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ds637
12-14-2010, 03:30 AM
Roy Halladay
Cliff Lee
Roy Oswalt
Cole Hamels
Blanton/Moyer/Whoever

Last 5 years easily, but of all time? What do self-proclaimed smartest minds think?

1903
12-14-2010, 03:34 AM
I would say the 1997 Braves rotation is better than the projected 2011 Philles rotation:

Maddux
Smoltz
Glavine
Neagle
Various 5th starters

d79cheese
12-14-2010, 03:36 AM
cliff lee may set the PSD "threads in an hour" record.

ugafan
12-14-2010, 03:42 AM
On paper it very well could be.

papipapsmanny
12-14-2010, 03:43 AM
Braves back in the day and I dont even think its close

xdoubleZx
12-14-2010, 03:45 AM
I will not deny, this rotation of Halladay; Lee, Oswalt and hamels is absolutly amazing. Right there with that rotation of Maddux, Smolts and glavine but one better but lets not forget the redsox with Lester, Buchholz, Beckett and lackey

1903
12-14-2010, 03:47 AM
I will not deny, this rotation of Halladay; Lee, Oswalt and hamels is absolutly amazing. Right there with that rotation of Maddux, Smolts and glavine but one better but lets not forget the redsox with Lester, Buchholz, Beckett and lackey

That rotation is not in the conversation.

nr19
12-14-2010, 03:49 AM
I will not deny, this rotation of Halladay; Lee, Oswalt and hamels is absolutly amazing. Right there with that rotation of Maddux, Smolts and glavine but one better but lets not forget the redsox with Lester, Buchholz, Beckett and lackey

:facepalm:

My God you have to be kidding me even mentioning that Sox staff with those other two. Both Lackey and Beckett had ERA's over 4.40... come on.

NYSucksGoPhils
12-14-2010, 03:52 AM
Absolutely

SDDodger
12-14-2010, 04:01 AM
The Braves had 3 HOFers in their rotation, right now the phillies are sitting at 1 possible (halladay) and 2 long shots in Lee and Oswalt. The Braves hands down.

No Fun League
12-14-2010, 04:02 AM
Only time will tell

ds637
12-14-2010, 04:10 AM
The Braves rotation was unbelievable, wish I would have included that as an option in the poll. But is a yes or no poll so no is for the Braves or other if you can think of one.
Oswalt, Halladay, and Lee are guys if you throw on different teams their win/loss looks a lot better.
But time will tell.
Now that I really think about it Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux is the best 3-some easily. We will just have to see how the rest of the rotation pans out because Oswalt, Halladay, Lee isn't too far off.

Karlos49
12-14-2010, 04:17 AM
Greg Maddux (18-9, 2.22), Tom Glavine (20-6, 2.47), Denny Neagle (16-11, 3.55), Kevin Millwood (17-8, 4.08), John Smoltz (17-3, 2.90)

1998

Melo15
12-14-2010, 04:18 AM
Only time will tell

Exactly. Can we wait until these guys all pitch in the same rotation first? Obviously it is one of the most talented rotations in recent memory but it's way too early to call it the best rotation of all time.

CAIN=FUTURE
12-14-2010, 04:24 AM
90's Braves. 7 years in the future Lincecum-Bumgarner-Cain-Sanchez will have you guys saying Cliff who.

Tragedy
12-14-2010, 04:27 AM
People that voted yes couldn't have been serious.

More-Than-Most
12-14-2010, 04:31 AM
its tough to compare... is this era more offensively tough then the early to mid 90s? Also park factors are smaller... it would be better to give them a year first but the way oswalt/hamels/Halladay/Lee pitched last year it could very well be... Note Hamels and Halladay were top 5 in lowest run support so they didn't get a ton of help. You really cant say 1 way or another but this has the potential to be something special.

Iamyourfather
12-14-2010, 04:32 AM
Greg Maddux (18-9, 2.22), Tom Glavine (20-6, 2.47), Denny Neagle (16-11, 3.55), Kevin Millwood (17-8, 4.08), John Smoltz (17-3, 2.90)


I wouldn't even justify using the 98 Braves Rotations. I'd rather use the 97 rotation instead.

Greg Maddux (19-4, 2.20), John Smoltz (15-12, 3.02), Tom Glavine (14-7, 2.96), Denny Neagle (20-5, 2.97)

Those are some INSANE numbers!!!!

More-Than-Most
12-14-2010, 04:34 AM
People that voted yes couldn't have been serious.

