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kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 04:14 AM
And why?

Hustlenomics
01-12-2011, 04:16 AM
not Bogut because his defense is HORRIBLE!

Gators123
01-12-2011, 04:19 AM
not Bogut because his defense is HORRIBLE!

:confused: No its not.

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 04:19 AM
So I was having a little discussion in the power rankings thread about who was the 2nd best center and I said Bynum when healthy and some people disagreed so now we can State our opinions as to who the 2nd best center is!

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:22 AM
all the laker fans will vote for bynum which is understandable, all the bulls fans will vote for noah, and all the bulls and laker haters will vote for someone besides those two. honestly, noah has to be the second best, he was killing on the boards and played awesome defense till he went down and was averaging a double double.

CHANGO
01-12-2011, 04:31 AM
Howard
Bogut
Noah
Bynum
Horford

MackShock
01-12-2011, 04:32 AM
whos number one? if its not dwight howard..then howard is number 2.

LakersIn5
01-12-2011, 04:38 AM
2nd best center WHEN HEALTHY?

definitely YAO MING :rolleyes:

Daze9900
01-12-2011, 04:39 AM
I think Howard Is so good that he is number 1 and number 2. Noah and Bynum and everyone else can fight for the 3 spot because they are not that close.

GREATNESS ONE
01-12-2011, 04:43 AM
2nd best center WHEN HEALTHY?

definitely YAO MING :rolleyes:

lmao I agree

Rndy
01-12-2011, 04:47 AM
If Healthy I'd say Yao or Oden. Oden's number when on the floor are pretty insane. If he could play with that type of efficiency and with those rebounding numbers.

Eg714
01-12-2011, 04:50 AM
Bynum and it's not even that close. Plays d and can score. His passing is pretty underrated and He Is agile for his size.

TRF929
01-12-2011, 04:58 AM
Duncan and when fully healthy(without bad knees) he'd be #1, but those days are over so I'll settle with #2 (with bad knees)

Rndy
01-12-2011, 05:01 AM
Bynum and it's not even that close. Plays d and can score. His passing is pretty underrated and He Is agile for his size.

I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

Giraffes Rule
01-12-2011, 05:07 AM
Al Jefferson anyone?

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 05:15 AM
I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

I like bulls fans and all but far superior talent maybe on defense he does but overall ill give the nod to bynum!but yes oden when healthy is a beast oden and bynums potentials aré the biggest of any centers

And yes dwight is the best center as for Yao i didnt put him on the list because i think hes done he will never be what he once was and quite frankly i think he should retire!

Eg714
01-12-2011, 05:16 AM
Were not talking about potentally the 2 best were talking about the 2 best and right now it's bynum

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 05:17 AM
Al jefferson is a forward as well as duncan in my eyes

210Don
01-12-2011, 05:17 AM
Bogut For sure

tdunk21
01-12-2011, 05:18 AM
So I was having a little discussion in the power rankings thread about who was the 2nd best center and I said Bynum when healthy and some people disagreed so now we can State our opinions as to who the 2nd best center is!

i knew u were trying to make a case for bynum when i read the thread title...lol....i have just come across the same thread in just about every forum which is posted by a laker fan....but unfortunately he is not 2ndbest even when healthy.....reason being he is not better defensively.....i would rather take my chances with
1) dwight
2) noah
3) bogut(can create his own shot and can also block shots)

Eg714
01-12-2011, 05:20 AM
Why would u put Bogut ahead of bynum

210Don
01-12-2011, 05:24 AM
Why would u put Bogut ahead of bynum

because hes better.....

Eg714
01-12-2011, 05:26 AM
Noah is better defensively but Bynum is way better offensively. The gap between noah's defense and bynums d is smaller than bynums offense and noah's offense.

jimbobjarree
01-12-2011, 05:37 AM
I'd take Bogut as 2nd, Noah 3rd, Horford 4th. I like Bynum, but I havnt seen him play in so long.

And I like the shout out for my boy Big Al! 17-9 and 2 blocks deserves a mention. He has played the 5 all year long, and the last 3 or so years so I think he should be classed as a 5.

Eg714
01-12-2011, 05:40 AM
I'm not trying to overrate bynum but I think people forget how good he is because he was injured. It would be better if we ask this question in a couple weeks cuz he's only started a few games

Khalifa21
01-12-2011, 07:00 AM
In you can have Bynum up there and say "when healthy" then why not Yao?

Yao is the 2nd best C in the league when healthy.

Minimal
01-12-2011, 07:11 AM
Bogut without a question

ramsizzle
01-12-2011, 07:52 AM
Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Andrew Bogut 2010-11 26 28 1001 17.2 .482 .482 11.2 27.0 18.8 9.1 1.0 6.4 12.3 20.2 99 97 0.1 2.2 2.3 0.111
2 Andrew Bynum 2010-11 23 15 345 21.0 .604 .589 11.8 19.6 15.9 7.1 0.2 5.9 11.8 19.7 119 102 0.9 0.5 1.4 0.195
3 Joakim Noah 2010-11 25 24 883 19.5 .570 .514 13.0 23.6 18.5 11.5 1.6 3.4 14.7 17.7 116 96 1.8 2.0 3.8 0.204

ill take noah....

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 08:06 AM
all the laker fans will vote for bynum which is understandable, all the bulls fans will vote for noah, and all the bulls and laker haters will vote for someone besides those two. honestly, noah has to be the second best, he was killing on the boards and played awesome defense till he went down and was averaging a double double.

Bynum would eat Noah alive:p

I'm really impressed by bynum, he blocks shots and rebounds pretty well and his defense has been amazing especially on Amare 2 days ago.

He's just too tall and too strong

Minimal
01-12-2011, 08:07 AM
But seriously if healthy it goes like that:
1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Oden
4. Bogut
5. Noah

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 08:15 AM
Andrew Bynum


SPLIT G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
As a Starter 8 8 27.6 0.620 0.000 0.636 2.4 5.5 7.9 1.0 0.1 2.5 14.0

tonyd3b54
01-12-2011, 08:17 AM
as far as im concerned yao oden and bynum shouldnt even be in the conversation here... theyre never on the court for an expanded period of time so they dont deserve to be here... i like bogut better, but i think what noah brings to a team is worth more than bogut's advantage in skill and thats defense hustle ad rebounding...

LanceUpperCut
01-12-2011, 09:13 AM
Bogut and it's not even close

Tommyh1331
01-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Noah and a close third Bogut

dunedinjays
01-12-2011, 09:28 AM
andrea bargnani

heatbb
01-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Bogut. Noah close 3rd but his offense is imo only average compared to Bogut. (+ he looks like a freaking neanderthal, lol)

LanceUpperCut
01-12-2011, 09:43 AM
andrea bargnani

Thats the obvious choice. I think the thread is about the 3rd best center after D12 and AB7

JARVIS123
01-12-2011, 10:07 AM
Big Al has an argument to be second best.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 10:16 AM
I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

:clap:

Exactly a healthy Greg Oden will decimate a healthy Bynum.

Cubsfan365
01-12-2011, 10:17 AM
Thats the obvious choice. I think the thread is about the 3rd best center after D12 and AB7
Bargnani doesn't rebound or play defense at all IMO, unless you're being sarcastic.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 10:18 AM
But seriously if healthy it goes like that:
1. Howard
2. Yao
3. Oden
4. Bogut
5. Noah

:clap:

100% agree.

goose15
01-12-2011, 10:20 AM
I think its Bogut

KobeOwnSU
01-12-2011, 10:29 AM
I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

Far superior talent? Are you kidding me? Greg Oden wishes he had the talent that Andrew Bynum has...We all know how good the Lakers are, lets not kid ourselves, but yet they couldnt stop anybody on defense. Insert Bynum, they are 7 - 1 and haven't allowed 100 points yet.

LanceUpperCut
01-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Bargnani doesn't rebound or play defense at all IMO, unless you're being sarcastic.

I was being sarcastic but when your the number one option on the offensive end your D is going to take a toll. Bargs might not be your typical center but that's not his position he was forced there to benefit the team and hasn't cried about it at all. But yes Bogut number 2 all day long and if were doing this when healthy ******** then Oden, Perkins, Yao Ming, Kaman would all be above Noah and Bynum for me.

jp611
01-12-2011, 10:35 AM
lol @ bogut winning the poll

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 10:42 AM
I am in no way surprised to see who started this thread.

Andrew Bogut IS the second best C in the NBA, PERIOD. I Love Joakim and his performances in last year's playoffs (game 2 and game 4) really showed why he belongs in these discussions but overall defensively he is not the same caliber player as Andrew Bogut. Andrew Bogut, Dwight Howard and a healthy Greg Oden are the ONLY three Cs in the league today who are defensive stalwarts and can win your team games just on their defense night in night out. The same effect Howard has on Orlando's D is the same Bogut has on Milwaukee's.

Bogut's #s may not be up there with the other top tier in terms of offensive effeiceny but it should be taken into consideration that he has not played this season 100% he has not been very assertive on the offensive and Skiles isn't running the offense through him as much as he did last season. His defense however :speechless:. That in itself sets him apart from Joakim IMO. I would love however to see Bogut come playoff time to really measure how he steps up his game.

Horford comes in right behind Bogut and Noah. IMO he's a PF playing the C but doing a very good job of holding down that position thus far in his career. After that is where Andrew Bynum comes into the discussion. He has the POTENTIAL to be the second best C in the league because of his offensive capabilities and his solid D aside from everything else but as of this moment in his career he has done NOTHING (averaging 23-12-3 over a 5 game span is no where near enough) over his career to crown him the 2nd best C in the league. If we want to talk about what if's because we all know in every discussion about Bynum there are what ifs we should also bring Yao and Oden into this discussion. Till Bynum PROVES himself he is still another potential star (like the 60+ players in the league who have star "potential") and NOT a star player. YET!!!

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 10:46 AM
lol @ bogut winning the poll

Do you watch basketball?

Do you know Andrew Bogut was the first player in the history of the league to ever finish in the top 2 in the league for both charges drawn per game and blocks per game? Did you know that. That in itself speaks VOLUMES for what he is worth to a team on the defensive end.

If you don't know what you are talking about then :shush:

HeatVsHate
01-12-2011, 11:10 AM
So I was having a little discussion in the power rankings thread about who was the 2nd best center and I said Bynum when healthy and some people disagreed so now we can State our opinions as to who the 2nd best center is!

Yeah I remember you, you are the one who keeps pushing the Bynum is better than bogut, noah others in that thread, even if the others are not agreeing with you. Now as I can see with the way it is tuning out in your polls that its going south with your bynum theory I hope you consider these opinions, since you asked for it.


2nd best center WHEN HEALTHY?

definitely YAO MING :rolleyes:

In you can have Bynum up there and say "when healthy" then why not Yao?

Yao is the 2nd best C in the league when healthy.

Should definitely be included along with Oden, since another unhealthy center is also included in bynum, I wonder what is the agenda?


i knew u were trying to make a case for bynum when i read the thread title...lol....i have just come across the same thread in just about every forum which is posted by a laker fan....but unfortunately he is not 2ndbest even when healthy.....reason being he is not better defensively.....i would rather take my chances with
1) dwight
2) noah
3) bogut(can create his own shot and can also block shots)

Yeah can you believe this lol also by seeing this thread, he still created this thread when he is already fixed with the belief that bynum is the 2nd best center now.

Bynum is a very good center, but not for a 2nd or 3rd spot compared to the other very good centers now, and how can you conveniently not include Yao Ming and Oden in the discussion, when comparing to another injure-prone center in bynum. You can never know when bynum gets another injury (knock on woodl) or Yao's and Oden's recovery--Example: Ud Haslems repoted season ending injury (he can make the playoffs now).

Be at least fare with the polls: Either include yao and oden or exclude all the lnjury prone ones including bynum. But as you can see now (polls),a lot of us does not agree with you.

cheetos185
01-12-2011, 11:13 AM
where is amare he plays center for knicks lol 26ppg 9rebs 2.5ast 2.4blks

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 11:24 AM
where is amare he plays center for knicks lol 26ppg 9rebs 2.5ast 2.4blks

Great point! lol

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 11:25 AM
the center position today is sad. That is pretty much my opinion of it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bynuman01&y1=2011&p2=noahjo01&y2=2011&p3=hilarne01&y3=2011&p4=bogutan01&y4=2011

Its Nene so far this season, simply because he has played the whole year at the highest efficiency with what is left at the position. Bynum when healthy is probably the answer, but he is never healthy for long enough stretches to be considered there.

