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View Full Version : Why Don't They Put Dwight Howard in the Same Position as Amare?



Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 07:32 PM
I watch a lot of Magic games and Knick games and when you compare Dwight and Amare's games there's a lot of similarities. Obviously Amare is an outside threat but beyond that neither has a lot of fundamental back to basket moves, both are freakishly athletic, and both can outrun most bigs in the league. The difference? Amare lives off the pick and roll. They get him the ball on the move where all he has to do is catch and let his athleticism do the rest. Nash was the master of it, and even Felton has figured it out.

Can Orlando not do the same thing? Why in the world don't they do that instead of throwing him the ball on the block like he's Patrick Ewing? When you have someone that can jump like that all you have to do is pick and roll and just lob it at the rim, either he'll get it or get fouled. Am I missing something?

Evolution23
01-18-2011, 07:38 PM
Actually Amare doesn't rely only on the pick and roll.. I dont think you watch Knick games casue you would see that he creats his own shot most of the times.

steveshane67
01-18-2011, 07:39 PM
amares offensive skills >>>>>> dwights. there are a lot of athletic big guys out there, but only a few as skilled as amare

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 07:43 PM
Actually Amare doesn't rely only on the pick and roll.. I dont think you watch Knick games casue you would see that he creats his own shot most of the times.

I watch. Amare catches and goes one on one a lot as well but I would say the majority of what he does comes from pick and roll and pick and pop. Actually when he just catches and goes for it he has a tendency to force it, he's most efficient from the pick and roll.

Evolution23
01-18-2011, 07:44 PM
I watch. Amare catches and goes one on one a lot as well but I would say the majority of what he does comes from pick and roll and pick and pop. Actually when he just catches and goes for it he has a tendency to force it, he's most efficient from the pick and roll.

I wouldn't say the majority of his shots come from a pick and roll but some do

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 07:49 PM
I wouldn't say the majority of his shots come from a pick and roll but some do


Ok I'll put it like this when you face Amare, either when he was in Phoenix or now, you knew that you were going to see pick and roll for a good portion of the game until you proved you could stop it. Its basically his bread and butter, damn near gauranteed score or foul.

What Im saying is I watch Orlando play and they might get Dwight on the move like that a couple times a game, and its always a dunk or a foul. Im not saying they should do it every play but they should definitely use it more.

Storch
01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Amare's offensive abilities is way greater than Howards. He has better ball handling and most importantly he has a very reliable jumpshot. Case closed.

cargobox
01-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Amar'e has better ball handling

NYsFinest
01-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Ok I'll put it like this when you face Amare, either when he was in Phoenix or now, you knew that you were going to see pick and roll for a good portion of the game until you proved you could stop it. Its basically his bread and butter, damn near gauranteed score or foul.

What Im saying is I watch Orlando play and they might get Dwight on the move like that a couple times a game, and its always a dunk or a foul. Im not saying they should do it every play but they should definitely use it more.

The fact that Amar'e has a great 15-18 footer and can create off the dribble opens up the pick and roll.

dtmagnet
01-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Amare's offense is better in every way, he just has better hands and skills than Dwight.

n83417
01-18-2011, 08:03 PM
I think people are missing the point. Did anyone bother reading? If you have the ability to both read, and comprehend, you would see that the point was to see why Orlando did not, and if they could, run Howard through more pick and roll type plays.

People are so quick to compare people, and defend one player, when that was not the point, whatsoever.

sunsfan88
01-18-2011, 08:04 PM
I watch a lot of Magic games and Knick games and when you compare Dwight and Amare's games there's a lot of similarities. Obviously Amare is an outside threat but beyond that neither has a lot of fundamental back to basket moves, both are freakishly athletic, and both can outrun most bigs in the league. The difference? Amare lives off the pick and roll. They get him the ball on the move where all he has to do is catch and let his athleticism do the rest. Nash was the master of it, and even Felton has figured it out.

Can Orlando not do the same thing? Why in the world don't they do that instead of throwing him the ball on the block like he's Patrick Ewing? When you have someone that can jump like that all you have to do is pick and roll and just lob it at the rim, either he'll get it or get fouled. Am I missing something?
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Howard is an awful FT shooter, Amare is not.

Plus when Nash ran the PnR with Amare, Amare would have to shoot the jumper 50% of the time because teams rarely let him "roll" often. Dwight can't shoot at all.

