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View Full Version : Point Guards should be held at the same standard as big men



AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:21 PM
We all know that the golden standard of a big man is 10 boards. If your not pulling ten boards a game, your not getting it done.

I believe it should be the same for a point guard, except with assists. If a point guard is not dishing at at least 10 assists per game, her should be put in the same class as a big man that doesnt pull 10 rebounds, because thats what a point guard should do!

what are your thoughts on this?

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
you can't just label a number or a single stat for achievement.

abe_froman
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
says who? thats as arbitrarily a standard as rebounds

the only thing that matters or should matter is if they are helping win the game or not.if your only avg. 6 apg,so what? your helping your team win and i'd rather have that then avg 15 in losing efforts

jacobwilson222
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
A great point guard should be able to do that... I think they are looked at in that way already.

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 06:24 PM
A great point guard should be able to do that... I think they are looked at in that way already.

you don't need to average 10 assists to be a great PG

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:28 PM
im just saying, when people criticize an all star caliber big man for not averaging 10 rebounds, i think the same criticism could be made for a point guard who doesnt dish out 10 assists

black1605
01-14-2011, 06:28 PM
You can get rebounds at both ends of the court, you can only get assists on the offensive end.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-14-2011, 06:32 PM
im just saying, when people criticize an all star caliber big man for not averaging 10 rebounds, i think the same criticism could be made for a point guard who doesnt dish out 10 assists

Average team apg in nba ~20
Average team rpg in nba ~45

Here's your answer

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:32 PM
aaaaaand here comes the people whos fav point guard doesnt average atleast 10 assists to protect there dude

abe_froman
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
im just saying, when people criticize an all star caliber big man for not averaging 10 rebounds, i think the same criticism could be made for a point guard who doesnt dish out 10 assists

assists are dependent on what your teammates do,say they arent good shooters.so your a sucky pg because they cant shoot for **** even with open looks? besides there's no set standard to what counts as an assist,it completely up to the scorer on what counts and what doesnt. which can lead to scenario's of a scorer liking a guy so he counts everything,no matter how dubious as an assist or the opposite.and its not against the rules to do that

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
heres what im trying to say. there are great PLAYERS thats play the point guard position (rose, westbrook) , and then there are great POINT GUARDS (Kidd in his prime, Nash, ect)

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
im just saying, when people criticize an all star caliber big man for not averaging 10 rebounds, i think the same criticism could be made for a point guard who doesnt dish out 10 assists

if that is the entire basis for their argument on a player not being great, then they have already failed.

black1605
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
aaaaaand here comes the people whos fav point guard doesnt average atleast 10 assists to protect there dude


Their*

And no, it has nothing to do with that. It is clearly harder to average ten assists.

P.S. How do you know who my favorite point guard is?

Gators123
01-14-2011, 06:35 PM
Just want to point out that Billups doesn't even have a career average of 6 APG. He didn't even average 6 in the 04 season either.

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 06:35 PM
heres what im trying to say. there are great PLAYERS thats play the point guard position (rose, westbrook) , and then there are great POINT GUARDS (Kidd in his prime, Nash, ect)

you are trying to apply your definition of "pure" PG is all.
Fact is, Rondo, Kidd, and Nash can't do what Westbrook and Rose can do as far as shot creation for themselves. As a coach, and PG, it is your job to put your team in the best position to score points efficiently. If you have a PG with elite scoring ability, you use it. If Rose wanted to average 12 assists a game he could, but it won't help his team.

Like I said, you can't just use a single per game stat to measure whether a player is great or not, regardless of position.

nitric
01-14-2011, 06:35 PM
It's easier for a big man to get rebounds on the offensive AND defensive side of the court. Assists are strictly offensive and mainly depend on your team and set plays.

THE MTL
01-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Average team apg in nba ~20
Average team rpg in nba ~45

Here's your answer

AMaZING! End thread now.

It is much easier to get a rebound than an assist.

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:41 PM
you are trying to apply your definition of "pure" PG is all.
Fact is, Rondo, Kidd, and Nash can't do what Westbrook and Rose can do as far as shot creation for themselves. As a coach, and PG, it is your job to put your team in the best position to score points efficiently. If you have a PG with elite scoring ability, you use it. If Rose wanted to average 12 assists a game he could, but it won't help his team.

Like I said, you can't just use a single per game stat to measure whether a player is great or not, regardless of position.

good arguement.

i just wanted discussion about this topic. im not particularly stubborn about my opinion on this

jacobwilson222
01-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Well any great point guard in the right system can average 10 assist per game... Just depends if the PG is forced to carrie his team or has enough around him to be able to pass first.

sep11ie
01-14-2011, 06:41 PM
You cant force a teammate to make a shot bro.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-14-2011, 06:43 PM
aaaaaand here comes the people whos fav point guard doesnt average atleast 10 assists to protect there dude

a.i

Lake_Show2416
01-14-2011, 06:46 PM
Ya very similar.... though I do think the "standards" for assist amounts should be a little lower compared to rebounding 10 since I think it's slighty harder to get

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 06:48 PM
10 assists? That's ***** stuff. Pure PG's need to avg 15 assists at minimum to even be considered a point guard. So yeah, Rondo is almost there. The rest are just 'guards' in my mind.