Again, the center position sucks nowadays.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 11:27 AM
where is amare he plays center for knicks lol 26ppg 9rebs 2.5ast 2.4blks

Actually, there is your answer OP

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 11:34 AM
Wow people dont even have bynum in there top 5 thats just sad lol

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 11:40 AM
Wow people dont even have bynum in there top 5 thats just sad lol

he misses way too many games man. The "if healthy" tag is just that, IF.

todu82
01-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Other-Yao Ming

goeatfish63
01-12-2011, 11:57 AM
i voted bogut but if we count amare as a center then i'll take him as #2 in the league

smith&wesson
01-12-2011, 11:59 AM
bargs.

JasonJohnHorn
01-12-2011, 12:05 PM
I'm scratchign my head here, because it seems to me that the answer is clearly Dwight Howard. Other than Pau Gasol, the best center in the league, I cannot think of a center that is better than Dwight Howard.


Thoughts? ;-)

celtsballa21
01-12-2011, 12:07 PM
Al Jefferson easily. Especially if we are playing this "when healthy" game

faze38
01-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Yao Ming when healthy by far! Dwight and Yao are in a league of their own!

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:25 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM



PF 26% 0 105.5 105.5 .0 15 11 57%
C 51% +66 111.3 107.5 3.7 19 14 57%


over 2/3 of his minutes are played at C. That makes him a center.

DaBUU
01-12-2011, 12:25 PM
Dwight
Noah
Bynum
Horford (If we're considering him a C)
Bogut (nice sound player, but does not make an impression on me)

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Al Jefferson easily. Especially if we are playing this "when healthy" game

Al Jefferson isn't even a top 5 C in the league when did he become #2. Look at what Andrew Bogut has been able to do with a Bucks team with the similar type (maybe even inferior) supporting cast.

I guarantee it that IF Bogut played for the Jazz they'd not just be a playoff contender but a serious title contender. Al Jefferson isn't even a C he doesn't even play C as well as Al Horford he is a PF.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

Indeed

faze38
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
I'm scratchign my head here, because it seems to me that the answer is clearly Dwight Howard. Other than Pau Gasol, the best center in the league, I cannot think of a center that is better than Dwight Howard.


Thoughts? ;-)

Pau Gasol is not a center he is a PF and Amare has to be the best PF in the game right now so he isn't number one at his position and is in no way better then Howard!

faze38
01-12-2011, 12:29 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM



over 2/3 of his minutes are played at C. That makes him a center.

True but he is only playing Center because the Knicks are small and if we are gonna count him as a Center he would be number one this year considering he is at the top in blocks and is the best offensive center by a mile!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 12:31 PM
At the end of this season Bynum will cement his place as a 2nd best center in the league after Dwight.

I think some of you guys haven't seen this years Drew in the action yet and what a difference he makes when being on the floor.

macc
01-12-2011, 12:32 PM
as far as im concerned yao oden and bynum shouldnt even be in the conversation here... theyre never on the court for an expanded period of time so they dont deserve to be here... i like bogut better, but i think what noah brings to a team is worth more than bogut's advantage in skill and thats defense hustle ad rebounding...



Kinda what I was thinking. Bynum would have more of a shot if he could stay on the court for one full season, but he can't. I honestly don't think he ever will. Some people's bodies just aren't built to withstand an NBA season ie Yao Ming.

Jiggie
01-12-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm scratchign my head here, because it seems to me that the answer is clearly Dwight Howard. Other than Pau Gasol, the best center in the league, I cannot think of a center that is better than Dwight Howard.


Thoughts? ;-)

Did you even read the Thread title?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 12:35 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM



over 2/3 of his minutes are played at C. That makes him a center.

He's too soft to play Center, Bynum totally abused him couple days ago.

jtsunami
01-12-2011, 12:40 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM



over 2/3 of his minutes are played at C. That makes him a center.

But Amare has been a PF his whole career. He is playing out of position. It's like Wilson Chandler as a PF. If the Knicks has ANYTHING resembling a C, Amare would be at PF. So taking only this season into context is a little misguided. I think we can all agree Amare is a PF. And I would say the Knicks play 2 guards, 3 forwards, than the traditional 2-2-1. I don't think you HAVE to have a center on the court.

As for the poll, I think Horford is not getting enough love. He is really, really good. The debate looks like Bynum vs. Noah vs. Bogut. I'll look at it from each part of the game: defense, offense, rebounding, passing, and intangibles.

Defense: Bogut>Noah>Bynum (even though Noah has the 3rd lowest d-rating in the NBA)
Offense: Bynum>Bogut>Noah (although Bogut isn't as talented offensively as many of you make him out to be)
Rebounding: Noah>Bogut>Bynum
Passing: Noah>Bynum>Bogut
Intangibles: Noah>Bynum>Bogut

I'd say a slight edge to Noah.

magichatnumber9
01-12-2011, 12:43 PM
How can you mention Noah on a top 5 list when he gets owned by Kevin Garnett. Who is a power forward last time I checked.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Defense: Bogut>Noah>Bynum (even though Noah has the 3.

no way

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:45 PM
True but he is only playing Center because the Knicks are small and if we are gonna count him as a Center he would be number one this year considering he is at the top in blocks and is the best offensive center by a mile!

doesn't matter why he is playing C. If and when NY gets a center, Amare will then be playing PF.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 12:45 PM
Bogut is easily a better defender than both Bynum & Noah, and actually has post moves.

And I think it's overall disrespect to not include Horford.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:46 PM
But Amare has been a PF his whole career. He is playing out of position. It's like Wilson Chandler as a PF. If the Knicks has ANYTHING resembling a C, Amare would be at PF. So taking only this season into context is a little misguided. I think we can all agree Amare is a PF. And I would say the Knicks play 2 guards, 3 forwards, than the traditional 2-2-1. I don't think you HAVE to have a center on the court.

As for the poll, I think Horford is not getting enough love. He is really, really good. The debate looks like Bynum vs. Noah vs. Bogut. I'll look at it from each part of the game: defense, offense, rebounding, passing, and intangibles.

Defense: Bogut>Noah>Bynum (even though Noah has the 3rd lowest d-rating in the NBA)
Offense: Bynum>Bogut>Noah (although Bogut isn't as talented offensively as many of you make him out to be)
Rebounding: Noah>Bogut>Bynum
Passing: Noah>Bynum>Bogut
Intangibles: Noah>Bynum>Bogut

I'd say a slight edge to Noah.

understood. But is just doesn't matter. He is playing C now.
And did you just say Bogut and Noah are better defenders than Bynum? Cmon man. Bynum's paint presence is second to only Dwight on defense.

RocketPower2010
01-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Hello everybody!

Stoudamire is playing center in New York.

Goodbye everybody!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 12:49 PM
Bogut is easily a better defender than both Bynum & Noah, and actually has post moves.

And I think it's overall disrespect to not include Horford.

And that is way he shoots such a low FG%
:rolleyes:

Bynum is easily the best offensive center out of these three and its not even close.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Playing against the Knicks really reminded me of how well Bynum defends Amare.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bynuman01&p2=stoudam01

54% career scorer... not against Bynum. 42% against Bynum, and that's including games where Bynum barely got minutes.

If the league ever needs an "Amar'e stopper", they know who to call.

Got it from the Lakers forum.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 12:53 PM
Bynum's paint presence is second to only Dwight on defense.

Go watch Andrew Bogut on a night to night basis. He is 2nd to none in on ball post defense and weakside shot blocking. I actually think it's a tie between him and Howard, because Howard is more foul prone.

I don't get why so many people underrate him. Even for you advanced stat junkies he runs away with most measures. It confuses me why you guys choose to buy into "advanced stats" only when you feel like it anyway.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 12:55 PM
And that is way he shoots such a low FG%
:rolleyes:

Bynum is easily the best offensive center out of these three and its not even close.

Bynum also plays with Kobe and Pau Gasol. Who is the best player Bogut plays with again?

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:55 PM
Go watch Andrew Bogut on a night to night basis. He is 2nd to none in on ball post defense and weakside shot blocking. I actually think it's a tie between him and Howard, because Howard is more foul prone.

I don't get why so many people underrate him. Even for you advanced stat junkies he runs away with most measures. It confuses me why you guys choose to buy into "advanced stats" only when you feel like it anyway.

for sure Bogut is a very good defender. But you saw last year in the finals, when Bynum is on the floor, the Lakers defense becomes nearly unstoppable.

Advanced stats is a tough way to measure a defender btw. Even if you have access to Synergy, it only paints a small picture.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 12:57 PM
But Amare has been a PF his whole career. He is playing out of position. It's like Wilson Chandler as a PF. If the Knicks has ANYTHING resembling a C, Amare would be at PF. So taking only this season into context is a little misguided. I think we can all agree Amare is a PF. And I would say the Knicks play 2 guards, 3 forwards, than the traditional 2-2-1. I don't think you HAVE to have a center on the court.

As for the poll, I think Horford is not getting enough love. He is really, really good. The debate looks like Bynum vs. Noah vs. Bogut. I'll look at it from each part of the game: defense, offense, rebounding, passing, and intangibles.

Defense: Bogut>Noah>Bynum (even though Noah has the 3rd lowest d-rating in the NBA)
Offense: Bynum>Bogut>Noah (although Bogut isn't as talented offensively as many of you make him out to be)
Rebounding: Noah>Bogut>Bynum
Passing: Noah>Bynum>Bogut
Intangibles: Noah>Bynum>Bogut

I'd say a slight edge to Noah.

I am glad you said that you'd say because in all honesty a very good case could be made that Bogut as a rebounder is on par with Noah (after all he does have a higher TRB% in the games in which they played this season. I'd however agree with you on that one.

Passing? Of all the bigs being debating here Bogut is arguably the best passer of the bunch with the soft hands and extremely good eye for the floor and is excellent at making the outlet pass (something he rarely even gets a chance to showcase).All things that can only be witnessed if you watch him play.

As far as the intangibles I'd also give the edge to Bogut on this he is not only the leader of his team on but also off the court, he's a ruler of the paint and has an extremely high B Ball IQ. Joakim on the other hand may go down as the greatest garbage man to ever play the game. No knock on him however but he may not have the leadership qualities that Bogut does.

jtsunami
01-12-2011, 12:58 PM
understood. But is just doesn't matter. He is playing C now.
And did you just say Bogut and Noah are better defenders than Bynum? Cmon man. Bynum's paint presence is second to only Dwight on defense.

Noah's d-rating is 96.
Bogut's d-rating is 97 and is leading the league in blocks per game.
Bynum's d-rating is 102.

How about you try to make a case for me to change my mind? Because ^that looks pretty convincing to me.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 12:58 PM
for sure Bogut is a very good defender. But you saw last year in the finals, when Bynum is on the floor, the Lakers defense becomes nearly unstoppable.

Advanced stats is a tough way to measure a defender btw. Even if you have access to Synergy, it only paints a small picture.

I also see that Bynum becomes a foul machine whenever he feels like also. He's inconsistent. He will come into the game and basically give two near flagrant fouls then go right back to the bench. It happens pretty often.

On the offensive end as well, and Lakers fans will agree with this... he becomes a black hole when he feels like. Forcing everything and not looking to pass.

Either way, can we all just agree to eliminate Bynum from the discussion? Any "2nd best center in the NBA" is not going to be sitting on the pine in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line if he really was that good. Are people going to tell me next that PJ doesn't know what he's doing and is making the wrong choice?

Bynum doesn't play in the clutch because he's inconsistent and unreliable. If he ever somehow gets his inconsistency in check, and can stay healthy all at the same time, he might jump into this discussion.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 01:00 PM
I also see that Bynum becomes a foul machine whenever he feels like also. He's inconsistent. He will come into the game and basically give two near flagrant fouls then go right back to the bench. It happens pretty often.

I believe they all have basically the same amount of fouls if adjusted to 36 minutes.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 01:01 PM
understood. But is just doesn't matter. He is playing C now.
And did you just say Bogut and Noah are better defenders than Bynum? Cmon man. Bynum's paint presence is second to only Dwight on defense.

Where does a healthy Greg Oden in their because I still think both he and Bogut are ahead of Bynum in that regard.

jtsunami
01-12-2011, 01:02 PM
I am glad you said that you'd say because in all honesty a very good case could be made that Bogut as a rebounder is on par with Noah (after all he does have a higher TRB% in the games in which they played this season. I'd however agree with you on that one.

Passing? Of all the bigs being debating here Bogut is arguably the best passer of the bunch with the soft hands and extremely good eye for the floor and is excellent at making the outlet pass (something he rarely even gets a chance to showcase).All things that can only be witnessed if you watch him play.

As far as the intangibles I'd also give the edge to Bogut on this he is not only the leader of his team on but also off the court, he's a ruler of the paint and has an extremely high B Ball IQ. Joakim on the other hand may go down as the greatest garbage man to ever play the game. No knock on him however but he may not have the leadership qualities that Bogut does.

