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poleandreel
01-08-2011, 08:37 AM
FOR EVERYONE THAT THINKS KOBE IS SO CLUTCH: PLEASE READ

In last night’s Spurs-Lakers game, Kobe Bryant got the better of Kobe Bryant again. When his team desperately needed him, he gave them a bit too much of him. It happens.

Credit to the San Antonio defense, offense, credit to DeJuan Blair’s ebullient flair. But, it’s impossible to watch a live game and absorb all the complexities of ten jerseys, tugging TV pixels in different directions. Frankly, I just funneled an attention span to the Kobe show.

Bryant started off shaky, out of rhythm. All seemed lost when he sauntered in with nine minutes left, Lakers down by double digits. In a rebuke to offensive sets, Kobe flooded the hoop. A deep contested two, a contested three, another three. Suddenly, the Lakers were tilting the see-saw. Suddenly, frightened announcers were sputtering: “He will score every time he gets the ball! Every time!”

(Uh-oh! Here it comes! Lava’s about to shoot out of his eyes and decapitate Gary Neal!)

Bryant’s next four shots were heavily-guarded misses. Gary Neal’s face still exists. Lakers to the exits, hence this missive.

The fourth quarter was illustrative of Kobe’s occasional crunch time lapses. When Bryant fails, it’s not because he shrinks from the moment--it’s because he tries to own it. That’s not to say that Kobe blunders often, it’s just to explain how it happens when he does. Our cultural assumption is that crunch time failing is “choking,” wilting under pressure, succumbing to the situation. But, when Bryant "chokes," he bites off more than he can chew--like a mamba chomping a hippo.

So here is my subjective, Playoffs-based needling of Kobe’s assassin credentials--the permit given to men whom you want shooting “with the game on the line.” I do it because so many Bryant debates pit stat lovers against conventional wisdom, and so many conventional wisdom clingers prey on emotional memory.

This dust-draped Youtube clip is the Game 6, 2006, series-losing airball that History forgot. It's a way-off airball, and a terrible miss amid a 50 point performance. Instead, we harp on his infamous following game, where KB “quit” in the second half. Strange that fans are willing to dismiss the botched heave, in favor of a bizarre moralistic narrative where Bryant failed out of spite. The unreasonable Puritanical screeching about Kobe’s Game 7 reminds me of the unhinged tumult that followed LeBron’s Game 5.

Below are two recent examples of fortuitous Kobe misses. I’m leaving out the most famous fortunate Bryant shank because Kings fans have it hard enough (Think: Horry, Robert). Notice the difficulty level of the Artest and Gasol shots.

His 1997 airballs versus the Jazz are barely worth mentioning. Kid Kobe was too young for the situation. Kudos to him for growing towards greatness, despite this early searing experience.

Did I remember his game-tying three against the Pistons in 2004? What about those heroics in Game 4 of that same Suns series, referenced earlier? Sure I remember all that, but so do you. The task is to highlight what isn’t sepia-toned. The goal isn’t to declare Kobe incapable in these moments, but instead to deny his mastery of them.

To quote Tom Haberstroh’s brilliant piece on Kobe vs. LeBron in crunch time--an article that gives Bryant considerable credit:

“We watch in anticipation as the ball leaves Bryant's fingertips on a contested perimeter jumper, which is the toughest shot in the game. But the degree of difficulty of the shot works both ways. When he hits the back-breaking shot, it is heroic. But when he misses, it is understandable.”

What’s understandable is that he misses a tough shot. But it's hard for many to grasp the flaw in Kobe's courage of conviction. And my subjective Bryant belief is, “The bigger the moment, the tougher the shot.” Fan wisdom says: Bravery is virtue. To claim that Kobe’s late-game confidence leads him to Icarus misses is subversive to that notion. I'd like to rebound that airball.



Heres more:

Kobe Bryant: There isn’t a player in the league with a more daunting clutch profile, but Bryant’s late-game contributions are overstated. He’s been a very productive clutch player this season, but Bryant’s tendency to break the offense to take any shot that strikes his fancy has led to some disappointing efficiency marks. Bryant shoots just 38.5 percent from the field in clutch situations (a mark even more damaging because Kobe attempts the most shots per clutch minute in the N.B.A.), which when combined with his 5.3 turnovers per 48 minutes is inefficient enough to keep him off the proper list of finishers.

Plus, it’s worth noting: Bryant has a negative raw plus/minus in the clutch this season. He can make big shots, but Kobe can shoot his team out of games, too.


The topic of "clutch" is a contentious one in sports. In baseball, the debate over clutch hitting has raged for decades, with sabermetricians arguing there's no evidence it's an actual skill and wizened baseball men claiming they've seen it with their own two eyes. In basketball, a sport that's been slower to embrace modern statistics, the fight over clutchness is in its relative infancy. Perhaps Kobe Bryant, then, will become the NBA's Derek Jeter: a player whom the media and the fans perceive as clutch despite a lack of statistical evidence to prove the case.

The Kobe-as-closer idea kicked into gear this season as Bryant sank six game-winning shots, each more spectacular than the last. On Dec. 4 against the Miami Heat, for example, he banked in a 3-pointer at the buzzer off one foot with Dwyane Wade in his face. As fans, though, we tend to remember the makes and forget the misses. According to 82 Games, Bryant missed the most potentially game-winning shots (42) of anyone in the NBA from 2003-04 through the middle of the 2008-09 season. (In this study, a game-winning shot was defined as one taken with 24 seconds or less remaining and the score tied or the team with the ball down by 1 or 2 points.) While Bryant was fourth in the NBA in game-winners (14) over that period—behind LeBron James, Vince Carter, and Ray Allen—his .250 game-winning shooting percentage was below the league average of .298. That .250 mark was also the second-worst of anyone with at least six game-winning baskets, behind only the SI poll's second-favorite clutch performer, Chauncey Billups. (Some of the league's best late-game shooters by percentage: Carmelo Anthony, Antawn Jamison, and Pau Gasol.)

Clutchness doesn't always come down to whether you make a shot at the buzzer. If we go with the definition proffered by 82 Games, "clutch" situations are those with less than five minutes left in the fourth quarter or in overtime and neither team ahead by more than five points. At first glance, Bryant seems to pulverize opponents in these close-and-late scenarios: He was second in the league this season in points scored per 48 minutes in the clutch (51.2), first in 2008-09 (56.7), and second in 2007-08 (51.8).

But again, point totals don't tell the whole story—it also matters how often you make the clutch shots you take. I called upon David J. Berri, an economics professor at Southern Utah University and the co-author of Stumbling on Wins, to help me determine how Bryant's clutch shooting percentage compared to his peers. First, Berri determined which players took the most shots in the clutch over the past few regular seasons. According to his data, 49 players compiled at least 100 clutch minutes and averaged at least 16 field goal attempts per 48 clutch minutes in 2009-2010. While Bryant had the second-highest scoring average in this group of 49, he did it while averaging the second most field goal attempts. That left the Lakers star 17th in clutch field goal percentage (.444) in 2009-10, behind players like Andrea Bargnani and Zach Randolph. Bryant didn't do any better the previous two seasons, finishing 21st out of 59 qualifying players in clutch shooting percentage in 2008-09 and 24th out of 59 in 2007-08. (In all three years, his standard field goal percentage was slightly better than his clutch shooting percentage.)

Bryant also doesn't look particularly clutch if you judge him by Berri's advanced stats. In the service of our clutchness study, the economist narrowed the scope of his Wins Produced per 48 minutes metric to players who have logged at least 100 minutes of clutch time. After breaking down the past three regular seasons, Berri discovered that Bryant was 17th among qualifiers in WP48 Clutch in 2009-10, fourth in 2008-09, and 21st in 2007-08. (In all three seasons, Bryant's WP48 Clutch number was an improvement over his standard WP48, meaning that by this measure, he performed better in the clutch than in regular game situations.)

Berri's numbers, however, don't include the part of the season where legends are made: the playoffs. According to that 82 Games study of game-winning shots, Bryant and LeBron James are tied with the most playoff game-winners (four) from 2003 to 2008. Considering that small sample size, we need more data to figure out if The Closer closes out NBA playoff games. To that end, I contacted Wayne Winston, a professor at Indiana University and a former consultant for the Dallas Mavericks. To evaluate a player's performance late in games, Winston used an adjusted fourth quarter plus-minus rating, which (as defined by 82 Games) "indicate[s] how many additional points are contributed to a team's scoring margin by a given player in comparison to the league-average player over the span of a typical game." In this case, Winston shortened the span from a typical game to just the fourth quarter. Over the past four seasons—including the 2009-10 playoffs and Game 1 of this year's NBA Finals—Bryant has excelled late in games, but he isn't the best closer in basketball. According to Winston's calculations, that title belongs to LeBron James, who has a fourth quarter plus-minus rating of +21. Dwyane Wade is second in the league at +12 and Bryant is tied for third with Tim Duncan at +11.

Berri's numbers agree with Winston's: The King is a better closer than Black Mamba. James' Wins Produced per 48 minutes number skyrocketed from .441 to .893 in the clutch (first in the NBA) during the 2009-10 regular season, from .426 to .944 in the clutch (first in the NBA) during the 2008-09 regular season, and from .327 to .550 in the clutch (second in the NBA) during the 2007-08 regular season. (Bryant's WP48 Clutch numbers in those years are anemic by comparison: .282, .429, and .300.)

What accounts for James' greatness in the clutch? Essentially, almost every facet of his game improves when the game is on the line. "Most importantly, [James] improved with respect to shooting efficiency and rebounds," Berri explained via e-mail. "Kobe also improved by lesser amounts with respect to rebounds and free throws. But he also got worse with respect to shooting efficiency from the field, assists, blocked shots, and steals. Basically each player tries to do more in the clutch. But LeBron is better at turning this effort into results."

LeBron's ability in the clutch can be quantified in other ways. He led the league in points per 48 minutes of clutch time in 2009-10 (66.1) and 2007-08 (56.0), and finished second (55.9) to Bryant in 2008-09. He also had a better clutch field goal percentage per 48 minutes than Bryant in 2009-10 (.488, ninth), 2008-09 (.556, second), and 2007-08 (.475, 16th). And according to 82 Games, James also had six game-winning assists from 2003 to 2009, while Bryant had just one assist to go along with his 56 shot attempts.

So, does LeBron James' run of clutchness mean that there is such a thing as clutch ability in basketball? Berri says that a couple of years of LeBron and Kobe stats aren't enough to help us reach a general conclusion. All we can say at this point, the economist believes, "is that Kobe is not the most clutch player in the history of the universe (or whatever Kobe fans assert)."

Behavorial economist Daniel Ariely argues that a player's clutchness is a fiction based more on social agreement than on performance. In a study, Ariely asked a group of professional coaches who they thought were the NBA's best clutch players. Not surprisingly, the same set of stars kept coming up, including Bryant, James, Wade, and Duncan. Ariely then compared the performances of alleged clutch players with those were not explicitly identified as clutch. "As it turned out, the clutch players did not improve their skill; they just [shot the ball] many more times," Ariely wrote in a recent piece for the Huffington Post. "Their field goal percentage did not increase in the last five minutes. … [N]either was it the case that non-clutch players got worse."

Before latching on to pro basketball players, Ariely initially set out to study Wall Street bankers—another group that fights for supremacy as a part of highly selective teams. Ariely says he heard the same things about the bankers and the athletes: They're not regular people. They thrive on stress. Indeed, that SI poll about late-game heroes shows that Bryant's colleagues don't see him as a regular person, that they believe he thrives on stress. Kobe might be the best basketball player alive, and he very well could hit a game-winning shot in the NBA Finals. He's doesn't, however, have a unique ability to score in the clutch. The only reason he's The Closer is that his teammates, his coach, and the sports media have chosen him to assume the role.

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 08:39 AM
This article is proof that kobe is not a great clutch performer. Before you post anything, please read. This is hard evidence about people and how they are indoctrinated by the media and thus become conservatives.

Minimal
01-08-2011, 08:41 AM
It's a long time fact LeBron is much better in clutch time than Kobe.

This is just another dirty LeBron vs Kobe thread...

barreleffact
01-08-2011, 08:46 AM
this has been said before and posted. its irrelevant. the fact is he kobe has a much different skillset. when lebron goes for the game winner its generally a head first barrel toward the rim. when kobe does, its a jump shot. Kobe wont make nearly as many jumpers as lebron will dunks but so what? lebron wont be able to rely on his athleticism forever

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 08:46 AM
It's a long time fact LeBron is much better in clutch time than Kobe.

This is just another dirty LeBron vs Kobe thread...

This is not meant to be lebron vs kobe. It is to prove a point to how the media hypes up one players skill and people believe it. It also mentions billups/melo/dirk and many others.

Minimal
01-08-2011, 09:02 AM
This is not meant to be lebron vs kobe. It is to prove a point to how the media hypes up one players skill and people believe it. It also mentions billups/melo/dirk and many others.
Only people from LA believe it and some LeBron haters.
Kobe holds the record for most missed clutch shots in NBA history, if I'm not wrong.
This pretty much proves everything.
Link (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html)

dodie53
01-08-2011, 09:03 AM
they fail so they can succeed

Basketash
01-08-2011, 09:06 AM
Nice article but i thought it would never end. Hehe

eknicksfan
01-08-2011, 09:07 AM
also...

Berri's numbers agree with Winston's: The King is a better closer than Black Mamba.

Causation is not causality....
Just because two ARBITRARY mathematical equations are equal, this DOES NOT MEAN that the KING IS A BETTER CLOSER (THIS IS ONLY YOUR INTERPRETATION)

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 09:08 AM
Nice article but i thought it would never end. Hehe

lol its a collection of 3 articles. I bolded the parts that stood out.

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 09:10 AM
also...

Berri's numbers agree with Winston's: The King is a better closer than Black Mamba.

Causation is not causality....
Just because two ARBITRARY mathematical equations are equal, this DOES NOT MEAN that the KING IS A BETTER CLOSER (THIS IS ONLY YOUR INTERPRETATION)

well your idea is wrong. its "correlation does not mean causality"
and yes...the numbers prove it. blind hatred and conservatism at work with you.

Minimal
01-08-2011, 09:12 AM
sorry man, but valiant effort. kobe has how many rings? lebron has how many? oh yeah kobe has 5 and lebron has 0. even if you make the case that lebron is more clutch than kobe, you still have to think playoffs...the regular season does not really mean much (see last years celtics). at the end of the day, the rings don't lie.
Another LeBron hater who has nothing to say in favor of Kobe and brings the rings argument...
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Thunder, but Pau Gasol made the layup after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 5 against Phoenix, but Ron Artest made the shot after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he shot 6-24 in game 7 against Celtics, but Ron Artest made 3 and Vujacic 2 FT in clutch time and they won.

eknicksfan
01-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Another LeBron hater who has nothing to say in favor of Kobe and brings the rings argument...
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Thunder, but Pau Gasol made the layup after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Phoenix, but Ron Artest made the shot after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he shot 6-24 in game 7 against Celtics, but Ron Artest made 3 and Vujacic 2 FT in clutch time and they won.

easy there, i think lebron is the most dominant player in the NBA.

RapOZo
01-08-2011, 09:35 AM
lol
13 seasons later and they still gotta go around collecting stats to probe points
whether you like it or not, kobe is a hall of famer, top 5 of all time. and will go home with a very good clutch reputation.

sorry

magichatnumber9
01-08-2011, 09:57 AM
This is the argument by Kobe fans. If he plays bad it's his knee, If he plays good it's because his is a god. Anyway I have nothing to comment as far as the article. If fans want to point to rings then Bill Russell is the greatest of all time and not Michael. And as much as I love BR he was not better then Jordan..

bolts4ever
01-08-2011, 10:19 AM
this is hilarious guys really think Lebron is the most clutch player in the league when he not even the most clutch player on his own team. Wade takes ALL THE BIG SHOTS for MIA!!!


Secondly: just ask players and coaches in teams across the league who do they FEAR MOST in clutch situations??????? Why is it they all say Kobe???


you can probably name me one or two CLUTCH PERFOMANCES of LEBRON in which his team won over the years. I can give you countless games Kobe has SINGLE HANDEDLY Carried his team regular season & playoffs.

