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View Full Version : Worst Defenders in the NBA by position that are Starters



CityofChaos
01-11-2011, 02:11 AM
Who are some bad STARTING players by position on defense?

My list:

PG: Stephen Curry
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Rudy Gay
PF: David Lee
C: Brook Lopez

BHF
01-11-2011, 02:14 AM
PG: jose calderon
SG: jose calderon
SF: jose calderon
PF: jose calderon
C: jose calderon

only player in the nba that can make a whole team suck on d

Sadds The Gr8
01-11-2011, 02:18 AM
if Calderon AND Bargnani isn't on your list then it's a fail.

Dol-Fan
01-11-2011, 02:20 AM
The Golden State Warriors with Andrea Bargnani as their starting C.

edit: I guess Dorell Wright can defend, maybe Michael Beasley or Linas Kleiza at SF.

JiffyMix88
01-11-2011, 02:37 AM
PG: jose calderon
SG: jose calderon
SF: jose calderon
PF: jose calderon
C: jose calderon

only player in the nba that can make a whole team suck on d

this

Bucsfan
01-11-2011, 02:41 AM
defense as a whole is a problem in the nba, too many players too list

Kyben36
01-11-2011, 02:57 AM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA
PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

beasted86
01-11-2011, 02:58 AM
PG: Arroyo/Calderon (tie)
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Travis Outlaw
PF: Carlos Boozer/David Lee (tie)
C:: Andrea Bargnani

xxcubs22xx
01-11-2011, 03:02 AM
Yeah Boozer goes idle sometimes, i wouldn't say he's the worse though.

But you can count on Ben Gordon at SG for worse defense

naztrack
01-11-2011, 03:18 AM
center Bargnani
power forward David Lee
small forward Rudy Gay
shooting guard Vince Carter
point guard Calderon/Fisher

kblo247
01-11-2011, 03:40 AM
center Bargnani
power forward David Lee
small forward Rudy Gay
shooting guard Vince Carter
point guard Calderon/Fisher


Disagree with your SF (Rashard Lewis) and including Fisher in a tie with Calderon when he is still world's better as a defender than Bibby, Nash, Augustin, and Nelson off the top of my head. The guy just came off a run where he limited and made Ray Allen, Steve Nash, and Deron Williams work for everything they got last summer.

AIRMAR72
01-11-2011, 03:43 AM
defense as a whole is a problem in the nba, too many players too list
i agree but its da NU era cooked by stern more points no D

Phenomenonsense
01-11-2011, 03:48 AM
Charlie V.

Meatmypet
01-11-2011, 04:14 AM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA
PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

And where are you getting this from? Gallo's defense isn't bad at all.

arkanian215
01-11-2011, 04:15 AM
SF: Travis Outlol

beasted86
01-11-2011, 04:38 AM
SF: Travis Outlol

Glad somebody agrees with this.

On a side note, is he possibly the worst starter in the NBA?

Terrible shooter, terrible defender, terrible passer, terrible IQ. Why the F is this guy a starter in this league?

Bucsfan
01-11-2011, 04:41 AM
i agree but its da NU era cooked by stern more points no D

agreed, it really is, but defense wins, thats whats sad, see the tampa bucs sb 37, wrong sport i know but it wins, its sad its all about the points u score and nothing else, or ethe best balance of both

go jazz

arkanian215
01-11-2011, 04:43 AM
Glad somebody agrees with this.

On a side note, is he possibly the worst starter in the NBA?

Terrible shooter, terrible defender, terrible passer, terrible IQ. Why the F is this guy a starter in this league?

Cuz we traded Lee and Twill and CDR. Then Morrow tore? his hammy. So Graham gets the SG spot and yeah James has a broken foot.

Rndy
01-11-2011, 04:48 AM
PF Amare not only is he bad at defense he has a trb% of 13.7

Crackadalic
01-11-2011, 04:49 AM
PF Amare not only is he bad at defense he has a trb% of 13.7

And boozer is any better?

bmac_121
01-11-2011, 05:03 AM
Mike Bibby :facepalm:

JayW_1023
01-11-2011, 07:14 AM
Mike Conley
Marco Bellinelli
Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh
Andrea Bargnani

Minimal
01-11-2011, 07:33 AM
PG: Mo Williams/Jose Calderon
SG: Kevin Martin/Vince Carter
SF: Rashard Lewis/Michael Beasley
PF: David Lee/Antawn Jamison
C:: Andrea Bargnani/Brook Lopez

kingbrentg
01-11-2011, 07:58 AM
Glad somebody agrees with this.

On a side note, is he possibly the worst starter in the NBA?

Terrible shooter, terrible defender, terrible passer, terrible IQ. Why the F is this guy a starter in this league?

Yeah, he's pretty bad. I'd say he and Keith Bogans would be pretty close for worst starter in the league.. Though I guess at least Bogans can defend a piece of cardboard. Not that I want to praise him at all.



And boozer is any better?

Actually, yeah.

I wouldn't put Amar'e as the worst defensive starting PF though.

Knicks21
01-11-2011, 09:03 AM
Yeah, he's pretty bad. I'd say he and Keith Bogans would be pretty close for worst starter in the league.. Though I guess at least Bogans can defend a piece of cardboard. Not that I want to praise him at all.




Actually, yeah.

I wouldn't put Amar'e as the worst defensive starting PF though.

I love your sig :D

bctgg27
01-11-2011, 09:04 AM
PG- Steve Nash

29$JerZ
01-11-2011, 09:07 AM
Glad somebody agrees with this.

On a side note, is he possibly the worst starter in the NBA?

Terrible shooter, terrible defender, terrible passer, terrible IQ. Why the F is this guy a starter in this league?

IT's because Miami got LeBron, NY got Amar'e, Memphis kept Gay and they needed someone :laugh2:

Swashcuff
01-11-2011, 09:31 AM
PF Amare not only is he bad at defense he has a trb% of 13.7

he's a bad defender he surely isn't bad at defense on a whole.

