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JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 09:35 AM
Part I (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556860)


http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-110111/nba-awards-watch1





1. Derrick Rose,
Chicago Bulls G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
36 37.8 .456 .377 .798 1.1 0.5 4.5 8.1 24.3 22.9
He said, "This year I want to be MVP." He might get his wish. The Bulls have the third-best record in the East despite both Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah missing time. (Last week: 1 | Team record: 25-12)
2. LeBron James,
Miami Heat G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
39 37.8 .483 .364 .772 1.5 0.5 7.0 7.2 25.3 26.3
Hate on LeBron all you want for "The Decision" or for taking the easy road to a possible title by forming the "Three Kings" in Miami, but a third straight MVP is within reach. (Last week: 4 | Team record: 30-9)
3. Amare Stoudemire,
New York Knicks G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
36 37.4 .513 .545 .775 0.9 2.4 9.1 2.6 26.3 23.7
The Knicks are playoff-bound, and Stoudemire has made basketball in New York City matter once again while averaging career highs in points, assists and blocked shots. (Last week: 5 | Team record: 21-15)
4. Dwight Howard,
Orlando Magic G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
35 35.7 .564 .000 .576 1.2 2.3 13.1 1.2 21.2 24.1
In the 22-year history of the Magic, the team has never posted a double-digit win streak. With Howard leading the way, its streak is now at nine games. (Last week: 7 | Team record: 25-12)
5. Dirk Nowitzki,
Dallas Mavericks G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
29 35.4 .545 .403 .879 0.7 0.8 7.4 2.4 24.1 24.9
Not that anyone doubted Dirk's worth, but look at how the Mavs have struggled without their superstar. Dallas is 2-5 in the seven games he's missed since hurting his knee. (Last week: 1 | Team record: 26-10)
6. Dwyane Wade,
Miami Heat G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
37 36.4 .493 .311 .745 1.5 0.9 6.6 4.2 24.9 25.9
D-Wade and LeBron are the best one-two punch in the league. Miami has won 21 of 22, and the Heat's hot streak began when Wade increased his scoring. (Last week: NR | Team record: 30-9)
7. Russell Westbrook
Oklahoma City Thunder G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
38 35.7 .431 .262 .873 1.9 0.4 4.9 8.0 21.9 23.2
Kevin Durant has the gaudier stats, but Westbrook, who posted a triple-double five games ago against the Hawks, has been consistently good all season. (Last week: 9 | Team record: 25-13)
8. Deron Williams,
Utah Jazz G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
38 37.9 .458 .361 .849 1.1 0.2 3.7 9.3 21.8 22.9
A case could be made that D-Will has been the best guard in the West, but he might need help making the All-Star team. He is currently fifth in fan voting. (Last week: 3 | Team record: 25-13)
9. Kobe Bryant,
Los Angeles Lakers G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
38 33.2 .445 .319 .827 1.3 0.1 5.0 4.5 25.2 23.7
After dropping three games in a row, Kobe & Co. have won six of seven. Bryant, who is fourth in the league in scoring, is back to skipping practice to rest his knee. (Last week: 8 | Team record: 27-11)
10. Chris Paul,
New Orleans Hornets G MIN FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK RPG AST PTS PER
38 35.1 .493 .460 .898 2.8 0.1 4.3 9.7 16.7 26.5
He's ninth in double-doubles (17), third in assists and first in PER, assists-to-turnover ratio and steals. Also, he is shooting a career high on 3s and free throws. (Last week: 10 | Team record: 22-16)

Swashcuff
01-11-2011, 10:04 AM
http://www.nba.com/racetomvp/

Says Amar'e is the new #1 and I have no problem with that choice thus far but I think by season's end LeBron will solidify himself as the front runner. May not win however but if the Heat is still playing ball this well I see him having a very strong case despite the superstar supporting cast.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 10:21 AM
http://www.nba.com/racetomvp/

Says Amar'e is the new #1 and I have no problem with that choice thus far but I think by season's end LeBron will solidify himself as the front runner. May not win however but if the Heat is still playing ball this well I see him having a very strong case despite the superstar supporting cast.
This are the last weeks results. Guess who will be on the top this week...

Swashcuff
01-11-2011, 10:34 AM
This are the last weeks results. Guess who will be on the top this week...

My bad there I didn't even look at the stats or records saw Amar'e on top and posted. LeBron should really be #1 this week.

blueplanet
01-11-2011, 11:29 AM
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade


3. Amare
4. Dirk
5. Dwight

WHO CARES.....

mikantsass
01-11-2011, 12:06 PM
1 Lebron
2 Amare
3 Dirk
4 Dwight
5 Wade

Furymaker
01-11-2011, 12:07 PM
It's between D-Rose and LBJ this week ...

alencp3
01-11-2011, 12:08 PM
1.James
2.Amare
3.Wade
4.Dwight
5.Rose
6.Durant
7.Dirk (due to injury)
8.Kobe
9.Deron
10.Griffin

beasted86
01-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Um, no, what are you talking about sir? Go read the TWO posts I quoted. One said:

Quote:
It's the NY factor, just like Bynum is a "20/10" center just because he plays for LA.

Bosh was at 25 PPG, 12 REB 51% through the first 30 games last year and didn't get this hype.
I was talking about Bynum. Not Amare, Bynum. No, Amare doesn't play defense, however, he was added to a very ****** team and has brought them up to the level of "pretty good team" as opposed to Bosh. Bosh put up absolutely amazing numbers last year but his team blew dick. Ergo, he did not get the hype/credit someone like a Bynum/Amare gets. I was talking about EXACTLY what I said I was. I used Bynum because he was the guy name dropped, even if Amare was referenced without his name being said.

I'm aware he was talking about Bosh vs Amare because of their stats last year and the hype surrounding them, but I was just talking about why Bynum gets talked up so much because he's from LA as opposed to why Bosh did not last year playing for Toronto. Simply: He was on a terrible team.

Secondly, I did not in ANY way take a "jab'" at LeBron. Did you even read what I said? It was a compliment and a testament to how ****ing good your team is, not a shot at LBJ.

Read it again:

Quote:
1) Lebron is not the MVP. Because had the Heat signed Wade and Bosh and not traded the rest of their team and instead signed a couple guys to come in off the bench, they're still easily a 50+ win team, possibly even close to 60. LeBron just cannot add SO much to a team already capable of being that good.
I said LeBron is NOT the MVP because he does not add more to the Heat than some of the best players add to their teams. I did not say it's because he's not good, he's extremely good, he's the best player in the NBA, but because the Heat were/are already capable of being an incredible team even without him, he is not someone I consider the "Most Valuable" to a team.

Just because someone says LBJ isn't MVP doesn't mean it's a jab. Don't be so sensitive. Jesus.
I don't know why you are talking about Bynum to be honest then. I only used him as a reference for hype and overvaluing by fans. But since you are on that subject... Bynum never got the overall praise or accolades and never sniffed any MVP rankings in comparison to Bosh, and it somehow sounds like you are saying he should have been getting more attention even though he wasn't anyway. You can't be the 3rd option on a team, that doesn't even close out most games, and being injured all the time, and supposedly are a top 3 Center in the NBA. If Phil Jackson has Bynum on the bench in the 4th quarter when he's healthy... that alone should dispel any notion in anyone's head that he's a top 3 center. So as I said, Bynum has the hype going for him as Amare does mainly because of the city/team they play for.

Last year at this same point the Raptors were at .500 and in 6th place. The Knicks are 5 games over .500 and in 6th place. The stats difference is negligible when you consider pace and minutes between Amare now and Bosh last year. The huge edge Amare has going for him is making NY relevant again and the market he plays for where he gets more exposure than Bosh could ever hope for.

beasted86
01-11-2011, 01:03 PM
And on the subject of LeBron.

How can the best player in the NBA for the past 2 years suddenly not have a great overall impact on his new team? How exactly does that work.

The Heat realistically added 2.5 "impact" players: LeBron, Bosh, Miller.... and one of these guys are injured. Even with the injury, the Heat were a .500 team last year at this point and are now the #1 seed in the conference on pace for 65 wins. Even if the Heat could have been a "good" 50 win team without LeBron, instead they are now a "great" 65 win team with him. Whether or not he should win MVP is regardless from the fact he deserves to always be a top 4 in any rankings no matter what.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 01:21 PM
LeBron will win it. Unless Durant just goes off and gets OKC to the 1 or 2 seed in the West (not happening), and unless the Bulls or Knicks finish with the 1 or 2 seed (again, not happening), I don't think there will be a candidate that can topple LeBron...especially if he takes over a few more games like he did the other night.

Again, he's still the best player in the league...nothing at all has changed in that regard.

Dwight I think will be the dark horse. I think the Magic have a better chance at a high seed than those three teams (CHI, NYK and OKC)...

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 01:39 PM
Lebron won't win it unless the Heat run away with the conference. If anyone gets it on the Heat it may be Wade. Lebron's numbers are wayyy down from the past 2 years and even then he barely won it. Hell Durant almost won it last year despite being the 8th seed. I think someone like Amare or Rose would have a better chance to win MVP this year than Lebron unless the Heat win more than the Cavs won in 2009.

Gators123
01-11-2011, 01:46 PM
1 Lebron
2 Amare
3 Dirk
4 Dwight
5 Wade

This

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 01:57 PM
No one is going to get MVP if his next best teammate production is anywhere close to his unless you are Steve Nash or Willis Reed. Take for example Magic and Kareem. When did Magic win MVP? It was when Kareem's production had fallen off and wasn't close to Magic's.
When did Shaq win MVP? It was when his production was far better than Kobe's in 2000. Which is why in 2001 and 2002 Shaq didn't finish higher than 3rd either year.
When did Hakeem win MVP? When he was far better than anyone on his team production wise.
What about David Robinson?

Even Moses Malone won it once his production was a lot better than Dr J in 1983 and because they ran away with the best record in the league, when the next closest team in the conference was 9 games back and the next closest in the league was 7 games back.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1983.html


Compare this year. Lebron's PER is 26.2 vs 31.1 last year. His WS/48 this year is .241 compared to .299 last year.

His teammate right now has a PER of 25.9 and a WS/Per 48 of .236.

That is too close in production for Lebron to get MVP of the league over his teammate.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't know why you are talking about Bynum to be honest then. I only used him as a reference for hype and overvaluing by fans. But since you are on that subject... Bynum never got the overall praise or accolades and never sniffed any MVP rankings in comparison to Bosh, and it somehow sounds like you are saying he should have been getting more attention even though he wasn't anyway. You can't be the 3rd option on a team, that doesn't even close out most games, and being injured all the time, and supposedly are a top 3 Center in the NBA. If Phil Jackson has Bynum on the bench in the 4th quarter when he's healthy... that alone should dispel any notion in anyone's head that he's a top 3 center. So as I said, Bynum has the hype going for him as Amare does mainly because of the city/team they play for.

Last year at this same point the Raptors were at .500 and in 6th place. The Knicks are 5 games over .500 and in 6th place. The stats difference is negligible when you consider pace and minutes between Amare now and Bosh last year. The huge edge Amare has going for him is making NY relevant again and the market he plays for where he gets more exposure than Bosh could ever hope for.

No, I was not saying Bynum should be hyped at all. I was merely explaining why he WAS/IS hyped up to the extent that he is. Which had NOTHING to do with Amare.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:09 PM
And on the subject of LeBron.

How can the best player in the NBA for the past 2 years suddenly not have a great overall impact on his new team? How exactly does that work.

The Heat realistically added 2.5 "impact" players: LeBron, Bosh, Miller.... and one of these guys are injured. Even with the injury, the Heat were a .500 team last year at this point and are now the #1 seed in the conference on pace for 65 wins. Even if the Heat could have been a "good" 50 win team without LeBron, instead they are now a "great" 65 win team with him. Whether or not he should win MVP is regardless from the fact he deserves to always be a top 4 in any rankings no matter what.

He DOES have a great impact. But not the BIGGEST impact of anyone, simply because the team without him is already so good. For instance, if you take a 72-10 team and make them an 82-0 team you are not more valuable than someone that takes a 20-62 team and makes them 50-32. You just aren't. Because there IS a finite amount of value you can add. And the closer to Perfect the team you are on is, the less value you can add.

k.smith904
01-11-2011, 02:10 PM
lol @ people still ignoring Rose.

Watch how fast his APG goes up when we finally have Boozer AND Noah on the court. Dude is the best PG in the NBA right now.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:11 PM
Also another thing people are forgetting is that

1. Lebron will clearly have to outpeform Wade to get it (which isn't happening as Wade is probably top 2-3 in this regard in numbers as well)
2. Why would a player get 3 MVP's in a row without having won a title yet?

k.smith904
01-11-2011, 02:12 PM
^^ because it's a popularity contest.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Lebron won't win it unless the Heat run away with the conference. If anyone gets it on the Heat it may be Wade. Lebron's numbers are wayyy down from the past 2 years and even then he barely won it. Hell Durant almost won it last year despite being the 8th seed. I think someone like Amare or Rose would have a better chance to win MVP this year than Lebron unless the Heat win more than the Cavs won in 2009.
Man LeBron numbers are heading to 27/8/8 every game.
Miami should be nr. 1 in the east, maybe only Orlando can give us some problems. Celtics is the team to beat right now, but their record won't be that good by the end of the season.
You say he barely won his MVP's last 2 years? I think he won it almost by unanimous decision.
2008-2009 MVP

Earlier today, Lebron James, “The King” himself, was crowned the 2008-2009 NBA Most Valuable Player (MVP). The ceremony was fittingly held at the school where it all started for James—St. Vincent-St. Mary High School. LeBron led the MVP race with 1,172 votes, while the second place finisher, Kobe Bryant, totaled a mere 689 votes.
2009-2010 MVP

At the end of the regular season, Cleveland finished with the best regular season record for the second year consecutive year. James won the Most Valuable Player for the second time in his career, becoming the tenth NBA player in history to do so. James received 116 of a possible 122 first-place votes to win.
How a player with league best PER, Win Shares and from the team with the best season record not win MVP? He is not there yet, but he is heading there.

Sometimes your comments just don't make sense.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:16 PM
Man LeBron numbers are heading to 27/8/8 every game.
Miami should be nr. 1 in the east, maybe only Orlando can give us some problems. Celtics is the team to beat right now, but their record won't be that good by the end of the season.
You say he barely won his MVP's last 2 years? I think he won it almost by unanimous decision.
2008-2009 MVP

2009-2010 MVP

How a player with league best PER, Win Shares and from the team with the best season record not win MVP?

Sometimes your comments just don't make sense.

He doesn't have the league's best PER nor Win shares, Chris Paul does. So that means Chris Paul should be the MVP of the season right? My point stands, Lebron's numbers are down from the past two seasons. Past two season he had a 30+ PER now it is at 26 and his teammate's PER is just as good.

Avenged
01-11-2011, 02:22 PM
I expect Lebron to get it, although I'd like a new player to get the award this time. Amare/Rose/Durant/Wade would be nice to see for a change. Maybe even CP3 if he can somehow manage to elevate his teams record.

bigsams50
01-11-2011, 02:26 PM
No one is going to get MVP if his next best teammate production is anywhere close to his unless you are Steve Nash or Willis Reed. Take for example Magic and Kareem. When did Magic win MVP? It was when Kareem's production had fallen off and wasn't close to Magic's.
When did Shaq win MVP? It was when his production was far better than Kobe's in 2000. Which is why in 2001 and 2002 Shaq didn't finish higher than 3rd either year.
When did Hakeem win MVP? When he was far better than anyone on his team production wise.
What about David Robinson?

Even Moses Malone won it once his production was a lot better than Dr J in 1983 and because they ran away with the best record in the league, when the next closest team in the conference was 9 games back and the next closest in the league was 7 games back.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1983.html


Compare this year. Lebron's PER is 26.2 vs 31.1 last year. His WS/48 this year is .241 compared to .299 last year.

His teammate right now has a PER of 25.9 and a WS/Per 48 of .236.

That is too close in production for Lebron to get MVP of the league over his teammate.

Wouldn't that eliminate LBJ, Rose, Kobe and Durant then? Since they all have a second player on their team with production very close to theirs?

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:33 PM
He doesn't have the league's best PER nor Win shares, Chris Paul does. So that means Chris Paul should be the MVP of the season right? My point stands, Lebron's numbers are down from the past two seasons. Past two season he had a 30+ PER now it is at 26 and his teammate's PER is just as good.
Yeah Chris Paul is 1st in PER right now, but the difference is 0.18 only and LeBron PER is rising every day.
So your point is if player has a mind blowing 40 PER during the season and next season he averages 35 PER, much better PER than any other MVP candidate, he will not win the MVP? That's basically what you say.

Amare's PER is only 23.67 (10th), Rose's 22.93 (15th) and Boozer's 22.86 so what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Boozer? (That's your point about James and Wade MVP chances and similar PER). I doubt they have big chances at winning MVP in the end of the season.

I can put Amare in top 5 in MVP race, not looking at his awful defense, but not Rose.

In the end of the day it will be between LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant, Dirk.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:33 PM
Wouldn't that eliminate LBJ, Rose, Kobe and Durant then? Since they all have a second player on their team with production very close to theirs?

Rose's next best teammate isn't that close. Boozer has:
Pts/reb/ast
20.6/10.1/2.3

Rose has
24.3/4.5/8.1

The other thing with it is, Wade and Bron play so similarly AND put up such similar numbers.

It's not like people don't think LeBron is an absolute monster of a basketball player. He's just not more valuable to his team than other people in the league. Not cause he's not great, but because they'd still be a very, very good team, even without him.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Rose's next best teammate isn't that close. Boozer has:
Pts/reb/ast
20.6/10.1/2.3

Rose has
24.3/4.5/8.1

The other thing with it is, Wade and Bron play so similarly AND put up such similar numbers.

It's not like people don't think LeBron is an absolute monster of a basketball player. He's just not more valuable to his team than other people in the league. Not cause he's not great, but because they'd still be a very, very good team, even without him.
Rose PER - 23.93
Boozer PER - 23.86

Yeah Rose's next best teammate isn't that close.:facepalm:

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:37 PM
PER is a ****** stat. It's terrible. It is called Player Efficiency Rating, but guess what? It doesn't give a **** about efficiency.

Don't use PER. It's a giant pile of ***. It is quite honestly my least favorite stat in existence. And no, not because it puts Rose at a 23.93 or whatever, that's actually quite good, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with why he's good. PER is basically a counting stat turned into an average.

It's stupid. It'd be like me making up a stat for baseball that adds hits, homers and RBI and then divides it all by 150. It would probably do a great job showing you the better players in the league, but it'd still be a ****** stat.

bigsams50
01-11-2011, 02:38 PM
Rose's next best teammate isn't that close. Boozer has:
Pts/reb/ast
20.6/10.1/2.3

Rose has
24.3/4.5/8.1

The other thing with it is, Wade and Bron play so similarly AND put up such similar numbers.

It's not like people don't think LeBron is an absolute monster of a basketball player. He's just not more valuable to his team than other people in the league. Not cause he's not great, but because they'd still be a very, very good team, even without him.

That actually is pretty close. I mean Boozer's a legit 20 and 10 guy and his numbers are getting better as the year goes on. But i can see what your saying.

bigsams50
01-11-2011, 02:40 PM
Lebron won't win it unless the Heat run away with the conference. If anyone gets it on the Heat it may be Wade. Lebron's numbers are wayyy down from the past 2 years and even then he barely won it. Hell Durant almost won it last year despite being the 8th seed. I think someone like Amare or Rose would have a better chance to win MVP this year than Lebron unless the Heat win more than the Cavs won in 2009.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/02/james.mvp/index.html :eyebrow: Really guy? 600 votes is close nowadays?

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:42 PM
PER is a ****** stat. It's terrible. It is called Player Efficiency Rating, but guess what? It doesn't give a **** about efficiency.