Minimal
01-08-2011, 10:25 AM
This thread should be closed.

Public Enemy #1
01-08-2011, 10:28 AM
this is hilarious guys really think Lebron is the most clutch player in the league when he not even the most clutch player on his own team. Wade takes ALL THE BIG SHOTS for MIA!!!


Secondly: just ask players and coaches in teams across the league who do they FEAR MOST in clutch situations??????? Why is it they all say Kobe???


you can probably name me one or two CLUTCH PERFOMANCES of LEBRON in which his team won over the years. I can give you countless games Kobe has SINGLE HANDEDLY Carried his team regular season & playoffs.

Lebron makes it easier for himself by driving to the rim instead of settling for a jumpshot like Kobe. Kobe may be clutch but he has never actually hit a game winner that mattered in the playoffs... When did Kobe carry his team? 2007? The same year he quit on his team? lol

ldawg
01-08-2011, 10:42 AM
don't worry Kobe When you are the best there will always be forces trying to cut you down. They are picking on you because you are no longer 26. This is a BS. These people will not stop. We get it, Lebron is the next big thing in todays piggy back standards. but each game winning situation is different it cannot me measured. Just watch the tapes and see the level of difficulty.

ttam68
01-08-2011, 10:42 AM
If this is supposed to be an article, link to it. It appears to be rambling, carefully chosen, critiques of times Kobe was bad.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 10:46 AM
This is what you get for being the best Kobe.

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 10:48 AM
If this is supposed to be an article, link to it. It appears to be rambling, carefully chosen, critiques of times Kobe was bad.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/23312/subjective-kobe-is-not-clutch

http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?54631-Kobe-is-not-the-most-clutch-player-in-the-NBA

ldawg
01-08-2011, 10:51 AM
Would someone go and track all of lebron bad performances. I am sure he has many like any other player. The last time i look Lebron has 0 ring and counting. Not to mention he now plays with a better game closer than he is in wade. Watch the games stop following this stat BS.

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 10:53 AM
Would someone go and track all of lebron bad performances. I am sure he has many like any other player. The last time i look Lebron has 0 ring and counting. Not to mention he now plays with a better game closer than he is in wade. Watch the games stop following this stat BS.

wade had a wide open shot attempt to win the game yesterday because lebron was getting doubled on the inbound. guess what...he missed. and who took over in over time? lebron

handle
01-08-2011, 10:53 AM
What a pathetic topic. Nothing but a bunch of Kobe haters getting together and jerking each other off. There's more to the game than stats, dipshits.

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 10:54 AM
This is not a kobe vs lebron thread. I do not want it to get closed

ldawg
01-08-2011, 10:54 AM
All BS, Lebron chuck many air balls at the rim in his shorter nba life. Kobe played More games=More shots taken=more shots missed. Go back tally Lebron 8 years from now.

bolts4ever
01-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Another LeBron hater who has nothing to say in favor of Kobe and brings the rings argument...
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Thunder, but Pau Gasol made the layup after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 5 against Phoenix, but Ron Artest made the shot after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he shot 6-24 in game 7 against Celtics, but Ron Artest made 3 and Vujacic 2 FT in clutch time and they won.

1.) funny how you failed to mention Kobe dropped 32pts 16 in the 3rd qrt alone and hit every big shoot besides the game winner for the Lakers.

2.) Cant Make em all especially fadeway 3's with 2 guys on you. but what about game 6 a closeout game on the road KOBE had about 35-40 pts and hit about 5 BACKBREAKERS in the 4th qrt.

3.) Everybody loves to bringing up Kobes 6-24 and kills him HE HAD 23pts & 15 REBS. AGAINST the CELTICS TO WIN THE FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! and who was the Finals MVP????

But HOW About Lebron????

CAVS VS CELTICS 2008 ECFinals
Game 1: 2-18 11% FG and 10 Turn-Overs 12 PTS!!!! LOSS!!
Game 2: 6-24 25% FG and 7 Turn-Overs 21PTS!! LOSS

did they win this series??????
CRICKET! CRICKET! real quiet now huh!!!

4.) The only reason ARTEST was open was cause KOBE WAS DBL TEAMED.

and on VuJACIC's FT's BOSTON TRIPLE TEAMED KOBE TO MAKE SURE HE DIDINT GET THE BALL on the inbounds!!!!

COME CORRECT NEXT TIME BRO!!! wit real INFO STOP HATIN ON KOBE aka Mr. Rings

ldawg
01-08-2011, 10:59 AM
wade had a wide open shot attempt to win the game yesterday because lebron was getting doubled on the inbound. guess what...he missed. and who took over in over time? lebronagainst Who? a below 500. team?

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 11:01 AM
bucks. i said yesterday...cant research yourself?

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:03 AM
This is not a kobe vs lebron thread. I do not want it to get closedIt is, Thats espn goal. its all BS. not sure where they find these bias people.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:05 AM
bucks. i said yesterday...cant research yourself?How many games Kobe Bryant won that way. What lebron is doing has been done before. nothing new.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:14 AM
Espn just go and tally all the missed shots by each nba player if you want to construct a meaning less study.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:17 AM
Next they are going to say Lebron is better than MJ and he is the best player to ever set foot in the nba. they are trying to plant a seed in your head.

IndiansFan337
01-08-2011, 11:29 AM
I read an article about clutch performances over the past few years in the final 5 minutes of regulation or OT with the score within 5 pts and LeBron had tremendously better statistics than Kobe, although Kobe had 6 game winning shots during that time period. The fact of the matter was that LeBron had performed so well in those situations that his team didn't have many final possessions that were within a game winning shot.

ManRam
01-08-2011, 11:36 AM
Its not really a controversial issue here. Kobe gets a ton of love for his game winning shots, but no one who supports him usually brings up his overall clutch play, or factor misses into account. Game winning shots made isn't a telling stat without factoring in the misses and isn't a telling clutch stat without factoring in his play for all clutch minutes. He often doesn't pay well up until to the last shot so that a game winning shot becomes necessary.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:42 AM
I read an article about clutch performances over the past few years in the final 5 minutes of regulation or OT with the score within 5 pts and LeBron had tremendously better statistics than Kobe, although Kobe had 6 game winning shots during that time period. The fact of the matter was that LeBron had performed so well in those situations that his team didn't have many final possessions that were within a game winning shot.a good indicator that Lebron is not clutch and he is a ball hog. Give it to lebron and clear out. Its no wonder he has no rings nore will he get one being the man.

MSU4life
01-08-2011, 11:42 AM
this is another lebron is so much better than kobe thread. lets just count the ringd

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:43 AM
i'll take 26 year old Kobe over 26 year old Lebron any day.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:47 AM
Lebron get a pass for joining his biggest competition to insure he piggy back to a few rings. And get upset Anthony and Chris may join New York and spoil his plot. Some great player he his.

MSU4life
01-08-2011, 11:47 AM
1.) funny how you failed to mention Kobe dropped 32pts 16 in the 3rd qrt alone and hit every big shoot besides the game winner for the Lakers.

2.) Cant Make em all especially fadeway 3's with 2 guys on you. but what about game 6 a closeout game on the road KOBE had about 35-40 pts and hit about 5 BACKBREAKERS in the 4th qrt.

3.) Everybody loves to bringing up Kobes 6-24 and kills him HE HAD 23pts & 15 REBS. AGAINST the CELTICS TO WIN THE FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! and who was the Finals MVP????

But HOW About Lebron????

CAVS VS CELTICS 2008 ECFinals
Game 1: 2-18 11% FG and 10 Turn-Overs 12 PTS!!!! LOSS!!
Game 2: 6-24 25% FG and 7 Turn-Overs 21PTS!! LOSS

did they win this series??????
CRICKET! CRICKET! real quiet now huh!!!

4.) The only reason ARTEST was open was cause KOBE WAS DBL TEAMED.

and on VuJACIC's FT's BOSTON TRIPLE TEAMED KOBE TO MAKE SURE HE DIDINT GET THE BALL on the inbounds!!!!

COME CORRECT NEXT TIME BRO!!! wit real INFO STOP HATIN ON KOBE aka Mr. Rings

couldnt of said it better my self. not to mention last year vs. celtics for lebron
last time i checked lebron is 0-2 against the celtics in the playoffs, kobe is 1-1 with a ring

SteBO
01-08-2011, 11:51 AM
I wonder what the excuses will be when LeBron has a couple of rings with a Finals MVP under his belt? The lame excuses I've read so far are just absurd.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 11:52 AM
couldnt of said it better my self. not to mention last year vs. celtics for lebron
last time i checked lebron is 0-2 against the celtics in the playoffs, kobe is 1-1 with a ringdon't you all know stats is more important than wins and rings. Lebron makes his teammates better and Kobe is a ball hog. :shush::shush:

Jmess0311
01-08-2011, 11:58 AM
its as easy as this...it not all about stats, it what a player brings to a team....does kobe hit all the big shots no...hes human...but the team needs him on the floor bc he is a winner flat out, kobe knows how to win...thats why he has 5 rings....lebron is dominate but just doesnt know how to win thats why he has no rings...and its funny bc now he has dwade and bosh 3 100 million players, whats to say that if lebron doesnt win a championship this year....is he ever going to? the heat will win a championship, once the competition gets watered down a little, when the older guys in the west and the guys on the celtics all retire, good thing hes young


how good would kobe be if he was as big as lebron, with kobes skill set?

ttam68
01-08-2011, 11:59 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/23312/subjective-kobe-is-not-clutch

This article ends with admiration for Kobe.



http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?54631-Kobe-is-not-the-most-clutch-player-in-the-NBA

This forum links back to this: http://www.slate.com/id/2255932

I've never heard of slate.com, but I can't pretend to have read through all of this. Advanced statistics show us a number of things in terms of whos performing the best in specific situations. But they can't gather the context of those situations. Kobe's won enough in various roles (Robin to Shaqs Batman, Pseudo Jordan in the mid 2000s, old wily veteran leader/star in 2008-2010, to overshooting upset leader now) to discredit this type of criticism.

Its just as easy to cite times Kobe has succeeded, or Lebron/Wade/Jordan/Magic/Bird/whoever else you want to hype up failed, as it is to point out Kobe's failures.

Jmess0311
01-08-2011, 12:01 PM
I wonder what the excuses will be when LeBron has a couple of rings with a Finals MVP under his belt? The lame excuses I've read so far are just absurd.

u being a heat fan and all....u might wanna worry about ur team getting past the celtics before u start worrying about how many rings lebron will get

how many rings did kobe have when he was lebrons age? 3 i think...hes got a lot of work to do to catch up

AsiandudePH
01-08-2011, 12:06 PM
What a pathetic topic. Nothing but a bunch of Kobe haters getting together and jerking each other off. There's more to the game than stats, dipshits.

This.

And yes, LeBron and Kobe has different skill sets. Have LeBron take jump shots in clutch situations and he'll miss as much shots as Kobe if not more.

If Kobe's younger and has the body frame that LeBron has he'd do the same and ram through defenders, get a shot up or try to get a foul. That's why they call shots around the paint high percentage and mid to long range low percentage.

Good grief. Oranges and apples.

tredigs
01-08-2011, 12:08 PM
It annoys me that NOT ONE of the posts defending Kobe are in a matter-of-fact (non defensive) tone and even close to an intelligent discussion. Admittedly, very few of the Lebron backers are either, but at least theres a couple, and this article plus the countless other diatribes written on this subject prove the reality of the situation.

No point in writing anything further until an intelligently written/non-emotional post defending Kobe here is written (hint: try to use less than 18 exclamation points or attack Lebron personally like he's your sworn enemy when making your argument). This is my new stance in any thread involving Kobe from here on out. People spend too much time arguing emotional wrecks who will NEVER even ATTEMPT to hear anything but "Kobe = best". Its old buddies.

OG "Dee" LOCc
01-08-2011, 12:10 PM
kobe has 5 rings

ManRam
01-08-2011, 12:19 PM
kobe has 5 rings

Well, thanks for sharing, but that's not what we're talking about. I know that when reason and logic fail, just pointing to the rings is a Laker fan's strategy, but it doesn't work for this. There are literally 100s of articles articulating how he is a quantity over quality type clutch player. Yes, he has a ton of game winning shots, but he also has a ton of game winning shot misses. He doesn't play as well throughout the duration of late 4th quarter clutch time as a lot of other super stars. These are just facts. More reading, for those who want to be objective about this...

Not one defense of Kobe here has been empirical or really even intelligent.

Yes, last year he made 6 game winning shots, but yes, from 2004-2009 he missed more (http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm) game winning shots than anyone else in the league. A list of makes is only telling with a list of the total attempts.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255932/
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222

LeBron has been more clutch the last few years.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Kobe is one of the greatest big shot players of all time, and one of the greatest clutch players period of all time as well...but setting him on a pedestal all by himself just isn't right.

I'm still dying to see a LIST of all of his game winning shot ATTEMPTS. Curious to see how many misses go along with all those makes.

barreleffact
01-08-2011, 12:20 PM
This.

And yes, LeBron and Kobe has different skill sets. Have LeBron take jump shots in clutch situations and he'll miss as much shots as Kobe if not more.

If Kobe's younger and has the body frame that LeBron has he'd do the same and ram through defenders, get a shot up or try to get a foul. That's why they call shots around the paint high percentage and mid to long range low percentage.

Good grief. Oranges and apples.

I do agree but you cant blame lebron for doing what works. Maybe kobe and phil should draw up higher efficiency plays

ldawg
01-08-2011, 12:23 PM
It annoys me that NOT ONE of the posts defending Kobe are in a matter-of-fact (non defensive) tone and even close to an intelligent discussion. Admittedly, very few of the Lebron backers are either, but at least theres a couple, and this article plus the countless other diatribes written on this subject prove the reality of the situation.

No point in writing anything further until an intelligently written/non-emotional post defending Kobe here is written (hint: try to use less than 18 exclamation points or attack Lebron personally like he's your sworn enemy when making your argument). This is my new stance in any thread involving Kobe from here on out. People spend too much time arguing emotional wrecks who will NEVER even ATTEMPT to hear anything but "Kobe = best". Its old buddies.Point is espn bias jerks are pointing stats bs that does not bring to reality the game situations. Do you have to make the last shot to be clutch? how many wide open looks Kobe gave Fisher, Robert, Fox, Shaw, Artest. We all know Shaq could not finish games because of his free throw short comings. Remember the Indy series? Blazers. These are for rings on the big stage. But 250lbs james steam offensive fouling dude is better yeah right.

IndiansFan337
01-08-2011, 12:24 PM
a good indicator that Lebron is not clutch and he is a ball hog. Give it to lebron and clear out. Its no wonder he has no rings nore will he get one being the man.

It works. I don't know why you're saying LBJ is a ball hog when Kobe's own coach called him out for that same quality just this past week.

barreleffact
01-08-2011, 12:25 PM
Well, thanks for sharing, but that's not what we're talking about. I know that when reason and logic fail, just pointing to the rings is a Laker fan's strategy, but it doesn't work for this. There are literally 100s of articles articulating how he is a quantity over quality type clutch player. Yes, he has a ton of game winning shots, but he also has a ton of game winning shot misses. He doesn't play as well throughout the duration of late 4th quarter clutch time as a lot of other super stars. These are just facts. More reading, for those who want to be objective about this...

Not one defense of Kobe here has been empirical or really even intelligent.

Yes, last year he made 6 game winning shots, but yes, from 2004-2009 he missed more (http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm) game winning shots than anyone else in the league. A list of makes is only telling with a list of the total attempts.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255932/
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222

LeBron has been more clutch the last few years.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Kobe is one of the greatest big shot players of all time, and one of the greatest clutch players period of all time as well...but setting him on a pedestal all by himself just isn't right.

I'm still dying to see a LIST of all of his game winning shot ATTEMPTS. Curious to see how many misses go along with all those makes.

