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View Full Version : Why in the World Hasn't Detroit Blown the Team Up Yet?



Tony_Starks
12-22-2010, 06:50 PM
It's obvious they're going nowhere, haven't been the past couple. The extra random signings of Charlie V and Ben are not working. Stuckeys a undersized shoot first pg. On and on and on.

So what are they waiting for? Prince and Rip still have some life in them, if Dumars keeps screwing around their value will only go down. They got him to the conference finals year after year, send them to a contender already. Why make them suffer through this debacle?...... Why not blow it up, get a lottery pick and start from scratch?

ManOnFire
12-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Why ruin a good thing....unfortunately, theyre good at being BAD, so yes they definitely need to retool. Always forget they are still in the league, which is sad. They need to rise to excellence once again.

Tony_Starks
12-22-2010, 06:59 PM
Its crazy man I could see if they were like on the verge of something. They're not even on the verge of mediocrity. Right now they're not good enough for 8th place and not bad enough for a top 10 pick. Dumars is on that stuff......

JWO35
12-22-2010, 07:00 PM
1. The Team is For SALE
2. Joe isn't allowed to take on long term deals
3. The CV & BG was random due to having money to spend now or wait till next year were you can't spend it(look a 1.)
4. If Dumars was to trade either Prince or RIP he would get equal or worst in return(ex. Trade RIP's bad contract for someone else bad contract/Trade Prince expiring contract get an expiring contract in return)

John Walls Era
12-22-2010, 07:00 PM
Ben Gordon + CV

210Don
12-22-2010, 07:15 PM
they are just horrible to watch.. sad because i used to love watching them play.

Hustlenomics
12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
they need to trade Rodney Stuckey and get a good point guard

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
JWO35 is exactly right. The team is in limbo waiting to be sold.

I'll go next...how come Green Bay hasn't been starting Aaron Rodgers?

Gators123
12-22-2010, 07:22 PM
1. The Team is For SALE
2. Joe isn't allowed to take on long term deals
3. The CV & BG was random due to having money to spend now or wait till next year were you can't spend it(look a 1.)
4. If Dumars was to trade either Prince or RIP he would get equal or worst in return(ex. Trade RIP's bad contract for someone else bad contract/Trade Prince expiring contract get an expiring contract in return)

This.

Team can't do anything. Simple as that.

dominater6192
12-22-2010, 07:26 PM
It's obvious they're going nowhere, haven't been the past couple. The extra random signings of Charlie V and Ben are not working. Stuckeys a undersized shoot first pg. On and on and on.

So what are they waiting for? Prince and Rip still have some life in them, if Dumars keeps screwing around their value will only go down. They got him to the conference finals year after year, send them to a contender already. Why make them suffer through this debacle?...... Why not blow it up, get a lottery pick and start from scratch?

Stuckey is 6"5" 200lbs I'm pretty sure thats not undersized. With his size and scoring mindset he is more of a SG who can't shoot than a PG, which indicates why putting him at PG is the core of the Pistons problems.

Tony_Starks
12-22-2010, 07:27 PM
1. The Team is For SALE
2. Joe isn't allowed to take on long term deals
3. The CV & BG was random due to having money to spend now or wait till next year were you can't spend it(look a 1.)
4. If Dumars was to trade either Prince or RIP he would get equal or worst in return(ex. Trade RIP's bad contract for someone else bad contract/Trade Prince expiring contract get an expiring contract in return)


I understand the team is for sale but how exactly does them being horrible but not totally horrible help that? Would it not be better to high draft pick to have some sort of hope? I really don't understand the logic that standing pat is helping them in any way....

xabial
12-22-2010, 08:52 PM
Ben Gordon And Charlie V werent just random signings.
They just blew their cap Space on the best Free Agents of the 2009 FA Class which I compare to the 2000 NBA Draft :laugh2:

Ty Fast
12-22-2010, 09:09 PM
i thnk they will have a hard time moving some of those salaries

Tony_Starks
12-22-2010, 09:39 PM
i thnk they will have a hard time moving some of those salaries


Not really. There are a lot of teams in the market for a legit 2 or a 3 that can defend. A contender would take them on but it would mean taking back lesser value and basically giving up on the season. Which is exactly what they should do because for all intents and purposes its over anyway and they can let some of their good young guys get some PT.

Giraffes Rule
12-22-2010, 09:45 PM
Not really. There are a lot of teams in the market for a legit 2 or a 3 that can defend. A contender would take them on but it would mean taking back lesser value and basically giving up on the season. Which is exactly what they should do because for all intents and purposes its over anyway and they can let some of their good young guys get some PT.

Do you have any feasible examples of who would be willing to take on Rip Hamilton and his contract right now? Cuz I can't think of any team that's in contention that would want him.

Tony_Starks
12-22-2010, 09:55 PM
Do you have any feasible examples of who would be willing to take on Rip Hamilton and his contract right now? Cuz I can't think of any team that's in contention that would want him.


Sure. Dallas has been said to still not be satisfied, even though they're winning, and would still like to add another piece to put them over the top. Chicago is looking for a legit 2 gaurd to take some pressure off Rose and put them over the top. Utah has AK47's big contract in his last year and could use a legit 2 or 3. Those are feasible examples.

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 10:01 PM
Ben Gordon And Charlie V werent just random signings.
They just blew their cap Space on the best Free Agents of the 2009 FA Class which I compare to the 2000 NBA Draft :laugh2:

You're clueless. They weren't going to land any of those FA's and chose to be proactive. Detroit isn't exactly a hotspot destination for free agents and as you can see 3 of those players went to the same team for chrissakes. How many of those teams that cleared out cap space in hopes of landing someone came up empty-handed? Exactly.

Hawkeye15
12-22-2010, 10:03 PM
because they have too many bloated long term contracts, suspect youth to move, and no picks besides their own. There are consequences to being an elite team over time. And they are suffering from them now

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 10:12 PM
And look at the FA contracts that were just signed this offseason - we actually got Gordon and Villanueva on pretty good deals. Rips contract was a bad one though that surprised everyone at the time. We'll be back on the upswing by next year we just need to get this team sold, first and foremost.

xabial
12-22-2010, 10:15 PM
because they have too many bloated long term contracts, suspect youth to move, and no picks besides their own. There are consequences to being an elite team over time. And they are suffering from them now

Then How come it seems like the Lakers get a Super Star Every 10 Years?

fadedmario
12-22-2010, 10:19 PM
team's for sale....duh

THE WALL
12-22-2010, 10:28 PM
It's obvious they're going nowhere, haven't been the past couple. The extra random signings of Charlie V and Ben are not working. Stuckeys a undersized shoot first pg. On and on and on.

So what are they waiting for? Prince and Rip still have some life in them, if Dumars keeps screwing around their value will only go down. They got him to the conference finals year after year, send them to a contender already. Why make them suffer through this debacle?...... Why not blow it up, get a lottery pick and start from scratch?

wtf??? he's 6'5''

Giraffes Rule
12-22-2010, 10:29 PM
Sure. Dallas has been said to still not be satisfied, even though they're winning, and would still like to add another piece to put them over the top. Chicago is looking for a legit 2 gaurd to take some pressure off Rose and put them over the top. Utah has AK47's big contract in his last year and could use a legit 2 or 3. Those are feasible examples.

