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View Full Version : Is Kevin Love the next David Lee ?



knicks09
12-30-2010, 02:33 PM
I know what you're all gonna say, that he is already better, blah blah blah. But to me he seems like a better version of Lee just not quite yet. Both can score easily, both got a jump shot, GREAT rebounders, etc. Love plays better D than Lee though. It's funny cause they even wear the same number....

Sly Guy
12-30-2010, 02:41 PM
if you know what I'm gonna say, then why ask me to say it again?

Love is better.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 02:42 PM
you can't be the next somebody when you are already better than they have ever been.
Is Love the next Wes Unseld?

Basketash
12-30-2010, 02:45 PM
No, he's better.

xabial
12-30-2010, 02:45 PM
Until His Team wins he's always going to be a David Lee in my Book. A bad Team's Best Player who puts up GREAT stats.

S-Dot
12-30-2010, 02:50 PM
In my opinion...
David Lee is more athletic
Kevin Love has more potential, and a much better shooter

The_Mac22
12-30-2010, 02:51 PM
:sigh:

LTBaByyy
12-30-2010, 02:52 PM
Way better, if Love was in the East OMG lol

HakeemTheDream
12-30-2010, 02:52 PM
So far this season Kevin Love > David Lee and it's not even close.

29$JerZ
12-30-2010, 02:54 PM
In Love's first season I expected him to have a similar career too Lee.
He blazed faster than that though. He is already a better 3pt shooter, rebounder and defender than Lee.

LTBaByyy
12-30-2010, 02:55 PM
Love would be perfect on the Bucks with Jennings and Bogut

cg836
12-30-2010, 02:55 PM
Maybe in the respect that they're both stat hounds who aren't winning players?

Rivera
12-30-2010, 02:58 PM
the question should be.....is david lee the next kevin love??

knicks4life33
12-30-2010, 03:05 PM
kevin love is better then lee

HakeemTheDream
12-30-2010, 03:05 PM
I think one of the many reasons they don't win games is because of their defense. Defense is a very important role for big men because they're always around the basket where most of the shots are taken. Rodman was a bad offensive player but the reason he had so much success is because of his defense.

tredigs
12-30-2010, 03:08 PM
So far this season Kevin Love > David Lee and it's not even close.

Lee had a chunk of his bicep ripped out with the infection from Chandler's dump-truck tooth. It's just slightly bugged him in the early going I think..

Lee's the better offensive player. He has better moves, scores with a high efficiency from both the block and mid-range (when healthy) and is one of the best passing bigs in the game. Though I'm really impressed with Love's elite FT and 3pt shooting so far this year, that's big time for a big who struggles to score in the block due to his lack of size/athleticism.

Both are weak defenders (is Love even better than Lee, I'm not sure. It's a big problem in both of their games), and Love is clearly the better rebounder.

Their skill sets are pretty similar (as is their amount of melanin), but it's not doing Love enough justice to call him "the next" of someone that he's arguably as good or better than.

Flash3
12-30-2010, 03:21 PM
Kevin love really impresses me, i like his drive and persistence. Kinda guy who won't give no matter what the score is. The timberwolves are looking toward a very bright future and hopefully with a high pick this year they can snatch another stud and once rubio comes over things are gonna look even more brighter.

adidas2307
12-30-2010, 03:22 PM
That's racist.

JayAllDay
12-30-2010, 03:24 PM
After watching Lee with the Knicks almost every season and mature in front of mine eyes, I'd like to see Kevin Love actually play on national television.

That being said, I think aside from being PF/Cs that wear #42 who both possess one syllable last names, I think their games are very different. Even on the rebounding end.

WolvesJagsOs
12-30-2010, 03:24 PM
Maybe in the respect that they're both stat hounds who aren't winning players?

what do you expect when your PG's play has been pretty awful, and your average age is 24, and we basically have a whole new team besides 3-4 players? honestly.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 03:27 PM
After watching Lee with the Knicks almost every season and mature in front of mine eyes, I'd like to see Kevin Love actually play on national television.

That being said, I think aside from being PF/Cs that wear #42 who both possess one syllable last names, I think their games are very different. Even on the rebounding end.

that will be a while dude. The Wolves don't get nationally televised games. Rubio may change that.

And you have seen him give the Knicks 31-31-5, and 33-15-3 this year, haven't you?

xabial
12-30-2010, 03:37 PM
that will be a while dude. The Wolves don't get nationally televised games. Rubio may change that.

And you have seen him give the Knicks 31-31-5, and 33-15-3 this year, haven't you?

You really have high hopes for this kid.

Hopefully he improves his mid-range game, but when it comes to passing this team should be much improved.

Flash3
12-30-2010, 03:38 PM
that will be a while dude. The Wolves don't get nationally televised games. Rubio may change that.

And you have seen him give the Knicks 31-31-5, and 33-15-3 this year, haven't you?

i have league pass i watch him alot one of the more intriguing guys in the league.

mavwar53
12-30-2010, 03:42 PM
Love is way better than Lee, he is a better rebounder and shooter by far and just a better offensive player without question.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 03:50 PM
You really have high hopes for this kid.

Hopefully he improves his mid-range game, but when it comes to passing this team should be much improved.

I don't have high hopes necessarily, but I have been high on him since UCLA. He is 22. And improves something every year. I am not worried about his future. He will be an all star.

sep11ie
12-30-2010, 03:55 PM
Oh, i get it. They are both white.

FinsSuperBowl
12-30-2010, 03:58 PM
They both suk on defense...... but anyway is Beasley the next Mello? lol

topdog
12-30-2010, 04:08 PM
They both suk on defense...... but anyway is Beasley the next Mello? lol

Well, they were both #2 picks... oohh, wait Darko was #2...

