PDA

View Full Version : Big men, underrated?



Bos_Sports4Life
11-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Im just curious, why are guys like kobe and lebron built up and hyped to death (no dissrespect to either, both great players) while guys like duncan win 4 titles i believe as the main guy, get little hype and little talk while lebron cant win any yet hes hyped and talked about on a daily basis. This has always made little sense to me as big men are GENERALLY the key to a teams title chances. anyone have any opinions on this?

Chacarron
11-28-2010, 09:27 PM
Nike.

Sixerlover
11-28-2010, 09:32 PM
Other than Shaq and Dwight big men are notoriously bad marketers

Evolution23
11-28-2010, 09:34 PM
Duncan is humble and not a thug so therefore he is not cool. That means his popularity will not match Lebron or Kobe.

chicago lulz
11-28-2010, 09:37 PM
I had no idea Kobe and Lebron were thugs.

knicksfan42
11-28-2010, 09:47 PM
I had no idea Kobe and Lebron were thugs.

Maybe not thugs per se, a holes is a better word.

Bos_Sports4Life
11-28-2010, 10:22 PM
Other than Shaq and Dwight big men are notoriously bad marketers

but some people don't even realize the importance, and often underrate the importance, ill give a few recent examples


2005-2006 miami heat, people always say wade was by far the most important piece, shaq was along for the ride ect, this is just flat out wrong, shaq still scored 20 ppg, while shooting 60%, and hauling in 9 boards, and getting 1.8 blocks a game, while getting a lot of attention on offence from multiple defenders, I honestly think even at his age, he was still as key if not more key



2006-2007 spurs, again, people try to claim tony parker was more important than duncan, this is even more false than the 1st excample and this is almost laughable, Duncan averaged 20/10.8/3.4 with 2.4 blocks a game. Duncan was in this case CLEARLY the key to this spurs team, not parker

Enemey
11-28-2010, 10:30 PM
I guess being called the greatest PF of all time is not enough?

GspLAL
11-28-2010, 10:33 PM
I guess being called the greatest PF of all time is not enough?

My thoughts exactly, he's not underrated at all he's just on the decline so people don't talk about him as much.

numba1CHANGsta
11-28-2010, 10:35 PM
cuz big men are not fun to watch lol everyone lovess those clutch outside shooters and not the easy dunks/layups/close range shots, I mean who's more fun to watch Dirk or Duncan? ;)

Dol-Fan
11-28-2010, 10:44 PM
cuz big men are not fun to watch lol everyone lovess those clutch outside shooters and not the easy dunks/layups/close range shots, I mean who's more fun to watch Dirk or Duncan? ;)

Honestly, Duncan in his prime was my favourite player to watch. Obviously it's not the sexy choice, but he just did work every night.

Bos_Sports4Life
11-28-2010, 10:48 PM
I guess being called the greatest PF of all time is not enough?

But, please be unbiased, why Does kobe/Lebron ect get talked about more than a guy like duncan? Duncan has done just as much as them if not more, yet, he gets 1/3 the hype, maybe even less

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-28-2010, 10:48 PM
Its because guards make the game easier for bigs. The guards are the ones who have to have the talent to slash to the basket, draw the opposing big to help, and dump it off to the big man on your team for the 100% sure dunk or layup. Or even if the guard goes up for the layup and misses, most likely the other big is out of position for the rebound giving your big a chance for an easy rebound and put back. He gets twice the production off another players creativity.

Also, those great rebounding numbers are flawed as well. A big man will get 4 to 5 defensive rebounds a game just because a player missed a freethrow. He gets to stand in front of the line and not have to battle anyone for the board. In that situation, he gets to add to his rebounding total, defensive rebounding%, total rebounding% and PER. All those things increase without even needing to have any type of skill at all.

I have seen guards win without a great big man. Jordan did it 6 times, Rick Barry did it, Isaiah Thomas did it twice, the back court of Rip Hamilton and Billups did it for the Pistons. Hakeem would be the only big to win a ring without a very good backcourt, or star guard. But then again, he did it in the 90's when pretty much no great big had a great guard next to him. So it was bound to happen for one of them.

ink
11-28-2010, 10:49 PM
I guess being called the greatest PF of all time is not enough?


My thoughts exactly, he's not underrated at all he's just on the decline so people don't talk about him as much.