When I say feasible, I mean trades that would work. Do they have the pieces to make those trades happen? Looking at the Bulls roster, they couldn't make a Rip trade work. Dallas could move Caron Butler as an expiring and use a trade exception, so I guess that could work. I don't see how they benefit from that at all though. Butler imo is a better player than Rip is right now, and the Mavs wouldn't mind having his money come off the books to use next season either. I don't see how Utah gets any better by trading for Rip Hamilton right now either.

Sadds The Gr8
12-22-2010, 10:39 PM
i was wondering the same thing. They just queefed on us though.

king4day
12-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Signinng CV and BG to those contracts hurt them big time.
I agree about dealing off Prince and Rip while they can. Not for the sake of doing them a favor, but those guys might help other teams that are missing a SG or PF. Then get what you can back for them and retool if possible.

JasonJohnHorn
12-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Fair question.

Dumars has, in the past, been more than happy to cut his losses in certain situations, but I think with the team in flux, and teams not quite ready to give up too much, Detroit is waiting until the trade dead line to see what pops up.

I imagine part of what Joe D. wanted going into this season is to see what this healthy Pistons roster could do, and to see if the McGrady gamble would pay off. McGrady seems to be getting his legs back, but at this point it seems clear the team is going nowhere. If Mcgrady starts playing well, he could be trade bait, but yeah, I expect by the trade deadline to see some cap-clearing moves that bring in draft picks and young talent.

At least, that's what i hope to see.

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 10:52 PM
Signinng CV and BG to those contracts hurt them big time.
I agree about dealing off Prince and Rip while they can. Not for the sake of doing them a favor, but those guys might help other teams that are missing a SG or PF. Then get what you can back for them and retool if possible.

How do you figure? You could of had Joe Johnson for 120 million or BG for half that with the same production. Look at the contracts that bigs signed for this offseason compared to Villanuevas. Villanueva has been very good this year and Gordon has had stretches. Gordon just needs the minutes and he's about to get them.

Gators123
12-22-2010, 10:54 PM
Dumars just said a couple days ago that a lot of teams ask about Gordon and CV.

xabial
12-22-2010, 11:18 PM
You're clueless. They weren't going to land any of those FA's and chose to be proactive. Detroit isn't exactly a hotspot destination for free agents and as you can see 3 of those players went to the same team for chrissakes. How many of those teams that cleared out cap space in hopes of landing someone came up empty-handed? Exactly.

No Your Clueless. If you knew you weren't going to get Any Free Agents in 2010, and beyond you don't just waste valuable cap space on Crap Free Agents of the 2009 FA Class. If their bad right now cant be that much worse with their young players. I mean seriously their record is 10-19 so far this year, last year they were 23-59 For the season. They could've done so much better without paying Ben Gordon 5 Years $55 Million, and Charlie V 5 years $35M. They could've used the Cap Space To Trade For Better players with Longer Contracts. Anythings better then giving Ben Gordon and Charlie V $90M Combined, over the Next five years. Cap Space is a valuable thing in the NBA...

SluggeR
12-22-2010, 11:21 PM
I think Tayshawn Prince has the most value of the pieces that they are willing to move. He would be great on a contending team or a young team that is on the verge to break through to the upper enchalant. Ben Gordon is a closer/hired assassin, some team that can afford/need his firepower could take this contract off of the Pistons hands. Stuckey could bring them back something good. Teams like the Kings or the Blazers could use a scoring guard to play along their ball handling 2guards.

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 11:25 PM
Bens last year in Chicago he put up the same numbers as Joe Johnson did last year and Johnson got a 120 million dollar deal. What did Ben get? 55? He's still Ben Gordon, just hasn't been getting consistent minutes. Charlie got 35 million - did you see what kind of contracts bigs were getting this offseason? How much did Darko get? How much did Amir Johnson get? Isn't Brendan Haywood asking for like 10 million a year still? Villanueva has had a very good year. You're ridiculous.

EdGein812
12-22-2010, 11:31 PM
Seriously. You were bashing them for not waiting a year and taking a chance at a few players who weren't going to come here in the first place. THAT's why you are clueless.

Tony_Starks
12-23-2010, 12:08 AM
To me I say "random signings" not so much for the players in themselves (though Charlie V is a headscratcher), I mean signing them with the team they already have in mind. It just didn't make sense unless you were going to move someone.

Now they just have an awkward, log jammed team. On paper they actually look nice, but the pieces don't fit.

Not to mention the last two coaches haven't exactly been very inspirational to say the least. If at all possible I'd start from scratch. They're going to have to eventually anyway.

Hustla23
12-23-2010, 12:17 AM
because they have too many bloated long term contracts, suspect youth to move, and no picks besides their own. There are consequences to being an elite team over time. And they are suffering from them now
.... These aren't the consequences of being an elite team.

These are the consequences of being stupid.

Trading for A.I., signing Villanueva and Ben Gordon to ridiculous deals, etc, etc.

Jester4k0
12-23-2010, 12:22 AM
To me I say "random signings" not so much for the players in themselves (though Charlie V is a headscratcher), I mean signing them with the team they already have in mind. It just didn't make sense unless you were going to move someone.

Now they just have an awkward, log jammed team. On paper they actually look nice, but the pieces don't fit.

Not to mention the last two coaches haven't exactly been very inspirational to say the least. If at all possible I'd start from scratch. They're going to have to eventually anyway.


So far a pretty spirited debate concerning the sad state of the the Pistons. I tend to agree with Ed, et. al about the reason they are in this position. Namely, the franchise is in limbo due to a pending ownership change and it's not a prime destination for players.

Now, concerning bloated contracts that were handed out in the offseason, I think that Joe was very shrewd with the contracts he handed prior to the 09 season, especially when compared to those deals handed out last offseason. There were role players that hit the freakin' lottery.

I bolded the above comment to remind the poster that the Pistons needed another 6'11" power forward to roam the three point line following Rasheed's departure.

The biggest issues on court are lack of stability of coaching staffs and the logjam at SG. Not enough minutes in a game to get streak shooters on track.

xabial
12-23-2010, 12:40 AM
Seriously. You were bashing them for not waiting a year and taking a chance at a few players who weren't going to come here in the first place. THAT's why you are clueless.

No, you misunderstood my post. I was bashing them for wasting cap space on the 09 Crap FA Class BECAUSE they knew they weren't going any where in the 10' class and beyond. Cap Space in the NBA isn't just used to Sign Free Agents. It opens a lot of flexibility in Trading For Players, and to improve your team. Cap Space is very valuable..
Sure its a gamble to Trade For Players on the Trading block whose Teams want to shed of their contracts, but id Trade Any Day Over Signing Ben And Charlie V to Long Term financially binding Deals, who aren't even committed to Playing Defense. (Especially Ben, he's way to undersized). What happened to Detroit Basketball? The City Of Detroit and their Fans deserve so much More.

detroit81
12-23-2010, 12:44 AM
Coach should go before any player...whos plays 10 and 11 man rotations...just ridicules...bynums ok but should not be getting the minutes he does...why maxiel plays i dont know...Rip Stuckey Prince Wallace Charlie Tmac Gordan and Monroe should be the only ones on the court

Corey
12-23-2010, 01:30 AM
Bens last year in Chicago he put up the same numbers as Joe Johnson did last year and Johnson got a 120 million dollar deal. What did Ben get? 55? He's still Ben Gordon, just hasn't been getting consistent minutes.

