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View Full Version : Is Rajon Rondo the new Jason Kidd?



HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 04:25 AM
I can't think of a better player to compare Rondo too, but I don't think Rondo's defense is anywhere near as good as Kidd's was in his prime because Kidd could check both 1's and 2's. I've seen Kidd play good defense against Kobe before. Still, I can't deny that Rondo is probably the best pg defender today so it's not a bad comparison. Is Rondo the new Kidd on the block?

Discuss.

tromo9
11-27-2010, 04:30 AM
rondos too dark

asandhu23
11-27-2010, 04:31 AM
no

DoJoTheSlasher
11-27-2010, 04:32 AM
Yeah but he will never be as good a player as Kidd was. Kidd is in the top 5 of assists, steals, 3 pters made of all time.

LakersMaster24
11-27-2010, 04:38 AM
Yeah but he will never be as good a player as Kidd was. Kidd is in the top 5 of assists, steals, 3 pters made of all time.

Your forgetting how young and talented Rondo is...I think he has a really good shot on being in the top 5 for assists and steals :)

Raph12
11-27-2010, 04:44 AM
Kidd was a triple-double machine, with that being said, Rondo's a better off-ball defender... Similar, but not the "new Jason Kidd" he's more like the first "Rajon Rondo"

seikou8
11-27-2010, 04:46 AM
maybe

redsox0717
11-27-2010, 04:46 AM
Kidd is a great player, but look at his FG% compared to Rondo...it's not even close. Their defense and rebounding ability are very comparable though.

Everyone looks at Kidd like he is such a great shooter compared to Rondo, when in fact Kidd was never that good of a shooter, just like Rondo. Rondo's ability to penetrate for high percentage shots is much better than Kidd's ever was, hence the higher FG %

NJBASEBALL22
11-27-2010, 04:51 AM
Yeah but he will never be as good a player as Kidd was. Kidd is in the top 5 of assists, steals, 3 pters made of all time.

I think he was referring to a young Jason Kidd, who couldn't shoot worth a lick. There was a reason they called him Ason, because he didn't have a J. Much like Rondo. Don't kid yourself with top 5 in 3's made, because even though it is an accomplishment, it isn't that huge of a deal for a few reasons. A) He was never considered a 3 point threat or a good shooter. B) Until the 07/08 season, he wasn't a good percentage shooter (but good for him to be able to adapt his style). C) Longevity has more to do with it at this point then skill. D) The 3 point line is a relatively new concept. Yes it was created in 1980 but it wasn't really utilized like it is today until the late, late 1980's, which coincides perfectly with Kidd's career.

No doubt, his is a great comparison.

AI4MVP
11-27-2010, 04:53 AM
i guess he can have that title until rubio comes over next year

kArSoN RyDaH
11-27-2010, 04:53 AM
i like the FIRST RAJON RONDO type of thing. he really is a new breed.

sargon21
11-27-2010, 04:56 AM
^ rondo's not his own breed, jkidd is a decent comparison

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 05:02 AM
Rondo is very similar. Kidd wasn't a good shooter his first few years in the league but now he's #5 all time in 3 point field goals made. That was really surprising to me when I saw the list. They are both great rebounders, great passers, Kidd is a better shooter, Rondo is quicker and a better defender. He could very well be the next Jason Kidd though. The closest thing your ever going to have to Jason Kidd I would say.

jmtapia
11-27-2010, 05:05 AM
i wonder how Rondo's game will evolve once all the vets start to retire. He needs to drastically improve his outside shooting and FT%... like kidd.

5ass
11-27-2010, 05:06 AM
Yes, but sometimes no...

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 05:07 AM
Kidd is a great player, but look at his FG% compared to Rondo...it's not even close. Their defense and rebounding ability are very comparable though.

Everyone looks at Kidd like he is such a great shooter compared to Rondo, when in fact Kidd was never that good of a shooter, just like Rondo. Rondo's ability to penetrate for high percentage shots is much better than Kidd's ever was, hence the higher FG %

I know. Kidd never was a great shooter at all and he's #5 all time on the 3 point FG's made list. I would have never guessed that. I didn't believe it til I saw the list. Teams doubled off him and left him open a lot like they do to Rondo and he just shot a lot of 3's. He missed a lot too because his FG% is terrible but, he has gotten better later in his career. Kidd is in my top 5 PG's all time list. Rondo is similar but like that guy said Rondo is more like the first Rajon Rondo rather than the next Jason Kidd.

jmtapia
11-27-2010, 05:09 AM
^^i doubt people would say that if it wasnt for his very fast start this season... in particular his crazy ast #s

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 05:19 AM
^^i doubt people would say that if it wasnt for his very fast start this season... in particular his crazy ast #s