I think he's talking about the general public. Obviously basketball fans should know how good Duncan is. Just ask advertisers who sells more product. It'll be a wing or a guard.

ink
11-28-2010, 10:51 PM
But, please be unbiased, why Does kobe/Lebron ect get talked about more than a guy like duncan? Duncan has done just as much as them if not more, yet, he gets 1/3 the hype, maybe even less

It's all based on personality. Duncan is even and consistent and never fails you. That's not very dramatic. ****ed up I know but that's how marketing works.

Geargo Wallace
11-28-2010, 10:54 PM
because the 1, 2, and 3 are sexy positions and the game is slowly changing to serve them best. Ppl like to overrate wing players because they generally have more "skill" than the big men, but the best big men still have a greater impact on the game and it still takes a down low presence on O and D to win ships.

Bos_Sports4Life
11-28-2010, 10:56 PM
Its because guards make the game easier for bigs. The guards are the ones who have to have the talent to slash to the basket, draw the opposing big to help, and dump it off to the big man on your team for the 100% sure dunk or layup. Or even if the guard goes up for the layup and misses, most likely the other big is out of position for the rebound giving your big a chance for an easy rebound and put back. He gets twice the production off another players creativity.

Also, those great rebounding numbers are flawed as well. A big man will get 4 to 5 defensive rebounds a game just because a player missed a freethrow. He gets to stand in front of the line and not have to battle anyone for the board. In that situation, he gets to add to his rebounding total, defensive rebounding%, total rebounding% and PER. All those things increase without even needing to have any type of skill at all.

I have seen guards win without a great big man. Jordan did it 6 times, Rick Barry did it, Isaiah Thomas did it twice, the back court of Rip Hamilton and Billups did it for the Pistons. Hakeem would be the only big to win a ring without a very good backcourt, or star guard. But then again, he did it in the 90's when pretty much no great big had a great guard next to him. So it was bound to happen for one of them.



I HIGHLY dissagree, Great centers add more value than a great scorers

Enemey
11-28-2010, 11:11 PM
But, please be unbiased, why Does kobe/Lebron ect get talked about more than a guy like duncan? Duncan has done just as much as them if not more, yet, he gets 1/3 the hype, maybe even less

Two words... Michael Jordan .

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-28-2010, 11:16 PM
I HIGHLY dissagree, Great centers add more value than a great scorers

Well, that ends the discussion then. I am wrong and you are right. Thanks for the reasoning. :rolleyes:

garlicboy
11-28-2010, 11:22 PM
It's all based on personality. Duncan is even and consistent and never fails you. That's not very dramatic. ****ed up I know but that's how marketing works.

In addition on the court what do want to see?

A dunk or a drop step?

Case in point.

Geargo Wallace
11-28-2010, 11:24 PM
In addition on the court what do want to see?

A dunk or a drop step?

Case in point.

Frankly if my team is winning I will watch hook shots every possession.

garlicboy
11-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Among basketball coaches, I think they will value the big man, amongst fans the want the flash.

Substance over style, but that's not how popularity works.

ink
11-28-2010, 11:26 PM
Among basketball coaches, I think they will value the big man, amongst fans the want the flash.

Substance over style, but that's not how popularity works.

Well put.

garlicboy
11-28-2010, 11:27 PM
Frankly if my team is winning I will watch hook shots every possession.

Same here. I'm just giving my 2 cents on why some players are marketed more than others.

Just because your a winner does not make you marketable.

MrfadeawayJB
11-28-2010, 11:28 PM
To answer your question, yes...they always have been and always will be, but the best teams all have a inside presence

ink
11-28-2010, 11:30 PM
If you want attention as a big man you have to wear clown shoes like Shaq. ;)

garlicboy
11-28-2010, 11:30 PM
Interesting thread.

Check the Golden State Warriors forum. I proposed the possibility of trading Stephen Curry and people went Ape sh-t!!!

I just want to see what we can get for him(I want a big guy and to get rid of Biedrins in the process and of course other young players). They wouldn't trade him for Carmelo Anthony, so what the bar and what value can we get for him?

Of course Curry getting traded is so unlikely, but check the thread.

garlicboy
11-28-2010, 11:31 PM
If you want attention as a big man you have to wear clown shoes like Shaq. ;)

Can't get much more Clowny than big *** shoes with a pump.

Geargo Wallace
11-28-2010, 11:36 PM
Same here. I'm just giving my 2 cents on why some players are marketed more than others.

