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210Don
01-11-2011, 10:46 PM
ok ive been hearing alot of stuff lately that timmy has had a lot of help and the only reason hes better than kg is that hes had better players around him.
of course timmy has. but he has never had that superstar 2nd player like kobe that shaq had or pippen that jordan had or even pierce or allen or even a wade that shaq had in miami. hes had parker and ginobili those guys are good and manu is clutch but they ARE NOT SUPERSTARS.i dont think people give enough respect to timmy that he makes players better,he makes every player around him step up to another level.
why am i making this thread? simply because i beleive he is in the top 5 players ever to play with a basketball. i mean even this year the spurs have the best record in the nba and still get slighted. i dont think a jordan team a shaq team a kobe team or a magic johnson team with this record would ever get slighted the way timmy does he gets no respect i tell ya.
and please keep it civil dont call me a homer or insult.
discuss

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 10:49 PM
yes he does.

Why?

because he wants to win and is not self obsessed with himself being the Glory guy.

210Don
01-11-2011, 10:49 PM
yes he does.

Why?

because he wants to win and is not self obsessed with himself being the Glory guy.
yup do you think hes a top 5 player ever?

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 10:52 PM
yup do you think hes a top 5 player ever?

He is arguably the top Pf ever so if we go positionaly, yes he is top 5 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Kareem)

If we go regardless of position it woudl be trickier since we woudl ahve to add the likes of Wilt, Mikan, Russell, robertson etc.


I wouldnt say top 5 but woudl definetly not critizise anyone for saying he is top 5.

I just dont believe much into Goats and such.

Ill tell you this tough, i consider him the best player of the last decade, much much better than shaq or Kobe. And im a Laker fan.

Phenomenonsense
01-11-2011, 11:09 PM
He is arguably the top Pf ever so if we go positionaly, yes he is top 5 (Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Kareem)

If we go regardless of position it woudl be trickier since we woudl ahve to add the likes of Wilt, Mikan, Russell, robertson etc.


I wouldnt say top 5 but woudl definetly not critizise anyone for saying he is top 5.

I just dont believe much into Goats and such.

Ill tell you this tough, i consider him the best player of the last decade, much much better than shaq or Kobe. And im a Laker fan.

Oh, it's easy to see that Duncan is probably the best player of his generation. A 20 and ten guy from the GET go. Rookie season until last season he's been roughly a 20/10 guy. And I'm a Piston's fan that wanted him and Ginobli to get sick during the playoffs. lol

knicks4life33
01-11-2011, 11:10 PM
what i like about tim duncan is he is oldschool and is sticking with the spurs and is not like the new generation players and leaves his team and duncan never really needed that media to make him shine or wanted that big endorsements. he just went out and handled business.

*Superman*
01-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Tim Duncan is awesomeness.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:26 PM
absolutely no slight at Duncan, but the Admiral, Parker, and Manu absolutely are stars. Regarding your first line of the post OP, if KG walked into the same situation as Duncan, he would be wearing multiple rings as well. Not sure how you don't see this, outside your SA bias.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:26 PM
Duncan is a top 10 player of all time. But lets not kid ourselves that he didn't walk into the ideal situation.

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:28 PM
Duncan is a top 10 player of all time. But lets not kid ourselves that he didn't walk into the ideal situation.

ok thats nice say that for the 99 team but the 05 team was a completely different team than the 99 team how do u explain that?
the only consistent player from 99 to 05 was timmy NO ONE ELSE.
i doubt if KG was with the spurs he would have 4 rings hed have the 99 and maybe 03 i even doubt KG could dominate shaq the way timmy did in 03

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Duncan is a top 10 player of all time. But lets not kid ourselves that he didn't walk into the ideal situation.

So did Jerry West and it didnt really work.

So did Russell, and Magic Johnson, and kobe bryant.

So what?


And im nto so sure on the Kg thing.

He has a much bigger Ego and duncan being a low profile dude is KEY into creating the chemistry needed to win rings.



as a matter of fct Tim is the ONLY other star player in teh whole league besides Pau taht could Work with someone liek kobe bryant and win rings.
Why? because of his low profile and focus on winning first and caring 0 for personal glory or fame.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:30 PM
ok thats nice say that for the 99 team but the 05 team was a completely different team than the 99 team how do u explain that?
the only consistent player from 99 to 05 was timmy NO ONE ELSE.

if you are serious about Manu, Parker, the supporting roster, and Pops not being the elite of the elite in this argument, than you are painting yourself into a corner dude.
This year alone, the Spurs are the best team in the NBA record wise, and Duncan isn't even their best player in the slightest.

You put Duncan on a crap roster, and he has no rings. Pretty simple.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 11:32 PM
if you are serious about Manu, Parker, the supporting roster, and Pops not being the elite of the elite in this argument, than you are painting yourself into a corner dude.
This year alone, the Spurs are the best team in the NBA record wise, and Duncan isn't even their best player in the slightest.

