PDA

View Full Version : NBA Execs: Melo is "one-dimentional".



dnewguy
01-18-2011, 04:00 PM
Anthony lacks most of the intangibles necessary to be a great player, they say. And this is why the Nets, or whoever gets him for the long-term and wants to win a championship, are advised to find another All-Star teammate for him, if they don't already have one. The scouts all agree Anthony just doesn't have "it" to be the focal point of a contender, to motivate teammates and to impact games other than scoring

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/shaun_powell/01/18/melo-franchise/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1


I am not sure what the Execs are referencing, but out of 30 teams, it seems only 2 (Nuggets and Nets) are really high on him, the Knicks, Bulls and Mavs will like to have him but not at a hefty price.

Draco
01-18-2011, 04:03 PM
tell us something we don't already know...

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 04:08 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

cargobox
01-18-2011, 04:09 PM
Just let this trade happen, ugh. It's really dumb and stupid

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 04:12 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
tell us something we don't already know...

This.... Although I will say Carmelo has shown he "can" play Defense in the Olympics. Denver is so anti-defense I am sure he is just going witht he flow of the team. Time will tell but I do believe I have seen stats, with the game on the line, and out of all the stars Carmelo had the highest percentage of Shots Taken vs Shots Made. The kid was dynamite at Syracuse Offensively and Defensively so I believe he is capable. It just seems Carmelo just has to be pissed off these days to give the 110% which I guess can set in once you've pretty much figured your team isnt going anywhere unless your the Lakers, Spurs, or Celtics. Who knows..

Hustlenomics
01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
Melo is a problem I wouldn't sleep on him

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 04:14 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

hahahahaha

Mr.ATLHawks
01-18-2011, 04:16 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

Diverse offensively, but on Defense and Hustling Lebron is head and shoulders above Melo

abe_froman
01-18-2011, 04:16 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

probably.in all fairness most are fans of teams that are linked to teams in the trade rumors

its quite sad actually

Ebbs
01-18-2011, 04:18 PM
Come play with Dirk in Dallas for a fair price!

LayZbone
01-18-2011, 04:21 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

jesus...

kntresistheheat
01-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

WOW:speechless:are you serious??:confused:

kblo247
01-18-2011, 04:24 PM
hahahahaha

Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 04:24 PM
Diverse offensively, but on Defense and Hustling Lebron is head and shoulders above Melo

LeBron will go down as one of the top (if not the top) passing SF's to ever play as well.
The dude is a pure LeBron hater. Period.

bovice163
01-18-2011, 04:25 PM
Tell us something we didn't already know. It's funny because there were some guys on PSD who were wondering why teams won't trade half their rosters and an assload of picks for a guy like Melo. Here is why straight from the horses mouth.

dakman1985
01-18-2011, 04:27 PM
We all forget how good the Nuggets were the last two years. A couple in-bound plays away from the finals two years ago. And last year they were top 3 in the west before george got cancer and K-mart had yet another knee issue.

kblo247
01-18-2011, 04:28 PM
LeBron will go down as one of the top (if not the top) passing SF's to ever play as well.
The dude is a pure LeBron hater. Period.

Larry Bird. LeBron can pass but that part in parenthesis is definitely Bird as he carved teams up in half court sets with the pass and not holding/over dribbling the ball to do it.

blahblahyoutoo
01-18-2011, 04:28 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

wha???

MJ-BULLS
01-18-2011, 04:30 PM
not really surprised. Carmelo Anthony isn't even a top 10 player. But I would love to have Carmelo Anthony on my team.

smith&wesson
01-18-2011, 04:30 PM
so which player in this league doesnt need another all star to win a ship ??

tim duncan ?? manu and parker

kobe ?? shaq & gasol

wade ? shaq

garnet ? pierce ? allen ?

jordan ?? pippen


so in other words, this article could be about any one... in this league you need more then one star and a very strong suporting cast to be a contender. no one player can do it alone.

lebron tried for 7 years didnt he ? and then got swept in the finals the one time he did make it by the spurs.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-18-2011, 04:31 PM
probably.in all fairness most are fans of teams that are linked to teams in the trade rumors

its quite sad actually

I guess that would depend ont he contender. Throw him to orlando then yes he is the number 1 (Sorry D.Howard your offense isnt there yet). On Boston he could be due to his younger age, but that team would never take him as they are too big on TEAM play which Carmelo has yet to learn the concept of.

BALLER71
01-18-2011, 04:32 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

Show me a 6'9 250 pound player, right now, that can run an offense like Lebron and dish the ball like Lebron.

Slimsim
01-18-2011, 04:33 PM
Maybe Denver would read this article and trade him Even sooner

magichatnumber9
01-18-2011, 04:33 PM
You know why this is hilarious to me? They said the same thing about Paul Pierce before Boston got the big 3. You build the right team around Carmelo and he will **** **** up in this league.

WizFan3
01-18-2011, 04:38 PM
melo just needs to quit bein a drama queen

WickedBadMan
01-18-2011, 04:39 PM
Melo's a *****. He had pretty good crews during his time in Denver and got to the conference finals, like what, once? Jersey is dumb thinking they can gut their team and win with him.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-18-2011, 04:39 PM
You know why this is hilarious to me? They said the same thing about Paul Pierce before Boston got the big 3. You build the right team around Carmelo and he will **** **** up in this league.

Good post. Lets also point out probably the most important denominator here also.."coaching" Not saying Geroge Karl is a bad coach but there are few "championship" coaches out there. I can count them all on one hand (Zen, Doc, Pop, Larry Brown. Riley) other then those 5 who else has a championship ring for a coach? Dont worry PSD i'll wait....

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 04:40 PM
Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

I never said he wasn't more "skilled" (and I am not even sure you can make an argument for that btw). But to say Melo is a better all around player or more versatile is a complete joke.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 04:41 PM
Larry Bird. LeBron can pass but that part in parenthesis is definitely Bird as he carved teams up in half court sets with the pass and not holding/over dribbling the ball to do it.

exactly who I was thinking of.

I think LeBron deserves some time to play with talent, since talent knows how to create better passing lanes than less talent.

Bravo95
01-18-2011, 04:42 PM
Carmelo Anthony isn't even a top 10 player.
Nah he's a Top 10 player but not every player in the Top 10 is ready to be the alpha on a title-winning team.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 04:47 PM
Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

Read that right there Lebron fans... Just because Lebron plays basketball like a linebacker and lowers his head while charging the rim full speed without looking up, and getting an and one call doesn't mean he is a skilled basketball player. It means he is big and fast. Melo obviously has better basketball skills than Lebron. If you believe otherwise then you dont know basketball, ESPN has you brainwashed, or your a "heat fan"...

Knickrocketsfan
01-18-2011, 04:48 PM
not really surprised. Carmelo Anthony isn't even a top 10 player. But I would love to have Carmelo Anthony on my team.

let me gues rose is a top 10 player according to you:rolleyes:. why stop there I know you want to say he's in the top 5:facepalm:

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 04:48 PM
Nah he's a Top 10 player but not every player in the Top 10 is ready to be the alpha on a title-winning team.


See Lebron James.....

AddiX
01-18-2011, 04:50 PM
You don't find a whole lot of teams who win rings with one all star anymore, so I don't really know what the point of this article is?

I mean seriously, Kobe has all time great supporting casts to win a ring, without that he didn;t win jack.

Bron still hasn't won anything, as versatile as he is, he is a terrible outside shooter, and offensively, you can see him disappear in the 4th quarter when teams take away the lane.

Even Duncan had Parker, Manu

Detriot had 4 all stars.

kntresistheheat
01-18-2011, 04:56 PM
See Lebron James.....

You might just win the 'biggest lebron hater' of the year award?

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 04:57 PM
You might just win the 'biggest lebron hater' of the year award?

yea, if hatin is telling the truth.. Then so be it...

kntresistheheat
01-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Read that right there Lebron fans... Just because Lebron plays basketball like a linebacker and lowers his head while charging the rim full speed without looking up, and getting an and one call doesn't mean he is a skilled basketball player. It means he is big and fast. Melo obviously has better basketball skills than Lebron. If you believe otherwise then you dont know basketball, ESPN has you brainwashed, or your a "heat fan"...

Wait, You almost forgot that he almost avg a triple double for his CAREER! He does that while putting his down and closing his eyes. It seems like you don't know crap about basketball.


Lets not make this a Lebron Vs Melo thread or a Lebron hate thread.

Mudvayne91
01-18-2011, 05:02 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

I'm not sure how you meant this cause it could be taken one of two ways. However, if you mean he wasn't or never will be a # 1 on a contender, I'd disagree.

Two years ago when the Nugs made it to the conference finals, I certainly considered us a contender and he was our best player. Heck, if we unloaded Kmart's contract for another great player, I'd consider us contenders again. Alas, that's not the case and Melo's desire to go to NY is stronger than trying to win with us.

But I know what you're saying. This isn't the first time I've heard somewhere along the lines of Melo isn't a guy you'll win a championship around. My days of defending him are over, so I really don't care.

Dol-Fan
01-18-2011, 05:02 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

Billy King?

SteBO
01-18-2011, 05:05 PM
Read that right there Lebron fans... Just because Lebron plays basketball like a linebacker and lowers his head while charging the rim full speed without looking up, and getting an and one call doesn't mean he is a skilled basketball player. It means he is big and fast. Melo obviously has better basketball skills than Lebron. If you believe otherwise then you dont know basketball, ESPN has you brainwashed, or your a "heat fan"...
I sure hope you're not saying Melo is better than LeBron. :crazy:

MJ-BULLS
01-18-2011, 05:06 PM
let me gues rose is a top 10 player according to you:rolleyes:. why stop there I know you want to say he's in the top 5:facepalm:

And yes, rose is a top 10 player. I currently have him number 10.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 05:08 PM
Wait, You almost forgot that he almost avg a triple double for his CAREER! He does that while putting his down and closing his eyes. It seems like you don't know crap about basketball.


Lets not make this a Lebron Vs Melo thread or a Lebron hate thread.

Im not taking anything away from Lebrons numbers. His numbers are awesome. But i actually watch games without being in love with a player. Lebron has great court vision, he knows when to get rid of the ball when he see's double teams coming, so his assists are high. He obviously can bull his way to the hole and score a lot, so he gets his points.And he's like a power forward playing on the perimeter, so he grabs boards.. Like i said, his numbers are there.. But his game will never translate into winning a tittle until he develops some basketball skills.... But remember im not a heat fan, so im not blinded by love.

dtmagnet
01-18-2011, 05:11 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

You mean a number one scoring option? Absolutely he is.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 05:11 PM
I sure hope you're not saying Melo is better than LeBron. :crazy:

Yes,. thats what im saying. Why is Lebron better than Melo? Numbers? Well they are pretty much the same except assists.

hgtiger32
01-18-2011, 05:12 PM
if you put Lebron on the Nugges I guarantee they would be a better team than they are with Melo and probably would've won a Finals

Billups
JR Smith
LeBron
Nene
Birdman

idk their lineup but seriously, Billups and JR Smith would make the wide open shots

Mudvayne91
01-18-2011, 05:15 PM
People also may not realize that Melo gets 1/10th of the star calls that a Lebron or Wade would. The guy gets mugged quite often and refs don't do a damn thing about it. Not sure whether it's because he plays in a "small" market (which I think is crap cause Denver is a top 15 city) or if it's because he always didn't have the nice gleaming reputation that Lebron did.

But the guy doesn't play defense consistently despite being very good at it when he wants to and he can be very selfish at times. I think he is fully capable of being an elite player, but I've only seen that player at times. I don't think this article is too far fetched.

Giraffes Rule
01-18-2011, 05:18 PM
so which player in this league doesnt need another all star to win a ship ??

tim duncan ?? manu and parker

kobe ?? shaq & gasol

wade ? shaq

garnet ? pierce ? allen ?

jordan ?? pippen


so in other words, this article could be about any one... in this league you need more then one star and a very strong suporting cast to be a contender. no one player can do it alone.

lebron tried for 7 years didnt he ? and then got swept in the finals the one time he did make it by the spurs.
The difference with most of those is that the player is the number one option. Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and Jordan were all the number one options in their championship years (Garnett, probably not so much). Carmelo can't be the best player on his team.