Just because your a winner does not make you marketable.

exactly... and I wasn't being critical <3

Bos_Sports4Life
11-28-2010, 11:49 PM
Well, that ends the discussion then. I am wrong and you are right. Thanks for the reasoning. :rolleyes:

haha, my pizza was going to burn, but, here it goes

The celtics have NEVER won without a hof big man, all 17 championships have come with a hof big (russel in the 60's, cowens in the 70's, parrish/mchale in the 80's and kg just a few yrs back)

The lakers have 16 championships, and i don't believe any of there titles have been won without a hof big man, considering i think gasol is going in

Now, im not saying the big man has to be the #1 option HOWEVER they are USUALLY required and they are a lot harder too find and replace once you lose one, some teams go through decades without finding a big man, however a good scorer is usually quite easy, now if you don't see where im coming from, im sorry

Geargo Wallace
11-28-2010, 11:52 PM
haha, my pizza was going to burn, but, here it goes

The celtics have NEVER won without a hof big man, all 17 championships have come with a hof big (russel in the 60's, cowens in the 70's, parrish/mchale in the 80's and kg just a few yrs back)

The lakers have 16 championships, and i don't believe any of there titles have been won without a hof big man, considering i think gasol is going in

Now, im not saying the big man has to be the #1 option HOWEVER they are USUALLY required and they are a lot harder too find and replace once you lose one, some teams go through decades without finding a big man, however a good scorer is usually quite easy, now if you don't see where im coming from, im sorry

This. And if you replaced Kobe with almost any other star wing in the league I bet the Lakers would about just as well off as they are with him.

CityofChaos
11-28-2010, 11:52 PM
But if you think about it, none of the Spurs players are talked about much ....unless of course one of them gets married to a celebrity wife and then cheats on her with an ex-teammates wife.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 12:14 AM
haha, my pizza was going to burn, but, here it goes

The celtics have NEVER won without a hof big man, all 17 championships have come with a hof big (russel in the 60's, cowens in the 70's, parrish/mchale in the 80's and kg just a few yrs back)

The lakers have 16 championships, and i don't believe any of there titles have been won without a hof big man, considering i think gasol is going in

Now, im not saying the big man has to be the #1 option HOWEVER they are USUALLY required and they are a lot harder too find and replace once you lose one, some teams go through decades without finding a big man, however a good scorer is usually quite easy, now if you don't see where im coming from, im sorry

I could easily flip it around. None of those 17 championships the Celtics won were without an elite ball handler. All of the L.A. Lakers championships have had either Jerry West, Magic Johnson, or Kobe Bryant.

Like I said, more guards have won a championship without any type of big man worth noting than big man have won without a great back court.

Also, the reason you think big men are irreeplaceable is because you are looking at their high field goal% high rebound totals, and maybe 2 blocks. But as I pointed out earlier, most of a big mans points come off dishes from their wings, penetration from thier wings, alley oops from their wings, put backs after thier wing drew his man away from him and put the opposing big man out of position. etc. Very few of a big mans points come from any type of skill. A lot of a big mans rebounds come from the scenario I pointed out earlier as well. I just saw Lamar Odom grab 3 rebounds that he only had to fight off his own teammate Pau Gasol for. The Pacer player missed the free throw, and Lamar reaps the benifits, just like all big men get to do. Does that mean they are better or more important of a player than anyone else? If we made it so that only guards could go stand at the free throw line, and the bigs had to stand out around the three point line, gaurds would grab more rebounds, as well as have more points and assist. You would see a big man as someone who gets to take the ball out of bounds after a made basket.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 12:17 AM
This. And if you replaced Kobe with almost any other star wing in the league I bet the Lakers would about just as well off as they are with him.

Yeah, and the Lakers could replace Pau with at least 10 other bigs and win a championship as well.

And people consider Joe Johnson a star wing. Do the Lakers win with him? How about Vince Carter? How about Ray Allen? What do you classify as a star wing? Cause the only shooting gaurd I see replacing Kobe and winning a championship is Wade.

Geargo Wallace
11-29-2010, 12:34 AM
Yeah, and the Lakers could replace Pau with at least 10 other bigs and win a championship as well.

And people consider Joe Johnson a star wing. Do the Lakers win with him? How about Vince Carter? How about Ray Allen? What do you classify as a star wing? Cause the only shooting gaurd I see replacing Kobe and winning a championship is Wade.

You could only substitute Pau for Timmy D, maybe Howard, and maybe even a KG. I don't think Chris Bosh or David Lee could fill in for Pau.

LeBron, Wade, Melo, I could name a tonne of PG's that could give the team the same winning effect. Put Kobe in Wade's spot atm and the Heat will still stink it up. Put Pau in Bosh's spot and I bet they'd be a lot better.