Don't use PER. It's a giant pile of ***. It is quite honestly my least favorite stat in existence. And no, not because it puts Rose at a 23.93 or whatever, that's actually quite good, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with why he's good. PER is basically a counting stat turned into an average.

It's stupid.
Ok then lets use your numbers:

LeBron James
pts/reb/ast
25.3/7/7.2

Dwyane Wade:
pts/reb/ast
24.9/6.6/4.2

LeBron averages 0.4 PPG 0.4 RPG 3 APG more than Wade.
So why you say LeBron puts similar numbers to Wade?

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Yeah Chris Paul is 1st in PER right now, but the difference is 0.18 only and LeBron PER is rising every day.
So your point is if player has a mind blowing 40 PER during the season and next season he averages 35 PER, much better PER than any other MVP candidate, he will not win the MVP? That's basically what you say.

Amare's PER is only 23.67 (10th), Rose's 22.93 (15th) and Boozer's 22.86 so what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Boozer? (That's your point about James and Wade MVP chances and similar PER). I doubt they have big chances at winning MVP in the end of the season.

I can put Amare in top 5 in MVP race, not looking at his awful defense, but not Rose.

In the end of the day it will be between LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant, Dirk.

No, what is being said is that a guy who left his team to go to another team and his production is 26.2 to his teammate's 25.9 and while his WS/PER 48 is .241 to .236 is not going to get MVP when his numbers are clearly down from the past two years. Only way he gets it is if Wade misses significant time (15+ games) or Wade's numbers drop dramatically. That is what is being said.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:44 PM
That actually is pretty close. I mean Boozer's a legit 20 and 10 guy and his numbers are getting better as the year goes on. But i can see what your saying.

Well, for one thing, 10 rebounds isn't as impressive as 8.1 assists. But it's really not that close.

And like I said, the bigger issue is the way they do it. You have two of the top 5 people in the NBA on the same team putting up very similar numbers in the same categories. :shrug: It's just different than having two guys putting up good numbers in entirely separate categories.

Not just true for Rose, but for Kobe and Gasol as well. Or any other tandem in that fashion. Like with Nash and Amare back in the day.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Rose PER - 23.93
Boozer PER - 23.86

Yeah Rose's next best teammate isn't that close.:facepalm:

Boozer's numbers are close to Rose's, but the fact remains is that Boozer missed 15 games as well. If they both played around the same amount of games, I would agree, that Rose wouldn't be that high. He may be in the top 7 still, but not top 3.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Also another thing people are forgetting is that

1. Lebron will clearly have to outpeform Wade to get it (which isn't happening as Wade is probably top 2-3 in this regard in numbers as well)
2. Why would a player get 3 MVP's in a row without having won a title yet?

Because MVP is totally independent of winning titles. It's an individual aware, and rings are a team accomplishment. He finally has a team, let's see how he does.

Oh yeah, and it's possible, because despite what you say about Wade (or anyone else), LeBron has been the best player in the NBA for at least the last 2 seasons. That makes it pretty easy to win the MVP award. I mean, look at Cleveland now; there is NO DOUBT about how valuable he was to that team now.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:47 PM
Because MVP is totally independent of winning titles. It's an individual aware, and rings are a team accomplishment. He finally has a team, let's see how he does.

Oh yeah, and it's possible, because despite what you say about Wade (or anyone else), LeBron has been the best player in the NBA for at least the last 2 seasons. That makes it pretty easy to win the MVP award. I mean, look at Cleveland now; there is NO DOUBT about how valuable he was to that team now.

Disagree, the Cavs lost Shaq (1x MVP and 3x finals MVP) as well as West and Big Z as well as their coach. Not to mention they don't seem to care anymore.

Actually it makes it harder to get MVP again anyway. Of the guys who won 3 MVP's in a row, their 3rd season of the three was their best season.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
Because they ARE extremely similar. They both put up VERY similar PPG, VERY similar RPG. And as for the rebounds, well, one is a forward and the other is a guard

League average RPG (at least 25MPG and 10 games played):
Forwards: 6.8
Guards: 3.4

LeBron is .4 above average for his position. Wade is .8 above average for his. It's more impressive for a guard to put up 6.6 rebounds than it is for a Forward to put up 7.2.

And this same type of thing goes for LeBron's assists. LeBron's assist numbers from his position are far more impressive than Wade's for his.

In the end, for their positions both are putting up outstanding numbers. But they're doing it at a very similar level.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:50 PM
Disagree, the Cavs lost Shaq (1x MVP and 3x finals MVP) as well as West and Big Z as well as their coach. Not to mention they don't seem to care anymore.

Actually it makes it harder to get MVP again anyway. Of the guys who won 3 MVP's in a row, their 3rd season of the three was their best season.
You wanna say If Cleveland had Shaq and Z, their record wouldn't be 9-29 by now?

Minimal
01-11-2011, 02:51 PM
Because they ARE extremely similar. They both put up VERY similar PPG, VERY similar RPG. And as for the rebounds, well, one is a forward and the other is a guard

League average RPG (at least 25MPG and 10 games played):
Forwards: 6.8
Guards: 3.4

LeBron is .4 above average for his position. Wade is .8 above average for his. It's more impressive for a guard to put up 6.6 rebounds than it is for a Forward to put up 7.2.

And this same type of thing goes for LeBron's assists. LeBron's assist numbers from his position are far more impressive than Wade's for his.

In the end, for their positions both are putting up outstanding numbers. But they're doing it at a very similar level.
And man are you taking into account Power Forward and Small Forwards?
Tell me the average RPG in the league for a small forward.
And tell me what is the average APG in league for a small forward and a shooting guard.

P.S in last 10 games LeBron averages around 9 rebounds.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:51 PM
Don't pay attention to JB. He's... weird.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:52 PM
You wanna say If Cleveland had Shaq and Z, their record wouldn't be 9-29 by now?

Nope. Also add in Delonte West and Mike Brown and make the Knicks and Bulls as good as last year.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 02:53 PM
Ok then tell what is the average APG in league for a forward.

P.S in last 10 games LeBron averages around 9 rebounds.

And the last 10 games means what to me?

Answer: Jack ****.

You know why? Because it all goes into his season averages. I'd be willing to bet there will at some point be a period where he averages something like 6RPG over a large span of time.

Why do you act like I'm insulting the man by saying he is the best player in the NBA, just not the most valuable to his team.

To make a new analogy. LeBron is like a $100 bill. The Heat are millionaires while, say, the Nets are somebody making 50K per year.

That $100 is always worth $100 but it's FAR more valuable to a person making 50K per year than a millionaire.

It's not like I'm not saying LeBron is a beast. He is. He's just not the most VALUABLE player. He's no less amazing at basketball. But he's less valuable BECAUSE he is on a team that would be great anyways.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 02:55 PM
People are missing the whole point here. The point being made is that Lebron won't win MVP unless he clearly outproduces Wade and/or the Heat run away with the best record in the league by a fair margin (by at least 5+ games). If their production is as close as it is now, neither will win MVP. They both may finish top 3-4, but someone else will finish ahead of them.

My post here describes what has happened and when stars won league mvp.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16265445&postcount=14

Minimal
01-11-2011, 03:00 PM
And the last 10 games means what to me?

Answer: Jack ****.

You know why? Because it all goes into his season averages. I'd be willing to bet there will at some point be a period where he averages something like 6RPG over a large span of time.

Why do you act like I'm insulting the man by saying he is the best player in the NBA, just not the most valuable to his team.

To make a new analogy. LeBron is like a $100 bill. The Heat are millionaires while, say, the Nets are somebody making 50K per year.

That $100 is always worth $100 but it's FAR more valuable to a person making 50K per year than a millionaire.

It's not like I'm not saying LeBron is a beast. He is. He's just not the most VALUABLE player. He's no less amazing at basketball. But he's less valuable BECAUSE he is on a team that would be great anyways.
You say forwards average 6.8 RPG. So you taking into account both Small Forwards and Power Forwards right? But you say how much Shooting Guards average RPG, but not all Guards (PG, SG) If I'm not mistaken LeBron plays a Small Forward right? So what is the average RPG for a Small Forward?

ManRam
01-11-2011, 03:00 PM
Disagree, the Cavs lost Shaq (1x MVP and 3x finals MVP) as well as West and Big Z as well as their coach. Not to mention they don't seem to care anymore.

Actually it makes it harder to get MVP again anyway. Of the guys who won 3 MVP's in a row, their 3rd season of the three was their best season.

Come on. If you really think those guys were huge factors in that team's success, you're crazy. Yes, they mattered. No, they didn't matter for more than maybe 5 wins last year.

1. Shaq is a 20 minute a game player. He was an MVP award winner a decade ago. He was a 3 winshare player last year. He got dominated by opposing bigs in the playoffs. He's the oldest player in the league...

2. Delonte West was abysmal in the playoffs, started a whopping 5 games, missed 1/3 of the regular season. Again, he's a 25 minute a game player. Ramon Sessions has exceeded Delonte's production in the same exact role...by a significant margin. He's not a big loss...he was a team cancer too. Him leaving also allowed Boobie to get more minutes, and he too is outproducing Delonte by miles as well. They're statistically much better off without him actually.

3. They traded Big Z. He started 6 games for them. He had a sub 12 PER. He didn't even play 10 minutes a game in the playoffs. He was a complete non-factor. He was barely a 2 win share player.

Delonte and Z have been more than adequately replaced in terms of production. Shaq is the oldest player in the league, had an ORtg of 104 last year, had 3 win shares...Z was a complete non-factor late in the season. His loss hurts, a little, but you are hugely overstating it. Him being a top 10 player of all time doesn't mean squat now...he isn't 1/10th of that player any more. At best, he's going to cost the team 4-5 wins by being gone.

LeBron is the only guy that hasn't been replaced, and they are by far the worst team in the NBA now.

And the coach? The coach was LeBron. LeBron was also a 20 win share player...and that number looks pretty low as is.


If he is the best player on the best team, he should win it. He is the best player in the league anyways. He's outproducing Wade in every advanced stat there is right now as well.

Baller1
01-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Durant will win it. :)

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 03:06 PM
You say forwards average 6.8 RPG. So you taking into account both Small Forwards and Power Forwars right? But you say how much Shooting Guards average RPG, but not all Guards (PG, SG) If I'm not mistaken LeBron plays a Small Forward right? So what is the average RPG for a Small Forward?

Is aid all guards?

And for SF it's 5.2.

For SG it's 3.4.

Wade grabs 6.6 per game. +3.2
Bron grabs 7.0 per game +1.8.

For SG assists are 2.9.

For SF it's 2.4.

Bron gets 7.2 per game +4.8
Wade gets 4.2 per game +1.3

In total they get +4.5 and +6.6 together.

Which is very close, Bron adds +1.1 more over the average SF than Wade does over the average SG.

Both are outstanding players. But neither is MVP for me, because of the analogy I made in the post you quoted. $100 is more valuable to a man in a middle of the road job than it is to a millionaire.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Nope. Also add in Delonte West and Mike Brown and make the Knicks and Bulls as good as last year.
Mike Who?

You really believe he was a great coach?
If he was a great coach he would be in the NBA by now, not Vinny Del Negro.

He was one of the worst coaches in NBA, without his word and influence. And as soon as Cleveland players choked in playoffs, he choked along with them.

And now they have a much better coach in Byron Scott.

This whole team was on LeBron shoulders since 2003.
They were worst team before they drafted LeBron and they are the worst team after they lost LeBron.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 03:13 PM
If he is the best player on the best team, he should win it. He is the best player in the league anyways. He's outproducing Wade in every advanced stat there is right now as well.

Not unless he is clearly the best. That is what you are forgetting.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Not unless he is clearly the best. That is what you are forgetting.

Okay. Fair enough, but I think by the end of the season it will be clear.

Also, any thoughts on the rest of my post, or do you really seriously believe the reason the Cavs are struggling this year is because they lost Z, Shaq and Delonte...and probably the worst coach in the NBA who probably won't ever get a starting gig again?

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 03:47 PM
Okay. Fair enough, but I think by the end of the season it will be clear.

Also, any thoughts on the rest of my post, or do you really seriously believe the reason the Cavs are struggling this year is because they lost Z, Shaq and Delonte...and probably the worst coach in the NBA who probably won't ever get a starting gig again?

Well the Cavs started off quite well with everyone playing, but since then they just don't seem to care at all. Everyone seems to just try to make the play themselves and they just don't seem organized.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 03:50 PM
Miami in 2005 with Shaq and Wade, the same thing happened, people thought Shaq should get the award, but he and Wade were too close in production

D1JM
01-11-2011, 03:56 PM
One thing people forget is that the cavs haven't been healthy at all this season.

Kenny
01-11-2011, 03:59 PM
One thing people forget is that the cavs haven't been healthy at all this season.

that team would win 60-65 gmes wit Lebron. The team went like 13-0 when Mo williams got hurt. Jamison was not even on the team that won 66 games and barely on last years team. Shaq wasn't on the 66 win team either and missed 30 games last year.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 04:04 PM
One thing people forget is that the cavs haven't been healthy at all this season.

Ummm...How?

Anderson just went down for the year, but he has been healthy all season prior to that. Not a single one of their top 8 players has missed more than 7 games. Powe went down, but he wasn't a factor this season. Joey Graham is hurt, but again it's JOEY GRAHAM.

They've been as healthy as just about every other team in the league. Losing Andy will hurt, but that's in terms of the future, not the past.

We're getting off-topic here. I understand people will refuse to give LeBron credit at every cost possible, but sometimes people just need to open up their eyes and be objective. Delonte has been upgraded. Z was useless last season. Shaq at best added 4-5 wins to the roster. The have a better coach now than they did last year. It's LeBron; that's the difference. Talk about losing inspiration and all that, but not having LeBron is probably the reason they've lost inspiration.

Kenny
01-11-2011, 04:06 PM
Ummm...How?

Anderson just went down for the year, but he has been healthy all season prior to that. Not a single one of their top 8 players has missed more than 7 games. Powe went down, but he wasn't a factor this season. Joey Graham is hurt, but again it's JOEY GRAHAM.

They've been as healthy as just about every other team in the league. Losing Andy will hurt, but that's in terms of the future, not the past.

We're getting off-topic here. I understand people will refuse to give LeBron credit at every cost possible, but sometimes people just need to open up their eyes and be objective. Delonte has been upgraded. Z was useless last season. Shaq at best added 4-5 wins to the roster. The have a better coach now than they did last year. It's LeBron; that's the difference. Talk about losing inspiration and all that, but not having LeBron is probably the reason they've lost inspiration.


shaq didnt do **** as well. They won more games without him.

D1JM
01-11-2011, 04:23 PM
Ummm...How?

Anderson just went down for the year, but he has been healthy all season prior to that. Not a single one of their top 8 players has missed more than 7 games. Powe went down, but he wasn't a factor this season. Joey Graham is hurt, but again it's JOEY GRAHAM.

They've been as healthy as just about every other team in the league. Losing Andy will hurt, but that's in terms of the future, not the past.

We're getting off-topic here. I understand people will refuse to give LeBron credit at every cost possible, but sometimes people just need to open up their eyes and be objective. Delonte has been upgraded. Z was useless last season. Shaq at best added 4-5 wins to the roster. The have a better coach now than they did last year. It's LeBron; that's the difference. Talk about losing inspiration and all that, but not having LeBron is probably the reason they've lost inspiration.

did i say i did or didnt give credit to lebron? All i said was that the cavs have not been healthy. Injuries are part of the game and you have to adapt to them, but they do affect a team. Lebron was the leader on that team and he was the main reason they were good. However, if lebron was taken away from heat, the heat would still be a very good team. We wouldnt know how good this team would be without him, but they could of probably gotten two-three good role players to play next to wade and bosh.

mikantsass
01-11-2011, 04:53 PM
Also another thing people are forgetting is that

1. Lebron will clearly have to outpeform Wade to get it (which isn't happening as Wade is probably top 2-3 in this regard in numbers as well)
2. Why would a player get 3 MVP's in a row without having won a title yet?

Maybe because the MVP is a REGULAR SEASON award. It has nothing to do with winning a title. That is why they give out a finals MVP.

boozdawg
01-11-2011, 05:11 PM
d rose is going to win MVP. book it.

godolphins
01-11-2011, 05:11 PM
Amare shouldn't win it at all if the Knicks finish with the fourth, fifth or six seed. Because Kobe used to have great individual numbers when the Lakers used to finished in the middle of the pack in the West but he still wasn't able to win the MVP, the same should applied for Stoudamire

bigsams50
01-11-2011, 05:37 PM
did i say i did or didnt give credit to lebron? All i said was that the cavs have not been healthy. Injuries are part of the game and you have to adapt to them, but they do affect a team. Lebron was the leader on that team and he was the main reason they were good. However, if lebron was taken away from heat, the heat would still be a very good team. We wouldnt know how good this team would be without him, but they could of probably gotten two-three good role players to play next to wade and bosh.

Wouldn't that make it a completely new team then?

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 05:52 PM
Thing is is that Dirk is showing why is the MVP, the team can't win without him. Also the Heat although Haslem and Miller have been out, they haven't missed any of their starters for any time, while Chicago was w/o Boozer for 15 games and now Noah for the last 13 games.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 06:49 PM
Wouldn't that make it a completely new team then?

That has a lot to do with how valuable someone is to a team. Cost does matter. LeBron is so good that obviously he outweighs the cost for him by a very, very, very large amount like most guys that are making near or max money. But all the same when taking into account the value of a player cost does matter.

That's why some people are LVP's of teams, simply because they are a contract that is getting in the way of a team making a move. They may not even suck, but they could be in the way of a team making a move because of their contract and thus be detrimental to the team.

Sure, it's a different team, but the Heat without LeBron could still be damn good. They'd have a couple different players and hell, even without those couple players, they'd be outstanding anyways.

Cubs Win
01-11-2011, 06:58 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-110111/nba-awards-watch

MVP Race (According to that link):
1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Dwight Howard
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Russell Westbrook
8. Deron Williams
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Chris Paul

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:01 PM
That has a lot to do with how valuable someone is to a team. Cost does matter. LeBron is so good that obviously he outweighs the cost for him by a very, very, very large amount like most guys that are making near or max money. But all the same when taking into account the value of a player cost does matter.

That's why some people are LVP's of teams, simply because they are a contract that is getting in the way of a team making a move. They may not even suck, but they could be in the way of a team making a move because of their contract and thus be detrimental to the team.

Sure, it's a different team, but the Heat without LeBron could still be damn good. They'd have a couple different players and hell, even without those couple players, they'd be outstanding anyways.
I guess you forgot about money sacrifice. Wade, James, Bosh, Haslem sacrificed their money so they could play together.
If James didn't come to Miami there would be no sacrifice and there would be no money to buy another great players. Besides that there were no great players left after he signed with Heat.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:03 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-110111/nba-awards-watch

MVP Race (According to that link):
1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Dwight Howard
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Russell Westbrook
8. Deron Williams
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Chris Paul
ESPN:facepalm:

Seriously what does make Rose a better MVP candidate than Howard for example?

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 07:07 PM
ESPN:facepalm:

Seriously what does make Rose a better MVP candidate than Howard for example?

I guess you don't watch rose very much. I'm sure NBA.com will say the same thing.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 07:13 PM
I guess you forgot about money sacrifice. Wade, James, Bosh, Haslem sacrificed their money so they could play together.
If James didn't come to Miami there would be no sacrifice and there would be no money to buy another great players. Besides that there were no great players left after he signed with Heat.

I'm well aware they sacrificed some money. But they still cost a shitload. They're not playing for free.

I also seem to have forgotten that ONLY great players can add value to a team. Role players and solid starters don't mean **** do they?

Which is more what I was saying. You'd have Wade and Bosh and you'd build around that with a couple of solid players, maybe adding a Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver to put around them instead of them going to the Bulls.

Obviously this is not as good as having just LBJ, but it is something that a team can add and it does still form an EXTREMELY good team.