I am curious too. I would also like to see the play that was run to open him up because many times, as in the playoffs last season, kobe is at least double teamed at the catch. With a defender covering you, the chances of missing skyrocket....but two? As much credit as kobe and phil get at times they do deserve some of the opposite. Phil has been the best coach in history, still at times I think someoe of gregg pop's stature could have made Kobe more efficient or drawn better closing plays

ldawg
01-08-2011, 12:29 PM
It works. I don't know why you're saying LBJ is a ball hog when Kobe's own coach called him out for that same quality just this past week.Yes he did and If he Was Lebron Coach he Would say the same. Lebron has been a ball hog for years but he get a free pass. Thats another reason i don't follow the media BS they have double standards when it come to certain players.

IndiansFan337
01-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Yes he did and If he Was Lebron Coach he Would say the same. Lebron has been a ball hog for years but he get a free pass. Thats another reason i don't follow the media BS they have double standards when it come to certain players.

So if they do the same thing, then what was the point of this last post? :confused:


a good indicator that Lebron is not clutch and he is a ball hog.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 12:43 PM
So if they do the same thing, then what was the point of this last post? :confused:one player get get praise the other is a ball hog. double standards. its Bias BS. The Player that has done more is worst than a player who has came up short numerous times. Stats is more important than results.

Nate David+ Co.
01-08-2011, 12:49 PM
Ok..are we really going to have an articule based on numbers tell us that kobe is less clutch then lebron?
ok fine but at the end of the day, Kobe wins...
kobe does whatever it takes...he's argueably the best or second best player ever. tied or right after MJ....
so who cares about this articule attempting a shot a kobe...
its really sad

ATX
01-08-2011, 12:53 PM
It annoys me that NOT ONE of the posts defending Kobe are in a matter-of-fact (non defensive) tone and even close to an intelligent discussion. Admittedly, very few of the Lebron backers are either, but at least theres a couple, and this article plus the countless other diatribes written on this subject prove the reality of the situation.

No point in writing anything further until an intelligently written/non-emotional post defending Kobe here is written (hint: try to use less than 18 exclamation points or attack Lebron personally like he's your sworn enemy when making your argument). This is my new stance in any thread involving Kobe from here on out. People spend too much time arguing emotional wrecks who will NEVER even ATTEMPT to hear anything but "Kobe = best". Its old buddies.

Oh man, I love this post. It bothers me to no end too. Pointing to the rings is the Laker escape for anything and everything critical towards their team. It's as if they feel exonorated from every discussion. They always just say "Kobe has 5 rings" while discrediting anything and everything about LBJ as well. They think he did it all by himself, and LBJ can't do it on his own. They forget that a prime Shaq had had something to do with that. No discredit from those Laker teams, they were dominant but Kobe didn't do it "All" on his own. Even now in the midst of the current back to back, this team is stacked with Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest. Again, no discredit, the Lakers are a great "Team". If ever I've seen one man win a ship, which is an absurd notion, then the closest I have seen is Wade in the 06' Finals.

ManRam
01-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Ok..are we really going to have an articule based on numbers tell us that kobe is less clutch then lebron?
ok fine but at the end of the day, Kobe wins...
kobe does whatever it takes...he's argueably the best or second best player ever. tied or right after MJ....
so who cares about this articule attempting a shot a kobe...
its really sad

Kobe's team wins* Kobe will be a top 10 player of all time, but when comparing two individuals, there are far more telling stats than just counting rings...

Again, when all else fails, just fall back on that...it's too predictable.

And LeBron is now a ball hog??? Interesting. The amount of reason and intelligence in this thread is ridiculous.

Statik1
01-08-2011, 12:54 PM
lol this is comical

You know Kobe is doing something right if this type of **** gets posted all the time lol

This article is some nice copypasta http://i.imgur.com/W2N7A.jpg

ldawg
01-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Lebron has fail to deliver being the main man on his team but he is mr clutch and he has won nothing.

xxplayerxx23
01-08-2011, 01:00 PM
Another LeBron hater who has nothing to say in favor of Kobe and brings the rings argument...
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Thunder, but Pau Gasol made the layup after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 5 against Phoenix, but Ron Artest made the shot after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he shot 6-24 in game 7 against Celtics, but Ron Artest made 3 and Vujacic 2 FT in clutch time and they won.

Calm down. Lebron isnt amzingly clutch if kobe isnt clutch. In game 4 and game 5 What did he do. Didnt he shoot 2 for 15 or something. He stooped shooting too, DO you think mj would stop even if he is shooting terrible he would take it to the hole. Lebron kept shooting jumpers and then just stoped doing anything. Lebron>kobe right now overall,But Kobe is more clutch

AsiandudePH
01-08-2011, 01:03 PM
I do agree but you cant blame lebron for doing what works. Maybe kobe and phil should draw up higher efficiency plays

Whilst I agree that you can't blame LeBron for doing what works, technically he's doing just that because of, like I said, his body frame allows him to do so.

Kobe is a shooter first, slasher second when it comes to choosing his offense hence plays called for him more or less leans towards him taking shots from mid to long range. He's not built for driving with force and engaging contact in the air. Even in his younger years he relies on his athletic ability and finesse rather than physique--and LeBron has both body strength and athletic ability.

Which brings me back to what I posted that Kobe and LeBron has different skill sets which coincides with their physical attributes as well thus it's unfair to compare FG percentages. It's really not a double standard thing IMO for Kobe like the thread started insists.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. Both players plays magnificently in their own style. I'll stick to my argument that there's a reason why mid to long range is considered a low percentage shot and around the rim, lay ups and dunks are considered high percentage shots.

ldawg
01-08-2011, 01:07 PM
this is all BS

AsiandudePH
01-08-2011, 01:10 PM
Oh man, I love this post. It bothers me to no end too. Pointing to the rings is the Laker escape for anything and everything critical towards their team. It's as if they feel exonorated from every discussion. They always just say "Kobe has 5 rings" while discrediting anything and everything about LBJ as well. They think he did it all by himself, and LBJ can't do it on his own. They forget that a prime Shaq had had something to do with that. No discredit from those Laker teams, they were dominant but Kobe didn't do it "All" on his own. Even now in the midst of the current back to back, this team is stacked with Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest. Again, no discredit, the Lakers are a great "Team". If ever I've seen one man win a ship, which is an absurd notion, then the closest I have seen is Wade in the 06' Finals.

Well, I'm one of those who don't agree that more rings makes a better player out of anybody--and I'm a Lakers fan.

I also believe, however, that you shouldn't compare last year's Cleveland team versus this year's Cleveland team with or without LeBron. Different coaching staff, added and subtracted players, different chemistry.

Anyway, both players are great at what they do, their style of plays. NO ONE should be blinded by biases.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 01:11 PM
u being a heat fan and all....u might wanna worry about ur team getting past the celtics before u start worrying about how many rings lebron will get

how many rings did kobe have when he was lebrons age? 3 i think...hes got a lot of work to do to catch up
Trust me. I'm aware of that. But as a heat fan, I trust that my team can do some amazing things, including winning it all, through the Boston Celtics. It's called having faith in your team, so I was just curious about what the excuses would be if it were to happen. I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, and based on your response to me, I'm not sure of you saw it that way, so for that, I commend you.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 01:12 PM
u being a heat fan and all....u might wanna worry about ur team getting past the celtics before u start worrying about how many rings lebron will get

how many rings did kobe have when he was lebrons age? 3 i think...hes got a lot of work to do to catch up
Trust me. I'm aware of that. But as a heat fan, I trust that my team can do some amazing things, including winning it all, through the Boston Celtics. It's called having faith in your team, so I was just curious about what the excuses would be if it were to happen. I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, and based on your response to me, I'm not sure of you saw it that way, so for that, I commend you.

ATX
01-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Whilst I agree that you can't blame LeBron for doing what works, technically he's doing just that because of, like I said, his body frame allows him to do so.

Kobe is a shooter first, slasher second when it comes to choosing his offense hence plays called for him more or less leans towards him taking shots from mid to long range. He's not built for driving with force and engaging contact in the air. Even in his younger years he relies on his athletic ability and finesse rather than physique--and LeBron has both body strength and athletic ability.

Which brings me back to what I posted that Kobe and LeBron has different skill sets which coincides with their physical attributes as well thus it's unfair to compare FG percentages. It's really not a double standard thing IMO for Kobe like the thread started insists.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. Both players plays magnificently in their own style. I'll stick to my argument that there's a reason why mid to long range is considered a low percentage shot and around the rim, lay ups and dunks are considered high percentage shots.

Great post.

Both players play to their repsective strengths.

blueplanet
01-08-2011, 01:15 PM
Like I said before Kobe is the greatest ballhog superstar in nba history. He's has been way overrated. He misses most of his clutch shots and makes a very few and that become highlight. And how does ring come into this conversation? How many did he win without Shaq and Gasol? Stop BS'ing!

3RDASYSTEM
01-08-2011, 01:17 PM
I called him the D.Jeter of NBA and called his clutchness overrated a month ago to this day during a family sport debate, i love thinking for myself,no matter who agrees

This is his clutchness in nutshell: For those who dont 'watch' the games, he'll take 8-10 strait shots(mostly 3's)down the stretch and make 1,Then ESPN will run the clip of him hitting that '1' basket and say he is clutch by putting LA up in the game but wont mention he shot'em out the game(lead) and had to rely on that 1 shot made out of 8-10taken in last 4-5min of game...thats why i call it overrated clutchness, has he hit big shots? no doubt

AIRMAR72
01-08-2011, 01:28 PM
1.) funny how you failed to mention Kobe dropped 32pts 16 in the 3rd qrt alone and hit every big shoot besides the game winner for the Lakers.

2.) Cant Make em all especially fadeway 3's with 2 guys on you. but what about game 6 a closeout game on the road KOBE had about 35-40 pts and hit about 5 BACKBREAKERS in the 4th qrt.

3.) Everybody loves to bringing up Kobes 6-24 and kills him HE HAD 23pts & 15 REBS. AGAINST the CELTICS TO WIN THE FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! and who was the Finals MVP????

But HOW About Lebron????

CAVS VS CELTICS 2008 ECFinals
Game 1: 2-18 11% FG and 10 Turn-Overs 12 PTS!!!! LOSS!!
Game 2: 6-24 25% FG and 7 Turn-Overs 21PTS!! LOSS

did they win this series??????
CRICKET! CRICKET! real quiet now huh!!!

4.) The only reason ARTEST was open was cause KOBE WAS DBL TEAMED.

and on VuJACIC's FT's BOSTON TRIPLE TEAMED KOBE TO MAKE SURE HE DIDINT GET THE BALL on the inbounds!!!!

COME CORRECT NEXT TIME BRO!!! wit real INFO STOP HATIN ON KOBE aka Mr. Rings
imagine how kobe would do with bron cavs team im sure theyll below .500 team with kobe.. coach river boston team do not double players especially on da wing what they do is trap in da paint and close the baseline (plus boston have tuff minded players to make it work) and thats bron weakness he needs a lane or a screen or blowing down on a fastbreak to be effective going to da basket and once hes there no one could stop him bron cavs team dont have 2 dominant post-up 7ftrs with da lakers boston had respect pau and andrew which made it easier for kobe compare to bron team look at cavs now im sure da laker can still get it done without kobe.. kobe is nowhere near bron as for as WILL and EFFORT bron came in league in 03 better than kobe his IQ for da game to be so young at that time was off da chain and today hes still better than kobe... bron so good you cannot tell till after watching da game looking at his stat that he made a triple double scored 40 taking only 15 shots wade the same way too....KOBE SUCKS

notoriouzzzz
01-08-2011, 01:30 PM
1.) funny how you failed to mention Kobe dropped 32pts 16 in the 3rd qrt alone and hit every big shoot besides the game winner for the Lakers.

2.) Cant Make em all especially fadeway 3's with 2 guys on you. but what about game 6 a closeout game on the road KOBE had about 35-40 pts and hit about 5 BACKBREAKERS in the 4th qrt.

3.) Everybody loves to bringing up Kobes 6-24 and kills him HE HAD 23pts & 15 REBS. AGAINST the CELTICS TO WIN THE FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! and who was the Finals MVP????

But HOW About Lebron????

CAVS VS CELTICS 2008 ECFinals
Game 1: 2-18 11% FG and 10 Turn-Overs 12 PTS!!!! LOSS!!
Game 2: 6-24 25% FG and 7 Turn-Overs 21PTS!! LOSS

did they win this series??????
CRICKET! CRICKET! real quiet now huh!!!

4.) The only reason ARTEST was open was cause KOBE WAS DBL TEAMED.

and on VuJACIC's FT's BOSTON TRIPLE TEAMED KOBE TO MAKE SURE HE DIDINT GET THE BALL on the inbounds!!!!

COME CORRECT NEXT TIME BRO!!! wit real INFO STOP HATIN ON KOBE aka Mr. Rings
This EXACTLY!!!

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 01:32 PM
Listen people. I posted this thread to try to prove to the kobe lovers that he is not as clutch as he seems. Yes he makes big shots but he is wayyyy overrated in those situations.

It is not meant to say lebron>>>kobe so please don't take it as that.

I am merely saying that kobe is not the best clutch player in the nba and these articles prove it

OG "Dee" LOCc
01-08-2011, 01:32 PM
how many game winners did he hit last season? how many did lebron/?

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Doesn't matter how much pure evidence you post on Kobe not being clutch. His supporters REFUSE to buy it. That will never change.

ATX
01-08-2011, 01:39 PM
^^Ain't that the truth.

notoriouzzzz
01-08-2011, 01:43 PM
When your coach, players and everyone around the league knows ur are the best in clutch time. You'll get more opportunity to take those clutch shot... meaning u get to miss more also. Kobe's clutch moment is here's the ball, put it in the hole. James' clutch moment is here is the ball.. you don't trust ur outside shot therefore drive in, if they close out on you.. pass to an open man. Of course James would have missed less shots. It's different expectation for Kobe. If Kobe passes and the shot is missed.. he gets ripped for it. If James passes and the shot is missed.. they say he's unselfish. If u shoot 25 for 50.. it's still 50% shooting. By NBA standard that's amazing for a perimeter player but 25 shots are still missed. If Kobe is always in position to take those clutch shot then he's supposed to miss alot. It's just probability. The rings argument.. no matter how clutch you are.. if ur not doing something with it, no one remembers how u clutch you are.

barreleffact
01-08-2011, 02:01 PM
When your coach, players and everyone around the league knows ur are the best in clutch time. You'll get more opportunity to take those clutch shot... meaning u get to miss more also. Kobe's clutch moment is here's the ball, put it in the hole. James' clutch moment is here is the ball.. you don't trust ur outside shot therefore drive in, if they close out on you.. pass to an open man. Of course James would have missed less shots. It's different expectation for Kobe. If Kobe passes and the shot is missed.. he gets ripped for it. If James passes and the shot is missed.. they say he's unselfish. If u shoot 25 for 50.. it's still 50% shooting. By NBA standard that's amazing for a perimeter player but 25 shots are still missed. If Kobe is always in position to take those clutch shot then he's supposed to miss alot. It's just probability. The rings argument.. no matter how clutch you are.. if ur not doing something with it, no one remembers how u clutch you are.

I dont think the importance is set so much on number of shots he misses as much as it is on the percentage of shots he misses. His percentages can be pretty bad. 50% would be a dream for any player.

The problem with kobe IMO is that he is rarely open. He is constantly doubled on late game shots. To me that is a coaching error for not drawing up plays to optomize him. If Kobe still has 2 or more players in his face off an inbounds play, that is a terrible play call IMO. Even the most skilled will miss if set up to fail.

Is Kobe clutch? Of course! His reputation Precedes him. BUT it is fair to state his clutchness as overrated. I love the last line you wrote though. It is so true. Fans tend to argue with rings just for the fact of it, but haters tend to downplay when in truth rings matter a lot when evaluating players.

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Doesn't matter how much pure evidence you post on Kobe not being clutch. His supporters REFUSE to buy it. That will never change.

Cuz we actually watch him play

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:20 PM
I called him the D.Jeter of NBA and called his clutchness overrated a month ago to this day during a family sport debate, i love thinking for myself,no matter who agrees

This is his clutchness in nutshell: For those who dont 'watch' the games, he'll take 8-10 strait shots(mostly 3's)down the stretch and make 1,Then ESPN will run the clip of him hitting that '1' basket and say he is clutch by putting LA up in the game but wont mention he shot'em out the game(lead) and had to rely on that 1 shot made out of 8-10taken in last 4-5min of game...thats why i call it overrated clutchness, has he hit big shots? no doubt

He's won back to back tittles doing this??? WOW

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:27 PM
He's won back to back tittles doing this??? WOW
Kobe has put daggers and daggers in the hearts of many teams, not just in the regular season, but the playoffs also. He's clutch and he has 5 rings. nickdymez is correct here. Stop allowing silly hate override logic. PLEASE! I don't care if he did have Shaq and Gasol, without Kobe, Shaq would only have 2 rings and gasol would have nothing. It's that simple guys.