Its best to have Dwight just sit in the post cause he's a good rebounder, which Amare is not, so there will be many offensive rebound opportunities as well as a go to scorer in the post.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 08:08 PM
I watch a lot of Magic games and Knick games and when you compare Dwight and Amare's games there's a lot of similarities. Obviously Amare is an outside threat but beyond that neither has a lot of fundamental back to basket moves, both are freakishly athletic, and both can outrun most bigs in the league. The difference? Amare lives off the pick and roll. They get him the ball on the move where all he has to do is catch and let his athleticism do the rest. Nash was the master of it, and even Felton has figured it out.

Can Orlando not do the same thing? Why in the world don't they do that instead of throwing him the ball on the block like he's Patrick Ewing? When you have someone that can jump like that all you have to do is pick and roll and just lob it at the rim, either he'll get it or get fouled. Am I missing something?


Actually, no.

The BIGGEST difference is that Amare at least has some average dribble (at least compared to centers). Dwight does NOT have that, so the only difference is the pick and roll.

EDIT:

Oh, and forgot to say, but Amare has a damn good outside shot. Out of the 10 or so field goals he makes a game, 4 or 5 of them are from the outside iso. He catches it, stares his man down and puts up the shot quickly...from around 18 feet.

Honestly, he only gets like 2 to 4 pick and roll baskets per game. And he has like 1 or 2 in which he drove to the basket and by his guy after getting the ball (and setting, but instead of taking the shot) at around the 18 ft range.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 08:11 PM
Amare has more skills than Dwight but he also gets a lot of different looks. They also get him for a couple of running the floor dunks as well where he just outruns the other big. Orlando doesn't do a lot of that either.

The fact that Dwight is less skilled one on one than Amare emphasizes the fact even more that they need to mix up more. They pretty much throw it down there and just spot up on the perimeter. Im amazed he scores as much as he does!

Raps08-09 Champ
01-18-2011, 08:17 PM
I think people are missing the point. Did anyone bother reading? If you have the ability to both read, and comprehend, you would see that the point was to see why Orlando did not, and if they could, run Howard through more pick and roll type plays.

People are so quick to compare people, and defend one player, when that was not the point, whatsoever.


Well if you read, he claims that most of Amare's offense is off pick and roll. Which these people are saying not to be true since Amare's 4-5 shots made are about 14-20 feet away.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 08:18 PM
The fact that Amar'e has a great 15-18 footer and can create off the dribble opens up the pick and roll.


I think people are missing the point. Did anyone bother reading? If you have the ability to both read, and comprehend, you would see that the point was to see why Orlando did not, and if they could, run Howard through more pick and roll type plays.

People are so quick to compare people, and defend one player, when that was not the point, whatsoever.

Sorry you didn't understand what the people were saying.

Its that DWIGHT and Orlando can't run the pick and roll with him.

Why? Well, look at NY Finest post.

Amare's driving ability, much better dribbling, and outside shot allows him to get his man in proper position for the pick and being able to move with the ball allows him to miss charges and get to the basket.

That is what we've all been saying. We answered indirectly. We stated how it is done here and how Dwight can't. Its not that we're trying to glorify Amare. Its that we are telling the original poster that Dwight and Amare aren't close enough in offensive skillset to allow Dwight and the magic to complete the pick and roll.

PrettyBoyJ
01-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Amare has more skills than Dwight but he also gets a lot of different looks. They also get him for a couple of running the floor dunks as well where he just outruns the other big. Orlando doesn't do a lot of that either.

The fact that Dwight is less skilled one on one than Amare emphasizes the fact even more that they need to mix up more. They pretty much throw it down there and just spot up on the perimeter. Im amazed he scores as much as he does!

Amare's skill set is way pass the level that Dwight is on.. Amare has a different moves in his arsenal.. He's not a traditional big man but who is now a days?.. He can face up beat you off the dribble get 15-18 ft jumper, maybe knock down a 3 every now and then.. And a majority of Amare's points come off of him creating for himself not just running the pick and roll

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Let me be perfectly clear: a lot of the time Amare comes down he is involved in some sort of pick activity. Sometimes pick and roll. Sometimes pick and pop. Sometimes he's just setting a pick and getting a mismatch because of the switch. Sometimes he sets a pick and they pay so much attention to him they leave Gallo or Wilson open for a 3.

They have him doing different things.

Dwight Howard for the most part comes down and runs from one side of the paint to the other side with his hands up, similar to the old Shaq. He's not Shaq.

