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D Roses Bulls
01-07-2011, 11:50 PM
This article is not actually saying he won't sign with the Knicks, just that it's very unlikely.


Last night ESPN.com posted an update on the Carmelo Anthony trade talks, and between that and an article yesterday stating that Donnie Walsh plans on resigning Wilson Chandler, Knick fans (and some writers) clearly don’t understand that due to the salary cap, we can’t keep Chandler, Gallo and others, PLUS add Melo. The confusion lies in a misunderstanding of what’s known as “Bird Rights” (named after Larry Bird), which allows a team to go over the salary cap to sign their own free agents. Many, including pathetically the New York Post, have stated that then the Knicks could just sign Melo as a free agent and then give Chandler a big new contract. It doesn’t quite work that way.

Let’s check out what Larry Coon, NBA capologist expert, writes:

31. How much do free agents count against their team’s salary cap?

The free agent amount depends on the player’s previous salary and what kind of free agent he is:
Kind of free agent Previous salary Free agent amount
Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract Below the average salary 300% of his previous salary*

So this year Wilson Chandler is making $2,130,482, which is below the NBA salary average (which is $5+ million), meaning over the summer, before we sign him to a contract, he’ll count for $6,391,446. Let’s look at what our salaries look like for this year and next, courtesy of ShamSports’ excellent site:

Player 2010/2011 2011/2012
Amare Stoudemire $16,486,611 $18,217,705
Eddy Curry $11,276,863 N/A
Raymond Felton $7,000,000 $7,560,000
Ronny Turiaf $4,000,000 $4,360,000
Timofey Mozgov $3,567,096 $3,343,896
Danilo Gallinari $3,304,560 $4,190,182
Kelenna Azubuike $3,300,000 N/A
Wilson Chandler $2,130,482 $3,099,851*
Anthony Randolph $1,965,720 $2,911,231
Roger Mason $1,400,000 N/A
Toney Douglas $1,071,000 $1,145,640
Bill Walker $854,389 $916,100*
Shawne Williams $854,389 N/A
Andy Rautins $600,000 $788,872
Landry Fields $473,604 $788,872

Total salaries: $58,434,714 $44,222,498

The two salaries with asterisks next to them aren’t included in the $44,222,498 total at the bottom. With Chandler, that amount is what his one-year qualifying offer would be, which is the minimum that the Knicks can sign him for without renouncing his rights. However, that amount only is used for cap purposes if Chandler actually signs a contract for that little, which is highly unlikely. So instead, the $6,391,446 mentioned above would need to be added. The asterisk next to Bill Walker is because the team has the option of whether to keep him or not. At that price, considering he’s actually been used and you can’t get a player for much cheaper, I imagined we’d keep him.

One other minor thing is that every team must have a minimum of 13 players, so if you’re below that amount then “phantom” players getting paid the minimum (around $450k each) need to be added. So with only 11 players, we’d need to add one phantom to determine how much cap room we have to sign that 13th free agent player (aka Melo). And actually, the way Shawne Williams is playing, we’d probably want to keep him, so since he has non-Bird rights, his salary hold would be 120% of what he’s making this year, or $1,025,267, instead of that phantom player. That’d leave us at $52,555,311.

This past year the salary cap was slightly over $58 million. The year before it was $57+ million, and the year before that it had been back up at over $58 mill. Since it hasn’t dramatically increased in any of the recent years, and with a new collective bargaining agreement coming this summer that’s expected to be worse, we’re talking best case scenario is the cap is at like $60 million. Leaving us with under $8 million to offer Anthony. It’s hard to imagine Anthony accepting that little (particularly when you compare that to the $65 million 3-year deal he can get if he extends with Denver or whatever team acquires him this year).

To clear up enough space to offer Melo the max, Knick prez Donnie Walsh would need to basically give away Ronny Turiaf, Gallinari and say Anthony Randolph for 2nd round picks/trade exceptions. In other words, even if we wait for the summer, we’ll still need to gut the team to get Melo. Now after we sign Melo, we can then offer Chandler far more than the $6 mill in cap hold, so we won’t need to worry about him leaving. Or if we renounce the rights to Chandler, then maybe if we just get rid of Anthony Randolph, we’d be close enough to the max for Melo. However, as mentioned above, yesterday Donnie Walsh stated he was definitely gonna re-sign Chandler.