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:30 PM
Kobe has put daggers and daggers in the hearts of many teams, not just in the regular season, but the playoffs also. He's clutch and he has 5 rings. nickdymez is correct here. Stop allowing silly hate override logic. PLEASE! I don't care if he did have Shaq and Gasol, without Kobe, Shaq would only have 2 rings and gasol would have nothing. It's that simple guys.

This is all im saying. People let there hate for Kobe as a person mask the things that he does on the court. It seems like people block out all the good stuff and focus on the bad because they hate kobe. Im a die hard lakers fan, and sometimes kobe's attitude pisses me off. I get it. But i watch him play and he's amazing to watch.

arkanian215
01-08-2011, 02:32 PM
I agree. It's the percentages that count. Kobe's clutchness is definitely overrated.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:33 PM
This is all im saying. People let there hate for Kobe as a person mask the things that he does on the court. It seems like people block out all the good stuff and focus on the bad because they hate kobe. Im a die hard lakers fan, and sometimes kobe's attitude pisses me off. I get it. But i watch him play and he's amazing to watch.
Exactly. The off-the-court issues are irrelevant at this point. He's a proven winner, and people have to respect that. I don't see why this is so difficult for posters to comprehend. The man has five ****ing rings, for christ's sake.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:36 PM
I agree. It's the percentages that count. Kobe's clutchness is definitely overrated.
Who gives a damn about percentages. I'd rather shoot 38% from the field and win, than 50% and lose. He's tried that and he lost. BTW, if his clutchness is so overrated, why does he have 5 rings?

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 02:40 PM
Cuz we actually watch him play

haha, exactly what I mean. EVERYONE watches Kobe play dude. But the evidence is right there.

As I said, its like talking to a wall with you guys. You could show evidence that Kobe was single teamed and went 0-40, and you will turn it around somehow.

My comment was to the OP, who is wasting his time. Laker fans have bags and bags of excuses when it comes to defending Kobe. They just can't fathom that Kobe has indeed been blessed with the most roster support of any star in his career out of current players and has reaped the benefits of being a great player on a GREAT team and franchise.

Everyone has holes in their games. Kobe as well. He isn't nearly as clutch as many like to make him out to be. We have the numbers. Which trump your eyes.

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:41 PM
didnt Kobe have like 6 game winners last year alone?

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:42 PM
haha, exactly what I mean. EVERYONE watches Kobe play dude. But the evidence is right there.

As I said, its like talking to a wall with you guys. You could show evidence that Kobe was single teamed and went 0-40, and you will turn it around somehow.

My comment was to the OP, who is wasting his time. Laker fans have bags and bags of excuses when it comes to defending Kobe. They just can't fathom that Kobe has indeed been blessed with the most roster support of any star in his career out of current players and has reaped the benefits of being a great player on a GREAT team and franchise.

Everyone has holes in their games. Kobe as well. He isn't nearly as clutch as many like to make him out to be. We have the numbers. Which trump your eyes.

Wait... Give me a hole in kobe's game

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 02:43 PM
Who gives a damn about percentages. I'd rather shoot 38% from the field and win, than 50% and lose. He's tried that and he lost. BTW, if his clutchness is so overrated, why does he have 5 rings?

Shaq, Gasol, Phil, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Shaw, Artest, Bynum, Ariza, West, Buss, should I go on?

Kobe is a great player. Top 10 all time maybe. But he has also been blessed with major roster support the majority of his career, the best coach of all time, and a franchise with a winning culture.

To say Kobe is the reason for those 5 rings is completely laughable. He was a PART of them, not the reason

And you don't have to care about percentages. Just know, with 8 seconds to go, down 1, if you blow off all stats, and percentages historically documented, and FORCE the ball to Kobe, you have a 25% chance of winning.

dpospish
01-08-2011, 02:44 PM
Wait... Give me a hole in kobe's game

He misses a lot in clutch situations, and is a ball hog.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 02:44 PM
Wait... Give me a hole in kobe's game

are you serious? So Kobe has no flaws?

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 02:45 PM
and that is what you took from the post? haha
Kobe lawyers out strong today

arkanian215
01-08-2011, 02:47 PM
Who gives a damn about percentages. I'd rather shoot 38% from the field and win, than 50% and lose. He's tried that and he lost. BTW, if his clutchness is so overrated, why does he have 5 rings?

You can be good and still win those rings. 38% is relative. People make Kobe out to be the most clutch player. He isn't. That's the whole point of the article. While you watch all those buzzer beaters on sportscenter or on youtube, you forget that he misses 62% of the shots that are "clutch shot" attempts but he doesn't make them. I'm not saying he isn't a great player but seriously folks need be a little more open minded.

If a player takes 100 "clutch" shots and makes 40 of them and another takes 50 and makes 30 of them, who is more clutch? The former is what a lot of folks are saying just because they're thinking 40>30.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:50 PM
Shaq, Gasol, Phil, Fisher, Horry, Fox, Shaw, Artest, Bynum, Ariza, West, Buss, should I go on?

Kobe is a great player. Top 10 all time maybe. But he has also been blessed with major roster support the majority of his career, the best coach of all time, and a franchise with a winning culture.

To say Kobe is the reason for those 5 rings is completely laughable. He was a PART of them, not the reason

And you don't have to care about percentages. Just know, with 8 seconds to go, down 1, if you blow off all stats, and percentages historically documented, and FORCE the ball to Kobe, you have a 25% chance of winning.

OH PLLLLLLEEEEASE!!! What have all those guys done alone? Outside of Shaq, everyone else you mentioned would be nothing if it wasn't for Kobe. Kobe was a HUGE reason for their titles. It's easy for you to say Kobe didn't win without Shaq or Gasol, but that goes both ways man. There is noone else outside of maybe Wade I wouldtrust more to take the last shot more than Kobe Bryant. He's proven it time and time again. Please don't overstate the role players, because they are a product of Bryant being double, triple teamed.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:52 PM
You can be good and still win those rings. 38% is relative. People make Kobe out to be the most clutch player. He isn't. That's the whole point of the article. While you watch all those buzzer beaters on sportscenter or on youtube, you forget that he misses 62% of the shots that are "clutch shot" attempts but he doesn't make them. I'm not saying he isn't a great player but seriously folks need be a little more open minded.

If a player takes 100 "clutch" shots and makes 40 of them and another takes 50 and makes 30 of them, who is more clutch? The former is what a lot of folks are saying just because they're thinking 40>30.
OK, but at the end of the day it means nothing. He still hits shots when it matters, I've seen it too many times.

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 02:53 PM
He misses a lot in clutch situations, and is a ball hog.

hahahahahhahahahhahaha

arkanian215
01-08-2011, 02:56 PM
OK, but at the end of the day it means nothing. He still hits shots when it matters, I've seen it too many times.

That's not the point though. He does hit the shots that matter, but he's also missing a bunch that matter as well. Percentages are what matter and how they stack up against other player's percentages.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 02:59 PM
That's not the point though. He does hit the shots that matter, but he's also missing a bunch that matter as well. Percentages are what matter and how they stack up against other player's percentages.
I guess you have a point there. If the argument is percentages, then you're right. But I don't there are any players now that shoot great percentages in clutch situations, just because of the heat of the game.

boozdawg
01-08-2011, 03:00 PM
OH PLLLLLLEEEEASE!!! What have all those guys done alone? Outside of Shaq, everyone else you mentioned would be nothing if it wasn't for Kobe. Kobe was a HUGE reason for their titles. It's easy for you to say Kobe didn't win without Shaq or Gasol, but that goes both ways man. There is noone else outside of maybe Wade I wouldtrust more to take the last shot more than Kobe Bryant. He's proven it time and time again. Please don't overstate the role players, because they are a product of Bryant being double, triple teamed.


Yeah, Pau Gasol is a nobody. Get out of fantasy land dude :rolleyes:

hgtiger32
01-08-2011, 03:04 PM
zzzzzzzz,,, in before close

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:08 PM
OH PLLLLLLEEEEASE!!! What have all those guys done alone? Outside of Shaq, everyone else you mentioned would be nothing if it wasn't for Kobe. Kobe was a HUGE reason for their titles. It's easy for you to say Kobe didn't win without Shaq or Gasol, but that goes both ways man. There is noone else outside of maybe Wade I wouldtrust more to take the last shot more than Kobe Bryant. He's proven it time and time again. Please don't overstate the role players, because they are a product of Bryant being double, triple teamed.

did I say Kobe wasn't a factor in those rings? Nope. But you are very badly underrating all the help Kobe has had from his roster, GM, Coach, and Owner.
And again, if you don't trust anyone outside Wade to take a last second shot, than you win 25% of those games.
And do you really think all superstars don't get doubled and tripled in last second situations.........

Seriously, Kobe defenders act like he plays under all these circumstances that no other star can possibly do the same. Um, Kobe has been surrounded by more weapons the majority of his career, so those triple teams you are talking about are something you are making up in your head.

rickshaw
01-08-2011, 03:12 PM
I read an article about clutch performances over the past few years in the final 5 minutes of regulation or OT with the score within 5 pts and LeBron had tremendously better statistics than Kobe, although Kobe had 6 game winning shots during that time period. The fact of the matter was that LeBron had performed so well in those situations that his team didn't have many final possessions that were within a game winning shot.



http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:13 PM
I guess you have a point there. If the argument is percentages, then you're right. But I don't there are any players now that shoot great percentages in clutch situations, just because of the heat of the game.

sure there are players who shoot a much higher percentage than Kobe in late game win/loss scenarios. Melo is one of them for sure. As is Manu, LeBron, and a handful of other stars.

We have proof of these things. Its documented. Only irrational Kobe fans refuse to admit it.

How many of these threads have we had? To all posters attempting to shed light on Kobe not being the most "clutch" in the NBA, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. No matter how much evidence you post, no matter how many statistics you show that have Kobe waaaaaaay down the line as far as percentages of makes versus attempts in last second games, no matter how many specific games you bring up where Kobe literally shot his team out of a game, or missed a last second shot, they will never go, "huh, you know what, maybe I have overrated Kobe's so called "clutch" ability".

These threads are as old as the regurgitated excuses we all get to read every time they are posted

J-Relo
01-08-2011, 03:16 PM
and those ESPN guy (Rose and that always-hater-guy) put him as top clutch player...

SteBO
01-08-2011, 03:18 PM
did I say Kobe wasn't a factor in those rings? Nope. But you are very badly underrating all the help Kobe has had from his roster, GM, Coach, and Owner.
And again, if you don't trust anyone outside Wade to take a last second shot, than you win 25% of those games.
And do you really think all superstars don't get doubled and tripled in last second situations.........

Seriously, Kobe defenders act like he plays under all these circumstances that no other star can possibly do the same. Um, Kobe has been surrounded by more weapons the majority of his career, so those triple teams you are talking about are something you are making up in your head.
I said triple teamed to make a point. A lot of those players had their moments because they accepted a role. The only way those guys can play their roles, is if they're open and thats a product of all the attention fixated on Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol. I'm not trying to underate them, since they were all important factors in their success.

SteBO
01-08-2011, 03:21 PM
sure there are players who shoot a much higher percentage than Kobe in late game win/loss scenarios. Melo is one of them for sure. As is Manu, LeBron, and a handful of other stars.

We have proof of these things. Its documented. Only irrational Kobe fans refuse to admit it.

How many of these threads have we had? To all posters attempting to shed light on Kobe not being the most "clutch" in the NBA, YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. No matter how much evidence you post, no matter how many statistics you show that have Kobe waaaaaaay down the line as far as percentages of makes versus attempts in last second games, no matter how many specific games you bring up where Kobe literally shot his team out of a game, or missed a last second shot, they will never go, "huh, you know what, maybe I have overrated Kobe's so called "clutch" ability".

These threads are as old as the regurgitated excuses we all get to read every time they are posted
I guess forgot about Melo and Manu. I meant to say I didn't "know" if there were any efficient players in the clutch.

rickshaw
01-08-2011, 03:22 PM
hahahahahhahahahhahaha

i know right! like kobes got 5 rings lebron 0 end of discussion man.

SteveNash
01-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Using stats in "clutch" situations are always terrible. You're either working with a small sample size or defining a clutch situation when there really isn't one.

Regular season clutch ratings are laughable, there's little on the line (unless it's a play in game).

That's why I've always thought that clutch should just be a label, choke artist, clutch, or super clutch. Rating the best cluth player is just stupid and impossible to measure at this stage.

arkanian215
01-08-2011, 03:31 PM
I guess you have a point there. If the argument is percentages, then you're right. But I don't there are any players now that shoot great percentages in clutch situations, just because of the heat of the game.

Again it's how good those percentages are compared to other player's percentages. If the best percentage is 40%, then Kobe isn't that far off.

So far this season, Nowitzki has made 60% of his clutch shots. That's the best for guys who have greater than average FGA (16.3ish per 48 minutes). He's followed by Tyrus Thomas, Terry and Stoudemire.

For guys who take at least average 3PA (4.2 per 48 minutes), Bosh makes 75% of them (followed by Bibby, Parker, Terry).

For guys who take at least average FTA (9.2 per 48 minutes), Udrih makes 100%. He's followed by Kirilenko, Billups and Nash.

You can look for yourself for this season and previous seasons. http://www.82games.com/ It's on the right column.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:32 PM
I said triple teamed to make a point. A lot of those players had their moments because they accepted a role. The only way those guys can play their roles, is if they're open and thats a product of all the attention fixated on Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol. I'm not trying to underate them, since they were all important factors in their success.

what point were you trying to make? He doesn't get triple teamed dude.
And are you still talking about his elite roster support for the ring years? Cmon now, we are done with that one

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:33 PM
Using stats in "clutch" situations are always terrible. You're either working with a small sample size or defining a clutch situation when there really isn't one.

Regular season clutch ratings are laughable, there's little on the line (unless it's a play in game).

That's why I've always thought that clutch should just be a label, choke artist, clutch, or super clutch. Rating the best cluth player is just stupid and impossible to measure at this stage.

"clutch" is a pathetic term anyways, thrown around without context. So any argument involving it is pointless imo

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:34 PM
i know right! like kobes got 5 rings lebron 0 end of discussion man.

you do know TEAMS win rings, not players, right?

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 03:36 PM
you do know TEAMS win rings, not players, right?

And players make there teams better. Lebron doesn't.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2011, 03:38 PM
And players make there teams better. Lebron doesn't.

how them Cav's doing right now?

and you know very well I have a better shot than you of proving LeBron gave his team more wins individually than Kobe did. LeBron has been the most important player to his team's success out of any player I can ever remember, excluding MJ

arkanian215
01-08-2011, 03:38 PM
And players make there teams better. Lebron doesn't.

:speechless:

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 04:01 PM
And players make there teams better. Lebron doesn't.

posts like this make me hate PSD and other sports fans. If lebron doesn't make his team mates better, then Kobe makes his worse

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 04:05 PM
posts like this make me hate PSD and other sports fans. If lebron doesn't make his team mates better, then Kobe makes his worse

except kobes rings.

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 04:06 PM
how them Cav's doing right now?

and you know very well I have a better shot than you of proving LeBron gave his team more wins individually than Kobe did. LeBron has been the most important player to his team's success out of any player I can ever remember, excluding MJ

MJ AND KOBE HAVE WON CHAMPIONSHIP RINGS GOT DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LEBRON HAS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:puke::puke:

You mean to tell me the lakers would have won a ring without kobe?

boozdawg
01-08-2011, 04:06 PM
except kobes rings.

Robert Horry has 6 rings


Horry > Kobe

nickdymez
01-08-2011, 04:11 PM
Robert Horry has 6 rings


Horry > Kobe > Lebron

fixed

Avenged
01-08-2011, 04:13 PM
What a pathetic topic. Nothing but a bunch of Kobe haters getting together and jerking each other off. There's more to the game than stats, dipshits.