Leave it to Knicks fans to call Love "David Lee" in the year he's posting numbers we haven't seen in the league for 30yrs. A better question would be about a less-obvious non-contemporary like "Is Kevin Love the next Charles Barkley?"

beasted86
12-30-2010, 04:10 PM
He's better, but he's not a #1 option on a playoff team either. I think that's what the OP was getting at, but I'm not sure.

vantroi775
12-30-2010, 04:14 PM
Is this the next worst thread of all time?

lkingratedr
12-30-2010, 04:19 PM
honestly lee has proven to me he can hang with the big boys lee played out of position banging with shaq and howard and he still lead the league in double doubles now unfortuantly hes on a bad team ... love however to me reminds me of chris bosh a good player getting his stats on a bad team so he looks great ... put love on a contender and lets see his stats ... oh and lee was a all star last year ... love was tryna get in the rotation

beasted86
12-30-2010, 04:24 PM
honestly lee has proven to me he can hang with the big boys lee played out of position banging with shaq and howard and he still lead the league in double doubles now unfortuantly hes on a bad team ... love however to me reminds me of chris bosh a good player getting his stats on a bad team so he looks great ... put love on a contender and lets see his stats ... oh and lee was a all star last year ... love was tryna get in the rotation

:confused:

5 all-star selections, a gold medal in the olympics, and his current statline as a 3rd option speak above him being just "good".

Chris Bosh is a top 3 PF in the NBA, and top 15 overall.

nycericanguy
12-30-2010, 04:25 PM
I don't know but as a Knick fan I've become weary of players putting up big numbers on horrible teams.

I mean David Lee put up some amazing numbers with NY last year, 20ppg, 12rpg 4apg and incredibly efficient offensive numbers. He had that 37 point, 23 rebound 10 assist game as well.

The year before that Nate Robinson averaged something like 18ppg, 4prg, & 4apg.

Not saying Love isn't a good player, but if he was really that good he would at least have that MIN team somewhere close to .500. He does have a defensive center next to him and another 20ppg scorer. He also takes a TON of shots to score his 20ppg.

John Walls Era
12-30-2010, 05:27 PM
David Lee is more efficient and athletic. I think Love is a better rebounder and passer. I'd take Love, but in a 1 year rental I would take Lee.

Durant is hype
12-30-2010, 05:39 PM
you can't be the next somebody when you are already better than they have ever been.
Is Love the next Wes Unseld?

Wes Unseld was a heck of player no?

Rivera
12-30-2010, 05:42 PM
Wes Unseld was a heck of player no?

:facepalm:

u do realize he was a HOFer right??

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 05:50 PM
Wes Unseld was a heck of player no?

great player, and the last great outlet passer in the game. Love is often compared to him in that regard, among others.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 05:50 PM
:facepalm:

u do realize he was a HOFer right??

most of us, including you and I, are too young to have seen him play. So it wasn't a bad question.

Hustla23
12-30-2010, 06:14 PM
you can't be the next somebody when you are already better than they have ever been.
Is Love the next Wes Unseld?
How's that?

Lee had a beast of a season last year.

I'd wait to see how Love finishes the season before making a statement like that. If he continues at his current pace, then yeah, no doubt he's better than him. But if his numbers level off, then it was just premature speculation.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 06:23 PM
How's that?

Lee had a beast of a season last year.

I'd wait to see how Love finishes the season before making a statement like that. If he continues at his current pace, then yeah, no doubt he's better than him. But if his numbers level off, then it was just premature speculation.

if it makes you happy for me to say, "if he sustains", then sure. however, they were already close efficiency wise last season anyways, Lee just got more minutes while the Wolves for some unexplainable reason played Love only 25 mpg. Now Love is putting a bit of distance between the two. Lee is better at finishing near the rim due to his athletic ability, but Love is a superior long range shooter, free throw shooter, passer, and rebounder.

CB29
12-30-2010, 06:24 PM
I think one of the many reasons they don't win games is because of their defense. Defense is a very important role for big men because they're always around the basket where most of the shots are taken. Rodman was a bad offensive player but the reason he had so much success is because of his defense.

Dennis rodman was a pest and one of the greatest rebounders in nba history if not the greatest especially due to his size.. love and lee aren't even on the same level as rodman... just because the nba hates rodman doesn't mean that he isn't great... don't compare him to lee/love who have completely different skills...

Evolution23
12-30-2010, 06:25 PM
Love is good but he needs to win some games first to be considered a top PF

CB29
12-30-2010, 06:27 PM
Kevin Love's problem is that no one will care about him until he wins... sorry thats how it goes... look at roy halladay on the blue jays... won the cy young but no one really cared about outside of toronto until he got to philly... same goes for love... gotta win otherwise you're a very good player (not great cause you gotta win to be great) on a bad team... same goes for lee...

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 06:27 PM
Love is good but he needs to win some games first to be considered a top PF

agreed. As does Blake Griffin.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 06:28 PM
Kevin Love's problem is that no one will care about him until he wins... sorry thats how it goes... look at roy halladay on the blue jays... won the cy young but no one really cared about outside of toronto until he got to philly... same goes for love... gotta win otherwise you're a very good player (not great cause you gotta win to be great) on a bad team... same goes for lee...

basketball purists will care. The fans who understand that roster support is essential to winning can still appreciate a player on a young/bad/developing team.