Same goes for big men (15 rebounds that is). so Kevin Love, you are the only true Big man in my eyes.

jp611
01-14-2011, 06:50 PM
so that means that only rondo and nash are great PGs by your standards

BkOriginalOne
01-14-2011, 06:56 PM
No, because based on the way the average human grows there will always be a plethora of PGs and a handful of centers.
There are simply not enough 7 foot talent to sift through.

magichatnumber9
01-14-2011, 06:59 PM
I don't think ten assists is asking your point guard all that much seriously.

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 07:02 PM
I don't think ten assists is asking your point guard all that much seriously.

kinda hard when your assist depends on your teammate making minimal moves and actually scoring. Well at least when you have Keith Bogans on your team.

HoopsDrive
01-14-2011, 07:08 PM
Average team apg in nba ~20
Average team rpg in nba ~45

Here's your answer

Pretty much. Plus the fact that many have already stated: you can get boards on defense and offense while assists are strictly offensive and rely on your teammate actually scoring so you get one.

Sadds The Gr8
01-14-2011, 07:10 PM
easier said than done...its harder to get assists than rebounds

Catoblepas
01-14-2011, 07:11 PM
I think that 8 assists per game would be good enough.. depending on your team of course... remember that teams try to swing the ball and make plays still.. rebounding comes from within.. you gotta go get those boards and alot of the time throw some bows lol

D1JM
01-14-2011, 07:12 PM
I don't think ten assists is asking your point guard all that much seriously.

How Many payees have averaged 10 assist per game for their career? I can only think of two, magic and Stockton.

D1JM
01-14-2011, 07:16 PM
Ha, I was right. Only Stockton and magic have Avg more than 10 assist per game for their career.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_career_*** ists_leaders

tr3ymill3r
01-14-2011, 07:20 PM
It's all going to depend on the team and what is asked of the PG. Some teams need more scoring from the PG position based on the others around him. Not to mention they don't give out assists like the do in hockey, sometimes the pass the initiates the other pass is most crucial.

LanceUpperCut
01-14-2011, 07:22 PM
A great point guard does what he needs to do to get a win for his team. Run an effective offense, whether it leads to assist or not .

KingPosey
01-14-2011, 07:37 PM
aaaaaand here comes the people whos fav point guard doesnt average atleast 10 assists to protect there dude

considering that what, only 2 players in the whole league average 10+ assists a game this year, i think the thread starter has an unrealistic point of view.
So he is either a Boston fan or Suns fan.

Chicagofaithful
01-14-2011, 07:44 PM
rebounds are something you can control individually, assists are dependent upon others ability to finish a shot. The notion that the two should be equated is outrageous. theres a reason rebounds are easier to come by than assists.

NYMetros
01-14-2011, 07:49 PM
you are trying to apply your definition of "pure" PG is all.
Fact is, Rondo, Kidd, and Nash can't do what Westbrook and Rose can do as far as shot creation for themselves. As a coach, and PG, it is your job to put your team in the best position to score points efficiently. If you have a PG with elite scoring ability, you use it. If Rose wanted to average 12 assists a game he could, but it won't help his team.

Like I said, you can't just use a single per game stat to measure whether a player is great or not, regardless of position.

I was going to say the same thing for the most part, but you articulated it much better than I could have. Good post.

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 07:50 PM
just want to add to this, that Jason Kidd will be a top point guard in this league til the day he cannot walk

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-14-2011, 07:51 PM
^^ Agreed...but you also have to think about this as well. Averaging 10 assists per game is much more of an accomplishment than averaging 10 rebounds a game.

Also, your girlfriend is pretty hot...nice work.

(Message for ChiFaithful...I wasnt referring to Ricky Rubio)

MackShock
01-14-2011, 07:52 PM
assists are almost a useless stat...its just counting how many times u passed the ball to someone. although i give props, it motivates point guards to become incredibly crafty and creative in achieving these numbers!

that being said, i think its more important that a point guard can defend..2 or 3 steals per game is beastin! assists i would say..if your doing 7+ per game your okay.

Knickrocketsfan
01-14-2011, 07:56 PM
you are trying to apply your definition of "pure" PG is all.
Fact is, Rondo, Kidd, and Nash can't do what Westbrook and Rose can do as far as shot creation for themselves. As a coach, and PG, it is your job to put your team in the best position to score points efficiently. If you have a PG with elite scoring ability, you use it. If Rose wanted to average 12 assists a game he could, but it won't help his team.

Like I said, you can't just use a single per game stat to measure whether a player is great or not, regardless of position.

lmao.. rose is not a pure point guard. Even if he wanted to he would struggle to average 9 assist per game.

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 08:05 PM
lmao.. rose is not a pure point guard. Even if he wanted to he would struggle to average 9 assist per game.

+ 1 he doesn't have the court vision

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 08:08 PM
lmao.. rose is not a pure point guard. Even if he wanted to he would struggle to average 9 assist per game.

I don't believe he would struggle to average 9 assists considering he's averaging 8 right now (along with the fact that he's the number 1 option on our team). It's not like he hasn't posted 10+ assists in games before. He may not be a pure pg, depending on one's definition, but you can't just say he would struggle, without some backing statements. I'm not saying Rose is god, and by no means is his court vision better than those like Nash, Rondo, Kidd, etc. But come one man! give me some reasons as to why you believe he would struggle



+ 1 he doesn't have the court vision
I feel like he has shown his capability as far as court vision. Also, his ability to go in the air and still find someone open during that whole transition should be some kind of proof that his court vision isn't awful. Is court vision something you're born with or something you can develop?

