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View Full Version : Hollinger on why Rose isnt ALL that aka the "why doesnt Rose get to the line?" thread



Chronz
12-10-2010, 02:21 PM
I've heard a variety of explanations for Rose's relative lack of freebies. The "no respect from the refs" theory is the one most often heard in the upper reaches of Illinois, but it's also the most suspect. Several less-experienced players have had little trouble getting to the foul line at a more frequent clip. Rookie John Wall, for instance, is the one whose physical skills are most often compared to Rose's, and he's had no trouble getting to the line with far greater frequency.

No, the unfortunate fact is this: The same things that make Rose so watchable also conspire against him.

Those who disagree can someone explain why the league has a conspiracy to keep Rose down when Stern changed the rules to benefit a player of his talent.

mikemoneymk19
12-10-2010, 02:34 PM
and if you read or ever watch him play they state its because he has so much body control and strength that even when he gets hit he can stay on his feet and still glide around contact and finish. thus playin so smooth that refs dnt call fouls....get off rose n*ts

RulerSlick
12-10-2010, 02:35 PM
100% truth


No, the unfortunate fact is this: The same things that make Rose so watchable also conspire against him. He's so smooth, so graceful and so explosive that it's fairly easy for him to float past opponents and drop in a layup or to launch his unusually-effective 10-foot floater or to pull up for the J while an opponent watches helplessly from the other side of the screen. Alas, none of those maneuvers get him to the line, and the next time Rose willfully draws contact to force his way there will be a first.

I compare this to Vince carter in his athletic prime who had a habit of instead of taking all of the contact, he would use his body control and leaping ability to partially avoid contact (all of those crazy acrobatic layups from Carter and Rose are somewhat a result of "avoidining" defense/contact) which is obviously going to lessen your chances at FT's

Hawkeye15
12-10-2010, 02:38 PM
please keep this thread nice. Its a valid point, and not the biggest criticism. But if Rose wants to enter superstar level, he will indeed need to learn when to draw fouls, and when to glide right by his opponent.

mikemoneymk19
12-10-2010, 02:42 PM
he gets 26 a night with out fouls....he'll b fine

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 02:46 PM
First of all, this is ESPN Insider........ and when anyone else has posted it, its been taken down. Second it's John Hollinger, The Per guy and people who honestly like to pretend they know basketball use this guy to prove that they are right when no one else that has anything to do with the NBA uses this type of formula. It's funny though, Ric Bucher, his colleague said today if he were to start a franchise, with a PG he would take Rose.


Lee (NYC)


Right now, rank these 6 PGs based on who you would start a franchise with TODAY: Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, John Wall
Ric Bucher
(1:08 PM)


On the GMs, I'd say that's exactly the order in which they'd put them. For me, starting a franchise today is a tricky question. If I want to win right now, it's a toss-up as to who I'd take first DWill or DRose. If it's building for the future, I'm going Rose. CP3 would be in the convo if it weren't for knee that clearly isn't right and his injury history raises doubts. So moving forward, I'd go Rose, Russ, Rajon. The other two are really a half-generation ahead.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/35865

sox_fan_35_2000
12-10-2010, 02:48 PM
I don't know, for the good of his long term health, if the bulls want him crashing into centers and forwards to get to the line as opposed to just making the layup or shot. Though, I have nothing to really back that up with.

Rndy
12-10-2010, 02:49 PM
I think it shows how stupid this league can be. NBA doesn't want players complaining. But a guy who never ever complains and is as humble as Rose gets no calls. I really don't understand it at all. Watch this guy play and tell me he doesn't get hacked on every play. It has gotten a little better lately. It pretty much took a bloody nose in order for something to change a little bit.

Sadds The Gr8
12-10-2010, 02:51 PM
i'd bet my house that this threads gonna end up in a flame war.

as for the thread, I agree, but remember he's still mad young. He'll prolly learn how to consistently get to the FT line as he gets older. He still scores with ease anyways.

jtsunami
12-10-2010, 02:51 PM
Even Bulls fans will tell you he needs to get to the line more. Most of it falls on his shoulders. I am biased, however, when I say he doesn't get the tic-tac fouls that others do.

He needs to seek out the contact more instead of trying to finish. I see Kevin Martin and other players like him not even trying to make the shot. Instead they flail their arms and get the calls. It's one example, but it's something Rose needs to learn how to do.

