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View Full Version : Can we now ALL finally agree that the Cavs management DID NOT put a team around LBJ?!



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RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 01:57 AM
Now that the Cavs are 7-16 are even getting demolished by bottom feaders we can and should all be able to see just how great lebron was to take that sorry *** roster to back to back 60 wins seasons. It's quite amazing actually when you think about it. Some important notes


Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)



..Remember every time Lebron would sit the Cavs would struggle and lose to bottom feeders? That's really unheard of on 60 win teams. When you're a 60 win/title contender type team you should be able to beat most teams most even w/o you best player playing or if they are having a bad game but with the Cavs, they couldn't even beat bottom feeders when Lebron didn't play!. The lakers consistently won/win games where Kobe goes 10-15 games stretched of almost sub 40% house building bricking. They did this because the roster was far superior to the Cavs outside of Lebron.

:also, outside of Lebron, Delonte and verjao, noone on that team played defense which got exposed by Boston in the playoffs. The most guilty of this on last years team was Jamison and Mo Williams, two dudes that you obviously needed for scoring reasons but they also would give up more than they would score. Just think back to how KG and Rondo raped Jamison and Mo Williams. If you don't believe this isn't still happening, go read the Cavs blogs or messageboards and all they do is complain about those 2 players lack of defense:facepalm:

all in all, it's pretty clear now Lebron had to be video game James to even try winning a title with that trash roster. He never played with a true in their prime 2nd fiddle (one able to carry a team to 50 wins like Kobe got with Gasol ).

The gap between Lebron and the Cavs so called "2nd fiddle" Mo Williams was way to wide to expect Lebron to win a title with that team and now that Lebron is gone, we can truly see just how no so great those other Cavs were especially the like of Mo Williams, Jamison and Hickson.

Baller1
12-12-2010, 01:59 AM
Yeah, it's pretty ****ing incredible just how important he was to that team.

HouRealCoach
12-12-2010, 02:02 AM
They shouldve gave him more help

Chronz
12-12-2010, 02:03 AM
Dont forget to mention that they added Sessions, an improved JJ Hickson, have Antawn for the full year.

Sad that its taking so long for people to realize just how bad theyve been this year, even when their record was decent their SRS was pitiful.

Like Ive said before, those Cavs were the least talented team to win 65 games. That said, I didnt expect them to suck this badly, I had thought they would maintain some of their defensive identity, seem Bron was far more important than I realized on that end.

Gators123
12-12-2010, 02:06 AM
That's what happens when you lose the best player in the NBA....

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 02:08 AM
Dont forget to mention that they added Sessions, an improved JJ Hickson, have Antawn for the full year.

Sad that its taking so long for people to realize just how bad theyve been this year, even when their record was decent their SRS was pitiful.

Like Ive said before, those Cavs were the least talented team to win 65 games. That said, I didnt expect them to suck this badly, I had thought they would maintain some of their defensive identity, seem Bron was far more important than I realized on that end.

I expected the same. But its amazing how huge LJ was. I honestly won't listen to a single excuse about how LeBron can't get it done again if this continues.

Baller1
12-12-2010, 02:08 AM
Dont forget to mention that they added Sessions, an improved JJ Hickson, have Antawn for the full year.

Sad that its taking so long for people to realize just how bad theyve been this year, even when their record was decent their SRS was pitiful.

Like Ive said before, those Cavs were the least talented team to win 65 games. That said, I didnt expect them to suck this badly, I had thought they would maintain some of their defensive identity, seem Bron was far more important than I realized on that end.

Same here. It's pretty ridiculous.

Cano4prez
12-12-2010, 02:08 AM
That's what happens who you lose the best player in the NBA....

This

Hoopsadvocate
12-12-2010, 02:12 AM
This is just goes to show that the LeQuit critics are idiots. It's proof his team was crap and he was carrying them and he was 100% right for leaving. Next up the rest of the critics because the HEAT are rolling just as we said they would be once try started to gel. Now all of a sudden the "not having fun" statements make sense. They seemed tense and on edge and very methodical in their play now there gelling and everything looks to come more natural and there having fun out there playing along side each other and it shows.

Crackadalic
12-12-2010, 02:16 AM
I find it funny how people were saying how talented that roster was without lebron. remember he took a d-league team to the finals at one point

justinnum1
12-12-2010, 02:18 AM
when is the last time an mvp left his team the following year? Seems unprecedented.

MaHaRaJaH
12-12-2010, 02:21 AM
I find it funny how people were saying how talented that roster was without lebron. remember he took a d-league team to the finals at one point
Everybody believes in something crazy

shep33
12-12-2010, 02:22 AM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.

Next, what people fail to understand is that they built this team around Lebron's ability. The Cleveland Cavs are the Anti-Heat in that they are just a bunch of role players. I really think that if you put a guy who can score, i.e. Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, etc. on the Cavs, they'd be a good team. Look at their team though... their leading scorer averages 15 ppg, and they don't have a leader.

The Cavs players are getting knocked unfairly here IMO, they have great 3 point shooters, good rebounders, etc., but again, nobody who can score. If you put Kobe, Durant, Melo on that team, not only would they get 27+ppg, but they'd also command a double and get other guys easy looks. There is no team built like the Cavs in the league right now... what I mean by that is that the Cavs' best player is the worst in the league in comparison to every other team's best player. Name another team who's best player is worse then the Cavs best player? You probably can't....

ChI_ShIzzLe
12-12-2010, 02:25 AM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.

Next, what people fail to understand is that they built this team around Lebron's ability. The Cleveland Cavs are the Anti-Heat in that they are just a bunch of role players. I really think that if you put a guy who can score, i.e. Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, etc. on the Cavs, they'd be a good team. Look at their team though... their leading scorer averages 15 ppg, and they don't have a leader.

The Cavs players are getting knocked unfairly here IMO, they have great 3 point shooters, good rebounders, etc., but again, nobody who can score. If you put Kobe, Durant, Melo on that team, not only would they get 27+ppg, but they'd also command a double and get other guys easy looks. There is no team built like the Cavs in the league right now... what I mean by that is that the Cavs' best player is the worst in the league in comparison to every other team's best player. Name another team who's best player is worse then the Cavs best player? You probably can't....
The Pistons. Hell I don't even know who would be considered their best player.

shep33
12-12-2010, 02:28 AM
This is just goes to show that the LeQuit critics are idiots. It's proof his team was crap and he was carrying them and he was 100% right for leaving. Next up the rest of the critics because the HEAT are rolling just as we said they would be once try started to gel. Now all of a sudden the "not having fun" statements make sense. They seemed tense and on edge and very methodical in their play now there gelling and everything looks to come more natural and there having fun out there playing along side each other and it shows.

So by your statement, playing with Wade and Bosh should automatically bring them a championship every year. That means by your arguments, if Lebron doesn't win a championship every year for the next 3-4 atleast with Miami, then he is a failure. Because if he's capable of bringing a scrub team to the Finals, then playing with 2 of the best players in the league, an attribute which most players don't ever get to do in history, then Miami should win every year. Basically like I said, what if he doesn't win this year or next year? What does that make Lebron James?

kblo247
12-12-2010, 02:31 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;15891950]I expected the same. But its amazing how huge LJ was. I honestly won't listen to a single excuse about how LeBron can't get it done again if this continues.

Yes or No

Did Lebron not play with 3 guys who were all stars in (08-09)?
Were Parker, Moon, and West not full time starters on other teams outside of Cleveland?
Had Z not been a starting caliber center for his whole career leading into last year?
Was Andy not in the running for 6th man of the year?



Making excuses for a guy not getting it done with talent, homecourt advantage through out, and a history of multiple players actually playing statistically worse (Hughes, Jamison, Shaq, Davis, Miles, Marshall, Jones off the top of my head) with him is a ****ing cop out. LeBron had the guys he asked for and signed off on (which was the main problem imo as Cleveland got him who he wanted over who he needed for years), he had the coach and system he thrived with, but he couldn't get **** done plain and simple.

Plus you can't really cite this squad the Cavs are putting out now in comparison to last year when:

They have no real starting center.
Brown isn't the coach
They have no capable PG to run Scott's system like Paul and Kidd did, and in all honesty all of Scott's teams are piss poor to start off with because he takes time to get players to accept his philosophies and then eventually wears out his welcome.
They signed no wing player or guard that can create the least little bit. There may have been no guy on the market, but in all honesty Iverson or McGrady were worth the gamble since they can still offer more than Sessions and Gharam.

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 02:32 AM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.

Read what I posted:

Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)





Next, what people fail to understand is that they built this team around Lebron's ability. The Cleveland Cavs are the Anti-Heat in that they are just a bunch of role players. I really think that if you put a guy who can score, i.e. Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, etc. on the Cavs, they'd be a good team. Look at their team though... their leading scorer averages 15 ppg, and they don't have a leader.

Noone outiside of lebron IMo could have won 66 and 62 games back to back with that team. Only maybe Wade could come close.



The Cavs players are getting knocked unfairly here IMO, they have great 3 point shooters, good rebounders, etc., but again, nobody who can score. If you put Kobe, Durant, Melo on that team, not only would they get 27+ppg, but they'd also command a double and get other guys easy looks. There is no team built like the Cavs in the league right now... what I mean by that is that the Cavs' best player is the worst in the league in comparison to every other team's best player. Name another team who's best player is worse then the Cavs best player? You probably can't....

even more proff of how great lebron was/is and even more proof why they couldn't get past Boston or Orlando. The lakers have about about 4-5 players outside of Kobe that are better than Mo Williams and the Celtics have about 2-3 outisde of Paul Pierce.

NYKnicks4511
12-12-2010, 02:34 AM
How important was LeBron, hmm. He was very important ... no ******* ****?

When you lose the most athletically gifted basketball player in the world, who also happens to be the league MVP, perennial all-star, and sure-fire Hall of Famer, your team is going to get freaking worse.

Also, when your team has to turn to Mo Williams as your best player, your team just became the 2007 Milwaukee Bucks.

Maybe it's just that I'm having a bad day, but did anyone think the ****ing Cavs were going to get better with LeBron gone? I mean damn, I can't believe the Cavs have won 7 games already. I seriously thought that they might have a chance of having a New Jersey'09 type season (props to Byron Scott).

Anyways, the answer is 'really important'

/thread

>> Cavs redirect: nbadraft.net

ChI_ShIzzLe
12-12-2010, 02:35 AM
So by your statement, playing with Wade and Bosh should automatically bring them a championship every year. That means by your arguments, if Lebron doesn't win a championship every year for the next 3-4 atleast with Miami, then he is a failure. Because if he's capable of bringing a scrub team to the Finals, then playing with 2 of the best players in the league, an attribute which most players don't ever get to do in history, then Miami should win every year. Basically like I said, what if he doesn't win this year or next year? What does that make Lebron James?

Don't you know? They're still a dynasty and Lebron is still the best ever even if they don't win championships.

shep33
12-12-2010, 02:35 AM
The Pistons. Hell I don't even know who would be considered their best player.

Honestly, Prince and Stuckey all are better players than the best player on the Cavs, statistically this year. Ben Gordon or Charlie V would likely be their leading scorer if either were on that team.

Stuckey is averaging 16.7 points and 5.2 assists to Moe Williams' 14.6 ppg and 5.9 assists, and Stuckey is shooting a better percentage. Prince IMO is one of the best 2 way players in the league, and I don't know anyone outside of maybe Hickson that they trade him for on that team... and that would only be because Hickson is a young and still needs more time to develop... that's just my opinion though.

kj244
12-12-2010, 02:35 AM
Lebron needed a Kobe to his Shaq. I think ownership did its best to bring in some help from him. The problem is Cleveland isn't exactly a glamorous sell to a rich superstar, unless you were born and raised there.

Chronz
12-12-2010, 02:39 AM
when is the last time an mvp left his team the following year? Seems unprecedented.
Guys have left teams and won the MVP the following year ala Nash

Kareem prolly won an MVP before leaving the Bucks, not sure though.



How important was LeBron, hmm. He was very important ... no ******* ****?

When you lose the most athletically gifted basketball player in the world, who also happens to be the league MVP, perennial all-star, and sure-fire Hall of Famer, your team is going to get freaking worse.

Also, when your team has to turn to Mo Williams as your best player, your team just became the 2007 Milwaukee Bucks.

Maybe it's just that I'm having a bad day, but did anyone think the ****ing Cavs were going to get better with LeBron gone? I mean damn, I can't believe the Cavs have won 7 games already. I seriously thought that they might have a chance of having a New Jersey'09 type season (props to Byron Scott).

Anyways, the answer is 'really important'

/thread

>> Cavs redirect: nbadraft.net

Thats not what people were saying about the Cavs before and during the early going

beasted86
12-12-2010, 02:45 AM
I think the general idea by logical fans is they know his team wasn't good enough to win, but he should have stayed anyway, and continued trying to recruit for the Cavs.

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 02:47 AM
How important was LeBron, hmm. He was very important ... no ******* ****?

When you lose the most athletically gifted basketball player in the world, who also happens to be the league MVP, perennial all-star, and sure-fire Hall of Famer, your team is going to get freaking worse.

Also, when your team has to turn to Mo Williams as your best player, your team just became the 2007 Milwaukee Bucks.

Maybe it's just that I'm having a bad day, but did anyone think the ****ing Cavs were going to get better with LeBron gone? I mean damn, I can't believe the Cavs have won 7 games already. I seriously thought that they might have a chance of having a New Jersey'09 type season (props to Byron Scott).

Anyways, the answer is 'really important'

/thread

>> Cavs redirect: nbadraft.net

I remember plenty of people saying that the cavs were going to show just how great they were evn w/o bron. I'll find the articles in a few but people were saying they were a 40-45 win team even w/o bron:o

kblo247
12-12-2010, 02:51 AM
I remember plenty of people saying that the cavs were going to show just how great they were evn w/o bron. I'll find the articles in a few but people were saying they were a 40-45 win team even w/o bron:o

I still think they would have been better than they are with Mike Brown over Scott. He is a coach who takes time to warm up too, runs a very PG centric system, and then wears out his welcome quickly.

I also assumed that most would think that they would have at least tried to get a center and semi ball dominant player like McGrady or Iverson as a stopgap

shep33
12-12-2010, 02:52 AM
Read what I posted:

Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)






Noone outiside of lebron IMo could have won 66 and 62 games back to back with that team. Only maybe Wade could come close.




even more proff of how great lebron was/is and even more proof why they couldn't get past Boston or Orlando. The lakers have about about 4-5 players outside of Kobe that are better than Mo Williams and the Celtics have about 2-3 outisde of Paul Pierce.

Okay the +/- is the most overrated stat in the NBA by far. Chris Bosh has a higher +/- than Wade or Lebron, that doesn't make him better. Fisher has a higher +/- then Kobe.

Lebron did a great job winning that team 60+ games, but if you put Kobe in his prime on that team you don't think he could've done it? If Kobe can win 45 games in the western conference with these players:

Kwame Brown
Kobe Bryant
Brian Cook
Bynum-never played because he was rook
Devean George
Devin Green
Jim Jackson
Aaron McKie
Stanislav Medvedenko
Chris Mihm
Lamar Odom
Smush Parker
Laron Profit
Ronny Turiaf
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton

Starters that year were:
Smush Parker
Kobe
Walton
Odom
Kwame

I'm willing to bet anything he could get atleast near 60 wins in the eastern conference which was even worse back then, with the players the Cavs had over the past 2 years. Think about it that's a difference of only 13 wins, and this laker team in 2005 had most of its players banished from the league within 1-2 years. I dunno that's just my opinion.

Also, what does it make Lebron if Miami doesn't win a championship for the next 4-5 years? He leads scrubs to the playoffs, but then if he can't win with superstars, it just makes him look worse doesn't it?

beasted86
12-12-2010, 02:52 AM
:bla:

The only question that matters is this:

Do you as a Laker fan think the team LeBron had last season was good enough to beat the Lakers in a 7 game series?

Please be honest with yourself.

I'm not saying the Cavs were trash or anything like that. And they were for sure a legit contender as constructed, but we all know they weren't good enough to really win it all. I similarly think the Magic are/were a legit contender, and aren't good enough to win it all either... and even they had a better talent team.

pd1dish
12-12-2010, 02:55 AM
obviously he was important to the cavs. he is a 2 time mvp. what do you expect to happen when arguably the best player in the nba leaves a team full of scrubs

Avenged
12-12-2010, 02:58 AM
I think it's pretty obvious how important Lebron was to the Cavs, lets not pretend like he wasn't.. Every top player is important to their team, Kobe to the Lakers, Wade to the Heat [pre Lebron/Bosh], Dwight to the Magic etc.. Without those guys, their teams wouldn't be as good as they are/were..

Same with the Cavs. Leading his team to a championship is another story, but he managed to lead that team to the best record in the league [twice in a row??], that in itself should mean something. Now without him, this team isn't even looking to be making the playoffs.

heyman321
12-12-2010, 02:58 AM
Why is this even a thread? He was super ****ing important.

icej
12-12-2010, 03:01 AM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.