Not only is it financially impossible to sign Melo to the max this summer without gutting our team, but there’s also the very big question of whether or not we’ll even be able to get to that point. Based on a lot of the comments on the ESPN article, many fans don’t understand that New Jersey will only take Melo if he does an extend-and-trade (a version of the more familiar sign-and-trade). This isn’t him getting traded and then later he does the extension so he can change his mind. The extension would actually be part of the deal (which is why he needs to agree to it in advance). Some teams like Houston and Dallas have talked about being willing to trade for him even if he won’t sign an extension, but New Jersey has explicitly stated that they won’t.

So here are the possible scenarios if he doesn’t get traded to New York:

1. He gets an extend-and-trade with some other team, so he wouldn’t become a free agent in the off-season.

2. He gets traded to a team like Houston that’s okay with him not agreeing to an extension.

3. Denver doesn’t trade him, hoping he’ll decide to stay with him.

Now it may seem like options #2 and #3 give us a shot, but the truth is that the $65 million extension will stay on the table until the end of the year. Right now he’s playing chicken, hoping that by saying he won’t sign it with just anyone, that he can get traded to a destination of his choice (New York or Chicago). And it may work, so it’s not a bad ploy. He could end up getting everything he wants: both the team of his choice and a crazy big max salary extension before the new collective bargaining agreement comes in and lowers salaries.

However, come June, when the agreement’s about to end, if he’s on Denver or Houston, he can’t play chicken anymore. He’ll need to put his money where his mouth is. Between the new agreement and the fact that free agents can’t sign for as much with other teams besides their current one, he would likely literally lose at least $20 million over the next three years. Actually, since raises are based on your previous salary, this would cause him to keep losing more and more each subsequent year. That’s a lot of money. Right now it doesn’t hurt to not sign the extension (well, unless he actually does get hurt, then it’d hurt). He can always do it later on in the season. So it’s smart for him to hold off on it. But when push comes to shove…?

Okay, I know this is getting exhaustive, but one last Melo comment to clear things up. I, like many of you, grew up believing in the news. However, after going through the whole LeBron saga this summer, it became clear to me that sports journalists care more about creating good stories than the truth. That isn’t to say that they lie, but rather that they don’t follow the New York Times motto of “All the news that’s fit to print.” So they find some guy who kinda knows LeBron, and that guy says it’s a no-brainer that LeBron should go to New York, thus the reporters can accurately say that a “source” said this without it being false, but they don’t care whether that’s how LeBron feels and thus if it’s a legit read on the situation.

Thus, it seems to me, that many of the Melo rumors, even on supposedly reputable sites like ESPN (who were as guilty, if not guiltier, as anyone in terms of passing off unsubstantiated LeBron info as real stuff) are likely nowhere near true. Like a “source” can say that the Nets offered Sasha Vujacic for Melo, and that part will be reported, but not the part that Denver laughed in their faces. Because the reported three-team trade mentioned by ESPN between Denver, New Jersey and Cleveland seemed ludicrous.

Earlier trade possibilities had New Jersey moving Devin Harris to the Bobcats, who genuinely need a point guard, thus making it a logical possibility. The new report says that Denver, rather than getting Troy Murphy’s expiring contract, would get Harris. Even though they already have a veteran point guard in Chauncey Billups (who wants to remain there even if Melo goes) as well as a young up-and-coming point for the future in Ty Lawson. Hmm. Even more curious is that Cleveland would give up like $11 million of its trade exception left over from LeBron, and in return they would have to pay the remaining $8 million of Murphy’s contract (oops, I mean they’d get him, but c’mon, they’ve already got a better vet stretch four in Antawn Jamison, as well as a young gun in that spot with JJ Hickson, meaning it’s the last position they need) in order to get one or two first round picks. Plus, adding Murphy would put the Cavs over the salary cap, meaning they’d miss out on the few million that each team under the cap gets at the end of the year. Thus, for one first rounder (maybe two) they’d be giving up the exception, plus costing themselves about $12 million. During the summer, people were surprised when a first rounder was going for a few million. Even if they got two picks, this’d be $6 mill/pick plus losing a potentially very valuable trade exception. Unless they secretly hired Isiah as their GM, I can’t imagine they’d pull the trigger on this one.