Da Knicks
01-18-2011, 05:23 PM
I hope this helps denver cave in, Melo is a very dangerous player.

Avenged
01-18-2011, 05:23 PM
Melo is a good player and has improved in some aspects of the game over the past 2-3 seasons.. He's still not better than Lebron and will most likely never be better than him. Great scorer but like the article says, he lacks the intangibles to be a great player.

Mudvayne91
01-18-2011, 05:26 PM
The difference with most of those is that the player is the number one option. Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and Jordan were all the number one options in their championship years (Garnett, probably not so much). Carmelo can't be the best player on his team.

Again, if it wasn't for a few extremely horrible turnovers including a poor in bound pass, the Nuggets probably beat the Lakers and most likely go on to win a championship. I know there's some what ifs, but it isn't far fetched to say Melo would've won a championship being the best player.

LayZbone
01-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

I don't by that Melo is "FAR better" than Lebron at all those things you just mentioned, especially about his defense. I do agree that he has a clean jump shot, especially in the mid-range. And he is much better as a post up player, which Lebron has been working on a lot this year. But Lebron is a good shooter (not better than Melo, but not far worse either), he actually shoots better from behind the 3pt line. He puts the ball on the floor and gets to the hoop effortlessly, which of course, as you mentioned can be attributed to his athleticism. But you can't just discount his ball handling, ball control, and especially play-making ability when comparing how skilled they each are, by saying he's blessed with better court vision. If there's any 1 area in either of their games where 1 is "FAR better" than the other, it's passing, and that absolutely can't be overlooked when comparing their skills.

At the end of the day, Melo is w/o a doubt one of the most skilled at putting the ball through the hoop in a variety of ways. But everyone jumped on nickdymez back because he said Melo was more versatile than Lebron. We're talking about versatility, and I can't think of anyone in this league who is more versatile than Lebron. The guy is built like a PF, and has the skills of a PG. He can shoot, pass, rebound, defend...I can't think of any weakness to his game other than his post-up game.


If you believe otherwise then you dont know basketball, ESPN has you brainwashed, or your a "heat fan"...

no need to put heat fan in quotation marks. Contrary to popular belief, there are Heat fans on PSD that existed before July 8th, and who have been watching them play since the 90s.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-18-2011, 05:31 PM
The difference with most of those is that the player is the number one option. Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and Jordan were all the number one options in their championship years (Garnett, probably not so much). Carmelo can't be the best player on his team.

Those first 3 championships I think shaq was the #1 option but I could be wrong. Hell even last years championship they went to Kobe in the finals but if you look at those clips from the last seconds wins it was Kobe chucking up a ridiculous shot and Artest, Gasol putting it back in...

GivenGrace
01-18-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm sure the Nets (and Knicks) are'nt looking to acquire him for defensive purposes. He's a top 5 scorer in the league and plays D when he wants to.

Bruno
01-18-2011, 05:33 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

Melo isn't more versatile the LeBron. LeBron is the superior passer, rebounder and team defender. A better pure scorer maybe, and maybe better offensive footwork and shooting but no way more well rounded than LeBron, overall.

Giraffes Rule
01-18-2011, 05:33 PM
Again, if it wasn't for a few extremely horrible turnovers including a poor in bound pass, the Nuggets probably beat the Lakers and most likely go on to win a championship. I know there's some what ifs, but it isn't far fetched to say Melo would've won a championship being the best player.

What ifs don't mean anything.

Knickrocketsfan
01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
And yes, rose is a top 10 player. I currently have him number 10.

kobe
lebron
wade
melo
dirk
Paul
cp3
williams
howard
stat
Durant

rose is somewhere after that

Bruno
01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
if you put Lebron on the Nugges I guarantee they would be a better team than they are with Melo and probably would've won a Finals

Billups
JR Smith
LeBron
Nene
Birdman

idk their lineup but seriously, Billups and JR Smith would make the wide open shots

Won the finals? Subbing LeBron for Carmelo doesn't change a first round exit into a title, IMO.

Rndy
01-18-2011, 05:37 PM
Nah he's a Top 10 player but not every player in the Top 10 is ready to be the alpha on a title-winning team.

How is he a top 10 player? Because ESPN talks about him a lot?

The guy is posting a 448 eFG% superstar my ***.

Avenged
01-18-2011, 05:37 PM
Won the finals? Subbing LeBron for Carmelo doesn't change a first round exit into a title, IMO.

With that lineup, depending on who they face, I'd say a long 2nd round series or potential WCF. Mainly because we've all seen what Lebron can do with a team with not much talent and how far he can take them [NBA Finals]..

CityofChaos
01-18-2011, 05:37 PM
There is absolutely no way Melo is better then Lebron and even LJ haters should know this.

faze38
01-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

Thank u somebody who stated the obvious because nobody can win alone. Not even MJ who had Scottie!

$KnicksAndKobe$
01-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Won the finals? Subbing LeBron for Carmelo doesn't change a first round exit into a title, IMO.

Especially in the West.

Korman12
01-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Won the finals? Subbing LeBron for Carmelo doesn't change a first round exit into a title, IMO.

I think he was referring to the year they went to the WCF

Bravo95
01-18-2011, 05:40 PM
kobe
lebron
wade
melo
dirk
Paul
cp3
williams
howard
stat
Durant

rose is somewhere after that
Yeah that's probably my Top 10 as well, just in a slightly different order.

faze38
01-18-2011, 05:42 PM
The difference with most of those is that the player is the number one option. Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and Jordan were all the number one options in their championship years (Garnett, probably not so much). Carmelo can't be the best player on his team.

Melo can def be number one option on a championship team as long as the right guy is beside him! Side of Amare anyone!

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 05:42 PM
Melo
<10-- 39%
10-15--34.5%
16-23--42%
3--27%
TS%--52

Bron
<10--48%
10-15--35.5%
16-23--42%
3--37%
TS%-58.5%

Melo has a prettier shot no doubt. But he takes too many three's and too many shots period for his inefficiencies.

Just pointing it out to all those who complain Bron is a poor shooter, then try and tell us that Melo is "pure"

Korman12
01-18-2011, 05:43 PM
Melo
<10-- 39%
10-15--34.5%
16-23--42%
3--27%
TS%--52

Bron
<10--48%
10-15--35.5%
16-23--42%
3--37%
TS%-58.5%

Melo has a prettier shot no doubt. But he takes too many three's and too many shots period for his inefficiencies.

Just pointing it out to all those who complain Bron is a poor shooter, then try and tell us that Melo is "pure"

Bam

kblo247
01-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Those first 3 championships I think shaq was the #1 option but I could be wrong. Hell even last years championship they went to Kobe in the finals but if you look at those clips from the last seconds wins it was Kobe chucking up a ridiculous shot and Artest, Gasol putting it back in...


2000 - Shaq took Kobe along for the ride
2001 - That whole team from Shaq to Kobe to Fish to Fox to Horry were dialed in
2002 - Kobe killed the Spurs, Blazers, and Kings while Shaq made the Nets look like they were pre-K ballers
2003 - Kobe was the best by Shaq and Phil's admission
2004 - Kobe took out the best the west had but struggled horribly versus Detroit which was sad because Shaq had struggled by his standards through the West and played well versus Detroit
2008 - they ran through the west with no competition and it bit all of them in the *** when they played Boston
2009 - Kobe was on a mission
2010 - Pau and Ron had those shots that saved Kobe but both played horribly up until those shots put backs in that game while Kobe carried his team. Kobe was also the only Laker to up his play on the road on every series, whereas Pau's numbers went down on the road in every series versus Utah (thank god game 7 was in Staples)

CityofChaos
01-18-2011, 05:47 PM
Melo
<10-- 39%
10-15--34.5%
16-23--42%
3--27%
TS%--52

Bron
<10--48%
10-15--35.5%
16-23--42%
3--37%
TS%-58.5%

Melo has a prettier shot no doubt. But he takes too many three's and too many shots period for his inefficiencies.

Just pointing it out to all those who complain Bron is a poor shooter, then try and tell us that Melo is "pure"

You dont have to look at stats to know that Lebron is more efficient than Melo. Heck, fans should already know that Lebron is a better all around player...

kblo247
01-18-2011, 05:47 PM
Melo
<10-- 39%
10-15--34.5%
16-23--42%
3--27%
TS%--52

Bron
<10--48%
10-15--35.5%
16-23--42%
3--37%
TS%-58.5%

Melo has a prettier shot no doubt. But he takes too many three's and too many shots period for his inefficiencies.

Just pointing it out to all those who complain Bron is a poor shooter, then try and tell us that Melo is "pure"
e also plays for a gunning offense where Chauncey and JR do the same thing. They are told get to the line, get a dunk/layup, or shoot the 3 because the midrange shot is one of the lowest percentage shots by Karl's own admission.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 05:50 PM
e also plays for a gunning offense where Chauncey and JR do the same thing. They are told get to the line, get a dunk/layup, or shoot the 3 because the midrange shot is one of the lowest percentage shots by Karl's own admission.

understood. But Melo continually leads the NBA in shot attempts per 48, so even when you adjust for pace, you have a guy firing away, and firing away on shots he shouldn't be taking many times.
And I am simply refuting the point that Melo is this "pure" scorer when there are better out there. In fact one of the most criticized players in the NBA on this is LeBron, when he is actually a better shooter out there this year, and over his career about the same as Melo.

Can't call one guy good at something and another bad when they are the same at it.

Giraffes Rule
01-18-2011, 05:52 PM
Melo can def be number one option on a championship team as long as the right guy is beside him! Side of Amare anyone!

Amare would still be the best player on the team.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 05:52 PM
You dont have to look at stats to know that Lebron is more efficient than Melo. Heck, fans should already know that Lebron is a better all around player...

judging by this, and any other thread, that isn't the case. Sometimes you just need to stick raw data right in people's faces for them to wake up.

LayZbone
01-18-2011, 05:53 PM
I feel like people like to attribute all of Lebron's numbers and success to his freakish athleticism, as if skill had nothing to do with it. You don't do the things he does without "basketball skills" as you generally like to call it. If you think all Lebron does is "lower his head, and get to the foul line", I don't think you've watched him play enough.

bklynny67
01-18-2011, 05:54 PM
melo just needs to quit bein a drama queen

he's actually not. its the media blowing everything up and people on these boards making a new thread every time Melo takes a *****

kblo247
01-18-2011, 06:01 PM
Melo is a good player and has improved in some aspects of the game over the past 2-3 seasons.. He's still not better than Lebron and will most likely never be better than him. Great scorer but like the article says, he lacks the intangibles to be a great player.

I don't buy this at all.

The fact is he has never had a losing season in Denver despite them playing in the West, having multiple different PGs, and with his bigs constantly injured. The guy is by definition a great player to turn a franchise who had 8 straight losing seasons into a team that has never had a losing season with him regardless of the changes in coaches and personnel around him.

Carmelo's biggest problem is the opposite of LeBron. LeBron grew up playing PG and was when when he entered the league. He adapted to the point forward role because of his body and the fact he can't guard 1s, but he also had to change to fit into Miami. He had to learn how to play off the ball, post up a little bit like he does now, and be willing to take a backseat to Wade every now and then.

Carmelo was never a PG. He was always a scorer and played a wing position. In many ways he is similar to Kobe who was also taught the same in high school and under Del Harris. It wasn't until Phil, Tex, and Harper came to LA that he truly learned how to develop his play making and facilitating skills which he struggled with at times in 2000. Right now Melo has all the actual basic basketball skills in footwork, post work, moving your feet and taking away angles one on one defense without asking for help behind him, and a natural understanding of how to shoot and rebound. With the right coaching and system even at this stage of his career, much like LeBron he can be taught how to facilitate for others.

