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View Full Version : What does Werth's deal do for Crawford?



stlbest5in2013
12-05-2010, 09:06 PM
im not saying werth is a bad player, but he has never had a great year in a real ballpark, only in that soft ball park in philly.

and average of 18 million for a guy who didnt even come close to 100 rbi last season?

crawford is far and away the better player, what will he get? 22-23 million a year?????

boras, the evil genius

DodgerBlue8188
12-05-2010, 09:09 PM
I think it guarantees Crawford gets a deal no less than what Werth received.

Towelie
12-05-2010, 09:15 PM
I disagree with that, nationals were desperate for who they wanted. Doesn't mean the same will happen for CC.

Rossi
12-05-2010, 09:16 PM
He gets 7 years 150 mil. I think he would have gotten Werth's contract prior to the Nats signing him to this outlandish deal. Now he gets way more.

Here's my prediction: Since Boston has lost out on Gonzalez and they tend to have to inflate their payroll in order to keep up with the Yankees, they will give Crawford the deal.

If a "normal" team signs Crawford, they better get used to the lineup that they have for the next 5 - 7 years because they're not getting another free agent for almost another decade.

kjoke
12-05-2010, 09:19 PM
50 mill over 5....he gonna discount to play with the marlins :)

nr19
12-05-2010, 09:23 PM
8/140 for Crawford. If the Angels, Sox, and Yankees are involved it's going to be an insane contract no doubt.

If Werth can get 7 years Crawford can get 8.

Wrench
12-05-2010, 09:26 PM
With Crawford being younger it means he will probably be getting a 8th year.

Jeffy25
12-05-2010, 09:27 PM
With Crawford being younger it means he will probably be getting a 8th year.

This, but I don't think he signs for as much per year.

VladTheImpaler
12-05-2010, 09:29 PM
With Gonzalez looking like he's only getting 7, my guess is that's what Crawford will settle on. Definitely more money, though. Hopefully the Angels step up.

Kinsm
12-05-2010, 09:29 PM
He gets 7 years 150 mil. I think he would have gotten Werth's contract prior to the Nats signing him to this outlandish deal. Now he gets way more.

Here's my prediction: Since Boston has lost out on Gonzalez and they tend to have to inflate their payroll in order to keep up with the Yankees, they will give Crawford the deal.

If a "normal" team signs Crawford, they better get used to the lineup that they have for the next 5 - 7 years because they're not getting another free agent for almost another decade.

Boston didn't lose Gonzalez.

Towelie
12-05-2010, 09:30 PM
The question is who's gonna give him 8 years? The Sox won't, they didn't want to do Agon at 8 years why would CC get it from us? The Angels won't bid against themselves.

MelanconMadness
12-05-2010, 09:31 PM
8/152

I think the Werth deal, because he was grossly overpaid, and as Brian Cashman said "it makes some of our contracts look good" will make little difference in the Crawford deal. I dont think Crawford is a 20M per season player, but because hes younger, and better than Werth, he'll make 19M

1903
12-05-2010, 09:35 PM
The Nationals out bid themselves to get Werth (was anyone else even close to 7/126?) Crawford and his agent can use Werth as an example or perhaps no team is willing to blow everyone else out of the water like the Nats did with Werth and Crawford gets the same or less.

-Lavigne43-
12-05-2010, 09:36 PM
I think it guarantees Crawford gets a deal no less than what Werth received.

He'll ask for more than what Werth got but that doesn't mean another team is stupid enough to give him that

Rossi
12-05-2010, 09:37 PM
Boston didn't lose Gonzalez.

I think they did. Unless I've been reading incorrectly for the past few hours, but the reports say that the deal died because they couldn't sign him to a contract extension so they declined.

Kinsm
12-05-2010, 09:40 PM
I think they did. Unless I've been reading incorrectly for the past few hours, but the reports say that the deal died because they couldn't sign him to a contract extension so they declined.

The Red Sox have acquired Adrian Gonzalez and a press conference is scheduled for tomorrow, tweets SI's Jon Heyman. Boston seems satisfied that the parameters are in place for a new contract though no extension will be announced at this time, Heyman tweets.

The Padres will receive Casey Kelly, Anthony Rizzo, and Reymond Fuentes in exchange for their star player, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (via Twitter).