I'll agree somewhat with that. I admittedly don't know much about Bogut's passing abilities. I just figured he wasn't good without doing research. I just know that Jo is an excellent passer and his passing is a big part of the Bulls offense.

The reason why I gave Noah the edge in intangibles is because he lights a fire with his play and his passion is unmatched. He's the vocal leader on this team.

For me, Jo vs. Bogut is good discussion. I just don't think I could put Bynum over either one. He's a very good player, I just think he's a little overrated by some. He plays next to a very underrated player on defense and with arguably the best player in the NBA the last 5 seasons.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 01:06 PM
I'll agree somewhat with that. I admittedly don't know much about Bogut's passing abilities. I just figured he wasn't good without doing research. I just know that Jo is an excellent passer and his passing is a big part of the Bulls offense.

The reason why I gave Noah the edge in intangibles is because he lights a fire with his play and his passion is unmatched. He's the vocal leader on this team.

For me, Jo vs. Bogut is good discussion. I just don't think I could put Bynum over either one. He's a very good player, I just think he's a little overrated by some. He plays next to a very underrated player on defense and with arguably the best player in the NBA the last 5 seasons.

I can respect this post. Good post 100% agree.

macc
01-12-2011, 01:06 PM
just so everyone knows, Amare does indeed play center this season. Call him a natural PF all you want, he is playing C.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM



over 2/3 of his minutes are played at C. That makes him a center.




I agree. People can view players however they want but the bottom line is the position they play most is what they should be considered as.

People have asked where the great centers have gone....well they haven't gone anywhere, the center position has just evolved over the years. Tim Duncan, Amare, Jefferson, are all great players and are Centers in this league. I don't see the hybrid Center position changing anytime soon.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Real talk though.... Nene is up there, but not Al Horford?

Is the OP smoking something?

JordansBulls
01-12-2011, 01:13 PM
We are seeing how good Bogut really is this year. If anyone on this list it should be Horford. Where is he at?

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 01:13 PM
Real talk though.... Nene is up there, but not Al Horford?

Is the OP smoking something?

His agenda was to make his case for Bynum he really doesn't have an idea what he's talking about because he's blinded by homerism.

nolin
01-12-2011, 01:16 PM
Bogut or Noah. no way in hell is it bynum. and yao should be on the list instead of bynum and nene. Nene and bynum are close though.

ManRam
01-12-2011, 01:18 PM
Assuming we're ignoring a certain center who plays in MSG...

Bogut is the second best. I think Bynum and Noah are both a close third. They are both so different, but both are great at what they do. I'd like to see Bynum stay healthy longer, and when it comes playoff time spend more time on the court than on the bench. I'd like to see more of Noah too. He's young.

I'm leaving Yao and Greg out. If healthy, they would be 2 and 3 in some order.

Nene is definitely the next best option. Very, very underrated. Amazing athlete. He runs the court. He scores very efficiently. Jefferson and my man Al Horford are next. I might usually take Horford over Nene, but right now...I'm on a Nene kick.

dacreator101
01-12-2011, 01:22 PM
nene>noah

beasted86
01-12-2011, 01:30 PM
So if Amare is a Center, why isn't Duncan?

He's easily 2nd best in that regard then, even better than Amare because of his impact in such limited minutes on both ends.

Shonuff
01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I am in no way surprised to see who started this thread.

Andrew Bogut IS the second best C in the NBA, PERIOD. I Love Joakim and his performances in last year's playoffs (game 2 and game 4) really showed why he belongs in these discussions but overall defensively he is not the same caliber player as Andrew Bogut. Andrew Bogut, Dwight Howard and a healthy Greg Oden are the ONLY three Cs in the league today who are defensive stalwarts and can win your team games just on their defense night in night out. The same effect Howard has on Orlando's D is the same Bogut has on Milwaukee's.

Bogut's #s may not be up there with the other top tier in terms of offensive effeiceny but it should be taken into consideration that he has not played this season 100% he has not been very assertive on the offensive and Skiles isn't running the offense through him as much as he did last season. His defense however :speechless:. That in itself sets him apart from Joakim IMO. I would love however to see Bogut come playoff time to really measure how he steps up his game.

Horford comes in right behind Bogut and Noah. IMO he's a PF playing the C but doing a very good job of holding down that position thus far in his career. After that is where Andrew Bynum comes into the discussion. He has the POTENTIAL to be the second best C in the league because of his offensive capabilities and his solid D aside from everything else but as of this moment in his career he has done NOTHING (averaging 23-12-3 over a 5 game span is no where near enough) over his career to crown him the 2nd best C in the league. If we want to talk about what if's because we all know in every discussion about Bynum there are what ifs we should also bring Yao and Oden into this discussion. Till Bynum PROVES himself he is still another potential star (like the 60+ players in the league who have star "potential") and NOT a star player. YET!!!

I have no hate for Bogut, I think he's a great C but you're discounting Noah's D a little. I know you're not hating on him. You did give him props but what most people don't see (and not really their fault) is how Noah plays on help-side D. He makes such an impact in areas that aren't noticed and that is why he might be right up there as the top D C in the East. Thibs loves him for that reason and if anyone is a great judge of this it would be Thibs. BTW, Noah's offense is a bit underrated as well.

My rankings put Noah above Bogut but hey, I'm a little bias.

sargon21
01-12-2011, 01:35 PM
jefferson does not deserved to be mentioned

TexasBoy4Life
01-12-2011, 01:39 PM
So if Amare is a Center, why isn't Duncan?

He's easily 2nd best in that regard then, even better than Amare because of his impact in such limited minutes on both ends.

100% True....And im a Lakers fan 4LIFE and always have been!

My top five (My Opinion)

D12
Timmy
Amare
Yeo
Andrew17
With Noah close behind

LanceUpperCut
01-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Marc Gasol has to be in the conversation. Guy has missed barley any time and is well rounded in every position his boards are down a bit but does have Zack beside him.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Marc Gasol has to be in the conversation. Guy has missed barley any time and is well rounded in every position his boards are down a bit but does have Zack beside him.

That is no excuse whatsoever. If he actually deserves to be called a top 2 C in the NBA he'd get his boards in SPITE of Randolph, eg Noah when Boozer came along and in all likeliness when Noah returns he's its going to be much of the same. That is no excuse and Marc doesn't deserve to be in this conversation. Has top tier potential but still isn't as impactful on the defensive end or the glass to get himself in the top 5.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 02:06 PM
OK I see all the bantering back and forth so i will just make a few points.

1) Of course Bynum shines on the Lakers he is next to KB24, Odom, Artest and Gasol who is also 7 feet. I would like to see him on a team like, i dont know lets say, Phoenix...who has zero inside presence.

2) Does he even start for the Lakers, or is he starting now because of the roster shake up??

3) Bogut is a very skilled big man, but greatest defender...? I dont know about that. Shawn Bradley blocked alot of shots and took charges does that make him a great defender? If he was that spectacular he could easily avg 25and 10 boards for the offensively challenged Bucks. Good player, but not a great player...

4) Noah is solid all around with rebounding, hustle, and defense being his strong skills.

5) Horford shouldnt even be in this poll... I dont care how much the Hawks put him at the C position he cant guard any of the "good" canters in the league. Offensively he is coming into his own under Larry Drew. He can match up with the small teams (which there are alot now) but against i.e. Orlando Jason Collins starts and al goes to the 4 with J-Smoove going to the 3.

6) Al Jefferson has been beasting in his new role and if you remember this guy before the MCL/ACL injury he was an absolute beast.

7) Nene has always been a solid player and good on offense but seriously number 2??? Where has the league gone?

8) Why isnt Robin Lopez on this list?? Sure he cant rebound worth a **** but he is Avg 18+ PPG (seeing alot of double teams) on a talent depleted roster.. Just as good as all those centers on the list..

9) Why isnt Shaq on this list??? I dont care how old he is, he still is a dominant force when he is on the court. he still is AVG 10 pts and 5 Rbs and 1block in 20 min a game...

10) Seriously no Amare...shame...

My list....injured or not and attitudes or not (see Demarcus Cousins)

1) Dwight Howard (would love for him to finally grow offensively a little bit more)

1b or 2) Amare Stoudamire...hands down

3) Yao

4) Oden

5) Shaq

6) Al Jefferson

7) Kendrick Perkins

8) Bynum

9) Brook Lopez

10) Demarcus Cousins (he has been playing great lately on a suck team)

All in All everyone in here is right. The crop of Centers blows these days. Teams are switching to the run n gun type of ball similar to what PHX and GS have been doing for years. The era of the 7 foot 300 lb center appeared to have passed us by. Still, the championship teams have a 7 foot 300 lb on their roster so I will wait and pass judgement until i see a team with lack of size win the championship. Miami had the best shot but now they have Erick Dampier...

Dont knock my list just my opinion. Bynum is a skilled big man and has above average foot speed and post skills but when you come in the league saying "You are like Shaq but can shoot free throws better" you better be ready to back that **** up and quite frankly he hasnt done it yet...

greek miami hea
01-12-2011, 02:10 PM
I think Howard Is so good that he is number 1 and number 2. Noah and Bynum and everyone else can fight for the 3 spot because they are not that close.

this

Sadds The Gr8
01-12-2011, 02:20 PM
wasnt there already a poll for this?

LanceUpperCut
01-12-2011, 02:25 PM
That is no excuse whatsoever. If he actually deserves to be called a top 2 C in the NBA he'd get his boards in SPITE of Randolph, eg Noah when Boozer came along and in all likeliness when Noah returns he's its going to be much of the same. That is no excuse and Marc doesn't deserve to be in this conversation. Has top tier potential but still isn't as impactful on the defensive end or the glass to get himself in the top 5.

Noah averaged 13.2 boards a game without Boozer and with Boozer averaged 8.9 a game. I'm not calling Gasol number 2 but he does have a chance in the right situation.

ttam68
01-12-2011, 02:32 PM
If the OP wants to excuse Bynum for missing 45 games a year:

1. Dwight
2. Yao
3. Oden
4. Bogut
5. Bynum
6. Noah

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Noah averaged 13.2 boards a game without Boozer and with Boozer averaged 8.9 a game. I'm not calling Gasol number 2 but he does have a chance in the right situation.

How many games did they even play together? Noah is going to get his regardless. While still giving you solid D and 10-15 when needed. He's better than this version of Marc Gasol (still has a ton of upside), so is Bynum, Andrew Bogut and Al Horford.

I don't think any situation is going to turn Marc into the #2 C in the league his impact is not as resounding as the players who have already been mentioned in this thread. He has never shown any degree of consistency to merit that notion (even Bynum has). He is a SOLID, versatile C and I'd love him on my team but quite frankly based on what we've seen thus far in all these players respective careers Marc hasn't shown anything more than at peak a fringe all star type player.

In the right situation Horford could become a top PF in the league. In the right situation Bogut and Bynum could become the #1 offensive C in the NBA. So lets not say in the right situation because if you change things around for other players Gasol still won't be the #2. Oh and there is a reason I am yet to mention defense. Noah, Bynum and Bogut are game changers on that end Marc above average. That's as huge a gap as any.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 02:37 PM
Noah's d-rating is 96.
Bogut's d-rating is 97 and is leading the league in blocks per game.
Bynum's d-rating is 102.

How about you try to make a case for me to change my mind? Because ^that looks pretty convincing to me.

Drtg is not a good tool to use man. Its a team oriented stat. If that is what you use to dictate defensive rating, its wrong.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 02:40 PM
Real talk though.... Nene is up there, but not Al Horford?

Is the OP smoking something?

agreed dude. Horford belongs

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 02:44 PM
1) Dwight Howard (would love for him to finally grow offensively a little bit more)

1b or 2) Amare Stoudamire...hands down

3) Yao

4) Oden

5) Shaq

6) Al Jefferson

7) Kendrick Perkins

8) Bynum

9) Brook Lopez

10) Demarcus Cousins (he has been playing great lately on a suck team)


Did you seriously just put Demarcus Cousins at this point in his career ahead of Nene (The quickest most agile C in the league), Al Horford (solid D and having a career year), Andrew Bogut (league leader in blocks), Joakim Noah (before going down he was the best rebounding C in the league).

Not to even mention Roy Hibbert, Marcus Camby, Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler and Marc Gasol.

This list right here shows how little to NO credibility you have as a poster. Shaq really Shaquille O'Neal at this point in his career can't even grab you 10 rebounds or lock down the paint anymore he is strictly a role player who is still very feared and can give you a good game or two every here and there but he certainly isn't anywhere near top 5. Your post may go down as easily the worst of this entire thread.