Bos_Sports4Life
11-29-2010, 12:41 AM
I could easily flip it around. None of those 17 championships the Celtics won were without an elite ball handler. All of the L.A. Lakers championships have had either Jerry West, Magic Johnson, or Kobe Bryant.

Like I said, more guards have won a championship without any type of big man worth noting than big man have won without a great back court.

Also, the reason you think big men are irreeplaceable is because you are looking at their high field goal% high rebound totals, and maybe 2 blocks. But as I pointed out earlier, most of a big mans points come off dishes from their wings, penetration from thier wings, alley oops from their wings, put backs after thier wing drew his man away from him and put the opposing big man out of position. etc. Very few of a big mans points come from any type of skill. A lot of a big mans rebounds come from the scenario I pointed out earlier as well. I just saw Lamar Odom grab 3 rebounds that he only had to fight off his own teammate Pau Gasol for. The Pacer player missed the free throw, and Lamar reaps the benifits, just like all big men get to do. Does that mean they are better or more important of a player than anyone else? If we made it so that only guards could go stand at the free throw line, and the bigs had to stand out around the three point line, gaurds would grab more rebounds, as well as have more points and assist. You would see a big man as someone who gets to take the ball out of bounds after a made basket.

I agree they needed those great guards, but those guards were easier to replace, The c's replaced cousy/sharmen/heinson ect without a huge problem, great low post players are flat out more rare and harder to replace, the celtics went from 86-2008 without winning a title? why, they couldnt find a great low post guy, thats 22 yrs without finding someone, they did however find several scorers.

The lakers have a rare amount of size to compliment kobe, they have at times bynum/gasol/odom all on the floor at the same time, thats a TON of length

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:02 AM
You could only substitute Pau for Timmy D, maybe Howard, and maybe even a KG. I don't think Chris Bosh or David Lee could fill in for Pau.

LeBron, Wade, Melo, I could name a tonne of PG's that could give the team the same winning effect. Put Kobe in Wade's spot atm and the Heat will still stink it up. Put Pau in Bosh's spot and I bet they'd be a lot better.

Put Kobe in Wades spot and they would still stink it up? You mean give Kobe the more talent than he has ever played with before? You mean to tell me that he does less with more? Kobe is not a one dimensional player. He can affect the game from any where on the floor. He does not need someone to set a pick for him. He would be the Heats go to player in the post and someone who could spread the floor for Lebron when he drives. Wade has played down right awful this year. Are you telling me that Kobe would be playing down right awful as well? If so, you must think that Lebron hinders his players instead of making them better. Right? Cause that would be three great players in the league who suffer because they play next to him.

You seem to be playing fantasy sports and just thinking you could put this guy and his numbers in any team and any scenario, and their numbers would not change. Have you not been watching the Heat? What is Lebron doing when he has more offensive help than he has ever had? His numbers go down. Same with Wade, Same with Bosh. Kobe has been playing with elite offensive talent his whole career. So his numbers have already been stunted do to playing with players who dont need everything spoon fed to them. If Kobe played in Wades spot last year, His numbers would have been better than Wade, if Wade played on the Lakers. Would you discredit Wade and say, "Kobe could have done it too". Or would you say, "Kobe put up numbers on a bad team". Im thinking the latter.

Geargo Wallace
11-29-2010, 01:08 AM
Put Kobe in Wades spot and they would still stink it up? You mean give Kobe the more talent than he has ever played with before? You mean to tell me that he does less with more? Kobe is not a one dimensional player. He can affect the game from any where on the floor. He does not need someone to set a pick for him. He would be the Heats go to player in the post and someone who could spread the floor for Lebron when he drives. Wade has played down right awful this year. Are you telling me that Kobe would be playing down right awful as well? If so, you must think that Lebron hinders his players instead of making them better. Right? Cause that would be three great players in the league who suffer because they play next to him.

nope just commenting on the fact that the Heat's front court is vastly inferior to that of the Lakers. Kobe couldn't win a championship with Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:19 AM
nope just commenting on the fact that the Heat's front court is vastly inferior to that of the Lakers. Kobe couldn't win a championship with Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony.

