype is about. I usually dissect that players game and take into account the circumstances in which those stats are being accumulated. Thats when i make my judgment of a player. Kevin love is next for me....

Hawkeye15
01-27-2011, 03:16 PM
Yea i feel you. I'll take notice of a player off of the stats, then i'll watch and see what the hype is about. I usually dissect that players game and take into account the circumstances in which those stats are being accumulated. Thats when i make my judgment of a player. Kevin love is next for me....

I download stats like Neo in the matrix. Straight to the brain son

nickdymez
01-27-2011, 04:18 PM
I download stats like Neo in the matrix. Straight to the brain son

lol.. Guess i should have taken the blue pill

kobe24>lebron23
01-27-2011, 05:18 PM
...yup. dirk was probably the front-runner pre-injury. i think he still deserves some mention, although i can imagine one of those two or dwyane wade filling out the top 5 soon enough.

kobe's mvp days are behind him. imo he got SCREWED out of two from 05-07. nash-mania and then dirk getting him, along with laker mediocrity and the negative media spin against kobe at the time, really cost him when he was really without doubt the most deserving player.

Yeah I understand... Yes he deserves mention still I mean I had him at 1b behind amare at one point when both guys were hot but now to me he's top 7-8... Everyone has there own opinions though

thekmp211
01-27-2011, 05:21 PM
Yeah I understand... Yes he deserves mention still I mean I had him at 1b behind amare at one point when both guys were hot but now to me he's top 7-8... Everyone has there own opinions though

yeah id say somewhere from 5-8 is about right. by behind him i just mean between age, numbers, other guys ect. he's probably never going to be perceived as a favorite again. still right there.

Dnovakovic099
01-27-2011, 06:48 PM
It is very interesting how so many people on this site say the Bulls fans are homers, but to me it looks more like there is a lot of Bulls haters. When we were playing very good basketball and winning games while playing the toughest schedule without our 2nd best player who averages 20 and 10 people where saying the Knicks are as good as the Bulls. The Bulls fans kept saying, the Knicks have had an easy schedule while the Bulls have played a tougher one. Now look where the Knicks are once a few tough teams rolled along into their schedule.

Now Rose has that team, who by the way has a worse supporting cast than the Magic even without the injuries, have a better record than the Magic. Lets look at the other candidates here.

Howard: Better supporting cast, especially when you look at all the injuries to Noah and Boozer, and the Magic have a worse record so Rose beats him by a slight margin because their records are very close, and the Magic supporting cast is slightly better.

LeBron: He is the best player in the league period, but it's an MVP race, and you cannot tell me that the Heat aren't better than New York and Atlanta without LeBron. While, the Bulls are no where near Atlanta's level without Rose and are definitely worse than the Knicks with Watson starting. So while LeBron is a better and more efficient player, he is not more valuable.

Here is what I think each team needs to do in order for their player to win, assuming the player's stay healthy and play at the same level they are currently playing:

1. Heat: 65 wins
2. Dallas 62 wins
3. Lakers: 68 wins (I just think with Odom, Bynum, Phil, a great bench, and Pau Gasol Kobe has almost no chance. Just like any Spurs or Celtic's player. Those three teams are way too stacked for one player to win MVP).
4. Thunder: 65 (Durant will not win unless they tear up the league because Westbrook can be a legit candidate as of now too so you can't have two players).
5. Then it is a toss up who gets the best record between Orlando, New Orleans, and Chicago seeing as though none of those teams have another superstar next to theirs.

Dnovakovic099
01-27-2011, 06:58 PM
Also even though I am a Bulls fan, I don't want Rose to win it. I rather see the NBA just give it to the Spurs big three or the Celtics big 4. They are the ones who deserve it. Manu, Tony, Tim, KG, Paul, Ray, and Rondo all sacrifice their numbers to help their team win. Those are true valuable players. I am not saying Rose, Durant, CP3, Dirk, and Dwight wouldn't do the same, but until they do I can't assume they will. I know it is going to sound dumb of me, but I think it is a bad sign for the Heat that LeBron and Wade are putting up such good numbers together. I think once playoff time rolls around and when the Bulls, Magic, and Celtics start playing really good defenses the Heat won't have enough to win. I mean they could eliminate any team in the playoffs, but they could also lose to Chicago, Orlando, and Boston. While on the other hand I cannot see the Celtics loosing to Chicago or Orlando. The Heat are a talented team that is extremely dangerous, but they aren't a machine like the Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers.