Chronz
01-12-2011, 02:54 PM
not Bogut because his defense is HORRIBLE!
Let me guess, you KNOW this because you WATCH the games.

kurivaimu
01-12-2011, 02:55 PM
Bogut no doubt:
Because he can contribute on offense
and because he can contribute on defense ( He is the leage leader in blocked shots)

Other centers are too one sided. Noah - defensive etc

Madskillz77
01-12-2011, 02:56 PM
1)Dwight Howard
2)Amare Stoudemire
3)Pau Gasol
4)Al Jefferson
5)Al Hoford
6)Brook Lopez
7)Tim Duncan
8)David


Bogut is mediocre and joakim is not good.
How can you not even mention stoudemire, some could say he is better than howard.

celtsballa21
01-12-2011, 02:58 PM
1)Dwight Howard
2)Amare Stoudemire
3)Pau Gasol
4)Al Jefferson
5)Al Hoford
6)Brook Lopez
7)Tim Duncan
8)David


Bogut is mediocre and joakim is not good.
How can you not even mention stoudemire, some could say he is better than howard.

Because Amare isn't technically a center. He happens to start as a center because of the teams weakness at the position. Amare would be an argument for the best PF.

celtsballa21
01-12-2011, 03:01 PM
If you argue Amare as a center then you might as well argue Lebron as a PG.

Madskillz77
01-12-2011, 03:03 PM
If you argue Amare as a center then you might as well argue Lebron as a PG.


Amare actually plays center for his team and could play center for any team because power forward and center are virtually identical.

ddhulett
01-12-2011, 03:05 PM
Tyson Chandler

Chronz
01-12-2011, 03:06 PM
Bynum, hes the only one whos proven to be able to produce at a star rate, the only thing is hes injured all the time.

Chronz
01-12-2011, 03:09 PM
Amare actually plays center for his team and could play center for any team because power forward and center are virtually identical.

Not at all, the defensive coverage is usually different. Amare is actually a decent defender when hes not the sole bigman on the floor and whenever there is another big on the floor hes definitely not the Center.

I dont buy the talk of listing them at the position they technically play. If your playing out of position, you should not be listed at that position. Just the same I dont care if Duncan is listed as the 4 hes a 5.

jtsunami
01-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Drtg is not a good tool to use man. Its a team oriented stat. If that is what you use to dictate defensive rating, its wrong.

So I'm wrong, but nothing you have said backs up that statement. As far as team defense, the Lakers are one point more than the Bucks. So that accounts for the 5 points in discrepancy? Andrew Bynum isn't even the best post defender on his team. If you factor rebounding into defense, he's even worse.

You may be right about defensive metrics not being entirely accurate, but that's all we got at the moment. And everything I've seen is that Andrew Bynum is merely an above average defensive player. Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said before, if I'm wrong....prove it.

RZZZA
01-12-2011, 03:14 PM
joakim is not good.


spit take. Wait, what?

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
1)Dwight Howard
2)Amare Stoudemire
3)Pau Gasol
4)Al Jefferson
5)Al Hoford
6)Brook Lopez
7)Tim Duncan
8)David


Bogut is mediocre and joakim is not good.
How can you not even mention stoudemire, some could say he is better than howard.
Sorry, you are dumb if you think Al Jefferson is in any way better than Al Horford, and as a matter of fact think Horford, Jefferson, and Lopez are better than Duncan.

Overall your list is really really terrible past #3.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
1)Dwight Howard
2)Amare Stoudemire
3)Pau Gasol
4)Al Jefferson
5)Al Hoford
6)Brook Lopez
7)Tim Duncan
8)David


Bogut is mediocre and joakim is not good.
How can you not even mention stoudemire, some could say he is better than howard.

This list is almost as bad as the other guy's. Easily the two WORST post of this entire thread :facepalm:

You should be the last person calling anyone dumb.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Did you seriously just put Demarcus Cousins at this point in his career ahead of Nene (The quickest most agile C in the league), Al Horford (solid D and having a career year), Andrew Bogut (league leader in blocks), Joakim Noah (before going down he was the best rebounding C in the league).

Not to even mention Roy Hibbert, Marcus Camby, Emeka Okafor, Tyson Chandler and Marc Gasol.

This list right here shows how little to NO credibility you have as a poster. Shaq really Shaquille O'Neal at this point in his career can't even grab you 10 rebounds or lock down the paint anymore he is strictly a role player who is still very feared and can give you a good game or two every here and there but he certainly isn't anywhere near top 5. Your post may go down as easily the worst of this entire thread.

First and foremost I could give 2 ***** less of the CREDIBILITY of stat reading people as yourself. I watch the games. If my "credibility" gets hurt b/c of my opinion then so be it. What is an opinion if I have to say what you want me to say. You want to say Shaq is a role player...Ok then. Is Nene a role player? Is Noah a Role Player? None of these people on these lists are "stars" except for Howard and Amare, which kind of makes them "Role Players" no? Is Noah ever going to score 30 points in a game? Probably if 26 are from offensive board put backs. They each bring their unique skillset to their respective teams which therefore translate into individual success.

Horford is not a 5 see my notes above on him (by the way I am a Hawks fan)
16pts and 10 boards in 35 min is good but not fantasic. He is a good player but should be playing the 4.

Nene the quickest and most agile??? Really... :facepalm: 15 pts and 7.5 boards in 31 minutes....Shaq is AVG 10 point and 5 boards with more blocks in 20 min while being a far more serviceable defensively then f'n Nene.

Bogut 13 pts and 12 boards in 36 min at 2.8 BPG game...wow...one word spectacular...oh thats right he takes charges which is what every coach wants in the league a Center that takes charges (Cousins is putting up 13 and 8 in 26 min) but doesnt block as many shots...

So after careful analysis of your so called "credibility" I have come to the conclusion that you must be an aspiring NBA Analyst for ESPN b/c its obvious you just looking at some stat sheets your intern just handed you. But when you break your stats down, as you people like to do, then your reply to my list doesnt make any sense.


P.S. Noah deserves to be on the list (I somehow forgot him) Roy Hibbert and Marc Gasol maybe... The rest of those clowns you put up make me, and probably the rest of PSD laugh. Okafor? Chandler? Camby? One trick ponies..Defense

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 03:25 PM
all the laker fans will vote for bynum which is understandable, all the bulls fans will vote for noah, and all the bulls and laker haters will vote for someone besides those two. honestly, noah has to be the second best, he was killing on the boards and played awesome defense till he went down and was averaging a double double.

so if you're a fan of one team you "have" to vote for that guy, and if you don't you're just a hater? :cool:

anyway, out of those guys its bynum when he's healthy, followed closely by bogut and nene. i really dont like bynum, but he is big and skilled on the block.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 03:28 PM
Do you watch basketball?

Do you know Andrew Bogut was the first player in the history of the league to ever finish in the top 2 in the league for both charges drawn per game and blocks per game? Did you know that. That in itself speaks VOLUMES for what he is worth to a team on the defensive end.

If you don't know what you are talking about then :shush:

Everyone knows Europeans flop...Name the last player to lead the list not European? Why do you think they changed the "flopping" rules around this year? Is he still leading the league or getting into foul trouble?? If blocks per game was so important then why is no one mentioning Darko Milicic b/c as of now he is leading the league in BPG per 48 minutes?

ddhulett
01-12-2011, 03:30 PM
Based on 2010-2011 Season

Dwight Howard
Amar'e Stoudemire
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Pau Gasol
Joakim Noah
Andrew Bogut
LaMarcus Aldridge
Al Jefferson
Al Horford
Zach Randolph
Tim Duncan
Emeka Okafor
ETC.....we could go on forever with this list.

But most of these guys are not true Centers they are power forwards

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 03:30 PM
So I'm wrong, but nothing you have said backs up that statement. As far as team defense, the Lakers are one point more than the Bucks. So that accounts for the 5 points in discrepancy? Andrew Bynum isn't even the best post defender on his team. If you factor rebounding into defense, he's even worse.

You may be right about defensive metrics not being entirely accurate, but that's all we got at the moment. And everything I've seen is that Andrew Bynum is merely an above average defensive player. Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said before, if I'm wrong....prove it.

you are using statistics which are not correct to use.
Tell ya what, i can't get it at work, my admin blocks the site, but I will look at synergy later and respond. Cool?

Right now, the only ones I can offer you are Defensive Win Shares

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=C&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws

And opponents counterproduction

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIL16.HTM

He is #2 in the NBA in Defensive win shares among centers, and holds his oppoents to a PER of 11.4, which is very, very good, and we have a large sample size on him compared to Bynum for example.

Bogut is also #1 in bpg, and #8 in block rate

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=blk_pct

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:30 PM
so if you're a fan of one team you "have" to vote for that guy, and if you don't you're just a hater? :cool:

anyway, out of those guys its bynum when he's healthy, followed closely by bogut and nene. i really dont like bynum, but he is big and skilled on the block.

Why does "when healthy" Bynum still sit in the 4th quarter?

Seems pretty odd arguably the best coach of all time is sitting the 2nd best Center in the NBA, when the guy is healthy and ready to go.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
So I'm wrong, but nothing you have said backs up that statement. As far as team defense, the Lakers are one point more than the Bucks. So that accounts for the 5 points in discrepancy? Andrew Bynum isn't even the best post defender on his team. If you factor rebounding into defense, he's even worse.

You may be right about defensive metrics not being entirely accurate, but that's all we got at the moment. And everything I've seen is that Andrew Bynum is merely an above average defensive player. Nothing more, nothing less. Like I said before, if I'm wrong....prove it.

:speechless:

while I do believe Bogut is better on the defensive end that Bynum I have to agree with the other guy and say that you are indeed wrong. He is NOT just above average.

All you need to do is look at Laker games when he's healthy and playing well as opposed to when he is not and you'd the difference. His impact defensively is undeniable. IMO its not as great as a healthy Andrew Bogut or a healhty Greg Oden but in all honesty in terms of overall impact defensively.

If you want facts look up LAs point's allowed per game prior to Bynum returning and comparing to their last 14 games or so. They are a much improved defensive team. That however is not solely based on Bynum but he does play the biggest role in that.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:35 PM
:speechless:

while I do believe Bogut is better on the defensive end that Bynum I have to agree with the other guy and say that you are indeed wrong. He is NOT just above average.

All you need to do is look at Laker games when he's healthy and playing well as opposed to when he is not and you'd the difference. His impact defensively is undeniable. IMO its not as great as a healthy Andrew Bogut or a healhty Greg Oden but in all honesty in terms of overall impact defensively.

If you want facts look up LAs point's allowed per game prior to Bynum returning and comparing to their last 14 games or so. They are a much improved defensive team. That however is not solely based on Bynum but he does play the biggest role in that.
How often is he both healthy and playing well?

He's inconsistent and injury prone.

His overall talent and potential is undeniable. But I don't get why people are acting as though he's arrived already.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 03:36 PM
How often is he both healthy and playing well?

He's inconsistent and injury prone.

thats just it. Guys who push Bynum are just never going to win the argument. Bynum isn't healthy for long enough stretches of time. He just gets hurt a lot, no way around it

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 03:40 PM
agreed dude. Horford belongs

Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

Cano4prez
01-12-2011, 03:42 PM
Bogut

Eg714
01-12-2011, 03:43 PM
That's why we should ask this question in a couple months and I bet people have a different opinion

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:43 PM
Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

Serious question....when have you actually started watching basketball?

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 03:44 PM
Why does "when healthy" Bynum still sit in the 4th quarter?

Seems pretty odd arguably the best coach of all time is sitting the 2nd best Center in the NBA, when the guy is healthy and ready to go.

he's coming off of consecutive season-ending knee surgeries. and they have this guy lamar odom, not sure if you've heard of him but he's pretty good too.

bynum didn't play in the 4th against the knicks because he fouled out. besides that, he's still getting healthy. and there's no pressure.

who, in your opinion, is more worthy of this distinction?

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 03:45 PM
Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

Horford has been listed, and playing center his whole career as far as I remember. Josh Smith is their PF. Has been for years.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:46 PM
Everyone knows Europeans flop...Name the last player to lead the list not European? Why do you think they changed the "flopping" rules around this year? Is he still leading the league or getting into foul trouble?? If blocks per game was so important then why is no one mentioning Darko Milicic b/c as of now he is leading the league in BPG per 48 minutes?

WTF are you talking about?

are you slow or something?

I am no time mentioned a European anywhere in my post.

Please leave you have NO idea what you are talking about.

I am not even going to waste any more time on you.

Sadds The Gr8
01-12-2011, 03:47 PM
Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

:confused:

Horford played C his whole career. Josh Smith always played PF.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:47 PM
Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

:confused:

Horford has played C every season since he has entered the league.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:49 PM
How often is he both healthy and playing well?