That is my main point

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 08:26 PM
2 reasons:
1- Nobody would come out to guard Dwight. So what is the purpose?
2- Dwight can't handle the ball well enough to put it on the floor and penetrate.

They may appear similar, but their games are anything but similar

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 08:34 PM
Am I being led to believe that Dwight is currently being utilized in the best position to score? That if he set a pic and you lobbed it at the rim he would not slam it or get fouled? Even if he misses the freethrow perhaps putting the other team in the penalty early?

Raps08-09 Champ
01-18-2011, 08:43 PM
Let me be perfectly clear: a lot of the time Amare comes down he is involved in some sort of pick activity. Sometimes pick and roll. Sometimes pick and pop. Sometimes he's just setting a pick and getting a mismatch because of the switch. Sometimes he sets a pick and they pay so much attention to him they leave Gallo or Wilson open for a 3.

They have him doing different things.

Dwight Howard for the most part comes down and runs from one side of the paint to the other side with his hands up, similar to the old Shaq. He's not Shaq.

That is my main point


He gets his points off dunks anyways so it would really make a difference.

At least the way they run their offense now, they also have the option of going for the outside shot.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-18-2011, 08:46 PM
Am I being led to believe that Dwight is currently being utilized in the best position to score? That if he set a pic and you lobbed it at the rim he would not slam it or get fouled? Even if he misses the freethrow perhaps putting the other team in the penalty early?

The way they are playing is the best position for the TEAM to score.

If htey play a pick and roll with Howard, it takes away the 3 outside shooters they have. Howard will get doubled either way but at least the way they play now, if Howard gets doubled, he can pass it to a shooter. If he did a pick and roll and got doubled, he'd be forcing it with 2 defenders or he'd be in an awkward position to pass leading to turnovers.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 08:57 PM
^Well I get what you're saying. I guess my main thing is when teams finally get the Memo like Doc Rivers and realize: "we don't have to double team this guy" then Orlando is in big trouble. Boston comes right out and says hey let him get 50, we don't care, and tries to limit everyone else. They can do that because they're schemes with him are so predictable.

Then to hear guys like Big Baby and KG say how easy it is to defend him it just pisses me off to no end........

Raps08-09 Champ
01-18-2011, 08:59 PM
^Well I get what you're saying. I guess my main thing is when teams finally get the Memo like Doc Rivers and realize: "we don't have to double team this guy" then Orlando is in big trouble. Boston comes right out and says hey let him get 50, we don't care, and tries to limit everyone else. They can do that because they're schemes with him are so predictable.

Then to hear guys like Big Baby and KG say how easy it is to defend him it just pisses me off to no end........

That's the Magics problem.

Unless Howard can develop into a better offensive player which I've been doubting he can even develop a shot, they'll have to live with that strategy.

Daze9900
01-18-2011, 09:00 PM
Not only everything everyone mentioned about Amare but Dwight if fouled is a liability on pick and roll.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 09:05 PM
Let me be perfectly clear: a lot of the time Amare comes down he is involved in some sort of pick activity. Sometimes pick and roll. Sometimes pick and pop. Sometimes he's just setting a pick and getting a mismatch because of the switch. Sometimes he sets a pick and they pay so much attention to him they leave Gallo or Wilson open for a 3.

They have him doing different things.

Dwight Howard for the most part comes down and runs from one side of the paint to the other side with his hands up, similar to the old Shaq. He's not Shaq.

That is my main point

Let me be clear: a lot of the time that Dwight would try to get a pick at the top of the screen, even if it does nothing (yes, it does happen on the Knicks) , the defender wouldn't even be close to him because they know he

1) won't shoot
2) won't dribble down past him

Do you not understand what we're saying?

Haven't you seen how teams defend Centers that catch the ball at the 3 point line? The defender goes down the the paint.

And even Dwight is athletic, he does NOT have the speed and DEFINITELY does not have the dribble to drive in past a guy that is already in the paint.

NYsFinest
01-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Dwight struggles outside the paint and is not a threat if he is ever given the ball out there, which closes up the lane for a pick and roll because he is always in the paint. Amare's defenders step out when he has the ball outside the paint.

NYsFinest
01-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Jimm explained it perfectly...

jimm120
01-18-2011, 09:11 PM
That's the Magics problem.

Unless Howard can develop into a better offensive player which I've been doubting he can even develop a shot, they'll have to live with that strategy.

And the worst part is that he's had Ewing as a tutor for years...and Ewing was one of the best shooting centers. Hell, Ewing's shot was a tough as nails fade away shot on the sideline. If he can't help...