BklynKnicks3
01-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Pg fisher
Sg Kevin Martin
SF Keith Van horn lol
Pf D Lee sorry
C Lopez

ball4reel
01-11-2011, 10:04 AM
Amare is not the best but at least he blocks shots and moves his feet, Boozer looks like he has cement in his shoes at times

YoungOne
01-11-2011, 10:05 AM
nate could be on that list, he just not look that terrible because he plays on the celtics..

rhino17
01-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Hate to say it but Scola has to be on the list, I've never seen a player that plays so hard, yet is so terrible on the defensive end

Minimal
01-11-2011, 10:33 AM
nate could be on that list, he just not look that terrible because he plays on the celtics..
He is not a starter. If Nate can be on that list then where can be Earl Boykins?

Iron24th
01-11-2011, 11:35 AM
this

loool,this guy calderon doesn't even try to defend,it's annoying.

bahama0811
01-11-2011, 11:37 AM
Where's Melo? He should be on the majority of lists.

THE WALL
01-11-2011, 11:53 AM
where is Charlie V??

D-Leethal
01-11-2011, 11:55 AM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA
PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

Gallo is one of our smartest defenders and before his injury was first or second in the league in charges taken........he was also up there in FTA and FT% so he can get to the line with ease.......shows how much you watch him, just because he was unconscious and reigned on you guys from downtown does not mean thats all hes got.......why would Knick fans be so high on him if that was all he could do ?

Mile High Champ
01-11-2011, 12:01 PM
American continue to ignore Andrea Bargnan and clearly have not seen him play. He is actually a good one on one defender in the post but it is help game that needs a lot of work. Bargnani is not a bad one on one defender by any means.

ManRam
01-11-2011, 12:09 PM
American continue to ignore Andrea Bargnan and clearly have not seen him play. He is actually a good one on one defender in the post but it is help game that needs a lot of work. Bargnani is not a bad one on one defender by any means.

Help defense is not something you can write off for a big man. It's incredibly important. The magic defense is consistently elite because off dwight's help defense...not necessarily his one on one defense. Help defense for a guard you could write off, but not for a seven footer...it's far to important for a team's success.

Jamiecballer
01-11-2011, 12:10 PM
American continue to ignore Andrea Bargnan and clearly have not seen him play. He is actually a good one on one defender in the post but it is help game that needs a lot of work. Bargnani is not a bad one on one defender by any means.

he still has a very negative impact on the game defensively. post defense at the center position isn't nearly as important as help defense and awareness, physical play and lane intimidation.

alencp3
01-11-2011, 12:13 PM
Mike Conley
Marco Bellinelli
Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh
Andrea Bargnani

Really? There are at least 5 worse
Or i guess u dont like Italians

alencp3
01-11-2011, 12:14 PM
I came in this thread to fight someone, but good thing that no one has Griffin on their list :D

jtsunami
01-11-2011, 12:14 PM
How is Spencer Hawes not getting any consideration for C?

Nash (and it's not even close)
Nick Young/KMart
Travis Outlaw
David Lee
Hawes/Bargs

Carey
01-11-2011, 12:31 PM
defense as a whole is a problem in the nba, too many players too list

Agreed, players dont take the same pride they used to in stopping their man

prodigy
01-11-2011, 12:33 PM
Steve Nash by far.

prodigy
01-11-2011, 12:36 PM
Agreed, players dont take the same pride they used to in stopping their man


Its all about money and fame. offense makes you rich. Players don't wanna waste time learning defense.

rhino17
01-11-2011, 12:38 PM
Where's Melo? He should be on the majority of lists.

no he shouldnt

Mile High Champ
01-11-2011, 12:53 PM
Help defense is not something you can write off for a big man. It's incredibly important. The magic defense is consistently elite because off dwight's help defense...not necessarily his one on one defense. Help defense for a guard you could write off, but not for a seven footer...it's far to important for a team's success.

I agree with you 100%. I played university ball and I was a center, I know the importance. Bargnani however is still getting better with his help defense but his man to man defense is quite good. All I was really trying to say is that Bargnani is not the worst defensive center in the league. People give him an unfair label. There are a lot of guys that are terrible man defenders and help defenders.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 12:54 PM
nash
kevin martin
Rudy Gay
Zach Randolph
Bargnani ( but he wouldnt be bad if he was used in his real pf position)

CostanzaNumba0
01-11-2011, 12:54 PM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA
PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

Gallinari is a plus defender you don't watch him enough

Mile High Champ
01-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Spencer Hawes in my mind is the worst defensive center in the game today. It was a very easy decision.

CostanzaNumba0
01-11-2011, 12:57 PM
david lee is the worst defensive big man i have ever seen

WizFan3
01-11-2011, 01:00 PM
nick young

slyone_nyc
01-11-2011, 01:15 PM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA
PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

really? gallo the worst defensive sf in the league? lol at you...

Chronz
01-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Mike Conley
Marco Bellinelli
Rashard Lewis
Chris Bosh
Andrea Bargnani
Your wrong about Bosh

Sadds The Gr8
01-11-2011, 01:34 PM
I agree with you 100%. I played university ball and I was a center, I know the importance. Bargnani however is still getting better with his help defense but his man to man defense is quite good. All I was really trying to say is that Bargnani is not the worst defensive center in the league. People give him an unfair label. There are a lot of guys that are terrible man defenders and help defenders.

lol yea he is. he's THE worst help defender I've EVER SEEN. ABSOLUTE WORST

29$JerZ
01-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Wow, have anyone who put Gallo as the worst SF seen him play? He is far from bad...

Rego247
01-11-2011, 01:37 PM
I agree with you 100%. I played university ball and I was a center, I know the importance. Bargnani however is still getting better with his help defense but his man to man defense is quite good. All I was really trying to say is that Bargnani is not the worst defensive center in the league. People give him an unfair label. There are a lot of guys that are terrible man defenders and help defenders.

this.

mhc like u said, i think we see it differently cuz we watch him play everyday, therefore, we know what his capabilities are defensively. however, fans who watch maybe 2 or 3 raps games a year, tend believe that label. i would agree that he's a not a very good help side defender, but if they watch consistently they'd be surprised to how much his one on one D has improved.

bahama0811
01-11-2011, 01:39 PM
no he shouldnt

Yes, yes he should. His defense could be good but his will power to actually play defense is lacking. When he tries he's pretty damn good but he doesn't try very often.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 01:41 PM
Agreed, players dont take the same pride they used to in stopping their man
Then why are defenses so much better than every other era?