He's inconsistent and injury prone.

His overall talent and potential is undeniable. But I don't get why people are acting as though he's arrived already.

I stated this in multiple earlier posts. He has NOT arrived if you read my earlier posts you'd see that. But he certainly is MUCH more than an above average defensive player.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 03:49 PM
Yes, Horford has been playing center this year, but he wasn't in the past and Horford has played his whole career as a PF, not a center. So I don't think the OP screwed up by not putting Horford up there cause if you wanna make Horford a center, then you might as well put Duncan up there for all the times he played center.

Horford has been playing Center his whole career, but every year the Hawks desperately try to add size b/c when we go against teams with size Horford gets his *** whooped. See the 4-0 Bashing Orlando gave us and the 4-0 Bashing Cleveland gave us the year before. He is a "4" point blank period. Josh Smith has turned into a nice 3-4 combo foward thats why when we play the "BIG" teams Larry Drew has been starting Jason Collins at the 5

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:52 PM
First and foremost I could give 2 ***** less of the CREDIBILITY of stat reading people as yourself. I watch the games. If my "credibility" gets hurt b/c of my opinion then so be it. What is an opinion if I have to say what you want me to say. You want to say Shaq is a role player...Ok then. Is Nene a role player? Is Noah a Role Player? None of these people on these lists are "stars" except for Howard and Amare, which kind of makes them "Role Players" no? Is Noah ever going to score 30 points in a game? Probably if 26 are from offensive board put backs. They each bring their unique skillset to their respective teams which therefore translate into individual success.

Horford is not a 5 see my notes above on him (by the way I am a Hawks fan)
16pts and 10 boards in 35 min is good but not fantasic. He is a good player but should be playing the 4.

Nene the quickest and most agile??? Really... :facepalm: 15 pts and 7.5 boards in 31 minutes....Shaq is AVG 10 point and 5 boards with more blocks in 20 min while being a far more serviceable defensively then f'n Nene.

Bogut 13 pts and 12 boards in 36 min at 2.8 BPG game...wow...one word spectacular...oh thats right he takes charges which is what every coach wants in the league a Center that takes charges (Cousins is putting up 13 and 8 in 26 min) but doesnt block as many shots...

So after careful analysis of your so called "credibility" I have come to the conclusion that you must be an aspiring NBA Analyst for ESPN b/c its obvious you just looking at some stat sheets your intern just handed you. But when you break your stats down, as you people like to do, then your reply to my list doesnt make any sense.


P.S. Noah deserves to be on the list (I somehow forgot him) Roy Hibbert and Marc Gasol maybe... The rest of those clowns you put up make me, and probably the rest of PSD laugh. Okafor? Chandler? Camby? One trick ponies..Defense

Its clear by this post that you have absoluely NO understanding of the game nor do you even look at the game because this is the most horrible analysis of any kind I have witnessed throughout this entire thread. Go bury yourself child. A shame to all Hawks fans is what you are. :facepalm:

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 03:53 PM
:confused:

Horford played C his whole career. Josh Smith always played PF.

no actually last year Zaza Pachulia was starting at center and horford actually was starting pf and horford split time zaza at center.

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Serious question....when have you actually started watching basketball?

the hawks play in the same division as the heat and you don't remember Zaza Pachulia starting? jesus, did you only start watching basketball when lebron and bosh came to miami? :confused:

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:55 PM
he's coming off of consecutive season-ending knee surgeries. and they have this guy lamar odom, not sure if you've heard of him but he's pretty good too.

bynum didn't play in the 4th against the knicks because he fouled out. besides that, he's still getting healthy. and there's no pressure.

who, in your opinion, is more worthy of this distinction?

No, no... you don't get what I'm asking.

Last year to start the year, before Bynum got injured.... Odom was still closing out many games. Why was that?? I said when healthy, I didn't say "when just coming back from an injury".... and even if I was, if Odom is better and gives the Lakers a better chance to win, that speaks volumes IMO.

As much flack as Joe Johnson gets, I'd easily decide to put him in the game even at 75% healthy to close out and bench either Marvin or Crawford to close the game. Even if Ginobili is coming off an injury I'm either benching Jefferson or Hill in the 4th, simple. There are certain guys who are just that good, and will close even when not fully healthy. Bynum isn't a closer because besides his health he's inconsistent (even more than Odom who is also inconsistent). He's just not as reliable as Odom, and often deviates from his role becoming a foul machine or black hole and making dumb plays in general.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 03:55 PM
WTF are you talking about?

are you slow or something?

I am no time mentioned a European anywhere in my post.

Please leave you have NO idea what you are talking about.

I am not even going to waste any more time on you.

Are you slow or something can you not deduct meaning from something without someone fully explaining it to you?

European = Learned to play ball over seas

Manu Ginobli = Flopper
Luis Scola = Flopper
Vlade Divac = Flopper
Pau Gasol = flopper
Barganini = Flopper
Sasha Vujacic = Flopper
Rudy Fernandez = Flopper
Anderson Varajeo = Flopper

Get the picture or do you need furthur explanation? Leading the league in flops doesnt mean you play good defense... Just means you're an above avergae actor...

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 03:56 PM
no actually last year Zaza Pachulia was starting at center and horford actually was starting pf and horford split time zaza at center.

dude please STOP STOP STOP STOP. You are just reuining any form of reputation you could ever hope of having in this thread.

Zaza started 1 game last season count it 1 game and that was because Horford was being rested what in heaven's name are you talking about?

ttam68
01-12-2011, 03:57 PM
no actually last year Zaza Pachulia was starting at center and horford actually was starting pf and horford split time zaza at center.


the hawks play in the same division as the heat and you don't remember Zaza Pachulia starting? jesus, did you only start watching basketball when lebron and bosh came to miami? :confused:

Zaza started:

0 games in 2010-2011
1 game in 2009-2010
26 games in 2008-2009

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/atl/year/2009/atlanta-hawks

Now you look even worse. Probably should've stopped when 8 consecutive people corrected you.

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 03:59 PM
Zaza started:

0 games in 2010-2011
1 game in 2009-2010
26 games in 2008-2009

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/atl/year/2009/atlanta-hawks

Now you look even worse. Probably should've stopped when 8 consecutive people corrected you.

then what the *** am I looking at? im looking at games played......... god damnit im WRONG!!!!!!

beasted86
01-12-2011, 04:00 PM
the hawks play in the same division as the heat and you don't remember Zaza Pachulia starting? jesus, did you only start watching basketball when lebron and bosh came to miami? :confused:

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm just going to take this as you don't watch the Hawks. Hopefully that doesn't apply to most teams you talk about.

But just to let you know of the last 4 seasons that Al Horford has been with the Hawks, Pachulia started 32 games, and they were all due to J. Smith or Horford being injured. Josh Smith has never been healthy and ready to go, and the coach just decided to start Pachulia over him. The Hawks starting froncourt from since Horford was drafted as a rookie has always been Horford at C, J. Smith at PF. Always...

jmoney85
01-12-2011, 04:00 PM
i cant believe people on this board are really trying to say bynum is better than lopez lol @ that one

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
No, no... you don't get what I'm asking.

Last year to start the year, before Bynum got injured.... Odom was still closing out many games. Why was that?? I said when healthy, I didn't say "when just coming back from an injury".... and even if I was, if Odom is better and gives the Lakers a better chance to win, that speaks volumes IMO.

As much flack as Joe Johnson gets, I'd easily decide to put him in the game even at 75% healthy to close out and bench either Marvin or Crawford to close the game. Even if Ginobili is coming off an injury I'm either benching Jefferson or Hill in the 4th, simple. There are certain guys who are just that good, and will close even when not fully healthy. Bynum isn't a closer because besides his health he's inconsistent (even more than Odom who is also inconsistent). He's just not as reliable as Odom, and often deviates from his role becoming a foul machine or black hole and making dumb plays in general.


okay i gotcha. not sure of the answer to this question, but it's worth mentioning that odom is a much better player than the bolded guys.

if i had to guess, it would have to do with what you said, which is bynum still doesnt play well in the offensive sets in clutch time. odom probably helps move the offense much better with his passing, and an odom/gasol front line is still big enough to handle almost every NBA team.

im not the biggest bynum fan, but i've seen him dominate more than any of the other guys on the list. any way you sort it it's a distant second from dwight, but i don't think i'd want any of these other guys over him (with the exception of bogut i guess)

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm just going to take this as you don't watch the Hawks. Hopefully that doesn't apply to most teams you talk about.

But just to let you know of the last 4 seasons that Al Horford has been with the Hawks, Pachulia started 32 games, and they were all due to J. Smith being injured. Josh Smith has never been healthy and ready to go, and the coach just decided to start Pachulia over him. The Hawks starting froncourt from since Horford was drafted as a rookie has always been Horford at C, J. Smith at PF. Always...

your right, I dont watch the hawks really unless they are playing the bulls or magic really. like i said thought before, I looked at the wrong thing and I WAS WRONG!!!!

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Are you slow or something can you not deduct meaning from something without someone fully explaining it to you?

European = Learned to play ball over seas

Manu Ginobli = Flopper
Luis Scola = Flopper
Vlade Divac = Flopper
Pau Gasol = flopper
Barganini = Flopper
Sasha Vujacic = Flopper
Rudy Fernandez = Flopper
Anderson Varajeo = Flopper

Get the picture or do you need furthur explanation? Leading the league in flops doesnt mean you play good defense... Just means you're an above avergae actor...

So everyone who draws a charge is a flopper. :facepalm:

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=0

How many European's do you see on that list? Better yet how many of the names you mentioned are on that list?

Drawing charges is an effective defensive ploy which takes a great deal of timing and skill (and some acting if done right). There is also an art in knowing whether to attempt to draw a foul or go for the block and Andrew Bogut has mastered that. All the centers in today's game could learn a thing or two from that.

And you must be an EPIC failure in school if you think European means overseas. I am from Trinidad and Tobago which is in the Caribbean I guess I am European as well. Bogut is from a TOTALLY different continent and has NEVER played European ball. :facepalm:

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
then what the *** am I looking at? im looking at games played......... god damnit im WRONG!!!!!!

Feeny u need to get ur glasses checked :p

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Feeny u need to get ur glasses checked :p

I dont wear glasses, but maybe I should start :(

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:07 PM
Its clear by this post that you have absoluely NO understanding of the game nor do you even look at the game because this is the most horrible analysis of any kind I have witnessed throughout this entire thread. Go bury yourself child. A shame to all Hawks fans is what you are. :facepalm:

Blah Blah Blah dude. You sit here and analyze everyones posts and offer your 2 cents about it and I dont see any lists that you have made with any arguments about anything. I understand the game "very" well and coached my H.S team to the State Finals last year? What are your credentials besides watching NBA League Pass?

It is clear you absolutely love Bogut, for some reason. No one said the boy sucked or was a waste of space so calm your testosterone guy. You are calling me a child when you came out with the name calling and "worst post of this thread etc.." Next time, maybe if you dont like an opinion you will just STFU and not comment on it.

I represent my Hawks and my Hawk fans very well thank you. I attend "ALL" of their games regardless of who they are playing and regardless of their record. I do not glorify players (Al Horford) b/c I am a die hard Hawk fan. I give opinions without discrimination based upon what i see.

Thanks and you have a good day

ttam68
01-12-2011, 04:10 PM
i cant believe people on this board are really trying to say bynum is better than lopez lol @ that one

He is, but atleast Lopez suits up

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:11 PM
the bucks are 7 games below 500 I believe and are 3rd place in their division and bogut is the second best center in the NBA? it's not like they don't have talent on that team.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Blah Blah Blah dude. You sit here and analyze everyones posts and offer your 2 cents about it and I dont see any lists that you have made with any arguments about anything. I understand the game "very" well and coached my H.S team to the State Finals last year? What are your credentials besides watching NBA League Pass?

It is clear you absolutely love Bogut, for some reason. No one said the boy sucked or was a waste of space so calm your testosterone guy. You are calling me a child when you came out with the name calling and "worst post of this thread etc.." Next time, maybe if you dont like an opinion you will just STFU and not comment on it.

I represent my Hawks and my Hawk fans very well thank you. I attend "ALL" of their games regardless of who they are playing and regardless of their record. I do not glorify players (Al Horford) b/c I am a die hard Hawk fan. I give opinions without discrimination based upon what i see.

Thanks and you have a good day

Why don't you read through this thread take a look at my posts and learn a thing or two about basketball. I made my list a very long time ago.

You must have some really good players because you could NEVER be a good coach if you don't think blocks aren't worth anything on defense. You must have the next LeBron James playing for you.