Look at how Oswalt/Hamels and halladay pitched last year... factor that in with how good Lee is and it is very possible. It cant be said one way or another... Lee/Halladay are 2 of the top 5 best pitchers in baseball and muster that in with oswalt and Hamels and again it could be special.

thedfactor
12-14-2010, 04:36 AM
On paper it looks sexy, but doesn't matter until they perform on the field this upcoming season.

papipapsmanny
12-14-2010, 04:38 AM
90's Braves. 7 years in the future Lincecum-Bumgarner-Cain-Sanchez will have you guys saying Cliff who.

shut up

More-Than-Most
12-14-2010, 04:39 AM
shut up

:laugh::laugh:

Jeffy25
12-14-2010, 05:41 AM
The Braves had 3 HOFers in their rotation, right now the phillies are sitting at 1 possible (halladay) and 2 long shots in Lee and Oswalt. The Braves hands down.

I'm going with this, but not based on this logic.

A hall of famer has to be great for more than just 5 years unless you are Sandy Koufax.

To be a member of the greatest rotation, that might only take five years, so it stands to reason that the Phillies could have that.

I will take the Braves from 95-98 and compare that to the Phillies starters and their last 4 seasons

Halladay is a consistent 6 WAR pitcher. That is ace good.
So let's match him with Maddux

Maddux was a consistent 7-8 WAR pitcher....that is hard to beat

Maddux > Halladay

For the two spot

You have Cliff Lee vs Tom Glavine

Glavine was a 5 WAR pitcher from 95-98 (4 seasons) and had a few seasons of greatness, 7.1 and a lot of seasons in the 2-3 range.

Cliff Lee is a 4 WAR pitcher with one season where he topped 7.

Glavine takes Lee if we are comparing the late 90's.

in the three spot we have John Smoltz vs Roy Oswalt

Both are mid 4 WAR pitchers.

I give them a wash, the differences are too minor to separate them.

Denny Neagle vs Cole Hamels for the 4th spot

I am giving this spot to Hamels

Neagle wasn't consistent with the Braves, he was better in Pittsburgh before going to the Braves.

Hamels has had more productive seasons in Philly with his 4 WAR seasons, even with a down 09.

in the 5 spot

I am giving the spot to Kevin Milwood vs Joe Blanton

Millwood only had one great season with the Braves...where he posted in the upper 5's. Otherwise he was pedestrian. This is also coupled with the fact that the Braves only used a four man rotation sometimes.
Blanton has posted even worse numbers then Millwood in the other seasons, and he has one season where he posted above a 2, with like a 2.7 or something.

Millwood takes him for being able to at least post a great season.


Maddux > Halladay
Glavine > Lee
Smoltz = Oswalt
Neagle < Hamels
Millwood > Blanton


Brave actually are better easily...and this is just the first example to come to mind of a better rotation...if I took the time, I could probably find a better three or four going back further. Best rotation in the last five years, yes, most likely. Ever? No.

Jeffy25
12-14-2010, 05:45 AM
its tough to compare... is this era more offensively tough then the early to mid 90s? Also park factors are smaller... it would be better to give them a year first but the way oswalt/hamels/Halladay/Lee pitched last year it could very well be... Note Hamels and Halladay were top 5 in lowest run support so they didn't get a ton of help. You really cant say 1 way or another but this has the potential to be something special.

The late 90's was a far more offensive time in baseball than today.

Easily. Maddux and Smoltz and Glavine etc posted one of the best team rotation seasons the year Sosa and McGwire broke the home run record....

And that is a lazy example, the late 90's were just much more offensive then today.

Jeffy25
12-14-2010, 06:09 AM
Take a closer look.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-rotation-ever/

I love Fangraphs, I really do, and I appreciate the link...good read.

But I can't stand the way they do WAR for pitchers...they don't account for runs allowed for example...That is the job of a pitcher, don't allow runs! Until they fix their WAR system, I have a hard time supporting their arguments for WAR for pitchers.

The second point, is that the WAR for the last three years of these four pitchers, not pitching together is a different argument then the WAR for the four Braves pitching together in the same rotation. Lee has had how many different defenses behind him in the last three years for example?

It's hard to compare rotations from different eras, but the Braves still win this argument for me, at least until they all pitch together and top what the Braves did together.



yea the sox rotation is 4-6 range

Either way the phils rotation hasn't even played a season yet and somehow they are better than the 97 Braves in some peoples's minds

Just saw your post, so I added it to my comment.

Thank you

todu82
12-14-2010, 11:03 AM
It's a great rotation but those Braves' pitching staffs in the late 90's where even better.