Melo is a great player. He can be an even better player. There is no debate that LeBron is better and more versatile because he understands how to facilitate an offense, but there is also no debate really that Melo's game is living proof that he works on and refine his basketball skills. A basic change in teaching can do wonders for a player becoming even better as Kobe is living proof of and LeBron has also shown in Miami.

faze38
01-18-2011, 06:03 PM
if you put Lebron on the Nugges I guarantee they would be a better team than they are with Melo and probably would've won a Finals

Billups
JR Smith
LeBron
Nene
Birdman

idk their lineup but seriously, Billups and JR Smith would make the wide open shots

They def wouldn't because LBJ can't play without the ball in his hands and in Denver the ball would be in Billups hands. Also last time I checked Lebron until this year scored a total of 7 buckets against Kobe in an isolation so no way he could stand the heat of the real Kobe D once the playoffs come around! He might have lead the Nuggets to a WCFs but even then he would have gotten to the Lakers and got swept and that was if he was even able to make it past Dallas! SO please stop feeding me that Lebron would have done better with the Nuggets squad. Melo has been beating Lebron since high school so in no way do I think Lebron would make a team built around Melo better. LBJ's team was built around him believe it or not. Nothing but shooters that could open the floor up for him. The funny part is if Melo leaves and the Nuggets fall apart people are going to say it's because Billups is old and not because Melo left. Much like the fans that said the Suns would be fine without Amare. People don't realize that teams are built around players for a reason and that u can't just plug anybody in to fill up their spot. Lucky for the Nuggets tho if they are smart they have a man named J.R. Smith that with a little bit of work can be a true superstar.

Bravo95
01-18-2011, 06:03 PM
2000 - Shaq took Kobe along for the ride
2001 - That whole team from Shaq to Kobe to Fish to Fox to Horry were dialed in
2002 - Kobe killed the Spurs, Blazers, and Kings while Shaq made the Nets look like they were pre-K ballers
2003 - Kobe was the best pwas sad since Shaq had struggled by his standards through the West and played well versus Detroit
2008 - they ran through the west with no competition and it bit all of them in the *** when they played Boston
2009 - Kobe was on a missionlayer by Shaq's own admission
2004 - Kobe was the best playoff player throughout the west and was awful versus the Pistons which
2010 - Pau and Ron had those shots that saved Kobe but both played horribly up until those shots put backs in that game while Kobe carried his team. Kobe was also the only Laker to up his play on the road on every series, whereas Pau's numbers went down on the road in every series versus Utah (thank god game 7 was in Staples)

I agree with this, but imo the turning point came in Game 4 of the 2000 Finals vs Indiana when Kobe basically took over in the 4th (and overtime) after Shaq fouled out.

cheetos185
01-18-2011, 06:04 PM
melo vs lebron argument is stupid i hate lebron also but if both of them were FA obviously i would pick lebron and everyone else out there also yea melo is superstar and probably best scorer in the league but lebron makes his teammates better end of story

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 06:06 PM
Let me get this strait... 23, 8, and 4 isnt good enough to be a top 10 player in the league?
but Deron williams is getting 22, 3,9?? Sounds like more hate than anything in here

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:07 PM
I don't buy this at all.

The fact is he has never had a losing season in Denver despite them playing in the West, having multiple different PGs, and with his bigs constantly injured. The guy is by definition a great player to turn a franchise who had 8 straight losing seasons into a team that has never had a losing season with him regardless of the changes in coaches and personnel around him.

Carmelo's biggest problem is the opposite of LeBron. LeBron grew up playing PG and was when when he entered the league. He adapted to the point forward role because of his body and the fact he can't guard 1s, but he also had to change to fit into Miami. He had to learn how to play off the ball, post up a little bit like he does now, and be willing to take a backseat to Wade every now and then.

Carmelo was never a PG. He was always a scorer and played a wing position. In many ways he is similar to Kobe who was also taught the same in high school and under Del Harris. It wasn't until Phil, Tex, and Harper came to LA that he truly learned how to develop his play making and facilitating skills which he struggled with at times in 2000. Right now Melo has all the actual basic basketball skills in footwork, post work, moving your feet and taking away angles one on one defense without asking for help behind him, and a natural understanding of how to shoot and rebound. With the right coaching and system even at this stage of his career, much like LeBron he can be taught how to facilitate for others.

Melo is a great player. He can be an even better player. There is no debate that LeBron is better and more versatile because he understands how to facilitate an offense, but there is also no debate really that Melo's game is living proof that he works on and refine his basketball skills. A basic change in teaching can do wonders for a player becoming even better as Kobe is living proof of and LeBron has also shown in Miami.


I might add to this, Melo has been given nice roster support throughout his career. Him making the playoffs every year is a testament to that. Kobe missed the playoffs while playing at a level Melo could never attain.

And Melo and LeBron were basically equals as rookies. LeBron has continued to pull away ever since. Its on Melo. Nobody else. If he wants to improve, he will need to make sacrifices and start adding more to his game. He has not done this at a rate that will get him into superstar territory. Others have.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:08 PM
Let me get this strait... 23, 8, and 4 isnt good enough to be a top 10 player in the league?but Deron williams is getting 22, 3,9?? Sounds like more hate than anything in here

its HOW you get those numbers. Not just the numbers.

He is fringe top 10. I have him out of mine currently, he is down a bit this season.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 06:15 PM
Melo is a top tier player but I can't blame him for not being able to beat the Lakers. Two out of the last three years nobody has. Then there were the Spurs who've been doing their thing as well. If he had been on a team in the east with comparable talent Im pretty sure he would've made the finals by now. People have to really understand how competitive the West is and give the guy a break.

Im also of the opinion that had Karl not have had his problems last year it was their best chance to push the Lakers to the limit, this is coming from a Laker fan.

arkanian215
01-18-2011, 06:16 PM
He's one dimensional and hasn't been efficient at doing what he supposedly does best. At least he's pretty darn clutch. If the Nets really need one thing, it's a go to scorer.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:17 PM
Melo is a top tier player but I can't blame him for not being able to beat the Lakers. Two out of the last three years nobody has. Then there were the Spurs who've been doing their thing as well. If he had been on a team in the east with comparable talent Im pretty sure he would've made the finals by now. People have to really understand how competitive the West is and give the guy a break.

Im also of the opinion that had Karl not have had his problems last year it was their best chance to push the Lakers to the limit, this is coming from a Laker fan.

agreed

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 06:18 PM
its HOW you get those numbers. Not just the numbers.

He is fringe top 10. I have him out of mine currently, he is down a bit this season.

wow

Giraffes Rule
01-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Melo is a top tier player but I can't blame him for not being able to beat the Lakers. Two out of the last three years nobody has. Then there were the Spurs who've been doing their thing as well. If he had been on a team in the east with comparable talent Im pretty sure he would've made the finals by now. People have to really understand how competitive the West is and give the guy a break.

Im also of the opinion that had Karl not have had his problems last year it was their best chance to push the Lakers to the limit, this is coming from a Laker fan.

That's one of the criticisms that he has though. Without Karl, that team fell apart. Carmelo doesn't have what it takes to be the leader of a team. I don't think they lost because they were outcoached, I think they lost because they weren't driven enough to win.


wow

You could debate intelligently instead of saying "wow" or accusing people of being haters just because they disagree with you. Or maybe you can't, I don't know.

Bravo95
01-18-2011, 06:25 PM
How is he a top 10 player? Because ESPN talks about him a lot?

The guy is posting a 448 eFG% superstar my ***.
All bs aside, Carmelo is the 3rd or 4th best small forward in the business right now (Lebron and KD for certain). I'm not really into advanced stats, just basing it on what I've seen on the court. Definitely in the Top 10 overall imo.

Jewelz0376
01-18-2011, 06:26 PM
Melo is def one of the best scorers in the league, but my biggest problem with Melo is defense...He has gotten better but is still a an average defender...If Melo wants to take that next step in he needs take as much pride in D as he does in scoring...

If a team does expect to win a title with Melo then they have to have an elite defender opposite of him at the 2...there is no way that should be said about a "franchise player" on a title contending team..

AddiX
01-18-2011, 06:26 PM
Melo is a top tier player but I can't blame him for not being able to beat the Lakers. Two out of the last three years nobody has. Then there were the Spurs who've been doing their thing as well. If he had been on a team in the east with comparable talent Im pretty sure he would've made the finals by now. People have to really understand how competitive the West is and give the guy a break.

Im also of the opinion that had Karl not have had his problems last year it was their best chance to push the Lakers to the limit, this is coming from a Laker fan.

This is pretty much true, that team collapsed without Karl.

But when Melo did meet Kobe and the Lakers in the finals, he went off on Kobe so bad they double and triple teamed Melo. I remember Kobe blantantly fouling Melo on rebounds and around the paint, no calls.

People who knock Melo, IMO havn't watched him enough. When melo wants to bring his game to the next level, he becomes a scoring/rebounding monster.

kblo247
01-18-2011, 06:27 PM
I might add to this, Melo has been given nice roster support throughout his career. Him making the playoffs every year is a testament to that. Kobe missed the playoffs while playing at a level Melo could never attain.

And Melo and LeBron were basically equals as rookies. LeBron has continued to pull away ever since. Its on Melo. Nobody else. If he wants to improve, he will need to make sacrifices and start adding more to his game. He has not done this at a rate that will get him into superstar territory. Others have.

Kobe missed the playoffs because he, Caron, and Lamar played only 44 games together. They had a solid record when together and were the 6th seed (close to 5th) before Rudy T quit and they reverted back to the triangle. Lamar tearing his labrum and Kobe having plantar fasciitis for much of that year leading up to a terrible high ankle sprain which would keep him out for many games hurt that team. 2005 was a mess as Vlade and George missed all but a fourth of the season, Kobe would go on to miss another set of games after his wife had a miscarriage, and so on. That was like a pile on year. The only bright spots were getting Bynum in the draft and that Mihm played well.

Melo did get roster support, but you have to qualify it when you say it. K-Mart has missed many games and been hobbled a good portion of time in Denver. In Melo's first years Nene was in and out of the lineup and once missed a season basically. Lenard who played well for them one year was basically lost the very next year after an achilles tear. Melo and JR both stupidly got suspended because of their altercation at MSG. And just last year they lost Karl when they were the third best team in the west record wise. The only year that Denver has actually had the actual core pieces all together and healthy that matter on their roster was 09 when they made the conference finals.

I do agree with you on the fact that Melo needs to grow. To do that he either needs to be coached differently or to seek help from a mentor. By his own admission he sought help with his actual post game, one on one d, and footwork by spending hours in the gym with Kobe by themselves on Team USA and is how they became best friends on that team. That was a case of him seeking out the help he needed to improve and I respect that. Now he needs to seek out help from someone who can show him how to facilitate which is the main difference between him and the other superstars. He is at a stage where he is better than an all star but his lack of being able to facilitate for others stops him from being an elite that can have his name mentioned in the top 1-5 players group that you always hear Kobe, Lebron, and Wade mentioned in. (Durant can't create for others either which is why I feel Westbrook's development the past 2 years and not him is why OKC has blossomed)

I still think he can be taught and is willing to learn but there comes a time when certain guys outgrow their teachers or stopped being pushed by them to learn a new trick (George Karl in this case). Hell I'll be the first to tell you that LeBron was damn good in Cleveland, but I think the Miami version is better because Spo stayed on him and made him learn to do things that he weren't comfortable with doing and weren't forced to do by Mike Brown or Silas.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:28 PM
wow

is that difficult for you to understand?

LayZbone
01-18-2011, 06:32 PM
You could debate intelligently instead of saying "wow" or accusing people of being haters just because they disagree with you. Or maybe you can't, I don't know.

I'm thinking it's the latter, lol.

kblo247
01-18-2011, 06:35 PM
This is pretty much true, that team collapsed without Karl.

But when Melo did meet Kobe and the Lakers in the finals, he went off on Kobe so bad they double and triple teamed Melo. I remember Kobe blantantly fouling Melo on rebounds and around the paint, no calls.

People who knock Melo, IMO havn't watched him enough. When melo wants to bring his game to the next level, he becomes a scoring/rebounding monster.

It was a chiwawa fighting a doberman down there. Kobe said Melo was stronger than Artest, Pierce, and Bron. Yet and still Kobe battling Melo and having to use vet tactics to even stand a chance was better than Ariza getting completely man handled. It still gets me that Luke Walton defended him better than Kobe, Ariza, or Odom ever could hope to one on one.