SteBO
01-27-2011, 07:03 PM
Also even though I am a Bulls fan, I don't want Rose to win it. I rather see the NBA just give it to the Spurs big three or the Celtics big 4. They are the ones who deserve it. Manu, Tony, Tim, KG, Paul, Ray, and Rondo all sacrifice their numbers to help their team win. Those are true valuable players. I am not saying Rose, Durant, CP3, Dirk, and Dwight wouldn't do the same, but until they do I can't assume they will. I know it is going to sound dumb of me, but I think it is a bad sign for the Heat that LeBron and Wade are putting up such good numbers together. I think once playoff time rolls around and when the Bulls, Magic, and Celtics start playing really good defenses the Heat won't have enough to win. I mean they could eliminate any team in the playoffs, but they could also lose to Chicago, Orlando, and Boston. While on the other hand I cannot see the Celtics loosing to Chicago or Orlando. The Heat are a talented team that is extremely dangerous, but they aren't a machine like the Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers.
MVP is the most valuable player. Not 3, 4 guys. I get your point though. It was impossible for us to build a complete team with the right fits in one season. We aren't the teams like Boston, L.A., and San Antonio and I completely understand that. Hopefully, Miami can somewhat mask their flaws long enough until they can retool in the offseason.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 05:54 AM
Kobe's been beasting it up lately. his efficiency is off the charts ;)

heatforlife
02-27-2011, 04:24 AM
wow

heatforlife
02-27-2011, 04:24 AM
wow lol

heatforlife
02-27-2011, 04:25 AM
really

heatforlife
02-27-2011, 04:25 AM
yes

heatforlife
02-27-2011, 04:25 AM
lebron is going to win it this year

barreleffact
02-27-2011, 09:25 AM
Now Rose has that team, who by the way has a worse supporting cast than the Magic even without the injuries, have a better record than the Magic. Lets look at the other candidates here.

Howard: Better supporting cast, especially when you look at all the injuries to Noah and Boozer, and the Magic have a worse record so Rose beats him by a slight margin because their records are very close, and the Magic supporting cast is slightly better.



Howard REALLY doent have close to the roster the bulls have. His only upgrade is the SG

PG- Rose far superior to Nelson and arenas
SG- Orl has that one
SF- Deng is easily better than Turk
PF- Boozer compared to Brandon Bass....seriously? Easily Boozer
C- Obviously Howard is better but Noah is a VERY respectable center

6th men- Gibson compared to Arenas/Anderson???? Gibson would start on Orl
Rest of bench- Reddick is better than Korver, but CJ Watson and Ronnie Brewer are a better tandem that anything Orl has and Asik is developing as well.

They dont just win because of Rose at all. His efficiency isnt even that good esp for an MVP candidate.

Please explain how Orl has anywhere near the team Rose has. If you take Rose off the Bulls, they still make the playoffs. No howard easily means lottery for Orl

DR_1
02-27-2011, 01:47 PM
My top six are

1) Derrick Rose
2) Amar'e Stoudemire
3) LeBron James
4) Dwight Howard
5) Kevin Durant
6) Kobe Bryant

hotpotato1092
02-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Here's my list:

5. Chris Paul. He's clearly hurt, yet he's still 98% the player he was healthy. My main criteria for the MVP is how his team would do if he was replaced with an average player at his position (let's say Andre Miller), they clearly wouldn't be a playoff team with Andre Miller. That keeps CP3 securely in my top 5.

4. Dirk Nowitzki. Just look at how badly Dallas played without him, if he hadn't gotten they still might be fighting with the Spurs for the best record in the league. If you replaced him with an average player (or even above average, like David Lee), they'd be a borderline playoff team.