Pretty much seems like it doesn't it? There was just a thread about this not too long ago, and the same things that were said in that thread are being said in here.


you do know TEAMS win rings, not players, right?

Don't you get bored of saying this over and over again?

I mean, I'm bored myself reading it in every thread there is about Kobe. :laugh2:

Some people just don't know that winning a championship takes a total team effort.

Hustlenomics
01-08-2011, 04:31 PM
lol
13 seasons later and they still gotta go around collecting stats to probe points
whether you like it or not, kobe is a hall of famer, top 5 of all time. and will go home with a very good clutch reputation.

sorry

lmao yea right

koLohe2133
01-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Ok.

I'm from LA, raised a celtics fan (thank you dad and Larry bird).

Don't like Kobe, never have...never will. 6 rings. And HE WAS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR IN EACH CHAMPIONSHIP. dissect the "data" all you like. He is a winner.

Clutch doesn't necessarily mean scoring at the end. Could mean a clutch pass, or even moreso a clutch rebound (of which he had PLENTY) in game 7 against the celtics last year. Truth be told, he is one of the greatest basketball talents to walk the earth. Period. This is the one and only time I will defend him but this thread is ridiculous. I remember seeing a poll of NBA GMs Nd coaches asking who would they want taking the last shot and it was Kobe. Nuff said......

And FYI Kobe never opted out to go team up with iverson, or melo, or lebron, or WHOEVER.

Haters: PLEASE GIVE IT UP.

Go celtics!

J-Relo
01-08-2011, 04:51 PM
Pretty much seems like it doesn't it? There was just a thread about this not too long ago, and the same things that were said in that thread are being said in here.



Don't you get bored of saying this over and over again?

I mean, I'm bored myself reading it in every thread there is about Kobe. :laugh2:

Some people just don't know that winning a championship takes a total team effort.

Just please state you opinion (yes or no):

A) Kobe is currently not at his best.
B) Kobe also makes bad decisions.
C) Kobe also has has some bad games when it matters.

etc...

J-Relo
01-08-2011, 04:52 PM
ok.

I'm from la, raised a celtics fan (thank you dad and larry bird).

Don't like kobe, never have...never will. 6 rings. And he was a major contributor in each championship. Dissect the "data" all you like. He is a winner.

Clutch doesn't necessarily mean scoring at the end. Could mean a clutch pass, or even moreso a clutch rebound (of which he had plenty) in game 7 against the celtics last year. Truth be told, he is one of the greatest basketball talents to walk the earth. Period. This is the one and only time i will defend him but this thread is ridiculous. I remember seeing a poll of nba gms nd coaches asking who would they want taking the last shot and it was kobe. Nuff said......

And fyi kobe never opted out to go team up with iverson, or melo, or lebron, or whoever.

Haters: Please give it up.

Go celtics!

5.

koLohe2133
01-08-2011, 04:54 PM
"I have missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot... and missed. And I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

The GOAT MICHAEL JORDAN. and someone please say lebron is better than him. It will seriously make my day knowing that you are dumber than a ********** rock

koLohe2133
01-08-2011, 04:56 PM
5.

Your right 5. Typo. Please don't think I think he skating to magic number 6

SteveNash
01-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Robert Horry has 6 rings


Horry > Kobe

Horry has 7 unless he sold one of them.

Horry > Kareem, Jordan, Pippen, Cousy > Kobe, Magic, Rodman > Morrison > LeBron

Kobes a Killer
01-08-2011, 05:13 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBron. The only reason I hate on LePron is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LeBron antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBum. The only reason I hate on LePrick is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LePukes antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

this is the most ridiculous post i have ever read. Get off kobe's dick. get your own idea's instead of spewing Espn garbage on here. The bolded part is absurd as well. did you forget that kobe quit on his team against the suns? pretty selfish if you ask me. demanding to be traded multiple times and then recinding multiple times? those antics far outweigh lebron playing out his contract and signing as a free agent somewhere else

blastmasta26
01-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBum. The only reason I hate on LePrick is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LePukes antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime
:laugh:

king4day
01-08-2011, 05:26 PM
Is there a summary of the OP?

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Is there a summary of the OP?

the bolded parts

Sadds The Gr8
01-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBum. The only reason I hate on LePrick is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LePukes antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

:facepalm:

Hustlenomics
01-08-2011, 05:29 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBum. The only reason I hate on LePrick is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LePukes antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

Jordan,Kareem,Magic,Bird,Duncan>Kobe

poleandreel
01-08-2011, 05:32 PM
Jordan,Kareem,Magic,Bird,Duncan,shaq,oscar,wilt,ru ssell>Kobe

fixed

J-Relo
01-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBum. The only reason I hate on LePrick is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LePukes antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

1. I don't. He might end as one, but i just can't say he is. When you have guys like Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Robertson, Kareem, Russell and some other players it's just too hard to go and place Kobe in top 5. Well when it's all said and done, when Kobe plays his last game. Maybe then. Not now. I might consider him as top 5, I can't confirm that.

2. Please don't forget that he didn't deserve last finals MVP before saying what, according you, he actually did. Not hating. Gasol played better, that's it.

3. Actually Kobe's prime was spectacular because it actually lasted quite long. Including the road from a real ball-hog to a pretty nice team player.

4. Okay, why those stupid names? "Lebum" > "Leprick" > "Lepuke"... That just makes your whole post, as I say, less valuable. And... double standards?.. You just make points and then destroy them.

Kobes a Killer
01-08-2011, 06:01 PM
Those nicknames are just as bad as ones he already has, King James...Give me a break

smith&wesson
01-08-2011, 06:06 PM
poor kobe, every ones on his case right now.

wait untill the play offs, the lakers dont care about the regular season anymore. maybe they should start though.

Kobes a Killer
01-08-2011, 06:11 PM
I hate people on this site, KOBE 5 LEBRON 0, nuff said screw all you Kobe haters, hate on greatness all you want atleast, Kobes gonna finish his career 18-20 seasons with the same team, he'll end up the greatest Laker of all time. It's people like Kobe Reggie and Duncan that are doing it right

shep33
01-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Still, if there is a last shot scenario I want kobe taking the shot moreso then Lebron... I just think if I need a bucket Kobe can get it from anywhere on the floor as opposed to anyone else in the league, maybe outiside of Dirk.

shep33
01-08-2011, 06:38 PM
haha and yeah why is everyone on Kobe's case lately? Everyone is downing the Lakers not even half way through the season and they're what 26-11 or something like that and a game out of 2nd in the west?

blastmasta26
01-08-2011, 06:40 PM
I hate people on this site, KOBE 5 LEBRON 0, nuff said screw all you Kobe haters, hate on greatness all you want atleast, Kobes gonna finish his career 18-20 seasons with the same team, he'll end up the greatest Laker of all time. It's people like Kobe Reggie and Duncan that are doing it right
I love Kobe's game, but you got to calm down. The ring argument is irrelevant, just compare the teams Kobe's been on to LeBron's. And don't act like Kobe is so loyal either.

Kobes a Killer
01-08-2011, 07:04 PM
Whatever man, so Kobe demanded a trade, people do and say things they regret all the time, some a heck of a lot more than others. Anyways that team was godawful, much much much more awful than LeBrons Cavs, it looked like they weren't doing a thing to help Kobe, so if they weren't going to get him help he wanted to play for a winning team and there's nothing wrong with that. Well guess what Kobe waited it out and the organization was patient enough to wait for the steal they were looking for, and soon enough it's going to be Jordan 6 Kobe 6 Wade 1 LeBron 0. Doesn't taste good does it

DitchDat
01-08-2011, 07:16 PM
True. People think he is a great clutch player because we saw him make a lot of shots. This only because he has attempted an ENORMOUS amount of them. People tend to forget all the misses, because ESPN doesn't highlight misses. Those quickly disappear in the video archives. Again, people love drama, and that is why makes get remembered. Kobe has attempted a lot, so obviously has made quite a few.

madiaz3
01-08-2011, 07:17 PM
Kobe deserved his last finals MVP, game 7 doesn't devalue an entire series.

I think you guys are crazy to think that it isn't amazing that you can give the ball to Kobe with enough time to get off a shot and have at a minimum a 38% chance of instantly winning the game off a JUMPSHOT. The % is a ton more impressive when you realize how large the sample size is compared to the careers of Lebron/Melo, etc.

Korman12
01-08-2011, 07:27 PM
Whenever you have a great player that makes a handful of clutch plays, people will always forget the few times when they don't come through.

LakersMaster24
01-08-2011, 07:33 PM
Another LeBron hater who has nothing to say in favor of Kobe and brings the rings argument...
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 6 against Thunder, but Pau Gasol made the layup after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he missed game winner in game 5 against Phoenix, but Ron Artest made the shot after that.
I guess Kobe was really clutch last year, when he shot 6-24 in game 7 against Celtics, but Ron Artest made 3 and Vujacic 2 FT in clutch time and they won.

Wow another Lebron fanboy :facepalm:

The only important clutch shot Lebron made in his career in playoffs was the one against the Magic thats it.
I think Kobe was clutch when he simply destroyed the Suns in Game 5 I believe, and was simply unstoppable in the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter.
Those 6 buzzer beaters, during the regular season.
When Kobe stepped up during the Finals GAME 7 and got 15 rebounds, which prevented the CELTICS from getting second chance points.
Kobe is MORE clutch than Lebron by a mile.

Ban me idc.

LakersMaster24
01-08-2011, 07:42 PM
Without Kobe Lakers would make the 2nd round max, and get eliminated easily in like 5 games.
Lebron on Cavs = No Championship.
Cavs without Lebron = No Championship.

So whats the point of having 63 wins in the season, and winning back to back MVPs if you still cant win a championship...
You guys are underrating Cavs roster...
West, Shaq, Jamison, Varejao, Gibson, Big Z...those are all nice compliments to a team.

LakersMaster24
01-08-2011, 07:46 PM
OH PLLLLLLEEEEASE!!! What have all those guys done alone? Outside of Shaq, everyone else you mentioned would be nothing if it wasn't for Kobe. Kobe was a HUGE reason for their titles. It's easy for you to say Kobe didn't win without Shaq or Gasol, but that goes both ways man. There is noone else outside of maybe Wade I wouldtrust more to take the last shot more than Kobe Bryant. He's proven it time and time again. Please don't overstate the role players, because they are a product of Bryant being double, triple teamed.

:clap::clap::clap:

Thanks to people like "dnewguy" I hate every single Heat fan.

You are the first Heat fan that understands the value of Kobe and the first Heat fan I actually respect...

LakersMaster24
01-08-2011, 07:47 PM
lmao yea right

And Who you think is top 5 all time?

Iverson? :D

smith&wesson
01-08-2011, 07:59 PM
i LOVE kobe, i have love for lebron too... with that being said are we going to tear up lebron when he is 32 and aging as well ?

show some love for the aging stars of this league and try to have a longer lasting memory then a gold fish. kobe's getting old. let the man age in peace he has acomplished enough to have your respect.

and yes he is clutch. he is bound to miss some shots he aint a robot. If you knew 100 % with out a shadow of doubt that kobe was gonna hit the game winning shot every time, why the hell would you watch the game for >? im just saying.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-08-2011, 08:13 PM
Yes, we get it. Kobe sucks, Pau is a better player, Kobe is not a leader and Fisher is the leader who got them the past two championships, Kobe did nothing for Shaq, Kobe choked in big moments, he only wins cause the greatest talent in the league has been bestowed upon him, he is a ball hog, and he rapes white woman. I got it 19 threads ago on why he is overrated.

Avenged
01-08-2011, 09:46 PM
Yes, we get it. Kobe sucks, Pau is a better player, Kobe is not a leader and Fisher is the leader who got them the past two championships, Kobe did nothing for Shaq, Kobe choked in big moments, he only wins cause the greatest talent in the league has been bestowed upon him, he is a ball hog, and he rapes white woman. I got it 19 threads ago on why he is overrated.

Exactly..

Hustlenomics
01-08-2011, 09:51 PM
And Who you think is top 5 all time?

Iverson? :D

no i just showed a list of people better than him if you scrolled down laker boy

HeatVsHate
01-09-2011, 12:13 AM
Well, thanks for sharing, but that's not what we're talking about. I know that when reason and logic fail, just pointing to the rings is a Laker fan's strategy, but it doesn't work for this. There are literally 100s of articles articulating how he is a quantity over quality type clutch player. Yes, he has a ton of game winning shots, but he also has a ton of game winning shot misses. He doesn't play as well throughout the duration of late 4th quarter clutch time as a lot of other super stars. These are just facts. More reading, for those who want to be objective about this...

Not one defense of Kobe here has been empirical or really even intelligent.

Yes, last year he made 6 game winning shots, but yes, from 2004-2009 he missed more (http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm) game winning shots than anyone else in the league. A list of makes is only telling with a list of the total attempts.

http://www.slate.com/id/2255932/
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222

LeBron has been more clutch the last few years.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Kobe is one of the greatest big shot players of all time, and one of the greatest clutch players period of all time as well...but setting him on a pedestal all by himself just isn't right.

I'm still dying to see a LIST of all of his game winning shot ATTEMPTS. Curious to see how many misses go along with all those makes.

I have to QUOTE this post for those who doesn't want to read the throughout the threads.

This is a pretty good CHALLENGE from an objective poster. Any takers? I have yet to see a single KOBE fan who made an objective rebuttal since the beginning of this thread.

Frankly, I am also very surprised that LBJ actually has a case in being better CLUTCH shooter than KOBE, Before this thread I put Kobe as the best clutch shooter of his time, only next to MJ overall. But I clearly see that Kobe is not that Clutch after all.

TO the Kobe fans: Stop posting in this thread if you only want to say is he has 5 rings or he is a proven champ, this thread is not about that. The thread is simply a discussion about KOBE's overrated (no pun intended) clutchness as according to some research statistical studies of ESPN, 82games.com etc..

This discussion is not in any way trying to disprove that KOBE is not -
1.hall of famer
2.one of the greatest of all times
3. has 5 rings
4. better team player ( are you serious?)
5. Etc..

Stick to the topic and it will be much better discussion.

nickdymez
01-09-2011, 01:10 AM
This topic is stupid from the start. If he wasn't clutch, then why does every person on earth know he's getting the ball at the end of the game? Why do coaches draw plays up for him at the end of the game... Respect a great player and stop trying to hate him.

Kobes a Killer
01-09-2011, 01:32 AM
Hahahaha Kobe haters hate on Kobes game, LeBron haters hate on his crappy attitude and his antiques. I forgot Kobe was so over rated just trade the bum away already. To the dude who said Kobe missed a bunch of game winners well he took a lot too, and Jordan missed something like 26 game winning attempts. If there's one person in this league who's gonna take your last it's Kobe, I'm pretty sure most GMs agree (I don't have a source but I'm sure it was on a survey last year about who they would want to take the last shot for them), but hey what do they know

blastmasta26
01-09-2011, 01:39 AM
This topic is stupid from the start. If he wasn't clutch, then why does every person on earth know he's getting the ball at the end of the game? Why do coaches draw plays up for him at the end of the game... Respect a great player and stop trying to hate him.

I don't see it as hate, just clearing up the misconception that Kobe's the most clutch player in the league. He certainly is a player to worry about in the closing minutes of a game, but he's behind others.


Whatever man, so Kobe demanded a trade, people do and say things they regret all the time, some a heck of a lot more than others. Anyways that team was godawful, much much much more awful than LeBrons Cavs, it looked like they weren't doing a thing to help Kobe, so if they weren't going to get him help he wanted to play for a winning team and there's nothing wrong with that. Well guess what Kobe waited it out and the organization was patient enough to wait for the steal they were looking for, and soon enough it's going to be Jordan 6 Kobe 6 Wade 1 LeBron 0. Doesn't taste good does it

You still didn't address the fact about the differences in Kobe and LeBron's teams.


Without Kobe Lakers would make the 2nd round max, and get eliminated easily in like 5 games.
Lebron on Cavs = No Championship.
Cavs without Lebron = No Championship.