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 08:12 PM
i dont believe rose would struggle to get nine assists if he wanted to considering the fact that hes just a fraction away right now...

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 08:14 PM
aaaaaand here comes the people whos fav point guard doesnt average atleast 10 assists to protect there dude

pretty much

abe_froman
01-14-2011, 08:16 PM
pretty much

only 2 pg's are avg 10 or more apg this season.so every other pg in the league is crap?

Knickrocketsfan
01-14-2011, 08:20 PM
I don't believe he would struggle to average 9 assists considering he's averaging 8 right now (along with the fact that he's the number 1 option on our team). It's not like he hasn't posted 10+ assists in games before. He may not be a pure pg, depending on one's definition, but you can't just say he would struggle, without some backing statements. I'm not saying Rose is god, and by no means is his court vision better than those like Nash, Rondo, Kidd, etc. But come one man! give me some reasons as to why you believe he would struggle



I feel like he has shown his capability as far as court vision. Also, his ability to go in the air and still find someone open during that whole transition should be some kind of proof that his court vision isn't awful. Is court vision something you're born with or something you can develop?

hey I love rose but I really consider him a combo guard who is a great passer. My problem with rose is he will have those high assist games then will throw up a couple of stinkers where he has 5 or six assist. Rose had a 1 assist game. At no time during the year should a point guard playing his minutes have 1 assist.

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 08:27 PM
hey I love rose but I really consider him a combo guard who is a great passer. My problem with rose is he will have those high assist games then will throw up a couple of stinkers where he has 5 or six assist. Rose had a 1 assist game. At no time during the year should a point guard playing his minutes have 1 assist.

for sure, i won't argue the combo guard thing as i can see what people mean by that. And true, your pg should never have 1 assist ever. I would like to see more consistency from rose as far as avgs. I agree I'm not a fan of those dips and such. His TO needs to improve to. He's still developing. But still, I don't feel it would be a struggle for him to avg 9 assists as he's shown he's almost there. I see what you're sayin though.


pretty much

I'm not trying to 'protect' D Rose. He's not the greatest, and may not be a pure pg.

I just don't agree with OP's comment that pg's need to avg 10 assist just as big men need to avg 10 reb. Easier to come by rebounds than assists. Assists not only depend on the pg, but whoever is shooting the ball as well.

I also don't believe he would struggle to avg 9 assists a game.

feel free to discuss, i'm always open to hearing opinions as long as they're well thought and hold substance.

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 08:39 PM
only 2 pg's are avg 10 or more apg this season.so every other pg in the league is crap?

tell me where in my post i said that

Chicagofaithful
01-14-2011, 08:47 PM
i was going to say the same thing for the most part, but you articulated it much better than i could have. Good post.

+1

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 08:51 PM
lmao.. rose is not a pure point guard. Even if he wanted to he would struggle to average 9 assist per game.

if your definition of a "pure" PG is that of a player who doesn't score a lot of points (which is usually indicative of their inability to do so) yet gets a lot of assists, then you now force that player to pass first, second, and third (such as early career Kidd, and now Rondo). But a PG's REAL job is to run an offense. Period. Get points for their team efficiently in any way possible.
So, your version of a "pure" PG is your own.

Rose averages 8.1 per night. Rose's assist percentage (% of assisted baskets while on the floor), has gone from 28, to 30, to 39 this season. Is it really that far of a stretch to think a 22 year old PG with an upward trend in assists/distribution skills, will continue that way? Rose will get over 10 a night.

And the real debate here is, no one stat should define how you measure the effectiveness of player A at their position.

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 08:56 PM
I don't think there is any debate that a PG's job is to run an offense.

So, since Rondo could probably never average 20 ppg without hurting his team, should we penalize him?

Of course not.

But that is what some love to do to Rose, Westbrook, or any PG who can score in the flow of a team's offense.

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 08:57 PM
heres what im trying to say. there are great PLAYERS thats play the point guard position (rose, westbrook) , and then there are great POINT GUARDS (Kidd in his prime, Nash, ect)

Then call out who you want to call out. Dont try to beat around the bush. You don't think rose or westbrook are great pgs. But rondo is. What ever! Kinda how I feel love is vastly overrated with bloated stats. So what!

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 08:58 PM
Then call out who you want to call out. Dont try to beat around the bush. You don't think rose or westbrook are great pgs. But rondo is. What ever! Kinda how I feel love is vastly overrated with bloated stats. So what!

honestly I doubt that was his motive. The dude likes Rubio a lot, and he was simply stating a fact, that from other threads, many criticize any big man who doesn't get 10 rpg as not being elite.

I have never seen him going Rose/Westbrook bashing

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 09:03 PM
I think its funny so many hate on rose. He's a humble hard working kid with a good head on his shoulders. And most gms from your favorite teams would blow up half the roster to get him.

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 09:09 PM
yo big worm chill, i got yo money

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 09:14 PM
only 2 pg's are avg 10 or more apg this season.so every other pg in the league is crap?

where do u get this from?? If i can vote for an MVP this season so far my vote would go to Rose, but do I think hes a great point guard? no. is he a great player? yes

bholly
01-14-2011, 09:26 PM
I actually agree with the OP. Also the benchmark for great scorers should be 10 points per game, and to be considered a great shot blocker you need 10 blocks per game.