CB29
12-30-2010, 06:45 PM
basketball purists will care. The fans who understand that roster support is essential to winning can still appreciate a player on a young/bad/developing team.

nah they really won't and if they will it'll be for the short term... honestly how many players can u recount that have supported a team by themselves and then not received the credit for it... Critics will always say that his stats are inflated cause he's on a bad team and he's not great cause he can't make his team win... Honestly, Kevin Love will just get lost since there's a lot of ppl to care about and Minnesota is just not relevant in the nba... Too bad for him... i like him as a player but i just don't see it...

WizFan3
12-30-2010, 07:02 PM
kevin love is better then him so no bcuz hes already passed him

DwayneMVPwade
12-30-2010, 07:25 PM
Love is way better. Doing what he is doing at a younger age. Can shoot the 3. Overall better scorer

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 08:16 PM
nah they really won't and if they will it'll be for the short term... honestly how many players can u recount that have supported a team by themselves and then not received the credit for it... Critics will always say that his stats are inflated cause he's on a bad team and he's not great cause he can't make his team win... Honestly, Kevin Love will just get lost since there's a lot of ppl to care about and Minnesota is just not relevant in the nba... Too bad for him... i like him as a player but i just don't see it...

How many players outside LeBron for example have supported crappy rosters? You are speaking of the elite of the elite, something nobody expects Love to ever become.
And I beg to differ on your opinion. MANY experts recognize him as a future star, worthy of being an all star right now. And many of the more respected NBA posters here will also tell you that Love is a very, very good young player who has a great career ahead of him.

Think of it this way. Out of all the crappy teams in the last 28 years, NOBODY has had the numbers Love currently has. Most young players are drafted into organizations where there are initial struggles (hence why that team is in the lottery), and their teams get better over time. This is exactly what will happen with the Wolves. Look at that roster, and add Rubio, and tell me that is a 20 win team in a year, or the year after that.

CB29
12-30-2010, 08:44 PM
How many players outside LeBron for example have supported crappy rosters? You are speaking of the elite of the elite, something nobody expects Love to ever become.
And I beg to differ on your opinion. MANY experts recognize him as a future star, worthy of being an all star right now. And many of the more respected NBA posters here will also tell you that Love is a very, very good young player who has a great career ahead of him.

Think of it this way. Out of all the crappy teams in the last 28 years, NOBODY has had the numbers Love currently has. Most young players are drafted into organizations where there are initial struggles (hence why that team is in the lottery), and their teams get better over time. This is exactly what will happen with the Wolves. Look at that roster, and add Rubio, and tell me that is a 20 win team in a year, or the year after that.

Well no i disagree with you... Many players have... All of the the big three in miami are examples of players who have played with a horrible roster... kobe has too... Al Jefferson did it in Minny too when KL got hurt... Paul Pierce did it, Garnett, Allen.... There's loads of examples man... Here's the thing, he may be an all-star, he probably deserves to be... But All star to me is meaningless... It's great to receive fan popularity but you play in the nba for 2 reasons... To get rich and to win... K-Love has the contract but i don't see him elevating himself right now to the level where he can carry a team or be that second man on the team... That's just my feeling because he's playing with poor rebounders so i feel that his stats are inflated and thats why he gets all the love... Beasley is a sub-par rebounder and Darko is extremely inconsistent and cannot use his size well... Love's not a great shot blocker either... I don't see the defensive impact that an exceptional player has and i don't see that efficiency in his offense yet... I just feel that he's in a position to succeed statistically now but when the spotlight is on him, i doubt that he can contribute to the standards that people will hold him to...

My problem with minny is i don't see their direction... They have horrible management and that was illustrated when K love himself said that he felt more appreciation from team usa than the wolves. They draft the best player available rather than what they need... They couldn't make it work with aj and kl and they have a huge problem getting rubio into the nba... I doubt that wesley, beasley, love and flynn will be that competitive in that western conference.

Sixerlover
12-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Kevin Love's problem is that no one will care about him until he wins... sorry thats how it goes... look at roy halladay on the blue jays... won the cy young but no one really cared about outside of toronto until he got to philly... same goes for love... gotta win otherwise you're a very good player (not great cause you gotta win to be great) on a bad team... same goes for lee...

So your saying Love needs to be in Philly? I like the way you think. :D

Sixerlover
12-30-2010, 08:55 PM
My problem with minny is i don't see their direction... They have horrible management and that was illustrated when K love himself said that he felt more appreciation from team usa than the wolves. They draft the best player available rather than what they need... They couldn't make it work with aj and kl and they have a huge problem getting rubio into the nba... I doubt that wesley, beasley, love and flynn will be that competitive in that western conference.

While people may not like David Kahn the man, you can't deny his moves are starting to take shape. He is putting together a financially responsible young athletic team full of runners and scorers along with some rebounding to compliment Rubio perfectly. He has the cap room to acquire any player on the market, and has the young talent to trade for the same. He walked into the mess that McHale left and cleaned up pretty well so far. Of course his legacy will be dependent on Rubio, so we will see how that goes next year and if he comes over, but as of now he hasn't done as terribly as people (including myself) originally thought he was.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 08:58 PM
Well no i disagree with you... Many players have... All of the the big three in miami are examples of players who have played with a horrible roster... kobe has too... Al Jefferson did it in Minny too when KL got hurt... Paul Pierce did it, Garnett, Allen.... There's loads of examples man... Here's the thing, he may be an all-star, he probably deserves to be... But All star to me is meaningless... It's great to receive fan popularity but you play in the nba for 2 reasons... To get rich and to win... K-Love has the contract but i don't see him elevating himself right now to the level where he can carry a team or be that second man on the team... That's just my feeling because he's playing with poor rebounders so i feel that his stats are inflated and thats why he gets all the love... Beasley is a sub-par rebounder and Darko is extremely inconsistent and cannot use his size well... Love's not a great shot blocker either... I don't see the defensive impact that an exceptional player has and i don't see that efficiency in his offense yet... I just feel that he's in a position to succeed statistically now but when the spotlight is on him, i doubt that he can contribute to the standards that people will hold him to...