3D doesn't scream Bully Ball for nothing when Melo comes on NBA TV :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:36 PM
Kobe missed the playoffs because he, Caron, and Lamar played only 44 games together. They had a solid record when together and were the 6th seed (close to 5th) before Rudy T quit and they reverted back to the triangle. Lamar tearing his labrum and Kobe having plantar fasciitis for much of that year leading up to a terrible high ankle sprain which would keep him out for many games hurt that team. 2005 was a mess as Vlade and George missed all but a fourth of the season, Kobe would go on to miss another set of games after his wife had a miscarriage, and so on. That was like a pile on year. The only bright spots were getting Bynum in the draft and that Mihm played well.

Melo did get roster support, but you have to qualify it when you say it. K-Mart has missed many games and been hobbled a good portion of time in Denver. In Melo's first years Nene was in and out of the lineup and once missed a season basically. Lenard who played well for them one year was basically lost the very next year after an achilles tear. Melo and JR both stupidly got suspended because of their altercation at MSG. And just last year they lost Karl when they were the third best team in the west record wise. The only year that Denver has actually had the actual core pieces all together and healthy that matter on their roster was 09 when they made the conference finals.

I do agree with you on the fact that Melo needs to grow. To do that he either needs to be coached differently or to seek help from a mentor. By his own admission he sought help with his actual post game, one on one d, and footwork by spending hours in the gym with Kobe by themselves on Team USA. That was a case of him seeking out the help he needed to improve and I respect that. Now he needs to seek out help from someone who can show him how to facilitate which is the main difference between him and the other superstars. He is at a stage where he is better than an all star but his lack of being able to facilitate for others stops him from being an elite that can have his name mentioned in the Kobe, Wade, and James group. (Durant can't create for others either which is why I feel Westbrook's development the past 2 years and not him is why OKC has blossomed)

I still think he can be taught and is willing to learn but there comes a time when certain guys outgrow their teachers or stopped being pushed by them to learn a new trick (George Karl in this case). Hell I'll be the first to tell you that LeBron was damn good in Cleveland, but I think the Miami version is better because Spo stayed on him and made him learn to do things that he weren't comfortable with doing and weren't forced to do by Mike Brown or Silas.


I am fully aware of the reasons for Kobe missing the playoffs man. And my point was, its a testament to how strong and consistent Melo's roster was. Many point to the Nugs having a big turnaround when he showed up and leave out the fact that they also got a healthy Camby, an improved Nene, Andre Miller was shipped there in his prime, and Leonard had his breakout season. Basically, I don't think pointing out that Melo has not missed the playoffs doesn't make him better than we know he is. That is all.

And its not just being a facilitator. He is a poor three point shooter. Why does he continue to take such a high rate of them? He leads the league in shots blocked yet still takes highly contested shots. Some players just play a certain way, and don't make changes or grow. These type of players can become stars, and have a HOF career if their talent level dictates it. But GREAT players are able to continue adding to their game throughout their career. Is Melo capable of this? Well, he is smack dab in the middle of his prime, and hasn't improved since year 3 (which is arguably his best year). Trends are not pointing in the right way

meloman1592
01-18-2011, 06:37 PM
Lol @ this whole thread...melo isnt a legit go to guy?? Lmao yea ok. How is it that because he needs another all star to win, he isnt a go to guy? Wade needed it, kobe did and lebron is currently doing it. Yet melo isnt good enough?? As far as offensive skills go, melos better than every single player on this planet not named kobe bryant.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:38 PM
This is pretty much true, that team collapsed without Karl.

But when Melo did meet Kobe and the Lakers in the finals, he went off on Kobe so bad they double and triple teamed Melo. I remember Kobe blantantly fouling Melo on rebounds and around the paint, no calls.

People who knock Melo, IMO havn't watched him enough. When melo wants to bring his game to the next level, he becomes a scoring/rebounding monster.

in order to move into superstar status, he needs to do this all the time. Therein lies the issue.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:40 PM
Lol @ this whole thread...melo isnt a legit go to guy?? Lmao yea ok. How is it that because he needs another all star to win, he isnt a go to guy? Wade needed it, kobe did and lebron is currently doing it. Yet melo isnt good enough?? As far as offensive skills go, melos better than every single player on this planet not named kobe bryant.

Melo is a star, and is a go-to guy. But he is not in the same conversation as the elite of the elite.
No, Melo's offensive rating has never even been over 110. That is not even remotely close to being an elite offensive player efficiency wise. When you get roughly 2300 more possessions than most the other guys in your draft class over your career, and shoot more times per 48 than anyone in the NBA, you can put up some nice per game stats.

kblo247
01-18-2011, 06:45 PM
I am fully aware of the reasons for Kobe missing the playoffs man. And my point was, its a testament to how strong and consistent Melo's roster was. Many point to the Nugs having a big turnaround when he showed up and leave out the fact that they also got a healthy Camby, an improved Nene, Andre Miller was shipped there in his prime, and Leonard had his breakout season. Basically, I don't think pointing out that Melo has not missed the playoffs makes him better than we know he is. That is all.

And its not just being a facilitator. He is a poor three point shooter. Why does he continue to take such a high rate of them? He leads the league in shots blocked yet still takes highly contested shots. Some players just play a certain way, and don't make changes or grow. These type of players can become stars, and have a HOF career if their talent level dictates it. But GREAT players are able to continue adding to their game throughout their career. Is Melo capable of this? Well, he is smack dab in the middle of his prime, and hasn't improved since year 3 (which is arguably his best year). Trends are not pointing in the right way

I think his best year was 08-09 after the Olympic experience. It just isn't about play but about the fact that he was vocal for the first time as a leader like George Karl said. He demanded more from everyone else and he got after it.

When it comes to bad 3pt shots, that is just in his DNA. Durant takes some of the stupidest shots at times. Kobe still takes crazy off balanced and almost inhumanly possible to make shots. Manu takes crazy shots. All those guys who are older have curtailed it a bit but it still renders its head. Guys who think and are taught score first especially in their formative years often revert to those dumb heat checks for no other reason than they think it is going in and that they have a green light.

As for Melo adding more to his game like limiting his heat check shots to 1 or 2 a game and facilitating I think only time will tell. I doubt he does if he stays in Denver, just like LeBron wouldn't have if he stayed in Cleveland. Their coaches and franchises have grown accustomed to their style of play and took the results that they got from it because lets face it, they stunk before them. Maybe a change of scenery or new expectations of him by Denver is just what he needs.

UnWantedTheory
01-18-2011, 06:46 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

I can't stand Lebron, but this is one of the most ridiculously ignorant comments I have seen lately.

AddiX
01-18-2011, 06:47 PM
in order to move into superstar status, he needs to do this all the time. Therein lies the issue.

It's hard to blame a guy for losing to the Lakers and Spurs in the playoffs. What else can one guy do?

The entire defenses were completely focused on him. These are top defenses in the league.

I'm not saying he didn't have good teams, but his opponents were better. It's really that simple IMO. The guy was probably in the lead of MVP voting for a strong part of last year. Losing Karl really changed the team.

Its like Blaming KG for being being the top player who was on a team lucky to make playoffs most of his time in Minny. Is it really his fault his team couldnt go anywhere?

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 06:50 PM
It's hard to blame a guy for losing to the Lakers and Spurs in the playoffs. What else can one guy do?

The entire defenses were completely focused on him. These are top defenses in the league.

I'm not saying he didn't have good teams, but his opponents were better. It's really that simple IMO. The guy was probably in the lead of MVP voting for a strong part of last year. Losing Karl really changed the team.

It is that simple I agree. I was simply saying Melo needs to play at his highest level to be in the same class as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Paul, or Howard for example. Which he simply doesn't do a lot of the time.

EnWhyKay
01-18-2011, 06:52 PM
SMH.. Melo lead the Cuse to a National Championship as a freshman.. Then ressurected the Nuggets from Obscurity... These are the same people that said Amar'e would be nothin without Nash... Give me a BREAK!..

Anilyzer
01-18-2011, 07:00 PM
Oh, is this the Tuesday version of the big NBA/ESPN Carmelo story?

"Carmelo's not even that good anyway, wah wah."

LoL

Carmelo will be awesome wherever he is playing.

kntresistheheat
01-18-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes,. thats what im saying. Why is Lebron better than Melo? Numbers? Well they are pretty much the same except assists.

He also makes other players around him better. Its not just numbers, the guy makes other players around him make the allstar team or put them in the conversation of being in the all-star. Listen I know you dont like lebron, but lets not be blind and naive about it....The stats that has been shown to you proves it and his all around play proves it to you and let it be know that I am a big dwade fan and I still said that lebron was better over all player than dwade. Not by much:p

DwayneMVPwade
01-18-2011, 07:01 PM
he is one sided. Pure Scorer. However, what makes him elite is he is one of the most dominant scorers in the league

Mudvayne91
01-18-2011, 07:16 PM
What ifs don't mean anything.

Well, neither does your comment on how Melo couldn't win as the best player. Complete matter of opinion. And I really hate to keep defending the guy, but the guy was able to put a Syracuse team on his back his freshman year to a national title.

AddiX
01-18-2011, 07:18 PM
It is that simple I agree. I was simply saying Melo needs to play at his highest level to be in the same class as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Paul, or Howard for example. Which he simply doesn't do a lot of the time.

I get what your saying but hes had a similar record if not better record consistently as all those players year after year.

I agree Melo can be in "easy mode" at times. But I also think the season is too long, the playoffs are too long, and you really will have a hard time finding many players or teams that play every second of every game.

But that's a whole different discussion.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 07:18 PM
One dimentional is harsh but I would say that when his shot isn't falling he's not in the same league as Kobe, Lebron, and the other elite. Lebron's shot can be off but he can still create for others. Kobe was shooting horribly in game 7 and still managed to snag 15 boards, play great D, and hit a couple big 4rth quarter shots during the final run. Wade can play lock down D at times.

Carmelo is a great scorer but I've yet to see him take the next step up to an all around game changer. When his J is off it seems like he gets disinterested at times.....

Avenged
01-18-2011, 07:32 PM
I feel like people like to attribute all of Lebron's numbers and success to his freakish athleticism, as if skill had nothing to do with it. You don't do the things he does without "basketball skills" as you generally like to call it. If you think all Lebron does is "lower his head, and get to the foul line", I don't think you've watched him play enough.

Doesn't really matter what he has or doesn't, he still flat out gets it done..

A lot of people are criticizing Lebron basically for being "limited", well let's pretend he's actually "limited" due to athleticism, he's still better than everyone in the league statistically. Now imagine if he wasn't "limited" to everyone who keeps bashing him?

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 07:39 PM
He also makes other players around him better. Its not just numbers, the guy makes other players around him make the allstar team or put them in the conversation of being in the all-star. Listen I know you dont like lebron, but lets not be blind and naive about it....The stats that has been shown to you proves it and his all around play proves it to you and let it be know that I am a big dwade fan and I still said that lebron was better over all player than dwade. Not by much:p

lol.. Lebron is not a better all around player than D-wade. This is crazy..

SteBO
01-18-2011, 07:40 PM
lol.. Lebron is not a better all around player than D-wade. This is crazy..
He's better all around player than Melo, though. I think that's obvious both statistically and when you watch them both.

Evolution23
01-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Melo is the best Offensive player the league IMO

Mudvayne91
01-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Melo is the best Offensive player the league IMO

And he could be one of the best defensive players if he tried. I think that's what drives most Nuggets fans crazy. He has the talent to play both sides of the ball, but only chooses to play defense on select times. Offense clearly isn't a problem though.

Knickrocketsfan
01-18-2011, 08:08 PM
Yeah that's probably my Top 10 as well, just in a slightly different order.

not really in any order just throwing out players I thought were better than rose at this point in their respective careers

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 08:10 PM
He's better all around player than Melo, though. I think that's obvious both statistically and when you watch them both.

You're watching something else than what im watching... I dont see it.. Statistically im not gonna argue because Lebron was clearly asked to do more than melo was...