So is Lebron off the team as well? You mean you want to put Kobe in a spot that Wade has not been in, and then compare them? Why is Joel Anthony playing for Kobe's Heat and not Big Z? I think Kobe would appreciate that 7'3 body and great outlet of a jumpshooter. I kind of like the front court of Big Z, Chris Bosh, and Lebron James. I think Kobe might find a way to make that work. I think that Bosh would toughen up. Heck, Pau came to the Lakers as soft as a pillow filled with marshmellos. Now he has people calling him the best big in the game, and the Lakers and league MVP. Just think what Kobe could do for a player that was better on his former team than the one that Kobe has played with for the past 3 years.

Or we could have it the way you want it and just start Anthony, Bosh, D league small forward, Kobe, and for the heck of it, we'll bring back Smush Parker. Then lets see what Kobe could do. Right? That jerk aint winning crap with that team so he aint so great. :nod:

Pau Gasol was outplayed by Chris Bosh last year. Andrew Bynum hurt the Lakers more than he helped in the playoffs. So it was Lamar and Pau, with no real bench big. This year, its just Pau and Lamar while Bynum is out. But Derick Caracter is coming off the bench. Who? I know right. Is that the best front court in the league? I would think the Celtics would have something to say about that.

B.JenningsMVP
11-29-2010, 01:24 AM
Chris Mihm could have been a top 5 center had foot injuries stopped him.. Him and Kobe was like Pau and Kobe is now minues the softness of pau and ugliness
I think he would've been one the all time great laker big men

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:31 AM
Chris Mihm could have been a top 5 center had foot injuries stopped him.. Him and Kobe was like Pau and Kobe is now minues the softness of pau and ugliness
I think he would've been one the all time great laker big men

Now your going way too far lol. Kobe is a good basketball player, I did not say he was God

mgeise
11-29-2010, 01:33 AM
Its because guards make the game easier for bigs. The guards are the ones who have to have the talent to slash to the basket, draw the opposing big to help, and dump it off to the big man on your team for the 100% sure dunk or layup. Or even if the guard goes up for the layup and misses, most likely the other big is out of position for the rebound giving your big a chance for an easy rebound and put back. He gets twice the production off another players creativity.

Both feed off of each other, but an elite big man is so much more important to a team's success than an elite guard. You can build a team around a big man, with shooters and a ball handler (or more than one). The same can't be done around an elite wing. Look at Dwyane Wade trying to win without a great big man, or LeBron trying to do it, or Kobe trying to do it without Gasol or Shaq. A post presence in this league, especially with those guys becoming increasingly rare, has more impact on the other four positions than a wing player.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:35 AM
Chris Mihm could have been a top 5 center had foot injuries stopped him.. Him and Kobe was like Pau and Kobe is now minues the softness of pau and ugliness
I think he would've been one the all time great laker big men


Now your going way too far lol. Kobe is a good basketball player, I did not say he was God

Nevermind, I just saw in another thread you said you were smoking weed. You better ask what the dope man gave you cause right now you're trippin

mgeise
11-29-2010, 01:37 AM
Chris Mihm could have been a top 5 center had foot injuries stopped him.. Him and Kobe was like Pau and Kobe is now minues the softness of pau and ugliness
I think he would've been one the all time great laker big men

:rolleyes:

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:39 AM
Both feed off of each other, but an elite big man is so much more important to a team's success than an elite guard. You can build a team around a big man, with shooters and a ball handler (or more than one). The same can't be done around an elite wing. Look at Dwyane Wade trying to win without a great big man, or LeBron trying to do it, or Kobe trying to do it without Gasol or Shaq. A post presence in this league, especially with those guys becoming increasingly rare, has more impact on the other four positions than a wing player.

Right, cause Dwight Howard is racking up so many rings. Has he not been considered the best center in the league? Does he not change the game on the boards, blocks, and defensive side of the ball? If it was just about blocking shot, grabbing rebounds and shooting at a high%, then the Magic and the Rockets would have multiple rings right now. You know what Yao and Dwight might have needed? Some elite guards to make the game easier on them.

I stand by my reasoning. I have seen more elite guards win a championship without any type of dominating big man, than I have seen dominating big men win without a great back court player, Sans Hakeem for one of his two titles.

Geargo Wallace
11-29-2010, 01:40 AM
So is Lebron off the team as well? You mean you want to put Kobe in a spot that Wade has not been in, and then compare them? Why is Joel Anthony playing for Kobe's Heat and not Big Z? I think Kobe would appreciate that 7'3 body and great outlet of a jumpshooter. I kind of like the front court of Big Z, Chris Bosh, and Lebron James. I think Kobe might find a way to make that work. I think that Bosh would toughen up. Heck, Pau came to the Lakers as soft as a pillow filled with marshmellos. Now he has people calling him the best big in the game, and the Lakers and league MVP. Just think what Kobe could do for a player that was better on his former team than the one that Kobe has played with for the past 3 years.