3. LeBron James. Is he the best player in the league? Yes, but is he the most valuable? No. Personally I think he's almost ineligible to win the award, because he signed with Miami so that he wouldn't have to be the most valuable player every night. The whole reason he went to the Heat was so that he could split the spotlight with Wade, he doesn't have to be the MVP every night, and if you aren't the guy carrying your team every night I don't see how you can be the MVP, and if you replaced him with an average player (Wilson Chandler) Miami would still be able to flourish with Wade and Bosh, they may not be a title contender, but they're definitely at least 4th in the east. For those reasons, LeBron can't be the MVP.

2. Blake Griffin. In terms of the replace him with an average player argument, there is nobody as valuable as Blake Griffin. If you put Udonis Haslem or Carl Landry on this team, then they win 10 games all year. Not only the way he plays, but the way he energizes his team and his fans, he is the sole reason the Clippers have ANY relevance. And if Baron Davis would have known this coming into the season and accordingly would have come in shape, they'd be in the playoff hunt right now. But honestly, he has his flaws. He's still not a great defender, and he plays largely on talent rather than skill. In his third year in the league he'll be a legit MVP, but not quite yet. Still, what he's done this year can't be ignored, and even as a rookie he is the second most valuable player in the league.

1. Derrick Rose. There is no player more valuable to his team than Derrick Rose. He plays with no other true stars (no, Boozer doesn't count), he has had his full front court together for like 5 games, they may have the worst shooting guard situation in the league, and he has a rookie coach. Yet here they are, right in the hunt for best record in the east. That is due to Derrick Rose. A lot of PSD'ers are down in him just because they don't like Bulls fans, but that is doing him a disservice. The guy is a monster, he does everything his team needs from him and more, he hits the big shots when they need them but also knows when to kick it out to a teammate (see the Deng three against Miami), if you replaced him with an average point guard like Andre Miller, the Bulls may be able to scrape themselves into the playoffs in a weak bottom of the east, but they'd be quickly swept by Boston or Miami. With Rose? They are a true title contender. If they had Boozer and Noah healthy all season they'd be right up there with San Antonio for best record in the league, and even with the two of them just beginning to gel they are still playing at an extremely high level. He is the league's most valuable player. Oh, and he hasn't even hit his prime yet.

hotpotato1092
02-27-2011, 01:58 PM
Btw, there is no runaway winner, but there are so many qualified candidates, I could write a next 5 about Dwight, Amare, Kobe, Durant and Wade if I wanted to. Personally I like this type of race, no clear cut winner but a ton of deserving candidates. Makes things more fun.

Lake_Show2416
02-27-2011, 02:03 PM
the race is pretty good, it's a plus that my MVP pick from the start of the season is still going strong; Derrick Rose

I think it'll come down to Rose, Lebron, Dirk, Kobe n Durant if he can the 2nd seed

ultimately I think Rose takes it

barreleffact
02-27-2011, 02:09 PM
^ I see it differently. no clear cut winner but a bunch of flawed/lee than deserving candidates

Rose- No efficiency
Lebron- plays with Wade...and bosh
Kobe- not the best record
Dwight- not the best record
Dirk- injury and non rebounding
Amare- no defense and not great record

I like a top 3-5 MVP where each has an outsanding case personally. The way players have been this year, they wouldnt even be top 5 any other...except when nash won

barreleffact
02-27-2011, 02:09 PM
^ I see it differently. no clear cut winner but a bunch of flawed/lee than deserving candidates

Rose- No efficiency
Lebron- plays with Wade...and bosh
Kobe- not the best record
Dwight- not the best record
Dirk- injury and non rebounding
Amare- no defense and not great record

I like a top 3-5 MVP where each has an outsanding case personally. The way players have been this year, they wouldnt even be top 5 any other...except when nash won

PrettyBoyJ
02-27-2011, 02:22 PM
The MVP goes to either Lebron or Rose.. regardless of what happen this summer it didnt take long for the media to jump right back on Lebron bandwagon and start praising him.. But I think everyone is over looking Rose.. He's carried that team all season.. there 2 games behind first and they beat a lot of the top team.. Of course he's gonna get robbed but I think he deserves it more then anyone

Hawkeye15
02-27-2011, 02:40 PM
LeBron once again has the best numbers, and is the most dominant player in the game, but the leftover hate on the Decision, as well as him having help now (the dumbest argument ever, if that is a valid argument, then about 15 MVP's need to be taken from the winner over the past 30 years, but its something that will effect the outcome regardless), as well as the media's complete infatuation with Rose make this a closer race than it should be.