So I don’t know what will happen with Melo, but I do know that if the Knicks’ brass wants him as much as the fans do, then they’re doing everything in their power to get him now since it will be infinitely harder to snag him over the summer.

http://bucketsoverbroadway.com/2011/01/07/knicks-unlikely-to-sign-melo-in-off-season/

DoMeFavors
01-07-2011, 11:52 PM
I dont think he will go into free agency...Knicks are doing pretty well..probably not interested in gutting their roster. They already said they are resigning Wilson Chandler to big money.

lkingratedr
01-08-2011, 12:01 AM
well chandler is obviously going to get money but the knicks have 3 players coming off the books this offseason... plus the knicks have a owner who doesnt care about going over the salary cap and is willing to pay for a championship so all in all i can see melo coming to the knicks

D Roses Bulls
01-08-2011, 12:10 AM
well chandler is obviously going to get money but the knicks have 3 players coming off the books this offseason... plus the knicks have a owner who doesnt care about going over the salary cap and is willing to pay for a championship so all in all i can see melo coming to the knicks

you need to actually read the article. it's not that easy

nycericanguy
01-08-2011, 12:30 AM
The players NY would have to move would be Turiaf, AR & Mozgov. All of those players should be easily movable as their contracts are very reasonable.

Only Turiaf sees regular minutes and he only plays around 15-20 mpg. I would hardly consider that "gutting" as none of those guys are even consistent rotation players.

The Felton, Amare, Gallo, Chandler, Fields, Douglas core would be left untouched.

nycericanguy
01-08-2011, 12:36 AM
To add to the above, if the deadline approaches and Melo looks like he's heading to FAgency I can see NY trading AR, Turiaf & Buike to SAC for Dalemebert. That would help them this season and Dalembert expires which would leave NY a ton of cap space.

jeter 2
01-08-2011, 12:46 AM
The Knicks could give up Mosgov instead of Gallinari.

HeaTxRipZz
01-08-2011, 12:50 AM
Knicks have a team option on Mozgov anyways his 2nd and third seasons aren't guarenteed so that shouldn't be a hurdle if it gets in the way of anything

hotpotato1092
01-08-2011, 12:52 AM
If he hits free agency there's no way the Knicks don't get him. If that means letting Chandler walk or trading a player or two then so be it, but if he isn't traded at the deadline he'll be a Knick next season. Walsh knows this, and he wouldn't waste cap space on Chandler before signing 'Melo, if the plan wasn't to sign 'Melo they'd have traded Curry's expiring by now. Not trying to sound like a homer, I still think he could get traded elsewhere, but if he hits free agency it's inevitable that he ends up with the Knicks.

beasted86
01-08-2011, 01:01 AM
To try and weed out the posters who don't want to read that long article... it's basically saying you can't keep all the current players on your team and still sign Carmelo. You simply don't have the cap space.

So you have 3 options:
1) Trade mid-season this year for Carmelo (hasn't worked so far)
2) Trade in the summer S&T for Carmelo (likely Chandler, Azibuke and others + picks)
3) Trade away players to another team then sign Carmelo outright with cap space.

Da Knicks
01-08-2011, 01:01 AM
Chandler will get his long contract, it will be a sign and trade with Denver. end of story.

beasted86
01-08-2011, 01:04 AM
Chandler will get his long contract, it will be a sign and trade with Denver. end of story.

With Nuggets in rebuild mode, what if he prices himself out of what Denver wants to pay?

Say he wants $9M a year. Considering Travis Outlaw got $7M, it's not out of question. Nuggets surely won't pay him that.

beasted86
01-08-2011, 01:08 AM
If he hits free agency there's no way the Knicks don't get him. If that means letting Chandler walk or trading a player or two then so be it, but if he isn't traded at the deadline he'll be a Knick next season. Walsh knows this, and he wouldn't waste cap space on Chandler before signing 'Melo, if the plan wasn't to sign 'Melo they'd have traded Curry's expiring by now. Not trying to sound like a homer, I still think he could get traded elsewhere, but if he hits free agency it's inevitable that he ends up with the Knicks.

Makes some sense. Let Chandler and Azibuke walk, then maybe trade Mozgov and you should have cap space to offer him a sizable chunk.

The only potential problem I see is that sizeable chunk is still probably not his max, and will no doubt be less money than Stoudemire makes. For that reason I don't see him as a Knick without a sign & trade. Nuggets won't want to lose him for nothing, and he doesn't want to get paid drastically less than STAT.