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 08:11 PM
Melo is the best Offensive player the league IMO

exactly. At least top 3

rhino17
01-18-2011, 08:12 PM
I am not sure what the Execs are referencing, but out of 30 teams, it seems only 2 (Nuggets and Nets) are really high on him, the Knicks, Bulls and Mavs will like to have him but not at a hefty price.

that is an absurd statement, what team would pay a hefty price for a guy that has said he will not be playing for them next season? The Nuggs and Knicks know they might be able to keep him while NYK don't need to trade anything because they can just sign him as a FA. The Rockets have also willing to pay a hefty price and have offered a lot for him

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 08:14 PM
You're watching something else than what im watching... I dont see it.. Statistically im not gonna argue because Lebron was clearly asked to do more than melo was...

you couldn't make an argument using statistics if your life depended on it. LeBron blows Melo out of the water statistically, and you have no idea how to tell.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 08:16 PM
Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got

THE GIPPER
01-18-2011, 08:47 PM
melo is a franchise player. he made denver nuggets baskteball mean something again when he was drafted and has never missed the playoffs. as for the early exits, you need help in the playoffs and thats just something melo didnt have enough of and imo thats the main reason he wants out of denver..just look at the playoffs last year when melo was putting up 32 and 8 and the rest of the team choked..

baghdadbob
01-18-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah, Melo became one dimensional the second he wanted to be a Knick.

Much like Bosh is better than Amar'e.

fadedmario
01-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Melo is overrated. Plain and simple. He'll never win ****.

pd1dish
01-18-2011, 09:22 PM
probably.in all fairness most are fans of teams that are linked to teams in the trade rumors

its quite sad actually

youre an idiot of if you think melo wouldnt help make chicago, NY, or dallas legit contenders for the title. at this point, chicago and NY are legit contenders to make the Eastern Finals, but if you add carmelo to either team, they become instant Finals contenders (thats assuming neither team has to give up anything).

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 09:41 PM
you couldn't make an argument using statistics if your life depended on it. LeBron blows Melo out of the water statistically, and you have no idea how to tell.

Blown outta the water? Melo is a forward with a true point guard on his team and another legit scoring option.. The last few years anyway...

Melo - 23 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists.

Lebron - 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists.

So thats "blown outta the water"? The reason i dont get into much "debates" about Lebron james is because people like you act like you guys are going to the prom and you dont want to offend him before he puts out. Its ridiculous. You make it seem like Lebron averages 65 points, 23 rebounds, and 19 assists.. I bet you would argue that he could do it. Its stupid and funny. You people worship this man who has done absolutely nothing in the NBA at all but put up great numbers. If you want to have a "debate" about a true great player, mention one. ie: Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaq, Kobe, etc...

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 09:43 PM
Blown outta the water? Melo is a forward with a true point guard on his team and another legit scoring option.. The last few years anyway...

Melo - 23 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists.

Lebron - 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists.

So thats "blown outta the water"? The reason i dont get into much "debates" about Lebron james is because people like you act like you guys are going to the prom and you dont want to offend him before he puts out. Its ridiculous. You make it seem like Lebron averages 65 points, 23 rebounds, and 19 assists.. I bet you would argue that he could do it. Its stupid and funny. You people worship this man who has done absolutely nothing in the NBA at all but put up great numbers. If you want to have a "debate" about a true great player, mention one. ie: Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaq, Kobe, etc...


you are an interesting fellow, I will give you that. But your understanding of statistics is that of a 1st grader. Your understanding of basketball may honestly be less than that.

I can say for a fact, I have never read a post of yours, and thought you gave any basketball insight in the slightest.

Stick around PSD. You may learn the game eventually. Until then, have fun!

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 09:46 PM
you are an interesting fellow, I will give you that. But your understanding of statistics is that of a 1st grader. Your understanding of basketball may honestly be less than that.

I can say for a fact, I have never read a post of yours, and thought you gave any basketball insight in the slightest.

Stick around PSD. You may learn the game eventually. Until then, have fun!

This is the dumbest, most passive aggressive thing ive ever read on a message board in my "1st grade" life.. You ask me to put up stats, i did, then you told me i dont understand the stats.. lmao... get outta here....

John Walls Era
01-18-2011, 09:49 PM
Likes taking jumpers even though he can score in many ways. Doesn't want to play D. Yeah pretty 1-D to me.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 09:52 PM
This is the dumbest, most passive aggressive thing ive ever read on a message board in my "1st grade" life.. You ask me to put up stats, i did, then you told me i dont understand the stats.. lmao... get outta here....

you put up 1st grade stats. Per game averages.

Next comment?

rhino17
01-18-2011, 09:55 PM
Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got

Didn't read the whole thing, just too long of a post. But, Daryl Morey, the biggest statistics guy in the NBA, disagrees with your analysis.


Melo is overrated. Plain and simple. He'll never win ****.

definitely, because he never won a college championship and has not qualified for the playoffs every season since he began his NBA career :rolleyes:

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:00 PM
you put up 1st grade stats. Per game averages.

Next comment?

lmfao... This is dumb

thekmp211
01-18-2011, 10:01 PM
This is the dumbest, most passive aggressive thing ive ever read on a message board in my "1st grade" life.. You ask me to put up stats, i did, then you told me i dont understand the stats.. lmao... get outta here....

look buddy, you're going to have a hard time here if you're trying to pick fights with the mods. hawkeye is about as non-confrontational and fact-based as they come around these parts. if you can't communicate with him in a respectful manner, i can't imagine you're capable of polite discourse.

you've done nothing but start conflict on this site, mostly over lebron james. for someone who dislikes the guy so much you sure can't seem to stop talking about him.

i think its clear what melo is and isn't at this point in his career. i'd take him on my team, but i don't trust him or his game to lead me to the promised land.

drobe86
01-18-2011, 10:01 PM
Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

+1 people get so amazed with Brons athletic ability that they don't factor in his skills at all. Lebron turns the ball over at a pretty high rate, can't shoot 3's, he suspect from midrange, and is a below average free throw shooter. He excels at driving and defensively, but that's pretty much it. Melo has a game with no weaknesses. And when motivated can be devastating.... melo is a tremendous player and if we were grading on pure skill he would be considered top 5. But he doesn't have the athletic ability as some of todays superstars so he gets overlooked....

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:03 PM
look buddy, you're going to have a hard time here if you're trying to pick fights with the mods. hawkeye is about as non-confrontational and fact-based as they come around these parts. if you can't communicate with him in a respectful manner, i can't imagine you're capable of polite discourse.

you've done nothing but start conflict on this site, mostly over lebron james. for someone who dislikes the guy so much you sure can't seem to stop talking about him.

i think its clear what melo is and isn't at this point in his career. i'd take him on my team, but i don't trust him or his game to lead me to the promised land.

Ok, so what your telling me is that if i dont have something nice to say about Lebron, then dont say anything at all? Gotcha.... And what your also telling me is that since this guy is a mod, he can say disrespectful things to me and i cant say anything back? Ok cool.... Noted...

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:05 PM
+1 people get so amazed with Brons athletic ability that they don't factor in his skills at all. Lebron turns the ball over at a pretty high rate, can't shoot 3's, he suspect from midrange, and is a below average free throw shooter. He excels at driving and defensively, but that's pretty much it. Melo has a game with no weaknesses. And when motivated can be devastating.... melo is a tremendous player and if we were grading on pure skill he would be considered top 5. But he doesn't have the athletic ability as some of todays superstars so he gets overlooked....

Clearly im not the only one that thinks the way i do..

Bornknick73
01-18-2011, 10:11 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

I guess youre right, in that case ...So did Jordan, so did Bird, so did Hakeem, so did ..........

Ive never insulted a thread before so this is my first go at it....

:guns: /thread

and then..


:horse:

thekmp211
01-18-2011, 10:15 PM
Ok, so what your telling me is that if i dont have something nice to say about Lebron, then dont say anything at all? Gotcha.... And what your also telling me is that since this guy is a mod, he can say disrespectful things to me and i cant say anything back? Ok cool.... Noted...

dont act like a victim here. i'm very aware of how you can/do instigate problems on the forum.

i just think you have a strange, backwards obsession with lebron since you literally cant go one post without mentioning him.

unwantedplayer
01-18-2011, 10:19 PM
Melo is a more versatile player than Lebron....... And Lebron obviously needs another superstar. So does kobe, so does any other player that wants to win a championship.

I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic.

John Walls Era
01-18-2011, 10:22 PM
Ok, so what your telling me is that if i dont have something nice to say about Lebron, then dont say anything at all? Gotcha.... And what your also telling me is that since this guy is a mod, he can say disrespectful things to me and i cant say anything back? Ok cool.... Noted...

Your argument is weak. You just come off as a Lebron hater and thats ok, but at least bring some proper evidence.



Lebron's PER in his career: 26.8
Melo's PER in his career: 20.1
Lebron has never had a lower PER than Melo in any season




Lebron's Winshare per 48 minute: 0.224
Melo's: .123 (pretty bad considering avg. is .1)


Also statistically (per game), Lebron is better than Melo in almost every stat (from Defense to offense). Despite being known as a jump shooter, Melo is even worse in 3pt%.

ManRam
01-18-2011, 10:23 PM
I don't feel like reading all the crap, but the execs are right. He's a great scorer. He is not a leader. He does not defend. He doesn't make his teammates better. Frankly, he isn't a guy I'd want my team going "all-in" for. I don't think he displays the desire and passion that a lot of the best players do. I don't like Adrian Wojno too much, but he is spot on in his most recent article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AhGhZ0yiLd8osHNKvqqwtRK8vLYF?slug=aw-netsanthony011711).

Here's an excerpt.


After all, íMelo isnít Kobe Bryant. He isnít LeBron James. Or Dwyane Wade. He isnít a transcendent talent who sells out the arena, elevates everyone and changes everything. Anthony is a prolific scorer, but heíll never be your leader. There are stars worth a franchise selling out everything, but Anthony isnít one of them. For all the big talk out of these Nets, all the promises that the world wanted to come play for the Russian billionaire and rap mogul in Brooklyn, that makes íMeloís painful, public reluctance to make a commitment even worse.

He's a top 10 player, because of his scorer, but if there is any top 10 player that needs another top 10 player to win, it's him. I know there is a ton of LeBron hate out there, but quite frankly, if you think Melo is in LeBron's league, you are dumb. I ctrl+f'd the first 40 posts, and LeBron's name came up 43 times. Why it did? I have no idea. But if there's even an argument, that's crazy. LeBron is as un-one-dimensional as it comes. Melo is.

If he isn't getting it done with Billups, Nene, Smith, Kenyon, Afflalo and Lawson, he isn't going to be winning anytime soon in Jersey.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:23 PM
Didn't read the whole thing, just too long of a post. But, Daryl Morey, the biggest statistics guy in the NBA, disagrees with your analysis.



definitely, because he never won a college championship and has not qualified for the playoffs every season since he began his NBA career :rolleyes:

Actually Morey does agree with me. I am sorry it was too long for you, but if you think Morey would sell the farm to get Melo as his feature player, you are wrong

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:25 PM
dont act like a victim here. i'm very aware of how you can/do instigate problems on the forum.

i just think you have a strange, backwards obsession with lebron since you literally cant go one post without mentioning him.

lol... Nobody is playing a victim. Its stupid how you people can praise a player/team in every single post, but get mad at me for not praising him. And there is no obsession i have with Lebron. I think he's another NBA player that hasnt proved greatness. Thats my opinion. Let me have that. Its not my fault that every other thread is about Lebron and the heat. And if me being negative is "instigating problems", then you guys are insecure. Shouldn't be any problems with what im saying. Im only talking about on the court things. I bring up "the decison" when it applies...

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:26 PM
lmfao... This is dumb

dude. You use per game averages. There couldn't be a more archaic way to look at things. If you want to get in a statistical argument, then first learn how to look and interpret them.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:28 PM
Ok, so what your telling me is that if i dont have something nice to say about Lebron, then dont say anything at all? Gotcha.... And what your also telling me is that since this guy is a mod, he can say disrespectful things to me and i cant say anything back? Ok cool.... Noted...

you can bash LeBron all you want, but at least understand the basic premise of how to evaluate a player.

I said something disrespectful to you? I told you I have never seen a post of yours with good basketball insight. I apologize if you view it in that manner, but quite honestly, you couldn't be a bigger Kobe homer, and LeBron hater if you put your mind to it.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:28 PM
dude. You use per game averages. There couldn't be a more archaic way to look at things. If you want to get in a statistical argument, then first learn how to look and interpret them.

Ok man.. You win.. I wont give my opinion of Lebron anymore on this site.

drobe86
01-18-2011, 10:32 PM
Your argument is weak. You just come off as a Lebron hater and thats ok, but at least bring some proper evidence.