If Boston waits until after Opening Day to ink Gonzalez to a new deal, the deal will not impact the 2011 payroll, saving them money on the luxury tax. Several high-priced members of the Red Sox come off of the books after 2011, including David Ortiz, J.D. Drew, Marco Scutaro, and Mike Cameron. It also seems that the Red Sox want to see how Gonzalez's shoulder looks in spring training before committing major dollars and years to the slugger, according to Joel Sherman of the NY Post (via Twitter).
December 5 at 7:04pm CST

stlbest5in2013
12-05-2010, 09:40 PM
This, but I don't think he signs for as much per year.

i hear ya, but werth is not in the same league as crawford. to think the yearly salary will be the same, doesnt seem right to me.

it may go down like that, but he shouldnt settle for it, with seeing what werth got.

remember bay got X from the mets, so the cardinals had to pay X plus more for holliday. plus they were the only real team after him, just boras got baltimore to throw out an offer, to ensure his client gets what he gets

nyyfan4life
12-05-2010, 09:41 PM
Werth > Crawford

MagicBucsSox
12-05-2010, 09:43 PM
I think they did. Unless I've been reading incorrectly for the past few hours, but the reports say that the deal died because they couldn't sign him to a contract extension so they declined.

dude the deal is done 7yr 23 per

Tragedy
12-05-2010, 09:49 PM
Werth > Crawford
I can actually agree with that. However, I still think $126 for Werth is just too damn much money.

nyyfan4life
12-05-2010, 09:51 PM
I can actually agree with that. However, I still think $126 for Werth is just too damn much money.

Yeah. But everyone is overpaid nowadays. Werth for 7 years > Crawford for 7+, IMO. You know what you get from Werth (very consistent the past 3 seasons) and his game isn't reliant on speed like CC's is.

Towelie
12-05-2010, 09:52 PM
I think if anything this means Crawford might not sign until he settle's and then decides that he's not going to get Werth money. Nobody is dumb enough to sign that deal.

iggypop123
12-05-2010, 09:53 PM
carl crawford right now: :dance::dance::dance::dance:

Tragedy
12-05-2010, 09:54 PM
Yeah. But everyone is overpaid nowadays. Werth for 7 years > Crawford for 7+, IMO. You know what you get from Werth (very consistent the past 3 seasons) and his game isn't reliant on speed like CC's is.
Yeah, I can agree yet again. I was just so much more interested in Werth when people thought he would get Jason Bay money, or somewhere in the 80 million range. That would have been something for a team like the Red Sox to jump for. $126...Ehh.

Gigantes4Life
12-05-2010, 10:00 PM
Why is no one addressing the OP and how wrong it is. CBP is a real ballpark, it slightly inflates homerun totals but cuts down on extra basehits because of the small outfield, something Werth excels at.

Ballparks also don't magically give you plate discipline.

RBI are useless, and Crawford is in no way the far superior player.

jd25213
12-05-2010, 10:01 PM
I can say this, this deal makes Crawford the happiest man in America.

justndav
12-05-2010, 10:08 PM
I don't know that Carl Crawford should exactly be dancing in the streets over this. His speed will decline with age and that's a big part of his game. He's not a huge HR hitter so what would you base a huge offer to him on? I wouldn't base it on speed because he will lose that with age to be sure. I actually think Crawford's contract should be less mainly because he's not the HR hitter Werth is. Either way though I'm sure both Werth and Crawford will end up being way overpaid and their new teams will regret the deals in about three or four years.

stlbest5in2013
12-05-2010, 10:41 PM
ughhhh crafword had more rbi's last year. crawford had more steals, craford had a highe BA. crawford has been a starter for years. werth has not.

ball parks do make a huge difference, espicially with hitters. ask beltre if he perfers to hit in boston or seattle. the ball flies out of philly its no secret. good pitchers are good in that park, average pitchers are not.

are you going to sit here and tell me that vitorino, while a nice player, is going to put up the same power numbers as this season if he is in a pitchers park. i dont think so

Gigantes4Life
12-05-2010, 10:58 PM
ughhhh crafword had more rbi's last year. crawford had more steals, craford had a highe BA. crawford has been a starter for years. werth has not.