American continue to ignore Andrea Bargnan and clearly have not seen him play. He is actually a good one on one defender in the post but it is help game that needs a lot of work. Bargnani is not a bad one on one defender by any means.
I disagree, he is a poor in just about every aspect of defense and certainly FAR from good. You claim we dont watch him but I can just as easily claim you dont watch anyone else, anyone who thinks Bargs is even decent at defense doesnt analyze the game thoroughly. Besides even if true, being a bad help defender is the worst thing you could say.

F*(&"Next Year"
01-11-2011, 01:41 PM
too bad stojakovic isnt a starter anymore...

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 01:42 PM
id say this tough.
people overate defense and is insanely obsesed with defense.
Since its also something that cant be REALLY verified scientifically with stats , defense is also a good excuse to hate on players.
Sadely teh fact that the game has imploded and lost all kind of level and that now big bodys are more important than skills is not helping at all in the matter.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 01:43 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=26&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws&order_by_asc=Y

Nash
Wes Johnson
Grant Hill
Gallinari
Bargnani

For this season only, these are the starting five with the least amount of win shares defensively.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 01:44 PM
this.

mhc like u said, i think we see it differently cuz we watch him play everyday, therefore, we know what his capabilities are defensively. however, fans who watch maybe 2 or 3 raps games a year, tend believe that label. i would agree that he's a not a very good help side defender, but if they watch consistently they'd be surprised to how much his one on one D has improved.

Please tell me which defensive sequences I have missed out. Ive seen more than I would care to specifically because of the amount of Rap fans that say this. After reviewing a crap load of footage I am fully comfortable with him being labeled on here.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 01:44 PM
Then why are defenses so much better than every other era?


I disagree, he is a poor in just about every aspect of defense and certainly FAR from good. You claim we dont watch him but I can just as easily claim you dont watch anyone else, anyone who thinks Bargs is even decent at defense doesnt analyze the game thoroughly. Besides even if true, being a bad help defender is the worst thing you could say.
Problem with Andrea is he is forced to go out and deffend centers when his body is not suited for it.
In reality his best position woudl be Sf ( where he played in europe) but of course he cant match the speed of American Sfs so he is really in a bad position.
Best thing woudl be that a good Center is put at his side so he can deffend Power forwards where he woudl look better.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 01:45 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=26&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws&order_by_asc=Y

Nash
Wes Johnson
Grant Hill
Gallinari
Bargnani

For this season only, these are the starting five with the least amount of win shares defensively.
Just curious whats Paus rank among Power forwards in defensive win shares?

Draco
01-11-2011, 01:55 PM
Then why are defenses so much better than every other era?

They aren't.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Defenses arent better than in other eras, players have less offensive fundamentals.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:00 PM
Just curious whats Paus rank among Power forwards in defensive win shares?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws

#4 among PF's

cmacmath
01-11-2011, 02:03 PM
PG Nash x100000000000
SG Vince Carter
SF Ginobli
PF Boozer
C Brook Lopez

Chronz
01-11-2011, 02:05 PM
Problem with Andrea is he is forced to go out and deffend centers when his body is not suited for it.
In reality his best position woudl be Sf ( where he played in europe) but of course he cant match the speed of American Sfs so he is really in a bad position.
Best thing woudl be that a good Center is put at his side so he can deffend Power forwards where he woudl look better.
True


They aren't.
LOL cute

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:07 PM
LOL cute

My thoughts exactly about your post.

MrfadeawayJB
01-11-2011, 02:10 PM
pg: Nash
sg: v. carter
sf: lewis
pf: Bargnani
c: frye

Chronz
01-11-2011, 02:14 PM
My thoughts exactly about your post.
Yea except I actually know the trends in defensive efficiency throughout the eras, do you?

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:20 PM
Yea except I actually know the trends in defensive efficiency throughout the eras, do you?

I know that teams average more points now than in the 90s. What am I missing. Not everyone plays on Synergy, so please.. do tell.

JARVIS123
01-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Nash / rip / beasley / lee / blair.

LA_Raiders
01-11-2011, 02:26 PM
PG: Calderon
SG: VC
SF: Irk
PF: David Lee
C: Brook Lopez

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:31 PM
I know that teams average more points now than in the 90s. What am I missing. Not everyone plays on Synergy, so please.. do tell.

if that is your proof, you are going to get killed in this argument.

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:34 PM
if that is your proof, you are going to get killed in this argument.

thanks for your concern.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:36 PM
thanks for your concern.

instead of being so standoffish all the time, you should present some evidence. You are listing the most archaic stat I can think of, PPG, to define defensive efficiencies in era's. That won't hold up for a second.

faze38
01-11-2011, 02:38 PM
PG: Steve Nash- Hands down worse defender in the league!
SG: Ben Gordon
SF: Travis Outlaw
PF: Charlie Villanueva/Chris Bosh playing much better D this year but i can't let him slide for the other years!
C: Andrea Bargnani

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:40 PM
The defenses today are far better than those of yesterday (with some exceptions obviously), thanks to advanced scouting, statistical analysis, coaches having to come up with various defensive strategies due to not being able to knock the tar out of players, a slower pace meaning defenses are set now instead of running a track meet, etc.

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:40 PM
instead of being so standoffish all the time, you should present some evidence. You are listing the most archaic stat I can think of, PPG, to define defensive efficiencies in era's. That won't hold up for a second.

Or perhaps the poster who claimed "defenses are better today" could present evidence beyond presenting himself as an expert on NBA trends.

Jamiecballer
01-11-2011, 02:40 PM
this.

mhc like u said, i think we see it differently cuz we watch him play everyday, therefore, we know what his capabilities are defensively. however, fans who watch maybe 2 or 3 raps games a year, tend believe that label. i would agree that he's a not a very good help side defender, but if they watch consistently they'd be surprised to how much his one on one D has improved.

being a good post defender is 10% of being a good defender at the center position. Bargnani absolutely sucks at the other 90% of it.

people are listening to you, you guys just aren't listening to what we are saying. the amount plays that Bargnani gets posted up per game is a tiny fraction of the total defensive possessions. so kudos for being solid defensively 4 possessions a game but what about the other 50 where he is out of position, late to rotate or out of position to grab the defensive rebound?

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:41 PM
Or perhaps the poster who claimed "defenses are better today" could present evidence beyond presenting himself as an expert on NBA trends.