Lebron's PER in his career: 26.8
Melo's PER in his career: 20.1
Lebron has never had a lower PER than Melo in any season




Lebron's Winshare per 48 minute: 0.224
Melo's: .123 (pretty bad considering avg. is .1)


Also statistically (per game), Lebron is better than Melo in almost every stat (from Defense to offense). Despite being known as a jump shooter, Melo is even worse in 3pt%.


I don't think you can just look at the stats and compare the players. I also don't understand why Lebron gets the praise that he does. He's a superb athlete, great passer, but he should be much better than he is. Is there a statistic for being a quitter? Because thats what he did in the playoffs vs. Boston last year? Is there a statistic for heart? Because he's shown none in 7 years. If he gets the slightest muscle pull or any injury, he doesn't play or shuts it down. Is there a statistic for being a leader? Because he hasn't been able to lead his team to new heights since he's been in the NBA. Cleveland didn't win championships despite having the leagues best record 2 times during the regular season. He pretty much admitted he couldn't lead once he followed Wade to Miami. He's a great player but not anywhere near what people make him out to be......

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:33 PM
you can bash LeBron all you want, but at least understand the basic premise of how to evaluate a player.

I said something disrespectful to you? I told you I have never seen a post of yours with good basketball insight. I apologize if you view it in that manner, but quite honestly, you couldn't be a bigger Kobe homer, and LeBron hater if you put your mind to it.

A kobe Homer? Kobe is the best player on my favorite team. He has everything to back up what my arguments are. I dont say anything ridiculous or out of this world about Kobe. And how is per game stats "archaic? And please dont insult me by asking me if i know what the word means, i do. I just dont know the rules on this site of comparing players

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:34 PM
is there anyone out there who thinks Melo is a #1 on a contender still???

yes absolutely. with the right pieces and in the right situation. he's a winner, IMO.

thekmp211
01-18-2011, 10:35 PM
lol... Nobody is playing a victim. Its stupid how you people can praise a player/team in every single post, but get mad at me for not praising him. And there is no obsession i have with Lebron. I think he's another NBA player that hasnt proved greatness. Thats my opinion. Let me have that. Its not my fault that every other thread is about Lebron and the heat. And if me being negative is "instigating problems", then you guys are insecure. Shouldn't be any problems with what im saying. Im only talking about on the court things. I bring up "the decison" when it applies...

you're totally entitled to your opinion. but when you come into a thread about carmelo anthony and then start lebron bashing, one starts to wonder what your reason for being on this forum is.

idk what you even mean about being insecure, but people are going to challenge your opinions on this site and it's up to you to respond without insults. i'm just gonna leave it at that, this isn't what the forum is for.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:35 PM
+1 people get so amazed with Brons athletic ability that they don't factor in his skills at all. Lebron turns the ball over at a pretty high rate, can't shoot 3's, he suspect from midrange, and is a below average free throw shooter. He excels at driving and defensively, but that's pretty much it. Melo has a game with no weaknesses. And when motivated can be devastating.... melo is a tremendous player and if we were grading on pure skill he would be considered top 5. But he doesn't have the athletic ability as some of todays superstars so he gets overlooked....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=jamesle01&y2=2011

ok, first off, I am not sure if you are attempting to do a Melo/LeBron comparison. However, as I showed before, LeBron is actually as good of a shooter as Melo, and has a MUCH higher TS%.
Turns is over at a 11.9% rate, same as Melo.
He excels at much more than penetration and defense. He is an unreal facilitator for the SF position, and will pass Larry Bird for most assists for the position when done.
What SKILL are you guys referring to? No doubt Melo has a nicer looking jumper if looking at textbook style So? It doesn't go in at a higher rate.
LeBron is a better 3 pt shooter than Melo as well.

What are you talking about here? Honestly. Melo is a very, very talented player, but to say he is on LeBron, Kobe, Durant, or Wade's level as an elite wing it straight up false, and its pretty easy to prove.

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:36 PM
nobody in their right mind thinks Melo is better than Lebron.

3RDASYSTEM
01-18-2011, 10:37 PM
If i was Melo i would be concerned that my new GM could possibly be B.KING ...He put the worst cast possible around that lil #3 guy,the last time he had a Rockstar type player and he had like 6yrs to do it and nobody said nothing about it cuz he has never done nothing

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:38 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=jamesle01&y2=2011

ok, first off, I am not sure if you are attempting to do a Melo/LeBron comparison. However, as I showed before, LeBron is actually as good of a shooter as Melo, and has a MUCH higher TS%.
Turns is over at a 11.9% rate, same as Melo.
He excels at much more than penetration and defense. He is an unreal facilitator for the SF position, and will pass Larry Bird for most assists for the position when done.
What SKILL are you guys referring to? No doubt Melo has a nicer looking jumper if looking at textbook style So? It doesn't go in at a higher rate.
LeBron is a better 3 pt shooter than Melo as well.

What are you talking about here? Honestly. Melo is a very, very talented player, but to say he is on LeBron, Kobe, Durant, or Wade's level as an elite wing it straight up false, and its pretty easy to prove.

he's not a better 3 point shooter by much and also shoots more 3s than Melo. i don't even have to look at the stats to know that. without being nit-picky what separates Lebron from Melo isn't offense; its Lebron's defense and distribution.

Chronz
01-18-2011, 10:41 PM
Melo is far more skilled than LeBron. He isn't the better player or more athletic, but his post game, foot work, jump shots, and one on one individual defense (no team support behind him) are far better. He is the more refined player. Lebron is much more athletic, better in a team defensive concept that relies on help and rotating, and was blessed with better court vision. When it comes to pure skills Carmelo isn't matched or outclassed by anyone that largely plays on the perimeter but Kobe and Dirk.

Melo is NOWHERE near Bron as a defender in any sense of the word

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:42 PM
A kobe Homer? Kobe is the best player on my favorite team. He has everything to back up what my arguments are. I dont say anything ridiculous or out of this world about Kobe. And how is per game stats "archaic? And please dont insult me by asking me if i know what the word means, i do. I just dont know the rules on this site of comparing players

Monta Ellis averaged 25 ppg and sucked the floor up. That is exactly why they are archaic. Melo played on a top 3 paced team, and played huge minutes, with more shot attempts per minute than any player in the NBA. That is called inflation my friend.
And you are a monster Kobe homer, who when backed into a corner, pulls out the rings when its shown your boy isn't the best player in the NBA.

Do I really need to continue with this? Like I said, you post nothing of substance, and all you ever post is argumentative posts.

You are MORE THAN WELCOME to post any opinion you like. But if you have zip evidence to support it, why should anyone take it seriously?

drobe86
01-18-2011, 10:43 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=jamesle01&y2=2011

ok, first off, I am not sure if you are attempting to do a Melo/LeBron comparison. However, as I showed before, LeBron is actually as good of a shooter as Melo, and has a MUCH higher TS%.
Turns is over at a 11.9% rate, same as Melo.
He excels at much more than penetration and defense. He is an unreal facilitator for the SF position, and will pass Larry Bird for most assists for the position when done.
What SKILL are you guys referring to? No doubt Melo has a nicer looking jumper if looking at textbook style So? It doesn't go in at a higher rate.
LeBron is a better 3 pt shooter than Melo as well.

What are you talking about here? Honestly. Melo is a very, very talented player, but to say he is on LeBron, Kobe, Durant, or Wade's level as an elite wing it straight up false, and its pretty easy to prove.



Again all you are doing is looking at statistics... Name the intagibles Lebron has? Leadership is NONE.... Heart is NONE.... Lebron quits as soon as it gets tough. Hows Lebron in the clutch? AWFUL.... So don't just spout off statistics look at everything. Lebron is great when it doesn't matter, but when the game is on the line he defers....

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:44 PM
his advanced stats don't look as shiny as his per game but they are still nothing to stick your nose up at, imo.

Chronz
01-18-2011, 10:44 PM
Read that right there Lebron fans... Just because Lebron plays basketball like a linebacker and lowers his head while charging the rim full speed without looking up, and getting an and one call doesn't mean he is a skilled basketball player. It means he is big and fast. Melo obviously has better basketball skills than Lebron. If you believe otherwise then you dont know basketball, ESPN has you brainwashed, or your a "heat fan"...
Just gos to show how irrelevant skills are compared to IMPACT

Bornknick73
01-18-2011, 10:45 PM
Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got

Please tell me there is a link for this because if you went to all the trouble to write it your PSD account should be shot and hung to bleed out.

Some of you guys and your numbers. I remember people arguing about STAT and David Lee. There were the Lee supporters who would throw every stat out there to show STAT over Lee was no big difference. Some thought Lee being the better rebounder was the better player. And some of his stats showed he was. They both played in the same system and Lee had better assist and rebound numbers.

Now the stats would tell you that he was....but IS he? We all know he is Not. These are the same types of numbers that said the Stoudemire isnt a franchise player! RIGHT? He aint worth MAX money!! Right? Thats what all you stat geeks said. He's overpaid and isnt a franchise player. Maybe you havent noticed but your stats lied to you. Studemire is every bit the superstar franchise player everyone said he wasnt and hes proving it with a MVP caliber season. And one could say hes doing it alone. I wonder how many titles does Kobe win without Pau? How many does Tim win without Tony or Manu.

Where is the stat that measures heart or how a player acts in a locker room or treats his teammates or how he gives the team confidence because he is on their side? Where is the leadership stat? And im talking star players in general. Numbers only tell half the story.

Lol, yes we all know Melo's game has some flaws, who's game in the NBA is perfect. Pointing out the guys flaws based on pure numbers is craziness. I measure star players on their teams success. Denver has been a top team in the West since they drafted him. Period.

While he might not be the sole guy that can carry the team to the title it in no way diminishes him as a franchise player. Without Pau Kobe IS Melo. Except Melo can rebound better. A high volume shooter/scorer that cant win the big one without help.

Which basically describes every NBA superstar. Not even the mighty Jordan did it alone. While Melo may not be a Jordan hes definitely not a Scottie. Hes a franchise player who will be paid a franchise player's salary.

Melo's not a franchise player....:facepalm:

I dont need 15,000 posts to know he is. Denver's record since they drafted him is proof enough for me. No team had the immediate success that Denver had. Not the Cavs, not the Magic, not the Hornets. Playoffs since day 1.

Numbers are not always the true measure of a player. Turiaf's numbers are complete garbage and yet he brings something numbers cant measure, toughness, energy, will to win, intensity. Where are the stats to measure that?

Stats, like D'antoni's system, are inflated period. The only stat that matters when measuring a true franchise player is WINS!! How many wins does your team have since having you on their team. And in Melo's case hes got an amount consistent with any franchise player.

Using geek stats to say he isnt a franchise player or worth max money is beyond even my stupidity which at times knows no bounds.

/end rant

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:45 PM
yes absolutely. with the right pieces and in the right situation. he's a winner, IMO.

Melo is absolutely a winner Kashmir. But he is not capable of being the clear cut lead dog on a ring winner. Is he capable of being a HUGE part of one? I would fight tooth and nail that the answer is yes.

But the whole point of this thread, and the point I and many are trying to make around Melo is, if you give him the max, as the lead dog, and then surround him with role players, and pieces, and he is easily the best player on the team, you are not winning a ring.

Now, put him on the Knicks (where he is already the 2nd best player behind Amare), and give him some depth and a defensive frontcourt, and you have a bad *** team.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:46 PM
you're totally entitled to your opinion. but when you come into a thread about carmelo anthony and then start lebron bashing, one starts to wonder what your reason for being on this forum is.

idk what you even mean about being insecure, but people are going to challenge your opinions on this site and it's up to you to respond without insults. i'm just gonna leave it at that, this isn't what the forum is for.

My man, if you read back hawkeye called me "dumb" and a "1st grader" first. Im sorry if i took exception to that and responded negatively. Dont try and gang up on me because i dont agree with you guys. And someone else compared Lebron

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:47 PM
Just gos to show how irrelevant skills are compared to IMPACT

What do you define as "impact"?