He's one of the best finishers at the rim. The problem is he thinks he can convert every single one of them. It either ends up as a basket, missed shot, or pass. When it could be foul, foul, foul.

News24/7
12-10-2010, 02:52 PM
NBA Insider, thread=closed already.

2nd, It's John Hollinger, who gives a crap?

spartanbear
12-10-2010, 02:54 PM
please keep this thread nice. Its a valid point, and not the biggest criticism. But if Rose wants to enter superstar level, he will indeed need to learn when to draw fouls, and when to glide right by his opponent.

Yes. (As I often do) I agree with you & Hollinger however that doesn't mean I have to like the assessment. It's my belief that a foul is a foul is a foul. And if the NBA's officials can call fouls on individuals who defend kobe, wade, bronsbrons, dirk, etc. when they simply barrel towards the rim and then lose possession of the basketball without any molestation then you can definitely call a foul on someone that literally pushes rose while he's driving or nudges him while he's in the air to knock him off balance, right?

I understand that professional basketball has a serious eliminate of idk what you'd call it ("acting"?) in it now however right is right/fair is fair. I'd prefer the refs just make the calls. All the grace and beauty and flow that comes with Rose's game is what makes him effective. I'd prefer he not change that just to illicit a response from the refs. I mean ok so now rose goes AP28 to the rim and gets hammered and still no calls then what? I've seen how it could turn out and I'd prefer he not take the type of punishment that AI used to take. U get what I'm saying right?

finalverse
12-10-2010, 02:56 PM
I actually don't mind Rose only shooting 5 FT's a game (or whatever it currently is). Sure it would be nice if he drew more fouls because that would mean the other team gets in foul trouble which helps a lot but physically it takes a toll on a person and I don't want him getting hurt like that (obviously doesn't mean he would get hurt throwing his body around).

I do agree with the article when he says that Rose on the court is a beauty to watch. He really navigates through the crowd very easily and finishes with the best of them. As a fan it is more entertaining then him 'fake' throwing his body into the defender just to get the call. It's not graceful or pretty when a dude has to go the line every other shot.

I think the refs miss about 2 or 3 calls naturally for Rose, which I wish they would call but I don't want him to start playing out of control like other players do if that is the only option.

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 02:56 PM
NBA Insider, thread=closed already.

2nd, It's John Hollinger, who gives a crap?

x2

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 02:58 PM
please keep this thread nice. Its a valid point, and not the biggest criticism. But if Rose wants to enter superstar level, he will indeed need to learn when to draw fouls, and when to glide right by his opponent.

25 and 8 doesn't categorize a guy as a super star? besides it's hollinger and ESPN Insider

Chronz
12-10-2010, 02:59 PM
Even Bulls fans will tell you he needs to get to the line more.
LOL what do you mean "even Bulls fans", why would expect anything less?


I am biased, however, when I say he doesn't get the tic-tac fouls that others do.

Why would the league insist on keeping Rose down? Just take a wild guess because Im trying to understand the logic behind these conspiracies. Here I thought Chicago was a great market that Stern would favor, a star whos personable with the community.


First of all, this is ESPN Insider........ and when anyone else has posted it, its been taken down.
Its not the entire article but the fact that you want so badly for it to be taken down speaks volumes.


Second it's John Hollinger, The Per guy and people who honestly like to pretend they know basketball use this guy to prove that they are right when no one else that has anything to do with the NBA uses this type of formula.
FALSE



It's funny though, Ric Bucher,
Stopped reading at Bucher


he gets 26 a night with out fouls....he'll b fine
Hed be more than fine if he got to 28-30 due to the increase in FT/A, imagine how good hed be then.

Tony_Starks
12-10-2010, 03:00 PM
So his argument is because Rose doesn't get to the stripe he's not an elite pg? So since Rondo's jumper is broke he's not elite either right? Or since Nash is immune to defense he's not elite either? Shaq and Dwight can't make free throws they're not elite centers?

How easy is it to pick one flaw while overlooking all the great things a player is doing? Im not a rocket scientist but I think thats the definition of hating.

kozelkid
12-10-2010, 03:01 PM
It's definitely true. At the same time, comes the fact that Rose also never presses the issue like guys like Roy or Wade do, that is complain.
Either way, it's also a double-edged sword in the sense that if he were to play more reckless, look for contact more, there's a much higher chance that he can possibly have a shorter career as well.
And finally, while his ts% maybe not has good as other players, he is able to put his misses at an area where Bulls bigs are able to get offensive rebounds, ALA Allen Iverson.