Kashmir13579
01-08-2011, 02:47 AM
Right now its looking more like they don't need Melo. They need a legit defensive big man. Knicks aren't having trouble scoring on any team except maybe the Heat. Might be better off signing Wilson Chandler long-term, he's a huge part of their chemistry.

HeatVsHate
01-08-2011, 03:09 AM
To try and weed out the posters who don't want to read that long article... it's basically saying you can't keep all the current players on your team and still sign Carmelo. You simply don't have the cap space.

So you have 3 options:
1) Trade mid-season this year for Carmelo (hasn't worked so far)
2) Trade in the summer S&T for Carmelo (likely Chandler, Azibuke and others + picks)
3) Trade away players to another team then sign Carmelo outright with cap space.

Yah, some of the previous post probably don't want to read long posts, but it is necessary in this case to be able to fully understand the point of this thread. So it s advisable to read the whole article 1st before posting guys.

Regarding the article, if this is really the case, then knicks should make a move now to be able to avoid Carmelo ending up in diff uniform, but the question is who are they willing to loose over this move.

Frankly, the knicks -as good as they are playing offensively right now ain't scary to contending teams, they have numerous weaknesses right now that coaches know how to take advantage of, but with MELO in there they would be an instant threat to the elite teams if their current supporting cast remains in tact that is Galo, fields, chandler, felton which are great equal complimentary's to their clicking offensive system.

Knicks situation is much more complicated than I thought (or heard). But I would shoot for Carmelo at all cost if I were them then rebuild again if necessary.

Sadds The Gr8
01-08-2011, 03:17 AM
Chandler is so sick on the Knicks but I guess you can't pass on Melo if he's asked for.

nykobe24
01-08-2011, 03:18 AM
IF melo comes here can chandler and gallinari still be there?

Sadds The Gr8
01-08-2011, 03:20 AM
IF melo comes here can chandler and gallinari still be there?

i don't think so cuz there's not enough cap space. Only way is if they trade their whole roster for expirings like they did the last couple years, and i doubt they do that now since they're actually good. I think one of them has to go.

nykobe24
01-08-2011, 03:24 AM
i don't think so cuz there's not enough cap space. Only way is if they trade their whole roster for expirings like they did the last couple years, and i doubt they do that now since they're actually good. I think one of them has to go.

yea thats what i was thinking thanks

hgtiger32
01-08-2011, 03:39 AM
at the end of the day, I wonder if Melo realizes his best chance at winning, playing, being the man, etc. is in Denver and he signs the 3 year extension with them.

I mean seriously what more does he want. he has enough talent around him in Denver, sure you have to add a few pieces here and there but I think if he would resign, there wouldnt be the elephant in the room with Denver, and theyd start playing a lot better


Weird energy with this Nuggets team. Everyone plays hard but there's no camaraderie at all. This Melo/trade saga undeniably affects them. 11:51 PM Jan 5th via ÜberTwitter
Retweeted by 30 people
.sportsguy33
Bill Simmons

NYsFinest
01-08-2011, 03:43 AM
Leave Chandler... forget Melo let him rot in New Jersey on a 35 win team. Chandler is pretty special and the rest of the league will know soon enough. He's still 23 years old, hasn't had a healthy offseason (minor non career threatening injuries) to work on his game yet.

He has played out of position for the Knicks all year and still averaging 20 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.5 blk on 54% shooting and 44% from 3 the past 20 games or so.

This kid will be a top 5 SF in this league very soon. What the Knicks need to do is keep this core together and spend their cap space on size and defensive players... guys like DeAndre Jordan, Javale McGee... maybe throw money at a Marc Gasol type.

king4day
01-08-2011, 03:49 AM
If they can get Melo, even if it means gutting the roster, then they will. It's the difference between being good and being elite. They aren't title contenders as constructed.

ball4reel
01-08-2011, 03:59 AM
We need a defensive big man and a pass 1st back-up pg before we need melo.

calibird707
01-08-2011, 04:21 AM
Blah blah blah..melo is gonna be a knick!!!!