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:48 PM
I don't think you can just look at the stats and compare the players. I also don't understand why Lebron gets the praise that he does. He's a superb athlete, great passer, but he should be much better than he is. Is there a statistic for being a quitter? Because thats what he did in the playoffs vs. Boston last year? Is there a statistic for heart? Because he's shown none in 7 years. If he gets the slightest muscle pull or any injury, he doesn't play or shuts it down. Is there a statistic for being a leader? Because he hasn't been able to lead his team to new heights since he's been in the NBA. Cleveland didn't win championships despite having the leagues best record 2 times during the regular season. He pretty much admitted he couldn't lead once he followed Wade to Miami. He's a great player but not anywhere near what people make him out to be......

hate to throw this low blow at you, but wtf has Dirk ever done, despite his ridiculous talent level he has had for 8 years?

You have to learn to properly evaluate stars, and furthermore, superstars.

LeBron has been the best player in the NBA a long time now. Nobody is kissing his ***, they are simply stating their opinion from WATCHING him dominate, and then factoring in his statistics, which are numbers that only come along every generation or so.

HeaTxRipZz
01-18-2011, 10:52 PM
Melo is absolutely a winner Kashmir. But he is not capable of being the clear cut lead dog on a ring winner. Is he capable of being a HUGE part of one? I would fight tooth and nail that the answer is yes.

But the whole point of this thread, and the point I and many are trying to make around Melo is, if you give him the max, as the lead dog, and then surround him with role players, and pieces, and he is easily the best player on the team, you are not winning a ring.

Now, put him on the Knicks (where he is already the 2nd best player behind Amare), and give him some depth and a defensive frontcourt, and you have a bad *** team.

Have to agree with this. Melo is an elite scorer but not an elite all around player. Everyone now a days try to associate the 2 as 1 when really it's totally different. Melo can be the top scorer in the league but without the leadership where will that help the rest of the team? Perfect example is the Amare vs Lee argument over the summer where stats were compared and things like that but one thing alot of people didn't take into effect was leadership. Take a look at the knicks team last year and the knicks team this year the biggest difference is the leadership and Carmelo going to the Nets will seriously lack that and they will make the playoff but all it will be is early exits because there is noone to motivate the team.

I love Melo and would love to have him on the Knicks or Bulls roster and that's because both teams have leaders. Without that I would honestly question whether it would be worth it without any type of leaders on this roster.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 10:53 PM
hate to throw this low blow at you, but wtf has Dirk ever done, despite his ridiculous talent level he has had for 8 years?

You have to learn to properly evaluate stars, and furthermore, superstars.

LeBron has been the best player in the NBA a long time now. Nobody is kissing his ***, they are simply stating their opinion from WATCHING him dominate, and then factoring in his statistics, which are numbers that only come along every generation or so.

Im not trying to start in with you, but i dont get this.. These guys have had the exact same impact on the league. Great numbers, no hardware... Dirk is an amazing player. What makes Lebron so much more better than Dirk. And please can i get a real answer. Only answers i ever get are ones filled with stats or "your dumb". I wanna talk about things that cant be jotted down on paper. Heart, leadership, killer instinct...

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:53 PM
Melo is absolutely a winner Kashmir. But he is not capable of being the clear cut lead dog on a ring winner. Is he capable of being a HUGE part of one? I would fight tooth and nail that the answer is yes.

But the whole point of this thread, and the point I and many are trying to make around Melo is, if you give him the max, as the lead dog, and then surround him with role players, and pieces, and he is easily the best player on the team, you are not winning a ring.

Now, put him on the Knicks (where he is already the 2nd best player behind Amare), and give him some depth and a defensive frontcourt, and you have a bad *** team.

just as long as Walsh doesn't extend D'antoni ;)

i think it'd be interesting to see which one of the two would be the "leader" of that team. two volume shooters on a Mike D'antoni team makes me wanna chew on glass.

drobe86
01-18-2011, 10:54 PM
hate to throw this low blow at you, but wtf has Dirk ever done, despite his ridiculous talent level he has had for 8 years?

You have to learn to properly evaluate stars, and furthermore, superstars.

LeBron has been the best player in the NBA a long time now. Nobody is kissing his ***, they are simply stating their opinion from WATCHING him dominate, and then factoring in his statistics, which are numbers that only come along every generation or so.


I'm cool with it but Dirk's been playing with 2nd and 3rd tier players his entire career. Dirks never had anything close to a 1b type player so its tough to win. Look at the championship winners..

2010/2009- Kobe, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Bynum
2008- Ray Allen, Garnett, Pierce
2007- Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2006- Dwayne Wade, Shaquille O'neal



I mean when you're playing with Josh Howard, Jason terry, Dampier, I mean its kinda hard to win a ring... And Howard and Terry are decent players don't get me wrong, but far from guys you can win a champonship with... You know that

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:55 PM
Again all you are doing is looking at statistics... Name the intagibles Lebron has? Leadership is NONE.... Heart is NONE.... Lebron quits as soon as it gets tough. Hows Lebron in the clutch? AWFUL.... So don't just spout off statistics look at everything. Lebron is great when it doesn't matter, but when the game is on the line he defers....

I have watched so many of their games its not even funny. Intangibles? haha. Really? Um, look at the Cavs, and the players LJ played with, and their efficiency now and what is was with him. LeBron makes everything around him better.
LeBron in the clutch?

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

that would be #1 in the NBA.


Don't spout off "your eyes" when you are wrong with what they perceive.

Chronz
01-18-2011, 10:56 PM
What do you define as "impact"?

I dont understand the question. Its the totality of their contributions. Everyone and their mom KNOWS Bron is a superior player, the fact that you can be more skilled and an inferior player proves he has a greater IMPACT.

Kashmir13579
01-18-2011, 10:56 PM
I have watched so many of their games its not even funny. Intangibles? haha. Really? Um, look at the Cavs, and the players LJ played with, and their efficiency now and what is was with him. LeBron makes everything around him better.
LeBron in the clutch?

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

that would be #1 in the NBA.


Don't spout off "your eyes" when you are wrong with what they perceive.

i despise lebron as a person and as a role model but i don't know why you even respond to posts like that.

drobe86
01-18-2011, 10:58 PM
I have watched so many of their games its not even funny. Intangibles? haha. Really? Um, look at the Cavs, and the players LJ played with, and their efficiency now and what is was with him. LeBron makes everything around him better.
LeBron in the clutch?

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

that would be #1 in the NBA.


Don't spout off "your eyes" when you are wrong with what they perceive.


So why has he failed every year in the playoffs since his finals appearance? Despite winning multiple MVPs and being considered the best player on the planet? And don't gimme 3 clips where he played well down the stretch. Lebron has like 1 game winner in his 7 year career....

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 10:58 PM
My man, if you read back hawkeye called me "dumb" and a "1st grader" first. Im sorry if i took exception to that and responded negatively. Dont try and gang up on me because i dont agree with you guys. And someone else compared Lebron

find where I called you "dumb". And I called your understanding of basketball that of a 1st grader (ie, a beginning level)

Nobody is ganging up on you. There are posters reading what you post, and replying. That is PSD

Chronz
01-18-2011, 10:58 PM
Please tell me there is a link for this because if you went to all the trouble to write it your PSD account should be shot and hung to bleed out.

Some of you guys and your numbers. I remember people arguing about STAT and David Lee. There were the Lee supporters who would throw every stat out there to show STAT over Lee was no big difference. Some thought Lee being the better rebounder was the better player. And some of his stats showed he was. They both played in the same system and Lee had better assist and rebound numbers.

Now the stats would tell you that he was....but IS he? We all know he is Not. These are the same types of numbers that said the Stoudemire isnt a franchise player! RIGHT? He aint worth MAX money!! Right? Thats what all you stat geeks said. He's overpaid and isnt a franchise player. Maybe you havent noticed but your stats lied to you. Studemire is every bit the superstar franchise player everyone said he wasnt and hes proving it with a MVP caliber season. And one could say hes doing it alone. I wonder how many titles does Kobe win without Pau? How many does Tim win without Tony or Manu.

Where is the stat that measures heart or how a player acts in a locker room or treats his teammates or how he gives the team confidence because he is on their side? Where is the leadership stat? And im talking star players in general. Numbers only tell half the story.

Lol, yes we all know Melo's game has some flaws, who's game in the NBA is perfect. Pointing out the guys flaws based on pure numbers is craziness. I measure star players on their teams success. Denver has been a top team in the West since they drafted him. Period.

While he might not be the sole guy that can carry the team to the title it in no way diminishes him as a franchise player. Without Pau Kobe IS Melo. Except Melo can rebound better. A high volume shooter/scorer that cant win the big one without help.

Which basically describes every NBA superstar. Not even the mighty Jordan did it alone. While Melo may not be a Jordan hes definitely not a Scottie. Hes a franchise player who will be paid a franchise player's salary.

Melo's not a franchise player....:facepalm:

I dont need 15,000 posts to know he is. Denver's record since they drafted him is proof enough for me. No team had the immediate success that Denver had. Not the Cavs, not the Magic, not the Hornets. Playoffs since day 1.

Numbers are not always the true measure of a player. Turiaf's numbers are complete garbage and yet he brings something numbers cant measure, toughness, energy, will to win, intensity. Where are the stats to measure that?

Stats, like D'antoni's system, are inflated period. The only stat that matters when measuring a true franchise player is WINS!! How many wins does your team have since having you on their team. And in Melo's case hes got an amount consistent with any franchise player.

Using geek stats to say he isnt a franchise player or worth max money is beyond even my stupidity which at times knows no bounds.

/end rant
Wait so you want his account shut down but you can rant endlessly? Atleast his rant made sense

BTW Id rather take Scottie Pippen than Melo

drobe86
01-18-2011, 11:01 PM
To nobodys surprise Lebron just bricked a game winner. Now 5 minutes ago he was playing out of his mind, and prettty unstoppable..... But as the game drew closer to the end he didn't want to play anymore and started missing....

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:03 PM
Im not trying to start in with you, but i dont get this.. These guys have had the exact same impact on the league. Great numbers, no hardware... Dirk is an amazing player. What makes Lebron so much more better than Dirk. And please can i get a real answer. Only answers i ever get are ones filled with stats or "your dumb". I wanna talk about things that cant be jotted down on paper. Heart, leadership, killer instinct...

no, they don't. LeBron's impact far exceed's Melo's.

If you want to talk about intangibles, go for it. But I have no clue how you plan to prove them.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:04 PM
find where I called you "dumb". And I called your understanding of basketball that of a 1st grader (ie, a beginning level)

Nobody is ganging up on you. There are posters reading what you post, and replying. That is PSD

my bad, i confused your post with someone else that hates me for not thinking lebron is the best player in the league. I apologize for that. I just went back and read. But why cant anyone ever answer the question as to how you can have the best record in the league two years in a row, win mvp twice in a row, have the coach of the year, not win a championship let alone even make it to the championship, and STILL be the best player in the league "by far"?

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:05 PM
I'm cool with it but Dirk's been playing with 2nd and 3rd tier players his entire career. Dirks never had anything close to a 1b type player so its tough to win. Look at the championship winners..

2010/2009- Kobe, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Bynum
2008- Ray Allen, Garnett, Pierce
2007- Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2006- Dwayne Wade, Shaquille O'neal



I mean when you're playing with Josh Howard, Jason terry, Dampier, I mean its kinda hard to win a ring... And Howard and Terry are decent players don't get me wrong, but far from guys you can win a champonship with... You know that

not my point. Its that I constantly see you blow Dirk up like a savior, when his roster support takes an absolute crap on anything LeBron has ever had.

And weren't you just touting the Mavs as perennial contenders a month ago?

I really respect you, after all this time. But you need consistency bro

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:08 PM
no, they don't. LeBron's impact far exceed's Melo's.

If you want to talk about intangibles, go for it. But I have no clue how you plan to prove them.

I was talking about Dirk

drobe86
01-18-2011, 11:09 PM
not my point. Its that I constantly see you blow Dirk up like a savior, when his roster support takes an absolute crap on anything LeBron has ever had.

And weren't you just touting the Mavs as perennial contenders a month ago?

I really respect you, after all this time. But you need consistency bro


Man have you not watched Dirk? He's playing amazing man but seriously our roster isn't anything near what it was a month ago. Butler is out for the season, Dirk sat 9 games, Chandlers been out a week with the flu, Marion has been in and out of the lineup, I mean seriously how can we contend when most of our core group hasn't been playing together in 2011? I don't believe its over but I believe a trade has to be made for a 1b type player. Other than Dirk I don't get any scoring from anyone else consistently....

