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View Full Version : The Case for Nash and Hill



sunnydayin'zona
01-21-2011, 01:35 AM
I just posted this in the suns forum. I want to see what other NBA posters have to say about it. Take the perspective of a suns fan, then take the perspective of an objective nba fan. I wrote it to an audience of suns fans, though. So keep that in mind.
Don't bother moving it. Its already in the suns forum. If it needs to go, just close it please.

Long post, but I put a lot of thought and time into it. It is definitely

I want to point out an important logical fallacy in our perception of the careers of hill and nash. and maybe carter a bit, but less so since he isn't that old and he relied on his athleticism most of his career.

MINUTES PLAYED.

I want to point out our definition of age in basketball terms. TMac and Jermaine O'Neal and Kobe and Dirk aren't as old as Nash, and Kobe even relies on athleticism more (in his career, not as much now), but all have more minutes played over their career than Steve Nash and Grant Hill. Though, contrary to that fact, we still see franchises looking to build around these guys (Dirk, TD, Kobe, Boston Big 3, ect.). These top of the league franchises don't just have them on the roster, build around these guys.

Fun fact, Jason Kidd relied on a his athleticism more than Nash (though still not very much so) throughout his career, and he is still the starting PG on a contender while having 40% more minutes played than nash's career number, and does not take care of his body as well as nash. FORTY PERCENT. I didn't even know there was that much of a difference between the two.

Though Jason Kidd is a good reference point, he is not elite anymore. There are a few examples, however, of elite players whos teams build around them.

For example, who's the current best team in the league? We can probably agree that the spurs(it kills me to say, yet again) are the best so far this year. These spurs are still built around TD, are they not? He's played an entire seasons worth of minutes more than nash, and is a big man who has been landing huge weight on his knees guarding huge men all during his career.

Who's the current second best team in the league? Probably the celtics. Even more reliant on old guys than the spurs, the celtics are build around FOUR of their starters, all of which having more minutes than nash and hill. Lets see, when did this celtics dynasty get built? well, they decided to build around their big 3 about 4 seasons ago if i remember correctly, right? That would mean that KG and Ray Allen both had more minutes in their career than nash and hill have now. again, KG has been hard on his body his entire career because of his style of play and intensity.

Third best team? Arguably the lakers, since they are the defending champs. Built around Kobe, yes? Gasol? We can probably agree those two are the main components at the moment. Maybe fisher too. Lamar Odom? Artest? Kobe would have had the same number of minutes over his career as nash did when they acquired gasol, if I'm correct. Gasol and Fisher are no rookies either. Though not as high as some of the other guys mentioned, all of those guys are wayyy up there in CMP as well. We know how LO treats his body, Artest as well. Artest relies on his physicality as much as anybody really can.

Dallas? Dirk and Kidd. Terry, too. All with more minutes played than Nash and Hill.

My point is, why not build around Nash and Hill for a few more years? Can we not try to pull of a Gasol trade of our own? Or try to pull of a robbery like the celtics did to build their big 3? Or tweak our current roster to be fantastic like the spurs? The spurs did absolutely nothing except for build chemistry to change from being a first round exit shutout team (at the hands of the suns) to the best team in the league.

Both nash and hill have said that they want to be here to end their careers, and both have said they have no plans of retiring for several more years. Both have said they would play into their 40s.

Nash: nash didn't really play tons of minutes a game early in his career because he didn't start right away, and didn't play starters minutes until his third year. and he didn't play 35 mpg until his fifth year. he also doesn't rely on athleticism for his play, he relies on skill. and we all know he keeps his body in great shape, he's probably one of the most fit people in the league. Look at the Career Minutes Played list and tell me why we cant continue to build around nash and hill. maybe carter, too, though not as much so for the reason i stated before. He is a leader. And he makes everybody around him better, at least playing up to their potential. He is at least a top 5 point guard in the league. What do we pay him for all of this? Around 10 million per year. And i bet he wont ask for much come time for his new contract in two years.

Hill: was out for a long time due to his injuries, but these days he looks as healthy as anybody in the league. He's on his third (or fourth?) straight game of 20+ ppg, and he has approached triple double on several occasions this year. Not to mention, he's our best defender. He is a leader and an inspirational player. Oh, and you know what we pay for all of this? If i remember correctly, its around 2-3 million per year.

If anybody can be a john stockton, aging like a fine wine, its nash and maybe hill. They are our two best players right now, and neither is showing signs of aging as we both know.

WE CAN STILL BUILD WITH WHAT WE HAVE. We have 2 first round picks this year, a huge expiring coming off the books if we buy him out (or trade him to a team that needs the expiring). We have expendable young talent at the wing, center, and maybe even point guard positions. We don't have any really bad contracts. We just acquired a legitimate rebounding and defensive minded center, who with consistency could become the defensive leader we haven't had in a long time.

despite their ages, grant hill and steve nash are playing fantastic and finding the fountain of youth because neither of them have been playing consistent minutes since they were drafted.

We can still build for the next year or two and plan to contend if we play our cards right. With the new CBA coming, we could be at a huge advantage if we choose to build around nash, hill, gortat, and dudley for a few more years. All of those guys have reasonable contracts and reasonable future contract demands. This, with the new CBA, could absolutely allow us to take advantage of a team that has contracts that put them too far over the cap to keep their players. Suppose a team like miami or orlando or atlanta gets screwed by the huge long contracts they have, they need to get rid of somebody, no?