My problem with minny is i don't see their direction... They have horrible management and that was illustrated when K love himself said that he felt more appreciation from team usa than the wolves. They draft the best player available rather than what they need... They couldn't make it work with aj and kl and they have a huge problem getting rubio into the nba... I doubt that wesley, beasley, love and flynn will be that competitive in that western conference.



I won't even bother debating you on this. Most, if not all, of your post is incorrect.
You don't have to see their direction. Plenty of people do. The youngest team in the NBA with no deal over $5 million, and Rubio coming over next summer, with picks galore, and the best rebounder in the game, who "chips in" 21 a night, and numerous top 6 picks on the roster, is indeed a direction.

The last thing I will address is if you are in the lottery, you don't draft for need unless you are at pick 12-14 for example. You have plenty of needs. The Wolves will be just fine. You don't see it that way. Nothing I can say will change your mind.
So LeBron, Durant, they were not good players with hollow stats when they were young, correct? Since they were on bad teams? I am not calling Love either of them, but Love would excel anywhere, with any team. Pretty simple. Guys who don't need a play run for them, yet give you extra possessions and score in the flow, and have stats not seen in 28 years, tend to fit in anywhere.

SeoulBeatz
12-30-2010, 09:04 PM
Love is better now than Lee has ever been.

Especially since Lee's offensive game seems to have digressed over the past year or two.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 09:04 PM
cb429, before you continue on the Wolves/Love, etc, know that I will make you so tired of debating this you will disappear on this subject. I have nearly perfected the art of defending the Wolves over the last 18 months. :)

fadedmario
12-30-2010, 09:16 PM
Kevin Love is MUCH better than David Lee - not even close

fadedmario
12-30-2010, 09:17 PM
Wolves are just young

Knicks21
12-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Lee is number 10
Love is number 42

Hustla23
12-30-2010, 09:30 PM
if it makes you happy for me to say, "if he sustains", then sure. however, they were already close efficiency wise last season anyways, Lee just got more minutes while the Wolves for some unexplainable reason played Love only 25 mpg. Now Love is putting a bit of distance between the two. Lee is better at finishing near the rim due to his athletic ability, but Love is a superior long range shooter, free throw shooter, passer, and rebounder.
You know that efficiency regresses with extended playing time, usage, minutes whatever. So I wouldn't say they were close previous to this year just based on an extrapolation.

If at the end of the year Love can beat what Lee did last season, then he's on top, clear cut. But until then, there's a lot of room for unexpected changes, I'd say.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 09:31 PM
You know that efficiency regresses with extended playing time, usage, minutes whatever. So I wouldn't say they were close previous to this year just based on an extrapolation.

If at the end of the year Love can beat what Lee did last season, then he's on top, clear cut. But until then, there's a lot of room for unexpected changes, I'd say.

visit the stats forum. Chronz actually did a thread on this, and found it to be false.

And your second paragraph I can more than live with.

icon1914
12-30-2010, 09:36 PM
agreed. As does Blake Griffin.

Whoa! Way to throw Blake under the bus... If Love came into the league year one and put up 21 and 12, and being a crowd pleasing dunker can't hurt, I'm sure there would be talk about him being a top 5 PF... even on a losing team... Its just how it works...

But Love is not the next Lee ( I can't help but believe the comparison is based more race than anything else)... But the verdict is still out whether he is a legitimate star that can take a team to the next level, or simply a very talented player that benefits from being the best player on a bad team.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 09:41 PM
Whoa! Way to throw Blake under the bus... If Love came into the league year one and put up 21 and 12, and being a crowd pleasing dunker can't hurt, I'm sure there would be talk about him being a top 5 PF... even on a losing team... Its just how it works...

But Love is not the next Lee ( I can't help but believe the comparison is based more race than anything else)... But the verdict is still out whether he is a legitimate star that can take a team to the next level, or simply a very talented player that benefits from being the best player on a bad team.

how am I throwing him under the bus? Love is putting up elite PF numbers, but won't get the respect until his team wins. How is that any different that Griffin? They are only a year apart btw, Griffin happened to miss a year with injury, and while I think Griffin will end up the better player, nothing is concrete yet.


And again, getting stats from being on a bad team is fairly easy to evaluate. If the player has low efficiency across the board, but still have nice per game averages, than it can be assumed that the "great stats on a bad team" theory stands. But its actually harder to be more efficient on a bad team.

Love fits anywhere. Anytime. How many times do I have to say it? Players who don't have more than 2-3 plays a night run for them, who create possessions with offensive rebounding, and take away possessions with defensive rebounding, and get 20+ a night in the flow of the offense without a single isolation, will fit with any team or scenario.

beasted86
12-30-2010, 10:10 PM
And again, getting stats from being on a bad team is fairly easy to evaluate. If the player has low efficiency across the board, but still have nice per game averages, than it can be assumed that the "great stats on a bad team" theory stands. But its actually harder to be more efficient on a bad team.
In theory that's how it should work, but I've seen too many occurrences where teams are comfortable exchanging baskets with another team. I can't explain why it happens so often, yet it does... especially on teams that play at a ridiculous pace because of the nature of the way their offense works. I've seen this more than a hundred times teams whether the game is close or not where opponents seem to get either comfortable or baited into letting players take long jumpers without honestly contesting them (which most of these high paced teams take those shots), and then scoring on them on the other end (because most high paced teams are poor defensively). Teams seem to fall into the trap and play into the fast pace outscore your opponent mindset instead of imposing their will and controlling the game. A clear example of this is the Boston Celtics vs. Knicks game a few weeks ago. Sure I mean Raymond Felton and Amare Stoudemire are good, but they are not THAT good that they could make the Celtics with the #1 defense in the league at the time look that far away from being the best defensive team in the league. Just as a simple experiment, now that you can give an opinion on a team outside of the Wolves, what do you credit more for that game being close? Raymond Felton and Stoudemire being that good? or the Celtics defense being that lax or out of sync?