My list, right now:

1. LeBron
2. Paul
3. Rose
4. Dirk
5. Kobe


I won't be upset if Rose gets it, I love the kid. But LeBron is the best player in the NBA again. But if Shaq only has 1, it goes to show how much weight we should really put into caring about the award.

Tkking87
02-27-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm a knick fan but I think it's ganna b drose

Raph12
02-27-2011, 03:09 PM
Anyone saying Dwight has a better supporting cast than Rose is delusional, in what planet is Noah-Boozer-Deng-Korver-Brewer-Watson-etc coached by Thibideau (the defensive coach for the Boston Celtics) better than Nelson-JRich-Turk-Bass-Redick-Anderson-etc coached by SVG (the Master of Panic)?...

Avenged
02-27-2011, 03:28 PM
It's only close because Lebron went to a team with 2 stars.. if he hadn't, he would be the unanimous #1.

barreleffact
02-27-2011, 03:33 PM
LeBron once again has the best numbers, and is the most dominant player in the game, but the leftover hate on the Decision, as well as him having help now (the dumbest argument ever, if that is a valid argument, then about 15 MVP's need to be taken from the winner over the past 30 years, but its something that will effect the outcome regardless), as well as the media's complete infatuation with Rose make this a closer race than it should be.

My list, right now:

1. LeBron
2. Paul
3. Rose
4. Dirk
5. Kobe


I won't be upset if Rose gets it, I love the kid. But LeBron is the best player in the NBA again. But if Shaq only has 1, it goes to show how much weight we should really put into caring about the award.

Interesting to see you have Paul but no Dwight

hotpotato1092
02-27-2011, 03:35 PM
Nobody is questioning that LeBron is the best player, but it's obvious that he isn't the most valuable, which is the award. Take him off the Heat and they still might be be a top 4 seed in the east, take any of the other candidates off their teams and they likely don't make the playoffs. It's not just about having help, it's about having so much help that they are no longer as valuable as other players with less.

Raph12
02-27-2011, 03:54 PM
LeBron once again has the best numbers, and is the most dominant player in the game, but the leftover hate on the Decision, as well as him having help now (the dumbest argument ever, if that is a valid argument, then about 15 MVP's need to be taken from the winner over the past 30 years, but its something that will effect the outcome regardless), as well as the media's complete infatuation with Rose make this a closer race than it should be.

My list, right now:

1. LeBron
2. Paul
3. Rose
4. Dirk
5. Kobe


I won't be upset if Rose gets it, I love the kid. But LeBron is the best player in the NBA again. But if Shaq only has 1, it goes to show how much weight we should really put into caring about the award.

For someone who completely flies off the handle when talking about Love's outstanding stats despite playing on the worst team in the conference, you show no love for the player with the best overall stats in the league: DWIGHT SUPERMAN HOWARD...

D12: 26.5PER .617TS% .597EFG% 21.7RB% 5.9AST% 1.8STL% 4.6BLK% 15.3TO% 113ORTG 94DRTG 0.241WS48

LBJ: 26.7PER .580TS% .521EFG% 11.3RB% 35.7AST% 2.1STL% 1.3BLK% 13.9TO% 114ORTG 101DRTG 0.235WS48

Rose: 23.1PER .540TS% .483EFG% 6.7RB% 40.4AST% 1.4STL% 1.3BLK% 13.2TO% 111ORTG 103DRTG 0.190WS48

Dwight has better stats than any player in the league, including Lebron, how did you manage to not include him and you have guys like Paul, Rose, Dirk and Kobe ahead of him?