John Walls Era
01-14-2011, 09:56 PM
I think the main reason why its not like this is because Assists depends on 2 players. I don't want to elaborate, but its self explanatory.

Kyben36
01-14-2011, 10:00 PM
We all know that the golden standard of a big man is 10 boards. If your not pulling ten boards a game, your not getting it done.

I believe it should be the same for a point guard, except with assists. If a point guard is not dishing at at least 10 assists per game, her should be put in the same class as a big man that doesnt pull 10 rebounds, because thats what a point guard should do!

what are your thoughts on this?

thats ********, because assist have more to do with than just effort. depends on defense ( how they defend you, whether thye are playing on you to stop you, or to stop you from distributing and playing 1-1. ) team ( how your team plays can effect your assist total. considering that it only goes in the statbook when they make it. having tallent around you realy helps ).

Rebounds, are typicaly effort based. if you fight for rebounds, 10 isnt hard to get.

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 10:15 PM
yo big worm chill, i got yo money

lol. Playing wut rose is like playing with my emotions....pot~ nah

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 10:15 PM
^lmaoo

I don't think there is any debate that a PG's job is to run an offense.

So, since Rondo could probably never average 20 ppg without hurting his team, should we penalize him?

Of course not.

But that is what some love to do to Rose, Westbrook, or any PG who can score in the flow of a team's offense.

he did average 20 against the bulls along with a triple double in that playoff series the other year

D1JM
01-14-2011, 10:15 PM
some people just dont understand that rose is our #1 scoring option. He creates our offensive not just by getting some assist, but making some baskets too.

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 10:19 PM
some people just dont understand that rose is our #1 scoring option. He creates our offensive not just by getting some assist, but making some baskets too.

he's amazing

D1JM
01-14-2011, 10:21 PM
^lmaoo


he did average 20 against the bulls along with a triple double in that playoff series the other year

oh you mean his rookie season.


he's amazing

seems like it. everywhere someone says rose, you're there.

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 10:26 PM
oh you mean his rookie season.


Rondo averaged 20 against the Bulls in his second year that playoff series


seems like it. everywhere someone says rose, you're there.

no doubt D1RoseJM

Hawkeye15
01-14-2011, 10:29 PM
^lmaoo


he did average 20 against the bulls along with a triple double in that playoff series the other year

so? a small sample size proves nothing in relation to trends. Anthony Peeler averaged 30 a night against the Sonics. Cool

D1JM
01-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Rondo averaged 20 against the Bulls in his second year that playoff series

too bad he couldnt lead his team to the playoffs the first year he got drafted. Allen and KG had to come and help him out to make playoffs. What was the celtics record the year before the big three form? 24-58.

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 10:33 PM
i dont tihnk theres any debate that Rajon Rondo is a better POINT GUARD then d rose. is he a better player? thats where the debate begins

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 10:35 PM
so? a small sample size proves nothing in relation to trends. Anthony Peeler averaged 30 a night against the Sonics. Cool

he averaged 16 ppg last year in the playoffs while dishing out 9 assists and the whole squad was playing


too bad he couldnt lead his team to the playoffs the first year he got drafted. Allen and KG had to come and help him out to make playoffs. What was the celtics record the year before the big three form? 24-58.

yea too bad he won a championship :laugh2:

D1JM
01-14-2011, 10:41 PM
yea too bad he won a championship :laugh2:

lucky him :clap:

Bullsfan22
01-14-2011, 10:46 PM
bad thread assist are dependent on the person not only taking the shot but making it. The point guards that is averaging 10 assist is ELITE play makers/passers.

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 10:47 PM
Rondos very good. But the celts would trade him for rose in a heartbeat. That says it all

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 10:50 PM
Rondos very good. But the celts would trade him for rose in a heartbeat. That says it all

no they wouldn't

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 10:54 PM
no they wouldn't

:rolleyes: sure they wouldn't.

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 10:55 PM
no they wouldn't

yes they would

Hustlenomics
01-14-2011, 11:03 PM
:rolleyes: sure they wouldn't.

ok Big Perm


yes they would

they gave him an extension because they like him and he's here to stay plus we need point guards that would rather get the rest of the players involved and doesn't care about "going for his" first

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 11:09 PM
lol whens the last time a thread about point guards wasnt turned into a Rose vs Rondo thing? LOL.

I like that now Rose has Carlos Boozer on his team, who at this stage of his career is better then KG, and that they have a center who is better then there center in Joakim Noah. Rose has a nice young good team around him now. You cant compare teams player by player when u wanna argue who has the better team and everything. But i think its fair that this time in the playoffs, if they are to meet, Bulls fans would be v@ginas if they continue to use the "rondo has a better team around him" thing. Hes clearly the best player on that team right now.

Now lets see which player will take his team further

BIG worm
01-14-2011, 11:12 PM
Ricky rubio looks like milhouse.

chicago lulz
01-14-2011, 11:15 PM
ok Big Perm



they gave him an extension because they like him and he's here to stay plus we need point guards that would rather get the rest of the players involved and doesn't care about "going for his" first

So the 1st scoring option of a team shouldn't try to go for his. And why do you believe Rose doesn't try to get his teammates involved?