F*(&"Next Year"
12-14-2010, 12:24 PM
1971 Baltimore Orioles
Four20 game winners? 3 sub-3.00 ERA? I understand the time period is a factor but day-um!
Mike Cueller (20-9, 3.08), Pat Dobson (20-8, 2.90), Jim Palmer (20-9, 2.68), Dave McNally (21-5, 2.68)

or
1972 A's: Ken Holtzman (19-11, 2.51), Catfish Hunter (21-7, 2.04), Blue Moon Odom (15-6, 2.50), Vida Blue (6-10, 2.80), Dave Hamilton (6-6, 2.93)
Five sub-3.00 ERA pitchers.

Bravo95
12-14-2010, 12:33 PM
No.

metsbulls1025
12-14-2010, 12:36 PM
Can we let them play first.

TheRuckus
12-14-2010, 01:39 PM
1971 Baltimore Orioles
Four20 game winners? 3 sub-3.00 ERA? I understand the time period is a factor but day-um!
Mike Cueller (20-9, 3.08), Pat Dobson (20-8, 2.90), Jim Palmer (20-9, 2.68), Dave McNally (21-5, 2.68)

or
1972 A's: Ken Holtzman (19-11, 2.51), Catfish Hunter (21-7, 2.04), Blue Moon Odom (15-6, 2.50), Vida Blue (6-10, 2.80), Dave Hamilton (6-6, 2.93)
Five sub-3.00 ERA pitchers.

The early 70's was pretty much the modern deadball era.

The Braves in the late '90s nearly duplicating those numbers is and was considerably more impressive. They have to be considered the best ever right now.

Nymfan87
12-14-2010, 02:18 PM
The 1985 and 1986 Mets rotations were pretty damn impressive :shrug:

giants73756
12-14-2010, 03:40 PM
Look at how Oswalt/Hamels and halladay pitched last year... factor that in with how good Lee is and it is very possible. It cant be said one way or another... Lee/Halladay are 2 of the top 5 best pitchers in baseball and muster that in with oswalt and Hamels and again it could be special.

Anybody who expects Oswalt to repeat what he did last year is fooling themselves. It will also be hard for Halladay and Colbert to produce the same type of seasons. Lee should improve, but overall these guys shouldn't have the same performance as last year.

bringinwood
12-14-2010, 04:11 PM
90's Braves. 7 years in the future Lincecum-Bumgarner-Cain-Sanchez will have you guys saying Cliff who.

Cain is a below .500 pitcher for his career and hasn't won more than 14 games in his career...

Sanchez might be the first player to kill someone in the stands...

Bumgarner might be the most overhyped pitcher to come out since Mark Prior...


Ok, you got Lincecum...

giants73756
12-14-2010, 05:09 PM
Cain is a below .500 pitcher for his career and hasn't won more than 14 games in his career...

Sanchez might be the first player to kill someone in the stands...

Bumgarner might be the most overhyped pitcher to come out since Mark Prior...


Ok, you got Lincecum...

This is one of the dumbest posts ever. Cain isn't good because his career record is sub .500?

Bumgarner wasn't even that hyped up outside the Giants organization. Whatever hype there was, Bumgarner pitched above it, and continued his dominance into the World Series. He's still only 21 years old. Oh, and ever heard of a guy named Strasburg?

Sanchez walks a lot of guys but had the best BAA in baseball.

bringinwood
12-14-2010, 06:21 PM
This is one of the dumbest posts ever. Cain isn't good because his career record is sub .500?

Bumgarner wasn't even that hyped up outside the Giants organization. Whatever hype there was, Bumgarner pitched above it, and continued his dominance into the World Series. He's still only 21 years old. Oh, and ever heard of a guy named Strasburg?

Sanchez walks a lot of guys but had the best BAA in baseball.


Like I said, Sanchez might kill someone one day when he misses the backstop completely...

The difference between Strasburg and Bumgarner is that Strasburg is worth the immense hype... Yes, Bumgarner is completely overhyped and will never be more than a poor mans Cole Hamels...

Cain isn't the all world, dominating, consistently great pitcher Giants fans have tagged him to be... He isn't a top 10 pitcher in baseball... Not close...

The Phillies have 2 of the best pitchers in baseball and two more that can easily be classified as top 10-15 in baseball...

giants73756
12-14-2010, 08:07 PM
I wasn't comparing Bumgarner's pitching ability to Strasburg's. I only mentioned Strasburg because you said Bumgarner was the most hyped pitcher since Prior, which obviously isn't true. Bumgarner may or may not be better than Hamels right now, but in a couple years he will be.

Only homers like you think Cain isn't better than Oswalt and Hamels. Cain is a top 15-20 pitcher in baseball. Don't say Hamels and Oswalt are top 15 without looking at pitchers who are better than them. They are probably top 30-40.