You put Duncan on a crap roster, and he has no rings. Pretty simple.

As far as i recall therey is only ONE player that have been able to put up the "miracle" and win a ring with a "crappy roster".

That woudl be mr Barry.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 11:35 PM
absolutely no slight at Duncan, but the Admiral, Parker, and Manu absolutely are stars. Regarding your first line of the post OP, if KG walked into the same situation as Duncan, he would be wearing multiple rings as well. Not sure how you don't see this, outside your SA bias.

he walked into a pretty good situation at the time, but if im not mistaken, ginoboli, parker were drfted after duncan. if it wasn't for duncan, you probably would barely know who tony parker is. I'll say one ring was because of the combination of him and robinson, but the other 3, it's all duncan and ill give ginoboli some credit as well cause he was that x factor.

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:38 PM
tbh i dont think many players with the spurs 2003 roster would win a championship timmy single handily carried that team all year a dominated everyone kg could never do that
and you put timmy on that 04 wolves team he prolly wins a chip
that 03 roster was horrific but somehow he got it done.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:39 PM
whats funny is the Spurs were total contenders before David went down, and sat the last 35 games while the Spurs tanked and got Duncan. And you get fans like 210Don who probably were around 6 then, who have absolutely no clue what dynamics and team structure Duncan walked into.
As KG said in the 1998 all star game after he threw an ally-oop to David, and turns to Tim, "You are so fkin lucky to be playing with him!".
Duncan is no doubt in the argument for the best PF of all time. And quite honestly, the greatest players of all time happened to walk into great situations to begin with, hence the winning, and team success needed to be rated top whatever. But to sit here and say Duncan didn't have ELITE, and I MEAN ELITE help, is laughable.
Parker was finals MVP, and a top 7 PG over the past 8 years. Manu has gotten MVP votes for crying out loud, and is notorious for playing huge in big games. You add Elliot, Avery, Ellie, Bowen, I could continue.....
How on earth, when you add the Spurs front office, Greg Poppovich, and all the help over the years Duncan has had, can you seriously give all the credit to one individual?

To the OP. Stop overrating everything about your franchise in certain scenarios.

hotpotato1092
01-11-2011, 11:40 PM
Wait when did anybody say KG was better than Duncan? Maybe right now, but their careers aren't even debatable.

_KB24_
01-11-2011, 11:40 PM
Players don't make others great. They can certainly influence another work ethic and style of play, but I don't buy into that crap.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:40 PM
he walked into a pretty good situation at the time, but if im not mistaken, ginoboli, parker were drfted after duncan. if it wasn't for duncan, you probably would barely know who tony parker is. I'll say one ring was because of the combination of him and robinson, but the other 3, it's all duncan and ill give ginoboli some credit as well cause he was that x factor.

bs. If not for the Spurs front office being able to be patient on foreign players that everyone and their mother knew were good, yet had to wait on, we would still know who they are.
When did I say Duncan wasn't the biggest factor? But am I supposed to sit here and read some dude say Duncan made these guys better????
Manu and Parker were going to be great players regardless of what team they went to.

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:41 PM
whats funny is the Spurs were total contenders before David went down, and sat the last 35 games while the Spurs tanked and got Duncan. And you get fans like 210Don who probably were around 6 then, who have absolutely no clue what dynamics and team structure Duncan walked into.
As KG said in the 1998 all star game after he threw an ally-oop to David, and turns to Tim, "You are so fkin lucky to be playing with him!".
Duncan is no doubt in the argument for the best PF of all time. And quite honestly, the greatest players of all time happened to walk into great situations to begin with, hence the winning, and team success needed to be rated top whatever. But to sit here and say Duncan didn't have ELITE, and I MEAN ELITE help, is laughable.
Parker was finals MVP, and a top 7 PG over the past 8 years. Manu has gotten MVP votes for crying out loud, and is notorious for playing huge in big games. You add Elliot, Avery, Ellie, Bowen, I could continue.....
How on earth, when you add the Spurs front office, Greg Poppovich, and all the help over the years Duncan has had, can you seriously give all the credit to one individual?

To the OP. Stop overrating everything about your franchise in certain scenarios.
you really think KG wins a chip with our 2003 squad??? if you do your kidding yourself.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:42 PM
tbh i dont think many players with the spurs 2003 roster would win a championship timmy single handily carried that team all year a dominated everyone kg could never do that
and you put timmy on that 04 wolves team he prolly wins a chip
that 03 roster was horrific but somehow he got it done.

is that the point of this thread? Duncan versus KG? If so, I will move it to comparisons.
Either stick with the thread title or leave it alone. If you are going to compare the talent level of those two players roster, you will get killed. There is no comparison.