Next, what people fail to understand is that they built this team around Lebron's ability. The Cleveland Cavs are the Anti-Heat in that they are just a bunch of role players. I really think that if you put a guy who can score, i.e. Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, etc. on the Cavs, they'd be a good team. Look at their team though... their leading scorer averages 15 ppg, and they don't have a leader.

The Cavs players are getting knocked unfairly here IMO, they have great 3 point shooters, good rebounders, etc., but again, nobody who can score. If you put Kobe, Durant, Melo on that team, not only would they get 27+ppg, but they'd also command a double and get other guys easy looks. There is no team built like the Cavs in the league right now... what I mean by that is that the Cavs' best player is the worst in the league in comparison to every other team's best player. Name another team who's best player is worse then the Cavs best player? You probably can't....

Boy you sure don't know what you are saying. Are you really serious with this post??

1. Shaq top 5 center today? Did you even bother to read the thread maker's analysis on Shaq's ineffectiveness as a Cavs?

2. You argue that kobe, durant, melo would do great in CAVS when the fact is this Cavs last few season with LBJ has better recorded wins than their teams the last few seasons in a row. (and please dont say the kobe has ring argument, kobe is lucky to be a LAKER, who can get a gasol an artest an odom and a bynum and whoever they wanted to win)

3. Read the 2nd, 3rd paragraph of your argument again, the only thing it proved is that the CAVS roster truly sucks. You are among those whom you say are judging cavs unfairly.

4, Tell us how can any team possibly have "GREAT" 3point shooters that cant score??

kblo247
12-12-2010, 03:04 AM
The only question that matters is this:

Do you as a Laker fan think the team LeBron had last season was good enough to beat the Lakers in a 7 game series?

Please be honest with yourself.

I'm not saying the Cavs were trash or anything like that. And they were for sure a legit contender as constructed, but we all know they weren't good enough to really win it all. I similarly think the Magic are/were a legit contender, and aren't good enough to win it all either... and even they had a better talent team.

They had a chance to beat them. I'm not saying they would have won, but the chance was there solely because of HCA and the disparity in bench play with Odom hobbled last playoffs unlike in the run versus Orlando with a sprained shoulder and bone bruise in his knee which hindered his production like we are accustomed to in the postseason..

The fact is Lamar, Pau, Ron, Shannon, Jordan, and Andrew all had worse averages across the board on the road in last year's playoffs in 3 out of the 4 rounds (Utah was the exception) so I won't say the Cavs had no chance as no one's game outside of Kobe and Fish's traveled well for god knows what reason.

I'd call it a 60/40 split in favor of LA because of home court advantage and the fact Bynum's bum knee imo wouldn't hold up nearly as long against Shaq as it did against Perk who couldn't attack him.

As for the blah, blah smiley - learn to formulate an argument and acknowledge facts as nothing I said about that Cavs team wasn't true

Hoopsadvocate
12-12-2010, 03:08 AM
So by your statement, playing with Wade and Bosh should automatically bring them a championship every year. That means by your arguments, if Lebron doesn't win a championship every year for the next 3-4 atleast with Miami, then he is a failure. Because if he's capable of bringing a scrub team to the Finals, then playing with 2 of the best players in the league, an attribute which most players don't ever get to do in history, then Miami should win every year. Basically like I said, what if he doesn't win this year or next year? What does that make Lebron James?

By my logic? U mean by the fact the cabs team blows without him and the fact he once took a buck of scrubs to the finals. But regardless of how u trying to play with the words yes he should "compete" for a title every year. But of course the NBA and level of talent on teams have changed since he last took his team to the finals. LA is a power house itself and same with Boston so no shame in that if the level of team competition were like in 2002? When he got to the finals then ya I'd be 100% right it would be a failure but that's not the case it's the a different time now teams have adjusted to the HEATs FA aquisitons (Boston stocking up on bigs and LA adding more perimeter defenders. not winning a title at all in 7 years would be dissapointing but losing 1-2 of those wouldn't be a failure at all as long as we compete well for it an baring injuries of course

shep33
12-12-2010, 03:11 AM
Boy you sure don't know what you are saying. Are you really serious with this post??

1. Shaq top 5 center today? Did you even bother to read the thread maker's analysis on Shaq's ineffectiveness as a Cavs? Also why did Shaq fit better in Boston and Phoenix than in Cleveland? We can argue that maybe Lebron or the coaches didn't know how to utilize him, when in fact Shaq was very effect both Phoenix and Boston

2. You argue that kobe, durant, melo would do great in CAVS when the fact is this Cavs last few season with LBJ has better recorded wins than their teams the last few seasons in a row. (and please dont say the kobe has ring argument, kobe is lucky to be a LAKER, who can get a gasol an artest an odom and a bynum and whoever they wanted to win)

3. Read the 2nd, 3rd paragraph of your argument again, the only thing it proved is that the CAVS roster truly sucks. You are among those whom you say are judging cavs unfairly.

4, Tell us how can any team possibly have "GREAT" 3point shooters that cant score??

Okay first of all, I'm not saying Lebron wasn't important, he was obviously the 2 time MVP.

1. Name 5 Centers that are playing right now who are better than Shaq. Not guys that are injured, but so far this year, which 5 centers are playing better than him?

2. I've mentioned this earlier... if Kobe won 45 with a Laker team in 2005, who's supporting cast was way way worse than the Cavs' last year, i think he could get close, considering a prime Kobe in the eastern conference.

3. My argument is not that the Cavs roster sucks, its that the Cavs roster was built around the talent of Lebron James... these guys aren't guys made to score 20 ppg, but guys to compliment LBJ's game.

4. What do you mean by 3 point shooter who can't score? Not every 3 point shooter averages 30 ppg... Look at guys that are designed to be shooters within an offense, Paxon, Kerr, Bullard, Ferry etc. Their role is to knock down open shots, not to score 20 a game

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:17 AM
He was very important ofcourse.
Especially due to the way they were built.
he was the big bad ballhogging go-to #1 scoring option. He left a huge void in the Points department.
Plus they lost big Z, shaq and west as well.

shep33
12-12-2010, 03:17 AM
By my logic? U mean by the fact the cabs team blows without him and the fact he once took a buck of scrubs to the finals. But regardless of how u trying to play with the words yes he should "compete" for a title every year. But of course the NBA and level of talent on teams have changed since he last took his team to the finals. LA is a power house itself and same with Boston so no shame in that if the level of team competition were like in 2002? When he got to the finals then ya I'd be 100% right it would be a failure but that's not the case it's the a different time now teams have adjusted to the HEATs FA aquisitons (Boston stocking up on bigs and LA adding more perimeter defenders. not winning a title at all in 7 years would be dissapointing but losing 1-2 of those wouldn't be a failure at all as long as we compete well for it an baring injuries of course


Listen, i think the Heat are gonna be contenders for years to come, but if people continue to say the Cavs team is horrendous without looking at the dynamics of how they built their team to surround Lebron with certain players to do certain things, all good role players mind you, then if he ends up not winning in Miami, we can't make that argument anymore... we'd either have to say one of two things:

1) Lebron fit better within his role on the Cavs and there isn't much difference between the success of the Heat or Cavs (with Lebron) if Miami don't win rings for the next few years.

2) Lebron isn't as good as people make it out to be.

Don't overreact to this, let me explain... this is not how I will think of Lebron, but you very well know that the media will think this way of him if they don't win multiple championships right away. It's unfair yes, but it is what I think most of us expect will happen if they don't win.

ink
12-12-2010, 03:19 AM
This is just goes to show that the LeQuit critics are idiots. It's proof his team was crap and he was carrying them and he was 100% right for leaving.

Hang on there. I don't think anyone denies that he was right to leave. The issue has ALWAYS been with the WAY he did it and the fact that he felt the need to surround himself with as many superstars as he could.

arkanian215
12-12-2010, 03:24 AM
Can We Give the Cavs A Little Props? (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=557387)

More Surprising, Clippers 1-10 OR Cavs one game behind the Heat? (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553475)

There's plenty of "I said..." such and such would happen. Guess they were wrong. We'll see at the end of the season. Another reason to account for SOS.

Kenny
12-12-2010, 03:25 AM
Wait people are actually saying shaw is a big loss??? the guy wasnt even on the team that won 66 games the year before..

valade16
12-12-2010, 03:34 AM
Saying the cavs have talent is hilarious to me. Name 2 players on their team youd want in your starting lineup... Cant do it.

And to anyone who thinks the talent-level of leBron and Kobes supporting cast is equal is in serious denial. I cant believe this is a thread.

Its obvious lebron took perhaps the worst team (without him) ever to make the playoffs all the way to the finals.

To me that is more impressive than actually winning the title with a prime shaq on the team.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:45 AM
Saying the cavs have talent is hilarious to me. Name 2 players on their team youd want in your starting lineup... Cant do it.

And to anyone who thinks the talent-level of leBron and Kobes supporting cast is equal is in serious denial. I cant believe this is a thread.

Its obvious lebron took perhaps the worst team (without him) ever to make the playoffs all the way to the finals.

To me that is more impressive than actually winning the title with a prime shaq on the team.
Obviously never seen the team Kobe got to the playoffs a few years ago with smush parker, luke walton and kwame brown starting.

Whats wrong with Hughes, Big Z, pavlovic(over 40% from 3), varejao, gibson(0ver 40% from 3)? with the first few in their prime.
They had the 4th best defensive rtg in the game. surely you cant pin that all on lebron.

They also added tons more guys rhat they had on the team last year.
Mo Williams, Shaq, Jamison..

_KB24_
12-12-2010, 03:53 AM
Of course he was ****ing important to the team, why would anyone even question that. The team was completely built around him to complement him the the best: 3-point shooters to spread the floor and brawlers/hustlers who can rebound and body the opposing team.

And I love how the OP dismissed the other losses the Cavs suffered right away. Like it or not, Bron still had 3 All-Star players on that team from the previous year. Jamison and Mo also were capable scorers who both scored 40+ with their previous teams. Wasn't the whole reason that they got Shaq was so he could provide a post presence in the playoffs? EVERYONE was saying that the value Shaq brought would not need to be seen on the stat line.

The Cavs lost close to HALF their rotation from last year, lost their coach who was known for being a great defensive coach, and are now in a much tougher conference than last year.

Simply, if you took Bron out last year, and had that team play for a full season in the same circumstances as last year, I'd still have them as a playoff team:

PG: Mo Williams/Gibson
SG: Parker/West
SF: Moon/Williams
PF: Varejo/Hickson
C: Shaq/Big Z

Sadds The Gr8
12-12-2010, 03:59 AM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.


so false.

Noah, Howard, horford, Bogut, Bynum, Kaman, Jefferson...that's just off the top of my head. there's more.

Hoopsadvocate
12-12-2010, 04:05 AM
Hang on there. I don't think anyone denies that he was right to leave. The issue has ALWAYS been with the WAY he did it and the fact that he felt the need to surround himself with as many superstars as he could.

No because plenty of people denied his right to leave saying he quit on his team and he didn't have what it takes to win Aka why I said the LeQuit critics specifically. Sure some didnt but my post wasn't addressing those people well at least not in the first half of my post. He felt if he was gonna leave so I ur gonna leave anyways might as well be to the best team why settle for less? It makes no sense If ur gonna sell ur house and move somewhere new why buy a another fixer upper (ny) or go to a town house home ( Chicago) when u have the chance to live in a mansion (Miami).

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 04:07 AM
so false.

Noah, Howard, horford, Bogut, Bynum, Kaman, Jefferson...that's just off the top of my head. there's more.

I wouldn't be so fast to put all these guys ahead of him.
Hes certainly more efficient than some of them. Shooting around 60% every year and just a monster of a man inside. He does have stamina and injury issues tho.

ink
12-12-2010, 04:10 AM
No because plenty of people denied his right to leave saying he quit on his team and he didn't have what it takes to win Aka why I said the LeQuit critics specifically. Sure some didnt but my post wasn't addressing those people well at least not in the first half of my post. He felt if he was gonna leave so I ur gonna leave anyways might as well be to the best team why settle for less? It makes no sense If ur gonna sell ur house and move somewhere new why buy a another fixer upper (ny) or go to a town house home ( Chicago) when u have the chance to live in a mansion (Miami).

I mentioned that people decried his decision to surround himself with superstars. That was the "MJ never had to do that" angle that so many pointed out. If it WAS a goal of his to be one of the greatest ever, you have to admit he blew it with that move. But if his wish was to win a title, he will probably succeed. Depends what his goal was.

shep33
12-12-2010, 04:42 AM
I wouldn't be so fast to put all these guys ahead of him.
Hes certainly more efficient than some of them. Shooting around 60% every year and just a monster of a man inside. He does have stamina and injury issues tho.

I agree, we're not just looking at overall numbers here, Shaq's efficiency is pretty good considering how many minutes he plays. He is still the only unguardable center in the league IMO... he's so big that if he gets it within 5 feet, its almost an automatic bucket. How many centers today still command a double team... when Shaq is rolling you have to double, especially if he gets the position he wants. He fouls hard, and controls the paint and glass... if he got more looks in Boston he'd probably even average closer to 16-17 ppg.

In 22 minutes ( i know he isn't healthy right now) the guy is averaging 11.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg, a block, and is shooting 69% from the field. Haha I repeat 69% from the field... that's ridiculous

ElMarroAfamado
12-12-2010, 04:44 AM
well he was important in that he always helped em get the best record in the league but pretty worthless since he never led them to a title
The Cavs will not win a title sooner than Miami ....or anytime soon...but neither will Miami maybe like in 6 years but Dan Gilbert should feel some comfort in that

CAVEMAN5
12-12-2010, 04:51 AM
haha i just want the cavs to have the worst record in the nba so everyone sees how good lebron is. then the nba could give him another mvp just by showing that the cavs lost 40 or so more games this year then last. lmao

bklynny67
12-12-2010, 04:55 AM
this thread is :horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse::horse:

how many do we need that basically say the same thing?

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 04:56 AM
And I love how the OP dismissed the other losses the Cavs suffered right away. Like it or not, Bron still had 3 All-Star players on that team from the previous year. Jamison and Mo also were capable scorers who both scored 40+ with their previous teams. Wasn't the whole reason that they got Shaq was so he could provide a post presence in the playoffs? EVERYONE was saying that the value Shaq brought would not need to be seen on the stat line.

Shaq actually made the Cavs worse against most teams than they were the previous year w/o him. They really only got Shaq for the Dwight and Bynum/Gasol. Against teams w/o traditional post players, Shaq struggled which is why he had mostly negative +/- stats. I already spoke on it...

Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)

another stat

The Cavs were 33-7 the past 2 years without Delonte in the lineup

They were 11-1 without Big Z AND Shaq LAST YEAR.


The Cavs lost close to HALF their rotation from last year, lost their coach who was known for being a great defensive coach, and are now in a much tougher conference than last year.

Go to any Cavs messagboard/blog and you'll find that most were happy that Mike brown was fired. They all said or though Byron Scott would be a better coach and put the Cavs in a better position for title.

Simply, if you took Bron out last year, and had that team play for a full season in the same circumstances as last year, I'd still have them as a playoff team:


PG: Mo Williams/Gibson
SG: Parker/West
SF: Moon/Williams
PF: Varejo/Hickson
C: Shaq/Big Z[/quote]

Cavs are getting blown out by the likes of the Timberwolves and Pistons. They suck

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 05:01 AM
well he was important in that he always helped em get the best record in the league but pretty worthless since he never led them to a title
The Cavs will not win a title sooner than Miami ....or anytime soon...but neither will Miami maybe like in 6 years but Dan Gilbert should feel some comfort in that

Kobe couldn't sniff 50 wins and was a first round exit waiting to happen until they go Gasol a guy who lead a team to 50 wins as the leader even before Kobe did it. Lakers are a 50 win team easily right now evn if Kobe sits out the entire season...same can't be said for those cavs minus Lebron. Noone should have realistically expected Lebron to win a title with that roster. lebron never even played with a true hall of fame/2nd tier/franchise 50 win level type player in their prime the entire time he was the cavs.

dodie53
12-12-2010, 05:02 AM
duh.

Bruno
12-12-2010, 05:06 AM
The Cavs have really dropped off since Jamess homecoming; it's as if The Heat stole all of Cleveland's momentum. I think it crushed the team, the coaches, and the city on an emotional level. I think that day the fact that he had left had physically manifested for the first time; it left them crippled in more ways than one.

James impact is obvious, but losing Z and Shaq didn't help either; you can't make up for that size and veteran leadership.

Also, note J.J. Hickson. At the start of the season The Cavs were surprising a lot of people, and J.J. Hickson was playing well, and putting up good stats. But over the past month or so he has been terrible, and so have the Cavs.

jmtapia
12-12-2010, 05:57 AM
not meaning to be a thread police but really!!!!!

LBJ was Cleveland!!!!!

Minimal
12-12-2010, 06:01 AM
Link (http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings/_/page/2)
Guess who is last.
They will have the worst record this year.

Hoopsadvocate
12-12-2010, 11:21 AM
I mentioned that people decried his decision to surround himself with superstars. That was the "MJ never had to do that" angle that so many pointed out. If it WAS a goal of his to be one of the greatest ever, you have to admit he blew it with that move. But if his wish was to win a title, he will probably succeed. Depends what his goal was.