... and they even had him go to a special mini-camp by Hakeem and still the same problem.


At the end of the day, Dwight is just "another" center offensively, just that he's so athletic and good at going to the rim (without the ball) that he gets all of those points.


And I'm no Howard hater. I think he's the best center in the league and one of my favorite players in the league (I sitll remember rooting for him to win ROY over Okafor).

Y2JOrdan
01-18-2011, 09:12 PM
amare is a better offensive player, DH12 is a better defensive player. DH12 would become a force if he could develop a softer jump shot kinda like Yao Ming.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 09:14 PM
Let me be clear: a lot of the time that Dwight would try to get a pick at the top of the screen, even if it does nothing (yes, it does happen on the Knicks) , the defender wouldn't even be close to him because they know he

1) won't shoot
2) won't dribble down past him

Do you not understand what we're saying?

Haven't you seen how teams defend Centers that catch the ball at the 3 point line? The defender goes down the the paint.

And even Dwight is athletic, he does NOT have the speed and DEFINITELY does not have the dribble to drive in past a guy that is already in the paint.


I get it but IMO the roll option is still there. From what I see on the rare occasions they do run pick and roll he is open but Nelson is too little to see over the defender and get him the open dunk. But then again that may be another issue all in itself....

But pick and roll can be effective in non shooting, non dribbling big men. OKC did a couple of alley oop plays for Serge Ibaka last night doing just that it was actually more of a pick and lob and Dwight is more athletic than him so it could be utilized a bit more is what Im saying.

He's also developed a bit of a bank shot Ive been noticing recently. Quite sure you'd give it to him all night long but hell at least it keeps the defense honest and really the more he shoots it, the more comfortable with it he will get.

NYsFinest
01-18-2011, 09:14 PM
forget Melo an Amare + Dwight front court = a better team than the Heat. The perfect offensive big matched up with the perfect defensive big. :drool:

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 09:26 PM
^Now that I can agree with! lol

John Walls Era
01-18-2011, 09:35 PM
Close the thread...

Amare can actually shoot jumpers and get to the basket on his own. I've never seen Dwight do that.

JasonJohnHorn
01-18-2011, 09:36 PM
I can get on board with the fact that they are both very athletic bigs.


And then, I just can't see where you are going. Amare has a great offensive game, can face the basket, create off the dribble, move well without the ball, hit jumpers and post up.


Howard's offence is oldschool back-that-@$$ up, and while he is working on his offensive game, his coach hasn't relly implemented much of it (though I haven't see many Orlando games this season).

On defence they are polar opposites. Howard is a best, in the paint there is not a more dominant defender in the league. The blocks Howard gets are generally in the paint, man to man, or picking up the PG coming in on the pick and roll. Amare doesn't really do either consistently. And when it comes to rebounding... amare is not even anyware in the same league as Amare.

sorry... other than their natural physical gifts, i see very little similarities in the two.

BkOriginalOne
01-18-2011, 09:41 PM
Because Amare is more than a finisher like Howard is.
Amare can knock down the 3 from time to time and Howard will never.
Amare is also a much better ball handler and doesn't need his teammates to create shots for him.
So, putting Howard in the same position as Amare is not only bad for Howard, but for the rest of the team because you take away their 3 point shooting by altering the floor spacing.

llemon
01-18-2011, 09:45 PM
I watch a lot of Magic games and Knick games and when you compare Dwight and Amare's games there's a lot of similarities. Obviously Amare is an outside threat but beyond that neither has a lot of fundamental back to basket moves, both are freakishly athletic, and both can outrun most bigs in the league. The difference? Amare lives off the pick and roll. They get him the ball on the move where all he has to do is catch and let his athleticism do the rest. Nash was the master of it, and even Felton has figured it out.

Can Orlando not do the same thing? Why in the world don't they do that instead of throwing him the ball on the block like he's Patrick Ewing? When you have someone that can jump like that all you have to do is pick and roll and just lob it at the rim, either he'll get it or get fouled. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Amare and Dwight and unbelievably different players.

MagicBucsSox
01-18-2011, 10:05 PM
its b/c Amare has now, and always a damn PG who can get him the DAMN BALL!!
Amare is the best offensive player he's so fluid. But Dwight is by far a better player, and everyone in this forum would take Dwight over him.

thekmp211
01-18-2011, 10:11 PM
the problems with the idea have been well documented, but i still think the OP has a point. why not try and use dwights athletic ability on the offensive end as opposed to posting him up, when he struggles with that part of his game?

it's fair.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 10:32 PM
I get it but IMO the roll option is still there. From what I see on the rare occasions they do run pick and roll he is open but Nelson is too little to see over the defender and get him the open dunk. But then again that may be another issue all in itself....