Or we could have it the way you want it and just start Anthony, Bosh, D league small forward, Kobe, and for the heck of it, we'll bring back Smush Parker. Then lets see what Kobe could do. Right? That jerk aint winning crap with that team so he aint so great. :nod:

Pau Gasol was outplayed by Chris Bosh last year. Andrew Bynum hurt the Lakers more than he helped in the playoffs. So it was Lamar and Pau, with no real bench big. This year, its just Pau and Lamar while Bynum is out. But Derick Caracter is coming off the bench. Who? I know right. Is that the best front court in the league? I would think the Celtics would have something to say about that.

lol @ Big Z. Yes Pau is not soft anymore because of Kobe. How could I forget? And Andrew Bynum is a real slouch. You guys couldn't win 3 years ago without him but whatever. I think the best Lakers team of the decade was the one's with Kwame and Mihm. They were imposing in your first round exit. But at least the SG got his 34 points and looked cool.

and yes the Celtics do have the most imposing front court in the league. They'd easily have the last 3 ships if injuries to their front court didn't happen (KG, Perk). Regardless though, guards can do all the dancing they want but championships are usually won with the big guys down low.

Geargo Wallace
11-29-2010, 01:44 AM
Right, cause Dwight Howard is racking up so many rings. Has he not been considered the best center in the league? Does he not change the game on the boards, blocks, and defensive side of the ball? If it was just about blocking shot, grabbing rebounds and shooting at a high%, then the Magic and the Rockets would have multiple rings right now. You know what Yao and Dwight might have needed? Some elite guards to make the game easier on them.

I stand by my reasoning. I have seen more elite guards win a championship without any type of dominating big man, than I have seen dominating big men win without a great back court player, Sans Hakeem for one of his two titles.

I forgot that more than one team could win it every year. I also forgot that Dwight had the best offensive post game in the league. I even forgot that the Magic are one of the worst teams in the league and aren't considered title contenders for the last few years.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 01:48 AM
lol @ Big Z. Yes Pau is not soft anymore because of Kobe. How could I forget? And Andrew Bynum is a real slouch. You guys couldn't win 3 years ago without him but whatever. I think the best Lakers team of the decade was the one's with Kwame and Mihm. They were imposing in your first round exit. But at least the SG got his 34 points and looked cool.

and yes the Celtics do have the most imposing front court in the league. They'd easily have the last 3 ships if injuries to their front court didn't happen (KG, Perk). Regardless though, guards can do all the dancing they want but championships are usually won with the big guys down low.

Let me ask you this. Why has'nt Dwight won anything? Why is there a thread about the Magic, and the possiblility of CP3 going to them have posters saying " if that happens, its over" Cant a dominating big do it all by himself?

I also love what Shaq and Gasol were doing before playing with an elite guard. Shaq had so much bling those first 8 years in the league. And Gasol had so much Bling before he played with Kobe, I dont even know why he joined the Lakers, he already had everything he ever needed.

Hellcrooner
11-29-2010, 01:58 AM
How many flashy dunks ending with some breakdance in the floor and trashtalking to the rival have you seen from Dirk Pau or Tim?
How many Rap songs by them?
How many incidents with the police?

Nah they are sooooooooo difficult to market.......i mean who wants to be a good boy?

ink
11-29-2010, 01:58 AM
Does this have to turn into a "which is more important: wing or big"?

Seems like a waste of a thread. And I don't think it was the intention of the OP.

Hellcrooner
11-29-2010, 02:00 AM
Let me ask you this. Why has'nt Dwight won anything? Why is there a thread about the Magic, and the possiblility of CP3 going to them have posters saying " if that happens, its over" Cant a dominating big do it all by himself?

I also love what Shaq and Gasol were doing before playing with an elite guard. Shaq had so much bling those first 8 years in the league. And Gasol had so much Bling before he played with Kobe, I dont even know why he joined the Lakers, he already had everything he ever needed.

Pâu played with 0 allstars in his teams, make it 0 starters nowdays.
Shaq before Kobe? he was leading his team to the playoffs every year including a finals on his third year in the league, where he simply got trashed by a Greater Player than he ever came to be.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 02:02 AM
I forgot that more than one team could win it every year. I also forgot that Dwight had the best offensive post game in the league. I even forgot that the Magic are one of the worst teams in the league and aren't considered title contenders for the last few years.