I am sure he will. However, if he doesn't I will for ya.

And again, using points per game? Really? I have seen better out of you. Cmon bro

You know by your theory Bill Russell is one of the worst defenders in history, right?

boozdawg
01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
only knicks fans think gallo is a good defender :rolleyes:

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:47 PM
I am sure he will. However, if he doesn't I will for ya.

And again, using points per game? Really? I have seen better out of you. Cmon bro

You know by your theory Bill Russell is one of the worst defenders in history, right?

What's wrong with PPG? I'm not comparing teams that play according to the same rules. I'm comparing teams that play by different rules. The rule changes improved offenses not defenses.

And I'm not familiar with the Bill Russell theory or much else about Russell.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
What's wrong with PPG? I'm not comparing teams that play according to the same rules. I'm comparing teams that play by different rules. The rule changes improved offenses not defenses.

And I'm not familiar with the Bill Russell theory or much else about Russell.

then you shouldnt bother comparing eras at all, if you are adding your own rules on how to compare them.

YOUR theory was, if they give up more PPG, they are a worse defense. The Russell era gave up TONS of points per game.

Draco
01-11-2011, 02:56 PM
then you shouldnt bother comparing eras at all, if you are adding your own rules on how to compare them.

YOUR theory was, if they give up more PPG, they are a worse defense. The Russell era gave up TONS of points per game.

I don't have anything to say about the Russell era. I think the rule changes favor improved offense. I suspect that players coming into the league at a younger age somehow contributes to a lower quality of defense. Coaching preparation improved via technology but that doesn't translate to better defense.

JIDsanity
01-11-2011, 03:02 PM
The defenses today are far better than those of yesterday (with some exceptions obviously), thanks to advanced scouting, statistical analysis, coaches having to come up with various defensive strategies due to not being able to knock the tar out of players, a slower pace meaning defenses are set now instead of running a track meet, etc.

Wouldn't that make players today more reliant on team defense rather than individual defense, and if that is the case wouldn't that make this list/thread irrelevant.

JIDsanity
01-11-2011, 03:05 PM
If these players are such terrible defenders isnt it up to the coaching staff, and personnel to construct a proper line up to improve the team overall defensive efficiencies?

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 03:06 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=gs&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws

#4 among PF's

Good, a link to show supposed "laker" fans every time they trie to hang thier favs boy shortcomings when whe lose in paus shouders.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 03:07 PM
I know that teams average more points now than in the 90s. What am I missing. Not everyone plays on Synergy, so please.. do tell.
So if PPG is your measurement for defensive strength then you agree that defenses havent gotten worse since we're pretty much living in the era of low scoring. PPG has continuously fallen throughout the years, I dont know #'s but Im willing to bet its comparable to some years in the 90's and certainly far lower than prior eras. So either way we can agree players havent stopped playing defense unless your of the opinion that defense was only played in the late 90's.

Defenses were getting so good and so advanced that Stern had to create new rules to find a harmonious balance. The 90's were where it all began but the 2k era took it to a whole new level. Allow me to copy and paste an old argument (sry it took awhile to google)

LG Average Efficiency Marks:

1984: 107.6
1985: 107.9
1986: 107.2
1987: 108.3
1988: 108
1989: 107.8
1990: 108.1
1991: 107.9
1992: 108.2
1993: 108.3
1994: 106.3
---------------- HC Refined
1995: 108.3
1996: 107.6
1997: 106.7
1998: 105
1999: 102.2 (Lockout)
2000: 104.1
2001: 103
2002: 104.5 (Zone allowed to promote Ball Movement)
2003: 103.6
2004: 102.9 (Teams began scheming zones in complex ways which led to numerous stars complaining)
----------------- HC Refined Again
2005: 106.1
2006: 106.2
2007: 106.5
2008: 107.5
2009: 108.3
2010: 107.6

Things were getting brutal, it wasnt for lack of offensive skill, defenses were just getting too advanced. What we are seeing now is just healthy evolution of the game, defenses were getting too good and it was killing ratings.



Or perhaps the poster who claimed "defenses are better today" could present evidence beyond presenting himself as an expert on NBA trends.
I put in as much effort into my post as those who I quote.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 03:09 PM
If these players are such terrible defenders isnt it up to the coaching staff, and personnel to construct a proper line up to improve the team overall defensive efficiencies?
Yea but when every team in the league is doing it, what then?

BuddhaMONK
01-11-2011, 03:11 PM
pg jose calderon..... actually i 'd say he's the worst defender overall in the entire league

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 03:13 PM
pg jose calderon..... actually i 'd say he's the worst defender overall in the entire league

Not at all, he does not benefit at all of the fact that NO ONE in his team plays defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws&order_by_asc=&offset=100

he still is 95 out of 200 guards more or less in deffensive win shares, wich makes him average.
if his teamates plaeyd some d he woudl be higer.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 03:14 PM
Wouldn't that make players today more reliant on team defense rather than individual defense, and if that is the case wouldn't that make this list/thread irrelevant.

Team defense is the most important skill of the individual, that its being stressed now more than ever is a testament to the defensive strength of the league. Still look at the defensive talent on the wings now adays, the midrange game has gone extinct because of it, post play has become harder to initiate without proper spacing. You didnt have these lanky 6"6- 6"9 freaks playing out on the perimeter in any other era. You had length but it was reserved for a select few( 6"3 West/ 6"11 Thurmond) , nowadays its everywhere.

Frezhnitz
01-11-2011, 03:15 PM
Pau Gosoft

Chronz
01-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Pau Gosoft

Not according to Duncan

JIDsanity
01-11-2011, 03:18 PM
Yea but when every team in the league is doing it, what then?

Evolution? If every member of every team in the league were doing their job then I would think we would see another hand checking adjustment.

I understand where some of these people are coming from as a fan, but its hard for me to place poor defense on one players shoulders, unless of course effort is lacking, and I dont feel as if any of these players that have been listed dont put forth effort on the defensive end of the court.

Draco
01-11-2011, 03:19 PM
.

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 03:21 PM
Pau Gosoft

Did you care to check the link hawkeye provided?

I guess not.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-11-2011, 03:22 PM
None of the Bucks except Maggette. Skiles has defense a lockdown.