D-Leethal
01-12-2011, 04:13 PM
man the Center position is a joke in todays NBA. In the mid-90s Dwight probably wouldn't even be top 5. What happened to the days of Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwan, Shaq, Smits etc etc etc

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 04:14 PM
then what the *** am I looking at? im looking at games played......... god damnit im WRONG!!!!!!

DRB, your an idiot!

j/k homie :)

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:15 PM
the bucks are 7 games below 500 I believe and are 3rd place in their division and bogut is the second best center in the NBA? it's not like they don't have talent on that team.

How many games have Bogut been healthy this season. Now Mr Feeny go do the proper research and look at the Bucks' split with and without Bogut. His teammates have been playing HORRIBLY all season long with or without him. With him however they are a MUCH improved team.

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 04:15 PM
the bucks are 7 games below 500 I believe and are 3rd place in their division and bogut is the second best center in the NBA? it's not like they don't have talent on that team.

bucks have been riddled with injuries.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:18 PM
So everyone who draws a charge is a flopper. :facepalm:

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=0

How many European's do you see in the top 20?

And you must be an EPIC failure in school if you think European means overseas. I am from Trinidad and Tobago which is in the Caribbean I guess I am European as well. Bogut is from a TOTALLY different continent and has NEVER played European ball. :facepalm:

LOL...you serious? I see 8 out of 20? What did that validate? OK Andrew Bogut played high school basketball in Austrailia that doesnt count as playing overseas or learning to play basketball overseas? I think it does... European as in Euro Ball. To my knowledge its the only other league of ball that is relevant besides the NBA and it is what the Olympics are played under...Euroleague Rules. I know where Austraila is but saying he plays ball like an Austrailian wouldnt sink the point in now would it?

Of course not all charges are flops but you are going to sit here and tell me you think Ginolbli draws alot of offensive fouls or does he flop alot?

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:19 PM
bucks have been riddled with injuries.

so have the bulls..... and they aren't 7 games below 500

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 04:22 PM
Blah Blah Blah dude. You sit here and analyze everyones posts and offer your 2 cents about it and I dont see any lists that you have made with any arguments about anything. I understand the game "very" well and coached my H.S team to the State Finals last year? What are your credentials besides watching NBA League Pass?

It is clear you absolutely love Bogut, for some reason. No one said the boy sucked or was a waste of space so calm your testosterone guy. You are calling me a child when you came out with the name calling and "worst post of this thread etc.." Next time, maybe if you dont like an opinion you will just STFU and not comment on it.

I represent my Hawks and my Hawk fans very well thank you. I attend "ALL" of their games regardless of who they are playing and regardless of their record. I do not glorify players (Al Horford) b/c I am a die hard Hawk fan. I give opinions without discrimination based upon what i see.

Thanks and you have a good day

dude, you have been fighting tooth and nail with an opinion that nobody, including NBA GM's, scouts, coach's, or players agrees with.
You will notice this site is not a bunch of fans that sit around the water cooler talking about how awesome their hometown players are. There are some intelligent basketball minds here.
To leave Bogut and Noah out of your top 9 is ridiculous, and does indeed show you are having major trouble grasping the center position in today's NBA, when evaluating it.

Redbull
01-12-2011, 04:23 PM
For me it's Noah. I know most of you will call it homerism but the guy does everything you could possibly ask for, He's a great rebounder and defender, He hustle's on both ends of the floor and he can also score 12-14 PPG without even demanding the ball.

sfattahian
01-12-2011, 04:24 PM
Taking health into account, I'd say Nene. Bynum and Bogut might be better, but over the last season or two, They've missed too much time for injuries. Noah is good, but I'd prefer Nene, because he is more skilled on offense, and Noah shoots like a girl playing netball.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:24 PM
Why don't you read through this thread take a look at my posts and learn a thing or two about basketball. I made my list a very long time ago.

You must have some really good players because you could NEVER be a good coach if you don't think blocks aren't worth anything on defense. You must have the next LeBron James playing for you.

I didnt say that dont mean anything where do you see that at? I did see your "100% agree post" I guess that means its your list. Your arguement is b/c he is the Top Shot Blocker and 2nd Best Charge Drawer in the league makes him # 2.. Josh Smith blocks alot of shots but is a horrible one on one defender. Marcus Camby is a great shot blocker but weak defender. Shawn Bradley probably, statistically speaking, was probably one of the greatest shot blockers of all time. Just because you block shots and take charges does not make you a great defender. I will, however, say that the Points Scored On Him stat is impressive, but to be great you have to be good on both sides of the ball. This thread was for the 2nd best Center and quite frankly due to Boguts apathy on offense I cannot put him up there for number 2.

sfattahian
01-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Also I believe Nene has the best FG% and FT% of the group, and he's no slouch on defense. His only weakness in my opinion is his rebounding, but in general I think he's underrated and underutilized in Denver. His 65% FG would back that up.

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 04:27 PM
so have the bulls..... and they aren't 7 games below 500

come on...two different teams. if rose and noah were out for extended periods together it'd be different. the bucks will get it together.

Giaps
01-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Bogut. Noah is limited offensively and I was tempted to say Bynum, but he's not healthy enough and I think Bogut is better all around anyway.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:30 PM
dude, you have been fighting tooth and nail with an opinion that nobody, including NBA GM's, scouts, coach's, or players agrees with.
You will notice this site is not a bunch of fans that sit around the water cooler talking about how awesome their hometown players are. There are some intelligent basketball minds here.
To leave Bogut and Noah out of your top 9 is ridiculous, and does indeed show you are having major trouble grasping the center position in today's NBA, when evaluating it.

I am not fighting anything. i admitted leaving Noah out was a mistake and Bogut should be on there somewhere. I gave my opinion and someone disagreed with it without giving an opinion on their own. I dont knock people for their opinions and wouldnt waste my time talking someone off of their own.

Yeah I have seen some good opinions on here i will give you that, but I have also seen alot people who "think" they know the game based off the 125 stats that people use to measure people.

While I do think I under-valued Bogut after whats his names argument...so the F what? Its my opinion...

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:32 PM
I didnt say that dont mean anything where do you see that at? I did see your "100% agree post" I guess that means its your list. Your arguement is b/c he is the Top Shot Blocker and 2nd Best Charge Drawer in the league makes him # 2.. Josh Smith blocks alot of shots but is a horrible one on one defender. Marcus Camby is a great shot blocker but weak defender. Shawn Bradley probably, statistically speaking, was probably one of the greatest shot blockers of all time. Just because you block shots and take charges does not make you a great defender. I will, however, say that the Points Scored On Him stat is impressive, but to be great you have to be good on both sides of the ball. This thread was for the 2nd best Center and quite frankly due to Boguts apathy on offense I cannot put him up there for number 2.

Dude aparently you are also a HORRIBLE reader. Did you read my case. My arguement was because he was a good shot blocker and he draws charges? :confused:

You know how to use the internet so I am assuming you can read well enough. Go back READ and UNDERSTAND and then do some research and try to prove me wrong. Please Please Please. Oh and while you are at it look at the Bucks splits on defense when Bogut is in the line-up as compared to when he is NOT.

And bring Smith and Camby into the argument has no case whatsoever. Why you ask? Because Andrew Bogut is one of the best defenders of Cs in the entire NBA.

Read and understand before replying to me again. Because none of your posts are making any sense.

Oh and this right here might be a start to show how much he's worth to his team on defense and not just a shot blocker or someone who is good at drawing charges.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIL16.HTM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=C&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws

Oh and lying doesn't suite anyone on this forum so don't start there were 5 players in the top 20 from Europe NOT 8 and NONE of them were players who you mentioned.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
I am not fighting anything. i admitted leaving Noah out was a mistake and Bogut should be on there somewhere. I gave my opinion and someone disagreed with it without giving an opinion on their own. I dont knock people for their opinions and wouldnt waste my time talking someone off of their own.

Yeah I have seen some good opinions on here i will give you that, but I have also seen alot people who "think" they know the game based off the 125 stats that people use to measure people.

While I do think I under-valued Bogut after whats his names argument...so the F what? Its my opinion...

Opinion means nothing if the FACTS state otherwise. Learn that "coachman"

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
come on...two different teams. if rose and noah were out for extended periods together it'd be different. the bucks will get it together.

noah had been out 3 weeks now? boozer a month before that..... jennings missed 10 and bogut missed 6, besides that, no one else has missed really anytime. I mean I could understand them being at 500 but 7 games below?

beasted86
01-12-2011, 04:34 PM
I didnt say that dont mean anything where do you see that at? I did see your "100% agree post" I guess that means its your list. Your arguement is b/c he is the Top Shot Blocker and 2nd Best Charge Drawer in the league makes him # 2.. Josh Smith blocks alot of shots but is a horrible one on one defender. Marcus Camby is a great shot blocker but weak defender. Shawn Bradley probably, statistically speaking, was probably one of the greatest shot blockers of all time. Just because you block shots and take charges does not make you a great defender. I will, however, say that the Points Scored On Him stat is impressive, but to be great you have to be good on both sides of the ball. This thread was for the 2nd best Center and quite frankly due to Boguts apathy on offense I cannot put him up there for number 2.
Your own opinion seems inconsistent.

Bogut is the 11th leading scorer at Center in the NBA (and that's counting Gasol, Duncan, and Stoudemire as Centers). And all the stats prove Bogut to be a good defender... but he's not top 9?

sfattahian
01-12-2011, 04:37 PM
I didnt say that dont mean anything where do you see that at? I did see your "100% agree post" I guess that means its your list. Your arguement is b/c he is the Top Shot Blocker and 2nd Best Charge Drawer in the league makes him # 2.. Josh Smith blocks alot of shots but is a horrible one on one defender. Marcus Camby is a great shot blocker but weak defender. Shawn Bradley probably, statistically speaking, was probably one of the greatest shot blockers of all time. Just because you block shots and take charges does not make you a great defender. I will, however, say that the Points Scored On Him stat is impressive, but to be great you have to be good on both sides of the ball. This thread was for the 2nd best Center and quite frankly due to Boguts apathy on offense I cannot put him up there for number 2.

I agree with this guy. Blocks and Steals can be misleading stats. Look at Steph Curry, who is top 5 in steals in the NBA and the #1 worst defender in the league. Also guys like Brandon Wright, Anthony Randolph, and many others would probably have high block numbers if they got minutes, but both are terrible defenders, always biting on pump fakes and they get easily out-muscled.

Just because you have high block numbers doesn't make you a good defender, but at the same time, most of the leagues good big-men defenders average at least 1.5 blocks per game. Most of the guys on the leader board for blocks are good if not great defenders, so I kind of agree with both sides of the argument. But no question, the blocked shots (and steals) statistic can be misleading.

I wish there was a stat for "shots altered" because that's more important than shots blocked in my opinion.

Another good one would be points, assists, and fouls allowed on an individual basis.

Given all the advanced metrics in sports (like WHIP AND OPS in baseball) these days, the current statistic scheme in basketball isn't as good as it could be IMO. It's interesting food for thought though...

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 04:39 PM
I am not fighting anything. i admitted leaving Noah out was a mistake and Bogut should be on there somewhere. I gave my opinion and someone disagreed with it without giving an opinion on their own. I dont knock people for their opinions and wouldnt waste my time talking someone off of their own.

Yeah I have seen some good opinions on here i will give you that, but I have also seen alot people who "think" they know the game based off the 125 stats that people use to measure people.

While I do think I under-valued Bogut after whats his names argument...so the F what? Its my opinion...

ok, then lets see your updated top 9 center list, now that you have had 3 pages to think about it.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 04:41 PM
Your own opinion seems inconsistent.

Bogut is the 11th leading scorer at Center in the NBA (and that's counting Gasol, Duncan, and Stoudemire as Centers). And all the stats prove Bogut to be a good defender... but he's not top 9?

His opinion is magically changing because he's now saying and I quote


Bogut should be on there somewhere.

why? :confused:

I thought in his opinion blocks and charges drawn don't mean squat.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 04:42 PM
I agree with this guy. Blocks and Steals can be misleading stats. Look at Steph Curry, who is top 5 in steals in the NBA and the #1 worst defender in the league. Also guys like Brandon Wright, Anthony Randolph, and many others would probably have high block numbers if they got minutes, but both are terrible defenders, always biting on pump fakes and they get easily out-muscled.

Just because you have high block numbers doesn't make you a good defender, but at the same time, most of the leagues good big-men defenders average at least 1.5 blocks per game. Most of the guys on the leader board for blocks are good if not great defenders, so I kind of agree with both sides of the argument. But no question, the blocked shots (and steals) statistic can be misleading.

I wish there was a stat for "shots altered" because that's more important than shots blocked in my opinion.

Another good one would be points, assists, and fouls allowed on an individual basis.