A 55 million dollar contract to a player that's having a hard time finding minutes?

Big difference between JJ and Ben Gordon. Gordon is a microwave scorer trapped in a point guard's body. The downside of this? Ben Gordon doesn't know how / can't play point guard.

I'd quite honestly rather have Joe Johnson playing point guard on my team than Ben Gordon, and Joe Johnson is the ideal size for a quick forward.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 01:37 AM
Not really. There are a lot of teams in the market for a legit 2 or a 3 that can defend. A contender would take them on but it would mean taking back lesser value and basically giving up on the season. Which is exactly what they should do because for all intents and purposes its over anyway and they can let some of their good young guys get some PT.

I don't think you realize just how bad Rip is and that contract. He literally is a detriment at this point. And he's owed roughly 35mil or so the next 3 years. I don't know what the hell Dumars was thinking with that extension in 08. And then you got CV....

I don't think Gordon is too bad. He's proven he can play up to that contract when healthy and his injury history has been good minus last season.
But CV and Rip will keep that team handcuffed for a long time unfortunately.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 01:41 AM
A 55 million dollar contract to a player that's having a hard time finding minutes?

Because Kuester is a moron? Because he's handcuffed between angering the vets (Wallace, Prince and Rip) and not playing Rip or playing Rip and thus doing worse. Gordon deserves most of the minutes at the 2 guard. He has shown that with a very good ts%, efg% and being a great scorer. And he's definitely worth 55mil in this day.


Big difference between JJ and Ben Gordon. Gordon is a microwave scorer trapped in a point guard's body. The downside of this? Ben Gordon doesn't know how / can't play point guard.
I'd quite honestly rather have Joe Johnson playing point guard on my team than Ben Gordon, and Joe Johnson is the ideal size for a quick forward.

The difference isn't 65mil worth.
And Gordon is a much more efficient scorer than Johnson who doesn't wilt under pressure.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 01:46 AM
Dumars just said a couple days ago that a lot of teams ask about Gordon and CV.

Oh cmon. You really going to trust a gm's word? What's he going to say? That teams want nothing to do with them?

And the whole team is under sale excuse needs to end. Truth is no team in their right mind will take those horrendous contracts. For the record I referring mostly CV and Rip. I mean, pretend you are some other team gm, why the hell would you want either one of those overpaid bums?


because they have too many bloated long term contracts, suspect youth to move, and no picks besides their own. There are consequences to being an elite team over time. And they are suffering from them now

I think it's more of a consequence from a gm having an ego. Dumars did an amazing job taking a bunch of "outcasts" and turning it into a contender for 6+ years. He thought he could do it again with Gordon and CV. Bit him in the ***. That and lack of foresight thinking extending Rip at 08 was good idea when he was clearly regressing and getting up their in age/

Tony_Starks
12-23-2010, 01:49 AM
I don't think you realize just how bad Rip is and that contract. He literally is a detriment at this point. And he's owed roughly 35mil or so the next 3 years. I don't know what the hell Dumars was thinking with that extension in 08. And then you got CV....

I don't think Gordon is too bad. He's proven he can play up to that contract when healthy and his injury history has been good minus last season.
But CV and Rip will keep that team handcuffed for a long time unfortunately.


Well Im talking mostly about trading Rip and Prince. For whatever reason from what I've been reading all season teams are still interested in Rip and have always been interested in Prince. Like you said Gordon ehh ok, and CV oh well they're just screwed and will have to eat that one.

But those guys can be traded the question is, is the franchise able/willing to take back just bodies on short deals in return to basically tank it?

Gators123
12-23-2010, 01:51 AM
Oh cmon. You really going to trust a gm's word? What's he going to say? That teams want nothing to do with them?

And the whole team is under sale excuse needs to end. Truth is no team in their right mind will take those horrendous contracts. For the record I referring mostly CV and Rip. I mean, pretend you are some other team gm, why the hell would you want either one of those overpaid bums?



I think it's more of a consequence from a gm having an ego. Dumars did an amazing job taking a bunch of "outcasts" and turning it into a contender for 6+ years. He thought he could do it again with Gordon and CV. Bit him in the ***. That and lack of foresight thinking extending Rip at 08 was good idea when he was clearly regressing and getting up their in age/

ESPN and other sources said Pistons and Wolves were close to a trade for Al Jefferson but the Pistons owner rejected it because the team was for sale.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 01:56 AM
Well Im talking mostly about trading Rip and Prince. For whatever reason from what I've been reading all season teams are still interested in Rip and have always been interested in Prince. Like you said Gordon ehh ok, and CV oh well they're just screwed and will have to eat that one.

But those guys can be traded the question is, is the franchise able/willing to take back just bodies on short deals in return to basically tank it?

I don't buy those sources that teams are interested. There was a rumor that Bulls were interested and I didn't buy it for a second. He really is THAT bad. The difference in his o-rating and d-rating has been in the negative in double-digits the past 2 seasons. That's ****ing AWFUL. And to top it off, he's owed 36mil over the next 3 years.
Prince is nothing more than an expiring, they won't get much. Especially in a year that is FULL of trade exceptions because of this past free agency. The only team I can see stupid enough into trading for either is Charlotte.
Their best plan would probably be just to buy out Rip so he wouldn't be an issue anymore. Though I doubt Dumars has the balls to do it for their longest tenured player who he probably has a good relation with.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 01:57 AM
ESPN and other sources said Pistons and Wolves were close to a trade for Al Jefferson but the Pistons owner rejected it because the team was for sale.

My point still stands. Even if not for the sale, you will find it hard time to convince me that there are actually teams willing to trade for Villanueva and/or Rip.

Gators123
12-23-2010, 01:59 AM
My point still stands. Even if not for the sale, you will find it hard time to convince me that there are actually teams willing to trade for Villanueva and/or Rip.

It was for Prince + picks or something, I don't remember

Prince will be extremely easy to move. Hes been pretty good plus he has a expiring contract.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:01 AM
It was for Prince + picks or something i don't remember

Prince will be extremely easy to move. Hes been pretty good plus he has a expiring contract.

He's not someone who is urgent to move though cause as you just mentioned he's an expiring either way.
And it's not like you can expect a big return for him either way.
Rip and CV is what keeping this team hostage. People want to include Gordon but I don't think he's that bad. A little overpaid? Yes. But he's still productive an every team has an overpaid player or two.

Gators123
12-23-2010, 02:02 AM
Is CV's contract really THAT bad?

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:06 AM
Is CV's contract really THAT bad?

31mil over 4 years? I think he is.
This is a guy who really shouldn't be playing. His ts% sucks (never in his career has he had a ts% over .55 which is AWFUL for a big man), he's an awful defender, and an awful rebounder. What the hell does he do right? There has never been a positive difference between his o-rating and d-rating.

See this is the difference for me between a Cleveland team and a Detroit team. Neither team has any real promising player to build around. Both have a few nice prospects. However Cleveland at least won't look so bad salary wise next season while Detroit's future looks bleak at least for the next 3 years.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 02:17 AM
I don't think you realize just how bad Rip is and that contract. He literally is a detriment at this point. And he's owed roughly 35mil or so the next 3 years. I don't know what the hell Dumars was thinking with that extension in 08. And then you got CV....

I don't think Gordon is too bad. He's proven he can play up to that contract when healthy and his injury history has been good minus last season.
But CV and Rip will keep that team handcuffed for a long time unfortunately.