Draco
01-11-2011, 03:31 PM
So if PPG is your measurement for defensive strength then you agree that defenses havent gotten worse since we're pretty much living in the era of low scoring. PPG has continuously fallen throughout the years, I dont know #'s but Im willing to bet its comparable to some years in the 90's and certainly far lower than prior eras. So either way we can agree players havent stopped playing defense unless your of the opinion that defense was only played in the late 90's.

where are you getting your numbers from?



Defenses were getting so good and so advanced that Stern had to create new rules to find a harmonious balance. The 90's were where it all began but the 2k era took it to a whole new level. Allow me to copy and paste an old argument (sry it took awhile to google)

Things were getting brutal, it wasnt for lack of offensive skill, defenses were just getting too advanced. What we are seeing now is just healthy evolution of the game, defenses were getting too good and it was killing ratings.

Over what years were defenses getting too advanced? You stated earlier that defenses are better now than in any other era. The kind of defense teams play now were affected by rule changes that started in the mid 90s and more or less solidified by the turn of the century. The last decade is the result of those changes. A watered down product in terms of defense.


Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

THE WALL
01-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Nash / rip / beasley / lee / blair.

1. he isn't a starter anymore 2. He's still a better defender than BG 3. Did you watch a Pistons game 2-3 years ago when Rip was in his prime? He wasn't that bad at defense

add BG to your lineup ;)

BuddhaMONK
01-11-2011, 03:41 PM
Not at all, he does not benefit at all of the fact that NO ONE in his team plays defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=dws&order_by_asc=&offset=100

he still is 95 out of 200 guards more or less in deffensive win shares, wich makes him average.
if his teamates plaeyd some d he woudl be higer.

1)julian wright, reggie evans, amir johnson, barbosa, klieza (he's decent),ed davis and derozan can all play defense.
2) well when there's no stat which actually measure defensive capability in the win share calculation (with the exception of block, and offensive rebounds). Find me a stat which tells me about everytime a player has been beaten by the person their defending, misread a play (ie. vince carter ally oop a few years back), or left their man wide open. You find that stat then you can talk. Defensive wins shares doesn't even use defensive stats, it's a awful stat to compare players. What good is leading the league in steals if you took 15 times the attempts of the next guy trying to get them (it should be in a percent like 100 successes for 200 attempts).

Here's some calderon d
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGmOlANxMig
yea sticking your arms straight up when guarding amare 4 feet from the rim is a good defensive play

Chronz
01-11-2011, 03:45 PM
My #'s are from Basketball-Reference.com, you can see each leagues efficiency rates under their season summary

Todays defenses are no more watered down than any other, if you live in an era that had to be augmented to give the offensive player more freedom yet the defensive #'s are on par with whats been routine, then that should tell you just how talented these players have gotten on that end. Without the rule changes I cringe at what would have become of this league. This reliance on spacing hasnt come about because players have gotten lazy.

My stance is that no era is significantly different than the other unless your being hyper specific like single seasons 03 vs now. But that wasnt a result of effort or desire, strictly rule changes. As the games players evolve so too must its rules.

justcallmetm
01-11-2011, 03:45 PM
This Thread should of actually been who is the better defensive players at each position would have been easier to make a list cause 80pct of the NBA don't and can't play defense. These turd nuggets for kids are only taught how to score and not play defense it the difference between todays NBA and the OLD SCHOOL NBA

LanceUpperCut
01-11-2011, 03:51 PM
Jose is ****** maybe the worst but this year being some what healthy he is better. Last year the guy was injured most of the year and had no D what so ever. I'm not a stat whore like 90% of the people here so I can't prove nothing but I'm sure some one will prove me wrong. But then again by synergy Amir Johnson was one of the best players last year so sometimes I like to just watch and make a decision.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 04:08 PM
I don't have anything to say about the Russell era. I think the rule changes favor improved offense. I suspect that players coming into the league at a younger age somehow contributes to a lower quality of defense. Coaching preparation improved via technology but that doesn't translate to better defense.



I know that teams average more points now than in the 90s. What am I missing. Not everyone plays on Synergy, so please.. do tell.

that statement you made is false. Period. If its true, than Bill Russell is a pathetic defender is my point. Basing defense on ppg is ridiculous, when there are SO many more factors involved.

As for your guess on why YOU think defense is worse now, I can't help you there. We have far more modern technology now. Do you think the scouts in the 90's had the ability to tell if a guy shot 41% if he goes 3 dribbles right, versus 47% if he goes 3 dribbles left? Nope. But we do now (Shane Battier is the ultimate example of modern defenders using the newer technology).
The older days, you just used physicality to send messages, or make crucial stops. Can't do that anymore. So now teams have to be better prepared defensively. The league has far more teams with higher defensive efficiency than it did in the 80's and 90's, that is for sure.

I get that you think the rule changes favor better offense. That is a common misconception. They do indeed help certain TYPES of players, but they also kill others.

The league is now a better defensive league in general, when speaking of trends, than it has been over the past decades.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 04:09 PM
Wouldn't that make players today more reliant on team defense rather than individual defense, and if that is the case wouldn't that make this list/thread irrelevant.

yes and no. We can still show both to a degree. Measuring individual defense is far more complicated than measuring team defense. That has always been the case.
And really, the team defense thing got us off topic.

Korman12
01-11-2011, 04:10 PM
This Thread should of actually been who is the better defensive players at each position would have been easier to make a list cause 80pct of the NBA don't and can't play defense. These turd nuggets for kids are only taught how to score and not play defense it the difference between todays NBA and the OLD SCHOOL NBA

I love how this post is right below Chronz specifically detailing that defensive effort isn't much different now than it was in any era before (post-merger).

And if you really want to talk about old school, defenses were much worse in the 60s and 70s than now.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 04:11 PM
Good, a link to show supposed "laker" fans every time they trie to hang thier favs boy shortcomings when whe lose in paus shouders.

you know supposed "Laker" fans cast any stat that shows they are wrong to the side, right? Anything that shows Kobe isn't the best at every single facet of the game is b.s., remember?

Ebbs
01-11-2011, 04:14 PM
C: Bargnani
PF: David Lee
SF: Outlaw
SG: Kevin Martin
PG: Jose Calderon

Draco
01-11-2011, 04:20 PM
that statement you made is false. Period. If its true, than Bill Russell is a pathetic defender is my point. Basing defense on ppg is ridiculous, when there are SO many more factors involved.