Once again, as I've said 100 times, it's not a slight against James, he's just not an MVP because he can only make the team he's on SO much better. Without James, the Heat are still very good. They're not like, 30-9 or whatever they are now. But they'd probably still be top 3 in the East.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:24 PM
I guess you don't watch rose very much. I'm sure NBA.com will say the same thing.
That is not the answer for my question.

I don't watch Rose much, but I watched him play against Celtics, when he outplayed Rondo, he played great, I'll admit that.
So if I'll watch Rose every day bulls play, he'll be my top MVP candidate?

My question is why Rose is 1st and Howard only 4th. Can you answer me that?

Cubs Win
01-11-2011, 07:26 PM
My question is why Rose is 1st and Howard only 4th. Can you answer me that?

Because based on the stats and what the writer has seen of both players (in addition to the other players surrounding them), that is his opinion.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 07:27 PM
Probably because Rose has led the team to the same record with one of the Bulls three best players being injured for almost every single game this season. Boozer was out, came back, and almost immediately after that Noah went down.

I don't even necessarily agree that Rose is more worthy of MVP than Howard. But that would be the reason. I mean, it's literally RIGHT there in text for you.


He said, "This year I want to be MVP." He might get his wish. The Bulls have the third-best record in the East despite both Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah missing time.

See?

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:36 PM
Because based on the stats and what the writer has seen of both players (in addition to the other players surrounding them), that is his opinion.
Based on the stats
Howard has 1.2 PER more than Rose
Howard has 0.10 Win Shares/48 more than Rose.

SOS of Last 10 games for Bulls is .398
SOS of Last 10 games for Orlando is .550

Bulls are 7-3 on L10
Orlando are 9-1 on L10

Bulls L10 Scoring Margin is +6.20
Orlando L10 Scoring Margin is +11.90

Magic and Bulls records are the same
They have the same supporting cast.

So what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Howard?

Here is the answer:

Nothing.

ESPN is BS.

kntresistheheat
01-11-2011, 07:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-110111/nba-awards-watch

MVP Race (According to that link):
1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Dwight Howard
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Dwyane Wade
7. Russell Westbrook
8. Deron Williams
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Chris Paul

There something wrong with this picture:confused:

Cubs Win
01-11-2011, 07:37 PM
Based on the stats
Howard has 1.2 PER more than Rose
Howard has 0.10 Win Shares/48 more than Rose.

SOS of Last 10 games for Bulls is .398
SOS of Last 10 games for Orlando is .550

Bulls are 7-3 on L10
Orlando are 9-1 on L10

Magic and Bulls records are the same
They have the same supporting cast.

So what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Howard?

Here is the answer:

Nothing.

ESPN is BS.

Except for the Heat Index of course. :eyebrow:

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 07:41 PM
Based on the stats
Howard has 1.2 PER more than Rose
Howard has 0.10 Win Shares/48 more than Rose.

SOS of Last 10 games for Bulls is .398
SOS of Last 10 games for Orlando is .550

Bulls are 7-3 on L10
Orlando are 9-1 on L10

Magic and Bulls records are the same
They have the same supporting cast.

So what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Howard?

Here is the answer:

Nothing.

ESPN is BS.

A) They have the same supporting cast? Seriously? I'm pretty much 100% sure they have very different supporting casts.

B) There's more to this whole thing than the last 10 games. I'm pretty sure this entire thing is based on a season's worth of work, not 10 games.

C) SOS is a nice tool to use, but it's got very little to do with MVP. If it did, well, James really would have no business being near the top. The Heat are only one spot higher than the Bulls on SOS as it stands right now. And really, there's nothing the players can do about who they play other than try to beat them.

D) Everyone knows ESPN is BS.

E) That has nothing to do with MVP, in fact little you said does.

F) PER is an incredibly ****** stat, as I've said so, so many times. Stop using it. It's terrible.

G) Win Shares are also pretty ****** because they rely on DRTG which is a very ****** defensive stat for an individual player. Using DRTG for a team is great, but it's really not very good for judging a single player's defense.

You can hate Rose all you want. I really don't care. I don't necessarily believe he should be #1 either. You asked a question. I told you the answer and you can choose to call ESPN's analysis crap if you want, once again, don't care. But you asked a question and I gave you an answer.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 07:42 PM
PER is not a stat. and just stop with the rose hate. Rose has carried a team who hasn't been healthy this year to 13 games above 500 and the 3rd best record in the EAST. just stop

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 07:44 PM
Based on the stats
Howard has 1.2 PER more than Rose
Howard has 0.10 Win Shares/48 more than Rose.

SOS of Last 10 games for Bulls is .398
SOS of Last 10 games for Orlando is .550

Bulls are 7-3 on L10
Orlando are 9-1 on L10

Bulls L10 Scoring Margin is +6.20
Orlando L10 Scoring Margin is +11.90

Magic and Bulls records are the same
They have the same supporting cast.

So what makes Rose better MVP candidate than Howard?

Here is the answer:

Nothing.

ESPN is BS.

all they do is cater to lebron. if anything, for them not to put lebron number 1, shows you he isn't the number 1 mvp candidate right now

ManRam
01-11-2011, 07:47 PM
PER is not a stat. and just stop with the rose hate. Rose has carried a team who hasn't been healthy this year to 13 games above 500 and the 3rd best record in the EAST. just stop

What?

But I would have Rose at the top of my list right NOW. I don't think he'll be there at season's end, however.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 07:50 PM
What?

But I would have Rose at the top of my list right NOW. I don't think he'll be there at season's end, however.

come on manram, if you have seen my posts before, PER is not a REAL stat. no one else uses thats respectable. only hollinger uses and he even freely admits it's for entertainment purposes.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 07:52 PM
What?

But I would have Rose at the top of my list right NOW. I don't think he'll be there at season's end, however.

You are aware everyone is talking about RIGHT NOW though right? You can make all the guesses about the end of the year that you want. It has very little to nothing to do with who deserves what right now.

Though, I am curious why you think Rose won't be there at the end of the year when all he's done is do everything the same except get to the line more often lately.

Also, PER sucks.

Cubs Win
01-11-2011, 07:53 PM
You are aware everyone is talking about RIGHT NOW though right? You can make all the guesses about the end of the year that you want. It has very little to nothing to do with who deserves what right now.

Though, I am curious why you think Rose won't be there at the end of the year when all he's done is do everything the same except get to the line more often lately.

Also, PER sucks.

Agreed. If anything he'll be putting up the same numbers just more efficiently, if not slightly better numbers IMO.

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:57 PM
A) They have the same supporting cast? Seriously? I'm pretty much 100% sure they have very different supporting casts.

B) There's more to this whole thing than the last 10 games. I'm pretty sure this entire thing is based on a season's worth of work, not 10 games.

C) SOS is a nice tool to use, but it's got very little to do with MVP. If it did, well, James really would have no business being near the top. The Heat are only one spot higher than the Bulls on SOS as it stands right now. And really, there's nothing the players can do about who they play other than try to beat them.

D) Everyone knows ESPN is BS.

E) That has nothing to do with MVP, in fact little you said does.

F) PER is an incredibly ****** stat, as I've said so, so many times. Stop using it. It's terrible.

G) Win Shares are also pretty ****** because they rely on DRTG which is a very ****** defensive stat for an individual player. Using DRTG for a team is great, but it's really not very good for judging a single player's defense.

You can hate Rose all you want. I really don't care. I don't necessarily believe he should be #1 either. You asked a question. I told you the answer and you can choose to call ESPN's analysis crap if you want, once again, don't care. But you asked a question and I gave you an answer.

A) They have the same level supproting cast, maybe slight edge on Orlando since they made a trade.
B) Ok then lets consider they have the same record. That's all.
C) Makes no sense. Miami won 21 of 22 last games since their bad start and they've beaten all kinds of teams. If LeBron shouldn't be sticking on the top of MVP list, then I guess you need to see a doctor.
D) ...
E) ...
F) PER is a great stat to show players effectiveness on both offense and defense.
G) So lets just remove Defensive presense of Howard and just leave offensive, right? I guess Amare is the MVP then for sure. From now on MVP belongs to players with best offense? DRTG is an individual stat and not team stat, maybe it's affected by a team just a bit, but Bulls and Orlando are both great defensive teams.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 08:00 PM
come on manram, if you have seen my posts before, PER is not a REAL stat. no one else uses thats respectable. only hollinger uses and he even freely admits it's for entertainment purposes.

It is a real stat, in the sense that it is far more telling than most every other basic and "old school" (archaic) stat. Is it flawless or a stat that should just be used on it's own and considered the be-all end-all? No. But it does have telling power. To completely write it off is just not smart. It tells more than any per game stat does when used on it's own...unless you are describing one specific characteristic of the game. To say it isn't a stat worth considering is just juvenile. But again, I agree that you can't prove anyone is better using it, which is what people often try to do.

It does tier players better than any stat there is, besides maybe win shares. And that's why people are going to use it in MVP discussions, because that's what people are doing: tiering players.


You are aware everyone is talking about RIGHT NOW though right? You can make all the guesses about the end of the year that you want. It has very little to nothing to do with who deserves what right now.

Though, I am curious why you think Rose won't be there at the end of the year when all he's done is do everything the same except get to the line more often lately.



Yes. Which is why I said how I feel right now.

I don't think he'll be there at season's end because I think Chicago will finish with the 4 seed, and because I think Howard, LeBron and Durant will all make some big surges in the second half.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:04 PM
A) They have the same level supproting cast, maybe slight edge on Orlando since they made a trade.
B) Ok then lets consider they have the same record. That's all.
C) Makes no sense. Miami won 21 of 22 last games since their bad start and they've beaten all kinds of teams. If LeBron shouldn't be sticking on the top of MVP list, then I guess you need to see a doctor.
D) ...
E) ...
F) PER is a great stat to show players effectiveness on both offense and defense.
G) So lets just remove Defensive presense of Howard and just leave offensive, right? I guess Amare is the MVP then for sure. From now on MVP belongs to players with best offense?
A) I would say they have a pretty big edge. Their team around Howard after those trades is quite possibly the best supporting cast in the NBA outside the Lakers. Maybe when the Bulls get Noah back it'll be relatively close though.
B) Yes. They do.
C) You are the one that brought up SOS as an excuse for someone not being an MVP candidate, not me. I was stating that, by your logic, LeBron doesn't belong near the top. I think he belongs top five. I will never think he belongs at the #1 spot because he is not the most valuable player to a team in the league. As his team would still be extremely good without him.
D) ...
E) ...
F) PER is an AWFUL stat. It's a glorified counting stat. It sucks balls. It's quite honestly one of the worst stats ever created. It doesn't show effectiveness of anything. All it does is add a bunch of **** up and then average it out. If you took a player and had them put up 50 shots per game and they made 20 of those shots per game, for 40 point per game. That player would lead the league in PER if they put up even reasonable numbers in terms of steals, rebounds, etc. Because PER doesn't give a **** about efficiency. Hell, even Hollinger admits it has problems:


"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals."




PER sucks.

G) What? I don't have any idea what you're even talking about with this one.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:05 PM
It is a real stat, in the sense that it is far more telling than most every other basic and "old school" (archaic) stat. Is it flawless or a stat that should just be used on it's own and considered the be-all end-all? No. But it does have telling power. To completely write it off is just not smart. It tells more than any per game stat does when used on it's own...unless you are describing one specific characteristic of the game. To say it isn't a stat worth considering is just juvenile. But again, I agree that you can't prove anyone is better using it, which is what people often try to do.

It does tier players better than any stat there is, besides maybe win shares. And that's why people are going to use it in MVP discussions, because that's what people are doing: tiering players.



Yes. Which is why I said how I feel right now.

I don't think he'll be there at season's end because I think Chicago will finish with the 4 seed, and because I think Howard, LeBron and Durant will all make some big surges in the second half.

Fair enough.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 08:06 PM
It is a real stat, in the sense that it is far more telling than most every other basic and "old school" (archaic) stat. Is it flawless or a stat that should just be used on it's own and considered the be-all end-all? No. But it does have telling power. To completely write it off is just not smart. It tells more than any per game stat does when used on it's own...unless you are describing one specific characteristic of the game. To say it isn't a stat worth considering is just juvenile. But again, I agree that you can't prove anyone is better using it, which is what people often try to do.

It does tier players better than any stat there is, besides maybe win shares. And that's why people are going to use it in MVP discussions, because that's what people are doing: tiering players.



Yes. Which is why I said how I feel right now.

I don't think he'll be there at season's end because I think Chicago will finish with the 4 seed, and because I think Howard, LeBron and Durant will all make some big surges in the second half.

well I'll make you a deal, when someone respectable starts to use it, I will take the stat a little more seriously, but take ESPN's mvp picks right now, lebron has a higher PER and his team has a better record and yest he is still behind rose who has a lower PER and the team record isn't as good. if you ever good on DDL sometimes, the bloggers will try and defend Hollinger and the PER system to countless people, the DDL bloggers end up always losing. anyways though, I dont feel like getting all into this again.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:08 PM
DRB, the only reason LeBron is behind Rose is because he has Wade and Bosh on his team. That's literally it.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 08:09 PM
DRB, the only reason LeBron is behind Rose is because he has Wade and Bosh on his team. That's literally it.

yeah I know cause in defining the MVP, they dont go off of just personal stats, they go by what a player means to his team and so on and son.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 08:18 PM
well I'll make you a deal, when someone respectable starts to use it, I will take the stat a little more seriously, but take ESPN's mvp picks right now, lebron has a higher PER and his team has a better record and yest he is still behind rose who has a lower PER and the team record isn't as good. if you ever good on DDL sometimes, the bloggers will try and defend Hollinger and the PER system to countless people, the DDL bloggers end up always losing. anyways though, I dont feel like getting all into this again.

PER doesn't factor in everything, especially the subjective things...like how much more of an impact you have on your team because of who else is on it...or how much your team improved from this season to last...or anything like that. Like doogolas said, the voters are going to hold LeBron to a higher standard because of the team he is on...PER doesn't do that. There is more to the MVP voting than PER, and there is more to comparing players than just using PER. Like every stat, it only has telling power when people know how to interpret it properly. And again, no one stat can stand by it's lonesome and prove everything/anything. But PER does have a lot of telling power (and it does have flaws, mainly it's lack of weight attributed to defense and how it favors players who shoot more than those who don't...AKA, there is some inflation).

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:31 PM
This guy in the post above me, he's right. Puma slipper woman is the real MVP.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 08:37 PM
There something wrong with this picture:confused:

One is 1st on his team in Win shares, while the other is 3rd.

If there is a complaint about anything it is that CP3 is 10th despite leading the league in both PER and Win Shares.

JordansBulls
01-11-2011, 08:47 PM
PER sucks.

G) What? I don't have any idea what you're even talking about with this one.

PER doesn't suck at all. It is just not a stat that favors PG's. However this is why I think CP3 needs to get more recognition, because he is the only PG to lead in Win Shares or PER.

In fact, take a look at the all time greats and how often they led in PER or Win shares or Win shares per 48 minutes.

Are you telling me these guys suck?




http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3175


1)
Jordan, Kareem and Wilt have led in Win Shares 9 times each and the next closest is 5.
In the playoffs Jordan led in Win Shares 7 times and Russell 5 times. Those are the top 2 in the postseason.




2)
How crazy is it that Jordan led the league in playoff WS 7 times and only even made the finals 6 times?
I know it’s fully possible to play more games than either finalist without making the finals,
but still… Actually looking at the list again I think Jordan is the only NBA player to lead the
playoff WS without making the finals. And he did it twice.



3)
Some would argue that leading in WS in the playoffs is more
valuable (since deeper in playoffs you go the more opportunity you have to generate WS) - interestingly
16 (/58) times has the reg. season WS leader
also been PS Ws leader (MJ= 6 and Kareem 2nd with 3) - But
that player has been the league MVP only 7 of those
times (MJ 3 times, 2000 Shaq, 1983 Moses Malone, 1986 Larry Bird, and Kareem in 1980) - all
of those players went on to be finals MVP, except Kareem who was injured and a young
Magic rode Kareem’s efforts to the title and finals MVP.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.61
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Jerry West* 26.75
10. Kobe Bryant 26.12


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Pau Gasol 4.25 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 4.83 CLE
2008 NBA Kevin Garnett 4.10 BOS
2007 NBA LeBron James 3.73 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 5.39 DAL
2005 NBA Chauncey Billups 4.59 DET
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.86 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 5.94 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.81 LAL
2001 NBA Kobe Bryant 3.76 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 4.67 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 3.71 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.81 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.94 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.68 CHI
1995 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.02 ORL
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 4.28 HOU
1993 NBA Charles Barkley* 4.60 PHO
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.13 CHI
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.77 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.98 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 4.04 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.99 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.68 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 4.23 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.01 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 4.72 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 2.84 PHI
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 3.00 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 3.46 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 2.72 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 3.06 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 3.40 PHI
1976 NBA Dave Cowens* 2.71 BOS
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 3.09 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 4.69 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.02 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 3.33 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.26 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 3.19 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 4.31 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.60 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.78 PHI
1966 NBA Bill Russell* 3.25 BOS
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 3.34 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 3.75 SFW
1963 NBA Bill Russell* 2.53 BOS
1962 NBA Bill Russell* 3.60 BOS
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.99 LAL
1960 NBA Bill Russell* 2.97 BOS
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 2.04 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.72 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.66 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 2.23 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 1.84 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 3.46 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 1.97 MNL
1952 NBA George Mikan* 2.37 MNL

MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 18.46 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 20.25 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.79 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 16.11 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.33 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tim Duncan 16.45 SAS
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.81 SAS
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 14.94 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone 9.62 UTA
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 16.35 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.30 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.43 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 17.46 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 19.98 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.24 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.73 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.30 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.99 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 19.80 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 21.23 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 16.89 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.81 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 14.61 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.10 PHI
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 15.42 HOU
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.26 LAL
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.84 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38 LAL
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.70 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.81 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 17.81 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.45 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 15.15 LAL
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 14.69 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 PHI
1964-65 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.95 CIN
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 18.83 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.01 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 14.75 STL
1957-58 NBA Dolph Schayes* 13.73 SYR
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.68 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.92 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.39 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 18.30 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.33 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 16.01 PHW


MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.32
2. Magic Johnson* 23.10
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.82
4. Jerry West* 21.34
5. Shaquille O'Neal 20.13
6. Kobe Bryant 19.02
7. Julius Erving* 16.29
8. Reggie Miller 16.18
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 15.65
10. Tim Duncan 15.58



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Pau Gasol 3.18 LAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 3.68 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 2.38 NOH
2007 NBA LeBron James 2.10 CLE
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 3.81 DAL
2005 NBA Manu Ginobili 3.01 SAS
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.58 LAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 3.27 SAS
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 2.59 LAL
2001 NBA Ray Allen 3.19 MIL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.59 LAL
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 2.06 SAS
1998 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.63 CHI
1997 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.47 CHI
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.36 CHI
1995 NBA Clyde Drexler* 2.17 HOU
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.32 HOU
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.34 CHI
1992 NBA Terry Porter 2.96 POR
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 3.23 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.70 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 2.81 CHI
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.18 LAL
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.58 LAL
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 2.71 BOS
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 2.04 LAL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 3.04 BOS
1983 NBA Johnny Moore 1.77 SAS
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 1.95 PHI
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 2.43 HOU
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2.21 LAL
1979 NBA Gus Williams 1.99 SEA
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 1.39 WSB
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 2.56 PHI
1976 NBA Phil Smith 1.57 GSW
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 1.77 GSW
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.17 MIL
1973 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.27 NYK
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 2.56 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.95 MIL
1970 NBA Jerry West* 2.64 LAL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 3.23 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 3.06 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 1.83 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 2.71 LAL
1965 NBA Jerry West* 1.89 LAL
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 2.12 SFW
1963 NBA Oscar Robertson* 2.04 CIN
1962 NBA Jerry West* 2.20 LAL
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.70 LAL
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 2.01 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 1.50 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 2.58 STL
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 1.47 STL
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 1.73 PHW
1955 NBA Bill Sharman* 1.08 BOS
1954 NBA George Mikan* 1.98 MNL
1953 NBA Ernie Vandeweghe 1.00 NYK
1952 NBA Connie Simmons 1.39 NYK


MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 13.30 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 13.74 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 13.20 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 11.85 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 13.47 DAL
2004-05 NBA Amare Stoudemire 11.26 PHO
2003-04 NBA Peja Stojakovic 11.35 SAC
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 13.24 ORL
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 10.72 SAS
2000-01 NBA Ray Allen 11.49 MIL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 11.66 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 7.17 LAL
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 12.09 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 13.29 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.20 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 10.72 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 13.33 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.00 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 12.11 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.86 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.68 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 14.61 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 15.16 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 12.06 LAL
1985-86 NBA Adrian Dantley* 10.42 UTA
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 10.45 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.97 UTA
1982-83 NBA Kiki Vandeweghe 10.46 DEN
1981-82 NBA Adrian Dantley* 11.91 UTA
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 12.32 UTA
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.54 LAL
1978-79 NBA Moses Malone* 10.61 HOU
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 10.76 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 11.90 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9.82 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 12.73 BUF
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 10.92 BUF
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.37 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.31 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 11.48 LAL
1968-69 NBA Oscar Robertson* 12.23 CIN
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 11.51 CIN
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 14.83 PHI
1965-66 NBA Jerry West* 14.41 LAL
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 14.82 LAL
1963-64 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.20 CIN
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 15.96 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Oscar Robertson* 13.03 CIN
1959-60 NBA Cliff Hagan* 9.27 STL
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 11.88 NYK
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 10.16 DET
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.59 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.22 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 11.46 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.35 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.00 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 14.78 PHW

MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player


PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 31.10
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 31.67
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 29.14
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.59
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 28.06
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 28.20
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 29.44
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 30.27
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.68
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.23
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.65
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.55
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.79
1996-97 NBA Karl Malone 28.90
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 29.41
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 29.13
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 30.66
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.70
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.75
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.19
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.14
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.71
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.78
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 25.61
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 26.54
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 24.64
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 25.12
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 26.77
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.48
1979-80 NBA Julius Erving* 25.36
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.47
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.22
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.80
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.21
1974-75 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.36
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.65
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.45
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.94
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.95
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 24.64
1968-69 NBA Jerry West* 22.32
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.71
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 26.51
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.26
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.62
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.64
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.84
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.76
1960-61 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.24
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 28.04
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.19
1957-58 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.26
1956-57 NBA Bob Pettit* 28.23
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 27.34
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 25.50
1953-54 NBA George Mikan* 28.54
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 28.39
1951-52 NBA George Mikan* 26.26

Kareem led in PER 9x and Wilt 8x and MJ 7x (Tied in 1996 with D.Robinson so it could be said 8x) The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.08
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16
5. Tim Duncan 25.74
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.04

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Dwyane Wade 29.43
2009 NBA LeBron James 37.39
2008 NBA Chris Paul 30.70
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 29.57
2006 NBA Tim Duncan 30.39
2005 NBA Yao Ming 28.99
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 27.50
2003 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.61
2002 NBA Tim Duncan 31.80
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 28.67
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 30.45
1999 NBA Grant Hill 29.29
1998 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 31.00
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 29.88
1996 NBA David Robinson* 29.10
1995 NBA Kevin Johnson 27.36
1994 NBA Charles Barkley* 27.85
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.06
1992 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.24
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.04
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.90
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.95
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 28.46
1986 NBA Spud Webb 25.74
1985 NBA Michael Jordan* 24.72
1984 NBA Bernard King 27.60
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 25.72
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 22.46
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 27.65
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.91
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 26.54
1978 NBA George Gervin* 29.44
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 25.27
1975 NBA Bob McAdoo* 24.25
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28.31
1973 NBA Jerry West* 22.67
1972 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.45
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.26
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 29.39
1969 NBA Jerry West* 25.20
1968 NBA Jerry West* 25.13
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.34
1966 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 25.97
1965 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.09
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 31.22
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 26.04
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 29.62
1961 NBA Elgin Baylor* 28.55
1960 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 27.01
1959 NBA Cliff Hagan* 26.19
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 27.46
1957 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.03
1956 NBA George Yardley* 25.36
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 24.31
1954 NBA George Mikan* 33.58
1953 NBA George Mikan* 26.25
1952 NBA George Mikan* 27.61

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_yearly.html

2009-10 NBA LeBron James 0.2987 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 0.3183 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 0.2840 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2780 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2753 DAL
2004-05 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2479 DAL
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 0.2723 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 0.2617 ORL
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2615 LAL
2000-01 NBA David Robinson* 0.2457 SAS
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2830 LAL
1998-99 NBA David Robinson* 0.2607 SAS
1997-98 NBA David Robinson* 0.2691 SAS
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2829 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3174 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 0.2727 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 0.2960 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2698 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2743 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3211 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2851 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2920 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3077 CHI
1986-87 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2627 LAL
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2438 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2380 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 0.2350 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2480 PHI
1981-82 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2294 PHI
1980-81 NBA Julius Erving* 0.2311 PHI
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2266 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2186 LAL
1977-78 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2571 LAL
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2835 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2416 LAL
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 0.2416 BUF
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2495 MIL
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3225 MIL
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3399 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3256 MIL
1969-70 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2361 NYK
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 0.2268 NYK
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2551 PHI
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2851 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2751 PHI
1964-65 NBA Jerry West* 0.2611 LAL
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3251 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2641 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2857 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2395 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2445 PHW
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears 0.2562 NYK
1957-58 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2340 BOS
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 0.2595 PHW
1955-56 NBA Larry Foust 0.2639 FTW
1954-55 NBA Larry Foust 0.2823 FTW
1953-54 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2668 SYR
1952-53 NBA George Mikan* 0.2640 MNL
1951-52 NBA Al Cervi* 0.2967 SYR


Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505
2. David Robinson* 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480
4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284
6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249
7. LeBron James 0.2242
8. Tim Duncan 0.2190
9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167
10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_yearly_p.html

2010 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2912 DAL
2009 NBA LeBron James 0.3994 CLE
2008 NBA Chris Paul 0.2887 NOH
2007 NBA Amare Stoudemire 0.2690 PHO
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2634 DAL
2005 NBA Paul Pierce 0.3009 BOS
2004 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 0.2871 DAL
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 0.2792 SAS
2002 NBA Jamaal Magloire 0.2498 CHH
2001 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2602 LAL
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 0.2241 LAL
1999 NBA Marcus Camby 0.2800 NYK
1998 NBA Steve Smith 0.2688 ATL
1997 NBA Anfernee Hardaway 0.2395 ORL
1996 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3064 CHI
1995 NBA Shawn Kemp 0.2597 SEA
1994 NBA Detlef Schrempf 0.2599 SEA
1993 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2700 CHI
1992 NBA Karl Malone* 0.2198 UTA
1991 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.3325 CHI
1990 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2837 CHI
1989 NBA Michael Jordan* 0.2703 CHI
1988 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.3855 HOU
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2650 LAL
1986 NBA Magic Johnson* 0.2666 LAL
1985 NBA Sidney Moncrief 0.2169 MIL
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 0.2356 BOS
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 0.2599 PHI
1982 NBA Kevin McHale* 0.2568 BOS
1981 NBA Marques Johnson 0.2600 MIL
1980 NBA Cedric Maxwell 0.2555 BOS
1979 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2218 LAL
1978 NBA Steve Mix 0.3112 PHI
1977 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.3324 LAL
1976 NBA Bob Lanier* 0.2133 DET
1975 NBA Don Nelson 0.2094 BOS
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2971 MIL
1973 NBA Oscar Robertson* 0.2362 MIL
1972 NBA Walt Frazier* 0.2271 NYK
1971 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2711 MIL
1970 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2859 MIL
1969 NBA Jerry West* 0.2735 LAL
1968 NBA Jerry West* 0.2779 LAL
1967 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2529 PHI
1966 NBA Jerry West* 0.2374 LAL
1965 NBA Bill Russell* 0.2857 BOS
1964 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.3228 SFW
1963 NBA Bob Pettit* 0.2436 STL
1962 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2596 PHW
1961 NBA Bill Sharman* 0.2571 BOS
1960 NBA Elgin Baylor* 0.2646 MNL
1959 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.3225 BOS
1958 NBA Cliff Hagan* 0.3124 STL
1957 NBA Frank Ramsey* 0.2904 BOS
1956 NBA Paul Arizin* 0.2618 PHW
1955 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2421 SYR
1954 NBA George Mikan* 0.3912 MNL
1953 NBA George Mikan* 0.2045 MNL
1952 NBA Dolph Schayes* 0.2838 SYR

MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2287
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059
6. Tim Duncan 0.2037
7. Jerry West* 0.2031
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
9. David Robinson* 0.1992

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:50 PM
PER doesn't suck at all. It is just not a stat that favors PG's. However this is why I think CP3 needs to get more recognition, because he is the only PG to lead in Win Shares or PER.

In fact, take a look at the all time greats and how often they led in PER or Win shares or Win shares per 48 minutes.

Are you telling me these guys suck?

Interesting thing about stats JB, it's almost impossible to make one where the best players won't float to the top. Want proof? I'd bet you if you took:

((PPG/FGA)+Ast+Reb+Steals+Blocks)/81 that by 48 and boom.

The best players in the league would be near the top. In fact, I bet you Jordan would be number 1.

PER sucks. Just because it, like most stats, will put the best players near the top doesn't mean it's good. And you know what else? A giant list of **** isn't going to convince me that it is.

That number I made up would put MJ at 12.53 for his 35/8/8 season. Let's go ahead and have some fun by comparing that to... I dunno, LBJ last year:
11.84

Now let's grab a good but not superstar player, like a Carlos Boozer:
8.81

See? It's not that hard to make up stats and have them put players roughly in their place.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 08:53 PM
Interesting thing about stats JB, it's almost impossible to make one where the best players won't float to the top. Want proof? I'd bet you if you took:

((PPG/FGA)+Ast+Reb+Steals+Blocks)/Games Played

The best players in the league would be near the top. In fact, I bet you Jordan would be number 1.

PER sucks. Just because it, like most stats, will put the best players near the top doesn't mean it's good. And you know what else? A giant list of **** isn't going to convince me that it is.

What's a better stat that can tier players so well? It isn't flawless, even Hollinger admits that, but it does have telling power...

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 08:58 PM
Almost ANY stat will tier players well. It's VERY hard to make up a stat and have it NOT tier players well.

That's why stats like that suck. Cause they're pretty meaningless. They'll put guys who are great near the top, but a player with 23PER may well be better than a player with 26PER. There are far better individual stats you can use to measure how good somebody is at various things.

PER sucks because it's not much more than a bunch of random **** thrown together that will do no better a job tiering people than the stat I JUST made up.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 09:07 PM
PER doesn't suck at all. It is just not a stat that favors PG's. However this is why I think CP3 needs to get more recognition, because he is the only PG to lead in Win Shares or PER.

In fact, take a look at the all time greats and how often they led in PER or Win shares or Win shares per 48 minutes.

Are you telling me these guys suck?

yes it does JB, it does suck. here is the all time list for the top 50.

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal^ 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan^ 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11
13. Karl Malone* 23.90
14. Dirk Nowitzki^ 23.76
15. Kevin Garnett^ 23.59
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Kobe Bryant^ 23.50
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Yao Ming^ 23.04
21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Tracy McGrady^ 22.81
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Amare Stoudemire^ 22.57
25. Moses Malone* 22.31
26. Julius Erving* 21.97
27. Dolph Schayes* 21.96
28. Pau Gasol^ 21.89
29. John Stockton* 21.83
30. Elton Brand^ 21.80
31. George Gervin* 21.74
32. Dwight Howard^ 21.69
33. Bob Lanier* 21.69
34. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
35. Manu Ginobili^ 21.65
36. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.49
39. Chris Bosh^ 21.28
40. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
41. Vince Carter^ 21.09
42. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
43. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
44. Dan Issel* 20.99
45. Chris Webber 20.94
46. Allen Iverson^ 20.92
47. Carlos Boozer^ 20.81
48. Paul Pierce^ 20.80
49. John Drew 20.74
50. Bob McAdoo* 20.73

* = Hall of Fame ^ = Active


No Pippen, Isiah Thomas, and many of others. so if you wanna judge player by PER, you gonna tell me neil johnston was better then Kobe Bryant? give me a break.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 09:08 PM
Almost ANY stat will tier players well. It's VERY hard to make up a stat and have it NOT tier players well.

That's why stats like that suck. Cause they're pretty meaningless. They'll put guys who are great near the top, but a player with 23PER may well be better than a player with 26PER. There are far better individual stats you can use to measure how good somebody is at various things.

PER sucks because it's not much more than a bunch of random **** thrown together that will do no better a job tiering people than the stat I JUST made up.

I couldn't disagree more. I'll tier some guys all-time with some other stats...top 10s all time.

Games played:
Parish, Kareem, Stockton, Malone, Malone, Willis, Reggie, Clifford Robinson, Payton, Gilmore.

FG%:
Shaq, Gilmore, Mark West, Dwight, Steve Johnson, Dawkins, Donaldson, Bo Outlaw, Jeff Ruland, Kareem

Total rebounds:
Wilt, Russell, Moses, Kareem, Gilmore, Hayes, Karl, Parish, Thurmand, Bellamy

PPG:
MJ, Wilt, LeBron, Elgin, Jerry West, AI, Pettit, Oscar, Wade, Kobe

eFG%:
Shaq, Gilmore, Mark West, Dwight, Steve Johnson, Dawkins, Donaldson, Brent Barry, Bo Outloaw, Kerr

ORating:
Kerr, Miller, Paul, Magic, Stockton, Kiki Vandeweghe, Moncrief, Barkley, Dantley, Nash


Do you want me to do all the stats...because I guarantee you there is not a single stat, maybe win shares, that can tier players of all positions and all eras better than PER.


The whole nature of this discussion is flawed. I agree that no one stat tiers players well, but I don't know of any single stat that does it better than PER. Does it spit out a flawless list? No, but it gets you closer than any other single stat there is.

Luckily, most of us are smart enough to realize this...

ManRam
01-11-2011, 09:11 PM
yes it does JB, it does suck. here is the all time list for the top 50.

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal^ 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan^ 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11
13. Karl Malone* 23.90
14. Dirk Nowitzki^ 23.76
15. Kevin Garnett^ 23.59
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Kobe Bryant^ 23.50
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Yao Ming^ 23.04
21. Jerry West* 22.90
22. Tracy McGrady^ 22.81
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Amare Stoudemire^ 22.57
25. Moses Malone* 22.31
26. Julius Erving* 21.97
27. Dolph Schayes* 21.96
28. Pau Gasol^ 21.89
29. John Stockton* 21.83
30. Elton Brand^ 21.80
31. George Gervin* 21.74
32. Dwight Howard^ 21.69
33. Bob Lanier* 21.69
34. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67
35. Manu Ginobili^ 21.65
36. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.49
39. Chris Bosh^ 21.28
40. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
41. Vince Carter^ 21.09
42. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
43. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
44. Dan Issel* 20.99
45. Chris Webber 20.94
46. Allen Iverson^ 20.92
47. Carlos Boozer^ 20.81
48. Paul Pierce^ 20.80
49. John Drew 20.74
50. Bob McAdoo* 20.73

* = Hall of Fame ^ = Active


No Pippen, Isiah Thomas, and many of others. so if you wanna judge player by PER, you gonna tell me neil johnston was better then Kobe Bryant? give me a break.

A few things can easily explain for this...

Sample size will get rid of Neil Johnson. Any player who plays in the league for 4 years isn't going to be in consideration. So set a minimum games #.

Also, this obviously favors present players because they haven't had the tail ends of their careers to weigh them back down to earth yet. Guys like Vince, Bosh, Pierce, Boozer, Manu, Brand will fall as their careers go on.

But again, it's a good start, if you understand parameters.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 09:12 PM
FG% sucks.

Total Rebounds sucks.

PPG meh.

eFG% favors big men.

ORTG literally couldn't care less about defense.

It's not hard to tier guys. I made up a stat JUST now that will do it. Seriously, go ahead and try it with different guys. It'll tier them. It'll give you a GENERAL list of the best overall players. But people are using it as if 2 points of PER is some epic difference. Or as if two guys having a similar PER means they're doing as well as each other.

That's just not the case. PER is fine as a general measure of ability to a degree. But it leaves a TON to be desired.

People just quoting it and saying, "Well that player's PER isn't high enough to be talked about for MVP" is just obnoxious.

It is not a stat you can look at and say:

"Player A has 22PER
Player B has 24PER

Player B > Player A"

That is a horrific misuse of it, and because that is how people use it, guess what?

It sucks.

When a HUGE majority of people misuse a stat. It loses a lot of its potential usefulness.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 09:16 PM
and PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates blocks and steals and can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. PER gives undue weight to a player's contribution in limited minutes, or against a team's second unit, and it undervalues players who have enough diversity in their game to play starter's minutes and it rewards inefficient shooting

ManRam
01-11-2011, 09:20 PM
FG% sucks.

Total Rebounds sucks.

PPG meh.

eFG% favors big men.

ORTG literally couldn't care less about defense.

It's not hard to tier guys. I made up a stat JUST now that will do it. Seriously, go ahead and try it with different guys. It'll tier them. It'll give you a GENERAL list of the best overall players. But people are using it as if 2 points of PER is some epic difference. Or as if two guys having a similar PER means they're doing as well as each other.

That's just not the case. PER is fine as a general measure of ability to a degree. But it leaves a TON to be desired.

People just quoting it and saying, "Well that player's PER isn't high enough to be talked about for MVP" is just obnoxious.

It is not a stat you can look at and say:

"Player A has 22PER
Player B has 24PER

Player B > Player A"

That is a horrific misuse of it, and because that is how people use it, guess what?

It sucks.

When a HUGE majority of people misuse a stat. It loses a lot of its potential usefulness.

You can say that about ANY STAT though. Again, it gets you closer to where you want to be than most any other stat. If you compare a PG to a C, it's even harder to find a stat...but PER does a decent job of leveling out positions.

"Player A has 12 rebounds a game
Player B has 7 rebounds a game

Player A > Player B"

The problem is when we over rely on stats. They have a tremendous telling power, but you need to know how to use them.

But I'll ask again...what other stat does a better job, on it's lonesome, in comparing a PG to a C? I get that you don't think people should use it as the absolute determining factor, but you are crazy to think it doesn't have good telling power.

And your stat is far more flawed.

((PPG/FGA)+Ast+Reb+Steals+Blocks)/Games Played is similar to PER, sure, and PER does just throw a bunch of stats together, but the inclusion of TOs, the difference between 3s and 2s, fouls, etc. help it out.

It tries to bring a variety of stats together. I think I've shown that I don't think any stat should ever be used by itself to prove a player is better than another, but at least PER is a culmination of a few.


Wow...I can't believe I've become a defendant for PER ;)

ManRam
01-11-2011, 09:22 PM
and PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates blocks and steals and can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. PER gives undue weight to a player's contribution in limited minutes, or against a team's second unit, and it undervalues players who have enough diversity in their game to play starter's minutes and it rewards inefficient shooting

Hurray wikipedia (verbatim) ;)

But yes, it does a very poor job of throwing defense into the equation. I wish he'd revise it and try to throw a different advanced defensive stat or two in there instead.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 09:28 PM
You can say that about ANY STAT though. Again, it gets you closer to where you want to be than most any other stat. If you compare a PG to a C, it's even harder to find a stat...but PER does a decent job of leveling out positions.

"Player A has 12 rebounds a game
Player B has 7 rebounds a game

Player A > Player B"

The problem is when we over rely on stats. They have a tremendous telling power, but you need to know how to use them.