Just how bad Rip is? Rip put up 35 pts off the bench today in 28 minutes. He's not a bad player, he just needs to play in a system with a true point. He doesn't mesh well with Stuckey at all.

He's owed 35min or so the next 3 years? After this season he has one more guaranteed season then it goes down to 9Mil for his final season in 12/13.

Also Dumars recently said CV is the player that teams are calling about the most along with Gordon. I don't want either of them traded.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:20 AM
Just how bad Rip is? Rip put up 35 pts off the bench today in 28 minutes. He's not a bad player, he just needs to play in a system with a true point. He doesn't mesh well with Stuckey at all.

He's owed 35min or so the next 3 years? After this season he has one more guaranteed season then it goes down to 9Mil for his final season in 12/13.

Also Dumars recently said CV is the player that teams are calling about the most along with Gordon. I don't want either of them traded.

Did they restructure his contracts cause this is what I see.
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pistons.jsp

As for Rip scoring 35 points? So what. Every player will have a great game every now and then. My point still stands, he has been bad the past 3 seasons. And it will only get worse as he continues to age.

As for what Dumars said, I'll say it again, what do you expect him to say? That no one wants anything to do with them?

And I have no idea how you can possibly want Villanueva to remain. He sucks hard.

Gators123
12-23-2010, 02:24 AM
http://www.pistonpowered.com/salary-chart/


Richard Hamilton signed a three-year, $37.5 million extension in November 2008. The third season is guaranteed for $9 million until July 1, 2012, and the contract also contains $150,000 in unlikely incentives, according to ShamSports.com.

Gators123
12-23-2010, 02:25 AM
As for what Dumars said, I'll say it again, what do you expect him to say? That no one wants anything to do with them?



I do believe him because he wasn't asked about it. He said it on his own.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 02:27 AM
31mil over 4 years? I think he is.
This is a guy who really shouldn't be playing. His ts% sucks (never in his career has he had a ts% over .55 which is AWFUL for a big man), he's an awful defender, and an awful rebounder. What the hell does he do right? There has never been a positive difference between his o-rating and d-rating.

See this is the difference for me between a Cleveland team and a Detroit team. Neither team has any real promising player to build around. Both have a few nice prospects. However Cleveland at least won't look so bad salary wise next season while Detroit's future looks bleak at least for the next 3 years.

Considering the contracts handed out in the offseason, CV's contract isn't bad at all. I mean CV makes a few more mil a season than Korver, and Korver is trash at everything except shooting.

Maybe Detroit will get lucky like the Bulls and get a nice draft pick, but it sure as hell won't take a decade to get things right.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:28 AM
I do believe him because he wasn't asked about it. He said it on his own.

In which case gms out there might be dumber than I thought. Or Dumars is getting ****ty packages. I wouldn't be surprised about offer for BG though. It's Villanueva I'd be shocked about. I'd expect an equally bad contract in return to be honest.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:31 AM
Considering the contracts handed out in the offseason, CV's contract isn't bad at all. I mean CV makes a few more mil a season than Korver, and Korver is trash at everything except shooting.

Maybe Detroit will get lucky like the Bulls and get a nice draft pick, but it sure as hell won't take a decade to get things right.

Except Korver is one hell of a shooter. And has had a great ts% for many seasons. He's payed like a role player and one who is masterful at his role.
Villanueva is paid like a high-impact role player and yet he doesn't do anything. And it's especially bad when it's a big man who is awful at rebounding and defending cause that should be a requirement from all big men if you want a championship caliber team.

And with the way Detroit is looking, it very well may take a decade. For most teams it takes much more time. So much about the NBA is lucking into that franchise player and unfortunately there are very few such players.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 02:33 AM
Did they restructure his contracts cause this is what I see.
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/pistons.jsp

As for Rip scoring 35 points? So what. Every player will have a great game every now and then. My point still stands, he has been bad the past 3 seasons. And it will only get worse as he continues to age.

As for what Dumars said, I'll say it again, what do you expect him to say? That no one wants anything to do with them?

And I have no idea how you can possibly want Villanueva to remain. He sucks hard.

lol. every player occasionaly scores 25-35 points like Rip? I bet Keith Bogans had a few of those huh? I bet Turkoglu has also, I mean he was just traded.

Yeah I guess I should listen to a bulls fan over a GM, clearly you hold more cred. You obviously just don't understand that GM's are limited financially when their team is for sale.

abe_froman
12-23-2010, 02:35 AM
pride-they are looking to win(and be seen as a clear win) on a trade rather than cost their losses,which no one is going to offer anything that great for the contracts that need to be moved.which is dragging out the rebuilding thing unnecessarily longer

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:39 AM
lol. every player occasionaly scores 25-35 points like Rip? I bet Keith Bogans had a few of those huh? I bet Turkoglu has also, I mean he was just traded.

Yeah I guess I should listen to a bulls fan over a GM, clearly you hold more cred. You obviously just don't understand that GM's are limited financially when their team is for sale.

Rip hasn't been that player for 3 seasons now. And when you try to score 25-35 points with a ts% below .53, then you are a detriment to your team, not a positive. Even if you score a bunch of points. You are doing it inefficiently.

What does Keith Bogans have anything to do with it? He sucks, but he doesn't try scoring a bunch either. And in doing so, his inefficient scoring doesn't hurt his team as much as Rip's does. For every 30+pt game Rip has, he hurts his team with 10 other games where he shoots like ****.

Don't make this personal, there are many moves that many casual or diehard fan can point out as a stupid move right away. Whether it was wasting that cap on Villanueva and Gordon, or the contract Turkoglu got, or the many idiotic contracts handed out this offseason.

If you can't talk about your team objectively here with other fans without getting upset, then don't.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 02:44 AM
Except Korver is one hell of a shooter. And has had a great ts% for many seasons. He's payed like a role player and one who is masterful at his role.
Villanueva is paid like a high-impact role player and yet he doesn't do anything. And it's especially bad when it's a big man who is awful at rebounding and defending cause that should be a requirement from all big men if you want a championship caliber team.

And with the way Detroit is looking, it very well may take a decade. For most teams it takes much more time. So much about the NBA is lucking into that franchise player and unfortunately there are very few such players.

yeah Korver's per of 12-13 is just amazing. How about Bargnani's contract? Okur? Frye? R. Lewis? 3 pt shooting bigs get paid decent money.

The Pistons have never relied on getting lottery picks every season until they get a franchise player like some teams such as the Bulls, which is why they've been winners the past 3 decades.

Gators123
12-23-2010, 02:50 AM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Antawn Jamison 2010-11 34 25 705 14.6 .490 .462 5.0 19.6 12.0 10.1 1.3 1.0 6.9 24.3 99 109 0.1 0.5 0.6 0.042
2 Rashard Lewis 2010-11 31 25 810 11.4 .524 .500 3.4 12.0 7.8 6.0 1.4 1.0 10.8 18.7 103 103 0.4 1.2 1.6 0.093
3 Charlie Villanueva 2010-11 26 27 705 16.3 .544 .512 3.6 20.1 11.6 3.6 1.2 2.8 8.2 24.1 106 109 0.8 0.5 1.3 0.090

He doesn't look so bad now! :eyebrow:

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:52 AM
yeah Korver's per of 12-13 is just amazing.