That's great and ur opinion, but still has nothing to do with my post as I was mentioning the LeQuit people who said it was his fault the cabs never made I and he therefor quit on them when in fact this thread and the cabs record show it's quite the opposite and that the cabs team quit on him and they werent enough.

JordansBulls
12-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Now that the Cavs are 7-16 are even getting demolished by bottom feaders we can and should all be able to see just how great lebron was to take that sorry *** roster to back to back 60 wins seasons. It's quite amazing actually when you think about it. Some important notes


Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)



..Remember every time Lebron would sit the Cavs would struggle and lose to bottom feeders? That's really unheard of on 60 win teams. When you're a 60 win/title contender type team you should be able to beat most teams most even w/o you best player playing or if they are having a bad game but with the Cavs, they couldn't even beat bottom feeders when Lebron didn't play!. The lakers consistently won/win games where Kobe goes 10-15 games stretched of almost sub 40% house building bricking. They did this because the roster was far superior to the Cavs outside of Lebron.

:also, outside of Lebron, Delonte and verjao, noone on that team played defense which got exposed by Boston in the playoffs. The most guilty of this on last years team was Jamison and Mo Williams, two dudes that you obviously needed for scoring reasons but they also would give up more than they would score. Just think back to how KG and Rondo raped Jamison and Mo Williams. If you don't believe this isn't still happening, go read the Cavs blogs or messageboards and all they do is complain about those 2 players lack of defense:facepalm:

all in all, it's pretty clear now Lebron had to be video game James to even try winning a title with that trash roster. He never played with a true in their prime 2nd fiddle (one able to carry a team to 50 wins like Kobe got with Gasol ).

The gap between Lebron and the Cavs so called "2nd fiddle" Mo Williams was way to wide to expect Lebron to win a title with that team and now that Lebron is gone, we can truly see just how no so great those other Cavs were especially the like of Mo Williams, Jamison and Hickson.

They lost Shaq as well and Mike Brown.

tkanan
12-12-2010, 11:31 AM
well they lost their nucleus...James was essentiall there team surrounded by a few players to compliment him..Now those compliment players have to lead the team which is very difficult...next year they will be a little better with a year of getting used to a lebron-less team, this is what happens when you lose the best player in the NBA, complete turmoil, as would be expected

dunedinjays
12-12-2010, 11:32 AM
No worries, self proclaimed all star Mo Williams will take them to the promise land

ManRam
12-12-2010, 11:35 AM
I have a few thoughts...

I seriously don't think any player has ever meant more to a top 3-4 team in the league in the history of the NBA. I can't back that up, but I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. He was the entire team. It's nothing short of remarkable.

I think it is obvious why I don't think rings are the be-all end-all in determining greatness. Frankly, I think what he did the last 2-3 years was just as impressive.

There was a lot of debate about how good his supporting cast was the last few years. I know a lot of people (JB ;) ) who argued that it was one of the bests in the league. LeBron just needed a sidekick. Mo wasn't it (again, JB ;) ). I know I'm in the minority, but as long as he doesn't have to go through Orlando, I'm wishing for success for him (not Wade or Bosh, or the Heat...I hate them all).

And when those "Cleveland deserves props", or "are we wrong about Cleveland" threads popped up, I got a lot of **** for predicting they'd be 5-6 game under .500 in a few weeks from that time. It's been almost a month since then, and they are 9 games under .500.

This team will finish with the worst record in the East. A few teams out West might finish with a worse record, but that's not because they are less talented.

And I love how Laker fans are now trying to hype up those teams in the past...just to slander LeBron. Why weren't you a year ago from now?

IrespectNumber3
12-12-2010, 11:36 AM
They lost Shaq as well and Mike Brown.

He won 66 games before Shaq got there

Byron Scott > Mike Brown

Playing there for 7 years makes a difference

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;15891950]I expected the same. But its amazing how huge LJ was. I honestly won't listen to a single excuse about how LeBron can't get it done again if this continues.

Yes or No

Did Lebron not play with 3 guys who were all stars in (08-09)?
Were Parker, Moon, and West not full time starters on other teams outside of Cleveland?
Had Z not been a starting caliber center for his whole career leading into last year?
Was Andy not in the running for 6th man of the year?



Making excuses for a guy not getting it done with talent, homecourt advantage through out, and a history of multiple players actually playing statistically worse (Hughes, Jamison, Shaq, Davis, Miles, Marshall, Jones off the top of my head) with him is a ****ing cop out. LeBron had the guys he asked for and signed off on (which was the main problem imo as Cleveland got him who he wanted over who he needed for years), he had the coach and system he thrived with, but he couldn't get **** done plain and simple.

Plus you can't really cite this squad the Cavs are putting out now in comparison to last year when:

They have no real starting center.
Brown isn't the coach
They have no capable PG to run Scott's system like Paul and Kidd did, and in all honesty all of Scott's teams are piss poor to start off with because he takes time to get players to accept his philosophies and then eventually wears out his welcome.
They signed no wing player or guard that can create the least little bit. There may have been no guy on the market, but in all honesty Iverson or McGrady were worth the gamble since they can still offer more than Sessions and Gharam.



Shaq and Big Z were not good last year. Shaq was actually a liability while on the floor in the playoffs.

You guys can come up with whatever you like for an excuse. Fact is, they have the same TALENT LEVEL as the last few years, minus one key player in LeBron James.

As I said, I really don't care about the excuses anymore. We are all seeing how important LBJ was to that team. Come up with whatever you like to try and justify your opinions.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 11:45 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ilgauzy01&y1=2010&p2=onealsh01&y2=2010

I think many of you are really overrating having Shaq and Big Z. And Brown??????????????????????? Really???????????? His inability to make the simplest adjustments in the playoffs helped cause their demise.
"Gee, our one advantage up front is athletic ability with Anderson, Hickson, Moon, etc. But instead, I am going to play Shaq and Big Z, whom an aging KG, and slow footed Perkins, will have no issue guarding"

Keep em' coming guys. Fact is, Lebron was the Cavs. I have been saying this for 4 years, and ever since I have been here. And its now showing. I don't see how replacing role players with other role players gives anyone the opinion that this team, in principal, is any different talent wise, than the last 4-5 years, minus one SF

Ironman5219
12-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Now that the Cavs are 7-16 are even getting demolished by bottom feaders we can and should all be able to see just how great lebron was to take that sorry *** roster to back to back 60 wins seasons. It's quite amazing actually when you think about it. Some important notes


Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)



..Remember every time Lebron would sit the Cavs would struggle and lose to bottom feeders? That's really unheard of on 60 win teams. When you're a 60 win/title contender type team you should be able to beat most teams most even w/o you best player playing or if they are having a bad game but with the Cavs, they couldn't even beat bottom feeders when Lebron didn't play!. The lakers consistently won/win games where Kobe goes 10-15 games stretched of almost sub 40% house building bricking. They did this because the roster was far superior to the Cavs outside of Lebron.

:also, outside of Lebron, Delonte and verjao, noone on that team played defense which got exposed by Boston in the playoffs. The most guilty of this on last years team was Jamison and Mo Williams, two dudes that you obviously needed for scoring reasons but they also would give up more than they would score. Just think back to how KG and Rondo raped Jamison and Mo Williams. If you don't believe this isn't still happening, go read the Cavs blogs or messageboards and all they do is complain about those 2 players lack of defense:facepalm:

all in all, it's pretty clear now Lebron had to be video game James to even try winning a title with that trash roster. He never played with a true in their prime 2nd fiddle (one able to carry a team to 50 wins like Kobe got with Gasol ).

The gap between Lebron and the Cavs so called "2nd fiddle" Mo Williams was way to wide to expect Lebron to win a title with that team and now that Lebron is gone, we can truly see just how no so great those other Cavs were especially the like of Mo Williams, Jamison and Hickson.

No offense but this thread is one of those "no duh" threads. The Cav's built the team around Lebron. Lebron was a ball hog one man show. Take out that center peace and of coarse the Cav's will struggle. My question to the Cav's: Once they knew Lebron was gone, why didn't they go after some of the other big free agents?

alencp3
12-12-2010, 12:01 PM
None of the Cavs players except maybe Mo, was a solid starter last year, and 5-6 players were d-league material / benchwarmers
Lebron had the worst cast of all the nba greats

RCarlson85
12-12-2010, 12:06 PM
So much for them being good and even possibly making the playoffs without Lebron, like some people were saying. I think this shows how crappy of a team he really had and should show that it was all him. I don't know why anyone ever doubted that.

tjlipford
12-12-2010, 12:14 PM
The team was built around Lebron so what do people expect? Even though we won 60+ games the last two years didnt mean that we were the best team. As a fan I always felt as though we had too many flaws to actually win a ring with this team. I always felt like we had *****es on our squad.

In the playoffs those weaknesses were exposed simple as that. I don't blame Lebron for rather going to war with Bosh on one side and Wade on the other over Mo Williams and Andy Varejao. There was never hope for us to make the playoffs without Lebron and that's the reality of it. We were a successful team just not a championship team an the front office would have gotten somebody in here, the problem was Lebron was never too sure so nobody wanted to sign long term deals in Cleveland which is understandable. Also Mike brown just disregarded any offensive schemes with the team which made it easier to beat them when it really counted.

It was a little bit of everything that led to the fallout of that team. We are a bad team and the world is seeing that Lebron was the Cavs an there is no denying that whether u are a fan or not. They seem to still be sad that he left and as grown men and professional athletes that is just terrible.

ChetSteadman
12-12-2010, 12:17 PM
That's what happens when you lose the best player in the NBA....

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Kobe left LA????

ManRam
12-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Of course he was ****ing important to the team, why would anyone even question that. The team was completely built around him to complement him the the best: 3-point shooters to spread the floor and brawlers/hustlers who can rebound and body the opposing team.

And I love how the OP dismissed the other losses the Cavs suffered right away. Like it or not, Bron still had 3 All-Star players on that team from the previous year. Jamison and Mo also were capable scorers who both scored 40+ with their previous teams. Wasn't the whole reason that they got Shaq was so he could provide a post presence in the playoffs? EVERYONE was saying that the value Shaq brought would not need to be seen on the stat line.

The Cavs lost close to HALF their rotation from last year, lost their coach who was known for being a great defensive coach, and are now in a much tougher conference than last year.

Simply, if you took Bron out last year, and had that team play for a full season in the same circumstances as last year, I'd still have them as a playoff team:

PG: Mo Williams/Gibson
SG: Parker/West
SF: Moon/Williams
PF: Varejo/Hickson
C: Shaq/Big Z

How'd I skip over this one? One quick question, why didn't you ever hype up the Cavs last year? Why are you trying to make them sound better NOW, and not then? The lengths people will go to throw dirt on LeBron :facepalm:

That front court would get abused by every single team in the league. You really are trying to suggest that losing Shaq and Z, who are a combined age of like 76 or something, is a huge loss? They stunk last year. There is one scorer in the back court. Shaq and Z aren't going to make any difference on a team like that. They can have success when they play minimal minutes and on a team with great players around them...AKA as role players. You can't be a role player on that Cavs team because there aren't any star players. They are better off with Hickson starting over Shaq/Z.

As Hawkeye said, Z was an absolute non-factor in the playoffs last year, and you could easily argue that Shaq was more of a liability than not...and 16 minutes a game isn't really going to make a huge difference anyways.

The Cavs team this year would be just as (in)effective this year as they would have been last year. Z, Shaq and Delonte were not integral parts to the team's success last year. There was one person who was. West is a good player, but was abysmal late in the season. Hell, Leon Powe's production is as good as Shaq's was last year.


Oh, and now LeBron was just a ballhog. Nice.

tjlipford
12-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Cleveland fans are not stupid (most of them). We knew once he left it was over. We have to build from the ground up and that is the reality of it. B. Scott has some work on his hands. They are playing pathetic, but the only thing that surprises me is they are not giving effort and that is not what u expect out of a professional team. Plain and simple the Cavs are a bad team and they are only hurting themselves because the whole NBA is watching this.

Also I think teams are beating our heads in because of all that dancing over the years. Looks like it's biting them right in the *** an teams are coming for there necks.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 12:25 PM
How'd I skip over this one? One quick question, why didn't you ever hype up the Cavs last year? Why are you trying to make them sound better NOW, and not then? The lengths people will go to throw dirt on LeBron :facepalm:

That front court would get abused by every single team in the league. You really are trying to suggest that losing Shaq and Z, who are a combined age of like 76 or something, is a huge loss? They stunk last year. There is one scorer in the back court. Shaq and Z aren't going to make any difference on a team like that. They can have success when they play minimal minutes and on a team with great players around them...AKA as role players. You can't be a role player on that Cavs team because there aren't any star players. They are better off with Hickson starting over Shaq/Z.

As Hawkeye said, Z was an absolute non-factor in the playoffs last year, and you could easily argue that Shaq was more of a liability than not...and 16 minutes a game isn't really going to make a huge difference anyways.

The Cavs team this year would be just as (in)effective this year as they would have been last year. Z, Shaq and Delonte were not integral parts to the team's success last year. There was one person who was. West is a good player, but was abysmal late in the season. Hell, Leon Powe's production is as good as Shaq's was last year.


Oh, and now LeBron was just a ballhog. Nice.

Comedy hour was last night. you just missed it.

Im sure it was lebron who made shaq a force inside.
He helped him gain weight 20 years ago He helped him stretch as a kid to grow as tall as he has.
And it was HE, LEBRONALD, that taught shaq everything he knows.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 12:33 PM
Comedy hour was last night. you just missed it.

Im sure it was lebron who made shaq a force inside.
He helped him gain weight 20 years ago He helped him stretch as a kid to grow as tall as he has.
And it was HE, LEBRONALD, that taught shaq everything he knows.

are you actually trying to compare Shaq of 2000 to Shaq of 2010? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Heater4life
12-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Its not a question of how important Lebron was to the Cavs but more so a question of how much of a "team" did cleveland really have? The problem with the Cavs IMO was they had no structure to adding and building upon a team around LBJ. Every year it seemed they were looking for that "missing piece", and every year they would miss out on anything special. Roster overhauls of adding Joe Smith, Wally S. , Ben Wallace, Delonte. Trading for Shaq, trading for Antawn Jameson. They were trying to put pieces into their puzzle that didnt fit. Now you look at the roster, that was built to work to help Lebron, and where are the complementary pieces? Besides Gibson and a streaky williams, where are the shooters? Who can take it to the basket? They filled a team of role players that really dont have specific roles beyond Varejao.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 12:36 PM
are you actually trying to compare Shaq of 2000 to Shaq of 2010? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No. where do you see that?

are you actually trying to compare yourself to lebron james of 2010?
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

see what i did there?

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 12:40 PM
No. where do you see that?

are you actually trying to compare yourself to lebron james of 2010?
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

see what i did there?

then what did your post mean? Are you attempting to say Shaq from last year had the impact of the Shaq many remember dominating? What the hell does your post mean? Comedy hour?

Where were you Laker fans last year? You guys all were the ones saying that roster could NEVER stack up and win it all with LeBron on it, and now you guys flip over like a scared dog and claim that roster was stacked.

Its unreal how contradicting many of you are.

DenButsu
12-12-2010, 12:47 PM
Cleveland fans are not stupid (most of them). We knew once he left it was over. We have to build from the ground up and that is the reality of it. B. Scott has some work on his hands. They are playing pathetic, but the only thing that surprises me is they are not giving effort and that is not what u expect out of a professional team. Plain and simple the Cavs are a bad team and they are only hurting themselves because the whole NBA is watching this.

Also I think teams are beating our heads in because of all that dancing over the years. Looks like it's biting them right in the *** an teams are coming for there necks.

This pretty much says anything I could have wanted to say about this, but better, especially since it's coming from a Cavs fan.

The only thing I'd add is that it really doesn't matter to me how the individuals on that team stand with respect to the rest of the league. Because the entire concept of that team, everything its chemistry and dynamics was built on, was one thing and one thing only: Something to build around LeBron. Something which would (from the FO's point of view), hopefully both keep him happy in terms of being able to run things on the court, and also actually have a good shot at providing enough support for him to win a title. But the entire universe of that team revolved around him, and it should be no surprise that the bottom fell out when he split.

Grifftiggs
12-12-2010, 12:52 PM
No No Lebron wasnt important to Clev. Why is this even a thread. Obvioulsly losing a Top 2 NBA player is devistating.

JordansBulls
12-12-2010, 12:52 PM
Also the East is much stronger now than it was the past 2 years.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 12:53 PM
Also the East is much stronger now than it was the past 2 years.

it may be top heavy, but you will have to forgive me for not thinking the east is "strong" when a 38 win team will probably be in the playoffs. They are top heavy. The Cavs will get plenty of games against mediocre and crappy teams.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 12:56 PM
then what did your post mean? Are you attempting to say Shaq from last year had the impact of the Shaq many remember dominating? What the hell does your post mean? Comedy hour?

Where were you Laker fans last year? You guys all were the ones saying that roster could NEVER stack up and win it all with LeBron on it, and now you guys flip over like a scared dog and claim that roster was stacked.