AI4MVP
01-15-2011, 12:08 AM
Ricky rubio looks like milhouse.

he also owned your boy when they played in the World Championships

nightBULL
01-15-2011, 12:09 AM
A good point gaurd isn't a player who get a lot of assists, its a player that runs the team's offense well. Not all offenses are designed with the PG as just a distributor (like Boston is with Rondo). Scoring PGs still bring the ball up court and initiate the offense no different than a pass first PG. What happens after the play is set in motion has a lot to do with what stats a player, in this case a PG, will be more likely to accumulate. THE SYSTEM HAS MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN YOU THINK.

BUT an offense is or at least aims to be built around its players strengths. Is a coach like Tom Thibodeau wrong for noticing Derrick Rose is a dominant scorer and building an offense that allows him to get a few more looks? Rose still bring the ball up court and sets the play in motion but a lot of the times the play Rose sets in motion aims to get him an open look or a path to the basket.

One of the reasons Rajon Rondo looks so good as a PG is because Doc Rivers realized Rondo wasn't the greatest shooter and designed an offense that didn't ask him to. Thats not to discredit Rondo at all because he executes his role very well.

I remember during the 04-05 season Brevin Knight and Jason Hart were picking up around 15 assists a game. Those players weren't dominant players by any means, but the Bobcats offense was built around using the PG position strictly to distribute the ball.



Don't hate the player, hate the game!

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 12:18 AM
he averaged 16 ppg last year in the playoffs while dishing out 9 assists and the whole squad was playing

cool. So how are you possibly going to refute my argument that a player like Rondo would not help his team if he was forced to score 20+ a night??

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 12:32 AM
cool. So how are you possibly going to refute my argument that a player like Rondo would not help his team if he was forced to score 20+ a night??

it helped them get by the Bulls and we won't know for sure until kg,pierce,and allen is gone

NokomisLiving
01-15-2011, 01:05 AM
Well yeah an assist is dependant on A) The passer B) The person recieving and shooting the ball, But come on it's the NBA. It's a professional league with professional players that know at the very LEAST the basics of a jump shot. The worst team in the NBA still averages 91.08 points and game, and basically 2,3 points= Assist. Obviously there are 1 on 1 iso's and tip backs and whatever but that still leaves a lot of opportunity for an assist to happen and I think although 10 sounds very high, it's not ridiculous to want the player that sets up/runs the offense and the player that handles the ball the most responsible for a good amount of those assist's.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 01:08 AM
it helped them get by the Bulls and we won't know for sure until kg,pierce,and allen is gone

well we already know that if Rondo pushes his own offense, the C's don't fair well. Its kinda been recorded...

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 01:39 AM
well we already know that if Rondo pushes his own offense, the C's don't fair well. Its kinda been recorded...

like when he dropped 20 points in game 6 to beat the Lakers by 40

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 01:52 AM
like when he dropped 20 points in game 6 to beat the Lakers by 40

if you like to base your evaluations on a handful of games versus 82+ a season, you are not looking at it right.
You point out one good game in the playoffs? I am pretty sure its just as easy to point out some pretty bad ones.

sargon21
01-15-2011, 01:52 AM
when you have to pull singular examples out to show someone's a good scorer, that's when you know they're not a good scorer...

finalverse
01-15-2011, 01:55 AM
except you need your peeps to make the shots when you give them assists so it can't be held to the same standard.

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 02:15 AM
if you like to base your evaluations on a handful of games versus 82+ a season, you are not looking at it right.
You point out one good game in the playoffs? I am pretty sure its just as easy to point out some pretty bad ones.

show me stats for an 82 game season where Rondo was counted on to score and took a lot of shots doing so (btw i find it a good thing to have a good game in the most important game of the playoffs)

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 02:19 AM
show me stats for an 82 game season where Rondo was counted on to score and took a lot of shots doing so (btw i find it a good thing to have a good game in the most important game of the playoffs)

there are no stats that point out that any NBA team would use Rondo as a scorer for 82 games. He is used purely as a facilitator due to his totally inept jumpshot and free throw accuracy.

And you can be totally pumped about a single playoff game. But Rondo has never been an efficient scorer in the slightest, no matter what time of year it is.

AI4MVP
01-15-2011, 02:20 AM
Rose is a far better scorer. not just far better then rondo, but maybe better then anyone in the league.

but rondo is a better passer and has better court vision

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 02:26 AM
there are no stats that point out that any NBA team would use Rondo as a scorer for 82 games. He is used purely as a facilitator due to his totally inept jumpshot and free throw accuracy.

And you can be totally pumped about a single playoff game. But Rondo has never been an efficient scorer in the slightest, no matter what time of year it is.

shoots 50% for his career and the jumpshot has improved and he's doing whats right to lead the Celtics to wins and they just went to the finals so I'm fine with what he's doing

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-15-2011, 06:59 AM
I actually agree with the OP. Also the benchmark for great scorers should be 10 points per game, and to be considered a great shot blocker you need 10 blocks per game.

lol

DitchDat
01-15-2011, 07:17 AM
some point guards ain't good enough defensively to earn enough playing time to get 10 assists. A point guard is a player who sets up his team mates and runs the show. There shouldn't be a number put on what a PG does.

Niro
01-15-2011, 10:25 AM
i think you cant say 10 rbs= 10 ast
lets say the 10 boards standard is 7.5 assists and a good/great rebounder with 12.5 boards starts around 9 assists for a great pg (in terms of assists)

Crackadalic
01-15-2011, 10:28 AM
You don't have to dish out 10 dimes per game to be a good pg. Derrick rose doesnt dish out double digit assist but he is a top 3 pg

Rose-For-Prez
01-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Celtics fans who hate on Rose amuse me. I mean I see your arguement on how Rondo is so much better then Rose since Rose is heading the MVP race this year and Rondo will never be in the discussion. The fact that Rose is the only player in the NBA who is top 10 in scoring and top 10 in assists. And maybe the fact that the only reason Rondo is doing as good as he does is because he is playing with 4 first ballot hall of famers.