If you are going to judge a pure shooter purely on his PER, then you need to learn how to properly use statistics.
Again, Korver came to Chicago for one reason. His shooting. And as a shooter he has shot over 40% from 3 and has a ts% at around .58. He has done what was expect from his contract. I bet you think Mike Miller is overpaid too, huh?




How about Bargnani's contract? Okur? Frye? R. Lewis? 3 pt shooting bigs get paid decent money.

All overpaid, badly. Except for maybe Frye. All also shoot MUCH better than CV.



The Pistons have never relied on getting lottery picks every season until they get a franchise player like some teams such as the Bulls, which is why they've been winners the past 3 decades.

:laugh2:

If this is some attempt at a shot at me, then it was poorly done. You won't find me denying that the Bulls were TERRIBLY mismanaged from 99-02. Then Paxson came and had to do a TON of cleaning up. What Detroit did in 04 was something that almost never worked. In fact it didn't work when Dumars tried it again by signing Gordon and CV. And while we are at it, they sure were winners in the 90s. :rolleyes:
Three decades my ***. 2 decades at most. And past doesn't matter to me either way. And by the way what hell is Isiah Thomas, Vinnie Johnson or Grant Hill?

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 02:54 AM
Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Antawn Jamison 2010-11 34 25 705 14.6 .490 .462 5.0 19.6 12.0 10.1 1.3 1.0 6.9 24.3 99 109 0.1 0.5 0.6 0.042
2 Rashard Lewis 2010-11 31 25 810 11.4 .524 .500 3.4 12.0 7.8 6.0 1.4 1.0 10.8 18.7 103 103 0.4 1.2 1.6 0.093
3 Charlie Villanueva 2010-11 26 27 705 16.3 .544 .512 3.6 20.1 11.6 3.6 1.2 2.8 8.2 24.1 106 109 0.8 0.5 1.3 0.090

He doesn't look so bad now! :eyebrow:

They are all bad!
Rashard Lewis is widely considered to have been given the worst contract of all time. Jamison's contract also sucks. Comparing a turd to other turds doesn't make that turd any less of a turd.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 02:57 AM
Rip hasn't been that player for 3 seasons now. And when you try to score 25-35 points with a ts% below .53, then you are a detriment to your team, not a positive. Even if you score a bunch of points. You are doing it inefficiently.

What does Keith Bogans have anything to do with it? He sucks, but he doesn't try scoring a bunch either. And in doing so, his inefficient scoring doesn't hurt his team as much as Rip's does. For every 30+pt game Rip has, he hurts his team with 10 other games where he shoots like ****.

Don't make this personal, there are many moves that many casual or diehard fan can point out as a stupid move right away. Whether it was wasting that cap on Villanueva and Gordon, or the contract Turkoglu got, or the many idiotic contracts handed out this offseason.

If you can't talk about your team objectively here with other fans without getting upset, then don't.


You're talking about another franchise that you have no idea about. From the business standpoint to the players, you're completely ignorant yet you're trying to sound like an expert. Any semi-knowledgeable NBA fan knows Rip has to play with a prototypical PG to succeed at his game. You really don't see how the Billups trade coincides with Rip's decline in production? Really?

Why would Dumars lie about BG & CV having good trade value around the league? BG & CV are prob the most popular players this season, most of us don't want them traded unless we get solid picks/prospects in return. If Dumars was going to lie wouldn't he say Rip, Tay, or Maxiell? That would make Pistons fans happy.

If you want to talk about a team objectivly, don't call players on other teams trash or scrubs and pretend to be more knowledable than fans who read into their team everyday. If I started talking about how the Bulls overpaid a bunch of injury-prone, underachieving nobodies who've accomplished nothing in their career, would that be cool with you?

Monta is beast
12-23-2010, 03:03 AM
How is Stuckey undersized. He is 6'5?

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 03:08 AM
If you are going to judge a pure shooter purely on his PER, then you need to learn how to properly use statistics.
Again, Korver came to Chicago for one reason. His shooting. And as a shooter he has shot over 40% from 3 and has a ts% at around .58. He has done what was expect from his contract. I bet you think Mike Miller is overpaid too, huh?





All overpaid, badly. Except for maybe Frye. All also shoot MUCH better than CV.




:laugh2:

If this is some attempt at a shot at me, then it was poorly done. You won't find me denying that the Bulls were TERRIBLY mismanaged from 99-02. Then Paxson came and had to do a TON of cleaning up. What Detroit did in 04 was something that almost never worked. In fact it didn't work when Dumars tried it again by signing Gordon and CV. And while we are at it, they sure were winners in the 90s. :rolleyes:
Three decades my ***. 2 decades at most. And past doesn't matter to me either way. And by the way what hell is Isiah Thomas or Grant Hill?

CV impacts the game more than Korver, hence a higher per, hence he's more valuable. So you think Dumars thought CV was the next Big Ben or Dwight when he signed him? Pretty sure he knew his game. Players like Jason Terry & Crawford get paid much more and neither play d.


All shoot MUCH better than CV, huh?

Frye - 43%fg - 36%3
Lewis - 41%fg - 36%3
Bargnani - 47%fg, 36%3

CV - 42%fg. 36%3


pls stop making up nonsense, thx.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 03:11 AM
You're talking about another franchise that you have no idea about. From the business standpoint to the players, you're completely ignorant yet you're trying to sound like an expert. Any semi-knowledgeable NBA fan knows Rip has to play with a prototypical PG to succeed at his game. You really don't see how the Billups trade coincides with Rip's decline in production? Really?

I see excuses. I see a 32 year old declining BECAUSE HE'S 32!
I see a gm who failed in that case cause he didn't provide Rip that pg after JUST EXTENDING Rip and making that AWFUL AI for Billups trade then following it up with two very shortsighted deals for Gordon and Villanueva. Again, no pg. So clearly your gm didn't see it either.
I guess everyone in this thread is "ignorant" and has no idea what they were talking about. Because most posters here that aren't Pistons fans have said basically the same thing as I have said.
I think you aren't objective because you are a fan of your team.
And if it upsets you that posters here are so "ignorant" of what goes on with Detroit, THEN DON'T POST in the NBA forum.
I got all the stats in front of me that show that both Rip and CV have been inefficient players. Especially when considering how much they are paid.


Why would Dumars lie about BG & CV having good trade value around the league? BG & CV are prob the most popular players this season, most of us don't want them traded unless we get solid picks/prospects in return. If Dumars was going to lie wouldn't he say Rip, Tay, or Maxiell? That would make Pistons fans happy.

It's called trade value. Because Gordon and CV have the biggest contracts on the team and need to be traded. Well Gordon at least has value.


If you want to talk about a team objectivly, don't call players on other teams trash or scrubs and pretend to be more knowledable than fans who read into their team everyday. If I started talking about how the Bulls overpaid a bunch of injury-prone, underachieving nobodies who've accomplished nothing in their career, would that be cool with you?

The difference is that I back my point with stats and reasons. And the difference is that the current Bulls team is successful. Meanwhile Detroit has been heavily struggling.
Being objective also means not letting the love for a player get in the way of reasoning which can easily be found using statistics. Not one stat will show that Rip or CV have been playing up to par. Be it their mediocre PER or ts%. Neither is good for either.

If you were to call out the Bulls team I had watch from 99-04, I'd agree with you. They sucked. They looked like a mess. Unfortunately, Detroit is at that stage atm.