So a good offensive post game is all you need? What happend to Pau before the Lakers? How about Al Jefferson? How about Chris Kamen? How about KG in Minny? How about Yao? You know what all those players are missing? A great guard.

You know what might have put the Magic over the top and made them real contenders instead of pretenders? A great guard.

If being considered a contender is all you want, Lebron could give you that. He had no big man worth speaking of and had his team considered contenders. So what Dwight did as a big man with more help than Lebron does not impress me. But even when Dwight got them to the finals, and played pretty well his team was beat. By who? A team with you guessed it, a great guard.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 02:10 AM
Pâu played with 0 allstars in his teams, make it 0 starters nowdays.
Is Battier not starting anymore? Anyways, Im not saying Pau is a bad player, he is great, but you know what he was missing in Memphis? A great guard. If he had an all star guard, he would have enjoyed the same success in Memphis as he has in LA. Thats my point.


Shaq before Kobe? he was leading his team to the playoffs every year including a finals on his third year in the league, where he simply got trashed by a Greater Player than he ever came to be.

Is leading a team to the playoffs the bench mark now a days? Im talking about winning championships. Shaq did not win one until some guy named Bryant stepped up his game and became a great player. How about Wilt? Did he win tons of rings with all of his gaudy stats? NO. Did he win one with Jerry West? Yes. How about Kareem? Did he win with Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson? Yes! Did he win without them? NO! That is my point.

Geargo Wallace
11-29-2010, 02:10 AM
Let me ask you this. Why has'nt Dwight won anything? Why is there a thread about the Magic, and the possiblility of CP3 going to them have posters saying " if that happens, its over" Cant a dominating big do it all by himself?

I also love what Shaq and Gasol were doing before playing with an elite guard. Shaq had so much bling those first 8 years in the league. And Gasol had so much Bling before he played with Kobe, I dont even know why he joined the Lakers, he already had everything he ever needed.

The Magic have been contending the last 2 years and are contending this year too. I don't understand how you fully ignore the fact that the Magic were in the finals 2 seasons ago. What did they try to do to fix their team? Add Bass and resigned Gortat at a deep cost. Because for a team to be successful, they NEED bigs.

The main teams that are in the championship talk the last 3 years have been the Magic, Celtics, and Lakers. All 3 of them have some of the best post presences in the league.

Pau was leading his team into the playoffs year after year with little help. Shaq went to the finals. Nothing to be upset about. What did Kobe do without his big guys? Oh he whined, padded his stats, didn't make the playoffs, got eliminated in the first round after his team choked horribly against the Suns, then got whooped again by the Suns the following year. Is it his fault? Nope. The team didn't have a post presence or good enough size and depth. Well maybe it is his fault cuz they were doing just fine with Shaq down there.

Raph12
11-29-2010, 02:11 AM
So a good offensive post game is all you need? What happend to Pau before the Lakers? How about Al Jefferson? How about Chris Kamen? How about KG in Minny? How about Yao? You know what all those players are missing? A great guard.

You know what might have put the Magic over the top and made them real contenders instead of pretenders? A great guard.

If being considered a contender is all you want, Lebron could give you that. He had no big man worth speaking of and had his team considered contenders. So what Dwight did as a big man with more help than Lebron does not impress me. But even when Dwight got them to the finals, and played pretty well his team was beat. By who? A team with you guessed it, a great guard.

What did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?

What did Pierce do before KG?

What did Wade do before or after Shaq?

They go hand-in-hand, both are extremely necessary and if you do not have a superstar guard/big paired with an allstar guard/big, you can forget about winning... To say it's all about a "great guard" is ignorant.

PrettyBoyJ
11-29-2010, 02:17 AM
Tim Duncan plays in San Antonio one of the smallest markets in the league.. While Kobe plays in L.A. the 2nd highest in the country.. and Lebron is jus Lebron.. anywhere he goes cameras follow...

abe_froman
11-29-2010, 02:18 AM
What did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?

What did Pierce do before KG?

What did Wade do before or after Shaq?

They go hand-in-hand, both are extremely necessary and if you do not have a superstar guard/big paired with an allstar guard/big, you can forget about winning... To say it's all about a "great guard" is ignorant.

this right here

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 02:29 AM
The Magic have been contending the last 2 years and are contending this year too. I don't understand how you fully ignore the fact that the Magic were in the finals 2 seasons ago. What did they try to do to fix their team? Add Bass and resigned Gortat at a deep cost. Because for a team to be successful, they NEED bigs.