Love fits anywhere. Anytime. How many times do I have to say it? Players who don't have more than 2-3 plays a night run for them, who create possessions with offensive rebounding, and take away possessions with defensive rebounding, and get 20+ a night in the flow of the offense without a single isolation, will fit with any team or scenario.

He can fit anywhere, but that doesn't mean he can dominate anywhere, hence the Lee comparison (or at least that's what I think the OP started this topic about). Lee was the most efficient big man in the NBA last season statistically using EFF, and Love is on his way to the same achievement.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 10:17 PM
In theory that's how it should work, but I've seen too many occurrences where teams are comfortable exchanging baskets with another team. I can't explain why it happens so often, yet it does... especially on teams that play at a ridiculous pace because of the nature of the way their offense works. I've seen this more than a hundred times teams whether the game is close or not where opponents seem to get either comfortable or baited into letting players take long jumpers without honestly contesting them (which most of these high paced teams take those shots), and then scoring on them on the other end (because most high paced teams are poor defensively). Teams seem to fall into the trap and play into the fast pace outscore your opponent mindset instead of imposing their will and controlling the game. A clear example of this is the Boston Celtics vs. Knicks game a few weeks ago. Sure I mean Raymond Felton and Amare Stoudemire are good, but they are not THAT good that they could make the Celtics with the #1 defense in the league at the time look that far away from being the best defensive team in the league. Just as a simple experiment, now that you can give an opinion on a team outside of the Wolves, what do you credit more for that game being close? Raymond Felton and Stoudemire being that good? or the Celtics defense being that lax or out of sync?




He can fit anywhere, but that doesn't mean he can dominate anywhere, hence the Lee comparison (or at least that's what I think the OP started this topic about). Lee was the most efficient big man in the NBA last season statistically using EFF, and Love is on his way to the same achievement.


to your first paragraph, you clearly understand that not only is "stats are easy to get on bad team" a myth, but anytime you state absolutes you border an opinion not worth listening to.

To your second paragraph, I never stated he would dominate a game with tons of help. But you also know he would dominate certain facets. I don't care if you put him next to Dwight, he is still an elite rebounder. Put him on the Heat. He still gets a 23%+ rebound rate.

What is EFF? I am more interested in his rebound rates, offensive rating, and TS%. His defense will grow over time as he learns tricks.

CB29
12-30-2010, 10:20 PM
I won't even bother debating you on this. Most, if not all, of your post is incorrect.
You don't have to see their direction. Plenty of people do. The youngest team in the NBA with no deal over $5 million, and Rubio coming over next summer, with picks galore, and the best rebounder in the game, who "chips in" 21 a night, and numerous top 6 picks on the roster, is indeed a direction.

The last thing I will address is if you are in the lottery, you don't draft for need unless you are at pick 12-14 for example. You have plenty of needs. The Wolves will be just fine. You don't see it that way. Nothing I can say will change your mind.
So LeBron, Durant, they were not good players with hollow stats when they were young, correct? Since they were on bad teams? I am not calling Love either of them, but Love would excel anywhere, with any team. Pretty simple. Guys who don't need a play run for them, yet give you extra possessions and score in the flow, and have stats not seen in 28 years, tend to fit in anywhere.

Hawkeye15, I will disappear if i feel that you do not acknowledge my posts credibly. I can feel your pain and need to defend your team and i probably know it better than you since i am a raptors fan. Irregardless, a team needs to have a realistic expectation of their players and need to surround that talent with the proper support. We in Toronto, have experienced that first-hand by surrounding Chris Bosh with either the wrong talent or making him our legitimate superstar. You misinterpret my point about love's stats. I obviously don't deny that he's getting his stats or their significance. I argue that in these situations, one's stats can often mislead one to infer wrongly about a players skills or abilities. Kevin Love is an exceptional talent. However, there are 30 teams in the nba and arguably each has a very unique player as their superstar. However, not every player is able to sufficiently lead their team to success. I doubt from what i see with Love that he can lead this team to success as he is surrounded with somewhat inconsistent talent in beasley, flynn and johnson. They need another piece and their drafting practices have not shown overly encouraging signs. About love's accomplishments, I'll give an example using the raptors :D. Reggie evans prior to his injury this year has posted one of the best rebounding rates per 48 minutes in nba history, second only to the ones of dennis rodman. However, he played with a poor front court consisting of linas kleiza and Andrea Bargnani. Players accomplishments can be overstated due their circumstances.

The thing with Rubio coming over is that you don't know that he's coming over for sure. Secondly, you don't know whether he's gonna fit or be effective. Euro players have atleast shown that they need a few years to adjust and many nba players have shown a lack of commitment to stick with an nba team for such an extended period. I wish minnesota the best as during the garnett era they were one of my favourite nba teams. I'm not saying that KL will not succeed in a different nba scenario, but rather that his abilities may not be as adequate to succeed in a league where teams have better talents and he is the premier talent on his team. It rests upon Kevin Love to prove me wrong and i wish him the best of luck.