Even Lee is a borderline top 10 pitcher. Felix, J Johnson, Halladay, Lincecum, Buchholz, Wainwright are all better than him. Then there are a bunch of guys like Ubaldo, Latos, Kershaw, Cahill, Santana, and even more who have an argument that they are better than him.

d79cheese
12-14-2010, 08:55 PM
Cain is a below .500 pitcher for his career and hasn't won more than 14 games in his career...

Sanchez might be the first player to kill someone in the stands...

Bumgarner might be the most overhyped pitcher to come out since Mark Prior...


Ok, you got Lincecum...

lol, you are seriously going to base your argument on this :facepalm:

Annalise
12-15-2010, 02:47 PM
"On an individual basis," Mazzone said, "Halladay is as good as Maddux. He's even got that signature Maddux pitch -- that ball he can start out of the zone on a left-handed hitter and bring it back into the zone for a called strike three."

Jeffy25
12-15-2010, 08:07 PM
"On an individual basis," Mazzone said, "Halladay is as good as Maddux. He's even got that signature Maddux pitch -- that ball he can start out of the zone on a left-handed hitter and bring it back into the zone for a called strike three."

Yeah Mazzone, it's called a two seamer

Gigantes4Life
12-15-2010, 08:37 PM
Well it depends. Will the Phillies pitchers get the ridiculous strikezones that Maddux and Glavine received?

bagwell368
12-15-2010, 10:48 PM
How about most over hyped ?

The Braves? Count up the rings....

ds637
12-16-2010, 03:31 AM
Can we let them play first.

What if one suffers a season ending cough sneeze injury?

ds637
12-16-2010, 03:33 AM
90's Braves. 7 years in the future Lincecum-Bumgarner-Cain-Sanchez will have you guys saying Cliff who.

Have fun trying to pay them all.

Bravo95
12-16-2010, 01:47 PM
How about most over hyped ?

The Braves? Count up the rings....
Not the starters' fault. Smoltz was a great playoff pitcher, as was Glavine. But the bullpens were average and blew a lot of games in the postseason. '90s Braves weren't blessed with a Mariano Rivera who could slam the door in the late innings.

Jeffy25
12-16-2010, 03:57 PM
Well it depends. Will the Phillies pitchers get the ridiculous strikezones that Maddux and Glavine received?

Hall of Famer - Umpires

jmcelligott92
12-20-2010, 12:44 PM
theyre barely better than the white sox red sox stat wise
so no
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/12/16/hot.stove.roundup/index.html

Jeffy25
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
theyre barely better than the white sox red sox stat wise
so no
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/12/16/hot.stove.roundup/index.html


It's amazing, considering how many words have gone into analyzing Cliff Lee signing with the Philadelphia Phillies, that there are two points to make that may not have been already made.
One is this: Remember that time Felix Hernandez of the Seattle Mariners won the Cy Young award and it was hailed as a great breakthrough for baseball rationalism even though it kind of wasn't? Lee's deal is a bit like that except that it actually is.
For all Lee's virtues, it isn't necessarily obvious that he's a great pitcher. Over the last two years his record is 26-22, with a good-not-brilliant 3.20 ERA. His postseason legend aside, he's made four World Series starts with a 4.55 ERA. His contribution to the Texas Rangers' playoff run was a 4-6 record and a 3.98 ERA. Even by an old school sabermetric measure like adjusted ERA he's less than the bee's knees, with a 131 mark over the last two years.
It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where baseball pundits collectively decided that Lee's reputation was a lot of sabermetric nonsense. This is speculation, but I'd credit some of the esteem in which the man is held to a general recognition that won-loss records and even ERA and its derivatives are not the best measures of a pitcher's worth -- and that esteem is backed not just by an award, but by the $120 million Lee just signed for.
The second point is this: As good as the Phillies' rotation is, it isn't all that much better than, say, the Chicago White Sox'. (Here is where Sox general manager Ken Williams decides that there are two sane men in this insane world.) This is what the members of each team's rotation have averaged over the past three years, rWAR measuring their value in wins above a Kevin Correia, replacement-level type:
Team IP ERA rWAR
Phillies 213 3.52 4.2
White Sox 188 3.88 3.6
The ERAs are a bit closer in value than they look, since the Chicago pitchers have largely been working in a good home run park in the DH league. Twenty-five innings is a considerable difference, but the sort of thing that might be wiped out with a fluke injury here or there. And this assumes that the Phillies will keep reliable No. 5 starter Joe Blanton rather than trading him to save money and swapping in a dodgier alternative.
I would of course take Philadelphia's rotation over Chicago's, but they'll need things to go well to even have the best rotation in baseball next year, let alone the best ever. In addition to the White Sox, the San Francisco Giants, Boston Red Sox and Los Angeles Dodgers, among other teams, also have very good pitchers. I'm so old I remember when the 2008 Detroit Tigers were going to score 1,000 runs. (They ended up scoring 821.)