And despite all that, Werth still got on base more and slugged at a higher level, being an all-around more productive hitter.


ball parks do make a huge difference, espicially with hitters. ask beltre if he perfers to hit in boston or seattle. the ball flies out of philly its no secret. good pitchers are good in that park, average pitchers are not.

Actually, that ballpark is closer to neutral than it is a hitter's park. Thanks for the false dilemma fallacy though.


are you going to sit here and tell me that vitorino, while a nice player, is going to put up the same power numbers as this season if he is in a pitchers park. i dont think so

Funny, because this helps your argument in no manner at all. Yes, players benefit at some parks more than others. But despite that, Werth is still the better hitter when you park-adjust for everything. Is Werth suddenly going to lose the ability to work the count? To get XBH? If he does, it's not because of the ballpark.

Jeffy25
12-05-2010, 11:13 PM
i hear ya, but werth is not in the same league as crawford. to think the yearly salary will be the same, doesnt seem right to me.

it may go down like that, but he shouldnt settle for it, with seeing what werth got.

remember bay got X from the mets, so the cardinals had to pay X plus more for holliday. plus they were the only real team after him, just boras got baltimore to throw out an offer, to ensure his client gets what he gets

actually, Boras made up that Baltimore offer, pretty public knowledge now that he did.

Sure, new contracts drive new salaries, but it's all up to the ownership group how much they are willing to pay a guy. If no one will pay Crawford Werth like money, he can't really go around demanding it.

stlbest5in2013
12-05-2010, 11:17 PM
yeah, casue slugging, and obp make a player great. if this was the case, then why are there not going to be any teams, offering manny ramirez 30 million dollars for one year. so what if he has declined, he can still hit the ball out of the park, and draw a walk.

trust me, if carl crawford end up in new york as a yankee, he will have at least 20 if not 30 home runs next year.

and trust me again, if there was a poll out there of managers, scouts, and gm's. it wouldnt even be close to who they perfer. its crawford hands down. he has a longer proven track record, is the better athlete, never bounced around from team to team as a reserve, oh and the fact he has a better track record, and a longer one. he is still younger than werth, and its not by month's, its by years.

oh and to top it off, no way in hell is werth going to be worth 18-20 million+ a year at ages 37 and 38. this is assuming its a back loaded contract. (less per year to start, more in the last couple years, like most deals are)

the last thing here, werth couldnt his a watermelon for like 3 months in a row with runners in scoring position. all he is, is hr potential, and if the rest of the team does their job he may crack 100rbi 2-5 times. im not paying a guy who has been a starter for "3" years, coming off a sub par season for a corner outfielder. 18 f'ing million dollars a year

Impaler
12-05-2010, 11:19 PM
I can say this, this deal makes Crawford the happiest man in America.

yep.

The Adam Dunn deal looks like he took a discount

stlbest5in2013
12-05-2010, 11:20 PM
if slugging and obp make a hitter worth 18 million, then the cards are going to get hosed in arbitration for colby rasmus. because in not only those stats, but others he was one of the best CF in baseball last year. as a cardinals fan i know he can be great, but still has a ways to go. but if this is how players get paid, he will be getting huge contracts for the rest of his career

TheRuckus
12-05-2010, 11:23 PM
Why is no one addressing the OP and how wrong it is. CBP is a real ballpark, it slightly inflates homerun totals but cuts down on extra basehits because of the small outfield, something Werth excels at.

Ballparks also don't magically give you plate discipline.

RBI are useless, and Crawford is in no way the far superior player.

I'm just seeing this thread now, or I would've. Glad you took care of it, but I think you're spinning your wheels with someone who can say this:


yeah, casue slugging, and obp make a player great. if this was the case [continued foolishness]

...with a straight face.

More-Than-Most
12-05-2010, 11:25 PM
This deal does nothing for crawford... 1 team making a dumb offer will not break the flood gates and make other teams do it. Apparently not even the red sox were willing to offer more than 4 years for werth.

Jeffy25
12-05-2010, 11:27 PM
yeah, casue slugging, and obp make a player great. if this was the case, then why are there not going to be any teams, offering manny ramirez 30 million dollars for one year. so what if he has declined, he can still hit the ball out of the park, and draw a walk.

That is what makes a great hitter. Not what makes a great player. Unless you are in the AL, you also have to play defense.