Kirgie
12-30-2010, 10:26 PM
David Lee is good but not better than Kevin Love. Even though some could say Kevin Love is having a lucky year but if you look at his stats it shows he just keeps getting better and better year after year. :D


P.S. I'm only 14 so some might be surprised on how much I know for my age but I know a lot more about pro football.:D:D:D:D

icon1914
12-30-2010, 10:28 PM
how am I throwing him under the bus? Love is putting up elite PF numbers, but won't get the respect until his team wins. How is that any different that Griffin? They are only a year apart btw, Griffin happened to miss a year with injury, and while I think Griffin will end up the better player, nothing is concrete yet.


And again, getting stats from being on a bad team is fairly easy to evaluate. If the player has low efficiency across the board, but still have nice per game averages, than it can be assumed that the "great stats on a bad team" theory stands. But its actually harder to be more efficient on a bad team.

Love fits anywhere. Anytime. How many times do I have to say it? Players who don't have more than 2-3 plays a night run for them, who create possessions with offensive rebounding, and take away possessions with defensive rebounding, and get 20+ a night in the flow of the offense without a single isolation, will fit with any team or scenario.

My point is in Blake's first REAL NBA year he is putting up numbers that rival the elites players at his position. Am I saying that means he is a top 5 player, not at all... But I am saying I understand the chatter that he gets when people speak on his potential future. If Love did the same his rookie year, he would have gotten some chatter as well... But like the majority of players in the league, Love had to take time to improve ( and get Jefferson out of his way), but after three seasons it takes more than numbers to get to elite status.

Now if three years down the road, if Blake is playing on a Clippers team that is still collecting as many lottery picks as road wins people will question his overall game. I know it's not quite the same, but I think you get my point. You get a pass your rookie year when playing on a bad team, but sooner or later your win rate factors in to your overall greatness... Just ask Tyreke Evans.

Maybe Love has elevated beyond being just "a good player on a bad team" , but until he plays on a wining team expected to win a playoff series it's hard to really evaluate where he actually stands. Love has proved he can put up numbers at an efficient rate. I'm still wondering can he be the man... The person you build around. I'm not sure yet.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 10:29 PM
Hawkeye15, I will disappear if i feel that you do not acknowledge my posts credibly. I can feel your pain and need to defend your team and i probably know it better than you since i am a raptors fan. Irregardless, a team needs to have a realistic expectation of their players and need to surround that talent with the proper support. We in Toronto, have experienced that first-hand by surrounding Chris Bosh with either the wrong talent or making him our legitimate superstar. You misinterpret my point about love's stats. I obviously don't deny that he's getting his stats or their significance. I argue that in these situations, one's stats can often mislead one to infer wrongly about a players skills or abilities. Kevin Love is an exceptional talent. However, there are 30 teams in the nba and arguably each has a very unique player as their superstar. However, not every player is able to sufficiently lead their team to success. I doubt from what i see with Love that he can lead this team to success as he is surrounded with somewhat inconsistent talent in beasley, flynn and johnson. They need another piece and their drafting practices have not shown overly encouraging signs. About love's accomplishments, I'll give an example using the raptors :D. Reggie evans prior to his injury this year has posted one of the best rebounding rates per 48 minutes in nba history, second only to the ones of dennis rodman. However, he played with a poor front court consisting of linas kleiza and Andrea Bargnani. Players accomplishments can be overstated due their circumstances.

The thing with Rubio coming over is that you don't know that he's coming over for sure. Secondly, you don't know whether he's gonna fit or be effective. Euro players have atleast shown that they need a few years to adjust and many nba players have shown a lack of commitment to stick with an nba team for such an extended period. I wish minnesota the best as during the garnett era they were one of my favourite nba teams. I'm not saying that KL will not succeed in a different nba scenario, but rather that his abilities may not be as adequate to succeed in a league where teams have better talents and he is the premier talent on his team. It rests upon Kevin Love to prove me wrong and i wish him the best of luck.


The Rubio situation I will leave alone. Funny enough, a couple of sites have reported in the past two days that Rubio's camp has given confirmation he is coming next summer, but until he signs the dotted line, I have no right to argue that point.

I think you either needed to elaborate more, or I misunderstood you. Look, Love is a monster talent, WITH LIMITATIONS. I see him being part of a contender, not the leader of one. I have no idea if a superstar will emerge from the current Wolves roster. None. I think they have a couple of future all stars in Love and Beasley (if he can learn to control himself and his shot selection), and I like Wesley, and we have some young talent that can grow into solid pieces at every position.

Rubio has a skillset (elite court vision and defense), that will translate at some point. The great thing is, our team is so young, we have time to be patient on him.

As far as Love's stats go, in the last 28 years, there hasn't been a player on a great, good, ok, below average, or crappy team, that has gone for 20-15. Love's statistical year can not be denied even by the most bias fan, if they have knowledge of advanced statistics.

Will Love be a superstar? Eh. Will he see some all star games? For sure.

And we can call it even with you being a Raps fan haha. Cmon now.


I am happy with the future of my Wolves. They are in every game, and their youth loses out in the end. Teams are loading up on Love anytime he gets near the basket, and he still yanks it down. Players with a nose for the ball, and the ability to shoot from anywhere, are going to be fine. Throw in he has a rebound rate at age 22 that is unmatchable with any current player, and I just don't see how he is not a perennial all star thru his prime.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 10:31 PM
My point is in Blake's first REAL NBA year he is putting up numbers that rival the elites players at his position. Am I saying that means he is a top 5 player, not at all... But I am saying I understand the chatter that he gets when people speak on his potential future. If Love did the same his rookie year, he would have gotten some chatter as well... But like the majority of players in the league, Love had to take time to improve ( and get Jefferson out of his way), but after three seasons it takes more than numbers to get to elite status.