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 03:02 PM
LOL what do you mean "even Bulls fans", why would expect anything less?


Why would the league insist on keeping Rose down? Just take a wild guess because Im trying to understand the logic behind these conspiracies. Here I thought Chicago was a great market that Stern would favor, a star whos personable with the community.


Its not the entire article but the fact that you want so badly for it to be taken down speaks volumes.


FALSE



Stopped reading at Bucher


Hed be more than fine if he got to 28-30 due to the increase in FT/A, imagine how good hed be then.

It's nat fair that it's up. When I or anyone else have posted articles from Insider its been taken down and yes it is the whole article. when you click on Insider nothing even comes up except the sign in page. second, show me who else uses hollinger formula. I have already had this argument with others and not one RESPECTABLE person uses his fomula, the only time they use it is to mock it.

John Walls Era
12-10-2010, 03:02 PM
I actually like how Rose doesn't just try to draw contact on every play. He tries to just make the shot (sure he complains when theres contact, but he doesn't blatantly dive or scream when theres slight contact).

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:03 PM
25 and 8 doesn't categorize a guy as a super star? besides it's hollinger and ESPN Insider

Ive edited the content to include only a few snippets so can you stop whining now?

Also the fact that you try to discredit a stats guy like Hollinger, then post your feeble 25-8 argument is comedic irony at its finest. I thank you for making my day

Hawkeye15
12-10-2010, 03:07 PM
Yes. (As I often do) I agree with you & Hollinger however that doesn't mean I have to like the assessment. It's my belief that a foul is a foul is a foul. And if the NBA's officials can call fouls on individuals who defend kobe, wade, bronsbrons, dirk, etc. when they simply barrel towards the rim and then lose possession of the basketball without any molestation then you can definitely call a foul on someone that literally pushes rose while he's driving or nudges him while he's in the air to knock him off balance, right?

I understand that professional basketball has a serious eliminate of idk what you'd call it ("acting"?) in it now however right is right/fair is fair. I'd prefer the refs just make the calls. All the grace and beauty and flow that comes with Rose's game is what makes him effective. I'd prefer he not change that just to illicit a response from the refs. I mean ok so now rose goes AP28 to the rim and gets hammered and still no calls then what? I've seen how it could turn out and I'd prefer he not take the type of punishment that AI used to take. U get what I'm saying right?

I get exactly what you are saying. My point is, like it or not, the game is called a certain way. Rose is going to need to adapt to that, and be either more vocal, or sell the foul a bit more. It will help both him, and his team. And once he starts getting a higher foul draw rate, he can back off the antics, because refs will have the tendency to give him calls naturally.

Just the way it is man. And its just another thing Rose could improve upon, on his way to superstardom.

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 03:08 PM
Ive edited the content to include only a few snippets so can you stop whining now?

Also the fact that you try to discredit a stats guy like Hollinger, then post your feeble 25-8 argument is comedic irony at its finest. I thank you for making my day

WTF am I suppose to say? Rose breaks down defenses pretty damn well? I'm not calculating all his stats to show why he is good or bad, Im going by his scoring and assists which is ummmm what 99.9 percent of the free world does. I agree stats aren't everything, but like i said, people who don't know basketball try and use hollinger to prove they are right. well I guess if thats the case, Hollinger in his PER has shannon Brown ahead of Derrick Rose. So I guess Brown is better then Rose. If you wanna keep going, we'll keep going.

Klivlend
12-10-2010, 03:08 PM
In before close!

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Yes. (As I often do) I agree with you & Hollinger however that doesn't mean I have to like the assessment. It's my belief that a foul is a foul is a foul.
There are various types of fouls and on 50-50 calls reputations play a hand and rightfully so.