Its unreal how contradicting many of you are.

The guy was saying shaq and big Z wouldnt help at all, and that shaqs production was due to lebron.
He also said leon powe was as good as him.. yea 42% shooting, 4PPG leon powe is as good as shaq.. OK.

The roster w/o lebron was not stacked, but it was pretty solid.
Probably a playoff team in the east.
Nowhere do you see me saying it was stacked.
You assume an awful lot of things for a mod.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 12:58 PM
This pretty much says anything I could have wanted to say about this, but better, especially since it's coming from a Cavs fan.

The only thing I'd add is that it really doesn't matter to me how the individuals on that team stand with respect to the rest of the league. Because the entire concept of that team, everything its chemistry and dynamics was built on, was one thing and one thing only: Something to build around LeBron. Something which would (from the FO's point of view), hopefully both keep him happy in terms of being able to run things on the court, and also actually have a good shot at providing enough support for him to win a title. But the entire universe of that team revolved around him, and it should be no surprise that the bottom fell out when he split.

see, your second paragraph demonstrates exactly why LeBron was so important. its not simply that he has been the best player in the NBA for a few years. Its the structure of the team. The Lakers for instance. Kobe of course is very important. But they bring in players for a system (triangle, etc), meaning there are many times seamless transitions when players leave and enter. The Cavs were not built that way. LeBron was everything on that team. The scorer, facilitator, rebounder, leader, everything. No other star was asked to do so much individually. And if he hadn't performed like that, his supporting roster was not capable of winning games at the rate many other superstars get bailed out when they have bad games or stretches.

Its not as easy as removing player A from team B. Its waaaaaaaaaaay more than that. We are now seeing that Cleveland's front office assembled a roster full of nothing but role players. Without their leader, they are toast.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 01:01 PM
The guy was saying shaq and big Z wouldnt help at all, and that shaqs production was due to lebron.

The roster w/o lebron was not stacked, but it was pretty solid.
Probably a playoff team in the east.
Nowhere do you see me saying it was stacked.
You assume an awful lot of things for a mod.

Shaq and Big Z were simply role players. And in the playoffs, they became a liability in the Boston series. Never understood why Brown played them in that series.

Pretty solid? That same roster (with some adjustments, but with the same talent level) is 7-16.

There is no way that was a playoff team. None.

And I am speaking to Laker nation. With the exception of a few of you, you have all flipped your opinion on the roster LeBron had.

What does me being a mod have anything to do with it?

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 01:02 PM
see, your second paragraph demonstrates exactly why LeBron was so important. its not simply that he has been the best player in the NBA for a few years. Its the structure of the team. The Lakers for instance. Kobe of course is very important. But they bring in players for a system (triangle, etc), meaning there are many times seamless transitions when players leave and enter. The Cavs were not built that way. LeBron was everything on that team. The scorer, facilitator, rebounder, leader, everything. No other star was asked to do so much individually. And if he hadn't performed like that, his supporting roster was not capable of winning games at the rate many other superstars get bailed out when they have bad games or stretches.

Its not as easy as removing player A from team B. Its waaaaaaaaaaay more than that. We are now seeing that Cleveland's front office assembled a roster full of nothing but role players. Without their leader, they are toast.

And i touched on some of these points earlier in the thread.
Just more reasons why the supporting cast was better than the current record makes it seem.

dunedinjays
12-12-2010, 01:03 PM
Wheres the faith in self proclaimed all star Mo Williams?

JasonJohnHorn
12-12-2010, 01:04 PM
It is obvious how important LBJ was to this team, but had the team retained Shaq and Big Z, they would certainly be better than they are now.


What is more interesting is how important these guys were to LBJ. LBJ finally has two legit all-stars on his team, yet they are only 3-10 or 11 against teams over .500 (I'm not sure exactly and dont feel like looking it up). They are on a win streak right now, but have only played 2 .500+ clubs in that streak.

The Cavs were clearly going to be a bad team without LBJ, because they build a team around him. They put players around him that complimented him (with the exception of Jamison). They only thing they were missing with LBJ was a strong 3PT shooter on the wing.

the Cavs are awful without James, but James is not likely to post his 3rd consecutive 60+ win season, or win his 3rd straight MVP award.

So the question to me is: were the Cavs more important to James than he was to them?

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 01:06 PM
And i touched on some of these points earlier in the thread.
Just more reasons why the supporting cast was better than the current record makes it seem.

not really. Other way around dude. The cast was better because LeBron made them better. He is gone now. So they resort to role players with no star. This isn't an equation that wins games over the course of a season.

None of your logic makes sense. And again, its hilarious that you are trying to tell me that roster was good.

Oh well. Keep coming up with whatever you like to justify your opinions. The proof is in the pudding (or should I say the record). These LeBron threads have gotten tiresome. I do enjoy watching many LeBron fans stick their foot in their mouth though

topdog
12-12-2010, 01:06 PM
Obviously, a team of role players isn't going to be very good when the star they were brought in to play off of is gone.

dunedinjays
12-12-2010, 01:07 PM
So the question to me is: were the Cavs more important to James than he was to them?

Obviously the latter. An MVP means little without a championship ie Steve Nash

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 01:08 PM
not really. Other way around dude. The cast was better because LeBron made them better. He is gone now. So they resort to role players with no star. This isn't an equation that wins games over the course of a season.

None of your logic makes sense. And again, its hilarious that you are trying to tell me that roster was good.

Oh well. Keep coming up with whatever you like to justify your opinions. The proof is in the pudding (or should I say the record). These LeBron threads have gotten tiresome. I do enjoy watching many LeBron fans stick their foot in their mouth though
:eyebrow:

So according to you, Good role players not being very successful without the star means they weren't good role players?
And my logic is bad?

The team was built to compliment lebron.
They lost lebron, and other significant pieces. Its not shocking they are struggling.
struggling gutted team =/= His supporting cast was bad.

They had the best record in the entire NBA the last 2 seasons.
but no you want to pin it all on lebron.
Its no wonder you didnt understand my previous posts.

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 01:29 PM
And i touched on some of these points earlier in the thread.
Just more reasons why the supporting cast was better than the current record makes it seem.

No..actually their current record and even their record the past few seasons with Lebron sitting (check for yourself their record when Lebron would sit even against bad teams) proves how weak that roster was from 2-15 outside of lebron. I would take the roster from 3-15 as long as lebron had a true franchise level 2nd fiddle (think Amare for example when they were trying to get him). Mo Williams CAN NOT be your 2nd best player.

The gap between Lebron and the so called "2nd fiddle" was waaayyyy too huge of a gap which isn't the case for the lakers which is why the Lakers would still win even in 10-15 game stretches of Kobe shooting 40% from the field. Lebron could never play that bad and expect the cavs to win.

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 01:33 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ilgauzy01&y1=2010&p2=onealsh01&y2=2010

I think many of you are really overrating having Shaq and Big Z. And Brown??????????????????????? Really???????????? His inability to make the simplest adjustments in the playoffs helped cause their demise.
"Gee, our one advantage up front is athletic ability with Anderson, Hickson, Moon, etc. But instead, I am going to play Shaq and Big Z, whom an aging KG, and slow footed Perkins, will have no issue guarding"

Hahha..true story!!


Keep em' coming guys. Fact is, Lebron was the Cavs. I have been saying this for 4 years, and ever since I have been here. And its now showing. I don't see how replacing role players with other role players gives anyone the opinion that this team, in principal, is any different talent wise, than the last 4-5 years, minus one SF

exactly:clap:

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 01:36 PM
No offense but this thread is one of those "no duh" threads. The Cav's built the team around Lebron. Lebron was a ball hog one man show. Take out that center peace and of coarse the Cav's will struggle. My question to the Cav's: Once they knew Lebron was gone, why didn't they go after some of the other big free agents?

all NBA teams are "built around" their best player but for elite teams you need atleast 2 franchise level players to get a title and that's what the cavs never had. The Lakers? KObe can miss the entire season right now and the Lakers are a 50 win team easily.

handle
12-12-2010, 01:39 PM
When any team loses their best player, the same player that their offense was built to highlight, and get nothing in return, they're most likely going to suck the next year and need time to adjust, especially in the first half of the season.

Looking at the Cavs record now isn't a fair or accurate indicator of exactly what LeBron meant to their team. It's not as simplistic as you lose your best player, you suck, and the more you suck, the better that player was overall. And don't forget they also have a new coach. If you want a more accurate indicator, see what their record is after next year.

DLeeicious
12-12-2010, 01:46 PM
One thing that people don't look at is this... first off that team had Shaq, who believe it or not, is a top 5 center in this league still. Big Z who is one of the better backup centers in the league, even though he is old... no Delonte either, who was always solid for the Cavs.

Next, what people fail to understand is that they built this team around Lebron's ability. The Cleveland Cavs are the Anti-Heat in that they are just a bunch of role players. I really think that if you put a guy who can score, i.e. Kobe, Carmelo, Durant, etc. on the Cavs, they'd be a good team. Look at their team though... their leading scorer averages 15 ppg, and they don't have a leader.

The Cavs players are getting knocked unfairly here IMO, they have great 3 point shooters, good rebounders, etc., but again, nobody who can score. If you put Kobe, Durant, Melo on that team, not only would they get 27+ppg, but they'd also command a double and get other guys easy looks. There is no team built like the Cavs in the league right now... what I mean by that is that the Cavs' best player is the worst in the league in comparison to every other team's best player. Name another team who's best player is worse then the Cavs best player? You probably can't....

This. The team was built around Lebron, it's not that the players are awful, but they are missing the glue that held them together. The NBA is all about team structure, they had a great structure in Cleveland with Lebron, now we are seeing a total blow up without him.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 01:53 PM
When any team loses their best player, the same player that their offense was built to highlight, and get nothing in return, they're most likely going to suck the next year and need time to adjust, especially in the first half of the season.

Looking at the Cavs record now isn't a fair or accurate indicator of exactly what LeBron meant to their team. It's not as simplistic as you lose your best player, you suck, and the more you suck, the better that player was overall. And don't forget they also have a new coach. If you want a more accurate indicator, see what their record is after next year.


This. The team was built around Lebron, it's not that the players are awful, but they are missing the glue that held them together. The NBA is all about team structure, they had a great structure in Cleveland with Lebron, now we are seeing a total blow up without him.
Exactly. great points ^^

Think of it as a puzzle. If you take away a piece your puzzle sucks.
Does that mean the other pieces weren't good when you had the puzzle together? Ofcourse not.

ink
12-12-2010, 02:01 PM
That's great and ur opinion, but still has nothing to do with my post as I was mentioning the LeQuit people who said it was his fault the cabs never made I and he therefor quit on them when in fact this thread and the cabs record show it's quite the opposite and that the cabs team quit on him and they werent enough.

That didn't make a whole lot of sense. btw, they are the caVs, not the cabs. I don't think you get why people were mad at Lebron if you're trying to portray it that way. Anyway, let's get back on topic. It's obvious that Lebron meant a lot to the team.

ink
12-12-2010, 02:03 PM
This. The team was built around Lebron, it's not that the players are awful, but they are missing the glue that held them together. The NBA is all about team structure, they had a great structure in Cleveland with Lebron, now we are seeing a total blow up without him.

Good point. It's like the team was built around a hub (Lebron). Take away that hub and you really aren't left with much, just a bunch of disconnected pieces. That's not a reflection on the players but on the structure as you say. They will have to completely rebuild.

DeyAce
12-12-2010, 02:14 PM
everyone knew they would be garbage w/o bron.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 02:20 PM
everyone knew they would be garbage w/o bron.

pull up threads from the last two years regarding LeBron's support. You will see most here thought he had a fabulous cast with tons of talent

bathroom_man
12-12-2010, 02:29 PM
the cavs without lebron james are just a bunch of good complimentary players, of course they gunna suck bad without him

lebron should demanded a franchise player like stoudamire, etc but instead he wanted Shaq, Jamison (role players)

maybe he just want to be surrounded with sucky players so he can be the main man. but now realized that doesnt workout so he join 2 other superstars

pedrofan45
12-12-2010, 02:31 PM
when you lose the best player in the game you're obviously going to see a significant drop off

SteBO
12-12-2010, 02:45 PM
I think the general idea by logical fans is they know his team wasn't good enough to win, but he should have stayed anyway, and continued trying to recruit for the Cavs.

LeBron actually tried to get Bosh in Cleveland, but remember bosh said he didn't want to go there. In addition to that, I don't know if Cleveland had the flexibility to improve their roster, too many bad contracts, most notably Shaq and Jamison

KTheo77
12-12-2010, 02:46 PM
Lebron didn't mean anything to this team. Heck they are gonna win an NBA championship now that he's gone, just ask Dan Gilbert.

godolphins
12-12-2010, 02:50 PM
I'm not suprise

HarrisMonster52
12-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Obviously Lebron was the team, if he wasnt such a money hog he could have taken less money and let them get good pieces in place in put the team over the top.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Obviously Lebron was the team, if he wasnt such a money hog he could have taken less money and let them get good pieces in place in put the team over the top.

no way. They would not have been able to sign anything relevant for at least two more years with their contracts.

And couldn't the same thing be said of any star? Regarding them taking less money? How many do it?

SteBO
12-12-2010, 03:04 PM
no way. They would not have been able to sign anything relevant for at least two more years with their contracts.

And couldn't the same thing be said of any star? Regarding them taking less money? How many do it?

Well said. LeBron has said time and time again that he wants to win a championship. He did what he could in Cleveland, but the supporting cast simply wasn't good enough. I'm tired of hearing that Mo williams and antawn Jamison were all-stars. HELL NO! Antawn Jamison is old already and Mo Williams only got in as a replacement for Chris Bosh, he isn't really an All-Star. TO make it worse, what Hawkeye said, they couldn't really improve their roster because of the contracts they had locked for at least 2 more years. If LeBron wants a championship, why would he put himself in that situation.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:06 PM
Well said. LeBron has said time and time again that he wants to win a championship. He did what he could in Cleveland, but the supporting cast simply wasn't good enough. I'm tired of hearing that Mo williams and antawn Jamison were all-stars. HELL NO! Antawn Jamison is old already and Mo Williams only got in as a replacement for Chris Bosh, he isn't really an All-Star. TO make it worse, what Hawkeye said, they couldn't really improve their roster because of the contracts they had locked for at least 2 more years. If LeBron wants a championship, why would he put himself in that situation.

You mean the situation of having the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row, and playing for the team you promised a championship to?

NYtilIdie
12-12-2010, 03:31 PM
You mean the situation of having the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row, and playing for the team you promised a championship to?

All because of Lebron, that team doesn't look anything like they did the last 2 years, why? Well I guess you can figure that out yourself.

Well im sure if Lebron knew the best Gilbert could do was a 38 yr. old Shaq and a 34 yr. old Antawn Jamison, im sure he would have never made that promise.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:35 PM
All because of Lebron, that team doesn't look anything like they did the last 2 years, why? Well I guess you can figure that out yourself.

Well im sure if Lebron knew the best Gilbert could do was a 38 yr. old Shaq and a 34 yr. old Antawn Jamison, im sure he would have never made that promise.

:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 03:43 PM
You mean the situation of having the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row, and playing for the team you promised a championship to?

so he is supposed to stay with a team that has had 7 years to get the equation right, and get him legit help to win it all and failed to do so? While knowing they are financially hamstrung a minimum of two more years of his prime?

Cmon now. At least he never demanded to be traded like some superstars out there...

NYtilIdie
12-12-2010, 03:45 PM
:facepalm:


that team doesn't look anything like they did the last 2 years

Did ya miss that part?

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:50 PM
so he is supposed to stay with a team that has had 7 years to get the equation right, and get him legit help to win it all and failed to do so? While knowing they are financially hamstrung a minimum of two more years of his prime?

Cmon now. At least he never demanded to be traded like some superstars out there...

I'll repeat, His supporting cast was good enough to get his team the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row. That isnt legit help?

Abandoning your tier-1 team in a scummy fashion after promising to win a championship there is clearly better than asking for help or to be traded?

Did ya miss that part?

maybe i misunderstood what you were trying to say.

h2r09
12-12-2010, 03:52 PM
I'll repeat, His supporting cast was good enough to get his team the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row. That isnt legit help?

Abandoning your tier-1 team in a scummy fashion after promising to win a championship there is clearly better than asking for help or to be traded?

because he was that good. he was surrounded by old over paid big men and shooters that he made much better. his team was built around him and to win in the regular season, but clearly not in the playoffs.

he didnt abandon him. he didnt stop playing in 09 and ask for a trade. he fulfilled his contract and moved on, maybe you should as well.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 03:55 PM
I'll repeat, His supporting cast was good enough to get his team the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row. That isnt legit help?

Abandoning your tier-1 team in a scummy fashion after promising to win a championship there is clearly better than asking for help or to be traded?


maybe i misunderstood what you were trying to say.

its the other way around. LeBron was good enough to carry a bunch of average role players to the best record in the league two years.

And I never liked the way he left, but your damn right its worse to ask to be traded then just leave when your contract ends.