So whats the point of having 63 wins in the season, and winning back to back MVPs if you still cant win a championship...
You guys are underrating Cavs roster...
West, Shaq, Jamison, Varejao, Gibson, Big Z...those are all nice compliments to a team.

They're decent pieces at best and far from the talent Kobe's had. LeBron has never had a prime Shaq or Gasol along with the other Lakers role players and a coach like Phil Jackson.

LakersMaster24
01-09-2011, 01:45 AM
no i just showed a list of people better than him if you scrolled down laker boy

I think a lot of people would agree that Kobe is better than Bird.

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 01:49 AM
Anyone who doesn't think Kobe is a top 5 player of all time is just plain stupid... Just stop hating on facts, he has it all; the rings, the mvps, the all star selections, a slam dunk championship under his belt, the finals MVP (robbed of finals MVP the 3rd title he won, or atleast should have been co MVP with shaq for that 3rd ring), he's 9th all time in scoring and it's very likely barring any injury that he'll finish top 3-5 all time, only player to average 35 a game since Jordan, he's got the 81, he's got the 61 on Dallas (LBJs career high is 56 or 55...pfft sad), he holds multiple Laker records... I can go all day long if you like. The bottom line is stats dont always mean everything. I'm not gonna be arrogant and say Kobe is the best player in the league right now because he's not, sadly it's LeBron. The only reason I hate on LePron is because of his behavior, besides cheating on his wife Kobe doesn't have **** on LeBron antiques. I believe Kobe has the most game winners of all tone after what he did last season, sorry I don't have the facts but some other guy made a thread on it a while a go. Anyways LeBron can't touch Kobes clutchness I dont care how hard you hate, atleast people have a reason for hating on lebron, stop hating on Kobe cause he great. "Oh Kobes had some
real bad games" hahahahahaha so has Jordan lebron wade magic so has everyone like are you joking me, just get over this fact right here....
Kobes Prime>>>>>>>>>LeBrons Prime

Why would anyone take this post seriously? You site no facts besides Kobe's team success, and crap on LeBron's name every chance you get, taking you out of the rational discussion here, and then make a statement to end it that you have absolutely no way of proving. Quite the contrary actually. Kobe's peak individual years aren't as good as LeBron's. Pretty easy to prove not only statistically, but we are seeing what James meant to that putrid roster.

Anyways, have fun with the rest of the thread. I love how some of you call others "haters", when you give an example of being such nearly half the time you post.

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:00 AM
this topic continues to be a joke. Kobe supporters laugh off the insurmountable evidence showing that their hero is not the clutch player they thought he was. They stick to their last ditch effort, his rings. When in fact, rings are a team accomplishment, not an individuals. I honestly can not wait until LeBron is sitting on a couple of rings, and they make up more excuses. And if I even read that LeBron had to go find Wade for help, I will immediately respond that Kobe was player B on his first 3 rings, and needed Gasol, who has actually been statistically more important, for his other 2.

Great players need help. Kobe has had the most of our generation. Go figure he has 5 rings.

Facts are facts. Its right there in the historical numbers. There are more clutch players then Kobe whether you would like to define it as last 5 minutes in tight games, last second shots, or anything else you can come up with.

Keep pulling out the rings argument. Never gets old. But its still a wet paper bag argument to fall back on, and always will be.

And who said top 5 ever? Really??? haha. Kobe will most likely finish top 10 of all time, but he aint cracking that top 5.

blastmasta26
01-09-2011, 02:00 AM
Why would anyone take this post seriously? You site no facts besides Kobe's team success, and crap on LeBron's name every chance you get, taking you out of the rational discussion here, and then make a statement to end it that you have absolutely no way of proving. Quite the contrary actually. Kobe's peak individual years aren't as good as LeBron's. Pretty easy to prove not only statistically, but we are seeing what James meant to that putrid roster.

Anyways, have fun with the rest of the thread. I love how some of you call others "haters", when you give an example of being such nearly half the time you post.
Thank you. :clap:

daleja424
01-09-2011, 02:02 AM
facts are facts...

Kobe has been hyped as an ultra clutch player... but the stats say that he maybe isnt the closer he is cracked up to be...

there is just no debating the stats...

kobe24>lebron23
01-09-2011, 02:05 AM
Yeah thats why everyone would take Kobe in the clutch every single one in NBA history besides MJ ofcourse lol smh to the haters!!

nickdymez
01-09-2011, 02:06 AM
hahahaahhahahahah@ hatin kobe.....

Closer doesnt mean taking the shot with 3 seconds left on the clock.. You people realiz that right?

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-09-2011, 02:07 AM
Talk about arbitrary. My clutch stats would only include a team up or down by 2 points with less than 2 minutes to play. Someone else's definition of clutch might only include games that have a real meaning. Like a playoff game.

Yesterday, the Lakers had a tight game with the Hornets. They were within 5 points with under 5 minutes to go. Not once did I feel tense, or anxious about what was going to happen. But according to an arbitrary stat created by 82games.com, I am supposed to believe that everything Kobe did in that game in January, is going to tell me whether or not he is a big time moment player. I'm sorry, but I do not buy it. And I never will. Because there have been so many times when I was nervous, where I was anxious, when the moment felt big and important to me, and Kobe came through. Those moments, those memories will never be erased or replaced by a made up stat.

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:08 AM
Yeah thats why everyone would take Kobe in the clutch every single one in NBA history besides MJ ofcourse lol smh to the haters!!

no, Kobe fans would take him in the clutch. You see anyone who is presented the stats on his late game play actually changes their opinion, unless they are blind Kobe fans.
Me, I have a handful of players I will take in the last few minutes over Kobe, and another handful I would give the last second shot to. And guess what? Historical data tells me I am winning more than you

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:09 AM
hahahaahhahahahah@ hatin kobe.....

Closer doesnt mean taking the shot with 3 seconds left on the clock.. You people realiz that right?

um, yes we realize that. And Kobe isn't the best with just a few minutes left in tight games either.

What is your next retort?


"hahahahahahahahahahah, he has 5 rings!"

so original

daleja424
01-09-2011, 02:10 AM
Its called the conformational bias...

when Kobe steps up the reaction is, I knew he would...he always does

when Kobe doesnt step up the reaction is, wow Im suprised, he is usually so good

Even if he fails more than he succeeds, we have been told that he is so clutch that when he does make a clutch shot it further strengthens that idea in our mind, and we tend to dismiss the cases quickly when he isnt clutch.

LakersMaster24
01-09-2011, 02:10 AM
this topic continues to be a joke. Kobe supporters laugh off the insurmountable evidence showing that their hero is not the clutch player they thought he was. They stick to their last ditch effort, his rings. When in fact, rings are a team accomplishment, not an individuals. I honestly can not wait until LeBron is sitting on a couple of rings, and they make up more excuses. And if I even read that LeBron had to go find Wade for help, I will immediately respond that Kobe was player B on his first 3 rings, and needed Gasol, who has actually been statistically more important, for his other 2.

Great players need help. Kobe has had the most of our generation. Go figure he has 5 rings.

Facts are facts. Its right there in the historical numbers. There are more clutch players then Kobe whether you would like to define it as last 5 minutes in tight games, last second shots, or anything else you can come up with.

Keep pulling out the rings argument. Never gets old. But its still a wet paper bag argument to fall back on, and always will be.

And who said top 5 ever? Really??? haha. Kobe will most likely finish top 10 of all time, but he aint cracking that top 5.

As you say championships are a team effort. Then you counter yourself by saying Kobe had a Shaq. Well Shaq also had Kobe, Fisher, Fox, Horry etc. Then we gotta stop counting rings as a players achievement. Which means we cant say Russell is a Top 5 player of all time because he has 10 rings...

Kobe will be a top 5 player of all time when its all done. He will be at least 5th all time leading scorer. He will have about 6 or hopefully 7 rings. I just dont see how that makes him non-top 5? :confused:
My list

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:11 AM
Talk about arbitrary. My clutch stats would only include a team up or down by 2 points with less than 2 minutes to play. Someone else's definition of clutch might only include games that have a real meaning. Like a playoff game.

Yesterday, the Lakers had a tight game with the Hornets. They were within 5 points with under 5 minutes to go. Not once did I feel tense, or anxious about what was going to happen. But according to an arbitrary stat created by 82games.com, I am supposed to believe that everything Kobe did in that game in January, is going to tell me whether or not he is a big time moment player. I'm sorry, but I do not buy it. And I never will. Because there have been so many times when I was nervous, where I was anxious, when the moment felt big and important to me, and Kobe came through. Those moments, those memories will never be erased or replaced by a made up stat.


first off, they are not made up stats. They are tracked, and kept for us to look at. Facts are facts.

Second, its not like anyone is saying Kobe sucks in the clutch here. He is absolutely one of the best in the NBA over the past 10 years in the clutch. But there are better. Its right in the numbers.

I would be very happy with Kobe on my team in the clutch, but I would be happier with a few others. That is the point man

kobe24>lebron23
01-09-2011, 02:13 AM
this topic continues to be a joke. Kobe supporters laugh off the insurmountable evidence showing that their hero is not the clutch player they thought he was. They stick to their last ditch effort, his rings. When in fact, rings are a team accomplishment, not an individuals. I honestly can not wait until LeBron is sitting on a couple of rings, and they make up more excuses. And if I even read that LeBron had to go find Wade for help, I will immediately respond that Kobe was player B on his first 3 rings, and needed Gasol, who has actually been statistically more important, for his other 2.

Great players need help. Kobe has had the most of our generation. Go figure he has 5 rings.

Facts are facts. Its right there in the historical numbers. There are more clutch players then Kobe whether you would like to define it as last 5 minutes in tight games, last second shots, or anything else you can come up with.

Keep pulling out the rings argument. Never gets old. But its still a wet paper bag argument to fall back on, and always will be.

And who said top 5 ever? Really??? haha. Kobe will most likely finish top 10 of all time, but he aint cracking that top 5.


You might have a great basketball mind but Kobe not cracking the top 5?? Please dude he will be in the top 5 after he gets #6 this year maybe even 2nd behind Jordan when it's all said and done and some will debate he'll be the greatest of all time

LakersMaster24
01-09-2011, 02:13 AM
no, Kobe fans would take him in the clutch. You see anyone who is presented the stats on his late game play actually changes their opinion, unless they are blind Kobe fans.
Me, I have a handful of players I will take in the last few minutes over Kobe, and another handful I would give the last second shot to. And guess what? Historical data tells me I am winning more than you

What player thats playing currently in the NBA would you pick over Kobe to take the last shot?

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:14 AM
As you say championships are a team effort. Then you counter yourself by saying Kobe had a Shaq. Well Shaq also had Kobe, Fisher, Fox, Horry etc. Then we gotta stop counting rings as a players achievement. Which means we cant say Russell is a Top 5 player of all time because he has 10 rings...

Kobe will be a top 5 player of all time when its all done. He will be at least 5th all time leading scorer. He will have about 6 or hopefully 7 rings. I just dont see how that makes him non-top 5? :confused:
My list

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt

never countered myself, not sure what you are speaking of.

And my top 5 look a bit different. You are also basing off speculation (the Lakers look nothing like a championship team right now, but I am not naive enough to fall for some early season slump, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt).

Rings are a team accomplishment. All time rankings have a lot more factored in. HOW they won is very important.

Hawkeye15
01-09-2011, 02:15 AM
What player thats playing currently in the NBA would you pick over Kobe to take the last shot?

Melo or Manu anyday. And that SF from Miami.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-09-2011, 02:17 AM
first off, they are not made up stats. They are tracked, and kept for us to look at. Facts are facts.

Second, its not like anyone is saying Kobe sucks in the clutch here. He is absolutely one of the best in the NBA over the past 10 years in the clutch. But there are better. Its right in the numbers.

I would be very happy with Kobe on my team in the clutch, but I would be happier with a few others. That is the point man

Fine, not made up. But arbitrary none the less.

nickdymez
01-09-2011, 02:17 AM
um, yes we realize that. And Kobe isn't the best with just a few minutes left in tight games either.

What is your next retort?


"hahahahahahahahahahah, he has 5 rings!"

so original

wow.. Im done.. what are you gonna say now "Lebron is more clutch"

LakersMaster24
01-09-2011, 02:18 AM
Melo or Manu anyday. And that SF from Miami.

I would like to see those "clutch stats" you guys are talking about of melo and ginobili...

kobe24>lebron23
01-09-2011, 02:19 AM
no, Kobe fans would take him in the clutch. You see anyone who is presented the stats on his late game play actually changes their opinion, unless they are blind Kobe fans.
Me, I have a handful of players I will take in the last few minutes over Kobe, and another handful I would give the last second shot to. And guess what? Historical data tells me I am winning more than you

Oh hawkeye give it up already bro I don't really give a damn about what u say all I know is 80% of the players and coaches picked Kobe as the player they would want taking the last shot...
There was even an article how Kobe is the mos feared in the clutch besides jordan and they said they would choose Jordan with 7 seconds or less and Kobe with 3 seconds or less

nickdymez
01-09-2011, 02:19 AM
WOOOOOOOOWWWW.. Did i just read these haters say they would take Melo or manu over kobe in the clutch????

daleja424
01-09-2011, 02:19 AM
Fine, not made up. But arbitrary none the less.

then show me the arbitrary stats you have that back up Kobe?

The three stats I have seen are buzzer beaters, last 5 minutes of close games, and 4th quarter stats... all of which support that Kobe is not the most clutch player in the game. What kind of stat do you suggest we look at to show us Kobe's greatness as a closer?

LakersMaster24
01-09-2011, 02:20 AM
never countered myself, not sure what you are speaking of.

And my top 5 look a bit different. You are also basing off speculation (the Lakers look nothing like a championship team right now, but I am not naive enough to fall for some early season slump, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt).

Rings are a team accomplishment. All time rankings have a lot more factored in. HOW they won is very important.

So, Bill Russell. 10 rings. Never a Finals MVP. Had a roster filled with hall of famers. Does THIS go into the "How" he won? Maybe those 10 rings arent as impressive after all

Kobes a Killer
01-09-2011, 02:28 AM
Hahahahaha Manu or Melo oooook take er easy

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-09-2011, 02:48 AM
then show me the arbitrary stats you have that back up Kobe?

The three stats I have seen are buzzer beaters, last 5 minutes of close games, and 4th quarter stats... all of which support that Kobe is not the most clutch player in the game. What kind of stat do you suggest we look at to show us Kobe's greatness as a closer?

Here it is. A game that is within 3 points, 2 minutes and 32 seconds left, team you are playing has to have at least some red in their uniform, the opposing teams name has to be one syllable, and the game has to be played on a Tuesday only. Arbitrary enough for you?

pedrofan45
01-09-2011, 02:48 AM
I'm set with Ray Allen

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-09-2011, 02:52 AM
I'm set with Ray Allen

Ray Allen? He had two of the worst finals games in the history of the league. And that while not even having the defense focus on him. Manu even sounds like a better answer right now.

championships
01-09-2011, 03:40 AM
Damn! The man just past Oscar Robinson and people still find a way to discredit him. The man is passing legends up. When all said and done the man will be a legend.. Get over it little kids.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-09-2011, 03:51 AM
Melo or Manu anyday. And that SF from Miami.

Are you looking at this years stats? No way you would take Lebron. He has been horrible. Dirk is the most clutch player according to the numbers. Melo is a turnover machine when the game gets tight. Terry may be the most clutch wing player this year.

RapOZo
01-09-2011, 04:02 AM
so why one of the best coaches of all times just draws plays for Kobe Bryant down the stretch, why if you ask any commentator or nba annalist who they want with the ball in crunch time they go for Kobe, then they all got it wrong??
apparently a few users of PSD have more knowledge than professionals nba annalists.

Jewelz0376
01-09-2011, 04:11 AM
You know whats funny...In the last 3 or 4 years...95% of every ex player/coach thats ever spoke about who they would want taking the last shot or who is the most clutch player in the league gives the same answer....KOBE... but yet you got people on this forum who probably never played at a level higher than hs saying that its a fact that Kobe isn't the best closer in the game..

Some people here need to actually watch the games instead of just going to websites and looking up stats to be the tell all of their opinion...