CB29
01-11-2011, 11:42 PM
No one wins rings without help... There just isn't an example of one superstar on a team who carried the team to championship with the rest of team composed of mediocre players.

Tim Duncan is an elite player. He has the skillset of guard. He has arguably the best mid range game of any pf in history. During his prime, he was a presence on the glass. Elite low-post game, elite high post game. Exceptional pick and roll offense and defense. Very good ability to hit crucial shots. Only thing he struggled with was free throws in his career. Don't kid yourself that duncan has had great talent and that's the reason he won. There aren't very many players willing to sacrifice their own games for the benefit of the team. Most superstars wanna be exactly that superstars. Tim Duncan always put the team first and that is a quality we have never seen whether you're talking Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or Lebron James. He did whatever the team needed him to do. That is why he is an exceptional talent, leader and professional. A true winner if i ever saw one.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:43 PM
you really think KG wins a chip with our 2003 squad??? if you do your kidding yourself.

living is speculation is fun, isn't it?

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:44 PM
is that the point of this thread? Duncan versus KG? If so, I will move it to comparisons.
Either stick with the thread title or leave it alone. If you are going to compare the talent level of those two players roster, you will get killed. There is no comparison.

i beleive you mentioned KG first? am i wrong? you made it into that

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 11:45 PM
tbh i dont think many players with the spurs 2003 roster would win a championship timmy single handily carried that team all year a dominated everyone kg could never do that
and you put timmy on that 04 wolves team he prolly wins a chip
that 03 roster was horrific but somehow he got it done.

Dude, I agree with you. I have watched timmy in college and he is just a monster. now duncan walked into a ideal situation his first year, but after that timmy made that team go. I am telling you, no one would of heard of tony parker really if he had played with someone else besides tim duncan. TP had no shot for like 6 years and timmy constantly created that hole for tp and that combined with the fear of him dumping the ball off to duncan, helped make parker known around the NBA. when i think of the players of decade, I think shaq and duncan.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 11:46 PM
bs. If not for the Spurs front office being able to be patient on foreign players that everyone and their mother knew were good, yet had to wait on, we would still know who they are.
When did I say Duncan wasn't the biggest factor? But am I supposed to sit here and read some dude say Duncan made these guys better????
Manu and Parker were going to be great players regardless of what team they went to.

False.

manu on the lakers woudl have been back to Italy after the second season of benchwarming kobe.

parker would have died behind Kidd in New jersey.

And so on.

Not to mention the scenario where they fall in a team whose coach despise foreign players( there is more than one out there) instead of falling in a team with pops that really likes them and know how to use them.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:48 PM
i beleive you mentioned KG first? am i wrong? you made it into that

look at the first sentence of you OP.

who brought it up???

You started the thread with a comparison, and then listed a bunch of comments with no evidence, and pure homer bias. What else do you want me to reply to?

You want everyone to acknowledge that Duncan is a great player? No problem, anyone will say that. You want me to believe he hasn't had unreal help? Um, absolutely not going to agree with you ever. EVER.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 11:48 PM
bs. If not for the Spurs front office being able to be patient on foreign players that everyone and their mother knew were good, yet had to wait on, we would still know who they are.
When did I say Duncan wasn't the biggest factor? But am I supposed to sit here and read some dude say Duncan made these guys better????
Manu and Parker were going to be great players regardless of what team they went to.

come on..... thats why 20 something teams passed on parker in the draft. nobody knew who parker was and parker couldn't shoot for nothing coming into the league or strong enough like most nba point guards were to take contact and score. Duncan made parker and I bet you anything if it was duncan and not kg on that 03-04 minnesota team, minnesota would had beat the lakers that year

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:48 PM
Dude, I agree with you. I have watched timmy in college and he is just a monster. now duncan walked into a ideal situation his first year, but after that timmy made that team go. I am telling you, no one would of heard of tony parker really if he had played with someone else besides tim duncan. TP had no shot for like 6 years and timmy constantly created that hole for tp and that combined with the fear of him dumping the ball off to duncan, helped make parker known around the NBA. when i think of the players of decade, I think shaq and duncan.

exactly if you look at that 03 squad parker wasnt parker back then i mean we played speedy claxton and he play good because of timmy what has he done since? nothing parker was our second best player in 03 and avg 15 lol

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:49 PM
False.

manu on the lakers woudl have been back to Italy after the second season of benchwarming kobe.

parker would have died behind Kidd in New jersey.

And so on.

Not to mention the scenario where they fall in a team whose coach despise foreign players( there is more than one out there) instead of falling in a team with pops that really likes them and know how to use them.

false. Both would have found situations that work. Players like Manu and Parker are going to be great in any league.