But I'll ask again...what other stat does a better job, on it's lonesome, in comparing a PG to a C? I get that you don't think people should use it as the absolute determining factor, but you are crazy to think it doesn't have good telling power.

And your stat is far more flawed.

((PPG/FGA)+Ast+Reb+Steals+Blocks)/Games Played is similar to PER, sure, and PER does just throw a bunch of stats together, but the inclusion of TOs, the difference between 3s and 2s, fouls, etc. help it out.

It tries to bring a variety of stats together. I think I've shown that I don't think any stat should ever be used by itself to prove a player is better than another, but at least PER is a culmination of a few.


Wow...I can't believe I've become a defendant for PER ;)

Wow. You're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. PER will certainly get you closer. But literally nobody ever would just say, hey, you get lot's of rebounds, you're the best.

People misuse PER. Which is why it sucks. It's a decent stat USUALLY for judging if someone does things. But people use it like it's some kind of exact science by which all players should be judged and it's not even close to that.

It's OK for, as you said, tiering. But my whole point is that it sucks because of it's INCREDIBLY gross misuse.

D Roses Bulls
01-11-2011, 09:29 PM
Hurray wikipedia (verbatim) ;)

But yes, it does a very poor job of throwing defense into the equation. I wish he'd revise it and try to throw a different advanced defensive stat or two in there instead.

hey I'm just doing what a lot of you do, google everything ;) that's why I don't use stats and dumb forumlas and judge people on here by what they google. I judge by what they say and whether or not it comes true or not. and Ive got a very good memory, so I remember quite a bit. like you were one of the few that said hedo was going to make a difference for the magic when everyone else couldn't figure out why they would want him back or thought it was a bad move.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 09:31 PM
Wow. You're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. PER will certainly get you closer. But literally nobody ever would just say, hey, you get lot's of rebounds, you're the best.

People misuse PER. Which is why it sucks. It's a decent stat USUALLY for judging if someone does things. But people use it like it's some kind of exact science by which all players should be judged and it's not even close to that.

It's OK for, as you said, tiering. But my whole point is that it sucks because of it's INCREDIBLY gross misuse.

Fair enough. Anyone who says a player is better than another player based solely on one stat isn't going to get the time of day from me. I think we can both move on now ;) We're talking in circles now.

Doogolas
01-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Fair enough. Anyone who says a player is better than another player based solely on one stat isn't going to get the time of day from me. I think we can both move on now ;) We're talking in circles now.

I concur.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 01:26 PM
See? It's not that hard to make up stats and have them put players roughly in their place.

Your stat is really flawed in regards to minutes per game and pace just to let you know. At least PER adjusts for both.

The best stat is always going to be "minutes watched", as in how many minutes have you actually watched of each player. Most people in general just look at the box scores and stat lines.

ManRam
01-12-2011, 01:59 PM
Your stat is really flawed in regards to minutes per game and pace just to let you know. At least PER adjusts for both.

The best stat is always going to be "minutes watched", as in how many minutes have you actually watched of each player. Most people in general just look at the box scores and stat lines.

Even that "stat" is flawed. If I watch 20 Magic games and 20 Net games, no matter how well Harris does, I won't ever think he's better than Nelson...especially if they post comparable stats. No one is immune from biases, whether they are aware of it or not. At least stats are bias free, as long as you fully understand what they are saying and use them to support what they actually support.

Doogolas
01-12-2011, 03:23 PM
Your stat is really flawed in regards to minutes per game and pace just to let you know. At least PER adjusts for both.

The best stat is always going to be "minutes watched", as in how many minutes have you actually watched of each player. Most people in general just look at the box scores and stat lines.

You're aware that's LITERALLY the ENTIRE point of the stat I just made up? You clearly missed a large part of the conversation.

The WHOLE point of me making up that stat was to show how, just because a stat is capable of "tiering" people, doesn't make it the end all be all of stats.

And no, minutes watched doesn't mean ****. Your personal bias will always get in the way. Hell if I went by minutes watched I'd think Derrick Rose was the best player in the NBA. Cause I've seen far and away more of him than anybody else.

The best way to judge a player is to use numerous stats to come to a conclusion. Compare them to their peers, and then make a decision.

Hell, for that matter, NBA stats paint such a great picture, if you use enough of them, that you really dont' need to watch THAT many to know what a player does. For example, I can make up this player:

23PPG 45%FG 36 3PT% 7/9FT/FTA 7AST 3.5REB

I can tell you from that the following things:

This player dominates the ball often. Most likely running the point, even if he is not the actual point guard.

Probably a solid, but not spectacular passer. Not a good rebounder, could put in more effort at that end. Obviously this is a good shooter, has a decent but not spectacular outside shot. He also drives to the hoop a lot, living mostly around the rim, hence the FTA.

In fact if somebody put up a random player's stat line it's quite possible to give a decent scouting report from it. Like if somebody put up a real player's random stat line it probably wouldn't be that difficult to tell you what that player does well/is doing well this year.

beasted86
01-12-2011, 03:42 PM
And no, minutes watched doesn't mean ****. Your personal bias will always get in the way. Hell if I went by minutes watched I'd think Derrick Rose was the best player in the NBA. Cause I've seen far and away more of him than anybody else.

Yeah, and my point is have you watched an equal amount of the guys you claim are better than him?

You can't watch 82 Bulls games and 1 Hornets game and draw the conclusion Rose is better than Chris Paul. That's my point.

If I watched 82 Bulls games and even if I'm the most homer of Bulls fans, if I watch 82 Hornets games, you have to admire and appreciate and respect talent when it's due.

Amare1
01-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I didn't read all of this but did someone actually say Derrick Rose is better than Chris Paul

beasted86
01-12-2011, 04:17 PM
I didn't read all of this but did someone actually say Derrick Rose is better than Chris Paul

No, I pray not. I just used that to make a point.

Doogolas
01-12-2011, 04:21 PM
Yeah, and my point is have you watched an equal amount of the guys you claim are better than him?

You can't watch 82 Bulls games and 1 Hornets game and draw the conclusion Rose is better than Chris Paul. That's my point.

If I watched 82 Bulls games and even if I'm the most homer of Bulls fans, if I watch 82 Hornets games, you have to admire and appreciate and respect talent when it's due.

Yes. You do. That's my point. You can't just use "minutes watched" over actual numbers.

I can tell just looking at the numbers that Paul is clearly better than Rose.

What I said was, if I used minutes watched I'd say Rose was the best player in the NBA.

I don't. I use numbers and ignore my homer-tastic instincts so that I don't sound like an ignorant *******.

Cubs Win
01-13-2011, 02:40 PM
Just curious as to what you guys think...
How many games can Dirk miss this year and still be considered for MVP? He's already missed 8 and it has definitely shown how valuable he is to the Mavs since they have gone 2-6 during his absence. But at some point missing all these games would seem to make him less valuable to me.

ManRam
01-13-2011, 03:04 PM
Just curious as to what you guys think...
How many games can Dirk miss this year and still be considered for MVP? He's already missed 8 and it has definitely shown how valuable he is to the Mavs since they have gone 2-6 during his absence. But at some point missing all these games would seem to make him less valuable to me.

I don't think he'll win it unless Dallas finishes first or second in the West. I think that matters more than a few missed games. If he comes back, and the Mavs start winning at the rate they won games at before he left, he'll have a great shot.

Cubs Win
01-13-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't think he'll win it unless Dallas finishes first or second in the West. I think that matters more than a few missed games. If he comes back, and the Mavs start winning at the rate they won games at before he left, he'll have a great shot.

Just for argument's sake, how many games do you think he can miss and still win MVP assuming the Mavs finish 2nd in the West? Because at 8, he's already missed 10% of the season pretty much.

Baller1
01-13-2011, 03:27 PM
Durant is going to slowly move up little by little all season until he's number 1 and everyone's going to wonder how the **** it happened.

ManRam
01-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Just for argument's sake, how many games do you think he can miss and still win MVP assuming the Mavs finish 2nd in the West? Because at 8, he's already missed 10% of the season pretty much.

Hmm...Games missed by recent MVP winners

LeBron: 6
LeBron: 1
Kobe: 0
Dirk: 4
Nash: 3
Nash: 7
KG: 0
Duncan: 1
Duncan: 0
Iverson: 11
Shaq: 3

That's as far back as I feel like going. It's going to require something a bit more out of the ordinary. He's really going to have to go berserk when he comes back, and like I said, at least the second seed is a must. Losing Caron could help his chances if he does play very well.

I wouldn't put my money on it...I'll say that.

JordansBulls
01-13-2011, 03:59 PM
Problem is, is if Dirk misses more time how can you give him the MVP when Durant and Lebron are also forwards. Can you give Dirk MVP and yet he is on the 2nd team all nba?

Baller1
01-13-2011, 04:17 PM
Problem is, is if Dirk misses more time how can you give him the MVP when Durant and Lebron are also forwards. Can you give Dirk MVP and yet he is on the 2nd team all nba?

Absolutely not. That wouldn't make any sense.

Cubs Win
01-13-2011, 04:39 PM
Hmm...Games missed by recent MVP winners

LeBron: 6
LeBron: 1
Kobe: 0
Dirk: 4
Nash: 3
Nash: 7
KG: 0
Duncan: 1
Duncan: 0
Iverson: 11
Shaq: 3

That's as far back as I feel like going. It's going to require something a bit more out of the ordinary. He's really going to have to go berserk when he comes back, and like I said, at least the second seed is a must. Losing Caron could help his chances if he does play very well.

I wouldn't put my money on it...I'll say that.

OK, then we seem to be on the same page. Because I think he's right now testing the limits of how many games you can miss and still win it, and according to the info you dug up, 8 would be the second highest of all those. I agree, he will have to put up some pretty incredible numbers when he's back due to missing all this time.

JordansBulls
01-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Absolutely not. That wouldn't make any sense.

It happened to Bill Russell a few times. He won 5 MVP's but only made 3 first team all nba's.

Baller1
01-14-2011, 12:55 AM
It happened to Bill Russell a few times. He won 5 MVP's but only made 3 first team all nba's.

Wow... I take it back then I guess. Just seems completely illogical.

Another ridiculously efficient performance by Durant tonight.

Raph12
01-14-2011, 03:15 AM
D12 continues to tear up the stat sheet, only to be overshadowed by the 2-headed dragon in OKC... Dwight for MVP!

Khalifa21
01-14-2011, 10:23 AM
D12 continues to tear up the stat sheet, only to be overshadowed by the 2-headed dragon in OKC... Dwight for MVP!

Dwight tears up the stat sheet... And the Magic lose.

Probably not the best time to campaign for Dwight for MVP after they lost...

Baller1
01-14-2011, 11:35 AM
It's only because he made his damn free throws last night! Thank god our team was on fire...

Minimal
01-14-2011, 01:24 PM
NBA.COM RACE TO THE MVP
Link (http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/01/14/race-to-mvp-week-12/?ls=iref:nbahpt1)

MVP standings not as important to Spurs as NBA ones

By Steve Aschburner
Posted Jan 14 2011 11:44AM

The San Antonio Spurs no longer could be ignored. Their winning had become relentless, their success imposing.

As they put serious daylight between themselves and the rest of the NBA -- their 33-6 record is the league's best, 3 ˝ games better than Boston, 4 ˝ out front of the Los Angeles Lakers in the West -- it seemed that some up-close poking and prodding was in order. Not just to determine the perennial contender's pecking order of Most Valuableness for the purposes of the Race, but to see what the Spurs think of the award and the endeavor overall.

Turns out, not much. Particularly when asked, point blank, who San Antonio's MVP is.

"Well you know I won't answer that," coach Gregg Popovich said after his team's 91-84 victory over the Bucks Wednesday at Bradley Center. "I think the team is the most valuable, really. This season especially. We get really balanced scoring -- last night [at Minnesota] was even more balanced than tonight. And I know they don't care who's scoring. It's just a matter of playing the game.

"So we don't really have MVP candidates. We don't really think in those terms."

Hmm. Nice sentiment, and it seems to be working for Popovich. But the fact is, the Spurs have had three league MVPs in their history: Tim Duncan (2002, 2003) and David Robinson (1995).

So even in the best one-for-all, all-for-one circumstances -- with Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili leading a bench corps that includes Antonio McDyess, Matt Bonner, Gary Neal, George Hill -- some poppies grow taller than others and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.

"Tony and Manu have been playing the best on the team," Duncan said.

Great. Now we were getting somewhere. Or not.

"We have guys coming off the bench who are playing really well. We need an entire team effort. So that's a great problem to have right now. We're not counting on one guy on any given night -- we're asking a bunch of guys to step up and make plays for us."

Duncan, at 34 averaging career lows in points (13.7) and rebounds (9.3), still is a commanding presence but he neither can nor is asked to dominate the way he once did. "An MVP is the person who has to do the most for his team in a winning situation," he said. "But we just have a lot of guys who are playing well on a lot of different nights. It's turned into the record that we have now, and we're not counting on one individual to get it done every night and wear somebody down."

Most outsiders have pointed to shooting guard Ginobili as San Antonio's MVP and, by default, its top league MVP candidate. The tricky part is that Ginobili ranks 25th in the NBA in scoring, 28th in assists, 19th in free-throw shooting, 39th in efficiency and 76th in field-goal percentage. He does rank eighth in steals.

But few players bring as much to their teams at both ends of the court, much of which doesn't get measured even by trendier statistics. Against the Bucks Wednesday, there were possessions when Ginobili would get a hand on the ball to disrupt one Milwaukee player's dribble and rhythm, then beat a second Buck to his spot to alter the fellow's shot. He could rotate from John Salmons to Andrew Bogut and still wind up with the defensive rebound.

In the fourth quarter, Ginobili sat down with 6:45 left, San Antonio up 79-72. By the time he returned at 2:48, the Spurs had been outscored 8-2. Yet they closed the game in a 10-4 spurt. Salmons, who had hit three shots in the middle of the quarter for seven points, managed just one long, contested (and failed) jumper the rest of the way. And it was Ginobili, with a runner in the lane, who got the Spurs cushion to 83-80.

So the committee surrounded McDyess afterward, the locker room nearly empty, and asked the question again.

"If I had to pick one person? Manu probably," the veteran forward said. "Every night he's very consistent for us. When we need big buckets, he's there to make 'em. He's quick like a cat -- he's always disrupting something. So defensively he's always there. Offensively he's always there. So he does everything."

Ah, now The Race was getting somewhere. Until it talked to Ginobili in the hallway outside.

"It's great to hear that," he said. "But the thing is, who cares who's the most valuable player on the team when you're leading the league? Nobody cares. When TD was winning MVPs, nobody cared -- we just wanted to win. In the first games of the season, I was playing well and feeling really good, so the team used me more. But in 82 games, it's going to go to Tony, it's going to go to Tim. Even Gary Neal has won many games for us. Matt Bonner. So really, nobody cares."

The 100 miles back to Race headquarters was a lot longer drive after that. But here are this week's rankings anyway:
1. Amar'e Stoudemire, Knicks (22-16)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
38 37.1 26.1 8.9 2.7 0.9 2.3 .509 .583 .776
Last Week's Rank - 1
His point totals (23, 23, 23 and 22) were more consistent than his shooting (40 percent for the week) but Stoudemire did block 10 shots on the four-game trip and beat his old pals in Phoenix. The committee expects big things vs. Sacramento Friday and a visit from those Suns on Monday.

2. LeBron James, Heat (30-11)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
40 37.9 25.4 7.0 7.2 1.4 0.4 .482 .369 .767
Last Week's Rank - 3
James has a big week statistically. His former team gets crushed by the Lakers. He turns his ankle against the Clippers and Miami loses, and he sits at Denver and the Heat loses again. There's a whole lot of value being demonstrated in his absences.

3. Derrick Rose, Bulls (25-13)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
37 37.8 24.1 4.4 8.1 1.1 0.5 .453 .374 .805
Last Week's Rank - 2
The most promising sign for Bulls fans was Rose's growing ability and willingness to take contact (rather than contort away) and get to the foul line. Less promising? Chicago's knack for losing to the Nets, the 76ers, the Bobcats … and the Pacers Friday?

4. Kobe Bryant, Lakers (29-11)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
40 33.0 25.2 5.0 4.5 1.3 0.1 .450 .324 .834
Last Week's Rank - 7
Bryant hit seven of his 17 3-point attempts and all but one of his 22 free-throw attempts as the Lakers won four more times, pushing their streak to six. He averaged 26 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.3 assists.

5. Dwight Howard, Magic (25-14)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
37 35.9 21.9 13.4 1.2 1.2 2.3 .569 .000 .587
Last Week's Rank - 6
Nothing but double-doubles lately, 62 rebounds in a 2-2 week and -- whoa, get a load of that 17-of-20 night from the foul line in the loss to Oklahoma City. Howard hit 74.3 percent for the week (26 of 35).

6. Dwyane Wade, Heat (30-11)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
39 36.4 24.9 6.5 4.3 1.4 1.0 .491 .300 .738
Last Week's Rank - 4
Wade had a Van Morrison week: Two Below 20, scoring 14 in a game that went to overtime in Milwaukee and 16 in Thursday's defeat at Denver, shooting a combined 11-of-38. Yes, he did get 65 against the Blazers and Clippers. But 25 free-throw attempts in four games is way light for this guy.

7. Kevin Durant, Thunder (27-13)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
36 39.2 28.5 6.2 3.0 1.1 1.0 .476 .341 .878
Last Week's Rank - 9
Durant moves up thanks to the Thunder's 3-0 week during which the club's beat player shot 57 percent from the field, 87 percent from the line and 50 percent from the arc. Batman got three more double-doubles (including one triple-double) from Robin, Russell Westbrook.

8. Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks (26-11)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
29 35.4 24.1 7.4 2.4 0.7 0.8 .545 .403 .879
Last Week's Rank - 5
True, a player's value becomes apparent when his team falters without him. But there also is critical mass needed for annual awards and Nowitzki's sprained right knee now has cost him almost 22 percent of the Mavericks' schedule. Thus this slide.

9. Manu Ginobili, Spurs (33-6)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
39 31.7 19.1 4.1 4.7 1.8 0.4 .446 .373 .865
Last Week's Rank - NR
This week the vocal Ginobili supporters don't even need to wave the intangibles flag. Their guy averaged 22 points, 6. 8 rebounds, 4.3 assists and 2.5 steals as the Spurs won four more.

10. Rajon Rondo, Celtics (29-9)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
27 37.5 10.6 4.4 13.4 2.5 0.2 .516 .273 .435
Last Week's Rank - 10
There are a bunch of point guards stacked up near the bottom of these rankings, including Westbrook, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Rondo gets the edge after averaging 10 assists and 3.0 steals (his seven free-throw attempts in four games might mean he's in no hurry to return to the Celtics' trainers room).

Baller1
01-14-2011, 01:44 PM
Amare lower, Kobe lower, and LeBron higher.

DaBUU
01-14-2011, 01:55 PM
the Homer in me likes te ESPN list better where DRose sits at #1. But truthfully there a bunch of guys that deserve it so far.

Amare1
01-14-2011, 02:52 PM
This is a great year to watch the mvp race just because legitimately you can make a case for like 7 different guys

alencp3
01-14-2011, 05:32 PM
Im suprised Griffin isnt on the list

ManRam
01-14-2011, 05:35 PM
I had Rose at #1 briefly, but that team is so unpredictable and inconsistent that I can't have him at #1 anymore.

I think Amare's time at the top is about to end. Knicks are the 6th seed...that's not going to get him the MVP.

I don't know who is one right now. Such a cluster**** at the top right now.

I'd love to give it to Dwight, but they're 5th place, and the team can't win seemingly when he shoots 15+ shots.

LeBron? By default? Maybe...(He's the best player, so "default" is a weird word to use).

JordansBulls
01-14-2011, 05:43 PM
Im suprised Griffin isnt on the list

:confused:

Why would he be?