Manny is a completely different story. But you are a Pujols fan for example, what makes Albert so great is his high obp and slugging percentage. They are the principles to understanding the value of an offensive player.




trust me, if carl crawford end up in new york as a yankee, he will have at least 20 if not 30 home runs next year.

Seeing how he has never even hit 20 homers in a season, I don't see how you can promise he would hit 30 just because he has a shorter porch in right field for 81 games a year. In fact, a hit meter will tell you he won't.


and trust me again, if there was a poll out there of managers, scouts, and gm's. it wouldnt even be close to who they perfer. its crawford hands down. he has a longer proven track record, is the better athlete, never bounced around from team to team as a reserve, oh and the fact he has a better track record, and a longer one. he is still younger than werth, and its not by month's, its by years.

I bet you are wrong, both players are fairly even in their overall value....one is more of a slugger, the other is more of a defensive threat.

Stealing bases doesn't really present a lot of value to a team to win.


oh and to top it off, no way in hell is werth going to be worth 18-20 million+ a year at ages 37 and 38. this is assuming its a back loaded contract. (less per year to start, more in the last couple years, like most deals are)
I don't think anyone here thinks Werth will be worth that much than either.



I guess you haven't seen the surprise I left for you in the Cardinals section in the ballpark village thread yet

Jeffy25
12-05-2010, 11:29 PM
If I was a Phillies fan I would be jumping for joy over this.

Sure, it sucks to lose one of your top sluggers, but to know the Nationals just shot themselves in the face with this signing for years to come is going to make the bad extensions they have on record not looking as bad.

More-Than-Most
12-05-2010, 11:37 PM
If I was a Phillies fan I would be jumping for joy over this.

Sure, it sucks to lose one of your top sluggers, but to know the Nationals just shot themselves in the face with this signing for years to come is going to make the bad extensions they have on record not looking as bad.

I am happy... I was setting myself up to be so angry and sad because I figured he would sign somewhere else for 5 years... I wanted the Phillies to offer him 4 years with an option for a 5th year but that's it... Him getting this much is closure... Knowing we had no shot at signing him makes things so much easier. Also this might open the door for willingham now.

iggypop123
12-05-2010, 11:38 PM
this has mike hampton written all over it.

Celtic AL
12-05-2010, 11:42 PM
Crawford will be an angel! Tori Hunter wants him, Carl wants to live in the West coast! & this is Arties Year to make a Big Splash for the Angels this Offseason. plus he fits in there lineup.

Super.
12-06-2010, 12:35 AM
I think they did. Unless I've been reading incorrectly for the past few hours, but the reports say that the deal died because they couldn't sign him to a contract extension so they declined.

No, the Red Sox have offically acquired AGon. And I believe that a contract extension is in place.

Halopower31
12-06-2010, 12:41 AM
Crawford will still sign a contract with the Angels worth 6yr 114mil

jdolan74
12-06-2010, 07:30 AM
I'll tell you who Carl Crawford reminds me of... Derek Jeter... except Crawford steals more bases and plays a less important defensive position. Still, they are both basically leadoff hitters. They score runs. That's what they are counted on for. And Jeter got $189 over 10 years. So it's safe to assume Crawford will get $18-19m per season. It's just a matter of how many years. I'd say that a team like Detroit might be willing to take that risk. If it is 8 years, then $150m is the number. And if they have to add option years, it'll likely be $155-160m in guaranteed money.

CF Austin Jackson
LF Carl Crawford
1B Miguel Cabrera
DH Victor Martinez
RF Brandon Boesch
SS Jhonny Peralta
3B Brandon Inge
2B Ryan Raburn
C Alex Avila

This is a lineup that REALLY needs Carl Crawford and will probably have to overpay with years to get him. The same way the Nats did with Werth.

mike_noodles
12-06-2010, 07:52 AM
im not saying werth is a bad player, but he has never had a great year in a real ballpark, only in that soft ball park in philly.

and average of 18 million for a guy who didnt even come close to 100 rbi last season?

crawford is far and away the better player, what will he get? 22-23 million a year?????

boras, the evil genius

I couldn't believe that they gave him that much. That is top 20 position player money which Werth is not. He is a nice player, but I was thinking in the $10m range, maybe $12m if there were multiple suitors, this is ridiculous.