CB29
01-11-2011, 11:50 PM
the thread is on tim duncan .Why are you speculating whether manu and tony would work on other teams. It's a completely implausible scenario.

210Don
01-11-2011, 11:51 PM
look at the first sentence of you OP.

who brought it up???

You started the thread with a comparison, and then listed a bunch of comments with no evidence, and pure homer bias. What else do you want me to reply to?

You want everyone to acknowledge that Duncan is a great player? No problem, anyone will say that. You want me to believe he hasn't had unreal help? Um, absolutely not going to agree with you ever. EVER.

did you just fall asleep the whole 2003 season? and yes i mentioned other players because they have all had unreal help as well. but somehow timmy cant even have a good player without being criticized by you. you really just make me shake my head....

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 11:51 PM
false. Both would have found situations that work. Players like Manu and Parker are going to be great in any league.

Only if they got traded ( petrovic case when being traded from blazers to nets)

but sometime the mother****ing gms prefer to keep the player kidnapped.

Btw its fun you talk bout the help duncan had in comparison to Kg but never wanted to aknowledge the abysmall diference of help when comparing dirk and pre lakers- pau.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 11:52 PM
the thread is on tim duncan .Why are you speculating whether manu and tony would work on other teams. It's a completely implausible scenario.

the thread is on tim duncan makes others better, so that is part of the subject that he made one or both of them better. :eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:53 PM
did you just fall asleep the whole 2003 season? and yes i mentioned other players because they have all had unreal help as well. but somehow timmy cant even have a good player without being criticized by you. you really just make me shake my head....

look at the opening sentence of your OP. You mentioned KG right off the bat.

How am I criticizing him? hahahahahah.

I simply said, no, Duncan does not deserve all the credit for the 4 Spurs championships.

And the fact that I make you shake your head doesn't interest me at all. There are 29 other teams in the NBA. Give them a gander.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:54 PM
the thread is on tim duncan makes others better, so that is part of the subject that he made one or both of them better. :eyebrow:

yep, and they make HIM better by being able to create for themselves in the open and in late clock situations. So?

CB29
01-11-2011, 11:54 PM
the thread is on tim duncan makes others better, so that is part of the subject that he made one or both of them better. :eyebrow:

I guess but usually when players have multiple all-star appearances and resumes like tony & manu you can infer that they're pretty decent players especially considering their careers on the international level.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 11:55 PM
come on..... thats why 20 something teams passed on parker in the draft. nobody knew who parker was and parker couldn't shoot for nothing coming into the league or strong enough like most nba point guards were to take contact and score. Duncan made parker and I bet you anything if it was duncan and not kg on that 03-04 minnesota team, minnesota would had beat the lakers that year

And if Parker would have injured his hip to the degree that he had no bearing on the series, you are dead wrong...

NokomisLiving
01-12-2011, 12:18 AM
I feel Hawkeyes pain. Being from Minnesota I've watched KG waste away his best years with really bad talent and wonder what if. Idk who you know that was criticizing Duncan, but all I have ever heard(especially being a KG fan) is how much better Duncan is and how great he is. Even a couple people posting on this thread have said he is probably one of the best PF's to play if not THE best. Don't see a slight in that at all...

P.S. Ginobli, Parker>Sprewell, Cassell

D Roses Bulls
01-12-2011, 12:31 AM
And if Parker would have injured his hip to the degree that he had no bearing on the series, you are dead wrong...

I don't think so. the spurs would of still took the cavs out easily in 2007 and would of still beat the pistons in 2005. sorry, but timmy was a beast and in 2005 had one of the single handily best performances in NBA history. whats your beef with duncan? he is a model player, he actually stayed in SA when he could of just went and played with Hill/McGrady at the time in Orlando, shows respect for the game. so i dont know what your beef is with timmy

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't think so. the spurs would of still took the cavs out easily in 2007 and would of still beat the pistons in 2005. sorry, but timmy was a beast and in 2005 had one of the single handily best performances in NBA history. whats your beef with duncan? he is a model player, he actually stayed in SA when he could of just went and played with Hill/McGrady at the time in Orlando, shows respect for the game. so i dont know what your beef is with timmy

I have no beef with Duncan at all. But when you lose one of your top players to injury in the playoffs, its lights out.
I don't care that you don't agree. But Parker/Manu are absolutely better than Cassell/Spree dude. KG was the best player in the NBA in 03-04'. Led the NBA in total points, rebounds, double doubles, rpg, rebound rate, I could go on, but it would bore you. He had to play PG in that series against the Lakers.

My point is, the OP is trying to diminish the ridiculous amount of help both on the court and in the front office Tim Duncan has had over his career. Pretty much all the top 10 players of all time have been surrounded by great scenarios. This is no different.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-12-2011, 12:55 AM
Duncan has always been better than KG. Maybe for like 1 or 2 seasons, KG was better.