And if the NBA's officials can call fouls on individuals who defend kobe, wade, bronsbrons, dirk, etc. when they simply barrel towards the rim and then lose possession of the basketball without any molestation then you can definitely call a foul on someone that literally pushes rose while he's driving or nudges him while he's in the air to knock him off balance, right?
Not if they believe Rose fell by his own doing and if they believe those stars were mugged. Refs review every call and noncall after the game, if they make errors the rep of a player grows. I saw it happen first hand with Eric Gordon here in LA, he just kept on attacking (Mark Jackson impression)WITH FORCE and the refs took notice. Now hes one of the most prolific slashers and gets the benefit of the doubt. Rose hasnt earned the rep because for the MOST PART he shies away from contact. Just because you fall doesnt mean you got fouled, and the refs have seen it this way.

As soon as synergy gives video footage again I plan on delving into the issue because I see all the same games you guys do, and I dont see a kid who gets robbed more than any other star. As much as EG gets to the line I still feel he should get there more but thats how the game gos, sometimes you get some you dont deserve sometimes you get makeup calls, in the end it all balances out and Rose doesnt get a disproportionate # of those calls. Certainly not when you factor his playing style vs true slashers.

pacofunk64
12-10-2010, 03:11 PM
Ah ********...Rose is a beast and whether or not he gets to the free throw line I still consider him to be a top 5 guy at the PG position.

justinnum1
12-10-2010, 03:13 PM
please keep this thread nice. Its a valid point, and not the biggest criticism. But if Rose wants to enter superstar level, he will indeed need to learn when to draw fouls, and when to glide right by his opponent.

This, it won;t be long before he gets calls

Tony_Starks
12-10-2010, 03:13 PM
I guess hating on Rose is the popular thing to do these days but the fact remains that you're favorite pg can't do a thing with him. Him and Westbrook are the future of the NBA believe it or not.

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:17 PM
It's nat fair that it's up. When I or anyone else have posted articles from Insider its been taken down and yes it is the whole article.
LOL you just keep owning yourself. Explain to me how you know its the ENTIRE article when you just admitted you dont have access to view the content itself.

And what do you care bro, Im not the one taking your stuff down and Ive been posting snips of Insider material since I first started posting. Im pretty sure they allow us to edit the content if not who cares.


second, show me who else uses hollinger formula.
Coaches and GM's alike, most have their own variations but they focus on linear weights. Read up on Basketball Prospectus 2010 and read the Foreward by Daryl Morey and he talks about the work the statistical community has done over the years and how its effected the inner workings of the NBA(Id post it here but imagine the outcry Id get from you then). Another one of Hollingers formulas, his draft models are very similar to several execs. Coaches like Stan Van Gundy look into Hollingers findings.


I have already had this argument with others and not one RESPECTABLE person uses his fomula, the only time they use it is to mock it.

LOL this means nothing, all this tells me is you dont have a clue about the revolution.

spartanbear
12-10-2010, 03:19 PM
There are various types of fouls and on 50-50 calls reputations play a hand and rightfully so.


Not if they believe Rose fell by his own doing and if they believe those stars were mugged. Refs review every call and noncall after the game, if they make errors the rep of a player grows. I saw it happen first hand with Eric Gordon here in LA, he just kept on attacking (Mark Jackson impression)WITH FORCE and the refs took notice. Now hes one of the most prolific slashers and gets the benefit of the doubt. Rose hasnt earned the rep because for the MOST PART he shies away from contact. Just because you fall doesnt mean you got fouled, and the refs have seen it this way.

As soon as synergy gives video footage again I plan on delving into the issue because I see all the same games you guys do, and I dont see a kid who gets robbed more than any other star. As much as EG gets to the line I still feel he should get there more but thats how the game gos, sometimes you get some you dont deserve sometimes you get makeup calls, in the end it all balances out and Rose doesnt get a disproportionate # of those calls. Certainly not when you factor his playing style vs true slashers.

Ok.

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:21 PM
WTF am I suppose to say? Rose breaks down defenses pretty damn well? I'm not calculating all his stats to show why he is good or bad, Im going by his scoring and assists which is ummmm what 99.9 percent of the free world does.
Thats not a good start


I agree stats aren't everything, but like i said, people who don't know basketball try and use hollinger to prove they are right.
No matter how many times you say it, it wont come true. I KNOW basketball and I use PER or atleast variations of it.


well I guess if thats the case, Hollinger in his PER has shannon Brown ahead of Derrick Rose. So I guess Brown is better then Rose. If you wanna keep going, we'll keep going.
Yes PLz keep going, its BLATANTLY obvious you have no clue of what PER is meant to measure.