If you can't accept that Detroit is currently in the crapper and likey will be for at least 2-3 years unless they luck out in the lottery, or that it's too upsetting for you to discuss it without making it personal then I'm sorry. It's unfortunate we can't have a good basketball discussion then. :shrug:

NetsPaint
12-23-2010, 03:15 AM
Kyle Korver is the best player on the Bulls.

EdGein812
12-23-2010, 03:19 AM
A 55 million dollar contract to a player that's having a hard time finding minutes?

Big difference between JJ and Ben Gordon. Gordon is a microwave scorer trapped in a point guard's body. The downside of this? Ben Gordon doesn't know how / can't play point guard.

I'd quite honestly rather have Joe Johnson playing point guard on my team than Ben Gordon, and Joe Johnson is the ideal size for a quick forward.

Well of course he can't. Gordon is a shooting guard all the way albeit undersized. And I'd honestly rather have JJ too...just not for twice as much money. Considering that, I'd take Gordon all day. Though Gordon has struggled it's mostly because he wasn't getting the minutes while they were trying to showcase Rip for a trade - not because he can't break the rotation. Rip wore out his welcome and they are finally giving Gordon what he earned.

And what's with this point guard thing you keep bringing up? Neither of 'em are and neither of 'em should. I don't want either of them playing center either. I get it...he's small. That's why he's traditionally come off the bench. Not your ideal size for a SG but size isn't everything.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 03:20 AM
CV impacts the game more than Korver, hence a higher per, hence he's more valuable.

Unfortunately that's not how PER works and that's why you can't just use a single stat to judge players. Stats come with CONTEXT. Until you understand that, you will be unable to properly judge players.
Again Korver came to the Bulls for one role, shoot 3's. He's done that VERY well. And has a high ts% because of that.
What's Villanueva's role? What exactly does he bring that's positive? He's inefficient, he can't defend, he can't rebound. WHAT THE HELL IS HIS ROLE?!

Oh and btw one of PERs biggest flaws is that it puts too much weight on fga. It's why chuckers might have a high PER even if they are hurting their team.


So you think Dumars thought CV was the next Big Ben or Dwight when he signed him? Pretty sure he knew his game. Players like Jason Terry & Crawford get paid much more and neither play d.

Jason Terry and Jamal Crawford are perimeter players and as such have much less effect on team defense. A team defense is built inside, out. You can have a great team defense with a poor perimter defender here and there. Boston did it with Allen, Lakers do it with Fisher, San Antonio with Parker, etc. However you can't have a great defense if your big men are awful defenders. Such is CV. And my belief is that Dumars thought he could turn CV into Sheed.
Also Terry anad Crawford are both efficient scorers for their positions. Both have had ts%'s over .53 which is the average ts% for perimeter players. For big men, the average is .55. Villanueva has never been at .55 or over IN HIS CAREER. EVER.


All shoot MUCH better than CV, huh?

Frye - 43%fg - 36%3
Lewis - 41%fg - 36%3
Bargnani - 47%fg, 36%3

CV - 42%fg. 36%3


pls stop making up nonsense, thx.

Yup.
My only mistake was Lewis who heavily regressed from a ts% of .57 last year to .52 this year. Every other player on that list has a much higher ts% than Villanueva. Fact. And so did last season's Lewis and before that. If you actually want to talk about statistics, don't bring me amateur stats like fg% when discussing efficiency. I expect ts% or efg%. Or 3pt% if we are talking about 3pt shooting.

Again, just answer this question and I'll be on my way. What does Villanueva bring that's positive to the team. What is the role that he's good at?

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 03:46 AM
I see excuses. I see a 32 year old declining BECAUSE HE'S 32!
I see a gm who failed in that case cause he didn't provide Rip that pg after JUST EXTENDING Rip and making that AWFUL AI for Billups trade then following it up with two very shortsighted deals for Gordon and Villanueva. Again, no pg. So clearly your gm didn't see it either.
I guess everyone in this thread is "ignorant" and has no idea what they were talking about. Because most posters here that aren't Pistons fans have said basically the same thing as I have said.
I think you aren't objective because you are a fan of your team.
And if it upsets you that posters here are so "ignorant" of what goes on with Detroit, THEN DON'T POST in the NBA forum.
I got all the stats in front of me that show that both Rip and CV have been inefficient players. Especially when considering how much they are paid.



It's called trade value. Because Gordon and CV have the biggest contracts on the team and need to be traded. Well Gordon at least has value.



The difference is that I back my point with stats and reasons. And the difference is that the current Bulls team is successful. Meanwhile Detroit has been heavily struggling.
Being objective also means not letting the love for a player get in the way of reasoning which can easily be found using statistics. Not one stat will show that Rip or CV have been playing up to par. Be it their mediocre PER or ts%. Neither is good for either.

If you were to call out the Bulls team I had watch from 99-04, I'd agree with you. They sucked. They looked like a mess. Unfortunately, Detroit is at that stage atm.

If you can't accept that Detroit is currently in the crapper and likey will be for at least 2-3 years unless they luck out in the lottery, or that it's too upsetting for you to discuss it without making it personal then I'm sorry. It's unfortunate we can't have a good basketball discussion then. :shrug:

Dumars prematurely traded Billups as he thought Stuckey showed enough potential when he started in the playoffs and led them to the ECF when Billups was injured. Billups for AI move was stricly for cap relief. Signing Rip to an extension was a mistake as we had Afflalo, although he had no idea Gordon was going to be a free agent. If Dumars hadn't spent money then, he could have overspent even worse like most teams did this last off-season.

No, most posters are just giving their opinions without being a know-it-all douchebag like yourself.

What? So you think Dumars thinks fans want BG & CV gone more than Rip, Prince, Max ect?

No, you don't back up your post with stats, as I showed you in my last post when you said all those players were far better shooters than cv. The only reason the Bulls are more successful than the Pistons right now is because of a 1% chance of getting the 1st overall pick. The Pistons won't make the playoffs for the 2nd time after getting to the ecf's for most of last decade. don't compare that to the bulls. they'll never be that pathetic, trust me.

Once again, I don't care about the Pistons not making the playoffs, I want them to win the lottery this season. I understand you're happy that you're team is just now making the playoffs, but that doesn't do anything for us Pistons fans, unless we get back to the finals I could carealess about the playoffs. Neither team is going anywhere this season. I just want the older players gone on the det roster. My point was you spewing nonsense when you have no clue what you're talking about.

JB0B0
12-23-2010, 03:51 AM
As a Bulls fans, I absolutely love watching the Pistons lose.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 03:54 AM
Dumars prematurely traded Billups as he thought Stuckey showed enough potential when he started in the playoffs and led them to the ECF when Billups was injured. Billups for AI move was stricly for cap relief. Signing Rip to an extension was a mistake as we had Afflalo, although he had no idea Gordon was going to be a free agent. If Dumars hadn't spent money then, he could have overspent even worse like most teams did this last off-season.

No, most posters are just giving their opinions without being a know-it-all douchebag like yourself.
What? So you think Dumars thinks fans want BG & CV gone more than Rip, Prince, Max ect?