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:12 PM
So why has he failed every year in the playoffs since his finals appearance? Despite winning multiple MVPs and being considered the best player on the planet? And don't gimme 3 clips where he played well down the stretch. Lebron has like 1 game winner in his 7 year career....

go take a gander at the Cavs record. That should answer this post

drobe86
01-18-2011, 11:15 PM
go take a gander at the Cavs record. That should answer this post


Please note that the Mavs record without dirk was 2-7... Just sayin

drobe86
01-18-2011, 11:17 PM
Lebron choked again.... Down 2 at home vs. Atlanta lebron takes a 3, misses and the Heat will lose the game.. If he's the best player on the planet how does he miss that?


And FYI: Joe Johnson outplayed him tonight. Hawkeye you told me JJ wasn't an elite player. I was wondering if you have watched him the last month? After tonight I bet you Lebron thinks he's elite...

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:17 PM
go take a gander at the Cavs record. That should answer this post

they pretty much lost there whole team from last year. and have a new coach

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:17 PM
my bad, i confused your post with someone else that hates me for not thinking lebron is the best player in the league. I apologize for that. I just went back and read. But why cant anyone ever answer the question as to how you can have the best record in the league two years in a row, win mvp twice in a row, have the coach of the year, not win a championship let alone even make it to the championship, and STILL be the best player in the league "by far"?

like I told drobe. Take a gander at the Cavs record now. There hasn't been a player who has been as important to his team's success that I can think of since Jordan. James is actually that good.

I feel like many of you value my opinion as that of a LeBron lover with minimal rational. But when we see a player with his impact, stats, and then couple it all with how the Cavs have performed without him, its so obvious how good he is its not even funny. And that is what infuriates me with Lebron haters. Its one thing to hate him. Its another to discredit him as a basketball player. We have all played, and grown up watching bball. You have to be mentally ******** not to understand LeBron James is an unreal player (and this is not directed at you bro, just in general).

The amount of hate he has gotten has actually made me HOPE he wins multiple rings, so the children shut up. Its gotten that annoying. I was indifferent to him for years (despite knowing what I was watching). Now I actually pull for a guy who told a city FU. Its gotten that bad here.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:20 PM
Man have you not watched Dirk? He's playing amazing man but seriously our roster isn't anything near what it was a month ago. Butler is out for the season, Dirk sat 9 games, Chandlers been out a week with the flu, Marion has been in and out of the lineup, I mean seriously how can we contend when most of our core group hasn't been playing together in 2011? I don't believe its over but I believe a trade has to be made for a 1b type player. Other than Dirk I don't get any scoring from anyone else consistently....

the Mavs roster is still exponentially better than what Bron had.

I watch Dirk all the time. One of my favorite players.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:21 PM
Lebron choked again.... Down 2 at home vs. Atlanta lebron takes a 3, misses and the Heat will lose the game.. If he's the best player on the planet how does he miss that?


And FYI: Joe Johnson outplayed him tonight. Hawkeye you told me JJ wasn't an elite player. I was wondering if you have watched him the last month? After tonight I bet you Lebron thinks he's elite...

JJ isn't elite. One game changes nothing about a player. If it does, then Kevin Love is the best PF in the game, period. :)

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:22 PM
they pretty much lost there whole team from last year. and have a new coach

they did lose their whole team. A certain SF. And thank god they got a new coach, Brown was in the dark

Chronz
01-18-2011, 11:29 PM
Lebron choked again.... Down 2 at home vs. Atlanta lebron takes a 3, misses and the Heat will lose the game.. If he's the best player on the planet how does he miss that?


And FYI: Joe Johnson outplayed him tonight. Hawkeye you told me JJ wasn't an elite player. I was wondering if you have watched him the last month? After tonight I bet you Lebron thinks he's elite...
LMAO yup truly a post worthy of praise. Great analysis bud

How could he miss that shot,HOW???

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:29 PM
they did lose their whole team. A certain SF. And thank god they got a new coach, Brown was in the dark

So lebron was playing 1 on 5 all year and they won 61 games?

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:31 PM
So lebron was playing 1 on 5 all year and they won 61 games?

Nope. But he was able to lead, in principal, the same team that is the worst in the NBA this season, to 121 wins in 2 years.

Now THAT is and intangible....

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:33 PM
Mo williams has been hurt, anderson is out, no west, no shaq, no z, no coach.. None of that is a factor at all? At the start of the season the cavs were playing decent ball

Sixerlover
01-18-2011, 11:36 PM
LeBron has one game winner in his career? Didn't he have 2 in one series against Washington a couple years back?

But back to the topic.. Melo IS one dimensional. He's a scorer. Not that complicated.

Chronz
01-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Mo williams has been hurt, anderson is out, no west, no shaq, no z, no coach.. None of that is a factor at all? At the start of the season the cavs were playing decent ball
Check out the thread where this was discussed, it definitely plays a role its just so inconsequential that its not even worth mentioning. Ill just paraphrase everything from that thread. Anyone who mentions AV exposes their bias as he recently went down. Delonte was a nonfactor last year as he was a constant headcase, Big Z played like ****, their coaching situation has been upgraded, they have Antawn Jamison (the alleged star) for a full season,
Shaq often held the team back and theyve had improvements from other players such as Hickson/Boobie, Sessions addition. Simply put, they were able to win at a high level without several of those players so long as they had 1 guy, guess who that was.

I think that about covers it, oh and they were NEVER playing decent ball, dig deeper into your analysis and youll find out why.

Sixerlover
01-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Jeez Lebron had such a terrible game tonight. 34 10 and 7. 15 straight points for his team..What a bum!

:laugh2: Lebron haters are embarrassing.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Mo williams has been hurt, anderson is out, no west, no shaq, no z, no coach.. None of that is a factor at all? At the start of the season the cavs were playing decent ball

not really. Mo Williams? yuck. Anderson JUST went out. Shaq and Z actually killed them come playoff time. Brown is a horrible coach.

They played "decent" ball (since you consider it that) against horrible competition.

Taking LeBron off that team will set them back 3-4 years minimum. Really no arguing it.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:41 PM
Check out the thread where this was discussed, it definitely plays a role its just so inconsequential that its not even worth mentioning. Ill just paraphrase everything from that thread. Anyone who mentions AV exposes their bias as he recently went down. Delonte was a nonfactor last year as he was a constant headcase, Big Z played like ****, their coaching situation has been upgraded, they have Antawn Jamison (the alleged star) for a full season,
Shaq often held the team back and theyve had improvements from other players such as Hickson/Boobie, Sessions addition. Simply put, they were able to win at a high level without several of those players so long as they had 1 guy, guess who that was.

I think that about covers it, oh and they were NEVER playing decent ball, dig deeper into your analysis and youll find out why.

This is why i cant have a debate about Lebron, its always an excuse.. You people wont let Lebron earn the tittle of greatest player on the planet. You just want to give it to him... Everything you said up there was an excuse. Your telling me Lebron played 1 on 5...

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:44 PM
ok guys.. you have convinced me that Lebron is the greatest player ever. He doesnt even need good players on his team to win 61 twice...

Chronz
01-18-2011, 11:48 PM
This is why i cant have a debate about Lebron, its always an excuse..
You cant debate because you dont know how to combat these "excuses" aside from calling them excuses.


You people wont let Lebron earn the tittle of greatest player on the planet. You just want to give it to him... Everything you said up there was an excuse. Your telling me Lebron played 1 on 5...
Nope show me where I said he played 1 on 5. Again you cant debate because you lack the comprehension. Everything I said was justifiable and backed by concrete evidence. The fact that you THINK they played decent ball was especially damning.

Chronz
01-18-2011, 11:48 PM
ok guys.. you have convinced me that Lebron is the greatest player ever. He doesnt even need good players on his team to win 61 twice...
Let me hep you understand what we are saying. He needs the least amount of help to win 60+ games than anyone in the league.

nickdymez
01-18-2011, 11:50 PM
Let me hep you understand what we are saying. He needs the least amount of help to win 60+ games than anyone in the league.

ok you win... I cant debate... lol

Chill_Will_24
01-19-2011, 12:18 AM
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/shaun_powell/01/18/melo-franchise/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1


I am not sure what the Execs are referencing, but out of 30 teams, it seems only 2 (Nuggets and Nets) are really high on him, the Knicks, Bulls and Mavs will like to have him but not at a hefty price.

Dam!!! Who is that on your sig???

3RDASYSTEM
01-19-2011, 12:22 AM
At the end of the day MELO is no doubt Superstar material,end of topic
Dude got robbed ROY or at the least CO-ROY and if not mistaken PO's every season since his inception

And for the sakeof sport debating we all gonna make excuses or find a reason to why our fav or the best(rather we agree or not)player doesnt get it done, as i've said before HAKEEM/LEBRON/AI had the weakest 'support' cast to reach Finals in past 15/20yrs and it was AI-BRON-HAKEEM weakest to strongest supporting cast in that order cuz CASSELL could go and he had a old but still reliable CLYDE for that 2nd title, its funny how CHRONZ and HAWKEYE bring up LEBRONS talent he played with,of course it was shaky,anyone who has played organized/park ball would know that.. i been saying this every debate outside of PSD ...but the only diff is why i big up AI is he won a game against that LAKER dynasty and LEBRON got swept by that SPURS one,wat makes it even funnier is WADE said last season after being ousted by CELTS is that a tru SUPERSTAR wins at least 1 game in a playoff series, does that hold water wat WADE said?im trying to figure this one out

JasonJohnHorn
01-19-2011, 12:37 AM
Can Melo be the best player on a championship team? Can Dirk? Can Bosh? Sure, each of those guys can, it just depends on how the GM builds the team around them.


Melo, Bosh and Dirk, are all arguably better than any player on the Pistons' '04 championship team, no? So you CAN win a title with players less talented (though there was more talent in the starting five than any starting five Melo, Bosh and Dirk have played for leading up to this season).

If Deven had picked up a guy like Krover or Kapono to spread the floor, and a dominant interior defenders like Ben Wallace Prime, then yeah, Melo could lead a roster like that to a title, but wth Nene, Martin and Camby being injured so much each season, and no true PG until Billups came, Melo never really had a team.


I understand the 'Nique comparison, but I just think Melo is better than 'Nique.


That said, I understand why a GM wouldnt look to give up too much to pick up Melo. Unless you could add him to a competative roster without giving up core pieces, it would be pointless to add him.


Than again... Igudala for Melo? hmm...

rhino17
01-19-2011, 01:26 AM
Actually Morey does agree with me. I am sorry it was too long for you, but if you think Morey would sell the farm to get Melo as his feature player, you are wrong


This March in Boston, there will be vast halls full of stat geeks, any number of whom might tell you it's nutty to expect Anthony to make a bad team good. But that MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference is organized by Dork Elvis himself, Rockets GM Daryl Morey, who commands the biggest team of analysts in the sport.

There is no case to be made that the Rockets don't appreciate the lessons of modern basketball analysis. In assessing Anthony, it's worth noting that Morey has repeatedly spoken about how elite scorers are necessary to win titles. It's also worth noting that Morey has reportedly been dogged in his pursuit of Anthony. If true, it's a powerful message that at the highest levels of statistical analysis, Anthony can indeed be seen as worth a maximum contract.

http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/23950/carmelo-anthony-superstar

Hawkeye15
01-19-2011, 01:45 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/23950/carmelo-anthony-superstar

how does that refute what I have said?

Raph12
01-19-2011, 02:51 AM
In his defence, he's the most complete scorer in the league today...

nickdymez
01-19-2011, 01:39 PM
That's one of the criticisms that he has though. Without Karl, that team fell apart. Carmelo doesn't have what it takes to be the leader of a team. I don't think they lost because they were outcoached, I think they lost because they weren't driven enough to win.



You could debate intelligently instead of saying "wow" or accusing people of being haters just because they disagree with you. Or maybe you can't, I don't know.

Ok buddy.. There is no debating Lebron lovers...

Giraffes Rule
01-19-2011, 03:31 PM
Ok buddy.. There is no debating Lebron lovers...

Lebron lover? :laugh: Oh man that's a good one.