AI4MVP
01-14-2011, 06:16 PM
Rondo or Rose

Baller1
01-14-2011, 06:24 PM
Durant.

sargon21
01-14-2011, 07:03 PM
Durant making a strong push.

Here's how I look it at:

Thunder ---> top 3 seed = Durant MVP
Bulls --> top 3 seed = Rose MVP
Knicks --> top 4 seed = Amare MVP
Heat --> top overall seed + crazy good #s = Lebron MVP
Magic --> top 2 seed = Dwight MVP

And again, for the record, I see Dwight winning it after all is said and done.

Minimal
01-14-2011, 07:23 PM
Prolly LeBron vs Durant in the end of the season again.

But funny how in ESPN Top 10 MVP its Westbrook and in NBA.COM Top 10 MVP its Durant

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-15-2011, 11:16 PM
Dirk is no doubt the MVP. Look at the Mavs without him.

HuRRiCaNeS324
01-15-2011, 11:18 PM
that pump fake bailed him out. Bad defense by Rose to get faked out by a player falling over himself

justinnum1
01-16-2011, 12:26 AM
Dirk is no doubt the MVP. Look at the Mavs without him.

:confused: ever here of caron butler?

D Roses Bulls
01-16-2011, 12:36 AM
rose made another case tonight. i dont wanna hear lebron is the mvp of the heat, its all wade.

Ovratd1up
01-16-2011, 12:37 AM
:confused: ever here of caron butler?

A few years back, yeah. What's he up to these days?

Red222
01-16-2011, 02:23 AM
again i will say rose

yshNYK
01-16-2011, 02:50 AM
Amare
d.rose
..........

Everyone else

what54!?
01-16-2011, 02:52 AM
rose made another case tonight. i dont wanna hear lebron is the mvp of the heat, its all wade.lebron is the MVP of the heat :p

but naw really these loses are only helping lebron's stock

Raph12
01-16-2011, 03:32 AM
According to +/-, Bosh is the most valuable, with Wade in 2nd and Lebron in last of the trio... If the Heat almost beat Chitown without LBJ (and Bosh down the stretch), that alone should remove both of them from MVP contention.

IMO it should be between Dwight, Rose, Durant and Dirk; but with the way the Heat are playing and Lebron/Wade's numbers, they'll definitely be in the running as well.

Cubs Win
01-16-2011, 03:37 AM
again i will say rose

This.

Rose.










Other people who try to play basketball like him.

sargon21
01-16-2011, 03:39 AM
Have there ever been co-mvp's?

tredigs
01-16-2011, 03:46 AM
According to +/-, Bosh is the most valuable, with Wade in 2nd and Lebron in last of the trio... If the Heat almost beat Chitown without LBJ (and Bosh down the stretch), that alone should remove both of them from MVP contention.

IMO it should be between Dwight, Rose, Durant and Dirk; but with the way the Heat are playing and Lebron/Wade's numbers, they'll definitely be in the running as well.

Do you in any way believe that Bosh is more valuable than Lebron? Don't pick and pull stats and throw out ridiculous conclusions just to try and help out Dwights MVP chances in your mind Raph... you should be better than that.

Regardless, even here (the best +/- style stat I've seen being that it involves offensive and defensive production values), Lebron ranks #1 on their team.


rose made another case tonight. i dont wanna hear lebron is the mvp of the heat, its all wade.

"It's all Wade." From a team that just got absolutely demolished by the Clippers in 'Bron's first game out of the year. Good one?

There is zero percent doubt in my mind (and realistically, anyone who objectively looks at the facts of the matter) that Lebron is both the best and most valuable player in the league. Without getting statistical (and it would be very easy), this dude is one of the best players to ever play the game, and he is in his max-prime; he is easily the MVP and best player in the league right now.

Whether or not he gets the trophy is another matter, but again, this is the MVP of the NBA.

sargon21
01-16-2011, 03:55 AM
Do you in any way believe that Bosh is more valuable than Lebron? Don't pick and pull stats and throw out ridiculous conclusions just to try and help out Dwights MVP chances in your mind Raph... you should be better than that.

Regardless, even here (the best +/- style stat I've seen being that it involves offensive and defensive production values), Lebron ranks #1 on their team.



"It's all Wade." From a team that just got absolutely demolished by the Clippers in 'Bron's first game out of the year. Good one?

There is zero percent doubt in my mind (and realistically, anyone who objectively looks at the facts of the matter) that Lebron is both the best and most valuable player in the league. Without getting statistical (and it would be very easy), this dude is one of the best players to ever play the game, and he is in his max-prime; he is easily the MVP and best player in the league right now.

Whether or not he gets the trophy is another matter, but again, this is the MVP of the NBA.

Rose is easily more valuable to his team than Lebron, great 3,000th post.

Cubs Win
01-16-2011, 03:56 AM
Rose is easily more valuable to his team than Lebron.

I don't know. Derrick Rose just likes to win...

Raph12
01-16-2011, 03:56 AM
Do you in any way believe that Bosh is more valuable than Lebron? Don't pick and pull stats and throw out ridiculous conclusions just to try and help out Dwights MVP chances in your mind Raph... you should be better than that.

Regardless, even here (the best +/- style stat I've seen being that it involves offensive and defensive production values), Lebron ranks #1 on their team.

Obviously Lebron's the best player of the 3, but Bosh maybe the most important, seeming as how he's the only big and brings a different element to the table than LBJ and Wade do.

Lebron+Wade+Bosh has a +200something +/- on the court together; without Lebron, Wade+Bosh had a +50something +/-; without Wade, Lebron+Bosh had a +20something +/- and without Bosh, Lebron+Wade had a -20something +/- (mentioned in the game against the Bucks)... LMAO I don't need to make **** up to "help out Dwight's MVP chances". I'm throwing that out there because it's legit; LBJ, Wade or Bosh do not deserve the MVP award, none of them do.

PS: What I say has no effect on the MVP rankings or any broadcasters' vote, so why the **** are you up my *** lol?

tredigs
01-16-2011, 06:19 AM
Obviously Lebron's the best player of the 3, but Bosh maybe the most important, seeming as how he's the only big and brings a different element to the table than LBJ and Wade do.

Lebron+Wade+Bosh has a +200something +/- on the court together; without Lebron, Wade+Bosh had a +50something +/-; without Wade, Lebron+Bosh had a +20something +/- and without Bosh, Lebron+Wade had a -20something +/- (mentioned in the game against the Bucks)... LMAO I don't need to make **** up to "help out Dwight's MVP chances". I'm throwing that out there because it's legit; LBJ, Wade or Bosh do not deserve the MVP award, none of them do.

PS: What I say has no effect on the MVP rankings or any broadcasters' vote, so why the **** are you up my *** lol?

Wasn't a personal attack - I just come off as a dick sometimes, you know this.

Too late on my end to get into semantics of the MVP award, but obviously it's all very subjective as to how they're going to vote. Best player in the league is MVP? Then it's Bron. Most important to their team? Arguable, but being that LBJ takes them from a non-contender to quite possibly the best team in the NBA(?), it's at the very least debatable. That jump is much harder than a player taking a team from a lower playoff seed to a top 5 seed (compare it to a bench-press progression once you reach near max, and you will see my point).

Anyway, passing out - we can look into it more next week.

Confusious
01-16-2011, 11:42 AM
Rose will get it.

sargon21
01-17-2011, 05:26 PM
D Rose, moving up the ladder.

Amare will fall if his team doesn't continue to get wins.

AI4MVP
01-17-2011, 05:32 PM
theres no way a big man who averages less then 9 boards a game should win MVP, unless his team is like the best team in the league

D1JM
01-17-2011, 07:23 PM
theres no way a big man who averages less then 9 boards a game should win MVP, unless his team is like the best team in the league

and they have some tough games coming up in this month. wouldnt be surprised if they are 2 games above .500 by the end of the month.

Minimal
01-17-2011, 07:35 PM
So here how it goes for me after this week:

1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Durant
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Deron Williams
8. Chris Paul
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Dirk Nowitzki

bovice163
01-17-2011, 07:36 PM
So here how it goes for me after this week:

1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Durant
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Deron Williams
8. Chris Paul
9. Amare Stoudamire
10. Dirk Nowitzki

Good list. Even though Bron's been hurt, I can see why he belongs there.

footballer2369
01-17-2011, 08:31 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Rose
5. Amare

Honorable: Dirk/Durant

JordansBulls
01-17-2011, 09:29 PM
No one is going to get MVP if his next best teammate production is anywhere close to his unless you are Steve Nash or Willis Reed. Take for example Magic and Kareem. When did Magic win MVP? It was when Kareem's production had fallen off and wasn't close to Magic's.
When did Shaq win MVP? It was when his production was far better than Kobe's in 2000. Which is why in 2001 and 2002 Shaq didn't finish higher than 3rd either year.
When did Hakeem win MVP? When he was far better than anyone on his team production wise.
What about David Robinson?

Even Moses Malone won it once his production was a lot better than Dr J in 1983 and because they ran away with the best record in the league, when the next closest team in the conference was 9 games back and the next closest in the league was 7 games back.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1983.html


Compare this year. Lebron's PER is 25.8 vs 31.1 last year. His WS/48 this year is .228 compared to .299 last year.

His teammate right now has a PER of 25.8 and a WS/Per 48 of .226.

That is too close in production for Lebron to get MVP of the league over his teammate.

Khalifa21
01-17-2011, 09:33 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Rose
5. Amare

Honorable: Dirk/Durant

Swap Wade for Nowitzki, then swap Nowitzki and Rose and you got yourself a good list.

Baller1
01-17-2011, 09:40 PM
The fact that the Cavs are as pathetic as they are makes LeBron #1 in my eyes.

JordansBulls
01-17-2011, 09:44 PM
The fact that the Cavs are as pathetic as they are makes LeBron #1 in my eyes.

And the Cavs had a better record than the Heat with Lebron despite Lebron playing with more stars now. So that can work to his disadvantage as well. Also MVP this season has nothing to do with the other team when they lost pretty much half their team as well.

footballer2369
01-17-2011, 09:45 PM
Swap Wade for Nowitzki, then swap Nowitzki and Rose and you got yourself a good list.

I have a couple problems with that. You can't have Lebron #1 and Wade #6 when Wade has been almost exactly as good.

I also have a problem with Rose ahead of Wade when Wade has been better and his team has been better.

JordansBulls
01-17-2011, 09:45 PM
Swap Wade for Nowitzki, then swap Nowitzki and Rose and you got yourself a good list.

Umm no way. Lebron and Wade pretty much have the same numbers. They shouldn't be separated by more than 2 spots at all.

JordansBulls
01-17-2011, 09:46 PM
I have a couple problems with that. You can't have Lebron #1 and Wade #6 when Wade has been almost exactly as good.

I also have a problem with Rose ahead of Wade when Wade has been better and his team has been better.

the Bulls missed thier 2nd best player for 16 games of the season already and now their 3rd best player for 17 games of the season.

Hell if Steve Nash can win MVP two years in a row, I don't see why Rose can't when his 2nd and 3rd best players have already missed 16 and 17 games respectively and probably around at least 20 games on the season each.

And how in the world are people saying Lebron? The guy virtually has the same stats and numbers as Wade. Not only that, but I expected the Heat to be better than 30-12. I expected them to be where San Antonio is now.

sargon21
01-17-2011, 10:10 PM
No one is going to get MVP if his next best teammate production is anywhere close to his unless you are Steve Nash or Willis Reed. Take for example Magic and Kareem. When did Magic win MVP? It was when Kareem's production had fallen off and wasn't close to Magic's.
When did Shaq win MVP? It was when his production was far better than Kobe's in 2000. Which is why in 2001 and 2002 Shaq didn't finish higher than 3rd either year.
When did Hakeem win MVP? When he was far better than anyone on his team production wise.
What about David Robinson?

Even Moses Malone won it once his production was a lot better than Dr J in 1983 and because they ran away with the best record in the league, when the next closest team in the conference was 9 games back and the next closest in the league was 7 games back.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1983.html


Compare this year. Lebron's PER is 25.8 vs 31.1 last year. His WS/48 this year is .228 compared to .299 last year.

His teammate right now has a PER of 25.8 and a WS/Per 48 of .226.

That is too close in production for Lebron to get MVP of the league over his teammate.

This.

godolphins
01-17-2011, 10:11 PM
I think it's only between Rose and Lebron

bovice163
01-17-2011, 10:12 PM
This.

JB shootin' em down. :guns:

Ovratd1up
01-17-2011, 10:51 PM
I think Dirk has to be in the convo as well.

Bullsfan22
01-17-2011, 10:56 PM
According to +/-, Bosh is the most valuable, with Wade in 2nd and Lebron in last of the trio... If the Heat almost beat Chitown without LBJ (and Bosh down the stretch), that alone should remove both of them from MVP contention.

IMO it should be between Dwight, Rose, Durant and Dirk; but with the way the Heat are playing and Lebron/Wade's numbers, they'll definitely be in the running as well.

this

sargon21
01-17-2011, 11:17 PM
I think Dirk has to be in the convo as well.

He'll be back in it once he gets a couple games under his belt.

Phool™
01-17-2011, 11:27 PM
Derrick Rose for sure. Locked up. Take it to the bank.

effen5
01-18-2011, 12:27 AM
So here how it goes for me after this week:

1. Derrick Rose
2. LeBron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Kevin Durant
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Deron Williams
8. Chris Paul
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Dirk Nowitzki

Nice list. I agree with everyhing on there.

Tony_Starks
01-18-2011, 12:29 AM
Rose deserves it the most by far but it will take the Bulls getting a 60 + win total to get it. The sports writers are biased and really put a lot of stock in record so you have to give them rock solid undeniable evidence like a big jump in win totals for an underdog to get it.

CP3 got close the other year when NO was ballin but Kobe beat him out at the end because the Lakers ended up with the best record in the West......

Bullsfan22
01-18-2011, 03:05 AM
I don't think a third year player can win it honestly. I think rose has to pay his due's just like cp3 did. if cp3 would have matched his year and not got injured he would have had an inside track. I love the way rose is playing and glad he's in the discussion but this is merely a break out year where he's entering super stardom. Guys like lebron, Dirk, Amare, and even KD (last year) has payed their due..just my opinion.

sargon21
01-18-2011, 04:09 AM
There's def. something to be said about paying your dues, but it still hard to deny what he's doing with his team.

abe_froman
01-18-2011, 05:43 AM
Rose deserves it the most by far but it will take the Bulls getting a 60 + win total to get it. The sports writers are biased and really put a lot of stock in record so you have to give them rock solid undeniable evidence like a big jump in win totals for an underdog to get it.

CP3 got close the other year when NO was ballin but Kobe beat him out at the end because the Lakers ended up with the best record in the West......

there was more to it than that,kobe was denied mvp votes unfairly for years because a great many voters didnt like him and that one was not only for the success that year but also to "right a wrong of the past".there's nothing like that hanging over anyone this year

i really do think rose is in the lead at the moment

tredigs
01-18-2011, 04:13 PM
No one is going to get MVP if his next best teammate production is anywhere close to his unless you are Steve Nash or Willis Reed. Take for example Magic and Kareem. When did Magic win MVP? It was when Kareem's production had fallen off and wasn't close to Magic's.
When did Shaq win MVP? It was when his production was far better than Kobe's in 2000. Which is why in 2001 and 2002 Shaq didn't finish higher than 3rd either year.
When did Hakeem win MVP? When he was far better than anyone on his team production wise.
What about David Robinson?

Even Moses Malone won it once his production was a lot better than Dr J in 1983 and because they ran away with the best record in the league, when the next closest team in the conference was 9 games back and the next closest in the league was 7 games back.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1983.html


Compare this year. Lebron's PER is 25.8 vs 31.1 last year. His WS/48 this year is .228 compared to .299 last year.

His teammate right now has a PER of 25.8 and a WS/Per 48 of .226.

That is too close in production for Lebron to get MVP of the league over his teammate.

And Lebron's 25.9* is #1 in the league, as opposed to D. Rose who doesn't crack the top 15. Lebron's .228 Win Shares are also good for 3rd in the league (Rose not top 15). For as much as you love those two stats, it does not spell good things for his case.

metsfanssince05
01-18-2011, 05:20 PM
1. Amar'e Stoudemire
2. Lebron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Derek Rose
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Deron Williams
9. Chris Paul
10. Kevin Durant

As a New York Knicks fan, as I right now I choose Amar'e. I am being as fair as I can be, and if you don't like it I don't care its my opinion.

Reason why I choose Amar'e Stoudemire. -

The New York Knicks for years have down right sucked.. But this season he came to the Knicks for one reason, to make them a winning team, as of right now he is succeeding with that task(22-18), we maybe in a little bit of a slump, which happens to every single team in the NBA. Amar'e is currently 2nd in the league in PPG (26.4), and 4th in the league with BPG (2.4). Amar'e has done great things in New York, he is very clutch, making a few 3 point shots with less then 15 seconds left a few times, and one against Boston if the time did not run out the Knicks would of won, and with Blocks late in games aswell. Last game against his former team the Suns, he hit a season high of 41 points, he made his team stay in the game until they all fell apart.

If we can go on a winning streak and finish the season with over 48 wins, I can see this happening.

Thats why I think right now Amar'e is #1 for MVP. ;)

Laugh at me haters :)

bovice163
01-18-2011, 05:26 PM
1. Amar'e Stoudemire
2. Lebron James
3. Dwight Howard
4. Derek Rose
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Deron Williams
9. Chris Paul
10. Kevin Durant

As a New York Knicks fan, as I right now I choose Amar'e. I am being as fair as I can be, and if you don't like it I don't care its my opinion.

Reason why I choose Amar'e Stoudemire. -

The New York Knicks for years have down right sucked.. But this season he came to the Knicks for one reason, to make them a winning team, as of right now he is succeeding with that task(22-18), we maybe in a little bit of a slump, which happens to every single team in the NBA. Amar'e is currently 2nd in the league in PPG (26.4), and 4th in the league with BPG (2.4). Amar'e has done great things in New York, he is very clutch, making a few 3 point shots with less then 15 seconds left a few times, and one against Boston if the time did not run out the Knicks would of won, and with Blocks late in games aswell. Last game against his former team the Suns, he hit a season high of 41 points, he made his team stay in the game until they all fell apart.

If we can go on a winning streak and finish the season with over 48 wins, I can see this happening.

Thats why I think right now Amar'e is #1 for MVP. ;)

Laugh at me haters :)
No laughing. Derrick Rose took his team from a borderline playoff team, to a top 3 seed in the East. LeBron makes the Heat a 60+ win team from the 48 or so they would be without him. Dwight is the reason the Magic are a perennial top 3 seed as well. Leading your team to 4 games over .500 doesn't merit an MVP award. If the Knicks start winning in the 2nd half of the season, then there might be a slight possibility Amare is the MVP.

abe_froman
01-18-2011, 05:29 PM
And Lebron's 25.9* is #1 in the league, as opposed to D. Rose who doesn't crack the top 15. Lebron's .228 Win Shares are also good for 3rd in the league (Rose not top 15). For as much as you love those two stats, it does not spell good things for his case.

here's the thing your missing.whats actually been going on,more than just the rate stats.the reason why rose is a favorite(other than the backlash lebron will get from this past summer).is that he's been the one constant on the bulls.boozer goes down,they still won;then noah goes down and they still won..through all the injuries they have kept winning at a rate that has taken most by surprise.

bklynny67
01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
No laughing. Derrick Rose took his team from a borderline playoff team, to a top 3 seed in the East. LeBron makes the Heat a 60+ win team from the 48 or so they would be without him. Dwight is the reason the Magic are a perennial top 3 seed as well. Leading your team to 4 games over .500 doesn't merit an MVP award. If the Knicks start winning in the 2nd half of the season, then there might be a slight possibility Amare is the MVP.