But pick and roll can be effective in non shooting, non dribbling big men. OKC did a couple of alley oop plays for Serge Ibaka last night doing just that it was actually more of a pick and lob and Dwight is more athletic than him so it could be utilized a bit more is what Im saying.

He's also developed a bit of a bank shot Ive been noticing recently. Quite sure you'd give it to him all night long but hell at least it keeps the defense honest and really the more he shoots it, the more comfortable with it he will get.

you seem to forget that NOT EVEN the "pick" aspect of the equation is not feasible unless the opposing coach is ******** or the player makes a mistake (much more likely).

the coach will always tell the player to go under the screen or to just not persue Howard to the outside. So, not even the pick can be set.



And pick and rolls that start near the rim and near the paint (not talking about the Key or free throw line...lower) just don't work.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 10:34 PM
forget Melo an Amare + Dwight front court = a better team than the Heat. The perfect offensive big matched up with the perfect defensive big. :drool:

like I said in a previous post, I've always liked Dwight.

And to me, the "dream team" would have been Wade(or Lebron...but wanted Wade more) in 2010 and Dwight in 2012.

jimm120
01-18-2011, 10:37 PM
its b/c Amare has now, and always a damn PG who can get him the DAMN BALL!!
Amare is the best offensive player he's so fluid. But Dwight is by far a better player, and everyone in this forum would take Dwight over him.

Dude. This isn't about Dwight being a better player.


I don't think I've seen ANYONE say that Dwight is NOT the better player.

We're talking about instituting the pick and roll in the Magic's system so Dwight can be more revelant. Well, "we" aren't talking about that. Only one person is. Everyone else has just pretty much debunked that.


the problems with the idea have been well documented, but i still think the OP has a point. why not try and use dwights athletic ability on the offensive end as opposed to posting him up, when he struggles with that part of his game?

it's fair.

Yeah, but the Pick and roll is NOT the answer.

And I just feel that Stan Van gundy has felt that the level of offensive output by a Dwight focused system would be less beneficial for the team than the current system.

Gilly1254
01-18-2011, 10:43 PM
I really don't watch many knicks games but I do watch alot of Magic games and Dwight alot of the times is doubled team, and only a few teams play 1-on-1 against him. Now I'm sure Amare is doubled teamed often but like I said I don't watch many Knicks games.

Amare can actually dribble and has a great mid range jumper... To those who sway Dwight can only dunk it obviously arent watching many Magic games. Dwights game continues to improve and isnt close to his ceiling yet. He's been shooting a jumper and its becoming more consistent timmy Duncan like (not nearly as good). It's just Amare and Dwight have completely different games even though they are similar players. Hate to agree with MagicBucksSox since i've been defending Jameer but I'm starting to agree if he had a better point guard Dwight would get better passes when hes ready to score.

Raph12
01-19-2011, 12:30 AM
Dwight doesn't have someone like that, Hedo is the closest to someone who could get him the ball at the right time off the pnr, if he had a PG like CP3, Nash, D-Will, etc... You'd see more of those type of plays.

mttwlsn16
01-19-2011, 12:49 AM
I watch a lot of Magic games and Knick games and when you compare Dwight and Amare's games there's a lot of similarities. Obviously Amare is an outside threat but beyond that neither has a lot of fundamental back to basket moves, both are freakishly athletic, and both can outrun most bigs in the league. The difference? Amare lives off the pick and roll. They get him the ball on the move where all he has to do is catch and let his athleticism do the rest. Nash was the master of it, and even Felton has figured it out.

Can Orlando not do the same thing? Why in the world don't they do that instead of throwing him the ball on the block like he's Patrick Ewing? When you have someone that can jump like that all you have to do is pick and roll and just lob it at the rim, either he'll get it or get fouled. Am I missing something?

all i got out of this is u have some beat *** chick as your sig.....

MagicBucsSox
01-19-2011, 12:55 AM
Amar'e is a far better offensive force but i think Dwight could close the gap(he'll never catch amare's game) if he got got a real pg like Amar'e has always had the luxury of. then again Dwight can get as good as Amar'e one day. there was once a time amare was all dunks like dwight is(was)