I'll take a look at ORtg when I get the chance. Maybe PPG isn't the best stat to use. That said, I still don't think I'm wrong about defenses being better in the 90s. Whether I can support my opinion with a statistic is another matter. I'll see what I can find.



As for your guess on why YOU think defense is worse now, I can't help you there.

No one's asking you to.



We have far more modern technology now. Do you think the scouts in the 90's had the ability to tell if a guy shot 41% if he goes 3 dribbles right, versus 47% if he goes 3 dribbles left? Nope. But we do now (Shane Battier is the ultimate example of modern defenders using the newer technology).
The older days, you just used physicality to send messages, or make crucial stops. Can't do that anymore. So now teams have to be better prepared defensively. The league has far more teams with higher defensive efficiency than it did in the 80's and 90's, that is for sure.

Disagree with your conclusion. I already acknowledged that technology helps coaches prepare their teams to play D. I don't think it translates into better D.



I get that you think the rule changes favor better offense. That is a common misconception. They do indeed help certain TYPES of players, but they also kill others.

The league is now a better defensive league in general, when speaking of trends, than it has been over the past decades.

And I get that you think the opposite of what I think.

Flash3
01-11-2011, 04:21 PM
bargnani
lopez
hedo
turner
udrih

Dee_Edge
01-11-2011, 04:23 PM
the All-NBA "where's the" Defensive team

starters:
Steve Nash
Monta Ellis
Danilo Gallinari
Dirk Nowitzki
Amar'e Stoudemire

bench:
Jose Calderon
Ben Gordon
Kyle Korver
Troy Murphy
Nenad Kristic

BuddhaMONK
01-11-2011, 04:28 PM
the All-NBA "where's the" Defensive team

starters:
Steve Nash
Monta Ellis
Danilo Gallinari
Dirk Nowitzki
Amar'e Stoudemire

bench:
Jose Calderon
Ben Gordon
Kyle Korver
Troy Murphy
Nenad Kristic

calderon would definately start over nash, atleast nash can draw charges

FinsSuperBowl
01-11-2011, 04:32 PM
pg- jose caledron
sg- Mike dunleavy
sf- Hedo Turkoloug
pf- Kevin Love
C- Barganni

Redbull
01-11-2011, 04:32 PM
PG- Steve Nash
SG- Kevin Martin
SF- Danilo Gallinari
PF- STAT
C- Bargnani

justcallmetm
01-11-2011, 04:36 PM
I love how this post is right below Chronz specifically detailing that defensive effort isn't much different now than it was in any era before (post-merger).

And if you really want to talk about old school, defenses were much worse in the 60s and 70s than now.

When i say old school im not talking no aarp status old school im talking 80's , 90's you know when hand checking was aloud not this crap where you have today. It's like what Jordan said in a interview if he was playing today he would always be in foul trouble cause he wouldn't know how to defend without contact , but he did say with todays defense in his prime he would have have avg. 40ppg or more easy nobody would have been able to stop him.

Swashcuff
01-11-2011, 04:37 PM
the All-NBA "where's the" Defensive team

starters:
Steve Nash
Monta Ellis
Danilo Gallinari
Dirk Nowitzki
Amar'e Stoudemire

bench:
Jose Calderon
Ben Gordon
Kyle Korver
Troy Murphy
Nenad Kristic

How is Amar'e on that team when he's 3 in the league in blocks per game? More than Dwight Howard currently is. There is a difference between playing good D and being a good defender. Amar'e may not be the best defender but there are certainly player's who are a lot worst than he is. The same case could be made for Monta who is actually a pretty active defender. Hell the only person you got right there is Nash.

rurichie
01-11-2011, 04:42 PM
sf: Travis outlol

worst sf ever!

zambo4president
01-11-2011, 04:48 PM
Steve Nash
Vince Carter
Mike Beez(Everytime I've watched him he basically just stands there it's hilarious)
Zach Randolph
Spencer Hawes

15carlos21
01-11-2011, 04:50 PM
PG- Jose Calderon
SG- Ben Gordon- I mean ,I ahve watched him suck, maybe he has changed, but unlikley
SF- Danillo Galinari- SRY Nicks fans, but if it wasnt for this guys shooting ability, I dont think he would be in the NBA PF- Rashad Lewis- I give this one to him, becuase he is playing out of posssion. in all honesty, I would give this one to boozer, but im to much of a homer for that
C- Bargnani

I love when ppl post about how bad a player is without actually ever watching him play...Gallo is an above average defender who often guards the best player on the other team like Melo or Kobe

mrblisterdundee
01-11-2011, 04:51 PM
PG: Jose Calderon
SG: Monta Ellis
SF: Michael Beasley
PF: Zach Randolph
C: Andrea Bargnani

Swashcuff
01-11-2011, 04:54 PM
I love when ppl post about how bad a player is without actually ever watching him play...Gallo is an above average defender who often guards the best player on the other team like Melo or Kobe

:nod:

I am not even a Knick fan but this is partly the truth. I won't say above quite yet but he is much better than these people are saying he is.

Gators123
01-11-2011, 04:58 PM
American continue to ignore Andrea Bargnan and clearly have not seen him play. He is actually a good one on one defender in the post but it is help game that needs a lot of work. Bargnani is not a bad one on one defender by any means.

He let a 36 year old Ben Wallace score a career high against him this year.

dtmagnet
01-11-2011, 05:07 PM
There are only a few players in the NBA who are actually good at defense so these lists are impossible to make.

Evolution23
01-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Rose and Boozer are terrible on D

29$JerZ
01-11-2011, 05:14 PM
:nod:

I am not even a Knick fan but this is partly the truth. I won't say above quite yet but he is much better than these people are saying he is.

He's not Bowen or Battier but he is far from a scrub on defense. I think he lead the league in drawing offensive charges before going down with the injury and we really do put him on the opposing team's best or 2nd best perimeter player.

boozdawg
01-11-2011, 05:16 PM
Rose and Boozer are terrible on D

:rolleyes:

jtsunami
01-11-2011, 05:18 PM
Rose and Boozer are terrible on D

Rose: 102 d-rating Boozer: 98 d-rating

What terrible defenders. There's not a SINGLE Knicks player that has a better d-rating than 104.