They have been a good team. Jameer Nelson, Vince Carter and Rashaad Lewis have a lot to do with that as well. But you know who would put them over the top? Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, CP3, Williams.


The main teams that are in the championship talk the last 3 years have been the Magic, Celtics, and Lakers. All 3 of them have some of the best post presences in the league.

Were the Cavs not considered contenders? And the Celtics and the Lakers have guys named Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo. The Lakers have a guy named Kobe Bryant. All great perimeter players. Lets not try and gloss over those guys and act like they dont make the teams contenders as well. The Magic have Nelson and Carter. Were the Nuggets not considered contenders with Anthony? How about this year for the Thunder with Durant and Westbrook?


Pau was leading his team into the playoffs year after year with little help.
I like this one the best. You say he was leading his team into the playoffs with no help. Was Kobe not doing that? Then you go on to say that Kobe's teams chocked and got beat in the first round. But mention nothing about Pau's team getting swept 3 years in a row. HAHA. 0-12 is better than 4-8 I guess.


Shaq went to the finals. Nothing to be upset about. What did Kobe do without his big guys? Oh he whined, padded his stats, didn't make the playoffs, got eliminated in the first round after his team choked horribly against the Suns, then got whooped again by the Suns the following year. Is it his fault? Nope. The team didn't have a post presence or good enough size and depth. Well maybe it is his fault cuz they were doing just fine with Shaq down there.

Shaqs team went to the finals with a guy named Penny Hardaway. Remember him? At that time, he was one of the better guards in the league. Also, I would say that Kobe and the Lakers are doing just fine now. Maybe Kobe and Jerry Buss were right to trade Shaq while we could get some value out of him. He may have been good for 2 more years but then what? We would have his huge salary on the books and not be able to sign any other players. No Gasol, no Bynum, no Odom, no Artest. So if it was Kobe's fault Shaq was traded, then thats one more reason to love him.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 02:34 AM
What did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol?

What did Pierce do before KG?

What did Wade do before or after Shaq?

They go hand-in-hand, both are extremely necessary and if you do not have a superstar guard/big paired with an allstar guard/big, you can forget about winning... To say it's all about a "great guard" is ignorant.

What did Shaq do without Kobe and Wade?

What did KG do before Pierce, Allen and Rondo?

What did Gasol do without Kobe?

What did Luke Longley, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant do without Jordan?

What did Lambeer do without Thomas and Dumars?

What did Kareem win without Magic or Oscar Robertson?

Yes, they go hand and hand. But like I have said, more guards have won a title without a great big man, than big men have won without great guards. So no, you dont need both as Rick Barry, Jordan, Thomas/Dumars, Billups/Hamilton have proved. Does it make it easier and more likely? Yes, but not a necessity.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-29-2010, 02:39 AM
Well its been fun boys. Its getting late and I have to wake up at 4:00am for work. So like Lebron, Im taking my talents elsewhere. Gnite.

Byronicle
11-29-2010, 03:14 AM
Barkley is retired and yet he still made some Burget King commercials...I wonder why ;)

Raph12
11-29-2010, 03:24 AM
What did Shaq do without Kobe and Wade?

What did KG do before Pierce, Allen and Rondo?

What did Gasol do without Kobe?

What did Luke Longley, Bill Cartwright, Horace Grant do without Jordan?

What did Lambeer do without Thomas and Dumars?

What did Kareem win without Magic or Oscar Robertson?

Yes, they go hand and hand. But like I have said, more guards have won a title without a great big man, than big men have won without great guards. So no, you dont need both as Rick Barry, Jordan, Thomas/Dumars, Billups/Hamilton have proved. Does it make it easier and more likely? Yes, but not a necessity.

So we're playing this game? Let me ask you this, how many teams won a ring with a big as their best player? And now go look at how many teams won a ring with a guard as their best player?...

Duncan/Robinson (twice), Wes Unseld ('79), Walton/Lucas ('77), Reed ('70), Petit ('58), Schayes ('55), Mikan (5 times), Risen ('51), Simmons ('48) and Fulks ('47) have all won without great guards, but again this is a rare occurance in today's era.

Guards who won without great big men were fewer, Thomas/Dumars had Laimbeer, while Billups/Hamilton had Sheed and Ben, only Rick Barry and Jordan/Pippen won without great bigs.

In today's league you need a superstar guard/big paired with an allstar guard/big and solid role players (ie Lakers/Heat in 06); or you need a great team with multiple allstars (ie Boston in 08/Pistons in 04).