But about the thread assists are alot harder to get then rebounds. So I think 8-9 would be a better number to go by for a top point guard.

STAT1
01-15-2011, 11:09 AM
This is all coming from a guy that has a picture of Rubio under a list of hall of famers.

LakersIn5
01-15-2011, 12:13 PM
it is easier to get a rebound that to get an assist.

northsider
01-15-2011, 12:15 PM
I see assists just like RBI's in baseball it is a pretty big team dependent stat. I don't even really know why it is so heavily weighted on. If you have a team of garbage shooters why should you be faulted even when your making good passes and hitting open guys.

Knickrocketsfan
01-15-2011, 12:48 PM
This is what the problem with a lot of bulls fans statements, a lot of you guys are saying that rose is the NUMBER 1 option on the team. That is the first red flag that should be drawn. A pure point guard should never be the first option on a team. Correct me if im wrong please b/c I have not really check my facts with this statement, but when has a point guard been the number one scoring option on their team and won a title???

Just look at cp3, yes he is not averaging 10 assist per game (9.8) but he is an excellent scorer and I believe if he changed from a pass first point guard to a scoring guard could average 22 a game. but he does not. He has people like ariza and west who he lets become the top scoring options.

Rose IMO does not have to be the number one option on the team n e more. In the beginning of the season sure, but now I dont think so. Boozer should be the number one option he is a heck of a forward and can score from many angles.

northsider
01-15-2011, 02:18 PM
This is what the problem with a lot of bulls fans statements, a lot of you guys are saying that rose is the NUMBER 1 option on the team. That is the first red flag that should be drawn. A pure point guard should never be the first option on a team. Correct me if im wrong please b/c I have not really check my facts with this statement, but when has a point guard been the number one scoring option on their team and won a title???

Just look at cp3, yes he is not averaging 10 assist per game (9.8) but he is an excellent scorer and I believe if he changed from a pass first point guard to a scoring guard could average 22 a game. but he does not. He has people like ariza and west who he lets become the top scoring options.

Rose IMO does not have to be the number one option on the team n e more. In the beginning of the season sure, but now I dont think so. Boozer should be the number one option he is a heck of a forward and can score from many angles.

I think Rose def. uses Boozer allot to help him out. Rose is just a impossible player to put in perspective cause of his talents aren't 100% fitting to the description of a PG. When it is all said and done though Rose is something that noone on our team is outside of Boozer and that is consistent.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 02:34 PM
shoots 50% for his career and the jumpshot has improved and he's doing whats right to lead the Celtics to wins and they just went to the finals so I'm fine with what he's doing

I have no idea who you ever think you can convince someone that Rondo is an efficient scorer. He still shoots half his attempts at the rim (and that indeed inflates his field goal percentage). He still hits 30% from mid range (10-15 feet), and is left alone to roam all night without the ball.
Look, Rondo is a tremendous passing PG, and a very good facilitator. I am simply refuting the fact that you say he is a good scorer. And he has slightly improved his long ball, but his free throw percentage is legendary bad, especially for a PG. On top of that he turns the ball over way too much, so his overall offensive rating is the lowest its been in 4 years.

If you want to pull out a tiny sample size of games, you are not showing me, or anyone else here, anything. Nothing. At all.

THEY went to the finals. THEY won a ring. He is just part of it, he is not leading it. Don't be turning into another one of those guys on PSD who gives individual evaluations, and when all else fails, you hinge it on his stacked team's overall success.

I do agree that if Chicago called Boston right now and offered Rose, Boston would say no. There is no reason to upset the culture in these next two years as the Celtics window closes. However, if Boston called up Chicago and offered Rondo for Rose, the Bulls front office would fall over laughing.

blueplanet
01-15-2011, 02:47 PM
No.

nitric
01-15-2011, 02:48 PM
Why are people even judging Rose on if he's a PG or not? Dude is in his 3rd year and 22 years old, he has yet to hit his prime.

Pluvious
01-15-2011, 02:50 PM
It's all going to depend on the team and what is asked of the PG. Some teams need more scoring from the PG position based on the others around him. Not to mention they don't give out assists like the do in hockey, sometimes the pass the initiates the other pass is most crucial.

Not really though. A point guard can go and score and also look to pass in the same play. It just takes skill and the right mentality. Only the great point guards actually do it (Paul, Williams, Nash). The rest of the pg's people "think" are great point guards are more limited on offense (Rondo/Kidd lack a consistent shot, Westbrook/Rose lack that natural pass mentality to "setup" their teamates). It really is a skill. Williams is borderline as well. More of a shooter than passer.

And nothing wrong with being more of a scorer than pg. But a good pg can make it easier on teamates to get offense, while a good scorer can get those points himself. Apples and Oranges. Both work.