Atlanta cannot possibly sustain all of their big contracts if there is a new lower cap. Perfect time to go get josh smith, right?

What about a team like Chicago or OKC or Memphis or LA(Clippers) that will need to resign their young star players to max contracts in a few years?

Can OKC really keep durant and westbrook's max's while signing ibaka and green and harden and thabo too?

Will donald sterling really want to give jordan, gordon, and griffin the big contracts that they will deserve while still having baron davis' contract?

Will Golden State's soon-to-be-new owner want to keep a bunch of long overpaid contracts to guys like monta and biedrins when they have to resign their future in curry and keep lee?

Can minnesota manage to pay all of their young studs in the next few years?

Philly will need to firesale brand and iggy soon, especially with the attendance they have.

Sacramento can afford to keep all of their young bigs as well as reke, in addition to trying to improve.

What team will not have to get rid of any players because of an incoming hard cap? What team will have cap space to take on one of these players? Who's core players are signed to contracts perfect for the new CBA? The Phoenix Suns.

We may suck for a year, but we are in a perfect position to take advantage of the new CBA and the lockout. Look for us to have the biggest offseason splash, be it a blockbuster trade or a huge sign, when the CBA is settled. Maybe that is why we have the FO we have.

There will never be a better opportunity for us to pull of a trade robbery

So my final question: WHY NOT? We are in a great position for the future without trading Nash and Hill. We may suck this season, but there is bright hope ahead suns fans! I can see the light!

This website:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_active.html

Rank Player MP
1. Jason Kidd 45405
2. Kevin Garnett 42705
3. Shaquille O'Neal 41862
4. Ray Allen 39405
5. Kobe Bryant 38828
6. Tim Duncan 36813
7. Juwan Howard 36206
8. Dirk Nowitzki 34840
9. Paul Pierce 34369
10. Antawn Jamison32940
11. Steve Nash 32920
12. Vince Carter 32607
13. Mike Bibby 32432
14. Andre Miller 32336
15. Grant Hill 31710
16. Shawn Marion 31509
17. Jason Terry 31021
18. Ben Wallace 30718
19. Rashard Lewis 30547
20. Chauncey Billups30534
21. Jerry Stackhouse 29405
22. Tracy McGrady 29019
23. Lamar Odom 28341
24. Elton Brand 28117
25. Derek Fisher 28109
26. Antonio McDyess 27322
27. Richard Hamilton 27154
28. Baron Davis 27084
29. Joe Johnson 27032
30. Joe Smith 26995
31. Marcus Camby 26661
32. Peja Stojakovic 26460
33. Kurt Thomas 25307
34. Jason Richardson 24941
35. Al Harrington 24908
36. Ron Artest 24878
37. Pau Gasol 24873
38. Jermaine O'Neal 24757
39. Richard Jefferson 24277
40. Shane Battier 24192
41. Brad Miller 24052
42. Stephen Jackson 23997
43. LeBron James 23668
44. Tony Parker 23446
45. Erick Dampier 23392
46. James Posey 23085
47. Jason Williams 23060
48. Jamal Crawford 23049
49. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 22580
50. Mike Miller 22511

Bruno
01-21-2011, 01:55 AM
Wow. Hard to imagine that Kidd has logged over 12,000 minutes more than Nash. How strange that Nash has so few minutes played compared to his peers.

While I totally agree that CMP is an important way of looking at "basketball age", ultimately we are only human, and aging is inevitable. With that being said, Nash could be the "youngest" 36 year old the league. He turns 37 next month. I don't see why PHO doesn't try to get him more help, unless they get an offer for him they can't refuse.

Phoenix still has lots of potential, it's just that everyone else is SO good. The league is really top heavy. For Phoenix to be legitimate contenders they need an all-star caliber big. I dont know who you guys could grab?
Great post, you mention a lot of stats and facts I wasn't aware of.

sunnydayin'zona
01-21-2011, 02:08 AM
Wow. Hard to imagine that Kidd has logged over 12,000 minutes more than Nash. How strange that Nash has so few minutes played compared to his peers.

While I totally agree that CMP is an important way of looking at "basketball age", ultimately we are only human, and aging is inevitable. With that being said, Nash could be the "youngest" 36 year old the league. He turns 37 next month. I don't see why PHO doesn't try to get him more help, unless they get an offer for him they can't refuse.

Phoenix still has lots of potential, it's just that everyone else is SO good. The league is really top heavy. For Phoenix to be legitimate contenders they need an all-star caliber big. I dont know who you guys could grab?
Great post, you mention a lot of stats and facts I wasn't aware of.

I fell on those stats and facts by accident, I just kept going with it. But its crazy that people always compare Nash and Hill's age with Shaq and Kidd, but there is almost a 4-6 year playing difference between the pairs.

And I do agree that actual age in years does make a difference, there is no sign that nash or hill are declining. Both are having, statistically, their best years in a few years. Well, nash is having about what he had the last few, same as his mvp years.

goblazers7
01-21-2011, 02:28 AM
Scary how lebrons on that list at 26.(rhyme)

dodie53
01-21-2011, 03:43 AM
trade nash and hill to a contender