Flash3
01-11-2011, 05:21 PM
holy crap forgot andray blatche he is the worst, though i dont know if he's starting anymore.

Evolution23
01-11-2011, 05:36 PM
Rose: 102 d-rating Boozer: 98 d-rating

What terrible defenders. There's not a SINGLE Knicks player that has a better d-rating than 104.

Did I say anything about the Knicks? no I didn't. so why did u? I dont need stats to tell me who is a good defender, I can tell you who is good by watching them play.

SteveNash
01-11-2011, 05:36 PM
Derrick Rose
Monta Ellis
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson

boozdawg
01-11-2011, 05:45 PM
Raymond Felton
Toney Douglas
Landry Fields
Wilson Chandler
Amare Stoudemire

jtsunami
01-11-2011, 05:54 PM
Did I say anything about the Knicks? no I didn't. so why did u? I dont need stats to tell me who is a good defender, I can tell you who is good by watching them play.

Sig


Raymond Felton
Toney Douglas
Landry Fields
Wilson Chandler
Amare Stoudemire

:laugh:

Gram
01-11-2011, 05:56 PM
Charlie V.

Yes!

celtsballa21
01-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Jose Calderon
Ben Gordon
Michael Beasley
Channing Frye
Andrea Bargnani

BuddhaMONK
01-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Derrick Rose
Monta Ellis
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson

calderon, and nash are worse than him

Hellcrooner
01-11-2011, 06:04 PM
you know supposed "Laker" fans cast any stat that shows they are wrong to the side, right? Anything that shows Kobe isn't the best at every single facet of the game is b.s., remember?

already doing that, chek lakers forum for a good laugh at terrible excuses when confronted to the facts.

celtsballa21
01-11-2011, 06:05 PM
Derrick Rose
Monta Ellis
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson

This is the worst list that anyone could make. Al Jefferson is statistically the 16th best defender in the NBA. Kevin Love is 36th which is above many others still, and that doesn't include what he does for rebounds on defense. Kevin Durant is 26th. Monta Ellis is bad, but he is not the worst. Derrick Rose isn't great either, but he is average and is much better than most PGs.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 06:17 PM
When i say old school im not talking no aarp status old school im talking 80's , 90's you know when hand checking was aloud not this crap where you have today. It's like what Jordan said in a interview if he was playing today he would always be in foul trouble cause he wouldn't know how to defend without contact , but he did say with todays defense in his prime he would have have avg. 40ppg or more easy nobody would have been able to stop him.
The 80's? That era was littered with horrible defenders particularly at the 3.

And dont quote MJ, the guy has no business speaking about matters he knows nothing of. MJ is basically saying hed be a ****** defender because plenty of great defenders managed to avoid foul trouble in this league. He would definitely not score that much, he couldnt even score that much in a free flowing era where teams rarely played in the halfcourt (compared to today atleast).

This is like when Wilt said players dont know how to score because no one was topping 50PTS a game.

If you want to see the best defense ever played, look up teams from 2002-2004, THAT was defense at its finest. Freak athletes, Zone Defense was allowed AND HC wasnt as restricted as it is today. You cant say that about any era.

DwayneMVPwade
01-11-2011, 06:19 PM
pg Calderon
C Bargs

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 06:28 PM
I'll take a look at ORtg when I get the chance. Maybe PPG isn't the best stat to use. That said, I still don't think I'm wrong about defenses being better in the 90s. Whether I can support my opinion with a statistic is another matter. I'll see what I can find.

let me know what you find, I would be interested to see it. But make sure and include defensive ratings to go with it, or its arbitrary.

I disagree about technology not helping. My example of Battier was a perfect example. He has done so many studies on individual percentages, that he is able to at least make the player he is guarding go to his worst statistical spot a huge portion of the time. These things were not known 15 years ago.

That being said, I would assume a case could be made the other way around. Teams know where defensive player's strengths lie, and may be able to use that technology to give their players the ball in the best possible position to score in a halfcourt scenario

Hawkeye15
01-11-2011, 06:32 PM
Rose: 102 d-rating Boozer: 98 d-rating

What terrible defenders. There's not a SINGLE Knicks player that has a better d-rating than 104.

don't pay attention to Drtg. Its a team thing really. If you are on a good defensive team, your rating goes up just for being on that team.

Gators123
01-11-2011, 06:40 PM
don't pay attention to Drtg. Its a team thing really. If you are on a good defensive team, your rating goes up just for being on that team.

Yeah, I stopped putting a lot of stock into Drtg when I saw that Charlie V has the same Drtg as Battier :laugh2:

SteveNash
01-11-2011, 07:06 PM
calderon, and nash are worse than him

Nash is better. Calderon is probably worse. It's not like anyone here has the definitive list.


This is the worst list that anyone could make. Al Jefferson is statistically the 16th best defender in the NBA. Kevin Love is 36th which is above many others still, and that doesn't include what he does for rebounds on defense. Kevin Durant is 26th. Monta Ellis is bad, but he is not the worst. Derrick Rose isn't great either, but he is average and is much better than most PGs.

So apparently you are using the worst statistics someone came up with.

Draco
01-11-2011, 07:49 PM
The 80's? That era was littered with horrible defenders particularly at the 3.

And dont quote MJ, the guy has no business speaking about matters he knows nothing of. MJ is basically saying hed be a ****** defender because plenty of great defenders managed to avoid foul trouble in this league. He would definitely not score that much, he couldnt even score that much in a free flowing era where teams rarely played in the halfcourt (compared to today atleast).

This is like when Wilt said players dont know how to score because no one was topping 50PTS a game.

If you want to see the best defense ever played, look up teams from 2002-2004, THAT was defense at its finest. Freak athletes, Zone Defense was allowed AND HC wasnt as restricted as it is today. You cant say that about any era.

Nor Brown either I suppose.

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

kingbrentg
01-11-2011, 07:57 PM
I love your sig :D

Thanks. :)

RZZZA
01-11-2011, 07:57 PM
Did I say anything about the Knicks? no I didn't. so why did u? I dont need stats to tell me who is a good defender, I can tell you who is good by watching them play.

so in other words, forget objectivity, subjectivity is more important?