Who said he wasn't.

TRF929
01-12-2011, 01:04 AM
Just putting this out there.

You have to remember Timmy told the Spurs FO that they have to build around him or he was fixing to leave to Orlando to play with Hill. Duncan helped Parker become the player he is today, Manu still would of been a good player with another team but not the player he has been with the Spurs. Timmy is a very mentally strong person and knows his way around anything, compared to KG, I dont think the Spurs would be who they are now with him. It's a whole different mindset, Duncan is too laidback and that fits the city of San Antonio, we don't need to be flashy, in your face, to get attention. KG craves that and he just wouldnt wanna be in the city, it wouldnt fit him like it does Duncan. IMO Duncan does make players better but he's able to do that becuase of the whole organization and city. Even with him playing limited minutes, or when he's not on his game, instead of jacking up 30 shots, like kobe, garnett, ect. to get back into the game, he wants to help his other teammates giving them a shot to play big and make a name for themselves as Manu and eventually Parker did.

Duncan just has a high basketball IQ and knows how to play different with certain situations. IMO Duncan is just smarter than Garnett, they have very similar skills, Garnett being a bit more athletic but smarts will win. Also Duncan went to college as Garnett didnt, so Duncan had college exp. but thats for the people that think playing college ball helps you grow into the NBA.

All in all, Duncan is a top 10 player all time, arguably

And the San Antonio FO is better, they get high Character guys and build them, than "ME" guys that they cant build with.

TRF929
01-12-2011, 01:12 AM
I have no beef with Duncan at all. But when you lose one of your top players to injury in the playoffs, its lights out.
I don't care that you don't agree. But Parker/Manu are absolutely better than Cassell/Spree dude. KG was the best player in the NBA in 03-04'. Led the NBA in total points, rebounds, double doubles, rpg, rebound rate, I could go on, but it would bore you. He had to play PG in that series against the Lakers.

My point is, the OP is trying to diminish the ridiculous amount of help both on the court and in the front office Tim Duncan has had over his career. Pretty much all the top 10 players of all time have been surrounded by great scenarios. This is no different.

It's easier to have higher stats when you only care about yourself though he may of said otherwise. Actions speak louder than words and on the court Garnett showed that. Duncan wanted to share and make his team better, even with doing that he had great avgs.

Character players speak volumes without even speaking much.

NokomisLiving
01-12-2011, 01:46 AM
It's easier to have higher stats when you only care about yourself though he may of said otherwise. Actions speak louder than words and on the court Garnett showed that. Duncan wanted to share and make his team better, even with doing that he had great avgs.

Character players speak volumes without even speaking much.


So Garnett only cared about himself and was a big ball hog? Don't think I agree with that. Garnett dedicated himself to the Timberwolves organization that NEVER gave him anything to work with besides an aging Cassell and Spreewell. He may have questionable antics on the court but he loved playing in Minnesota and is by far the most beloved Basketball player we ever had. Usually when you have no character, inflated ego, and no sense in what a team is you don't captivate people the way he did. Glad he got his ring because he deserved it with all he did here without getting the help like Duncan got. Back to the point of the thread.....

Duncan is absolutely awesome. Does he get slighted? Maybe by a select few but I rarely see that, he usually gets an *** load of recognition. Basketball is a team sport, and while Duncan could have made any team a contender rather than a pretender( See Lebron and Cavs) it also takes a whole team, not just one person, to become a champion and actually win.( Also see Lebron and Cavs) Basicly yes he is awesome, but he has had awesomeness around him as well.

IversonIsKrazy
01-12-2011, 03:17 AM
THe 99 championship, Duncan put up numbers unheard of, with the big help from Robinson. In 03 and 05 tho, that was simply Duncan. 03 Parker wasn't elite yet, altho Manu had that great X-Factor, but Duncan carried Spurs that year. 05 Parker established himself, but Duncan was still carrying a heavyload for the championship. The 07 championship was the full cast tho.

Duncan > KG
simple as that. Duncan is the greatest PF of all-time, and Malone is #2.

bigsams50
01-12-2011, 05:40 AM
It's easier to have higher stats when you only care about yourself though he may of said otherwise. Actions speak louder than words and on the court Garnett showed that. Duncan wanted to share and make his team better, even with doing that he had great avgs.

Character players speak volumes without even speaking much.

You call KG selfish, yet he averaged nearly 2 more assists a game i MInny then Tim.

5ass
01-12-2011, 07:49 AM
tim duncan is not as dumb as he looks

JasonJohnHorn
01-12-2011, 08:28 AM
You got my full approval here.

Duncan and Nash are the two best facilitators of their generation! Magic and Bird did it in the 80's, and Duncan and Nash have been doing it for years.