Should he have made promises? No. You can't play by yourself. But LeBron leaving was a choice he should have made for his desire to win. He wasnt doing it in Cleveland anytime soon.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 03:59 PM
because he was that good. he was surrounded by old over paid big men and shooters that he made much better. his team was built around him and to win in the regular season, but clearly not in the playoffs.

he didnt abandon him. he didnt stop playing in 09 and ask for a trade. he fulfilled his contract and moved on, maybe you should as well.

I suppose it was lebron who defended everyone and made them a top 7 defending team the past 2 years and 4th in their finals appearance year.

Yes they were built around him. That is not a detriment when lebron was there.
Built to win in the regular season but not the playoffs? you sound like trent "corndog" dilfer.

RulerSlick
12-12-2010, 04:07 PM
I suppose it was lebron who defended everyone and made them a top 7 defending team the past 2 years and 4th in their finals appearance year.



Lebron impact on the 08-09 team defensive wise was unheard of from a perimeter player tha's how much he impacted their defense.

h2r09
12-12-2010, 04:09 PM
I suppose it was lebron who defended everyone and made them a top 7 defending team the past 2 years and 4th in their finals appearance year.

Yes they were built around him. That is not a detriment when lebron was there.
Built to win in the regular season but not the playoffs? you sound like trent "corndog" dilfer.

are you really trying to say that there is no difference in the play b/t the regular season in the playoffs? if you are saying that then you are just plain wrong.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 04:10 PM
I suppose it was lebron who defended everyone and made them a top 7 defending team the past 2 years and 4th in their finals appearance year.

Yes they were built around him. That is not a detriment when lebron was there.
Built to win in the regular season but not the playoffs? you sound like trent "corndog" dilfer.

I don't feel like digging into threads from the last two years, but I have explained why they were not a threat on many occasions. Feel free to go find them if you care.

You and I are not going to agree on this. Was his cast just good enough to win a bunch of games? Yep. Were they good? Nope. There is a difference.

AddiX
12-12-2010, 04:12 PM
The Cavs were built specifically around Lebron.

Every guy there was there to make Bron better and to get the most out of his game. I don't know why people don't understand this.

So now that they are without him, of course they are bad. They lost the key to the tea.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't feel like digging into threads from the last two years, but I have explained why they were not a threat on many occasions. Feel free to go find them if you care.

You and I are not going to agree on this. Was his cast just good enough to win a bunch of games? Yep. Were they good? Nope. There is a difference.

How were they not good?
They helped win a ton of games(the most in the league), they were often efficient and nice compliments to lebron, great team defense, but no its a bad supporting cast based on you said so.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 04:33 PM
How were they not good?
They helped win a ton of games(the most in the league), they were often efficient and nice compliments to lebron, great team defense, but no its a bad supporting cast based on you said so.

they did have a good defense, sure. And they were nice COMPLIMENTS, sure. But when you basically stack them up, player by player, to the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, Mavs, or Magic, the talent level disparity between the casts minus the star player on those teams, and the Cavs, is enormous. I understand its all a puzzle. But its basically a fact that LeBron did not have the individual talent around him any other star did. Not even close.

You are posting in circles. You understand my opinion at this point.

Hoopsadvocate
12-12-2010, 04:43 PM
That didn't make a whole lot of sense. btw, they are the caVs, not the cabs. I don't think you get why people were mad at Lebron if you're trying to portray it that way. Anyway, let's get back on topic. It's obvious that Lebron meant a lot to the team.

Ya sorry typing from an iPhone sucks and correcting mistakes is a pain so I don't really care enough to fix them, id thought you'd be smart enough to fill in the blanks like cabs = cavs. You don't seem to understand this is not abou why people are mad at lebron I have no idea why it arguing it it's not up for discussion I simply was calling out one particular type of lebron critic not all of them for the billionth time idk how this is hard to comprehend.

Simply said when it comes to the argument that lebron never had enough help those critics who said he had enough and should have won are wrong. Just the simple no need to being up the decision or who he joined just that that cavs team sucked an wasn't good enough not lebron.

thekmp211
12-12-2010, 04:55 PM
cavs need to strip it down. most of their guys have value in the league, but are just terrible together. more so, they've clearly bought into this fact and are just terrible.

at present, they have the gloomiest outlook in the league. literally not one young talent who looks like a starter (don't start with j.j. hickson).

speaking of hickson, how ******** does cleveland look for refusing to give him up for amar'e in a trade last year? amar'e comes, lebron likely stays.

kblo247
12-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Good point. It's like the team was built around a hub (Lebron). Take away that hub and you really aren't left with much, just a bunch of disconnected pieces. That's not a reflection on the players but on the structure as you say. They will have to completely rebuild.

I agree with this as this team is the equivalent of taking Iverson away from the Sixers team that made the finals, which was built specifically to compliment his strengths and deficiencies only.

DWills
12-12-2010, 05:49 PM
How were they not good?
They helped win a ton of games(the most in the league), they were often efficient and nice compliments to lebron, great team defense, but no its a bad supporting cast based on you said so.

you clearly dont watch much basketball

lbj made them all better than they actually are......that team is legit trash

ink
12-12-2010, 05:58 PM
Ya sorry typing from an iPhone sucks and correcting mistakes is a pain so I don't really care enough to fix them, id thought you'd be smart enough to fill in the blanks like cabs = cavs. You don't seem to understand this is not abou why people are mad at lebron I have no idea why it arguing it it's not up for discussion I simply was calling out one particular type of lebron critic not all of them for the billionth time idk how this is hard to comprehend.

Simply said when it comes to the argument that lebron never had enough help those critics who said he had enough and should have won are wrong. Just the simple no need to being up the decision or who he joined just that that cavs team sucked an wasn't good enough not lebron.

Are you typing on an iPhone now? Because your post is still unclear. Let's forget it.

ink
12-12-2010, 06:00 PM
I agree with this as this team is the equivalent of taking Iverson away from the Sixers team that made the finals, which was built specifically to compliment his strengths and deficiencies only.

And both of those players are arguably flawed/difficult to build around. So when they leave, the team ends up being pretty bizarre. You wonder why that group of players was ever put together.

cambovenzi
12-12-2010, 06:02 PM
you clearly dont watch much basketball

lbj made them all better than they actually are......that team is legit trash

Yep lebron made them play great D.
Lebron also made Mo williams, shaq, etc put up similar production to what they've done recently w/o him.
Amazing logic bro. go watch your games and pretend your eyes are better than mine+stats.

Bruno
12-12-2010, 06:21 PM
Also the East is much stronger now than it was the past 2 years.

What's funny about that, and this thread is that as bad as The Cavs are playing, they're still only 2.5 games out of the 8th spot. Despite a 7 game losing streak, and being 2-8 over their past ten games.


so he is supposed to stay with a team that has had 7 years to get the equation right, and get him legit help to win it all and failed to do so? While knowing they are financially hamstrung a minimum of two more years of his prime?

Cmon now. At least he never demanded to be traded like some superstars out there...

I think this is where I break with ya Hawkeye. IMO James should have requested a trade. IMO, LeBron not requesting a trade and making it seem as if everything was fine is worse than a player requesting a trade.

Using Bryant as a recent/convenient example, he put public pressure on his own management to bring in the pieces he needed to win; it wasn't a popular request. Bryant said "It takes pressure to create a diamond", as a result of his 2007 summer trade requests his team have been to three straight NBA finals. If LeBron had requested a trade, and had made public that he wasn't going to re-sign if things didn't change, the Cavs would have either tried appeased him, or traded him and get some value in return. LeBron knew that if he was traded, he would have most likely been sent to a mediocre destination, with less winning potential than his own Cavs team. He never did it so he could in effect hold all the aces, and all the power. That's my big problem with the Decision, in comparison to a player requesting a trade; at least the team sending out the disgruntled player would have gotten something in return, they wouldn't have been left with nothing in return, like Cleveland did. As a result of LeBron keeping his mouth shut, the Cavs brought in Shaq and Jamison, two players who don't fit James game, in a half assed attempt to try and make things work.

Off-topic but IMO Bryants 2007 summer trade request was the smartest thing he could have done in his professional career.


Good point. It's like the team was built around a hub (Lebron). Take away that hub and you really aren't left with much, just a bunch of disconnected pieces. That's not a reflection on the players but on the structure as you say. They will have to completely rebuild.

This is a great point that isn't getting a lot of attention. When you build a team around the strengths/weaknesses of one MVP caliber player, and that player leaves, the glue is gone. The Cavs under James had fantastic team work and synergy.


I have one question. If the ultra-talented Miami Heat win as many, or less games as the 2008-2010 Cavs, what does that say about LeBron and the Cavs? What does it say about the importance of teamwork/a team being more than just the sum of their parts? If The Heat win equal or less games as LeBron did with the Cavs, how does that reflect on LeBron, the Cavs, and the Heat?

_KB24_
12-12-2010, 06:51 PM
How'd I skip over this one? One quick question, why didn't you ever hype up the Cavs last year? Why are you trying to make them sound better NOW, and not then? The lengths people will go to throw dirt on LeBron :facepalm:

That front court would get abused by every single team in the league. You really are trying to suggest that losing Shaq and Z, who are a combined age of like 76 or something, is a huge loss? They stunk last year. There is one scorer in the back court. Shaq and Z aren't going to make any difference on a team like that. They can have success when they play minimal minutes and on a team with great players around them...AKA as role players. You can't be a role player on that Cavs team because there aren't any star players. They are better off with Hickson starting over Shaq/Z.

As Hawkeye said, Z was an absolute non-factor in the playoffs last year, and you could easily argue that Shaq was more of a liability than not...and 16 minutes a game isn't really going to make a huge difference anyways.

The Cavs team this year would be just as (in)effective this year as they would have been last year. Z, Shaq and Delonte were not integral parts to the team's success last year. There was one person who was. West is a good player, but was abysmal late in the season. Hell, Leon Powe's production is as good as Shaq's was last year.


Oh, and now LeBron was just a ballhog. Nice.

First off, I've said from said from day one that the previous Cavs teams were not better than either Boston LA or even Orlando. They were a great team, but not as unstoppable as many, including you, claimed them to be last year.

Look at Game 3 from last year. The Cleveland frontcourt outplayed the Boston frontcourt by a wide margin, and the Cavs won the game by double digits. Game 4, Shaq was their best player on the floor for that night, so I don't know what the hell your talking about when saying he was a "liability" on the floor. Game 1, once again the Cleveland frontcourt outscored Boston.

Lebron, no doubt, was the most important to his team last year, but to say that he had no help is ridiculous. He had proven all-stars on that team from less than a season ago, and the way they crashed out in the second round again like that, falls on him.

Chronz
12-12-2010, 06:57 PM
Bron had All-Stars? Where?

Quick how many All-NBA caliber players did Bron ever play with?

Raidaz4Life
12-12-2010, 07:04 PM
Thats what happens when you build a team around one player and then take him off the team. Nobody on the Cavs appears to know how to play without Lebron at this point.

kyubi256
12-12-2010, 07:34 PM
Well when you lose your true "PG"... your ball distributor it is hard to run the game. And when you lose your superstar that can carry the team whenever it is needed, it is hard to play well

daleja424
12-12-2010, 07:37 PM
lol...I keep hearing that they built a team around Lebron... thats a JOKE!

If they had built a team around him they would have won and he would still be there. They didnt build a team at all. The best player Lebron ever played with was Mo friggin Williams.

JordansBulls
12-12-2010, 07:40 PM
lol...I keep hearing that they built a team around Lebron... thats a JOKE!

If they had built a team around him they would have won and he would still be there. They didnt build a team at all. The best player Lebron ever played with was Mo friggin Williams.

Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.

daleja424
12-12-2010, 07:51 PM
Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.

how are guys that were already there when Lebron got there considered "building around him."

and regaurdless of that... Big Z's career year was a 17 point/8.5 rebound year... HARDLY elite. He was a pretty good player... but come on, he hasnt even been AVERAGE in years

SteBO
12-12-2010, 07:56 PM
Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.
Big Z was old already, but I'll agree with you about Boozer. On top of that, they didn't have true championship aspirations then. They didn't even make the playoffs the first 2 years LeBron was there. Reality is, they didn't do a good enough job building a championship team around LeBron, plain and simple.

NYtilIdie
12-12-2010, 08:05 PM
First off, I've said from said from day one that the previous Cavs teams were not better than either Boston LA or even Orlando. They were a great team, but not as unstoppable as many, including you, claimed them to be last year.

Look at Game 3 from last year. The Cleveland frontcourt outplayed the Boston frontcourt by a wide margin, and the Cavs won the game by double digits. Game 4, Shaq was their best player on the floor for that night, so I don't know what the hell your talking about when saying he was a "liability" on the floor. Game 1, once again the Cleveland frontcourt outscored Boston.

Lebron, no doubt, was the most important to his team last year, but to say that he had no help is ridiculous. He had proven all-stars on that team from less than a season ago, and the way they crashed out in the second round again like that, falls on him.

What all-stars? Please don't tell me your comparing a 2008 Shaq to a 2009 Shaq because theres a huge drop-off there and it took two players to get hurt for Mo to get consideration.

Fact is, there were zero players from last years Cavs team outside of Lebron to make the ASG. He made a big deal about it because it was one of the few times that the team with the best record only has one all-star.

SteBO
12-12-2010, 08:11 PM
What all-stars? Please don't tell me your comparing a 2008 Shaq to a 2009 Shaq because theres a huge drop-off there and it took two players to get hurt for Mo to get consideration.

Fact is, there were zero players from last years Cavs team outside of Lebron to make the ASG. He made a big deal about it because it was one of the few times that the team with the best record only has one all-star.

:clap:Finally, somebody with perspective:clap:

Swashcuff
12-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Damn Hawkeye is just schooling guys here and he is yet to support himself with stats. If he was to do that i think some people may just delete their accounts because of how foolish they made themselves sound.

Swashcuff
12-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.

Wow!!! Simply WOW!!! Did you just say he had Carlos Boozer and Big Z as PROVEN All Star Caliber Players at the time they played with him. Ok hear this JB take Scottie Pippen off all those Bulls teams and replace him with Zyrundas Illgauskas tell me how many championships the Bulls win. You guys are being utterly ridiculous.

Z was an All Star at a time when the league had its WEAKEST crop of Centres in its history. So please stop with the ridiculousness you know if he went to the Bulls in the off-season you'd be singing ALL his praises.

HeatVsHate
12-12-2010, 11:22 PM
What all-stars? Please don't tell me your comparing a 2008 Shaq to a 2009 Shaq because theres a huge drop-off there and it took two players to get hurt for Mo to get consideration.

Fact is, there were zero players from last years Cavs team outside of Lebron to make the ASG. He made a big deal about it because it was one of the few times that the team with the best record only has one all-star.

Totally Agree.

That proves LBJ's worth for Cavs, and to all those who yet cant accept that just watch the Cavs play today.

I pity their coach, I think Dan with his pride is just pressuring him that is why he is saying they have not given up the playoff run to prove to lebron that he has given him good supporting cast.

Bad move for Cavs in the long run, tanking is the best move for his franchise at this point.

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 11:34 PM
Bron had All-Stars? Where?

Quick how many All-NBA caliber players did Bron ever play with?

I didn't have to look that up. That would be a goose egg

Hawkeye15
12-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.

just because Big Z was an all star when LeBron was 20 and learning the league doesn't mean he was an all star when LeBron needed help. Boozer ditched him when he was young as well.
Basically, people see Big Z, Boozer, Shaq, or whomever, and think "well he was a bad *** at one point". Problem is, by the time LeBron needed their assistance, they were toast. And even more concerning, those fabulous role players from the regular season, completely melted down come playoff time. Unfortunately, you don't get to play the Wolves, Clippers, or Nets in a 7 game series.

The Cavs did THE BEST job of beating teams they should, meaning non-playoff teams, in their two year run of excellence. They were a good defensive team. They rebounded well. And they were totally, and completely dependant on LeBron doing everything. You can't name me another star, in the LAST 3 YEARS, so don't mention Smush freakin Parker, this is not the Kobe from 2005, that had to do as much as LeBron.

Sorry, some of that was a rant JB, not at you at all. But you understand how win shares are formulated. No player in the NBA has given their team more wins, by himself, than LeBron James in the past 2 years.

Swashcuff
12-12-2010, 11:39 PM
I didn't have to look that up. That would be a goose egg

Hawkeye what are you talking about he had Big Z AND Carlos Boozer 2 of the 3 greatest players in Cavs history :laugh::laugh::laugh:

cle12152433
12-13-2010, 12:05 AM
Hawkeye what are you talking about he had Big Z AND Carlos Boozer 2 of the 3 greatest players in Cavs history :laugh::laugh::laugh:

This is a stupid and ignorant post.

See Brad Daughtery, Austin Carr, Larry Nance.

Swashcuff
12-13-2010, 12:17 AM
This is a stupid and ignorant post.

See Brad Daughtery, Austin Carr, Larry Nance.