Draco
01-11-2011, 08:00 PM
let me know what you find, I would be interested to see it. But make sure and include defensive ratings to go with it, or its arbitrary.

They're the same number for league average. I'm looking into it.



I disagree about technology not helping. My example of Battier was a perfect example. He has done so many studies on individual percentages, that he is able to at least make the player he is guarding go to his worst statistical spot a huge portion of the time. These things were not known 15 years ago.

That being said, I would assume a case could be made the other way around. Teams know where defensive player's strengths lie, and may be able to use that technology to give their players the ball in the best possible position to score in a halfcourt scenario

I agree that players are better informed but I don't think they play as hard and the rules don't allow them to be as physical.

nightBULL
01-11-2011, 08:34 PM
The 80's? That era was littered with horrible defenders particularly at the 3.

And dont quote MJ, the guy has no business speaking about matters he knows nothing of. MJ is basically saying hed be a ****** defender because plenty of great defenders managed to avoid foul trouble in this league. He would definitely not score that much, he couldnt even score that much in a free flowing era where teams rarely played in the halfcourt (compared to today atleast).

This is like when Wilt said players dont know how to score because no one was topping 50PTS a game.

If you want to see the best defense ever played, look up teams from 2002-2004, THAT was defense at its finest. Freak athletes, Zone Defense was allowed AND HC wasnt as restricted as it is today. You cant say that about any era.

Do yourself a favor and download a full Jordan game and watch it from start to finish. I think people forget how dominant he was because all they see are highlights of dunks.

Imagine Gallinari guarding MJ... Lolz

ChiSox219
01-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Derrick Rose
Monta Ellis
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson

Rose was bad last year but is much improved, has no business being anywhere near this list with the number of poor defensive PGs.

Durant's defense was great last year, he struggled earlier this year, but again so many worse players at the position.

John Walls Era
01-11-2011, 08:48 PM
Blatche is the worst. Sometimes it seems like he just wants to get the ball back so he lets the other team score.

ChiSox219
01-11-2011, 08:49 PM
Do yourself a favor and download a full Jordan game and watch it from start to finish. I think people forget how dominant he was because all they see are highlights of dunks.

Imagine Gallinari guarding MJ... Lolz

Offense was easier in 1987 then it has been this year. So, if Jordan only scored 38 in '87, I don't think he's scoring 40+ today.

Maybe if he had a .40% three point shot...

Chronz
01-11-2011, 08:51 PM
Do yourself a favor and download a full Jordan game and watch it from start to finish. I think people forget how dominant he was because all they see are highlights of dunks.

Imagine Gallinari guarding MJ... Lolz
Do yourself a favor and download full games from that era aside from MJ's

Imagine a league FILLED with Gallos. LOLZERS

PS Dont make the mistake of thinking less PTS equals reduced dominance, MJ could very well be a better player in this environment, but it most definitely wouldnt be because of an increased scoring rate.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 08:54 PM
Nor Brown either I suppose.
Morons the lot of them, I cant explain it but too many want to romanticize the glory days. Well actually I can explain but I cant prove it

SteveNash
01-11-2011, 09:00 PM
Nor Brown either I suppose.

Yes, the college game is so physical, just ask Evan Turner how easy the NBA is.

Draco
01-11-2011, 09:00 PM
Morons the lot of them, I cant explain it but too many want to romanticize the glory days. Well actually I can explain but I cant prove it

Why would Brown think of the 90s as his glory days, he won a championship in '04, was COY in '01, and was coaching until last December.

Draco
01-11-2011, 09:02 PM
Yes, the college game is so physical, just ask Evan Turner how easy the NBA is.

let's label that one the Evan Turner theory and file it next to the Bill Russel theory. :rolleyes:

SteveNash
01-11-2011, 09:06 PM
Why would Brown think of the 90s as his glory days, he won a championship in '04, was COY in '01, and was coaching until last December.

Because players played "the right way" from before Brown was born until the mid/late 90s when the high school "punks" started skipping college and stopped playing the right way.


let's label that one the Evan Turner theory and file it next to the Bill Russel theory. :rolleyes:

What's the theory? Does it have anything to do with Simmons?

rds1488
01-11-2011, 09:12 PM
Ben Gordon the matador defense oley!

rds1488
01-11-2011, 09:16 PM
@ ChiSox209 You are nuts. Back in the 80's with Kareem, Parrish and Lambeer as centers and in the 90s with defensive centers like Hakeem and D.Robinson.. The last two decades the nba had far superior defensive teams, not even close

Chronz
01-11-2011, 09:19 PM
Why would Brown think of the 90s as his glory days, he won a championship in '04, was COY in '01, and was coaching until last December.
Oh 04 counts as the glory days too, remember he won a title BEFORE the rule changes and has failed since.

Madtown22
01-11-2011, 09:22 PM
The Timberwolves against the 3 and the last 5 minutes of every game.

LayZbone
01-11-2011, 09:25 PM
Carlos Arroyo. It's why he doesn't finish games.

Draco
01-11-2011, 09:30 PM
Oh 04 counts as the glory days too, remember he won a title BEFORE the rule changes and has failed since.

Got it.. so 04/05 is the cutoff year for opinions that matter.

Chronz
01-11-2011, 10:21 PM
Got it.. so 04/05 is the cutoff year for opinions that matter.

Apparently it is if your of the opinion that it was the year the game changed to the point where your speaking absurdities.

THE WALL
01-11-2011, 10:59 PM
He let a 36 year old Ben Wallace score a career high against him this year.

lol. :D he scored 23 points (1-1 from downtown :p)

ChiSox219
01-11-2011, 11:06 PM
@ ChiSox209 You are nuts. Back in the 80's with Kareem, Parrish and Lambeer as centers and in the 90s with defensive centers like Hakeem and D.Robinson.. The last two decades the nba had far superior defensive teams, not even close

Across the league, teams were scoring more points per possession back in 87 then they are today. Chalk it up to whatever reason you want, but it's tougher to score points today.

Not that anyone currently in the NBA could've average 38 back in the 80s.

Kakaroach
01-11-2011, 11:10 PM
Mehmet Okur could have vied for this last year for sure.

jasonbird
01-12-2011, 09:59 PM
Let me guess,Vince Carter will count one