BHF
01-15-2011, 04:47 PM
Steve Nash
Career 1051 31.3 .490 .430 .904 3.0 8.4 14.6
damn you nash only 8.4 assists

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 05:26 PM
I have no idea who you ever think you can convince someone that Rondo is an efficient scorer. He still shoots half his attempts at the rim (and that indeed inflates his field goal percentage). He still hits 30% from mid range (10-15 feet), and is left alone to roam all night without the ball.
Look, Rondo is a tremendous passing PG, and a very good facilitator. I am simply refuting the fact that you say he is a good scorer. And he has slightly improved his long ball, but his free throw percentage is legendary bad, especially for a PG. On top of that he turns the ball over way too much, so his overall offensive rating is the lowest its been in 4 years.

If you want to pull out a tiny sample size of games, you are not showing me, or anyone else here, anything. Nothing. At all.

THEY went to the finals. THEY won a ring. He is just part of it, he is not leading it. Don't be turning into another one of those guys on PSD who gives individual evaluations, and when all else fails, you hinge it on his stacked team's overall success.

I do agree that if Chicago called Boston right now and offered Rose, Boston would say no. There is no reason to upset the culture in these next two years as the Celtics window closes. However, if Boston called up Chicago and offered Rondo for Rose, the Bulls front office would fall over laughing.

he's shooting where he's best at so it's not inflating his stats..do you see Dwight taking jumpers? Shaq? no because they know their role and Rondo has been the leader on the Celtics for quite some time now when you have KG,Pierce, and Ray Allen saying that..it's true "we just follow what the little guy does" -KG

NokomisLiving
01-15-2011, 05:59 PM
do you see Dwight taking jumpers? Shaq?

No you don't, but if they did they would be better all around players no? Besides they are C's and their job is to live in the paint, get rebounds and clean up misses. Doesn't seem like a good thing when you compare a PG's scoring with two C's. With that said I like Rondo and I'm more of a pass first, set up players kind of guy so I like him but it's the NBA and I really think a starting PG should be able to make jump shots and make free throws.

jim51990
01-15-2011, 06:19 PM
i dont think 10 as a solid number is need but to be a great pg i would say being able to facilitate and run an offense is the key. example d-rose great player not at all great pg

Knickrocketsfan
01-15-2011, 06:52 PM
i dont think 10 as a solid number is need but to be a great pg i would say being able to facilitate and run an offense is the key. example d-rose great player not at all great pg

Rose is a great pg. I ask you the question if lebron,kobe or MJ played the pg position their whole careers and you were ask to name the great pg what would you do.

Even though IMO i think of rose as a great combo guard he plays the pg position. so when I think of great pg i have to put him there. His definition of great will not be the same as Nash or Stockton. When rating pg I guess what I am saying is you need to judge them on different aspect of the game they bring to their team.
Yes I know that I may have contradicted one of my earlier post.:D

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 07:42 PM
he's shooting where he's best at so it's not inflating his stats..do you see Dwight taking jumpers? Shaq? no because they know their role and Rondo has been the leader on the Celtics for quite some time now when you have KG,Pierce, and Ray Allen saying that..it's true "we just follow what the little guy does" -KG

Dwight is a paint player, what is your point? And no, using fg% is for 1st graders. Go use his TS% if you are going to attempt to use any sort of field goal percentage in an argument.

And he doesn't shoot outside often because he knows it hurts his team because he sucks at it. Kinda simple.

And turning the ball over 28% of the possessions you are in the game now kills his offensive rating. Rondo's offensive rating is basically league average.

Why do you keep responding with statistics when you know that is my forte here?

Those three have attempted to instill confidence in Rondo since day 1 in 2008. KG is clearly their leader on both ends. Pierce who they look to for crunch time scoring, and Ray is their set play guys they just run through screens all night, just like he has his entire career. Rondo is their PG who brings the ball up, and creates if needed. THere really is no leader so to speak, they are the definition of team basketball

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 07:57 PM
Dwight is a paint player, what is your point? And no, using fg% is for 1st graders. Go use his TS% if you are going to attempt to use any sort of field goal percentage in an argument.

And he doesn't shoot outside often because he knows it hurts his team because he sucks at it. Kinda simple.

And turning the ball over 28% of the possessions you are in the game now kills his offensive rating. Rondo's offensive rating is basically league average.

Why do you keep responding with statistics when you know that is my forte here?

Those three have attempted to instill confidence in Rondo since day 1 in 2008. KG is clearly their leader on both ends. Pierce who they look to for crunch time scoring, and Ray is their set play guys they just run through screens all night, just like he has his entire career. Rondo is their PG who brings the ball up, and creates if needed. THere really is no leader so to speak, they are the definition of team basketball

lol @ using TS% when everyone knows Rondo is horrible at free throws it's crazy because Shaq seems to shoot them better and there really isn't need for Rondo doesn't have to take a lot of shots but when he's left open he's been hitting them and the turnovers he gets don't even hurt the team the way you're trying to make it look like because he never loses the ball it's from him making fancy passes that the players drop or are a little out of reach or him over passing on a play and KG is the leader on defense imo, even though Perkins claimed Rondo is because of the pressure he puts on point guards up top

Hawkeye15
01-15-2011, 08:02 PM
lol @ using TS% when everyone knows Rondo is horrible at free throws it's crazy because Shaq seems to shoot them better and there really isn't need for Rondo doesn't have to take a lot of shots but when he's left open he's been hitting them and the turnovers he gets don't even hurt the team the way you're trying to make it look like because he never loses the ball it's from him making fancy passes that the players drop or are a little out of reach or him over passing on a play and KG is the leader on defense imo, even though Perkins claimed Rondo is because of the pressure he puts on point guards up top

that is exactly WHY you use TS%. You claim Rondo is an efficient scorer. Free throws are part of scoring. Rondo is very far from being an efficient scorer.