Dude don't you sense sarcasm when you see it? The way some posters were speaking earlier was as if they were 2 of the 3 greatest Cavs ever. :eyebrow:

Raph12
12-13-2010, 12:20 AM
You put Shaq, Z and Delonte back on this team and they contend to make playoffs, but yes, losing LBJ would definitely be huge to any team...

Hawkeye15
12-13-2010, 12:25 AM
You put Shaq, Z and Delonte back on this team and they contend to make playoffs, but yes, losing LBJ would definitely be huge to any team...

not really. They are role players at this stage, not players you can depend on to lead a team to wins. Hence why they seek out stars to play with at this point, outside West. He is just a role player in his prime, if that means anything

Swashcuff
12-13-2010, 12:26 AM
You put Shaq, Z and Delonte back on this team and they contend to make playoffs, but yes, losing LBJ would definitely be huge to any team...

Could you please explain your reasoning behind this. At this point in all their careers NONE of these players are going to make a difference of 5 games even combined they'd have to make a difference of possibly 15-18 games. That wasn't going to happen.

That logic in itself is also wrong.

RulerSlick
12-13-2010, 01:00 AM
Not true. Big Z was an allstar before Lebron ever came to the team and when Lebron made his first allstar team, Big Z was an allstar again. Also he had Carlos Boozer. I just wish he stayed there. But then again he got better once he left.

Are you f'n kidding me? The Boozer Lebron played with for a year or so wasn't even close to being an all star back then. Big Zreally wasn't an all star either but he was solid. You're making it sound like these dudes were on the level of Gasol and Lamar odom:laugh2:

kblo247
12-13-2010, 01:10 AM
The thing I don't get some people understanding is that Lebron's Cavs were a unique team built solely around him and not system, as he was the system. There are a few teams in the cent past that fall into this category:
- Dwight's Magic
- Paul's Hornets
- Iverson's Sixers (early 00s)

If you take any of those guys off those teams where they have players whose sole point is to make them look good on offense and cover up their weaknesses on defense (in Dwight's case reverse the statement) the team would suffer for a whole season .

The other thing that people are missing is that the Cavs made no friends with LeBron by posing for pics, dancing during games, and generally showing everyone they played up throughout the seasons

Swashcuff
12-13-2010, 01:21 AM
The thing I don't get some people understanding is that Lebron's Cavs were a unique team built solely around him and not system, as he was the system. There are a few teams in the cent past that fall into this category:
- Dwight's Magic
- Paul's Hornets
- Iverson's Sixers (early 00s)

If you take any of those guys off those teams where they have players whose sole point is to make them look good on offense and cover up their weaknesses on defense (in Dwight's case reverse the statement) the team would suffer for a whole season .

The other thing that people are missing is that the Cavs made no friends with LeBron by posing for pics, dancing during games, and generally showing everyone they played up throughout the seasons

That Iverson team also consisted of the COY, DPOY and 6MOY. 76ers ALSO tried at length TIME and TIME again to somehow get someone who could have been a LEGITIMATE second option to A.I. The realized that the supporting cast wasn't enough to beat the Lakers. And guess what there were right.

There is a reason also why the Magic and Hornets are ALWAYS in trade discussions. They both know that what they have was and will not be enough to contend.

You keep bringing points that just boosts LeBron's case. Give the man his props, he did something that most greats may not have been able to do.

Chi StateOfMind
12-13-2010, 01:27 AM
OHHH i didnt even know the cavs were a team i thought it was the Cleveland LeBron James'.........that team sucks n i hated LeBron for doin the city and team bogus but after he went into his old house n straight dic** the cavs i respect him wayyyyyyyyy more cuz it shows and tells us "Thats y he left because that was his team and that team SUCKS straight whack son

Tony_Starks
12-13-2010, 01:28 AM
It should be noted that Mo Williams was missing from some of those games and that he already has a game winner under his belt when he is playing.......

DWills
12-13-2010, 01:40 AM
Yep lebron made them play great D.
Lebron also made Mo williams, shaq, etc put up similar production to what they've done recently w/o him.
Amazing logic bro. go watch your games and pretend your eyes are better than mine+stats.

no i know u dont watch much basketball....its obv you have no intention of giving lebron credit for anything....ur prob still all butthurt that he didnt go to new york or whatever your reason is, but anyone who says that lebron didnt make them look better than they are obv doesnt watch basketball

Swashcuff
12-13-2010, 01:43 AM
Yep lebron made them play great D.
Lebron also made Mo williams, shaq, etc put up similar production to what they've done recently w/o him.
Amazing logic bro. go watch your games and pretend your eyes are better than mine+stats.

:facepalm: at your ignorance.

If you think LeBron didn't make his teammates better you are being utterly ridiculous.

RulerSlick
12-13-2010, 01:43 AM
It should be noted that Mo Williams was missing from some of those games and that he already has a game winner under his belt when he is playing.......

I believe MO Williams played in every game during their 7-9 game losing streak

Chi StateOfMind
12-13-2010, 01:52 AM
lebron made that entire team better he makes everyone around him better because of his unselfishness...he never wanted 2 drop 35 a game to win he just had no choice no one else stepped up 2 tha plate so he figured wade would

Sixerlover
12-13-2010, 01:56 AM
You guys trying to discredit LeBron's importance to the Cavs are impossible.

cle12152433
12-13-2010, 02:55 AM
Dude don't you sense sarcasm when you see it? The way some posters were speaking earlier was as if they were 2 of the 3 greatest Cavs ever. :eyebrow:

apologies

Hawkeye15
12-13-2010, 09:26 AM
The thing I don't get some people understanding is that Lebron's Cavs were a unique team built solely around him and not system, as he was the system. There are a few teams in the cent past that fall into this category:
- Dwight's Magic
- Paul's Hornets
- Iverson's Sixers (early 00s)

If you take any of those guys off those teams where they have players whose sole point is to make them look good on offense and cover up their weaknesses on defense (in Dwight's case reverse the statement) the team would suffer for a whole season .

The other thing that people are missing is that the Cavs made no friends with LeBron by posing for pics, dancing during games, and generally showing everyone they played up throughout the seasons

while I doubt you will find many that disagree with your evaluation, it simply doesn't change the fact that the TALENT of the players around LeBron was pitiful in comparison to the other contender's stars. Everyone is award the Cavs were built around LeBron. Partially because he is the only player currently that can put a team on his shoulders and win games, and partially because the Cavs front office was too inept to bring in another star to help carry the burden come playoff time.

SteBO
12-13-2010, 09:30 AM
while I doubt you will find many that disagree with your evaluation, it simply doesn't change the fact that the TALENT of the players around LeBron was pitiful in comparison to the other contender's stars. Everyone is award the Cavs were built around LeBron. Partially because he is the only player currently that can put a team on his shoulders and win games, and partially because the Cavs front office was too inept to bring in another star to help carry the burden come playoff time.

LeBron had a lot to do with this. They were close to pulling the trigger on Amare bt pulled back because of LeBron. Then they ended with Antawn Jamison, who didn't do **** when it mattered.

ewing
12-13-2010, 09:35 AM
Pretty important. I cant believe this is really a thread.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2010, 09:37 AM
LeBron had a lot to do with this. They were close to pulling the trigger on Amare bt pulled back because of LeBron. Then they ended with Antawn Jamison, who didn't do **** when it mattered.

they had 7 years to do this.

SteBO
12-13-2010, 09:40 AM
they had 7 years to do this.
I agree with u. I've said that before. The Cavs didn't do a good job getting real talent around Bron.

RulerSlick
12-13-2010, 04:00 PM
another crazy stat lol

The Cavs FG% differential is now -5.2%. You know what other team had a -5.2% differential in the past 5 yrs? The 12-win Nets of last year that threatened the single-season record for losses. And you know what other team had a differential of -5%? No one! In fact,there was only 1 other team with a differential below 4,and that was the '05-'06 CHA club

Hawkeye15
12-13-2010, 04:05 PM
7-17, 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Byron Scott (7-17)

PTS/G: 93.2 (29th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 102.9 (22nd of 30)
SRS: -9.25 (30th of 30) ▪ Pace: 92.8 (15th of 30)
Off Rtg: 100.5 (29th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 110.9 (25th of 30)
Expected W-L: 5-19 (30th of 30)


the Cavs will have the worst record in the east. Just like many of us said 2 months ago

RulerSlick
12-26-2010, 11:20 PM
Cavs sink to new low. How do you blow a 14 point lead in the 4th qtr with about 7 mins to go at home to the Timberwolves? Haha

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=301226005&period=4

Chronz
12-26-2010, 11:45 PM
LeBron had a lot to do with this. They were close to pulling the trigger on Amare bt pulled back because of LeBron. Then they ended with Antawn Jamison, who didn't do **** when it mattered.

I heard the cavs didn't want to part with jj, was that bruins doing?

arkanian215
12-26-2010, 11:46 PM
8-22. No wonder Cavs fans were burning James' jersey.

Gators123
12-26-2010, 11:47 PM
8-22. No wonder Cavs fans were burning James' jersey.

Some people thought they would win 40+ games and make the playoffs.....

arkanian215
12-26-2010, 11:48 PM
Some people thought they would win 40+ games and make the playoffs.....

Yeah I saw those posts. We'll see the full extent at the end of the season.

Sactown
12-26-2010, 11:54 PM
Lebron made all the players on the cavs look good.. D leaguers are going to hit open shots... They were all crap players and everyone knows it.. the reason the laker fans won't admit it is because they'd essentially be saying Lebron is better than Kobe.. which he clearly has been since entering the league.. If the Lakers lost Kobe they'd easily be a playoff team..

SteBO
12-27-2010, 12:11 AM
I heard the cavs didn't want to part with jj, was that bruins doing?
This is true too. Combination of both.

tjlipford
12-27-2010, 12:34 AM
Of course losing Lebron was important to the Cavs. Anybody who watched basketball for the last 7 years would see this.

Even me as a Cleveland fan knew that once he left that we would have to start all the way over. See the truth always showed when we played in the playoffs and we always collapsed or hit a road block. Lebron could win 60+ games in the season and be one of the best season teams with that Cavs team, but he needed a little help from his teammates to win a ring and they just didnt have the talent nor the heart. Seriously, though we just might be the worse team right now. They look pathetic out there.

masalex1205
12-27-2010, 12:58 AM
I think they're record this year isn't indicative of how good of a team they were last year because the Cavs were built around Lebron to his strengths and to mask his weaknesses. Sort of like taking the steering wheel off the car. I still think he had decent pieces (varejao, Mo williams) around him

JordansBulls
12-27-2010, 01:02 AM
East is much better, but also the team lost Shaq (3x finals mvp and league mvp winner) and Delonte West

kobe24>lebron23
12-27-2010, 01:10 AM
Lebron made all the players on the cavs look good.. D leaguers are going to hit open shots... They were all crap players and everyone knows it.. the reason the laker fans won't admit it is because they'd essentially be saying Lebron is better than Kobe.. which he clearly has been since entering the league.. If the Lakers lost Kobe they'd easily be a playoff team..

No Laker fan is saying lebron wasn't important cuz he was...but this post is so wrong and u totally disrespected Kobe you say lebron was better since entering the league now that's laughable half of the people here still think Kobe is the best including me... And really the lakers a playoff team??? No way dude the way their playing hells no they would not be a playoff team they'd be lucky to win 40 games... Yes lebron was really important to the cavs but Kobe is just as important to the lakers... He is basically the only one who tries and gives a **** even when nothing is going the lakers way... Look the lakers take what their leader does and gives them and Kobe sets up everything for them kobes mentality is something very few have ever had only players I can think of that have his killer mentality are mj magic bird and that's about it...the lakers would fold without Kobe without him ur left with gasol and he soft(the very best softy in the league) but the lakers would totally become the softest team in the league cuz as the leader goes so does the team... Yes lebron was hugely important to them big time but don't diminish what kobe has done and what he stands for in the NBA! Your post was so immature hmmm no wonder it's just as immature as ur boy in the sig Demarcus cousins!

topdog
12-27-2010, 01:20 AM
The team was built around him. Big surprise!

I never understood the moves Cleveland made though.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 01:22 AM
I still can't believe so many are surprised at how bad they are without him. I will leave it at that, since its all excuses when trying to attack how good LeBron has really been. No team was so dependant on their star. And no star could have done what LJ did. Not in this timeline

thekmp211
12-27-2010, 01:32 AM
^^ i can't help but feel vindicated. just another tool to use against lebron haters.

to blame lebron for the acquisition of this roster (something like "the cavs got all these guys to complement bron) is just nutty, too.

honestly, their biggest issue is leadership. not one of those guys is a leader. jamison is a nice veteran presence, but a leader he is most certainly not. mo williams is a little girl. the rest of the guys are too young, too unqualified or too terrible at basketball to assert any sort of authority. that is an issue, especially when it comes to struggling and identity. as untalented as they are, a veteran-ish team like that should be competing. the rolling over says to me that not one guy on that squad believes in himself or his teammates. pretty sad thing to say about "world class" athletes.

RulerSlick
12-27-2010, 01:49 AM
No Laker fan is saying lebron wasn't important cuz he was...but this post is so wrong and u totally disrespected Kobe you say lebron was better since entering the league now that's laughable half of the people here still think Kobe is the best including me... And really the lakers a playoff team??? No way dude the way their playing hells no they would not be a playoff team they'd be lucky to win 40 games... Yes lebron was really important to the cavs but Kobe is just as important to the lakers... He is basically the only one who tries and gives a **** even when nothing is going the lakers way... Look the lakers take what their leader does and gives them and Kobe sets up everything for them kobes mentality is something very few have ever had only players I can think of that have his killer mentality are mj magic bird and that's about it...the lakers would fold without Kobe without him ur left with gasol and he soft(the very best softy in the league) but the lakers would totally become the softest team in the league cuz as the leader goes so does the team... Yes lebron was hugely important to them big time but don't diminish what kobe has done and what he stands for in the NBA! Your post was so immature hmmm no wonder it's just as immature as ur boy in the sig Demarcus cousins!

Lakers are easily a 50 win team w/o Kobe. The Lkaers proved time and time again that they can win games even when Kobe goes an entire month of shooting like close to sub 40 FG%. Even the 60 win Cavs showed that if Lebron evn shot as low as 45%, they would struggle.

thekmp211
12-27-2010, 01:52 AM
No Laker fan is saying lebron wasn't important cuz he was...but this post is so wrong and u totally disrespected Kobe you say lebron was better since entering the league now that's laughable half of the people here still think Kobe is the best including me... And really the lakers a playoff team??? No way dude the way their playing hells no they would not be a playoff team they'd be lucky to win 40 games... Yes lebron was really important to the cavs but Kobe is just as important to the lakers... He is basically the only one who tries and gives a **** even when nothing is going the lakers way... Look the lakers take what their leader does and gives them and Kobe sets up everything for them kobes mentality is something very few have ever had only players I can think of that have his killer mentality are mj magic bird and that's about it...the lakers would fold without Kobe without him ur left with gasol and he soft(the very best softy in the league) but the lakers would totally become the softest team in the league cuz as the leader goes so does the team... Yes lebron was hugely important to them big time but don't diminish what kobe has done and what he stands for in the NBA! Your post was so immature hmmm no wonder it's just as immature as ur boy in the sig Demarcus cousins!


......

...your name is obsolete!

SchyGuy11
12-27-2010, 01:52 AM
he was the team duh

RulerSlick
12-27-2010, 01:55 AM
East is much better, but also the team lost Shaq (3x finals mvp and league mvp winner) and Delonte West

Shaq and Delonte didn't impact the Cavs last year.. Shaq was really only needed vs Orlando/Lakers because he actually made the cavs worse vs the other teams. Read the bolded..


Now that the Cavs are 7-16 are even getting demolished by bottom feaders we can and should all be able to see just how great lebron was to take that sorry *** roster to back to back 60 wins seasons. It's quite amazing actually when you think about it. Some important notes


Speaking of the departure of delonte, Shaq and Big Z

: Delonte was a non factor all of last season due to his mental/criminal issues and Shaq missed a third of the season along with Z missing over a month

: Delonte West and Big Z were bench players. Last year Shaq had a NEGATIVE +/- when he was on the floor

The past 2 years the Cavs were 33-7 without Delonte in the lineup.

:The Cavs went 40-13 with Shaq in the lineup.

:they went 21-4 without Shaq in the lineup (not counting the last 4 games when Lebron sat out)



..Remember every time Lebron would sit the Cavs would struggle and lose to bottom feeders? That's really unheard of on 60 win teams. When you're a 60 win/title contender type team you should be able to beat most teams most even w/o you best player playing or if they are having a bad game but with the Cavs, they couldn't even beat bottom feeders when Lebron didn't play!. The lakers consistently won/win games where Kobe goes 10-15 games stretched of almost sub 40% house building bricking. They did this because the roster was far superior to the Cavs outside of Lebron.

:also, outside of Lebron, Delonte and verjao, noone on that team played defense which got exposed by Boston in the playoffs. The most guilty of this on last years team was Jamison and Mo Williams, two dudes that you obviously needed for scoring reasons but they also would give up more than they would score. Just think back to how KG and Rondo raped Jamison and Mo Williams. If you don't believe this isn't still happening, go read the Cavs blogs or messageboards and all they do is complain about those 2 players lack of defense:facepalm:

all in all, it's pretty clear now Lebron had to be video game James to even try winning a title with that trash roster. He never played with a true in their prime 2nd fiddle (one able to carry a team to 50 wins like Kobe got with Gasol ).