Given all the advanced metrics in sports (like WHIP AND OPS in baseball) these days, the current statistic scheme in basketball isn't as good as it could be IMO. It's interesting food for thought though...


sure they can be. Looking at rates is a better indicator, but even then, you want to look at team paint protection, the player's opponent counter production, their 1-1 advanced statistics (gonna need to look at Synergy for that), how much opponents shoot at the rim, defensive rebound rates (since defense requires taking away possessions, etc).

Nothing can compare to baseball on the advanced statistics, especially the publically released ones.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:46 PM
1) Dwight Howard (would love for him to finally grow offensively a little bit more)

1b or 2) Amare Stoudamire...hands down
3) Yao
4) Oden
5) Noah
6) Bogut
7) Shaq
8) Bynum
9) Brook Lopez
10) Nene
11) Demarcus Cousins (he has been playing great lately on a suck team)

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 04:47 PM
His opinion is magically changing because he's now saying and I quote



why? :confused:

I thought in his opinion blocks and charges drawn don't mean squat.

It doesnt mean squat but as i stated and you left out. His Point Against was impressive and i will give him the benefit of the doubt offensively (because he has shown more in previous years)

NYMetros
01-12-2011, 04:55 PM
Howard
Bogut
Horford
Noah
Bynum

Corey
01-12-2011, 04:56 PM
I think Bogut is the second best center.

Sorry, I don't categorize Amare as a center.

mike_noodles
01-12-2011, 04:58 PM
The 2nd best C in the league is Amare Stoudemire, then Yao injured feet and all. Cause I keep hearing "If Bynum was healthy...". The truth is, if Yao was healthy, he might even be the best C in the league still.

mttwlsn16
01-12-2011, 05:01 PM
DeAndre Jordan

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 05:02 PM
It doesnt mean squat but as i stated and you left out. His Point Against was impressive and i will give him the benefit of the doubt offensively (because he has shown more in previous years)

So then why did Marcus Camby win DPOY in 07.

I'd end my debate with you by asking you 2 question's.

Josh Smith vs Carmelo Anthony, who plays better defense?

Steve Nash vs Stephen Curry, who plays better defense?

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 05:09 PM
So then why did Marcus Camby win DPOY in 07.

I'd end my debate with you by asking you 2 question's.

Josh Smith vs Carmelo Anthony, who plays better defense?

Steve Nash vs Stephen Curry, who plays better defense?

Josh Smith.....Carmelo just doesnt put the effort forth on D unless you piss him off.

The second one I have no idea both are sub-par defenders, and undersized so I if I had to pick one defensively I guess I would have to go with Nash but not by a huge margin.

Nash won MVP one year which was widely criticized due to his lack of defense, but his Assists, Points in the Paint and just stellar offensive play over shadowed the defense.

Camby is a good defender when put at the 4 but at the 5 (due to his lack of size) he gets over powered. Camby and J-Smoove are probably the best "help" defenders in the league.. They do shift well and block shots no doubt but DPOY...IDK about that

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 05:11 PM
1) Dwight Howard (would love for him to finally grow offensively a little bit more)

1b or 2) Amare Stoudamire...hands down
3) Yao
4) Oden
5) Noah
6) Bogut
7) Shaq
8) Bynum
9) Brook Lopez
10) Nene
11) Demarcus Cousins (he has been playing great lately on a suck team)


Yao and Oden don't play. So I will simply assume that means everyone moves up two spots after them, agreed?

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 05:13 PM
Josh Smith.....Carmelo just doesnt put the effort forth on D unless you piss him off.

The second one I have no idea both are sub-par defenders, and undersized so I if I had to pick one defensively I guess I would have to go with Nash but not by a huge margin.

Nash won MVP one year which was widely criticized due to his lack of defense, but his Assists, Points in the Paint and just stellar offensive play over shadowed the defense.

Camby is a good defender when put at the 4 but at the 5 (due to his lack of size) he gets over powered. Camby and J-Smoove are probably the best "help" defenders in the league.. They do shift well and block shots no doubt but DPOY...IDK about that


Nash is arguably the worst defensive PG in the last 10 years, when speaking of contributing players. He is absolutely terrible.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 05:19 PM
Nash is arguably the worst defensive PG in the last 10 years, when speaking of contributing players. He is absolutely terrible.

I would agree with that. I dont think Nowitski is a very good defender either. Yet they both won MVP trophies. All of those Awards are popularity contests, which I am sure we all know. They always go to the player with the most points, or most blocks...etc. Similar to the All Star Game and Pro Bowl in other sports.

People can bash Wade, Lebron, and Kobe all they want to but the nuts and bolts of it is they get it on both sides of the ball. Defense is what will carry MIA b/c Wade and Lebron on the wings are simply ball hawks. If Damps can be servicable enough at the 5 MIA should do well.

abe_froman
01-12-2011, 05:21 PM
amare not an option? he's been good and has played most of his time at center this year

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 05:25 PM
Josh Smith.....Carmelo just doesnt put the effort forth on D unless you piss him off.

The second one I have no idea both are sub-par defenders, and undersized so I if I had to pick one defensively I guess I would have to go with Nash but not by a huge margin.

Nash won MVP one year which was widely criticized due to his lack of defense, but his Assists, Points in the Paint and just stellar offensive play over shadowed the defense.

Camby is a good defender when put at the 4 but at the 5 (due to his lack of size) he gets over powered. Camby and J-Smoove are probably the best "help" defenders in the league.. They do shift well and block shots no doubt but DPOY...IDK about that

Well Camby did win and Smith is a better defensive player because as you said he puts in the EFFORT.

Well don't you think players who are among the league leaders in steals and blocks put in an effort to at least do that (even if in Monta and Curry's case they are sub par defenders). In 2005 Larry Hughes made the All-Defensive first team, prior to that season he was never regarded as anything more than an above average defensive player. Biggest reason why he made the team? He steals.

You still help your team in a major way when you force the oponents to turn over the ball and you affect shots. Like another poster said blocks aren't a great indicator of great D but rather how you affect a player's shot, well guess what players who get plenty blocks typically cause a hell of a lot of bad shots. Same can be said of players who cause deflections (eg Andre Iguodala) in terms of an opposing team's offensive scheme.

Both steals and blocks are very important and are a big part of defense on a whole.

Oh and Curry is a very underrated defender and is a very hard worker on that end so I would have to disagree with you on picking Nash over him.

drama1386
01-12-2011, 05:27 PM
noah had been out 3 weeks now? boozer a month before that..... jennings missed 10 and bogut missed 6, besides that, no one else has missed really anytime. I mean I could understand them being at 500 but 7 games below?

I think you are forgetting that our starting SF, carlos delfino, has been out since november with concussion-like symptoms, gooden is out with his foot injury, bogut has missed some games, jennings is out, maggette missed some games with an ankle injury, CDR is finally healthy after missing almost the first month of the season with an eye injury. the bucks have not been 100% healthy all year, even during training camp. once we have all our players back and they are 100%, watch out!

but to answer the question, bogut is the 2nd best center in the NBA right now.

Dee_Edge
01-12-2011, 05:32 PM
Nene
...shooting 63%, #1 in the NBA
...15 points per game
...7.5 rebounds and w/ a block and a steal a game (plays great D in D)

Bynum - Injury prone (over thinks his offence)
Bogut - Injury prone (doesn't play defence everytime down the court)
Noah - Injury prone (needs to work on his outside shot)

Jewelz0376
01-12-2011, 05:32 PM
It was between Bogut and for Noah for me and I went Bogut...Bogut is better offensively...equal in rebounding...Noah is better on ball but Bogut is a better help defender...I put more value in a bigman being a better help defender than on ball defender... Bogut gets the nod...

btw...Bynum is hurt to so much its hard to say, but if he can finish out the rest of this season healthy in my mind he become the 2nd best C in the league...

Mr.ATLHawks
01-12-2011, 05:34 PM
Well Camby did win and Smith is a better defensive player because as you said he puts in the EFFORT.

Well don't you think players who are among the league leaders in steals and blocks put in an effort to at least do that (even if in Monta and Curry's case they are sub par defenders). In 2005 Larry Hughes made the All-Defensive first team, prior to that season he was never regarded as anything more than an above average defensive player. Biggest reason why he made the team? He steals.

You still help your team in a major way when you force the oponents to turn over the ball and you affect shots. Like another poster said blocks aren't a great indicator of great D but rather how you affect a player's shot, well guess what players who get plenty blocks typically cause a hell of a lot of bad shots. Same can be said of players who cause deflections (eg Andre Iguodala) in terms of an opposing team's offensive scheme.

Both steals and blocks are very important and are a big part of defense on a whole.

Oh and Curry is a very underrated defender and is a very hard worker on that end so I would have to disagree with you on picking Nash over him.

Good points but also a player that goes for alot of steal (Monta Ellis) put his team at risk when he doesnt steal the ball so the ball can bounce either way. This is a reason I dont like statistics. Statistics will say ohh Eliis is avg 2.9 (example) SPG but what is wont say is well ellis went for the ball 15 times and stole it 3 times or something to the effect. I do agree blocks/steals/charges equate to "effort" and defensive ability however players shouldnt be ranked according to these stats. I do however think the ALL-NBA Defensive Team is "usually" pretty accurate. Players like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier don't do much to light up the Stat lines but man oh man how I wouldnt kill for a defender like that on my team.

As far as the Larry Hughes comment, I thought that was the only thing he was ever good for minus that 1 good offensive season he had.

I should have picked Curry do the "D" potential with him being very young and still learning to play D effectively, but witht hat Run N Gun system they have in GS it will be hard for anyone to ever get any Defense acclaim when you are giving up 105+ PPG

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 05:36 PM
I would agree with that. I dont think Nowitski is a very good defender either. Yet they both won MVP trophies. All of those Awards are popularity contests, which I am sure we all know. They always go to the player with the most points, or most blocks...etc. Similar to the All Star Game and Pro Bowl in other sports.

People can bash Wade, Lebron, and Kobe all they want to but the nuts and bolts of it is they get it on both sides of the ball. Defense is what will carry MIA b/c Wade and Lebron on the wings are simply ball hawks. If Damps can be servicable enough at the 5 MIA should do well.

mmm, Nowitzki isn't as bad a defender as many make him out to be.
I agree on the MVP voting. At this point, I have no clue what it stands for (yes everyone, I have heard your input, and it doesn't help me).

roshan3ai
01-12-2011, 05:37 PM
1. Howard
2. Bogut
3. Horford
4. Noah
5. Bynum

*If Al Jeff is considered a C, I think he's ahead of Bynum.

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Bynum.

nickdymez
01-12-2011, 05:53 PM
I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

Good, someone else who doesn't know what there talking about

L@ker4Life
01-12-2011, 06:06 PM
I'd say it's very close for just about all these guys. Bynum isn't any more gifted then the likes of Oden. If anything Oden has far superior talent to Bynum.

WHAT!?!?!?!:confused::mad::rolleyes::facepalm::spe echless:

Oden has far superior talent?? And you saw this in what the 40 games he has played as a pro? He is a beast for sure but his game is the least polished of any big man in the game.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-12-2011, 06:08 PM
i cant believe people on this board are really trying to say bynum is better than lopez lol @ that one

Wut lol:confused:

Lopez sucks, he needs rebounding lessons

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Everyone is aware that Bogut, Noah, and Nene are PF's playing center right? Just checking....

Y2JOrdan
01-12-2011, 06:10 PM
Yao Ming

drama1386
01-12-2011, 06:15 PM
Everyone is aware that Bogut, Noah, and Nene are PF's playing center right? Just checking....

ummm no. bogut is a legit 7ft. center. He only played PF in his rookie year (and that's because our coach was too stupid...), but has been a center ever since. And if he tried to play PF, he couldn't. He's got the skill sets of a very good center (shot blocking, good help defense, rebounding, good back-to-the-basket scorer, etc...) in the NBA.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 06:16 PM
Everyone is aware that Bogut, Noah, and Nene are PF's playing center right? Just checking....

Bogut is a PF playing C? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh: now isn't that a breathe of fresh air.

Bogut is one of the few prototypical old school Cs in today's NBA what are you talking about?

adouble
01-12-2011, 06:17 PM
Everyone is aware that Bogut, Noah, and Nene are PF's playing center right? Just checking....

Um, this couldn't be any further from the truth. Bogut is the definition of a true C. 7'0" 260lbs and the skill set of a C, not a PF. I believe he is the second best C in the NBA right now, if only for his dominant defensive skill, which I think some people still undervalue. If the offense was run thru him, and he was more consistent with his offensive aggressiveness, I don't think it would even be close.