Perhaps the Spurs just have great scouts, and that is why late picks like Parker and Ginobili have done well, and lets face it Blair only slipped down that late because of his knee problems, but look at the other players Duncan has helped to make solid contributors. Roger Mason was begging to get minutes on a lottery team in Washington, he shows up in SA and all of a sudden he's a starter/rotation player on a title contender! Bruce Bowen? How many teams cut him? He plays alongside Duncan in Pop's rotation, and by the time he retire's he has the longest running games-started streak in the league, has become a defensive master and nails three's like crazy. the Suns drafted Stephen Jackson only to cut him loose, and the guy dangles in the wind for several years unable to make and NBA team, and then all of sudden he's playing like an all-star. And an undrafted player like Gary Neal, and late pick like George Hill. I mean hell, he even makes a ginger like Matt Bonner look great some nights!

I have no doubts that Ginobili would have been a great talent where ever he went, though perhaps not the star he is with Duncan and Pop, and I'm sure Parker would have impressed some with his speed, but the bottom line is, without Duncan encouraging a pass first mentality, and clearing the lanes by drawing double teams, these guys would not be playing at the level they are.

Thumbs up to the poster on this one!

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 09:19 AM
It's easier to have higher stats when you only care about yourself though he may of said otherwise. Actions speak louder than words and on the court Garnett showed that. Duncan wanted to share and make his team better, even with doing that he had great avgs.

Character players speak volumes without even speaking much.

are you joking? KG is one of the most unselfish superstars that has played the game.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 09:58 AM
Duncan is no doubt a top 10 player of all time when said and done, and arguably the best PF ever. Of course he makes other players better. All great players do. But why are some of you think Manu and Parker becoming perennial all stars is on Duncan?
Lets go over the timeline for the youngsters.

In the 1989-90 season, the Spurs acheived the biggest turnaround in wins with a 56 win season, with the arrival of David Robinson. The Spurs went up and down until Bob Hill took over in 1994, when the Spurs won 62 games, and Robinson was named the NBA MVP. After another very successful year near the top of the west, Robinson was hurt in the 96-97' season, and limited to 6 games (however many of us who are old enough to remember that season know Robinson was simply held out the last 30+ games so the Spurs could jockey for draft position). Sean Elliot also missed more than half the season. This led to a perrenial contender getting the #1 pick, where they took Tim Duncan.
Most #1 picks start their careers on a team that is in the rebuilding process. however, young Tim got his start on a championship caliber team missing a piece. He happened to be that piece. Duncan was also a 4 year player in college, so he came in as NBA ready as it gets.
Now, as for KG. He was drafted right out of high school, to a team that had never won more than 21 games, and had zero star power outside of Doug West (how many of you remember that name? My guess is about 5% of you). Over the next number of years, he was given Marbury, who fled due to not being the man on that team, Gugliotta (decent SF), and Terrell Brandon (very good PG whom was good enough for McHale to let Billups walk, only to see Brandon suffer an injury about 1/3 the next season in, that would eventually end his career). The illegal signing of Joe Smith took 4 first round draft picks, thereby robbing the Wolves of any chance to replenish while winning.

Now, as the OP would like to say, or some others, they think Duncan would have led the Wolves to the finals in 03-04'. My question to that is, "Are you insane?". The Wolves lost their primary ballhandler Cassell to a hip injury early in the series, limiting him badly. The Wolves backup, Derrick Martin, is not exactly WCF material. So who had to play PG? You guessed it, KG. Duncan couldn't do that if his life depended on it, so I venture to say the series would have been over much quicker.

Now, when I have to sit here and read that Duncan is just flat out better, I laugh at it. I am not disagreeing that Duncan may have a slight edge, due to team success, but nobody who is a former MVP, multiple time all star, multiple time all NBA, only player with 7 straight seasons with 20-10-5 (surpassing Bird by 2 seasons), 9 seasons of 20-10-4, led the NBA in numerous per game and advances statistical categories, DPOY award, bound to finish top 15 all time in both scoring and rebounding, and top 10 all time is assists for a big, should not be looked at as far inferior to anyone.

Lets look at the help each recieved:

Best players at each position either ever had

PG- Parker/Cassell
SG- Manu/Spree
SF- Elliot?/Wally
C- Robinson/Rasho

lets not even get into the other players, that will make the case for KG look even stronger.

If you want something laughable, ask any player in the NBA who played from 1997-current this question: Who would you rather have had as your GM, RC Buford, or Kevin McHale. You will see knees buckle in laughter amongst players, coach's, and GM's.

Let me restate it again. Tim Duncan is absolutely a top 10 player ever. His robotic consistency is unreal. KG had a higher peak individually, Duncan a longer prime I would admit.

However, to say Duncan makes others better is something that should slap someone with the obvious card. Um, EVERY great player makes others better. And to open the thread with a slap at KG is going to bring things like this up.