"NBA This Week" has Amar'e as the midseason MVP. you dont have to be a top 3 seed to win the award. someone earlier said u have to be top 2 seed to win MVP. thats just laughable. there have been players in the past that were not among the elite teams to win it, and in other sports, players who didnt even make the playoffs have won it. Amar'e could win with the Knicks getting the 6th seed. there are a lot of worthy candidates so far, but i'm just saying people should stop saying Amar'e cant win it if the Knicks are only the 6th seed. you gotta look passed just that. He's brought them back to relevance and is 3nd in the league in scoring and simply dominating. he has something like 25 straight games with at least 20 pts. if he continues this pace, people should not be surprised or pissed off that he wins it, even if the Knicks stay at the 6th seed. if u are, then u just a hater and probably just mad the top player from ur team didnt win it.

bovice163
01-18-2011, 05:36 PM
here's the thing your missing.whats actually been going on,more than just the rate stats.the reason why rose is a favorite(other than the backlash lebron will get from this past summer).is that he's been the one constant on the bulls.boozer goes down,they still won;then noah goes down and they still won..through all the injuries they have kept winning at a rate that has taken most by surprise.

This. MVP is not something that is given solely because of statistical efficiency, as many seem to think it is. (See CP3 in '08)

abe_froman
01-18-2011, 05:39 PM
This. MVP is not something that is given solely because of statistical efficiency, as many seem to think it is. (See CP3 in '08)

see i use to be an early proponent of eff stats ,still am.but i lost interest in talking it when too many became lost in that and that alone,when many stopped caring about putting them into context.when it became a replacement to watching games,following teams and not a just a supplement to it

bovice163
01-18-2011, 05:43 PM
"NBA This Week" has Amar'e as the midseason MVP. you dont have to be a top 3 seed to win the award. someone earlier said u have to be top 2 seed to win MVP. thats just laughable. there have been players in the past that were not among the elite teams to win it, and in other sports, players who didnt even make the playoffs have won it. Amar'e could win with the Knicks getting the 6th seed. there are a lot of worthy candidates so far, but i'm just saying people should stop saying Amar'e cant win it if the Knicks are only the 6th seed. you gotta look passed just that. He's brought them back to relevance and is 3nd in the league in scoring and simply dominating. he has something like 25 straight games with at least 20 pts. if he continues this pace, people should not be surprised or pissed off that he wins it, even if the Knicks stay at the 6th seed. if u are, then u just a hater and probably just mad the top player from ur team didnt win it.

You're completely right, except for the fact that Amare isn't the only one leading his teams to wins. In the past 5 seasons, the MVP award was given to a player from a top 3 seed in either the East or West. I'm just going off of track record. My other point was that the jump from a lottery team, to a playoff team is much easier than the jump from a playoff team to an elite contender. Amare is great, don't take what I'm saying as if I am not giving him credit. There are just 5 players imo right now that are more valuable to their teams than he is.

bovice163
01-18-2011, 05:45 PM
see i use to be an early proponent of eff stats ,still am.but i lost interest in talking it when too many became lost in that and that alone,when many stopped caring about putting them into context.when it became a replacement to watching games,following teams and not a just a supplement to it

Exactly. Efficiency stats are something surely taken in consideration when voting for the MVP, but they are not the end all be all deciding factor on whether or not a player wins the award.

gatkins11
01-18-2011, 06:40 PM
Right now it's between D. Rose and Nowitzki in my opinion.

tredigs
01-18-2011, 08:53 PM
here's the thing your missing.whats actually been going on,more than just the rate stats.the reason why rose is a favorite(other than the backlash lebron will get from this past summer).is that he's been the one constant on the bulls.boozer goes down,they still won;then noah goes down and they still won..through all the injuries they have kept winning at a rate that has taken most by surprise.

I'm not missing anything, I was simply responding to JB's love of PER and WinShares/48 (which are indeed probably the two most telling commonly used advanced stats to highlight dominant players and whose dominance MVP winners have often all shared) as a means of evaluating a player, and showing him that Rose is not among the leagues elite in either category. You could take it further to other advanced stats such as Offensive/Defensive rating, true-shooting%, etc. Lebron (and countless others) own D. Rose in all of them. That was my point.

Your winning argument doesn't hold much water either. If that's the case then you can just as easily look at the other side of the coin and see that when the best players in the league have gone down, their teams began losing. When Dirk went down, the Mavs went from one of the leagues hottest teams to one that is in a significant slump. Garnett (who has indeed been incredible for them this year) goes down and they go from winning 16 of 17 to just 6-4 in the 10 he missed. Lebron goes down and the Heat are completely out of sorts, losing their last 3 after taking 20 of their prior 21.

Boozer and Noah were never missing games at the same time, and either one of the two on that team is certainly strong enough to win the majority of their games. You're talking about one of the games best centers and an all-star caliber PF, not to mention the solid play at the wing from Deng. D. Rose is FAR from doing this on his own, as much as many Bulls fans are making it out to be.

He's been great, but in my opinion absolutely not the best. I know Rose is the hot-ticket item right now, but the bottom line is that it's tough to give serious #1 choice-MVP consideration to a guy who isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, especially given how truly valuable both Dirk and Lebron have proven to be for their (true contending) squads.

northsider
01-18-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm not missing anything, I was simply responding to JB's love of PER and WinShares/48 (which are indeed probably the two most telling commonly used advanced stats to highlight dominant players and whose dominance MVP winners have often all shared) as a means of evaluating a player, and showing him that Rose is not among the leagues elite in either category. You could take it further to other advanced stats such as Offensive/Defensive rating, true-shooting%, etc. Lebron (and countless others) own D. Rose in all of them. That was my point.

Your winning argument doesn't hold much water either. If that's the case then you can just as easily look at the other side of the coin and see that when the best players in the league have gone down, their teams began losing. When Dirk went down, the Mavs went from one of the leagues hottest teams to one that is in a significant slump. Garnett (who has indeed been incredible for them this year) goes down and they go from winning 16 of 17 to just 6-4 in the 10 he missed. Lebron goes down and the Heat are completely out of sorts, losing their last 3 after taking 20 of their prior 21.

Boozer and Noah were never missing games at the same time, and either one of the two on that team is certainly strong enough to win the majority of their games. You're talking about one of the games best centers and an all-star caliber PF, not to mention the solid play at the wing from Deng. D. Rose is FAR from doing this on his own, as much as many Bulls fans are making it out to be.

He's been great, but in my opinion absolutely not the best. I know Rose is the hot-ticket item right now, but the bottom line is that it's tough to give serious #1 choice-MVP consideration to a guy who isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, especially given how truly valuable both Dirk and Lebron have proven to be for their (true contending) squads.

You can say that but, your forgetting they have also barely ever been on the court at the same time either except maybe 5 or so games. No matter what he has played short on one of them almost all season. He is such an anchor to this team its unreal. No matter how you break it down or sum it up we are winning and a great and pretty obvious reason is Derrick Rose.

Baller1
01-18-2011, 10:24 PM
No laughing. Derrick Rose took his team from a borderline playoff team, to a top 3 seed in the East. LeBron makes the Heat a 60+ win team from the 48 or so they would be without him. Dwight is the reason the Magic are a perennial top 3 seed as well. Leading your team to 4 games over .500 doesn't merit an MVP award. If the Knicks start winning in the 2nd half of the season, then there might be a slight possibility Amare is the MVP.

Durant carried the Thunder to one of the greatest turnarounds in league history, that's not good enough to get the award either.

bigsams50
01-18-2011, 11:14 PM
No laughing. Derrick Rose took his team from a borderline playoff team, to a top 3 seed in the East. LeBron makes the Heat a 60+ win team from the 48 or so they would be without him. Dwight is the reason the Magic are a perennial top 3 seed as well. Leading your team to 4 games over .500 doesn't merit an MVP award. If the Knicks start winning in the 2nd half of the season, then there might be a slight possibility Amare is the MVP.

I'm Sure Boozer has nothing to do with that huh?

D1JM
01-18-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm not missing anything, I was simply responding to JB's love of PER and WinShares/48 (which are indeed probably the two most telling commonly used advanced stats to highlight dominant players and whose dominance MVP winners have often all shared) as a means of evaluating a player, and showing him that Rose is not among the leagues elite in either category. You could take it further to other advanced stats such as Offensive/Defensive rating, true-shooting%, etc. Lebron (and countless others) own D. Rose in all of them. That was my point.

Your winning argument doesn't hold much water either. If that's the case then you can just as easily look at the other side of the coin and see that when the best players in the league have gone down, their teams began losing. When Dirk went down, the Mavs went from one of the leagues hottest teams to one that is in a significant slump. Garnett (who has indeed been incredible for them this year) goes down and they go from winning 16 of 17 to just 6-4 in the 10 he missed. Lebron goes down and the Heat are completely out of sorts, losing their last 3 after taking 20 of their prior 21.

Boozer and Noah were never missing games at the same time, and either one of the two on that team is certainly strong enough to win the majority of their games. You're talking about one of the games best centers and an all-star caliber PF, not to mention the solid play at the wing from Deng. D. Rose is FAR from doing this on his own, as much as many Bulls fans are making it out to be.

He's been great, but in my opinion absolutely not the best. I know Rose is the hot-ticket item right now, but the bottom line is that it's tough to give serious #1 choice-MVP consideration to a guy who isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, especially given how truly valuable both Dirk and Lebron have proven to be for their (true contending) squads.


exactly what last three games were those? he only missed against denver and the bulls.

blueplanet
01-18-2011, 11:42 PM
Durant carried the Thunder to one of the greatest turnarounds in league history, that's not good enough to get the award either.

TRUE. Also, Wade carried his sorry *** team to the greatest turnaround in league history (From 15 wins to 43 wins; Worst record to 5th seed with arguably a worse team) AND he put up insane stats (30.2 ppg, 7.5 apg, 5 rpg, 2.2 spg, 1.3 bpg). Apparently, that was not enough to get MVP as well.

footballer2369
01-19-2011, 12:58 AM
exactly what last three games were those? he only missed against denver and the bulls.

and the end of the clippers game.

sargon21
01-19-2011, 01:11 AM
^ They were going to lose that game anyway though.

ElMarroAfamado
01-19-2011, 01:12 AM
where are all the Heat fans?
Rise Up!

D1JM
01-19-2011, 01:12 AM
and the end of the clippers game.

He finished the game and played 40 minutes.

Raph12
01-19-2011, 02:58 AM
Between Durant, Dirk, Dwight, Lebron and Rose atm...

Baller1
01-19-2011, 03:27 AM
Between Durant, Dirk, Dwight, Lebron and Rose atm...

Nope, Dirk's out as of right now. Despite it being obvious that without him the Mavs aren't good, he missed a pretty significant amount of time. However, if he can remain healthy for the entire rest of the season then he'll get back into the discussion.

JayW_1023
01-19-2011, 07:23 AM
Manu should at least be in the top 5 in my opinion, because, as stated before, he does alot of great things that don't show up in the stat sheet on both ends.

sargon21
01-19-2011, 03:44 PM
Manu - no, he's got a great team, and I don't think you can easily say that he's the leader of the team. Kind of a Lebron scenario except with less superstar talent on the team.

Baller1
01-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Manu should at least be in the top 5 in my opinion, because, as stated before, he does alot of great things that don't show up in the stat sheet on both ends.

I've been saying Manu all year, but I'm gonna have to disagree at this point. The Spurs as a team are just too good. Duncan, Parker, Hill, Jefferson, and Neal are all playing great, and although Manu has been the best I don't think he can be credited with their incredible record.

footballer2369
01-19-2011, 05:36 PM
He finished the game and played 40 minutes.

Congrats, man. Two games and finishing a game hobbled.

Your point?

tredigs
01-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Ken Berger's take on the mid-season MVP, and he's right: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14568152/midseason-awards-spurs-best-so-far-perhaps-ultimately?ttag=gen10_on_all_fb_na_txt_0001



Midseason MVP: LeBron James, Heat. Nobody, myself included, thought LeBron or Dwyane Wade could win MVP honors playing on the same team. But here's my thinking: James' impact on the Heat, combined with his absence in Cleveland, is irrefutable evidence that he's the most important and valuable talent in the league. When he's out of Miami's lineup, as has been the case recently due to an ankle injury, the Heat are far less dangerous. And you only have to look at the wreckage he left behind in Cleveland to see the flip side of his value. The Cavs (8-23) arrived at the halfway point having lost 13 straight and 23 of 24.



Lebron may indeed have the second best player in the league on his team, but without Lebron the team goes from amazing to just good (or if you wanted to look at the last two games as indication, absolutely nothing special at all).

Simply put, he's the best player on the planet. This talk of Amare or Rose being MVP is complete trash when compared to the overall talent and impact LBJ has. I have no idea how the voters will vote, but if this season was in a vacuum with no other outside knowlege of prior MVP voting or off-season decisions, I GUARANTEE that Lebron would be the runaway favorite, and so do the rest of you who are honest enough to look at his impact objectively.

Minimal
01-19-2011, 06:13 PM
Ken Berger's take on the mid-season MVP, and he's right: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14568152/midseason-awards-spurs-best-so-far-perhaps-ultimately?ttag=gen10_on_all_fb_na_txt_0001



Lebron may indeed have the second best player in the league on his team, but without Lebron the team goes from amazing to just good (or if you wanted to look at the last two games as indication, absolutely nothing special at all).

Simply put, he's the best player on the planet. This talk of Amare or Rose being MVP is complete trash when compared to the overall talent and impact LBJ has. I have no idea how the voters will vote, but if this season was in a vacuum with no other outside knowlege of prior MVP voting or off-season decisions, I GUARANTEE that Lebron would be the runaway favorite, and so do the rest of you who are honest enough to look at his impact objectively.
To be honest it's between LeBron and Rose at this moment of the season.
Rose is up there because his team is still 3rd in the East, this is due to their easy schedule lately (L25% SOS=.433), however they won only 6 out of last 10 games. I don't think they will stay for long in the top3 of the east, because Orlando and Atlanta will surpass them and that will make 5th spot for them, resulting in MVPless Rose.

tredigs
01-19-2011, 06:30 PM
To be honest it's between LeBron and Rose at this moment of the season.
Rose is up there because his team is still 3rd in the East, this is due to their easy schedule lately (L25% SOS=.433), however they won only 6 out of last 10 games. I don't think they will stay for long in the top3 of the east, because Orlando and Atlanta will surpass them and that will make 5th spot for them, resulting in MVPless Rose.

Seeding aside, he's just flat out nowhere near as elite a player as Lebron, and that should/will be taken into serious consideration. But yes, the fact that the Heat will finish with the #1 or #2 seed and the Bulls will fight for a top 4 slot doesn't help his chances either.

A significant outcome of the voting will likely come down to how unbiased the writers/analysts choose to be. If they're going to be truly objective, then once again, I see no reason why Lebron wouldn't be the frontrunner come seasons end. Come seasons end, the only other two I see challenging for that slot (again, speaking personally) are Dirk and Durant, with Wade and Rose being the other guys rounding out the top 5.

bovice163
01-19-2011, 06:34 PM
Seeding aside, he's just flat out nowhere near as elite a player as Lebron, and that should/will be taken into serious consideration. But yes, the fact that the Heat will finish with the #1 or #2 seed and the Bulls will fight for a top 4 slot doesn't help his chances either.

A significant outcome of the voting will likely come down to how unbiased the writers/analysts choose to be. If they're going to be truly objective, then once again, I see no reason why Lebron wouldn't be the frontrunner come seasons end. Come seasons end, the only other two I see challenging for that slot (again, speaking personally) are Dirk and Durant, with Wade and Rose being the other guys rounding out the top 5.

I can't argue with the fact that Rose isn't the player that LeBron is, but fighting for a top 5 seed? The Bulls have remained a top 3 seed without their 2nd and 3rd best players respectively, and the only team I see threatening the 3rd seed spot is Orlando. When Jo and Boozer come back, we will be winning a lot more ball games, considering the hardest part of our schedule was over and done with early in the season.

kobe24>lebron23
01-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Between Durant, Dirk, Dwight, Lebron and Rose atm...

Lol no kobe?? Hes had a better season then durant

And damn its funny how wade gets no credit lol he single handedly started the heats winning streak and it wasnt until recently that lebron has done the same i guess being espn's darling does help but theres no need to make a big fuzz about this it will be rose kobe and durant fighting for it in the end!

JordansBulls
01-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Ken Berger's take on the mid-season MVP, and he's right: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14568152/midseason-awards-spurs-best-so-far-perhaps-ultimately?ttag=gen10_on_all_fb_na_txt_0001



Lebron may indeed have the second best player in the league on his team, but without Lebron the team goes from amazing to just good (or if you wanted to look at the last two games as indication, absolutely nothing special at all).

Simply put, he's the best player on the planet. This talk of Amare or Rose being MVP is complete trash when compared to the overall talent and impact LBJ has. I have no idea how the voters will vote, but if this season was in a vacuum with no other outside knowlege of prior MVP voting or off-season decisions, I GUARANTEE that Lebron would be the runaway favorite, and so do the rest of you who are honest enough to look at his impact objectively.

If that is the case, then Nash wouldn't had won MVP in 2006 over Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, etc. Nor would he had won MVP over Shaq or Duncan in 2005.

D1JM
01-19-2011, 08:46 PM
Congrats, man. Two games and finishing a game hobbled.

Your point?

whats yours?


Ken Berger's take on the mid-season MVP, and he's right: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14568152/midseason-awards-spurs-best-so-far-perhaps-ultimately?ttag=gen10_on_all_fb_na_txt_0001



Lebron may indeed have the second best player in the league on his team, but without Lebron the team goes from amazing to just good (or if you wanted to look at the last two games as indication, absolutely nothing special at all).

Simply put, he's the best player on the planet. This talk of Amare or Rose being MVP is complete trash when compared to the overall talent and impact LBJ has. I have no idea how the voters will vote, but if this season was in a vacuum with no other outside knowlege of prior MVP voting or off-season decisions, I GUARANTEE that Lebron would be the runaway favorite, and so do the rest of you who are honest enough to look at his impact objectively.

then jordan should of won 10 MVP's. There was no better player than Jordan.

nastylikedwade
01-19-2011, 09:10 PM
Lebron or Wade will win it

Baller1
01-19-2011, 09:19 PM
Lol no kobe?? Hes had a better season then durant

And damn its funny how wade gets no credit lol he single handedly started the heats winning streak and it wasnt until recently that lebron has done the same i guess being espn's darling does help but theres no need to make a big fuzz about this it will be rose kobe and durant fighting for it in the end!

No, Kobe has not had the better season than Durant.

Kobe will not win the MVP this season, you can quote that if you'd like.

tredigs
01-19-2011, 09:58 PM
whats yours?



then jordan should of won 10 MVP's. There was no better player than Jordan.

There were other all-time greats in the league playing for conference leading teams winning MVP's. Rose is none of the above.

I'm over discussing this with Bulls fans, we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

_KB24_
01-19-2011, 10:06 PM
No, Kobe has not had the better season than Durant.

Kobe will not win the MVP this season, you can quote that if you'd like.

Care to explain please.

If anything you can make a better case for Westbrook than Durant this year.

footballer2369
01-20-2011, 01:11 AM
whats yours?

you made the "point" in the first place.


Care to explain please.

If anything you can make a better case for Westbrook than Durant this year.

Durant has been the more efficient scorer.

D1JM
01-20-2011, 01:14 AM
There were other all-time greats in the league playing for conference leading teams winning MVP's. Rose is none of the above.

I'm over discussing this with Bulls fans, we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

Ive never said Rose should be MVP. I was clearly pointing out to your article who says lebron should get MVP because he is the best player in the planet. Whose been bigger than MJ himself?

tredigs
01-20-2011, 01:31 AM
Ive never said Rose should be MVP. I was clearly pointing out to your article who says lebron should get MVP because he is the best player in the planet. Whose been bigger than MJ himself?

Fair enough dude. That wasn't my single point, though. It was just one of about a dozen that I (and plenty of others) are bringing up.