No, you don't back up your post with stats, as I showed you in my last post when you said all those players were far better shooters than cv. The only reason the Bulls are more successful than the Pistons right now is because of a 1% chance of getting the 1st overall pick. The Pistons won't make the playoffs for the 2nd time after getting to the ecf's for most of last decade. don't compare that to the bulls. they'll never be that pathetic, trust me.
Once again, I don't care about the Pistons not making the playoffs, I want them to win the lottery this season. I understand you're happy that you're team is just now making the playoffs, but that doesn't do anything for us Pistons fans, unless we get back to the finals I could carealess about the playoffs. Neither team is going anywhere this season. I just want the older players gone on the det roster. My point was you spewing nonsense when you have no clue what you're talking about.

As bolded shows, you are incapable of having an objective conversation without making it personal. Grow up, be little more mature and come back with a better attitude. Hell, take some notes from Gator. At least we had a nice discussion before you came along. Trust me, showing a little respect to others will take you a long way. Until then, have a nice day and good luck. I have better things to do than dealing with someone who can't have a decent discussion without needing to insult or bringing off topic points like the Bulls that have nothing to do with it.

And by the way you are complete hypocrite. You were JUST saying how Pistons aren't some team that depends on the lottery and yet you admit that you would rather they not make the playoffs and win the lottery. WHICH WAS WHAT I WAS SAYING THE WHOLE TIME. They need to get rid of their deadweight (CV, Rip, Prince) and REBUILD.

Anyways good day. If you ever want to revisit this conversation in a more mature manner just pm me. Til then, I have no desire to continue it.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 03:56 AM
As a Bulls fans, I absolutely love watching the Pistons lose.

True. But at the same time, you want to see the mistakes that need to be corrected, corrected. I wouldn't mind a rekindled rivalry. Unfortunately, they will likely be irrelevant for at least half a decade. And that's assuming they start playing their cards right as soon as those contracts expire.

EdGein812
12-23-2010, 04:02 AM
And Kozelkid...these are conversations we've had everyday for the last 2 years and they've been beaten to death. I honestly have no interest in arguing with you but I'll give you a quick run down. We live here and are submersed in what's going on here everyday. I'm a basketball fan but I won't pretend to know as much about what's going on in Chicago or Utah or Memphis because honestly I don't give 5% of the attention as I give to my hometown.

This is as much as you'll get from me...

Rip's not what he was but still has a lot of game. His style of play will age well. He's been a little ***** since Chauncey's been traded. He needs a change of scenery more than anything. Same goes for Prince. Both guys are savvy vets with a ton of playoff experience.

AI for Billups was awful. At the time of the trade just about everyone liked it. Billups was getting run around on by our main competition - Rondo, Mo Williams. Billups like most, had a terrible playoff series against Cleveland. Our offense would go stagnant and we needed a scorer. Getting a former MVP and a guy in Iverson who was still putting up nice numbers was intriguing. We clearly weren't good enough to go all the way so people were going to get moved. It turned out a terrible match. At the time made sense...but yeah, that one hurt. Not losing Billups so much as having no one to show for it.

Rip over the years has been one of the most effecient players in the league.

Villanueva has had a much better year this year compared to last. When we signed him he was coming off of a 16 and 7 season. For a 25 year old big, 26 now, for the money we got him, looks great compared to what bigs have been going for lately. He's not a starter though - more of a 6th man, but a good signing nonetheless.

What we do need is - This team to be sold. After the team gets sold we can move Rip and Tay who by all accounts have drawn a lot of interest around the league. JJ to get healthy. Daye and Monroe to get big minutes. A good draft pick this offseason. Either by the Rip, Tay trade or draft we need a true PG and a PF / C to go with Monroe since Wallace is on his way out the door. A new coach.

All sports go like this. We had a strong run for 7-8 years. Your players get older, team declines, teams around you improve, team starts overhaul to go at it again in a few years. That's how sports works. How the **** have you not learned that? Things will start to look better next year - I guar-on-tee.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 04:03 AM
Unfortunately that's not how PER works and that's why you can't just use a single stat to judge players. Stats come with CONTEXT. Until you understand that, you will be unable to properly judge players.
Again Korver came to the Bulls for one role, shoot 3's. He's done that VERY well. And has a high ts% because of that.
What's Villanueva's role? What exactly does he bring that's positive? He's inefficient, he can't defend, he can't rebound. WHAT THE HELL IS HIS ROLE?!

Oh and btw one of PERs biggest flaws is that it puts too much weight on fga. It's why chuckers might have a high PER even if they are hurting their team.



Jason Terry and Jamal Crawford are perimeter players and as such have much less effect on team defense. A team defense is built inside, out. You can have a great team defense with a poor perimter defender here and there. Boston did it with Allen, Lakers do it with Fisher, San Antonio with Parker, etc. However you can't have a great defense if your big men are awful defenders. Such is CV. And my belief is that Dumars thought he could turn CV into Sheed.
Also Terry anad Crawford are both efficient scorers for their positions. Both have had ts%'s over .53 which is the average ts% for perimeter players. For big men, the average is .55. Villanueva has never been at .55 or over IN HIS CAREER. EVER.



Yup.
My only mistake was Lewis who heavily regressed from a ts% of .57 last year to .52 this year. Every other player on that list has a much higher ts% than Villanueva. Fact. And so did last season's Lewis and before that. If you actually want to talk about statistics, don't bring me amateur stats like fg% when discussing efficiency. I expect ts% or efg%. Or 3pt% if we are talking about 3pt shooting.

Again, just answer this question and I'll be on my way. What does Villanueva bring that's positive to the team. What is the role that he's good at?


So Rashard Lewis was a great defender for the Magic? In reality if a poor defender is shadowed by a good help defender they can get away with it. CV comes off the bench to provide scoring. Carlos Boozer is terribie at defense but Noah is a good help side defender so that signing made sense. D. Rose is a terrible defender but has good defenders around him. Get it?


I was just trying to make it easier for you with those stats as you seem really confused.

TS% R. Lewis - 52%, Frye - 55%, A. Bargn 55%, CV - 54%

Much better shooters, huh? try again.

more shooting 4's Al Harrington - 53%, Jamison 49%

CV is great at scoring & spreading the floor off the bench.

he said MUCH better shooters lmao.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 04:16 AM
And Kozelkid...these are conversations we've had everyday for the last 2 years and they've been beaten to death. I honestly have no interest in arguing with you but I'll give you a quick run down. We live here and are submersed in what's going on here everyday. I'm a basketball fan but I won't pretend to know as much about what's going on in Chicago or Utah or Memphis because honestly I don't give 5% of the attention as I give to my hometown.

This is as much as you'll get from me...

Rip's not what he was but still has a lot of game. His style of play will age well. He's been a little ***** since Chauncey's been traded. He needs a change of scenery more than anything. Same goes for Prince. Both guys are savvy vets with a ton of playoff experience.

AI for Billups was awful. At the time of the trade just about everyone liked it. Billups was getting run around on by our main competition - Rondo, Mo Williams. Billups like most, had a terrible playoff series against Cleveland. Our offense would go stagnant and we needed a scorer. Getting a former MVP and a guy in Iverson who was still putting up nice numbers was intriguing. We clearly weren't good enough to go all the way so people were going to get moved. It turned out a terrible match. At the time made sense...but yeah, that one hurt. Not losing Billups so much as having no one to show for it.

Rip over the years has been one of the most effecient players in the league.