BklynKnicks3
01-08-2011, 12:20 PM
http://******.com/src_wiretap_archives/71022/20110108/nets_determined_to_keep_carmelo_away_from_knicks/ lmao

xabial
01-08-2011, 12:46 PM
its no secret Carmelo is going to lose Millions if he leaves via Free Agency to sign with the Knicks...BUT

Will endorsements, and arguably the best team available (Felton-Carmelo-Amare-Gallinari-Chandler.. Knicks Roster Remains in-tact). Lebron shocked the world when he dwade and bosh took paycuts to play together. Carmelo cant risk the next CBA? for another max contract, the chance at a ring, and endorsements?

netsgiantsyanks
01-08-2011, 12:53 PM
wilson chandler as the center?

PlezPlayDKnicks
01-08-2011, 01:03 PM
Maybe the Knicks renounce his bird rights and reup him ala Richard Jefferson . Maybe he gives us the hometown discount .. Either way I'll be happy with or without Melo

Hugbees
01-08-2011, 01:17 PM
lol at the source. how long did it take to dig for that article? some people have too much spare time.

Maggarielle
01-08-2011, 01:51 PM
Hmm, the Knicks could have signed 2 max guys over the summer, but now they can't because of Wilson Chandler and they are going to gut the team again? I'm kinda skeptical of the picture this article is painting. Donnie has done a pretty good job with the cap and finding players so far. I'm sure the man has got a handle on this better than the Author of the article. Just saying...

cheetos185
01-08-2011, 02:01 PM
ok where the hell did ny post say that we can sign melo than sign chandler with bird rights why wont espn show the link ny post most credible reporter hahn would never say something stupid like that this is just another bash article by bspn

NY-SportsFan
01-08-2011, 02:13 PM
I have been saying what the article states the whole time. We wait til free agency, we likely lose Chandler, Azu, and Randolph anyway.
If we trade for him, we lose them now(substitute gallo or fields in there if you wish), but IN ADDITION we are able to us the MID LEVEL exception next summer(as long as the cba doesnt get rid of it) to add someone else. We would have to renounce our rights to that if we signed Melo as a free agent.

I love how once a "legit" source says it, you all finally understand what some have been saying all along.

D Roses Bulls
01-08-2011, 07:18 PM
lol at the source. how long did it take to dig for that article? some people have too much spare time.

not long actually, it was right at the top and how bout instead of down grading it because its not saying what you wanna hear, you actually read it and do the research on what that person is trying to say.

godolphins
01-08-2011, 08:21 PM
He will sign with the Heat for the MLE

D Roses Bulls
01-08-2011, 08:37 PM
He will sign with the Heat for the MLE

you know what..... I wouldn't doubt that for a minute, lol

dturpin598
01-08-2011, 08:40 PM
Interesting dilemma, I would keep Chandler; while he is not Melo he is turning into a very good player. I'd keep him and try for his brother in FA, Tyson Chandler(I know they are not brothers).

jfree31
01-08-2011, 11:25 PM
im a laker fan, and if i were the knicks i'd keep current team opposed to trading for melo. yes he's that good, but chandler gives you the all-around game with boards, and steals. yes melo can score and at will, but chandlers only gonna get better. this is what his 2nd? season. save the money for another guy to come along, where u don't have to gut your team, and let this one gel. less than half a year so far and you guys look good. youre the suns of 5 years ago. now it may work with the hybrid players. didnt work in phoenix because you still had all the great bigs out west. i personally think youu guys are a 6th man away(j.terry) from being pretty superior. i know u wont get terry, but someone of that caliber

jfree31
01-08-2011, 11:26 PM
besides i heard we(lakers) were the ones to get him, so he can take oer for kobe when hes done.

LA_Raiders
01-08-2011, 11:27 PM
he will be traded to NJ in a month

beasted86
01-08-2011, 11:42 PM
ok where the hell did ny post say that we can sign melo than sign chandler with bird rights why wont espn show the link ny post most credible reporter hahn would never say something stupid like that this is just another bash article by bspn

NY Post? reliable????????

:laugh2:

You're crazy. I've seen some of the worst trash imaginable come out of the Post. I can't say if it was from Hahn though.

MELO 15
01-09-2011, 12:58 AM
Any time u get a chance 2 trade 4 arguably one of the top 5 players in the league u do so with no hesitations, u never want 2 say, what if, cause u can never go back in time and change it. If the knicks want to CONTEND 4 a chip By any means necessary Get Melo, if u want 2 stay relevant keep chandler.