D. Rose is completely legit, I just can't quite respect him as a #1 MVP candidate.

D1JM
01-20-2011, 01:43 AM
Fair enough dude. That wasn't my single point, though. It was just one of about a dozen that I (and plenty of others) are bringing up.

D. Rose is completely legit, I just can't quite respect him as a #1 MVP candidate.

I respect that. However, the one thing that really pisses me off is that people have double standard on things. The knicks after this west coast trip might be a game or two from .500 and amare is still consider for mvp? People were saying that durant didnt merit MVP talk because of westbrook and that Westbrook didnt merit MVP talk because of Durant or visa versa? However, Wade having similar stats to those of Lebron still merits Lebron over durant because Westbrook is tearing it up? thats the **** that pisses me off.

Yanks All Day
01-20-2011, 02:08 AM
IMO As of now:

7) Knicks are 22-19. 3 games over .500 and a 6 seed pretty much neutralizes Amar'e's case for the MVP at the moment. 26/9/2 on 50% shooting are great numbers, but there is no way you can convince me that voters would give it to a player whose team is barely over .500.

6) With LeBron on his team, Dwyane Wade's chances of winning the MVP are affected much more than LeBron's chances are, IMO. He'll get consideration, and 25/6.5/4 are nothing to scoff at, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that the impact that taking Wade off this Heat team is anywhere near as great as taking LeBron off it. Simply put, he is not as good an all around player as LBJ, and it would take a superhuman effort or a bad injury for him to be the MVP candidate on Miami.

5) Dallas started fantastic, but with the Dirk injury and the recent slide, have fallen 8 1/2 games out of first and are in danger of being passed in the standings by OKC and/or Utah, which are 2 teams that are getting better while Dallas is hit with some injuries. Dirk's 24 and 7 on 54% shooting can only take them so far, but if they finish outside the top 2-3 in the West, it's hard to imagine Dirk winning the award.

4) Like I said, OKC is on the upswing, and no surprise that has a ton to do with Kevin Durant. You can clearly see they are playing better basketball and KD is scoring at an efficient rate. Once again, he's leading the league in scoring, but I'd like to see his shooting percentages and assists go up a bit. For all the attention he gets on the court, he could probably accidentally rack up more than 3 assists per game. Similar to Dirk, if the Thunder do not finish in the top 2-3 in the West, his chances go out the window.

3) Dwight Howard has been Orlando's rock this year. In a season where they have made 2 blockbuster trades to shake up a roster, went through rough patches, and gave away any kind of big man help to give him a breather, D12 improved his offensive arsenal and remained the best defensive player in basketball. 22/13/2 are great numbers, and as time passes, you know this Magic team will win a lot of games. They will finish in the top 3 in the East, but if Boston and/or Miami have a bit of separation between themselves and the Magic (5+ games) that deficit might be too much to help Howard's cause.

2) Derrick Rose has rarely had his team at full force. The Bulls are currently at 28-14 and 3rd in the East (although I believe they will eventually be passed by Orlando) and Rose has stepped his game up big time. 25/5/8 on 45% shooting are damn good stats, but I think it takes a top 3 finish in the East for Rose to really have a shot here.

1) As I said before, take Wade off Miami and the Heat are a damn good team still. Take LeBron off the Heat and Miami looks like the 5th best team in the East at best. You can make the case for Atlanta, Chicago, and maybe even the Knicks as being better than Miami without LBJ. If LeBron was still with Cleveland, or any other team in the NBA for that matter, and put up a line of 26/7/7 on 48% from the field, there is no debate right now. If Miami finishes with the best record in the East, he should win the MVP. He is the best all around player in basketball whose bone-headed decisions off the court and in the media make people overlook just how amazing he is on it.

sargon21
01-20-2011, 02:39 AM
Nice writeup, and I pretty much agree on everything, but I can't overlook all the evidence that JB has shown surrounding the Lebron/Wade controversy.

JordansBulls
01-20-2011, 11:07 AM
If the Mavs can get back to the 2nd seed and Dirk doesn't miss any more games I'd give it to him.

Crackadalic
01-20-2011, 06:36 PM
Not a bulls fan but the way Drose carried the bulls despite all the injuries and be a 3rd seed is amazing. He should win it IMO

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-20-2011, 11:58 PM
I don't know what your guys criteria is for MVP. Lebron, Wade, and Durant have no business being in the top 5. Especially Durant, who's own teammate has out played him. Why not put Kobe in your top 2 then? He is 4th in PER, and is the best player on the third best team in the league. That seems to be the criteria you guys are using to make your judgement. Why is he not on any of your list?

_KB24_
01-21-2011, 12:09 AM
If the Mavs can get back to the 2nd seed and Dirk doesn't miss any more games I'd give it to him.

As a lock? Don't agree with that. If Dwight could lead the Magic to the 2nd seed, that would hold more water IMO.

Red222
01-21-2011, 01:07 AM
rose

The Smurf
01-21-2011, 01:44 AM
IMO As of now:

1) As I said before, take Wade off Miami and the Heat are a damn good team still. Take LeBron off the Heat and Miami looks like the 5th best team in the East at best. You can make the case for Atlanta, Chicago, and maybe even the Knicks as being better than Miami without LBJ. If LeBron was still with Cleveland, or any other team in the NBA for that matter, and put up a line of 26/7/7 on 48% from the field, there is no debate right now. If Miami finishes with the best record in the East, he should win the MVP. He is the best all around player in basketball whose bone-headed decisions off the court and in the media make people overlook just how amazing he is on it.


This is not a valid argument. You would have drastic changes if you took just about any top player off their team. The fact that the Heat would actually still be able to compete for a playoff spot without him kind off negates his value. Chicago without Rose-8th seed at best. New York w/out Amare- non playoffs, lets go on- Mavs w/o Dirk- not good, -you get where I am going with that. The rest of your argument for Lebron is very valid. I do think, though, that there are other players in the NBA who have been of more value to their team than Lebron. . I dont think anyone has clearly defined themselves as the MVP. Amare, Lebron, Rose, Durant, Dwight are probably the top 5 right now, as you stated. Im not sure Durant's Value is quite at the same level as the other 4, but there is a lot of ball to be played. I am biased, but I will make the argument that the longer the Bulls play shorthanded, the higher the liklehood he becomes the frontrunner. He is just being forced to take on such a huge role. One that no other player is doing with success. I am not going to argue that DRose is better than Lebron. I do think, though, that he has been more valuable to the Bulls so far this year, than Lebron has been to the Heat.

flclfanman
01-21-2011, 05:01 AM
Drose still making his case after dragging his cold and injured team to a win vs. Dallas

Raph12
01-21-2011, 11:28 AM
Drose still making his case after dragging his cold and injured team to a win vs. Dallas

More like bringing them down with his 9-28 performance... He should thank god for the Mavs struggling to score and being on the 2nd of a b2b.

JordansBulls
01-21-2011, 12:56 PM
More like bringing them down with his 9-28 performance... He should thank god for the Mavs struggling to score and being on the 2nd of a b2b.

Sorry no. When you are missing your 2nd and 3rd best players and you beat an elite team and you are the only one to score in double digits, it goes to show no one can score or did show up on your team to score.

flclfanman
01-21-2011, 01:12 PM
More like bringing them down with his 9-28 performance... He should thank god for the Mavs struggling to score and being on the 2nd of a b2b.

Despite having 9 assists. His teammates shot 35+% yesterday. The second squad (with Korver and Brewer especially) were decent but the starters (Deng, Gibson, Thomas) couldn't buy a basket at times.

Next time I'll make a montage of all the wide open shots his teammates miss.

beasted86
01-21-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't get it... here's one of my main beefs with Bulls fans.

One second you guys are praising Deng saying there are a bunch of teams that want him, and he should be a viable trade option for Denver, and he's a top 10 SF in the NBA... and next second you guys are basically saying Rose has to do all the heavy lifting because Deng sucks.

Take a pick guys.

alencp3
01-21-2011, 01:35 PM
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/01/21/race-to-mvp-week-13/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Griffin enters the MVP race, its over for the nba

JordansBulls
01-21-2011, 01:41 PM
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/01/21/race-to-mvp-week-13/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1



1. Derrick Rose, Bulls (29-14)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
42 38.0 24.7 4.7 8.0 1.0 0.7 .449 .380 .813
Last Week's Rank - 3
Rose posted his first career triple-double at Memphis (22 points, 10 rebounds, 12 assists) and ranks fifth (first among guards) in points+rebounds+assists (37.3).
2. Dwight Howard, Magic (27-15)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
40 36.0 21.9 13.1 1.2 1.2 2.2 .569 .000 .587
Last Week's Rank - 5
None of the other MVP candidates on this list contributes more defensively than the Magic center. He is averaging 3.4 steals + blocks per game, while scoring at a career-high pace.
3. LeBron James, Heat (30-13)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
41 38.0 25.6 7.1 7.2 1.5 0.4 .477 .358 .771
Last Week's Rank - 2
A slow week and an unsatisfying stretch for the Heat. James, after sitting out losses at Denver and Chicago, scored 10 of his 34 points in the overtime period in Miami's defeat by Atlanta.
4. Amar'e Stoudemire, Knicks (22-19)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
41 37.2 26.4 8.8 2.6 0.9 2.3 .506 .533 .780
Last Week's Rank - 1
STAT is bearing down on the Knicks' record of 29 consecutive scoring at least 20 points – he has 26, three shy of Richie Guerin's stretch in 1961-62 -- but New York has dropped five of its last six.
5. Kobe Bryant, Lakers (31-13)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
44 33.2 25.1 5.1 4.7 1.3 0.1 .456 .315 .819
Last Week's Rank - 4
The Lakers reached the season's midpoint at 30-11, the third straight year they have won at least 30 through 41. Only San Antonio, from 2001-04, can match that over the past decade. Bryant has scored 20+ points 39 times.
6. Manu Ginobili, Spurs (36-6)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
42 31.7 19.0 4.0 4.8 1.8 0.4 .438 .364 .878
Last Week's Rank - 9
The committee was feeling very team-oriented this week, and it is impossible to ignore San Antonio's .857 winning percentage. Ginobili's Swiss Army knife-like contributions earn him best-player-on-way-best-team status.
7. Deron Williams, Jazz (27-15)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
42 38.0 22.1 3.8 9.5 1.2 0.2 .461 .382 .857
Last Week's Rank - NR
Would you trade one assist per game for 3.4 more points? That's a pretty good deal for Williams and the Jazz, because that's what he's down (9.5 assists from 10.5) and up (22.1 points from 18.7) from 2009-10.
8. Kevin Durant, Thunder (27-15)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
38 39.3 28.2 6.2 2.9 1.1 1.0 .468 .327 .884
Last Week's Rank - 7
Mail continues to pour in (OK, digitially appear) from Thunder fans who can't seem to agree on the relative value of Durant vs. Russell Westbrook. The point guard had a better week but the NBA's leading scorer (who lost 0.3 points off his average) still gets the nod here.
9. Rajon Rondo, Celtics (32-9)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
30 37.6 10.7 4.6 13.2 2.4 0.2 .522 .292 .460
Last Week's Rank - 10
See No. 6, regarding a focus on team success. Not that 33 assists to just six turnovers in three victories isn't compelling enough for Rondo. By season's end, health permitting, the point guard could rank eighth in Celtics history in assists.
10. Blake Griffin, Clippers (16-26)
G MPG PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%
42 37.4 22.6 12.8 3.4 0.7 0.6 .519 .556 .609
Last Week's Rank - NR
Uh oh, there's been a bending of the ... OK, not rules but guidelines favored by The Race. The Clippers remain underwater at 16-26 and sub-.500 teams don't often generate MVPs. But they have won 11 of 16, a midseason kick that could get them into contention for a playoff spot. And there is no denying this guy's impact. Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki would appear here, except he came back too soon and ought to shut down a bit longer.




How the **** is Lebron 3rd and Wade not even top 10 when they have pretty much the same stats???

beasted86
01-21-2011, 01:45 PM
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/01/21/race-to-mvp-week-13/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1



How the **** is Lebron 3rd and Wade not even top 10 when they have pretty much the same stats???

Because most of these guys don't use their brain.

Griffin & Rondo an MVP candidate? This is becoming a cheap laugh.

nitric
01-21-2011, 02:19 PM
More like bringing them down with his 9-28 performance... He should thank god for the Mavs struggling to score and being on the 2nd of a b2b.

:facepalm:

SteBO
01-21-2011, 02:27 PM
More like bringing them down with his 9-28 performance... He should thank god for the Mavs struggling to score and being on the 2nd of a b2b.

:facepalm::facepalm:

footballer2369
01-21-2011, 03:15 PM
:facepalm::facepalm:

Dude step back for a second away from your politically correct persona.

Since when does shooting 31% yet still shooting 29 shots qualify as "making his case". That's simply an atrocious game.

As Supreme said yesterday, the Mavs lost the game.

SteBO
01-21-2011, 03:23 PM
Dude step back for a second away from your politically correct persona.

Since when does shooting 31% yet still shooting 29 shots qualify as "making his case". That's simply an atrocious game.

As Supreme said yesterday, the Mavs lost the game.

It wasn't the best game Rose has played in recent weeks, bt he led his team to a win over an elite team without Boozer and Noah. That has to count for something.

D1JM
01-21-2011, 03:33 PM
Dude step back for a second away from your politically correct persona.

Since when does shooting 31% yet still shooting 29 shots qualify as "making his case". That's simply an atrocious game.

As Supreme said yesterday, the Mavs lost the game.

Haha, you'll never credit the bulls at all. No other player was in double digits for the bulls and our coach actually got mad at rose during half time because he had not shot enough. Hes asked to shoot. By the way the bulls play defense and that's how we won, with defense. You are looking at the number one defense in the NBA currently.

Also lebron shot 11/30 against the hawks, how is that "making a case?". Is it cuz he shot 5% better? Maybe I should save your typing since you will make the excuse that he came back from injury blah blah blah. You always seem to find an excuse for everything.

Minimal
01-21-2011, 03:43 PM
Haha, you'll never credit the bulls at all. No other player was in double digits for the bulls and our coach actually got mad at rose during half time because he had not shot enough. Hes asked to shoot. By the way the bulls play defense and that's how we won, with defense. You are looking at the number one defense in the NBA currently.

Also lebron shot 11/30 against the hawks, how is that "making a case?". Is it cuz he shot 5% better? Maybe I should save your typing since you will make the excuse that he came back from injury blah blah blah. You always seem to find an excuse for everything.
Who ****ing said it was a good game for LeBron? Noone.
And you didn't won this game with defense, the mavs sucked. If the Bulls played against the Mavs, Miami played before, you would have lost that game by around 20 points.
So just be lucky Bulls won and Rose got credit for that, despite awful shooting. Bulls haven't won that game, Mavs lost it, so there is no credit for Bulls to give after yesterdays game.

JordansBulls
01-21-2011, 03:44 PM
Who ****ing said it was a good game for LeBron? Noone.
And you didn't won this game with defense, the mavs sucked. If the Bulls played against the Mavs, Miami played before, you would have lost that game by around 20 points.
So just be lucky Bulls won and Rose got credit for that, despite awful shooting.

We also beat the Mavs in Dallas this year and without Boozer and when they had their full team. So don't pull that just because Dallas beat your guys both times this year already.

MiKE-THE-FUTURE
01-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Kevin Durant for MVP

SteBO
01-21-2011, 03:51 PM
We also beat the Mavs in Dallas this year and without Boozer and when they had their full team. So don't pull that just because Dallas beat your guys both times this year already.

The only difference in this case was Caron Butler. Doesn't matter though. Dallas isn't important to our respective teams.

Minimal
01-21-2011, 03:57 PM
We also beat the Mavs in Dallas this year and without Boozer and when they had their full team. So don't pull that just because Dallas beat your guys both times this year already.
Am I'm talking about that game in Dallas? No I'm not.
I'm talking about last game where Dallas shot around 36% from the field.
If their offense was good as it always was, they would have one that game by 20 points. No need to bring Miami or Bulls game in Dallas here.
You are one weird mod...

JordansBulls
01-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Am I'm talking about that game in Dallas? No I'm not.
I'm talking about last game where Dallas shot around 36% from the field.
If their offense was good as it always was, they would have one that game by 20 points. No need to bring Miami or Bulls game in Dallas here.
You are one weird mod...

What are you talking about? This is a MVP thread so all the season gets talked about, not one game. And Dallas shot a low fg% because we are the #1 defense in the league right now. And we don't have enough scorers when both Boozer and Noah are out which is why our last 2 games we only scored 82 points.

D1JM
01-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Who ****ing said it was a good game for LeBron? Noone.
And you didn't won this game with defense, the mavs sucked. If the Bulls played against the Mavs, Miami played before, you would have lost that game by around 20 points.
So just be lucky Bulls won and Rose got credit for that, despite awful shooting. Bulls haven't won that game, Mavs lost it, so there is no credit for Bulls to give after yesterdays game.

we swept the mavs, and we beat them yesterday without our second and third best player. But I guess for some heat fans they will never credit the bulls no matter what.

It's always, the bulls didn't win that game "___________"(insert team) lost the game.

:laugh: keep on drinking that kool aid.

Minimal
01-21-2011, 04:13 PM
What are you talking about? This is a MVP thread so all the season gets talked about, not one game. And Dallas shot a low fg% because we are the #1 defense in the league right now. And we don't have enough scorers when both Boozer and Noah are out which is why our last 2 games we only scored 82 points.
Man I was talking with DRose1JM who said we need to give Bulls credit for their last game. Do we? When team shoots 38% from the field I don't think we should, however you joined this conversation...
Miami had an awful game against Atlanta
Bulls had an awful game against Dallas
And no need to talk about defense, Dallas lost it cause of their offense.
Miami's defense is as good as Bulls defense, however they lost their matchups with Dallas, because Dallas was consistent and determined to win those games.

flclfanman
01-21-2011, 04:15 PM
I don't get it... here's one of my main beefs with Bulls fans.

One second you guys are praising Deng saying there are a bunch of teams that want him, and he should be a viable trade option for Denver, and he's a top 10 SF in the NBA... and next second you guys are basically saying Rose has to do all the heavy lifting because Deng sucks.

Take a pick guys.

I bash Deng's streakiness. When he drives to the basket off screens to get better shots his numbers are much better, but when the team is slumping (usually when we have injuries) he settles for outside shots and goes cold instantly.

To put simply, Deng is a better player when he takes smarter shots. When he doesn't he forces Rose to take more shots ( and I appreciate Rose attacking the basket for better looks)

footballer2369
01-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Haha, you'll never credit the bulls at all. No other player was in double digits for the bulls and our coach actually got mad at rose during half time because he had not shot enough. Hes asked to shoot. By the way the bulls play defense and that's how we won, with defense. You are looking at the number one defense in the NBA currently.

Also lebron shot 11/30 against the hawks, how is that "making a case?". Is it cuz he shot 5% better? Maybe I should save your typing since you will make the excuse that he came back from injury blah blah blah. You always seem to find an excuse for everything.

I can't debate with you because you're too unintelligent to stay on the same wave of conversation.

My point was that Rose's game did not help or further his MVP case.

If they won by the effort of team defense and Rose shot putridly from the field, that does not further Rose's case. If anything it suggests that his cast is supremely underrated and their defensive prowess is the most important aspect of the team's success.

And about Lebron, who was touting his last game as making his case? No one? Right. I would never be so foolish as to say a terrible game (which was better than Rose's game individually) was making his case for MVP. That said, he is much better than Rose and has made his case prior to this game.

The post was not about me or you, it was about the MVP race, so stop with the attempted personal jabs.

The long and the short of it is that you need to read what I'm saying here.

The only thing that is relevant is that Rose's last game was not a game that should improve his case in the MVP race in the slightest. If anything it should make a case against his importance to his team, which seems to be the only mythical argument keeping him afloat at the top of the race. He doesn't belong.