Chacarron
01-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Bynum is the 2nd best Center. He is a great post defender, has the instinct to block shots from slashers, can shoot free throws, can hit the 12-15 footer. He plays on both ends of the floor.

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Um, this couldn't be any further from the truth. Bogut is the definition of a true C. 7'0" 260lbs and the skill set of a C, not a PF. I believe he is the second best C in the NBA right now, if only for his dominant defensive skill, which I think some people still undervalue. If the offense was run thru him, and he was more consistent with his offensive aggressiveness, I don't think it would even be close.


He started his career at the PF position. Thats why I included him.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Um, this couldn't be any further from the truth. Bogut is the definition of a true C. 7'0" 260lbs and the skill set of a C, not a PF. I believe he is the second best C in the NBA right now, if only for his dominant defensive skill, which I think some people still undervalue. If the offense was run thru him, and he was more consistent with his offensive aggressiveness, I don't think it would even be close.

Most sensible post I've seen from a recruit in quite some time. We can look forward to some good posts from this guys in the future.

blueplanet
01-12-2011, 06:25 PM
When HEALTHY? Then Dwight Howard is the 2nd best after Yao Ming. A healthy Yao ming had been the best center after Shaq. Then Bogut. Then Bynum and others.

GeekInThePink
01-12-2011, 06:26 PM
Any love for Andrea Bargnani? I've seen peoples lists and hes definitely a top 5, sure he isn't a great rebounder, but the question isn't who is the second best rebounding center, I'm not saying hes second, just saying he deserved some mention.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 06:31 PM
Everyone is aware that Bogut, Noah, and Nene are PF's playing center right? Just checking....

what are you talking about??? There couldn't be easier definitions of a Center in today's NBA

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 06:37 PM
what are you talking about??? There couldn't be easier definitions of a Center in today's NBA



Noah's a lanky rebounder. No serious post game to speak of aside from the occasional hook. Mostly put backs and hustle points. Not a legit back to the basket big.

Nene literally plays PF and C positions, depending on the matchup. When he's up against the legit big fellas like the Lakers have for example, you can easily see who the real Center is on the floor......

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 06:44 PM
Noah's a lanky rebounder. No serious post game to speak of aside from the occasional hook. Mostly put backs and hustle points. Not a legit back to the basket big.

Nene literally plays PF and C positions, depending on the matchup. When he's up against the legit big fellas like the Lakers have for example, you can easily see who the real Center is on the floor......

Bogut and Nene have played 100% of their minutes at C this season, and for the majority (and I mean a huge portion) of their careers. Noah has played 96% of his minutes at C this season, and around 94% for his career there.

adouble
01-12-2011, 06:45 PM
Most sensible post I've seen from a recruit in quite some time. We can look forward to some good posts from this guys in the future.

Haha. I'm a big follower of sports and do read certain boards, but don't post much. Thanks for appreciating my sensibility though.

As far as the Bargnani discussion, I think most people see him as a PF, like a Dirk. He may be 7ft, but his skill set isn't really that of a C. It's hard because a lot of guys like Al Jeff, Horford, Amare, and Bargs are PF who play C based on the teams roster. Guys like Pau, and Duncan, to me, are C's more than some of these guys.

Missing56&33
01-12-2011, 06:45 PM
Amar'e ............and he is not a center, he is a PF. How good is that?

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 06:46 PM
Haha. I'm a big follower of sports and do read certain boards, but don't post much. Thanks for appreciating my sensibility though.

As far as the Bargnani discussion, I think most people see him as a PF, like a Dirk. He may be 7ft, but his skill set isn't really that of a C. It's hard because a lot of guys like Al Jeff, Horford, Amare, and Bargs are PF who play C based on the teams roster. Guys like Pau, and Duncan, to me, are C's more than some of these guys.

not only is Bargs arguably a PF, but he is a horrific defensive one, so he doesn't garner attention here in the slightest anyways yet.

Chronz
01-12-2011, 06:55 PM
He started his career at the PF position. Thats why I included him.

He started at the 4 because they already had a Center who had recently made the All-Star team.

Frezhnitz
01-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Bynum of curse! Anyne who denys it is blind. Bogut is not even close. Oden my butt, Noah please, yao? no way.

Dwight
Bynum

everryone else is below! Me being bias? No, its just the truth and fact.

abe_froman
01-12-2011, 07:04 PM
Noah's a lanky rebounder. No serious post game to speak of aside from the occasional hook. Mostly put backs and hustle points. Not a legit back to the basket big.

huh??

noah's played like 15 min of pf in his entire career.i dont think you can make any clearer a case for someone being a center than having guy play damn near exclusively center throughout his entire career

Hustlenomics
01-12-2011, 07:10 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/2e15ef8.jpg

John Walls Era
01-12-2011, 07:15 PM
Bynum of curse! Anyne who denys it is blind. Bogut is not even close. Oden my butt, Noah please, yao? no way.

Dwight
Bynum

everryone else is below! Me being bias? No, its just the truth and fact.

:laugh2:

RZZZA
01-12-2011, 07:24 PM
Hustle, where is that sig from?

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 07:30 PM
Why does "when healthy" Bynum still sit in the 4th quarter?

Seems pretty odd arguably the best coach of all time is sitting the 2nd best Center in the NBA, when the guy is healthy and ready to go.

Because he's barely getting back and it also depends on the matchup... He will be playing at the end of games pretty soon though...hey atleast we have a center that when healthy is the 2nd best in the league while ur stuck with anthony(pf) and big z!

Hustlenomics
01-12-2011, 07:31 PM
Hustle, where is that sig from?

nba 2k11 commercial

RZZZA
01-12-2011, 07:32 PM
thats awesome man

RUN DMC 20
01-12-2011, 07:34 PM
number 2 Center will go to Deandre Jordan soon..

beasted86
01-12-2011, 07:34 PM
Because he's barely getting back and it also depends on the matchup... He will be playing at the end of games pretty soon though...hey atleast we have a center that when healthy is the 2nd best in the league while ur stuck with anthony(pf) and big z!

How cute... he brought Joel Anthony and Big Z into the discussion.

Anyway if you read the rest of the thread I was asking why last year coming off the 2009 championship, Bynum was fully healthy in October to start the season '09-10 season. He still sat on the bench in many 4th quarters BEFORE getting injured again. He can't be the 2nd best Center if when fully 100% healthy is not even a closer on his own team.

HoopsDrive
01-12-2011, 07:36 PM
If everyone's healthy? Then it's Dwight Howard.

Without underlying assumptions? I'm going with Andrew Bogut.

nolin
01-12-2011, 07:44 PM
Because he's barely getting back and it also depends on the matchup... He will be playing at the end of games pretty soon though...hey atleast we have a center that when healthy is the 2nd best in the league while ur stuck with anthony(pf) and big z!

lol stop . even when healthy he sits in the 4th. its mainly because hes not as good as pau or LO everyone but you and a couple other fools know this.

MickeyMgl
01-12-2011, 07:52 PM
all the laker fans will vote for bynum which is understandable, all the bulls fans will vote for noah, and all the bulls and laker haters will vote for someone besides those two. honestly, noah has to be the second best, he was killing on the boards and played awesome defense till he went down and was averaging a double double.

I'm a Laker fan. I did not vote for Bynum. So there. :cool:

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 07:56 PM
lol stop . even when healthy he sits in the 4th. its mainly because hes not as good as pau or LO everyone but you and a couple other fools know this.

Or maby cuz he's 23 (this could've been his rookie season had he gone to college) and maybe just maybe Phil doesn't like him playing in the 4th and feels better with LO... Give it time though he'll be there soon and uhh it's cool u guys can have Jefferson amare harford bogut Noah and Oden I'll roll with Bynum... And I didn't put Yao in cuz he's basically done I don't think he will ever be what he was before even when he gets healthy
Bynum by next year will be conisdered the 2nd best center by everyone here if he manages to stay healthy... It's clear people forgot how good he was before his first injury happened

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 07:58 PM
number 2 Center will go to Deandre Jordan soon..

I like ur user name McFadden all the way!
And I like deandre but sorry he will never be a top 5 center I just think he's too limited offensively but if he works at it who knows... Defensively he's a beast though

MickeyMgl
01-12-2011, 07:59 PM
Bynum of curse! Anyne who denys it is blind. Bogut is not even close.

everryone else is below! Me being bias? No, its just the truth and fact.

:laugh:
Believing the correct answer is "Bynum" is not being biased. Proclaiming that it's "not even close" is.

kobe24>lebron23
01-12-2011, 08:00 PM
By the way I consider amare and Jefferson pf!

Raph12
01-12-2011, 08:10 PM
For centers, the key is health... If you had Yao, Bynum, Bogut, Oden, Nene, Al, etc all playing at 100%, no one would question the center position.

Avenged
01-12-2011, 08:26 PM
Andrew Bynum is a GREAT defender and has a really nice post game/footwork. The key with him is health.. When he's healthy, I don't see why he can't be considered top 3. But I guess that goes with a couple of other Centers as well.

I'd go with Dwight, Yao, Bogut???, and Bynum in that order when healthy. Bynum's potential is really high though, if he could only remain on the court, this guy would solidify himself as a top 3 Center without a doubt.

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 09:02 PM
Bogut and Nene have played 100% of their minutes at C this season, and for the majority (and I mean a huge portion) of their careers. Noah has played 96% of his minutes at C this season, and around 94% for his career there.



Well I guess I should clarify that I look at style of play when I judge what a true center as well. While Al Horford is technically a C for example, I can't really call him a legit back to the basket big. Amare is technically a Center now. Same story.

When I think Center Im thinking serious post game, drop steps and pivots, and holding it down in the paint. A lot of these "centers" now days hang out on the perimeter a lot and mostly pick and pop for jumpers and stuff like that. Thats why I give the edge to someone like Bynum who is a true blue legit old school style Center.

But oh course I have a bias to the old school 90's centers so my vision is probably skiewed......

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 09:04 PM
Well I guess I should clarify that I look at style of play when I judge what a true center as well. While Al Horford is technically a C for example, I can't really call him a legit back to the basket big. Amare is technically a Center now. Same story.

When I think Center Im thinking serious post game, drop steps and pivots, and holding it down in the paint. A lot of these "centers" now days hang out on the perimeter a lot and mostly pick and pop for jumpers and stuff like that. Thats why I give the edge to someone like Bynum who is a true blue legit old school style Center.

But oh course I have a bias to the old school 90's centers so my vision is probably skiewed......

Andrew Bogut is about the closest you'd get to the old school Cs in the NBA right now. And just as the PG the C position is evolving I see NO reason why Noah should not be considered a C either.

Swashcuff
01-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Bynum of curse! Anyne who denys it is blind. Bogut is not even close. Oden my butt, Noah please, yao? no way.

Dwight
Bynum

everryone else is below! Me being bias? No, its just the truth and fact.

:facepalm:

O really could you please give us some of these facts because IMO the only fact there is with Andrew is that he isn't able to stay on the court long enough to prove to us that he could really reach his star potential. Same can be said about a host of other Cs quite frankly.

Tony_Starks
01-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Andrew Bogut is about the closest you'd get to the old school Cs in the NBA right now. And just as the PG the C position is evolving I see NO reason why Noah should not be considered a C either.


You may be on to something with Bogut, I don't watch him alot. Might have to check him out. Im a big fan oh Noah but I don't see any reason why over the next few years he shouldn't develope a nice lil post game. Not saying he should become Hakeem or anything but at least a respectable post game would be nice. He should be 20 and 10 guy easy!

crewfan13
01-12-2011, 09:29 PM
I'm a Bucks fan and watch quite a bit of Bogut and he's definately an old school center type of player. I dont' know if I could certainly say he's number 2, but he's pretty close. His offensive game is still not elite, but its decent. However, despite what some people seem to think, his defense is very good. He's leading the league in blocks per game and in the past he's shown a good knack for taking charges. His rebounding numbers aren't elite either, but he blocks out well and keeps his guy off the boards to allow others mainly the Bucks guards to go chase down the rebounds.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 09:40 PM
Well I guess I should clarify that I look at style of play when I judge what a true center as well. While Al Horford is technically a C for example, I can't really call him a legit back to the basket big. Amare is technically a Center now. Same story.

When I think Center Im thinking serious post game, drop steps and pivots, and holding it down in the paint. A lot of these "centers" now days hang out on the perimeter a lot and mostly pick and pop for jumpers and stuff like that. Thats why I give the edge to someone like Bynum who is a true blue legit old school style Center.

But oh course I have a bias to the old school 90's centers so my vision is probably skiewed......

I look at where they play. If you want to judge by style of play, I would guess a third of the league doesn't even play a center.
Trust me, I agree with your last statement. But unfortunately, we are in the age of the new center (which is not a good thing...)