Now if three years down the road, if Blake is playing on a Clippers team that is still collecting as many lottery picks as road wins people will question his overall game. I know it's not quite the same, but I think you get my point. You get a pass your rookie year when playing on a bad team, but sooner or later your win rate factors in to your overall greatness... Just ask Tyreke Evans.

Maybe Love has elevated beyond being just "a good player on a bad team" , but until he plays on a wining team expected to win a playoff series it's hard to really evaluate where he actually stands. Love has proved he can put up numbers at an efficient rate. I'm still wondering can he be the man... The person you build around. I'm not sure yet.

great post. But the point still stands, and I can tell with your line of reasoning you agree. If Love is going to be held accountable for his team's record when individually evaluating him, Blake is too.

TomTerrific
12-30-2010, 10:33 PM
Kevin Love is WAY better :laugh2: GO WOLVES!

HakeemTheDream
12-30-2010, 10:53 PM
Blake Griffin isn't a great defender either, and their teams suck, I think comparisons to K Love are valid.

dodie53
12-30-2010, 10:54 PM
love > lee
imo

Kashmir13579
12-30-2010, 10:56 PM
you can't be the next somebody when you are already better than they have ever been.
Is Love the next Wes Unseld?

/thread

NaccAttack11
12-30-2010, 11:06 PM
Lee isn't 42 anymore.

JasonJohnHorn
12-30-2010, 11:08 PM
you can't be the next somebody when you are already better than they have ever been.



This.

Its funny though whenever a white player comes up that is good, they get compared to other white players.


If I was going to compare Love to somebody in the NBA whose game he can get to a par with, I'd say Dwight Howard.

Love is a rebounding fiend who doesnt need the ball dumped down into him every play to score 20 points a game, just like Dwight, and both are beasts in the paint on D.

Love puts up 15 shots a game, 5 of which usually come off of offensive boards, so essentially he is scoring about 20 points a game, and he is only shooting on about ten plays a game. That is a lot like Dwight offensively. Dwights got a higher FG%, but he doesnt take as many jump shots as Love.

Some may say, looking at rebounding and scoring numbers, that Love is as good as Dwight, but for me the question is: Could Love put up numbers like this on a playoff team?

Lets not always compare white guys to each other, and lets give Love some credit, he deserves to be in a conversation with Dwight Howard, not David Lee (who I respect as a player as well, but he isn't where Howard and Love are).

Hustla23
12-30-2010, 11:32 PM
visit the stats forum. Chronz actually did a thread on this, and found it to be false.

And your second paragraph I can more than live with.
lol If you ever feel kind enough, please link me to it.

After a long work day and terrible Knicks loss, I'm not up to searching for things. :(

Rafer17
12-30-2010, 11:42 PM
Is it because there both white?? But in all seriousness, Love>>>>Lee

CB29
12-30-2010, 11:49 PM
The Rubio situation I will leave alone. Funny enough, a couple of sites have reported in the past two days that Rubio's camp has given confirmation he is coming next summer, but until he signs the dotted line, I have no right to argue that point.

I think you either needed to elaborate more, or I misunderstood you. Look, Love is a monster talent, WITH LIMITATIONS. I see him being part of a contender, not the leader of one. I have no idea if a superstar will emerge from the current Wolves roster. None. I think they have a couple of future all stars in Love and Beasley (if he can learn to control himself and his shot selection), and I like Wesley, and we have some young talent that can grow into solid pieces at every position.

Rubio has a skillset (elite court vision and defense), that will translate at some point. The great thing is, our team is so young, we have time to be patient on him.

As far as Love's stats go, in the last 28 years, there hasn't been a player on a great, good, ok, below average, or crappy team, that has gone for 20-15. Love's statistical year can not be denied even by the most bias fan, if they have knowledge of advanced statistics.

Will Love be a superstar? Eh. Will he see some all star games? For sure.

And we can call it even with you being a Raps fan haha. Cmon now.


I am happy with the future of my Wolves. They are in every game, and their youth loses out in the end. Teams are loading up on Love anytime he gets near the basket, and he still yanks it down. Players with a nose for the ball, and the ability to shoot from anywhere, are going to be fine. Throw in he has a rebound rate at age 22 that is unmatchable with any current player, and I just don't see how he is not a perennial all star thru his prime.

You know when i really evaluate what i'm trying to say, i think that at its simplest my point is that very few big men in the last 10 years have led their teams to success single-handedly and Kevin Love doesn't seem to be as dominant as them. The op is quite silly comparing Lee to Love as i whole heartedly agree that Love is the better talent. I agree that Minnesota has some good talent but they need that star and i don't know whether you said it or I misinterpreted that you felt that Kevin Love is that star. My point is that Kevin is the Dennis Rodman for a contender. He's not quite your 1st or 2nd guy but rather an essential 3rd without whom the team will not succeed. If he's the second guy i think the team can still be very good but not a championship caliber team because he doesn't have as profound an impact on the game on the offensive and defensive end. Now i'm not saying that it can't develop because he is very young and has good range but for some reason i feel that he is limited and too raw.

The thing about the all-star game is that fans vote. You realize that in the past couple of years that if Kevin Garnett wasn't in the east, Yi Jianlian would have been voted as the starting power forward for the eastern conference but i agree that he's possibly a perennial all-star.