D1JM
12-10-2010, 03:23 PM
rose is so composed when he goes to the basket and even though he gets hit two three times going to the hope (especially people reaching in) he still keeps his composure. It sucks that a guy that is not trying to get on the refs face, yell like a girl, flop like varejao or scream foul on his way to the basket in order to get a call.

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 03:27 PM
LOL you just keep owning yourself. Explain to me how you know its the ENTIRE article when you just admitted you dont have access to view the content itself.

And what do you care bro, Im not the one taking your stuff down and Ive been posting snips of Insider material since I first started posting. Im pretty sure they allow us to edit the content if not who cares.


Coaches and GM's alike, most have their own variations but they focus on linear weights. Read up on Basketball Prospectus 2010 and read the Foreward by Daryl Morey and he talks about the work the statistical community has done over the years and how its effected the inner workings of the NBA. Another one of Hollingers formulas, his draft models are very similar to several execs. Coaches like Stan Van Gundy look into Hollingers findings. hell hollinger has even said his stuff is to fill pages, i dont even think hollinger takes his stuff seriously.


LOL this means nothing, all this tells me is you dont have a clue about the revolution.

I never said once I dont have access to the page, all i said was when i clicked, it brought me right to the sign in page and ive tried it more then once. your just assuming. oh but the answer to that is yes i do have insider and the only reason I have that crappy service was because I have order ESPN the magazine and it gave me a free 3 month trial. second, coaches like stan van gundy use it? thats not saying van gundy uses it. thats like me saying im an agent and i represent people like lebron james, does that mean i represent lebron? NO! it means i represent people like him. van gundy or any other NBA coach doesn't use it. NO ONE IN THE NBA USES IT. they mock it on almost every sports radio station in the country and on NBA TV. oh and those draft forumlas, hollinger pretty much uses the GM's formulas and tweeked it into his own which any person with half a brain on psd could do. why do you think hollinger only started to use this about 3 years ago? but draft forumlas dont have anything to do with this. that point isnt valid

and chronz I would be careful who I say doesn't have a clue cause you have been getting you butt kicked on this site the last couple weeks. so if you follow hollinger like you say and believe him by using his articles then you believe brown is better then rose and ginobolli is better then Wade like hollinger thinks. hell how are you going to go off an article when you have no idea yourself why rose hasnt been going to the line. you dont watch every bulls game and so doesnt hollinger. he's even admitted it.

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:27 PM
rose is so composed when he goes to the basket and even though he gets hit two three times going to the hope (especially people reaching in) he still keeps his composure. It sucks that a guy that is not trying to get on the refs face, yell like a girl, flop like varejao or scream foul on his way to the basket in order to get a call.
What do you mean, are you trying to say Varejao gets alot of calls? Eric Gordon didnt have to start crying to get them. Again these excuses are typical from Chitown fans, is it really so hard to admit that maybe your franchise player has a weakness and he has no one to blame but himself. If not SOMEONE/ANYONE plz explain why the league would hold down one of its most marketable up and comers who happens to play in a big market.

effen5
12-10-2010, 03:28 PM
I think it shows how stupid this league can be. NBA doesn't want players complaining. But a guy who never ever complains and is as humble as Rose gets no calls. I really don't understand it at all. Watch this guy play and tell me he doesn't get hacked on every play. It has gotten a little better lately. It pretty much took a bloody nose in order for something to change a little bit.

Pretty much this. The NBA officiating is absolute garbage.

Chronz
12-10-2010, 03:33 PM
I never said once I dont have access to the page, all i said was when i clicked, it brought me right to the sign in page and ive tried it more then once. your just assuming. oh but the answer to that is yes i do have insider and the only reason I have that crappy service was because I have order ESPN the magazine and it gave me a free month trial.
So then if you have it, how do you not know that it wasnt the entire article?


second, coaches like stan van gundy use it? thats not saying van gundy uses it. thats like me saying im an agent and i represent people like lebron james, does that mean i represent lebron? NO! it means i represent people like him. van gundy or any other NBA coach doesn't use it.
HUH? This made no sense, Im only saying HIS OWN WORDS. Not his agents, not his mommas, not his bros, HIS OWN WORDS. He reads alot of Hollingers work.


oh and those draft forumlas, hollinger pretty uses the GM's formulas and tweeked it into his own which any person with half a brain on psd could do.
LOL not likely and your definitely not in that list


why do you think hollinger only started to use this about 3 years ago?