Jewelz0376
01-09-2011, 04:14 AM
I'm set with Ray Allen

Yea well you better hope you got some guys to set screens for him because you can't just give Allen the ball and say go to work in the final secs..cause he can consistently create a good shot for himself with the ball in his hands

J-Relo
01-09-2011, 06:59 AM
You know whats funny...In the last 3 or 4 years...95% of every ex player/coach thats ever spoke about who they would want taking the last shot or who is the most clutch player in the league gives the same answer....KOBE... but yet you got people on this forum who probably never played at a level higher than hs saying that its a fact that Kobe isn't the best closer in the game..

Some people here need to actually watch the games instead of just going to websites and looking up stats to be the tell all of their opinion...

Why Kobe is the most common pick? It's because he has made most of those. Just not at the best percentage, which doesn't matter for most of us. Though it's quite important.

HeatVsHate
01-09-2011, 08:06 AM
so why one of the best coaches of all times just draws plays for Kobe Bryant down the stretch, why if you ask any commentator or nba annalist who they want with the ball in crunch time they go for Kobe, then they all got it wrong??
apparently a few users of PSD have more knowledge than professionals nba annalists.

Answer: Simple... That coach don't have a better choice in his team. Kobe is the best closer among LA, but again, until you have proven the given STATISTICS in this thread wrong, you are all punching on air (not hitting any mark) prove you claims pleaaase, I too want to see if kobe actually has the right to the claim.

Again, before this thread I believe that kobe is the most clutch player in NBA today, but I still can't see any of the kobe fans giving a solid argument against the given stats. And don't say stats don't mean **** please, because between this actual stats and your baseless "claims" it would be stupid to just take your words.


Damn! The man just past Oscar Robinson and people still find a way to discredit him. The man is passing legends up. When all said and done the man will be a legend.. Get over it little kids.

Again please don't go off topic, YES! Kobe bryant is a legend now, even if he retire now he is already a HOF guaranteed, No question about kobe's greatness! BUT that is not what this thread is all about. Its about people's (including me) misconception about kobe being the most clutch player today. Please understand the thread topic to make this discussion more productive.


then show me the arbitrary stats you have that back up Kobe?

The three stats I have seen are buzzer beaters, last 5 minutes of close games, and 4th quarter stats... all of which support that Kobe is not the most clutch player in the game. What kind of stat do you suggest we look at to show us Kobe's greatness as a closer?

Then you have nothing, compared to the research of some here your claim is very soft at best. Can't just take your words for it, when these people has given some good supported arguments in this thread. No offense but can anyone do better than that?


Oh hawkeye give it up already bro I don't really give a damn about what u say all I know is 80% of the players and coaches picked Kobe as the player they would want taking the last shot...
There was even an article how Kobe is the mos feared in the clutch besides jordan and they said they would choose Jordan with 7 seconds or less and Kobe with 3 seconds or less

Again sad to say its all words, and that article if you would read it again is another opinion of other opinion, not backed by any data whatsoever. I am not looking for pure evidence or something but there has been some very good arguments in this thread and backed up by hard data, so words vs data is incomparable.

No offense to Kobe fans here but you really have back up your words or just stop and accept that kobe is not that clutch as you and I have 1st believed. It does not take anything away from his greatness.

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 08:40 AM
I do not understand the ignorance in this thread on the part of kobe fans...

1) Nobody is saying he is not clutch. It is saying that he is not as clutch as other players in the league. Whether you believe that or not, it is true and backed up y statistical evidence from more than one source.

2) Nobody is saying kobe isn't great and no one is hating on him. All of you kobe fans continue to avoid the topic of the post by saying "you are all hating on kobe's greatness" or by bashing lebron to say kobe is better meanwhile that has nothing to do with the thread.

3) AND FOR EVERYONE SAYING "WHY DO ALL OF THE PLAYERS AND COACHES/GM'S SAY THEY WANT KOBE TAKING THE LAST SHOT...READ THE LAST LINE OF THE ARTICLE.

HERE: Kobe might be the best basketball player alive, and he very well could hit a game-winning shot in the NBA Finals. He's doesn't, however, have a unique ability to score in the clutch. The only reason he's The Closer is that his teammates, his coach, and the sports media have chosen him to assume the role.

It clearly answers your question. So, if you want to argue, come up with an logical argument or some empirical proof

bolts4ever
01-09-2011, 09:01 AM
I do not understand the ignorance in this thread on the part of kobe fans...

1) Nobody is saying he is not clutch. It is saying that he is not as clutch as other players in the league. Whether you believe that or not, it is true and backed up y statistical evidence from more than one source.

2) Nobody is saying kobe isn't great and no one is hating on him. All of you kobe fans continue to avoid the topic of the post by saying "you are all hating on kobe's greatness" or by bashing lebron to say kobe is better meanwhile that has nothing to do with the thread.

3) AND FOR EVERYONE SAYING "WHY DO ALL OF THE PLAYERS AND COACHES/GM'S SAY THEY WANT KOBE TAKING THE LAST SHOT...READ THE LAST LINE OF THE ARTICLE.

HERE: Kobe might be the best basketball player alive, and he very well could hit a game-winning shot in the NBA Finals. He's doesn't, however, have a unique ability to score in the clutch. The only reason he's The Closer is that his teammates, his coach, and the sports media have chosen him to assume the role.

It clearly answers your question. So, if you want to argue, come up with an logical argument or some empirical proof

Just because someone chooses means nothing, the player still has to PRODUCE. They choose Kobe because he has consistantly performed in the "crunch time" under the most difficult of circumstances in every arena in the league.

Lebron has not performed consistantly under such circumstances and thats why hes is not known as a clutch player.

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 09:21 AM
Just because someone chooses means nothing, the player still has to PRODUCE. They choose Kobe because he has consistantly performed in the "crunch time" under the most difficult of circumstances in every arena in the league.

Lebron has not performed consistantly under such circumstances and thats why hes is not known as a clutch player.

lebron is proven to be more clutch by the article so that point in invalid. Also, lebron has shown up on every big stage this year so that also falsifies your argument. When wade missed the game winner 2 days ago, lebron took over in overtime

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 09:23 AM
I do not understand the ignorance in this thread on the part of kobe fans...

1) Nobody is saying he is not clutch. It is saying that he is not as clutch as other players in the league. Whether you believe that or not, it is true and backed up y statistical evidence from more than one source.

2) Nobody is saying kobe isn't great and no one is hating on him. All of you kobe fans continue to avoid the topic of the post by saying "you are all hating on kobe's greatness" or by bashing lebron to say kobe is better meanwhile that has nothing to do with the thread.

3) AND FOR EVERYONE SAYING "WHY DO ALL OF THE PLAYERS AND COACHES/GM'S SAY THEY WANT KOBE TAKING THE LAST SHOT...READ THE LAST LINE OF THE ARTICLE.

HERE: Kobe might be the best basketball player alive, and he very well could hit a game-winning shot in the NBA Finals. He's doesn't, however, have a unique ability to score in the clutch. The only reason he's The Closer is that his teammates, his coach, and the sports media have chosen him to assume the role.

It clearly answers your question. So, if you want to argue, come up with an logical argument or some empirical proof

SO the fact that he has consistently shown the ability to knock down a shot when it matters most has nothing to do with it? LOL

This is what I love about you stat heads, do you even watch games, or just check out the stats after.

Thing is MJ missed a ton of shots. Do I hear anything about that? You people are constantley bringing this up as if to say someone is more clutch then him. Is there right now? No.

Don't even mention The Bron and his stats, because any player who blatently gives up on his team as he did last year in the playoffs cannot even be considered. Sorry! ASk the guys that matter. Bird, Magic, MJ, Kareem they all say the same thing.

What is the point of this thread anyway? Besides to start an argument?

Are you saying there is someone more clutch in NBA? Because please, I wouls really like to hear this...

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 09:27 AM
SO the fact that he has consistently shown the ability to knock down a shot when it matters most has nothing to do with it? LOL

This is what I love about you stat heads, do you even watch games, or just check out the stats after.

Thing is MJ missed a ton of shots. Do I hear anything about that? You people are constantley bringing this up as if to say someone is more clutch then him. Is there right now? No.

Don't even mention The Bron and his stats, because any player who blatently gives up on his team as he did last year in the playoffs cannot even be considered. Sorry! ASk the guys that matter. Bird, Magic, MJ, Kareem they all say the same thing.

What is the point of this thread anyway? Besides to start an argument?

Are you saying there is someone more clutch in NBA? Because please, I wouls really like to hear this...


1) kobe gave up on his team against phoenix in the playoffs. Forget about that Lebron hater? LOL that is the definition of blatantly giving up.

2) I guess your illiterate and can't read since the article clearly says there are numerous players who are more clutch.

3) Kobe fails more often than he succeeds in clutch time situations...but again, your illiterate and did not read the article.

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 09:33 AM
1) kobe gave up on his team against phoenix in the playoffs. Forget about that Lebron hater? LOL that is the definition of blatantly giving up.

2) I guess your illiterate and can't read since the article clearly says there are numerous players who are more clutch.

3) Kobe fails more often than he succeeds in clutch time situations...but again, your illiterate and did not read the article.

Sorry BRO, but I don't waste time reading garbage. However if you would like to answer my question I would be glad to tell you why you are wrong.

Refresh my memory, was that the series where he hit a game winner?

So did MJ whats your point? None?

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 09:34 AM
For the record I do think The Bron is a good player.

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 09:42 AM
1) kobe gave up on his team against phoenix in the playoffs. Forget about that Lebron hater? LOL that is the definition of blatantly giving up.

2) I guess your illiterate and can't read since the article clearly says there are numerous players who are more clutch.

3) Kobe fails more often than he succeeds in clutch time situations...but again, your illiterate and did not read the article.

Sorry BRO, but I don't waste time reading garbage. However if you would like to answer my question I would be glad to tell you why you are wrong.

Refresh my memory, was that the series where he hit a game winner?

So did MJ whats your point? None?

you didnt read the article because you can't handle the truth. And here you go: http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.baldwin/2006/05/11/kobe_bryant_s_game_7_no_shot_pout_the_mo

proof of his selfish giving up

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 09:55 AM
[QUOTE=ignorance=bliss;16231341]

you didnt read the article because you can't handle the truth. And here you go: http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.baldwin/2006/05/11/kobe_bryant_s_game_7_no_shot_pout_the_mo

proof of his selfish giving up

LOL! This is your proof!

WOW.

Your right.


Oh and BTW...WHO THE **** IS CHRIS BALDWIN?!

Oh... Um no one? Yah ok.

No gives a **** what a no name writer has to say bud. Sorry.

Hey and that's worse then MJ nearly ripping Scottie Pippen's face off for taking a meaningless last shot? LOL

Do me a favor, in the words of Will Ferrell, "just shut your mouth, because you sound stupid."

SteBO
01-09-2011, 09:59 AM
Kobe is clutch, and it isn't overrated. Stats aren't important, especially when it comes down to winning.

Manu Ginobli - 4 rings

Kobe Bryant - 5 rings

Melo - 0 rings

People say Melo's more clutch than Kobe, but what does he have to show for it? Nothing. So I'll say it again, Kobe's clutchness is not overrated. PERIOD.

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Kobe is clutch, and it isn't overrated. Stats aren't important, especially when it comes down to winning.

Manu Ginobli - 4 rings

Kobe Bryant - 5 rings

Melo - 0 rings

People say Melo's more clutch than Kobe, but what does he have to show for it? Nothing. So I'll say it again, Kobe's clutchness is not overrated. PERIOD.

mad respect, SteBo

ldawg
01-09-2011, 10:10 AM
What a stupid argument, This is all an opinion. There is no way all these numbers really tell the true tale of a clutch player. The same argument goes if jackson is the best coach in the nba. point is if you look at the win total sheet Kobe and phill got the job done. no game is won in the fist 3 quarters unless its a blow out. Many argue that it don't come down to a last shot for lebron because he is so good, well what about the ones he lost? where is the rings? There are many games Lakers could have lost in the 4th and 5 titles they would have lost if it was not for Bryant having the ball in his hands its not like lakers had a good point guard. Yes Kobe may not be the best shooter in the game but when they a down in the 4th he don't give up as long as there is seconds on the clock there is a chance, i can't say the same for lebron given his pass off to mo Williams in the playoffs he looked defeated. Kobe sank many game changing or one would say big shot but he has been in the game a long time and played on the big stage plenty so he has taken alot and has missed plenty, he can't make them all you take the good with the bad. Another example of his confidence late in the game was on display for the gold metal. While Wade had the fresh legs he was their best performer ahead of both Lebron and Kobe.r Well that was until they almost lost, guess who took over even thou he was shooting like ****? mr clutch was on display. and one wonder why he has 5 rings? total BS. When the game was on the line the young healthy Bryant was or still is the man you want with the ball in is hands., he don't have to take the last shot but he will make the right play most of the times. Another example was just last year his pass off to a wide open Artest after he was trap. Just like the ones he gave Horry, Fisher, Shaw, etc most players would have panic. one would tell you there is no pressure like the one in the playoffs. So to others while he may not be your first choice he is mine data can't change that i watch the games not stats. stats a misleading i know i work with them. Or can the media plant a seed of what they want me to think. i have eyes the same way they do the same way they watch.

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 10:40 AM
What a stupid argument, This is all an opinion. There is no way all these numbers really tell the true tale of a clutch player. The same argument goes if jackson is the best coach in the nba. point is if you look at the win total sheet Kobe and phill got the job done. no game is won in the fist 3 quarters unless its a blow out. Many argue that it don't come down to a last shot for lebron because he is so good, well what about the ones he lost? where is the hard wear? There are many games Lakers could have lost in the 4th and 5 titles they would have lost if it was not for Bryant. Yes Kobe may not be the best shooter in the game but when they a down in the 4th he don't give up as long as there is seconds on the clock there is a chance, i can't say the same for lebron given his pass off to mo Williams in the playoffs he looked defeated. Kobe sank many game changing or one would say big shot but he has been in the game a long time and played on the big stage plenty so he has taken alot and has missed plenty, he can't make them all you take the good with the bad. Another example of his confidence late in the game was on display for the gold metal. While Wade had the fresh legs he was their best performer ahead of both Lebron and Kobe.r Well that was until they almost lost, guess who took over even thou he was shooting like ****? mr clutch was on display. and one wonder why he has 5 rings? total BS. When the game was on the line the young healthy Bryant was or still is the man you want with the ball in is hands., he don't have to take the last shot but he will make the right play most of the times. Another example was just last year his pass off to a wide open Artest after he was trap. Just like the ones he gave Horry, Fisher, Shaw, etc most players would have panic. one would tell you there is no pressure like the one in the playoffs. So to others while he may not be your first choice he is mine data can't change that i watch the games not stats. stats a misleading i work with them.


Long. But I had to read it. BTW you hit it on the head.


This is PSD though buddy!


STATISTICS MEAN EVERYTHING! EVEN MORE THAN CHAMPIONSHIPS!

Thats why The Bron is the greatest player to ever set foot on earth duh. Stats!

bolts4ever
01-09-2011, 10:42 AM
:cool:
lebron is proven to be more clutch by the article so that point in invalid. Also, lebron has shown up on every big stage this year so that also falsifies your argument. When wade missed the game winner 2 days ago, lebron took over in overtime

Look at this guy your proving my point.

1.)Lebrons had 2 clutch moments in his career that really matter

First: epic performance against Detroit in the ECF. Got swept in the Finals
Second:3 pt shoot he hit to win a game 2 against Orlando in Conference Semis

I can name more two Kobe performances from playoffs 2010 alone
LAL 111 vs Utah 110 Game 4 Kobe 35 pts
LAL 111 vs Phoenix 103 Game 6 Kobe 37 pts

2.) Lebron has been clutch for 3 months and you wanna compare him to Kobe who's been cluth for 13-14 seasons. Laughable!!!

3) most important IF LEBRON IS SOOO CLUTCH WHY DID WADE TAKE THE GAME WINNING SHOT!!!!!!! Game...Set...Match.. and boom goes the dynamite!!!!:cool::cool::cool::cool:ME

Minimal
01-09-2011, 10:55 AM
:cool:

Look at this guy your proving my point.