MLB needs a cap.

Jeffy25
12-06-2010, 08:05 AM
what does the Nationals overpaying to have Werth have to do with the mlb needing a cap, as you say?

Let them overpay if they want to

Fred
12-06-2010, 09:37 AM
sound heard at the Crawford house following the Werth announcement:


"BOIIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGG"

that is the sound of instant boner knowing his contract is likely to be higher than werth's

TheRuckus
12-06-2010, 09:50 AM
If I was a Phillies fan I would be jumping for joy over this.

Sure, it sucks to lose one of your top sluggers, but to know the Nationals just shot themselves in the face with this signing for years to come is going to make the bad extensions they have on record not looking as bad.

Can't jump for joy over my favorite player leaving my favorite team, but knowing this will be an albatross for the Nats eventually is nice.

Still not as ludicrously awful as the Howard contract, though.

misterd
12-06-2010, 10:39 AM
I think Werth helps CC in two ways:

1. CC is regarded as the better player, and should expect his $$$ to go up.

2. There is now just 1 premium OF left on the market, which should intensify the bidding war.

Now, whether or not other teams will exceed Werth's contract is debatable - that was not a good contract and I would hope GMs wouldn't allow themselves to be bullied into matching or surpassing that mistake. However, if the Red Sox need to outbid the Angels (or vice versa), that might make Werth's contract moot.

bringbackfredex
12-06-2010, 10:57 AM
Why is no one addressing the OP and how wrong it is. CBP is a real ballpark, it slightly inflates homerun totals but cuts down on extra basehits because of the small outfield, something Werth excels at.

Ballparks also don't magically give you plate discipline.

RBI are useless, and Crawford is in no way the far superior player.

Thank you, you somewhat addressed what I was just about to say.

Stats show that CBP is actually a very neutral ballpark, even though it seems like it slightly favors the hitters. I hate to tell you guys, but if you put a lineup like the Pirates in CBP, balls wouldn't fly out of there like they do now. A lot of that success is just how good the middle of the Phillies lineup has been for years.

And I agree about Crawford. He may hit for more contact than Werth and he may steal more bases, but Werth is the better all-around player.

bringbackfredex
12-06-2010, 11:00 AM
Can't jump for joy over my favorite player leaving my favorite team, but knowing this will be an albatross for the Nats eventually is nice.

Still not as ludicrously awful as the Howard contract, though.

I don't like Howards contract either for what he is, but I wouldn't call it awful by any means. We locked up the biggest power threat on our team for only 5 years, and I would prefer that over letting him walk and having to deal with another Travis Lee type player at 1B, especially with the departure of Werth and the hole that's going to leave in the lineup.

VenezuelanMet
12-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Why is no one addressing the OP and how wrong it is. CBP is a real ballpark, it slightly inflates homerun totals but cuts down on extra basehits because of the small outfield, something Werth excels at.

Ballparks also don't magically give you plate discipline.

RBI are useless, and Crawford is in no way the far superior player.

I agree with this, but why are there BB and K park factors then? Serious question, I've always been curious about that.

And after thinking more, I'm not entirely sure Crawford will get that much more. Just because one team went nuts doesn't mean every team will follow.

adab
12-06-2010, 11:12 AM
Rumour galore. Since it appears the Blue Jays are set to formally trade Shaun Marcum to Millwaukee for a prospect and get involved in the Zack Greinke sweepstakes, I would not be surprised to see them go after Carl Crawford. This is a team that opperates very quietly. Alex Anthopolous, their GM, has been given the authority to improve the team and is allowed to spend the necessary money. Part of the rumoured deal to get Greinke is to move Travis Snyder. This would leave an opening in the OF and the Blue Jays have a glaring need for a leadoff hitter. Blue Jay ownership has more money than almost any other team (they just bid $1.3 billion to buy Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment, owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Raptors and Toronto FC soccer team) and if they feel a guy like Crawford can get them to the playoffs, don't be surprised to see them swoop in and get this guy.

Madness23
12-06-2010, 11:14 AM
actually i dont see any team outside of the angels bidding for him right now ! maybe texas when if/they miss on lee

JOSKOMANG4
12-06-2010, 11:29 AM
Angels will come in.. 7yr 119mill.