I dont see the connection your trying to make so explain, WHY is it so?


and chronz I would be careful who I say doesn't have a clue cause you have been getting you butt kicked on this site the last couple weeks.
LMFAO coming from you this means nothing.


so if you follow hollinger like you say and believe him by using his articles then you believe brown is better then rose and ginobolli is better then Wade like hollinger thinks.
Nothing you just said is true, if you knew anything about Hollinger or PER you would know this.


hell how are you going to go off an article when you have no idea yourself why rose hasnt been going to the line. you dont watch every bulls game and so doesnt hollinger. he's even admitted it.
Your arguments are getting less and less coherent, I KNOW exactly why hes not getting to the line. LOL so now your going to tell me how much of a player I watch, hopefully your argument works out better than when you tried to tell me how much of an article I posted.

Good luck

ChiSox219
12-10-2010, 03:34 PM
Rose might not get to the FT line as often as others but he is still a great player playing a winning basketball style.

And he's got a deep ball now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V-zqQ8Zio8

D1JM
12-10-2010, 03:34 PM
What do you mean, are you trying to say Varejao gets alot of calls? Eric Gordon didnt have to start crying to get them. Again these excuses are typical from Chitown fans, is it really so hard to admit that maybe your franchise player has a weakness and he has no one to blame but himself. If not SOMEONE/ANYONE plz explain why the league would hold down one of its most marketable up and comers who happens to play in a big market.

u obviously dont see the games then. When he is attacking the basket he gets hit constantly in the forearm. You want to see what you want to see. Against the cavs, a replayed showed how he got reached in by three different people going to the basket and no call, Y, I dont know.

D Roses Bulls
12-10-2010, 03:34 PM
and chronz if you watch as much basketball as you claim which i doubt, you'd know before even reading hollingers article that rose doesnt get to the line because he has great body control and doesnt act like others do. so the refs dont see a foul. How hard is that to figure out since your the genius you claim to be?

sargon21
12-10-2010, 03:37 PM
Chronz is overrated :laugh2:

Back on topic, watch Rose and you will see he does not get enough calls as he should, because of his great body control, composure, and strength; with that being said, if he wants to become more efficient he will need to get to the line about 8 times a game instead of 5 times a game. But at the same time, if he does try to seek contact more (which I believe is not as big of a problem as it was in the past, he used to avoid contact to finish, now he's seeking contact and finishing, it's just going to take some time for the refs to adjust), but it would risk injury, so it is a double-edged sword.

Sadds The Gr8
12-10-2010, 03:38 PM
u obviously dont see the games then. When he is attacking the basket he gets hit constantly in the forearm. You want to see what you want to see. Against the cavs, a replayed showed how he got reached in by three different people going to the basket and no call, Y, I dont know.

lol horrible excuse...that can be said for any player in the league. And why are Bulls fans supporting the fact that he doesn't go to the line? Shouldn't you guys want him to?:confused:

D1JM
12-10-2010, 03:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGx72iC1Cds

push from behind from westbrook

Are the refs looking at Rose or westbrook? Or just getting mesmerized by his explosion?

Yunqn
12-10-2010, 03:38 PM
and if you read or ever watch him play they state its because he has so much body control and strength that even when he gets hit he can stay on his feet and still glide around contact and finish. thus playin so smooth that refs dnt call fouls....get off rose n*ts

That doesn't make sense because lebron is just as strong as anyone who foul him.. and even if he did "glide" through why doesn't he get the phantom calls that dwayne wade or devil Harris gets? They just don't call it.. wade, out of every call he gets he's.not on the floor from them "every" call. its just bias.. you can't prove me wrong.. we all as bulls fans see he def atleast should avg.7 or 8.. rose should be up there among league leaders.. were not asking for fake calls.. just be real with us.. you don't say because wade or lebron overpowers them o glide by.. its bull

Hawkeye15
12-10-2010, 03:41 PM
couple of things. I am closing this simply because its text from ESPN Insider, and because there is no link.
Bulls fans, you have GOT to become more mature at taking criticism about Rose. And non-Bulls fans, you have GOT to stop baiting them into pointless arguments. Talking about Rose and Rondo has become as productive as talking about politics and religion between a liberal and a conservative.

GROW UP SOME OF YOU