I could care less how he turns it over.

They do hurt the team. But he is surrounded by such a great roster, his mistakes can be covered to a degree.

In summarization, what I have said here about Rondo is exactly why he needs potent scorers and defenders around him. He could not do what Rose or Westbrook do for their teams. The Bulls and Thunder would be worse with him on those teams versus the PG's they currently have. And I think the Celtics would be just as good with either Rose or Westbrook. I understand you don't agree, and I don't really care if you do or not.

There are all types of fans on this site. Homers, foundation only, guys who understand basketball cause they used to play in high school, stat lovers, rational, irrational, whatever. You are among the group that fights for a guy tooth and nail that has so many holes in his game, and is a product of his team play to grow him. Its ok to come out of that protective Rondo shell and admit he sucks really bad at a few things.

Hustlenomics
01-15-2011, 08:09 PM
that is exactly WHY you use TS%. You claim Rondo is an efficient scorer. Free throws are part of scoring. Rondo is very far from being an efficient scorer.

I could care less how he turns it over.

They do hurt the team. But he is surrounded by such a great roster, his mistakes can be covered to a degree.

In summarization, what I have said here about Rondo is exactly why he needs potent scorers and defenders around him. He could not do what Rose or Westbrook do for their teams. The Bulls and Thunder would be worse with him on those teams versus the PG's they currently have. And I think the Celtics would be just as good with either Rose or Westbrook. I understand you don't agree, and I don't really care if you do or not.

There are all types of fans on this site. Homers, foundation only, guys who understand basketball cause they used to play in high school, stat lovers, rational, irrational, whatever. You are among the group that fights for a guy tooth and nail that has so many holes in his game, and is a product of his team play to grow him. Its ok to come out of that protective Rondo shell and admit he sucks really bad at a few things.

Free throws aren't from the field and it's wack against Rondo because he shoots high from the field but he clearly can't hit his free throws and his turnovers aren't hurting the team because they're winning and he just came from the finals last year lol more hypothetical situations that won't happen and are irrelevant wait till the Celtics have a new roster before making judgment on how he will lead his team lol ok he's not a good shooter and he still finds ways to play well despite that you're just trying to make him look out to be a scrub that just passes

Lu's Dynasty
01-15-2011, 08:25 PM
Rondo averaged 20 against the Bulls in his second year that playoff series



no doubt D1RoseJM


Maybe someone later in the thread pointed it out, but I think Rondo was in his third year during that playoff series. Rose was a rookie then.

NokomisLiving
01-16-2011, 12:42 AM
Free throws aren't from the field and it's wack against Rondo

So not being able to draw fouls on the other team's starting players, and make easy points on free throws is "whack" to hold against someone?

bulldog312
01-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Free throws aren't from the field and it's wack against Rondo because he shoots high from the field but he clearly can't hit his free throws and his turnovers aren't hurting the team because they're winning and he just came from the finals last year lol more hypothetical situations that won't happen and are irrelevant wait till the Celtics have a new roster before making judgment on how he will lead his team lol ok he's not a good shooter and he still finds ways to play well despite that you're just trying to make him look out to be a scrub that just passes

Wow, I want to reply to this, but after reading about 3 lines my eyes start to burn. If you want people to take you seriously the first thing you need to do is understand the function of a period. You don't need perfect sentences, but you should at least give the appearance that you've passed 2nd grade.

1-800-STFU
01-16-2011, 12:26 PM
I hate the NBA forum. Why do I torture myself by coming here.

Anecdotal evidence and sports cliches abound. Get a clue people.

kurivaimu
01-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Ridiculous, you can't compare these two stats like this. The fact is that rebounds accour much more in a game than assits. The NBA average team rpg is some 40 while assists are 20..
Think before posting.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2011, 12:43 PM
Free throws aren't from the field and it's wack against Rondo because he shoots high from the field but he clearly can't hit his free throws and his turnovers aren't hurting the team because they're winning and he just came from the finals last year lol more hypothetical situations that won't happen and are irrelevant wait till the Celtics have a new roster before making judgment on how he will lead his team lol ok he's not a good shooter and he still finds ways to play well despite that you're just trying to make him look out to be a scrub that just passes

he is a terrible shooter.

I am trying to make him look like a scrub? Mmkay.

sp1derm00
01-16-2011, 05:44 PM
I would rather have a poing guard that doesn't mind stats and won't mind if you pass up a good shot for a great shot for another team mate after being passed the ball.

Imagine if Rondo passed to Ray for a good shot, but Ray finds KG down low for a wide open dunk. I would rather have a team of willing passers that don't really care about assist stats.

Hawkeye15
01-16-2011, 05:51 PM
I would rather have a poing guard that doesn't mind stats and won't mind if you pass up a good shot for a great shot for another team mate after being passed the ball.

Imagine if Rondo passed to Ray for a good shot, but Ray finds KG down low for a wide open dunk. I would rather have a team of willing passers that don't really care about assist stats.

of for sure. The whole premise of basing a rating system on a per game stat is flawed to begin with. I think that has been covered in this thread.

rabzouz 96
01-16-2011, 07:36 PM
8 is your magic number op, 8 assists a game is in pg standards comparable to 10 rpg for a big.