1.)Lebrons had 2 clutch moments in his career that really matter

First: epic performance against Detroit in the ECF. Got swept in the Finals
Second:3 pt shoot he hit to win a game 2 against Orlando in Conference Semis

I can name more two Kobe performances from playoffs 2010 alone
LAL 111 vs Utah 110 Game 4 Kobe 35 pts
LAL 111 vs Phoenix 103 Game 6 Kobe 37 pts

2.) Lebron has been clutch for 3 months and you wanna compare him to Kobe who's been cluth for 13-14 seasons. Laughable!!!

3) most important IF LEBRON IS SOOO CLUTCH WHY DID WADE TAKE THE GAME WINNING SHOT!!!!!!! Game...Set...Match.. and boom goes the dynamite!!!!:cool::cool::cool::cool:ME
Click here and get a cookie (http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/OVER9000.png)
1. What these 35 and 37 points got to do with clutch? Maybe u consider clutch when he missed 2 game winners against Thunder and Phoenix? or 6-24 from the field in game 7?
2. Since 2003 LeBron hit like 17 clutch shots, while Kobe only 14
3. Maybe because all eyes were on LeBron and Wade had a better look at the shot after Chris Bosh set the screen for him? He had a wide open opportunity. This play was designed for all 3 to hit the last shot, it happened that Wade was in the best position to hit the last shot and got the pass.

Kobe dickriders...they are so stupid.

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 10:57 AM
:cool:

Look at this guy your proving my point.

1.)Lebrons had 2 clutch moments in his career that really matter

First: epic performance against Detroit in the ECF. Got swept in the Finals
Second:3 pt shoot he hit to win a game 2 against Orlando in Conference Semis

I can name more two Kobe performances from playoffs 2010 alone
LAL 111 vs Utah 110 Game 4 Kobe 35 pts
LAL 111 vs Phoenix 103 Game 6 Kobe 37 pts

2.) Lebron has been clutch for 3 months and you wanna compare him to Kobe who's been cluth for 13-14 seasons. Laughable!!!

3) most important IF LEBRON IS SOOO CLUTCH WHY DID WADE TAKE THE GAME WINNING SHOT!!!!!!! Game...Set...Match.. and boom goes the dynamite!!!!:cool::cool::cool::cool:ME

you fail to mention his 3 game winners against the wizards in consequtive years. You fail to mention how he took over the game with less than 2 minutes left against the bulls last year numerous times.

ldawg
01-09-2011, 10:57 AM
Click here and get a cookie (http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/OVER9000.png)
1. What these 35 and 37 points got to do with clutch? Maybe u consider clutch when he missed 2 game winners against Thunder and Phoenix? or 6-24 from the field in game 7?
2. Since 2003 LeBron hit like 17 clutch shots, while Kobe only 14
3. Maybe because all eyes were on LeBron and Wade had a better look at the shot after Chris Bosh set the screen for him? He had a wide open opportunity. This play was designed for all 3 to hit the last shot, it happened that Wade was in the best position to hit the last shot and got the pass.

Kobe dickriders...they are so stupid.this is total bs what is a clutch shot?

ldawg
01-09-2011, 10:57 AM
the media turn people ********.

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 11:01 AM
the media turn people ********.

yea people like you. only kobe fans think he is the most clutch bc they hear espn say it so they agree. they cannot listen to reason or logical thought. everyone in this thread who is not a kobe fan agree's with the article

ignorance=bliss
01-09-2011, 11:05 AM
yea people like you. only kobe fans think he is the most clutch bc they hear espn say it so they agree. they cannot listen to reason or logical thought. everyone in this thread who is not a kobe fan agree's with the article

And what does that say? lol

You agree with some salty Kobe hater, whose team probably got ousted by Kobe? lol Because that's all this article is.

In your opinion then, who is more clutch then Kobe Bryant?

ldawg
01-09-2011, 11:16 AM
yea people like you. only kobe fans think he is the most clutch bc they hear espn say it so they agree. they cannot listen to reason or logical thought. everyone in this thread who is not a kobe fan agree's with the articlei watch the games kobe has taken some of the most difficult shots and made them. He has also made the right plays late in the game with the ball in his hands. I never said he was the most clutch player but he is my choice i want with the ball late in the game. There are plenty players perform well under pressure. Paul pierce, Healthy gilbert, Manu, Billups, Wade etc. No such thing as most clutch it cannot be measured so its a matter of choice. But an Article to label Lebron most cluct is stupid its just espn planting a seed. its a monkey see monkey do world every one will now say lebron is most clutch.

barreleffact
01-09-2011, 11:25 AM
you fail to mention his 3 game winners against the wizards in consequtive years. You fail to mention how he took over the game with less than 2 minutes left against the bulls last year numerous times.

ddnt he sweep the wizards all 3 years? if so there is no such thing as clutch

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 11:26 AM
And what does that say? lol

You agree with some salty Kobe hater, whose team probably got ousted by Kobe? lol Because that's all this article is.

In your opinion then, who is more clutch then Kobe Bryant?

players that I would rather have in order of their perceived clutchness:

1) Carmelo
2) Lebron
3) Kobe/Wade

Lebron makes great passes in clutch situations, plays amazing D, rebouns well, and always makes the right play. Kobe will jack up a contested 3 with 3 people on him. Not a smart play. Sometimes the best play is to give it to the open guy and i have seen lebron do that way more than kobe

poleandreel
01-09-2011, 11:27 AM
ddnt he sweep the wizards all 3 years? if so there is no such thing as clutch

No it was a 4-2 win both years

xbrackattackx
01-09-2011, 11:34 AM
Kobe haters make me laugh.

I try to like all the great players in the NBA but PSD makes it so hard to like...

Wade,Rose and Lebron.


Really hope Melo and Marc Gasol go to NY!

J-Relo
01-09-2011, 12:00 PM
Kobe haters make me laugh.

I try to like all the great players in the NBA but PSD makes it so hard to like...

Wade,Rose and Lebron.


Really hope Melo and Marc Gasol go to NY!

As far as I have read I haven't seen more than few "Kobe haters" in this tread and they left the discussion after making their first post. Most of the people posting, as you say, against Kobe, make reasonable points but somehow it's you that just don't want to even consider...

Lebron is not the best clutch player, it was just said he has better percentage than Kobe.

If the game is on the line, what are the players i would like to have:
Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Manu, Wade, Pierce (in no particular order) and Lebron... (I probably missed few)

Statistically Kobe is not the best clutch player, but! he has greatest experience on it, that's why people pick him.

RocketPower2010
01-09-2011, 12:11 PM
What a pathetic topic. Nothing but a bunch of Kobe haters getting together and jerking each other off. There's more to the game than stats, dipshits.


1.) funny how you failed to mention Kobe dropped 32pts 16 in the 3rd qrt alone and hit every big shoot besides the game winner for the Lakers.

2.) Cant Make em all especially fadeway 3's with 2 guys on you. but what about game 6 a closeout game on the road KOBE had about 35-40 pts and hit about 5 BACKBREAKERS in the 4th qrt.

3.) Everybody loves to bringing up Kobes 6-24 and kills him HE HAD 23pts & 15 REBS. AGAINST the CELTICS TO WIN THE FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! and who was the Finals MVP????

But HOW About Lebron????

CAVS VS CELTICS 2008 ECFinals
Game 1: 2-18 11% FG and 10 Turn-Overs 12 PTS!!!! LOSS!!
Game 2: 6-24 25% FG and 7 Turn-Overs 21PTS!! LOSS

did they win this series??????
CRICKET! CRICKET! real quiet now huh!!!

4.) The only reason ARTEST was open was cause KOBE WAS DBL TEAMED.

and on VuJACIC's FT's BOSTON TRIPLE TEAMED KOBE TO MAKE SURE HE DIDINT GET THE BALL on the inbounds!!!!

COME CORRECT NEXT TIME BRO!!! wit real INFO STOP HATIN ON KOBE aka Mr. Rings

Neutral fan here, just a bit confused. Is it about the stats or is it not? Settle on one please and stop flip flopping only when it favors your point. If you believe it's not about the stats then stop bringing out the individual game performance (including rings). If you believe it is about the stats then stop denying other people when they show you stats. Have a fair argument.

blastmasta26
01-09-2011, 05:28 PM
I don't understand how nearly every Laker fan is throwing the term "Kobe hater" out there so frequently. Saying Kobe isn't the hands-down best clutch player in the league is far from hate, in fact pretty much everyone is acknowledging the fact that he is a phenomenal player, and a great clutch one too, just not the undisputed best.

lakerboy
01-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Lebron wont even take the FTs at the end of games. Fail!!!!

Minimal
01-09-2011, 05:43 PM
Lebron wont even take the FTs at the end of games. Fail!!!!

:crazy:

magichatnumber9
01-09-2011, 05:47 PM
Lebron wont even take the FTs at the end of games. Fail!!!!You couldn't of thought of something better then Laker Boy:facepalm: Lebron sucks at the clutch so I am with you on that.

masalex1205
01-09-2011, 05:53 PM
they fail so they can succeed

+1

kobe24>lebron23
01-09-2011, 08:22 PM
Click here and get a cookie (http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/OVER9000.png)
1. What these 35 and 37 points got to do with clutch? Maybe u consider clutch when he missed 2 game winners against Thunder and Phoenix? or 6-24 from the field in game 7?
2. Since 2003 LeBron hit like 17 clutch shots, while Kobe only 14
3. Maybe because all eyes were on LeBron and Wade had a better look at the shot after Chris Bosh set the screen for him? He had a wide open opportunity. This play was designed for all 3 to hit the last shot, it happened that Wade was in the best position to hit the last shot and got the pass.

Kobe dickriders...they are so stupid.


Says the heat bandwagon fan and dick riding leprince fan

kobe24>lebron23
01-09-2011, 08:25 PM
yea people like you. only kobe fans think he is the most clutch bc they hear espn say it so they agree. they cannot listen to reason or logical thought. everyone in this thread who is not a kobe fan agree's with the article

So I guess 90% of coaches and players are laker fans :facepalm:

rickshaw
01-09-2011, 11:44 PM
you do know TEAMS win rings, not players, right?


i was joking

rickshaw
01-10-2011, 01:29 AM
SO the fact that he has consistently shown the ability to knock down a shot when it matters most has nothing to do with it? LOL

"While Bryant was fourth in the NBA in game-winners (14) over that period—behind LeBron James, Vince Carter, and Ray Allen—his .250 game-winning shooting percentage was below the league average of .298. That .250 mark was also the second-worst of anyone with at least six game-winning baskets"


Don't even mention The Bron and his stats, because any player who blatently gives up on his team as he did last year in the playoffs cannot even be considered. Sorry! ASk the guys that matter. Bird, Magic, MJ, Kareem they all say the same thing.

"Instead, we harp on his infamous following game, where KB “quit” in the second half. Strange that fans are willing to dismiss the botched heave, in favor of a bizarre moralistic narrative where Bryant failed out of spite. The unreasonable Puritanical screeching about Kobe’s Game 7 reminds me of the unhinged tumult that followed LeBron’s Game 5."



Are you saying there is someone more clutch in NBA? Because please, I wouls really like to hear this...

Yes, these people just dont play on the best TEAM, so they cant use the rings = clutch theory that Kobe lovers cling to.

C-Style
01-10-2011, 02:23 AM
Kobe air-balls clutch 3 pointers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis

Lebron air-balls clutch free throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i--mrQzEl14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJZA3OPaAIc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxT46ROgI50

bolts4ever
01-10-2011, 04:55 AM
Neutral fan here, just a bit confused. Is it about the stats or is it not? Settle on one please and stop flip flopping only when it favors your point. If you believe it's not about the stats then stop bringing out the individual game performance (including rings). If you believe it is about the stats then stop denying other people when they show you stats. Have a fair argument.


He wanted stats so I gave him stats, everyone stayed on Kobe about his 6-24 performance in game 7. Soo I decided to look up some of Lebrons most important games and see how admirably he performed.

So Lebron fans you guys are really telling me you think Lebron is the most clutch player in the game????

I pose this question to opposing fans Not Heat or Laker Fans!!!

with the game on the line whos the player you most hate to see with the ball in their hands with an opportunity to win the game????

ignorance=bliss
01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
"While Bryant was fourth in the NBA in game-winners (14) over that period—behind LeBron James, Vince Carter, and Ray Allen—his .250 game-winning shooting percentage was below the league average of .298. That .250 mark was also the second-worst of anyone with at least six game-winning baskets"



"Instead, we harp on his infamous following game, where KB “quit” in the second half. Strange that fans are willing to dismiss the botched heave, in favor of a bizarre moralistic narrative where Bryant failed out of spite. The unreasonable Puritanical screeching about Kobe’s Game 7 reminds me of the unhinged tumult that followed LeBron’s Game 5."



Yes, these people just dont play on the best TEAM, so they cant use the rings = clutch theory that Kobe lovers cling to.


Thats all great. However, if you asked 90% of choaches in the league who they would want taking there last shot it would be Kobe. Or who you would hate to see taking a last shot iagainst you, it's always Kobe. I've heard Jerry Sloan say it, Scott Skiles, Greg Popovich,(listed off the very top of my head.) and many more all say the same damn thing.

So you know what I think I am going to take the word of NBA coaches who are around the game and the players more then you and I, over some guy who likes to post stat after stat to prove his point.

Stats are nice and all, but they never tell the whole story. Nice stats will get you all the MVP's you want, however it's not gonna win you a Ship.

Niro
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

yeah i guess lebron isnt clutch at all and kobe does everything sooo much better than lebron in the clutch

younggunn113
01-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Different players, but I take KB. The thing I don't like about Lebron is he is too unselfish. I feel like he is more likely to drive and kick if he cant get to the rim and the game could fall in someone like Carlos Arroyo's hands. Kobe doesn't go all the way to the rim, his spot is the elbow. He can get that shot off anytime he wants, he just has to hit it. People can debate this all they want, but you're not going to get people to change their minds. After reading that article, I'm still taking Kobe and its not close. These arguments are redundant.

anjoe29
01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
statistics means a lot.. but you cannot determine clutchness by just statistics.... kobe is a winner and a proven closer... enough said

xbrackattackx
01-10-2011, 11:44 AM
As far as I have read I haven't seen more than few "Kobe haters" in this tread and they left the discussion after making their first post. Most of the people posting, as you say, against Kobe, make reasonable points but somehow it's you that just don't want to even consider...

Lebron is not the best clutch player, it was just said he has better percentage than Kobe.

If the game is on the line, what are the players i would like to have:
Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, Manu, Wade, Pierce (in no particular order) and Lebron... (I probably missed few)

Statistically Kobe is not the best clutch player, but! he has greatest experience on it, that's why people pick him.

I am not saying Kobe is the best. I think Manu is the scariest this season. But a lot of fans just hate on Kobe to hate on him, Just like some people do Lebron on your team.

rickshaw
01-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Thats all great. However, if you asked 90% of choaches in the league who they would want taking there last shot it would be Kobe. Or who you would hate to see taking a last shot iagainst you, it's always Kobe. I've heard Jerry Sloan say it, Scott Skiles, Greg Popovich,(listed off the very top of my head.) and many more all say the same damn thing.

So you know what I think I am going to take the word of NBA coaches who are around the game and the players more then you and I, over some guy who likes to post stat after stat to prove his point.

Stats are nice and all, but they never tell the whole story. Nice stats will get you all the MVP's you want, however it's not gonna win you a Ship.

Stats help paint a better picture of who the better PLAYER is. stats dont win championships because teams do. The only thing Kobe has on Lebron the last 2-3 years is having a great supporting cast

Hawkeye15
01-10-2011, 03:28 PM
Kobe haters make me laugh.

I try to like all the great players in the NBA but PSD makes it so hard to like...

Wade,Rose and Lebron.


Really hope Melo and Marc Gasol go to NY!

you have to admit, if you are not a Laker fan, PSD makes you hate Kobe as well....

Be fair here.

Hawkeye15
01-10-2011, 03:32 PM
this thread is spinning wheels. Those who provide evidence that Kobe is not indeed the most clutch players are called haters, and thrown the rings argument at, and those who give neutral opinions are being ignored.
Closed