Anyone who had the pleasure of watching KG over his entire career knows for a fact that he was never given the help outside one year (and injury killed it all). Shoot, look at the following year, when those two babies Cassell and Spree went into "where is my money?" mode.... The Wolves missed the playoffs depsite KG outplaying everyone in the NBA.

This is my last post in this thread. But please don't act like Duncan would have won a ring with the Wolves. If you want to pull that card, KG would have 4 now as well if he were on the Spurs. Does that sound fair?.....

Drewlius
01-12-2011, 10:49 AM
rofl @ Hawkeye suggesting KG on Duncan's championship teams would instantly equate to the same results. KG is not even in the same realm as Duncan when it comes to teamwork and selflessness. KG was also a young immature(This still holds true imo) kid, whereas Duncan was an established 4 year college graduate, and a mature adult. That's barely even scratching the surface, and leaving out any basketball prowess, as well as Duncan's overwhelmingly higher basketball IQ.

HeatVsHate
01-12-2011, 11:15 AM
Yes he does, simply because he lead by example and is one of the few unselfish superstars you can play with in this league.

Hellcrooner
01-12-2011, 12:11 PM
hawkeye, do you thing Ducan woudl have clashed with Marbury?

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:12 PM
hawkeye, do you thing Ducan woudl have clashed with Marbury?

Marbury clashed with KG's contract. He wanted to be the #1 guy with the big deal, and play outside Minneapolis. Wouldn't have mattered if Jesus was his teammate.
And in reality, why does it matter? Even after Marbury's nice start in the NBA, he showed winning is not his concern.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:14 PM
rofl @ Hawkeye suggesting KG on Duncan's championship teams would instantly equate to the same results. KG is not even in the same realm as Duncan when it comes to teamwork and selflessness. KG was also a young immature(This still holds true imo) kid, whereas Duncan was an established 4 year college graduate, and a mature adult. That's barely even scratching the surface, and leaving out any basketball prowess, as well as Duncan's overwhelmingly higher basketball IQ.

read the previous pages. Posters said Duncan would have led the Wolves over the Lakers. If they are making speculative comments, I am replying with one. And I answered their assumption in my post, glad to see you not only misread my last paragraph, but that is all you got from it. Enjoy the laugh

Hellcrooner
01-12-2011, 12:15 PM
Marbury clashed with KG's contract. He wanted to be the #1 guy with the big deal, and play outside Minneapolis. Wouldn't have mattered if Jesus was his teammate.

You havent answered to my other question tough-.

Why are you using the Team core when comparing Tim and Kg when you have in the past refused to talk bout this same thing when comparing those two "soft" "white" Foreigners.

I mean Kidd/Nash/finley/Jamison/Walker/Stackhouse and so on vs White chocolate, Shane battier, Stromile Swift...Lorenzen wright !!!!!!!!!!

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:18 PM
You havent answered to my other question tough-.

Why are you using the Team core when comparing Tim and Kg when you have in the past refused to talk bout this same thing when comparing those two "soft" "white" Foreigners.

I mean Kidd/Nash/finley/Jamison/Walker/Stackhouse and so on vs White chocolate, Shane battier, Stromile Swift...Lorenzen wright !!!!!!!!!!

who are you talking about exactly?
and I am using rosters because that was brought up in this thread first. I probably didn't use them in the other because I didn't feel the need to include them.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 12:19 PM
if you mean Dirk vs Gasol, we have already discussed this. Dirk's numbers are much better across the line, period. I am not getting into that here dude.

Hellcrooner
01-12-2011, 12:19 PM
who are you talking about exactly?
and I am using rosters because that was brought up in this thread first. I probably didn't use them in the other because I didn't feel the need to include them.

Lol you know who :p

Chronz
01-12-2011, 03:00 PM
Only if they got traded ( petrovic case when being traded from blazers to nets)

but sometime the mother****ing gms prefer to keep the player kidnapped.

Btw its fun you talk bout the help duncan had in comparison to Kg but never wanted to aknowledge the abysmall diference of help when comparing dirk and pre lakers- pau.