Villanueva has had a much better year this year compared to last. When we signed him he was coming off of a 16 and 7 season. For a 25 year old big, 26 now, for the money we got him, looks great compared to what bigs have been going for lately. He's not a starter though - more of a 6th man, but a good signing nonetheless.

What we do need is - This team to be sold. After the team gets sold we can move Rip and Tay who by all accounts have drawn a lot of interest around the league. JJ to get healthy. Daye and Monroe to get big minutes. A good draft pick this offseason. Either by the Rip, Tay trade or draft we need a true PG and a PF / C to go with Monroe since Wallace is on his way out the door. A new coach.

All sports go like this. We had a strong run for 7-8 years. Your players get older, team declines, teams around you improve, team starts overhaul to go at it again in a few years. That's how sports works. How the **** have you not learned that? Things will start to look better next year - I guar-on-tee.

Fair enough. I just don't think you'll getting rid of Rip as easy as you think. And I guess we agree to disagree with CV. Although CV has been MUCH better than last season
As for the overhaul, my point is simply that Detroit could have gotten through that rebuilding process quicker by not making a few of those moves that they did. I still think they ****ed up the 09 free agency badly. Even with paying Gordon who I actually like a lot. He just made little sense for a team already filled with too many sgs.

Although I'm very happy that you were able to say this in a very civil manner. I look forward to any other bball conversations we may have in the near future.

EdGein812
12-23-2010, 04:16 AM
You guys in Chicago have a sweet *** team though, I'm not gonna lie. Love the Bulls. Always did. Would like for a little competition between us though. Hopefully not too far off.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 04:16 AM
As bolded shows, you are incapable of having an objective conversation without making it personal. Grow up, be little more mature and come back with a better attitude. Hell, take some notes from Gator. At least we had a nice discussion before you came along. Trust me, showing a little respect to others will take you a long way. Until then, have a nice day and good luck. I have better things to do than dealing with someone who can't have a decent discussion without needing to insult or bringing off topic points like the Bulls that have nothing to do with it.

And by the way you are complete hypocrite. You were JUST saying how Pistons aren't some team that depends on the lottery and yet you admit that you would rather they not make the playoffs and win the lottery. WHICH WAS WHAT I WAS SAYING THE WHOLE TIME. They need to get rid of their deadweight (CV, Rip, Prince) and REBUILD.

Anyways good day. If you ever want to revisit this conversation in a more mature manner just pm me. Til then, I have no desire to continue it.

I tried explaing to you that calling players garbage doesn't make for a constructive conversation. You don't seem to be able to comprehend that. You gave your opinion that Rip beyond a terrible basketball player, when that's far from the case. You said CV along with Rip is the hardest contract to move, with is far from the case, yet you continoualy debate it like a fool, making up facts like Frye, Lewis, Bargs, are MUCH better shooters than CV, when the stats show you're wrong. You realize you have no idea what you're talking about so I understand you wanting to leave, that's fine with me.

Wanting a team to get a top 3 draft pick for the first time in a while is different than getting lottery picks for a decade like the Bulls.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 04:36 AM
So Rashard Lewis was a great defender for the Magic? In reality if a poor defender is shadowed by a good help defender they can get away with it. CV comes off the bench to provide scoring. Carlos Boozer is terribie at defense but Noah is a good help side defender so that signing made sense. D. Rose is a terrible defender but has good defenders around him. Get it?


I was just trying to make it easier for you with those stats as you seem really confused.

TS% R. Lewis - 52%, Frye - 55%, A. Bargn 55%, CV - 54%

Much better shooters, huh? try again.

more shooting 4's Al Harrington - 53%, Jamison 49%

CV is great at scoring & spreading the floor off the bench.

he said MUCH better shooters lmao.

Actually Frye is 56%. Convenient that you rounded down though.
And again, as I mentioned in my original post when you listed all those players, I think they are ALL overpaid. So good try.
I don't want any of them because not only they don't play defense, most of them don't even rebound. And expecting to have a superstar like Howard to make up for it is once again, poor foresight. Boozer might be a poor defender but at least he is a terrific rebounder. The guys you listed (except for Jamison in his prime) are all barely efficient for their position and are all poor defenders AND rebounders.
And btw this is pretty much a career high for CV in ts%. His career ts% is .524 which IS AWFUL. So if you expect his career high be the norm, good luck.

So yes, all the guys I listed are much better shooters cause their career ts% are much better.

tangent12
12-23-2010, 04:38 AM
Very good question, the current Pistons roster is severely damaging "Detroit Basketball" image and reputation. The Pistons are just an embarrassment nowadays.

kozelkid
12-23-2010, 04:39 AM
You guys in Chicago have a sweet *** team though, I'm not gonna lie. Love the Bulls. Always did. Would like for a little competition between us though. Hopefully not too far off.

Very true. I liked the old days. I could at least respect the grit and hard work from the Pistons.

Azekuis, like I said, take some notes from Edgein or Gator. It really isn't too hard to be respectful.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 12:53 PM
Actually Frye is 56%. Convenient that you rounded down though.
And again, as I mentioned in my original post when you listed all those players, I think they are ALL overpaid. So good try.
I don't want any of them because not only they don't play defense, most of them don't even rebound. And expecting to have a superstar like Howard to make up for it is once again, poor foresight. Boozer might be a poor defender but at least he is a terrific rebounder. The guys you listed (except for Jamison in his prime) are all barely efficient for their position and are all poor defenders AND rebounders.
And btw this is pretty much a career high for CV in ts%. His career ts% is .524 which IS AWFUL. So if you expect his career high be the norm, good luck.

So yes, all the guys I listed are much better shooters cause their career ts% are much better.

1% doesn't make a diff here, you said all those guys were MUCH better shooters, which clearly shows you have no idea what you're talking about. So try again.

Channing Frye's career ts% is much better than CV's?. Check again. Oh okay, so we're talking about career ts%, then Rip is the best shooter out of everyone we're talking about, right? Once again you're contradicting yourself to try to win an argument in which you have no clue about.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 01:15 PM
Very true. I liked the old days. I could at least respect the grit and hard work from the Pistons.

Azekuis, like I said, take some notes from Edgein or Gator. It really isn't too hard to be respectful.

I only give the amount of respect someone deserves, and in your case you deserve none with your terrible, child-like observations of a team you clearly havn't watched more than twice this season. You're pathetic attempt to be more knowledgeable than a team's fanbase & GM by throwing out advanced stats that you obviously can't even read nor understand as i've shown in my previous post. You're the reason Bulls fans have a bad name on PSD, you're a know-it-all, condescending, contradicting douchebag who's literally making up false information to win an argument about a team you know nothing about. When I proved this you keep changing the subject and telling me to be more respectful because you're treading water and can't admit you're wrong.

aZekuiS
12-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Very good question, the current Pistons roster is severely damaging "Detroit Basketball" image and reputation. The Pistons are just an embarrassment nowadays.

If the Bulls's image & reputation survived the past decade, i'm sure the Pistons' can for a few seasons.

TylerSL
12-23-2010, 11:47 PM
if the bulls's image & reputation survived the past decade, i'm sure the pistons' can for a few seasons.

lol

fadedmario
12-23-2010, 11:58 PM
If the Bulls's image & reputation survived the past decade, i'm sure the Pistons' can for a few seasons.

:clap:

jeter 2
12-24-2010, 12:29 AM
Prince to the Clippers makes a lot of sense. They need a vet who plays and knows how to win.