I think that if the wolves can trade guys like beasley/flynn/johnson for a dominant 2 guard and a rebounding center then they are definitely contenders but then again which team isn't in need of a solid center and sg? Finally, i'm still unsure about Love as your top guy but there's no doubting his skills and talent and he'll definitely go down as one of the top 3 players in his draft class.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2010, 11:59 PM
You know when i really evaluate what i'm trying to say, i think that at its simplest my point is that very few big men in the last 10 years have led their teams to success single-handedly and Kevin Love doesn't seem to be as dominant as them. The op is quite silly comparing Lee to Love as i whole heartedly agree that Love is the better talent. I agree that Minnesota has some good talent but they need that star and i don't know whether you said it or I misinterpreted that you felt that Kevin Love is that star. My point is that Kevin is the Dennis Rodman for a contender. He's not quite your 1st or 2nd guy but rather an essential 3rd without whom the team will not succeed. If he's the second guy i think the team can still be very good but not a championship caliber team because he doesn't have as profound an impact on the game on the offensive and defensive end. Now i'm not saying that it can't develop because he is very young and has good range but for some reason i feel that he is limited and too raw.

The thing about the all-star game is that fans vote. You realize that in the past couple of years that if Kevin Garnett wasn't in the east, Yi Jianlian would have been voted as the starting power forward for the eastern conference but i agree that he's possibly a perennial all-star.

I think that if the wolves can trade guys like beasley/flynn/johnson for a dominant 2 guard and a rebounding center then they are definitely contenders but then again which team isn't in need of a solid center and sg? Finally, i'm still unsure about Love as your top guy but there's no doubting his skills and talent and he'll definitely go down as one of the top 3 players in his draft class.

we have both typed a ton of words to agree in principal, I can tell you that.
Love is not a #1 on a contender. I positively can say that. But he can be a HUGE part of a contender, and his season so far can not be ignored. As for the all star team, fans vote in 10/24. Rest assured coaches will get him in there a few times at the least with what he puts up.
We both agree on the point of the thread at this point. Cheers

BKLYNNYRNYKNYY
12-31-2010, 12:02 AM
Its not that were going to say that anyways, but he truly is better. Its the same situation, david lee wouldnt be as good as he is if the knicks didnt trade Z-Randolph, just like K Love wouldnt be what he is this season if they didnt trade Al Jefferson

CB29
12-31-2010, 12:04 AM
we have both typed a ton of words to agree in principal, I can tell you that.
Love is not a #1 on a contender. I positively can say that. But he can be a HUGE part of a contender, and his season so far can not be ignored. As for the all star team, fans vote in 10/24. Rest assured coaches will get him in there a few times at the least with what he puts up.
We both agree on the point of the thread at this point. Cheers

:cheers: :hi5:

beasted86
12-31-2010, 12:08 AM
to your first paragraph, you clearly understand that not only is "stats are easy to get on bad team" a myth, but anytime you state absolutes you border an opinion not worth listening to.

I wasn't really saying stats are easy to get on a bad team. My point was moreso somewhat effecient stats on a bad fast paced team aren't always impressive either.



To your second paragraph, I never stated he would dominate a game with tons of help. But you also know he would dominate certain facets. I don't care if you put him next to Dwight, he is still an elite rebounder. Put him on the Heat. He still gets a 23%+ rebound rate.

What is EFF? I am more interested in his rebound rates, offensive rating, and TS%. His defense will grow over time as he learns tricks.

Hoopdata definition:

EFF: NBA Efficiency Rating: Pts + Rebs + Asts + Stls + Blks - FG missed - FT missed - TOs
A very simple metric based on box score statistics. Not held in very high esteem by the statistical community.
All inclusive stat pretty much. Lee rated 3rd overall in the entire league last year at 26.99. Love is at 27.88 right now a 1/3rd way through the season.

Other posters are alluding to the same idea.... I'm just not sure if Love really can get his numbers, IE: PPG, rebound rate, assist rate, etc.. on a playoff team because he'd pretty much have to have a reduced role for them to be a winning team because he's not a #1 option, you've agreed on that much already.

Hawkeye15
12-31-2010, 12:16 AM
I wasn't really saying stats are easy to get on a bad team. My point was moreso somewhat effecient stats on a bad fast paced team aren't always impressive either.
Hoopdata definition:

All inclusive stat pretty much. Lee rated 3rd overall in the entire league last year at 26.99. Love is at 27.88 right now a 1/3rd way through the season.

Other posters are alluding to the same idea.... I'm just not sure if Love really can get his numbers, IE: PPG, rebound rate, assist rate, etc.. on a playoff team because he'd pretty much have to have a reduced role for them to be a winning team because he's not a #1 option, you've agreed on that much already.

EFF misses some things then. Which is why I wouldn't defend it completely. Its a simplistic rating (if that is the definition) that adds positives per game, and subtracts negatives. It doesn't factor pace, which MUST be used. Which is why those numbers are high (btw, the Knicks pace was overstated last season).

If you think he can't get his per game numbers playing 37 mpg for Miami, you are on to something. But there is no way someone makes a large dent in his rebound rate. Its not just numbers, when you watch him, you realize that 70+ times a year, he owns the boards. There is no other player that does that with his minutes and role (Outside D12).

Mplsman
12-31-2010, 02:06 AM
Is it because there both white?? But in all seriousness, Love>>>>Lee

thisssss

Lim
12-31-2010, 03:48 AM
its amazing how homers judgement always gets clouded. cmon man use your brain not your homer brain.. kevin love is already better then david lee and its not even close