The point remains they still had the talent to produce whether or not Duncan was around. Look at Petrovic, he showed a knack for scoring and shooting before being traded, all getting traded did was give him more MPG

thekmp211
01-12-2011, 03:15 PM
rofl @ Hawkeye suggesting KG on Duncan's championship teams would instantly equate to the same results. KG is not even in the same realm as Duncan when it comes to teamwork and selflessness. KG was also a young immature(This still holds true imo) kid, whereas Duncan was an established 4 year college graduate, and a mature adult. That's barely even scratching the surface, and leaving out any basketball prowess, as well as Duncan's overwhelmingly higher basketball IQ.

have you ever watched KG play pre-celtics? do you have any idea what you're talking about?

kg averaged a stupid amount of assists on the timberwolves. his biggest KNOCK in minnesota is that he would still pass to his craptastic teammates in the clutch when everyone just wanted him to take over.

the guy basically admitted he wasted a few seasons of his career because he was too loyal to the minny franchise.

there is just so much ignorance being spewed in this thread i don't even know if it's worth taking the time.

the kg/duncan argument of course hinges on supporting cast. if you don't think duncan's career has benefitted from a great organization, coach, scouting and roster building then you haven't learned a damn thing about basketball since the post-jordan search for The One. it's a god damn team game. who is better? i have my biases so i'll leave it alone, but please don't dismiss the argument and definitely don't assert that KG was a selfish player, ever.

as for duncan, i forgot who made the ridiculous assertion that guys like parker and manu wouldnt be stars without duncan. would we all know their name? well, here on PSD probably. but they wouldn't be champions. they're still GOOD players, any way you slice it.

idk, i can't remember what else is being thrown around here. this one guy gets upset any time a poster points out circumstance when it comes to the spurs. cool it man, no one is knocking ur franchise or it's players. but every success has circumstance.

ttam68
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Threads that start with "ok" and contain no capitalization or punctuation tend to be stellar.

AlexTmz2
01-12-2011, 04:25 PM
is that the point of this thread? Duncan versus KG? If so, I will move it to comparisons.
Either stick with the thread title or leave it alone. If you are going to compare the talent level of those two players roster, you will get killed. There is no comparison.

:ohno:

Hawkeye15
01-12-2011, 04:25 PM
:ohno:

yes?

Atticus Finch
01-12-2011, 05:38 PM
It's crazy to think people have already forgotten how good KG was on the wolves. It's crazier to think Duncan didn't walk into an ideal situation (how many teams that year had 2 HoF 7-footers?) The whole "if Duncan was on the t-wolves they would have beaten LA" is completely exaggerated as well, not to mention completely impossible to prove...but for argument's sake:

Duncan against LA in 03-04 playoffs -
20.7 PPG
12.2 RPG
3.3 APG
1.7 BPG

KG against LA in 03-04 playoffs -
23.6 PPG
13.5 RPG
4.5 APG
1.2 BPG

I hate to keep comparing KG and Duncan, but I think it's pretty obvious that for a number of years it was Duncan, KG, then everyone else. Both players make their teammates better both offensively and defensively, that's why they are both first ballot hall of fame MVPs with the defensive hardware to back it up

Chronz
01-12-2011, 05:44 PM
but look at the other players Duncan has helped to make solid contributors.
Yes lets,


Roger Mason was begging to get minutes on a lottery team in Washington, he shows up in SA and all of a sudden he's a starter/rotation player on a title contender!
You didnt analyze anything you just mentioned his situation. Look I could do the same. Rafer Alston was a starter on a Finals team, he was replaced in Houston by a backup on a lottery team (Kyle Lowry) and the Rockets improved. Less than a year later Rafer was back on a lottery team and out the league thereafter.

Roger Mason in Washington was basically the same player he was in San Antonio


Bruce Bowen? How many teams cut him? He plays alongside Duncan in Pop's rotation, and by the time he retire's he has the longest running games-started streak in the league, has become a defensive master and nails three's like crazy.
Its almost as if you dont know that Bruce Bowen was an All-League Defender BEFORE San Antonio. His improvements with his shooting are his own, if you want to credit anyone for him finding his niche credit Riley.


the Suns drafted Stephen Jackson only to cut him loose, and the guy dangles in the wind for several years unable to make and NBA team, and then all of sudden he's playing like an all-star.
False, he has never played like an All-Star and he bounced around because he was a headcase. He too has had his best years outside of San Antonio.


I have no doubts that Ginobili would have been a great talent where ever he went, though perhaps not the star he is with Duncan and Pop, and I'm sure Parker would have impressed some with his speed, but the bottom line is, without Duncan encouraging a pass first mentality, and clearing the lanes by drawing double teams, these guys would not be playing at the level they are.
Not buying it, you do realize there was ample playing time to be had without Duncan on the court for both Manu and Parker. In that time they were basically the same players as well.

Chronz
01-12-2011, 05:50 PM
There has NEVER been a single player in NBA history to MAKE another GREAT. NEVER HAPPENS. Dont let cliches ruin your viewpoint of the NBA. If any player HELPS another thats different, its still ALL on the player to take that advice and do something with it.

You could surround Gerald Green, with MJ, Pippen, Duncan, Nash, and Kareem its still ENTIRELY on Gerald to do something with his god given ability.

jasonbird
01-12-2011, 09:38 PM
yup do you think hes a top 5 player ever?

Of course ,he did.

He is an amazing player.

Good luck,Timmy