The gap between Lebron and the Cavs so called "2nd fiddle" Mo Williams was way to wide to expect Lebron to win a title with that team and now that Lebron is gone, we can truly see just how no so great those other Cavs were especially the like of Mo Williams, Jamison and Hickson.

kobe24>lebron23
12-27-2010, 02:16 AM
Really easily a 50 win team come on trust me u need to really see laker games to notice Kobe sure his stats aren't as pretty as Lebrons but he does what lebron does too... Laker are not a 50 win team without Kobe they would struggle to win 40-45! Yeah I'm a laker fan and my username says alot but I gotta defend my boy here and not make him look like a role player compared to lebron... Kobe is the most hated athlete in the NBA maybe in all of sports and I can understand the hate I mean the man just wins and wins not to mention he's a laker lol... But seriously hate on me all you want I got my opinion and I'm sure most laker fans would agree with what I just said!

thekmp211
12-27-2010, 02:19 AM
Really easily a 50 win team come on trust me u need to really see laker games to notice Kobe sure his stats aren't as pretty as Lebrons but he does what lebron does too... Laker are not a 50 win team without Kobe they would struggle to win 40-45! Yeah I'm a laker fan and my username says alot but I gotta defend my boy here and not make him look like a role player compared to lebron... Kobe is the most hated athlete in the NBA maybe in all of sports and I can understand the hate I mean the man just wins and wins not to mention he's a laker lol... But seriously hate on me all you want I got my opinion and I'm sure most laker fans would agree with what I just said!

dude you need to chill...no one is calling kobe a role player, at worst most people are saying he's the third best player in the league.

as for most hated athlete...tiger woods comes to mind. brett favre. and i dunno if you heard about "The Decision" this summer, but that jerk has a lot of enemies too...

...the bolded comment sums up your angle nicely. as long as you can admit unbridled homerism no one will care that much. just don't make a claim to silly things like facts.

arkanian215
12-27-2010, 02:22 AM
Really easily a 50 win team come on trust me u need to really see laker games to notice Kobe sure his stats aren't as pretty as Lebrons but he does what lebron does too... Laker are not a 50 win team without Kobe they would struggle to win 40-45! Yeah I'm a laker fan and my username says alot but I gotta defend my boy here and not make him look like a role player compared to lebron... Kobe is the most hated athlete in the NBA maybe in all of sports and I can understand the hate I mean the man just wins and wins not to mention he's a laker lol... But seriously hate on me all you want I got my opinion and I'm sure most laker fans would agree with what I just said!

Why are you talking about the Lakers?

Sactown
12-27-2010, 02:35 AM
No Laker fan is saying lebron wasn't important cuz he was...but this post is so wrong and u totally disrespected Kobe you say lebron was better since entering the league now that's laughable half of the people here still think Kobe is the best including me... And really the lakers a playoff team??? No way dude the way their playing hells no they would not be a playoff team they'd be lucky to win 40 games... Yes lebron was really important to the cavs but Kobe is just as important to the lakers... He is basically the only one who tries and gives a **** even when nothing is going the lakers way... Look the lakers take what their leader does and gives them and Kobe sets up everything for them kobes mentality is something very few have ever had only players I can think of that have his killer mentality are mj magic bird and that's about it...the lakers would fold without Kobe without him ur left with gasol and he soft(the very best softy in the league) but the lakers would totally become the softest team in the league cuz as the leader goes so does the team... Yes lebron was hugely important to them big time but don't diminish what kobe has done and what he stands for in the NBA! Your post was so immature hmmm no wonder it's just as immature as ur boy in the sig Demarcus cousins!
Maybe saying LBJ was as good as Kobe when he came out was wrong, but the other statements are completely true.. a team with Ron ron, and Barnes will never be considered the softest team in the league.. The Lakers without Kobe could fight for an 8th-5th seed in the west.. As far as the killer instinct you couldn't be more right... As far as kobe having more skill then Lebron that is true as well, but Lebron is clearly the sup athlete and there's no denying that.. Lebron is clearly been the better player the last 2-3 year.. And the comment about my boy cousins.. Don't throw bricks when you're reppin a glass house

kobe24>lebron23
12-27-2010, 02:42 AM
Why are you talking about the Lakers?

Cuz some dude said something about the lakers and I responded isn't peoples opinion why threads are open? Yes lebron is great but if he doesn't win the championship there is no excuses for him this time cuz the heat r really good... It's pretty funny how people hate on the lakers though I mean why does everything that has to revolve around lebron involve the lakers and especially Kobe y is kobe always mentioned when a lebron thread is opened if lebron is the so called best then y is Kobe always brought along I say stop comparing them... Everyone has their opinion and I have mine I'll take jordans,the players, and coaches opinions on who's the best and not some psd poster after all those r the real people who witness their play in person! It sure sucks being a laker fan cuz we take alot of heat from the rest of the NBA fans!
But back to the topic yes lebron was really important to the cavs I respect that he took the team where he took them I just don't like him at all But I do respect him... Maybe cuz he was hyped from the start and rightfully so but I'm not one of those espn people who gets traumatized by them and hop on the lebron bandwagon I will say this he is unstoppable in the open court only thing I don't agree with is how he is number 1 without having won crap... After he wins a championship If ever I'll come here on psd and declare him the best player in the league (but he has to be the finals MVP) and you can quote me on that If you like!

kobe24>lebron23
12-27-2010, 02:44 AM
Maybe saying LBJ was as good as Kobe when he came out was wrong, but the other statements are completely true.. a team with Ron ron, and Barnes will never be considered the softest team in the league.. The Lakers without Kobe could fight for an 8th-5th seed in the west.. As far as the killer instinct you couldn't be more right... As far as kobe having more skill then Lebron that is true as well, but Lebron is clearly the sup athlete and there's no denying that.. Lebron is clearly been the better player the last 2-3 year.. And the comment about my boy cousins.. Don't throw bricks when you're reppin a glass house

There we go that and more reasonable lol see I can respect what u said now! Thanks for clarifying yourself...

arkanian215
12-27-2010, 02:50 AM
Cuz some dude said something about the lakers and I responded isn't peoples opinion why threads are open? Yes lebron is great but if he doesn't win the championship there is no excuses for him this time cuz the heat r really good... It's pretty funny how people hate on the lakers though I mean why does everything that has to revolve around lebron involve the lakers and especially Kobe y is kobe always mentioned when a lebron thread is opened if lebron is the so called best then y is Kobe always brought along I say stop comparing them... Everyone has their opinion and I have mine I'll take jordans,the players, and coaches opinions on who's the best and not some psd poster after all those r the real people who witness their play in person! It sure sucks being a laker fan cuz we take alot of heat from the rest of the NBA fans!
But back to the topic yes lebron was really important to the cavs I respect that he took the team where he took them I just don't like him at all But I do respect him... Maybe cuz he was hyped from the start and rightfully so but I'm not one of those espn people who gets traumatized by them and hop on the lebron bandwagon I will say this he is unstoppable in the open court only thing I don't agree with is how he is number 1 without having won crap... After he wins a championship If ever I'll come here on psd and declare him the best player in the league (but he has to be the finals MVP) and you can quote me on that If you like!

lol the first sentence would've been fine man. I only asked you why you brought it up.

As for what I bolded, look at your username.:laugh:

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 04:11 AM
Really easily a 50 win team come on trust me u need to really see laker games to notice Kobe sure his stats aren't as pretty as Lebrons but he does what lebron does too... Laker are not a 50 win team without Kobe they would struggle to win 40-45! Yeah I'm a laker fan and my username says alot but I gotta defend my boy here and not make him look like a role player compared to lebron... Kobe is the most hated athlete in the NBA maybe in all of sports and I can understand the hate I mean the man just wins and wins not to mention he's a laker lol... But seriously hate on me all you want I got my opinion and I'm sure most laker fans would agree with what I just said!

you need to chill dude.
Did I read that you said Kobe is the most hated athlete? Are you aware its 2010?
You are entitled to your opinion. But you never post anything that suggests someone should take your opinions seriously, since you never provide evidence.
Your name alone makes people pass you over.
The Lakers without Kobe would easily win 45+ games in the west. This isn't so much a slight at Kobe as its a credit to his owner, GM, coach, and roster support.
We are all seeing what the Cavs look like without their SF from the last 7 seasons.

cubs0707
12-27-2010, 04:14 AM
Really easily a 50 win team come on trust me u need to really see laker games to notice Kobe sure his stats aren't as pretty as Lebrons but he does what lebron does too... Laker are not a 50 win team without Kobe they would struggle to win 40-45! Yeah I'm a laker fan and my username says alot but I gotta defend my boy here and not make him look like a role player compared to lebron... Kobe is the most hated athlete in the NBA maybe in all of sports and I can understand the hate I mean the man just wins and wins not to mention he's a laker lol... But seriously hate on me all you want I got my opinion and I'm sure most laker fans would agree with what I just said!

:facepalm:

cchrisc773
12-27-2010, 10:34 AM
This is what everyone was telling Cav fans what the last 3 seasons or so? When they claimed to have the deepest team in the league. Without Lebron many said you guys where a 30-340 win team at best, so far so good. ORlando has been and has continues to be the deepest team in the league hands down. When Orlando moves that bum Duhon for a solid back-up Center. Take Howard off that team and they could still fight for a 8th seed in the East.

No other team in the NBA could say that. Take our best player and we can still make the playoffs.


Lakers- Without Kobe, NO. Though I think Gasol is as important.

Wade- Take James off that team NO. Not the same Heat team without Lebron, they lack depth and would struggle big time now minus Wade. I get it they made the playoffs last season, they also moved a ton of depth and talent to form the new Big 3.

Bosh- See Wade

Lebron- See Wade

The list can go on and on..... I just don't see any team deep enough to survive and have a playoff run minus the Magic. ( Currently though, NO. When they move Duhon and Q. Rich for a solid Back-Up Center? Yes.)

Sixerlover
12-27-2010, 12:33 PM
You guys don't think Fisher / Barnes / Artest / Gasol / Bynum 6th man Odom 7th man Blake is better than a Portland, New Orleans, or Phoenix team? Barring injuries I think they'd be a 6th - 8th seed in the west. They still have the best PF in the league and some intense defense.

Tony_Starks
12-27-2010, 04:04 PM
You seriously undervalued the contributions of Shaq, Big Z and Delonte. Seriously. Not saying they would be great if they still had them but they wouldn't be this bad either. Probably .500

macc
12-27-2010, 04:24 PM
you need to chill dude.
Did I read that you said Kobe is the most hated athlete? Are you aware its 2010?
You are entitled to your opinion. But you never post anything that suggests someone should take your opinions seriously, since you never provide evidence.
Your name alone makes people pass you over.
The Lakers without Kobe would easily win 45+ games in the west. This isn't so much a slight at Kobe as its a credit to his owner, GM, coach, and roster support.
We are all seeing what the Cavs look like without their SF from the last 7 seasons.


Hawkeye I respect your opinion but you are completly off on this one man. lol. Theres no way a Kobe less Lakers would make the playoffs in the West or even "easily" as you say win 40-45 games. Without Kobe you're talking a #1 option of Gasol, then who? Very inconsistant Artest and Odom? They would literally have noone on the peremeter who could create their own shot or create for others.

They are well coached and have some great system players. But you don't take the the 1-3 best player in the league off there team and tell me they will easily win 40-45 games in the West. The East maybe, but not the West.

What makes the West so good is that the majority of their teams have that play making peremter player. ie Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Kevin Durrant, Carmelo Anthony, Brandon Roy (used to be), Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Tony Parker and Manu. If you have zero playmakers, it makes the offense stagnant.

knicks4life33
12-27-2010, 04:29 PM
didnt the cavs win like 10 ina rown at the end of the season last year because lebron was crying that his elbow was hurting lol

cheetos185
12-27-2010, 04:32 PM
You guys don't think Fisher / Barnes / Artest / Gasol / Bynum 6th man Odom 7th man Blake is better than a Portland, New Orleans, or Phoenix team? Barring injuries I think they'd be a 6th - 8th seed in the west. They still have the best PF in the league and some intense defense.

your underestimating the impact of star player where was gasol in memphis? maybe they would be better than portland and phoenix but roy is injured and phoenix doesn't have any impact player a 40 year old nash and hill aren't carrying them far

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 04:32 PM
You seriously undervalued the contributions of Shaq, Big Z and Delonte. Seriously. Not saying they would be great if they still had them but they wouldn't be this bad either. Probably .500

ah, here it is again. Shaq and Big Z were pathetic last year, and even more so in the playoffs. If you think West is a difference maker, that is on you. The Cavs have 6 guys like West now, and suck.
Losing those three, and getting Sessions, Hollins, and with Hickson getting more looks and Jamison there for a full season, those 2 bums and West's role have been more than replaced.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 04:35 PM
your underestimating the impact of star player where was gasol in memphis? maybe they would be better than portland and phoenix but roy is injured and phoenix doesn't have any impact player a 40 year old nash and hill aren't carrying them far

Gasol is better now than when he was in Memphis, you know that.
But with seeds 6-8 a bit down in the west (meaning we may finallly see a sub 50 win team in the playoffs out west), the Lakers minus Kobe would probably slide right in at that 6-8 spot. Do they advance? Nah. But they make it in the tougher west.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 04:41 PM
Hawkeye I respect your opinion but you are completly off on this one man. lol. Theres no way a Kobe less Lakers would make the playoffs in the West or even "easily" as you say win 40-45 games. Without Kobe you're talking a #1 option of Gasol, then who? Very inconsistant Artest and Odom? They would literally have noone on the peremeter who could create their own shot or create for others.

They are well coached and have some great system players. But you don't take the the 1-3 best player in the league off there team and tell me they will easily win 40-45 games in the West. The East maybe, but not the West.

What makes the West so good is that the majority of their teams have that play making peremter player. ie Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Kevin Durrant, Carmelo Anthony, Brandon Roy (used to be), Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Tony Parker and Manu. If you have zero playmakers, it makes the offense stagnant.

your underestimating the Lakers roster. They have enough to make it to the 6-8 seed dude. Even last year, as Kobe struggled horribly in the last 30ish games against any team above .500, the Lakers flourished. The Lakers are not just Kobe like the Cavs were LeBron. Would the Lakers be a threat whatsoever to win a ring? Oh god no. But a team with Gasol, Barnes, Artest, Odom, Fisher, Brown, Bynum, and Blake, can win 45 games, and I think that would be likely actually.
Quite honestly, and I don't mean this to say Gasol is the better outright player, but the Lakers would be just as hurt by losing Gasol as they would Kobe at this point

cheetos185
12-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Gasol is better now than when he was in Memphis, you know that.
But with seeds 6-8 a bit down in the west (meaning we may finallly see a sub 50 win team in the playoffs out west), the Lakers minus Kobe would probably slide right in at that 6-8 spot. Do they advance? Nah. But they make it in the tougher west.

i don't know if gasol has gotten better this year after phil jackson calling him softy

macc
12-27-2010, 04:44 PM
Gasol is better now than when he was in Memphis, you know that.
But with seeds 6-8 a bit down in the west (meaning we may finallly see a sub 50 win team in the playoffs out west), the Lakers minus Kobe would probably slide right in at that 6-8 spot. Do they advance? Nah. But they make it in the tougher west.



That's pretty debatable. It just depends on what classify as "better", because stats don't back that up. Gasol has been a 17-20 ppg scorer 50% + shooter 7+ rebounder his entire career, even going back to his rookie season. Gasol is however avg appx 2 more rebounds per game now then his career avg as well as almost a full assist more per game, but overall there no dramatic differences in what he is in LA compared to what he was in Memphis. Just in LA he gets more exposure than ever.

macc
12-27-2010, 04:47 PM
your underestimating the Lakers roster. They have enough to make it to the 6-8 seed dude. Even last year, as Kobe struggled horribly in the last 30ish games against any team above .500, the Lakers flourished. The Lakers are not just Kobe like the Cavs were LeBron. Would the Lakers be a threat whatsoever to win a ring? Oh god no. But a team with Gasol, Barnes, Artest, Odom, Fisher, Brown, Bynum, and Blake, can win 45 games, and I think that would be likely actually.
Quite honestly, and I don't mean this to say Gasol is the better outright player, but the Lakers would be just as hurt by losing Gasol as they would Kobe at this point

I agree that if the Lakers lost Gasol that would hurt as much as Kobe. This is basically just an opinion thing between us, but as a Magic fan I've seen the difference a peremeter playmaker does to an offense. Your playmaker adds consistancy in offense. Consistancy is something you can't afford to not have out west. Without Kobe and NO playmakers whatsoever, I think they would get eaten up out there.

It's just something we'll agree to disagree on.