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/12/16/hot.stove.roundup/index.html#ixzz18fhUBKFe

Wow, so basically, this guy is a moron that hates saber metrics.


4 top 30 pitchers in baseball over the last 3 years should be enough to settle this debate. Lee is quite possibly the best pitcher in baseball not named Halladay and Lincecum.....Hamels is a top 15 pitcher, and Oswalt is a top 30....no other rotation can say that.

And it's not based on ERA's, in case Marchman doesn't understand that.

AjBurnett
12-24-2010, 01:32 AM
I would say the 1997/1998 Braves. Probably the best ever.

Matt-the-great
12-25-2010, 02:46 AM
90's Braves. 7 years in the future Lincecum-Bumgarner-Cain-Sanchez will have you guys saying Cliff who.

when Lincecum's fastball is 82 mph, and Sanchez has left via free agency, and Cain is like 33?

CAIN=FUTURE
12-31-2010, 01:00 PM
when Lincecum's fastball is 82 mph, and Sanchez has left via free agency, and Cain is like 33?

Even if all that happens the Giants will have marked themselves as one of the two greatest pitching teams ever, and Bumgarner will only be 28 lol. Get over it, Lincecum mechanics are flawless. Barring a back injury Timmy will be throwing heat into his mid 30's. Sanchez will probably get traded after this season.

CAIN=FUTURE
12-31-2010, 01:02 PM
Wow, so basically, this guy is a moron that hates saber metrics.


4 top 30 pitchers in baseball over the last 3 years should be enough to settle this debate. Lee is quite possibly the best pitcher in baseball not named Halladay and Lincecum.....Hamels is a top 15 pitcher, and Oswalt is a top 30....no other rotation can say that.

And it's not based on ERA's, in case Marchman doesn't understand that.

Hahahahahaha Lee is not close to Felix Hernandez, let alone Lincecum, or Halladay. He's top 15, for sure. Hamels is top 20, as is Matt Cain. I don't see Oswalt being one of 30 best pitchers this season. Bumgarner WILL have a better season than him, and if Sanchez puts together another season like last he will too.

Jeffy25
01-02-2011, 01:36 PM
Hahahahahaha Lee is not close to Felix Hernandez, let alone Lincecum, or Halladay. He's top 15, for sure. Hamels is top 20, as is Matt Cain. I don't see Oswalt being one of 30 best pitchers this season. Bumgarner WILL have a better season than him, and if Sanchez puts together another season like last he will too.

This has been answered in the best rotation thread in the MLB section.

I.E. let's not start another debate where I pull up stats to prove how wrong you are and you just argue about how potential exists, even though I never argued it didn't.

aces01
01-04-2011, 11:48 AM
when Lincecum's fastball is 82 mph, and Sanchez has left via free agency, and Cain is like 33?
:clap: This made me laugh. I think the Giants rotation is very good, but 7 years from now? Really good chance Timmy isn't even throwing in the 90s anymore, and I just have to see more of Bumgarner. He looked great this year, but anything can happen so we'll just have to wait and see.

bartoron
01-04-2011, 01:19 PM
On paper it's very close to the Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz trio of the '90s, but only time will tell.

Madtown22
03-04-2011, 12:52 AM
nope!

Pinstripe pride
03-04-2011, 09:34 AM
I will not deny, this rotation of Halladay; Lee, Oswalt and hamels is absolutly amazing. Right there with that rotation of Maddux, Smolts and glavine but one better but lets not forget the redsox with Lester, Buchholz, Beckett and lackey

your kidding right?

Pinstripe pride
03-04-2011, 09:44 AM
hard to argue with the braves of the 90's

yankeefan54
03-04-2011, 09:11 PM
nah braves for now 3 hall of famers. But hell the phillies is still nasty.

Metsfan98
03-16-2011, 09:04 AM
Roy Haliday
Cliff Lee
Roy Oswalt
Cole Hamels
And then whoever is closing.

yankeefan54
03-16-2011, 04:24 PM
Roy Haliday
Cliff Lee
Roy Oswalt
Cole Hamels
And then whoever is closing.

great on paper except thats all it is the braves were in 4 world series all top 3 starters won cy youngs. Phillies as a team are no where near as good as the braves were the phillies have basically no pen and a weak offense compared to what they had in the past. Can the win the world series yes will they probably not.