Tony_Starks
12-27-2010, 04:48 PM
ah, here it is again. Shaq and Big Z were pathetic last year, and even more so in the playoffs. If you think West is a difference maker, that is on you. The Cavs have 6 guys like West now, and suck.
Losing those three, and getting Sessions, Hollins, and with Hickson getting more looks and Jamison there for a full season, those 2 bums and West's role have been more than replaced.


Im not really sure what you're definition of "pathetic" is but putting up 13 and 5 and a block in 23 minutes with not a lot of shot attempts is far from it. Not to mention going toe to toe with Perkins. I watched every game, Shaq did his thing. Doc Rivers even said Shaq's recent teams haven't done a good enough job of using him to get the other team in foul trouble.

You can downplay him if you insist but I'd take a "pathetic" Shaq over half the centers in the league right now. Most teams would.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 05:04 PM
i don't know if gasol has gotten better this year after phil jackson calling him softy

haha, well, mind tricks from master Jedi.
And yes, he has grown into arguably the best PF in the NBA now

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 05:06 PM
That's pretty debatable. It just depends on what classify as "better", because stats don't back that up. Gasol has been a 17-20 ppg scorer 50% + shooter 7+ rebounder his entire career, even going back to his rookie season. Gasol is however avg appx 2 more rebounds per game now then his career avg as well as almost a full assist more per game, but overall there no dramatic differences in what he is in LA compared to what he was in Memphis. Just in LA he gets more exposure than ever.

its what his opponents do to him now. He is much tougher than he was in Memphis defending the paint.
And his offensive rating has shot up with less usage and his turnover rate has dropped since he left Memphis. So yes, he is much better now.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Im not really sure what you're definition of "pathetic" is but putting up 13 and 5 and a block in 23 minutes with not a lot of shot attempts is far from it. Not to mention going toe to toe with Perkins. I watched every game, Shaq did his thing. Doc Rivers even said Shaq's recent teams haven't done a good enough job of using him to get the other team in foul trouble.

You can downplay him if you insist but I'd take a "pathetic" Shaq over half the centers in the league right now. Most teams would.

Playing Shaq and Big Z was the WORST think that idiot Brown could have done in the playoffs. Gee, lets take away our one advantage, SPEED, with Anderson, Hickson, Moon, etc, and play the two guys that a slow Perkins, and 34 year old, hurt KG, can stay with. I remember thinking that as soon as I saw them come in the game.
"Brown, you are an idiot, and you will be fired after this series"

ManRam
12-27-2010, 05:15 PM
I can't believe people are seriously saying that shaq and Z were big loses. Check their winshares last year; they simply were not assets. They may have accounted for a few wins but nothing more.

No player has ever done more with less. He's still gonna be knocked for not winning with an incredibly terrible cast and made fun of for leaving a franchise no one wanted to go to and that couldn't bring him any help that any player would ned to win...but those two things are realities that no other top 10 player of all time ever had to deal with. That's why I think it's dumb for all these retirees to comment; they never experienced what he did. Hell, two other top 10-12 players ever, that still play, team away from small markets far sooner than lebron did, yet no one cares (shaq and kobe).

Any one trying to discredit lebron is just clouded by emotions.

WeBallin
12-27-2010, 05:15 PM
LBJ was as important to the CAVS as the ball used to play basketball........lol

Tony_Starks
12-27-2010, 05:21 PM
Playing Shaq and Big Z was the WORST think that idiot Brown could have done in the playoffs. Gee, lets take away our one advantage, SPEED, with Anderson, Hickson, Moon, etc, and play the two guys that a slow Perkins, and 34 year old, hurt KG, can stay with. I remember thinking that as soon as I saw them come in the game.
"Brown, you are an idiot, and you will be fired after this series"


We do agree that in the playoffs the game slows down to a half court every possession counts game right? If we don't agree on that no need for me to go further....

Rivera
12-27-2010, 05:22 PM
well at this rate the cavs will have abt 20 wins 25 max....so LBJ meant 35 to 40 wins for the cavs

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 09:06 PM
We do agree that in the playoffs the game slows down to a half court every possession counts game right? If we don't agree on that no need for me to go further....

that makes zero difference at all. Having a frontcourt athletic ability advantage works the same in the half court as it does in the open. When the Cavs, or Brown that is, decided to let Big Z and Shaq play minutes against the aging, or slow C's frontcourt, that was the series. Shoot, LeBron had 27-19-10-3-1 in game 7, but will forever be known as a choker.

Just interesting to continue and read the numerous contradicting statements regarding LeBron. I will say its gratifying knowing I have been calling his cast weak for 3 years while most of you thought he had a championship caliber roster around him. The Cavs are now the least talented team in the NBA outside maybe Sac, who has youngens and cash at least.

Tony_Starks
12-27-2010, 09:48 PM
that makes zero difference at all. Having a frontcourt athletic ability advantage works the same in the half court as it does in the open. When the Cavs, or Brown that is, decided to let Big Z and Shaq play minutes against the aging, or slow C's frontcourt, that was the series. Shoot, LeBron had 27-19-10-3-1 in game 7, but will forever be known as a choker.

Just interesting to continue and read the numerous contradicting statements regarding LeBron. I will say its gratifying knowing I have been calling his cast weak for 3 years while most of you thought he had a championship caliber roster around him. The Cavs are now the least talented team in the NBA outside maybe Sac, who has youngens and cash at least.


Well I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree. Im of the unpopular opinion that his cast has been tailored to Lebron to suit his game and thus when you take out the main ingredient the complimentary pieces don't fit. Its not like they had a systematic offense like the triangle. The offense was literally created by him and the attenion he garnered. Its not easy to adjust your game to the ball being dominated by one guy and then you get the rock with 5 seconds left and are expected to produce.

My main thing has always been the other guys couldn't get their own shot. As long as Lebron was healthy and on his A-game it didn't matter cuz he could set the table but when he got "hurt" and stopped driving to the hole they were exposed. Again just my opinion.

Sactown
12-27-2010, 10:06 PM
that makes zero difference at all. Having a frontcourt athletic ability advantage works the same in the half court as it does in the open. When the Cavs, or Brown that is, decided to let Big Z and Shaq play minutes against the aging, or slow C's frontcourt, that was the series. Shoot, LeBron had 27-19-10-3-1 in game 7, but will forever be known as a choker.

Just interesting to continue and read the numerous contradicting statements regarding LeBron. I will say its gratifying knowing I have been calling his cast weak for 3 years while most of you thought he had a championship caliber roster around him. The Cavs are now the least talented team in the NBA outside maybe Sac, who has youngens and cash at least.

WOW... Name one player who is more talented then Tyreke on the Cavs?

Hawkeye15
12-27-2010, 11:39 PM
WOW... Name one player who is more talented then Tyreke on the Cavs?

I credited the youngens. I was speaking of this season, today. Of course Sac has more talent in their youth, and salary (both of which I listed), than Cleveland. I simply meant compare them man to man this season. And Reke has been injured, so he isn't Reke.

210Don
12-27-2010, 11:46 PM
about 10 wins.

Jaji
12-27-2010, 11:49 PM
Mark Price is the best Cav ever and its not even close.

spartanbear
12-28-2010, 02:57 AM
Pretty important. I cant believe this is really a thread.

This.

OnslaughtXX6
12-28-2010, 03:10 AM
You seriously undervalued the contributions of Shaq, Big Z and Delonte. Seriously. Not saying they would be great if they still had them but they wouldn't be this bad either. Probably .500

ahahahahahahhaahhaha

CHANGO
12-28-2010, 03:54 AM
If you're Batman and your Robin is Mo Williams (or Antawn Jamison). Never think of defeating the villain.

/thread

AIRMAR72
12-28-2010, 04:13 AM
No Laker fan is saying lebron wasn't important cuz he was...but this post is so wrong and u totally disrespected Kobe you say lebron was better since entering the league now that's laughable half of the people here still think Kobe is the best including me... And really the lakers a playoff team??? No way dude the way their playing hells no they would not be a playoff team they'd be lucky to win 40 games... Yes lebron was really important to the cavs but Kobe is just as important to the lakers... He is basically the only one who tries and gives a **** even when nothing is going the lakers way... Look the lakers take what their leader does and gives them and Kobe sets up everything for them kobes mentality is something very few have ever had only players I can think of that have his killer mentality are mj magic bird and that's about it...the lakers would fold without Kobe without him ur left with gasol and he soft(the very best softy in the league) but the lakers would totally become the softest team in the league cuz as the leader goes so does the team... Yes lebron was hugely important to them big time but don't diminish what kobe has done and what he stands for in the NBA! Your post was so immature hmmm no wonder it's just as immature as ur boy in the sig Demarcus cousins!

COMMON MAN!! I wish you GUYS stop saying kobe have this killer mentality(why is it other stars always out play him in statement games for last 15yrs) he does not possess those genes he just trying to be like MIKE, just too many episode of come fly with me saturated in him and he never delivers when it counts put brandon roy or russel westbrook on the lakers and they still make da finals put CP3 OR rondo along with brown at SG and lakers still make da finals you put wade or bron and easily the lakers are A dynasty, its not all about style which is kobe, its about substance when your mates need you to make critical meaningful shots when it matters.. stopping the opposition best player on defense.. making your teammates better.. leading by example... kobe does none of that da guy is FAKE!!!

OnslaughtXX6
12-28-2010, 04:22 AM
I would have loved to seen Kobe on the Cavs last year instead of LeBron. I wonder if his "killer instinct" would have lead the Cavs past the first round.

Blazers#1Fan
12-28-2010, 04:58 AM
I would have loved to seen Kobe on the Cavs last year instead of LeBron. I wonder if his "killer instinct" would have lead the Cavs past the first round.

yeah switch those 2 and you got lebron on the lakers winning championships for years! put kobe on the cavs hahahahaa he would take his talents to south beach hahahaha


THIS GUY ONSLAUGHT IS THE ONLY TRUE HEAT FAN ON THE SITE HE WAS A FAN LAST YEAR A TRUE FAN NOT A BANDWAGON FAN! HE WAS ROOTING FOR THEM WHEN THEY HAD JUST WADE AND HASLEM!

THEN HEAT GET LEBON THEN CAVS HAVE ZERO FANS ON HERE WHEN THERE WERE A MILLION AND NOW THERE HEAT FANS SMH :facepalm: ONSLAUGHT DESERVES A GREAT TEAM LIKE HE HAS! ALL YOU BANDWAGON FANS EVERYBODY SEE'S THRU YOU! YOUR THE ONES WITH THE SIGS OF THE HEAT AND THE YOU MAD CRAP! ONSLAUGHT IS A TRUE GREAT FAN AND I GIVE HIM A ROUND OF APPLAUSE :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Hawkeye15
12-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Well I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree. Im of the unpopular opinion that his cast has been tailored to Lebron to suit his game and thus when you take out the main ingredient the complimentary pieces don't fit. Its not like they had a systematic offense like the triangle. The offense was literally created by him and the attenion he garnered. Its not easy to adjust your game to the ball being dominated by one guy and then you get the rock with 5 seconds left and are expected to produce.

My main thing has always been the other guys couldn't get their own shot. As long as Lebron was healthy and on his A-game it didn't matter cuz he could set the table but when he got "hurt" and stopped driving to the hole they were exposed. Again just my opinion.

ding ding ding. LeBron had to do literally everything for that team, something no other elite team's superstar was ever asked to do. Kobe goes 5-19 with 2 boards and 4 turnovers? No worries, Lakers win by 14 anyways. LeBron couldn't get away with that at any point in the regular season or playoffs and have his team win with regularity.
And as it continues to be put in everyone's face, we are seeing the talent level LeBron had to work with, regardless of how or why you think it was brought in, compared to the other "elite" teams.

Anyone who thought Cleveland could win a ring the last 3 years was living a pipe dream. I will admit, even I probably said if LeBron can play like superman, maybe, but nobody can be expected to play at a 30-8-8 pace with no mistakes over an entire playoff run. And when your crappy role players decide to extend the definition of crappy into new territory, even a 27-19-10-3 game gets you called a choker

SteBO
12-28-2010, 01:26 PM
ding ding ding. LeBron had to do literally everything for that team, something no other elite team's superstar was ever asked to do. Kobe goes 5-19 with 2 boards and 4 turnovers? No worries, Lakers win by 14 anyways. LeBron couldn't get away with that at any point in the regular season or playoffs and have his team win with regularity.
And as it continues to be put in everyone's face, we are seeing the talent level LeBron had to work with, regardless of how or why you think it was brought in, compared to the other "elite" teams.

Anyone who thought Cleveland could win a ring the last 3 years was living a pipe dream. I will admit, even I probably said if LeBron can play like superman, maybe, but nobody can be expected to play at a 30-8-8 pace with no mistakes over an entire playoff run. And when your crappy role players decide to extend the definition of crappy into new territory, even a 27-19-10-3 game gets you called a choker

He had 9 turnovers too, but I can't blame him. His team sucked. Still, a triple-double shouldn't be worthy of being called a choker, bottom line.

kjoke
12-28-2010, 01:29 PM
ding ding ding. LeBron had to do literally everything for that team, something no other elite team's superstar was ever asked to do. Kobe goes 5-19 with 2 boards and 4 turnovers? No worries, Lakers win by 14 anyways. LeBron couldn't get away with that at any point in the regular season or playoffs and have his team win with regularity.
And as it continues to be put in everyone's face, we are seeing the talent level LeBron had to work with, regardless of how or why you think it was brought in, compared to the other "elite" teams.

Anyone who thought Cleveland could win a ring the last 3 years was living a pipe dream. I will admit, even I probably said if LeBron can play like superman, maybe, but nobody can be expected to play at a 30-8-8 pace with no mistakes over an entire playoff run. And when your crappy role players decide to extend the definition of crappy into new territory, even a 27-19-10-3 game gets you called a choker

this, too much was asked for him to be prettty perfect through the entire playoffs, one off night and people start *****in' honestly too much wa asked and im not sure if even the likes of jordan can pull off what people where asking.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2010, 01:29 PM
He had 9 turnovers too, but I can't blame him. His team sucked. Still, a triple-double shouldn't be worthy of being called a choker, bottom line.

LeBron could save a baby, stop nuclear war, chip in 30, and still get hated on. So nothing really surprises me with the fan reaction to him anymore.

drama1386
12-28-2010, 01:53 PM
How important was LeBron, hmm. He was very important ... no ******* ****?

When you lose the most athletically gifted basketball player in the world, who also happens to be the league MVP, perennial all-star, and sure-fire Hall of Famer, your team is going to get freaking worse.

Also, when your team has to turn to Mo Williams as your best player, your team just became the 2007 Milwaukee Bucks.
Maybe it's just that I'm having a bad day, but did anyone think the ****ing Cavs were going to get better with LeBron gone? I mean damn, I can't believe the Cavs have won 7 games already. I seriously thought that they might have a chance of having a New Jersey'09 type season (props to Byron Scott).

Anyways, the answer is 'really important'

/thread

>> Cavs redirect: nbadraft.net

AHHH! please don't remind me...

blastmasta26
12-28-2010, 07:50 PM
People called them the Cleveland LeBrons for a reason.

GST4TE
01-12-2011, 12:54 AM
Is anyone watching this?

What's the record for the lowest number of points scored in a half by a team?

NewYorkJets21
01-12-2011, 12:55 AM
i think its 17

kingbrentg
01-12-2011, 12:56 AM
19 by a couple teams

http://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_points.html

dodie53
01-12-2011, 12:56 AM
17?
aww

ManRam
01-12-2011, 12:58 AM
I'd be surprised if this team wins 5 more games, honestly. They need to blow things up. Send all the vets for any picks or youth they can scrounge up. Make sure you finish with the best odds at the #1 overall pick. There is nothing on this team worth salvaging.

justinnum1
01-12-2011, 12:58 AM
wow

talk about not showing up

Avenged
01-12-2011, 12:59 AM
This Cavs team has a lot of work to do.. and it's going to take them a while to do it. Their starters have made a combining of 4 FG's, and it's in the 3rd quarter. :pity:

HoopsDrive
01-12-2011, 12:59 AM
Watching this right now. It's some ugly **** right there.

ChiTownPacerFan
01-12-2011, 01:00 AM
This might be the worst squad that's ever suited up for an NBA game. Lakers are up 61-25 and really its not even that close. It seriously looks like the Lakers are playing a D-league team.

*Superman*
01-12-2011, 01:00 AM
Sweet Jesus that is sad. They need to have something like they do in HS where the clock keeps running if you are down 30+ points.

Gators123
01-12-2011, 01:02 AM
If you want to watch this epic game ............

http://atdhe.net/index.html

Gators123
01-12-2011, 01:02 AM
70-27 wow

ManRam
01-12-2011, 01:03 AM
All this, and Kobe is only 1-4.

It's kind of sad actually. I feel bad for Cleveland.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-12-2011, 01:03 AM
Lebron screwed them hard.


They need to trade Jamison and Mo Williams for WHATEVER they can get. They need to trade their other big contracts like Varejao for cap relief.

There are a couple of teams capable of giving this team expiring and some picks for good players like Jamison and Williams.

ChiTownPacerFan
01-12-2011, 01:05 AM
Lmao, Byron Scott looks like his wife just left him for his best friend.