No people compared his game to Jason Kidd's since he was a rookie and a 2nd year player. I think there are similarities but differences too. Jason Kidd is one in a million and Rajon Rondo is one in a million.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 05:22 AM
Kidd was a triple-double machine, with that being said, Rondo's a better on-ball defender... Similar, but not the "new Jason Kidd" he's more like the first "Rajon Rondo"

Whoa, what? What have you been watching? Rondo is no where near the on ball defender Kidd was, Rondo is more of an off the ball defender and barely even tries to play lock down defense. Even when he plays on the ball defense he lets the player drive past while trying to go for the steal by reaching from behind. Jason Kidd is one of the best lock down defenders to ever play the PG position, the only PG who did a better job at checking SG's was Payton. You are so wrong man.

jmtapia
11-27-2010, 05:24 AM
No people compared his game to Jason Kidd's since he was a rookie and a 2nd year player. I think there are similarities but differences too. Jason Kidd is one in a million and Rajon Rondo is one in a million.

umm... thats news to me but

there are certainly similarities and like anything..... anything could happen and Rondo could turn himself into a great shooter.

Raph12
11-27-2010, 05:42 AM
Whoa, what? What have you been watching? Rondo is no where near the on ball defender Kidd was, Rondo is more of an off the ball defender and barely even tries to play lock down defense. Even when he plays on the ball defense he lets the player drive past while trying to go for the steal by reaching from behind. Jason Kidd is one of the best lock down defenders to ever play the PG position, the only PG who did a better job at checking SG's was Payton. You are so wrong man.

FIXED: LMAO! I meant "off-ball", thanks again for the heads up lol.

NJBASEBALL22
11-27-2010, 06:00 AM
Its a fair comparison if you are talking about a young Kidd. Both were shaky shooters, elite defenders, and fantastic passers and rebounders (as a guard). However, I still think Kidd was a better in his prime. When you talk about Jason Kidd, you need to think of the teammates he had. He never had any good teammates. Better teammates mean more assists, better shooting percentage (because the D has to play off you more), and it always you to cheat more on defense (just like Rondo does). So it is a good comparison, not a perfect one, but then again, you will never have a perfect comparison.

Both excellent rebounders but I think Rondo is a little better, if you ever watched any Nets games, they gave Kidd ever easy defensive board- his bigs would literally step to the side if he called for it. Kidd was probably a better creator because he had much, much, much less to work with (even though Rondo is getting great and can over take him, if there is a way to even tell). Kidd was better defensively. Rondo cheats a lot on D and forces a lot of turnovers because he plays with excellent big men and a great team defense. Rondo has a better shooting percentage but I am not convinced he is that much better than Kidd, Kidd took more shoots and played in a tougher era, Rondo takes a lot of high-percentage shots and a very small amount of low-percentage shots. Rondo knows his limits in the shooting aspect of the game, whereas Kidd had to be both a scorer and playmaker and push his limits.

There skills and game is very comparable, a little different but not much.

Run&Gun
11-27-2010, 06:30 AM
Jason Kidd is probably the only comparison you can really look at right now, both are one of the few true point guards left in the NBA. They get their assist very differently though.

I think Kidd has better passing ability even when he was younger, could either give penetrate and dish, give it to the trailing man in the corner, or give alley oops. Kidd I also think was never as fast as Rondo or quite as crafty with layups as he was. Of course Kidd is bigger and has some post moves compared to Rondo, Kidd has size comparable to D-Will and can just muscle his way in the paint. Probably a better defender mostly cuz. he's bigger and stronger.

Rondo gets more assist from driving and dishing and finding the trailing man. Never gets alley-oops but then again who would he dish it to? I don't think Rondo knows how to or can outlet passes very well yet, but he's always the fastest guy on the court so never really had to develop that skill. He's a very elusive player and his huge hands allow him to do those creative layups and finishes.

Regardless both are great PG's with a knack to get steals, assist rebounds and play defense. Game changers without adding the all to overrated stats points per game.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 06:46 AM
FIXED: LMAO! I meant "off-ball", thanks again for the heads up lol.

Oh ok, I should have guessed that's what you meant. It just seems like a lot of people don't realize how good of a defender Kidd really was, every team he joined improved defensively and every team he left got worse defensively. That's not a coincidence, just letting everybody know (especially Mc Lovin). For example, when Kidd joined the Nets they went from 23rd in defense to 1st straight off the bat. Kidd is a big reason why that happened.

p.s. Kidd was a very smart off the ball defender, so I'm not sure Rondo is even better in that concept either.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 06:48 AM
:facepalm:
Rondo is very similar. Kidd wasn't a good shooter his first few years in the league but now he's #5 all time in 3 point field goals made. That was really surprising to me when I saw the list. They are both great rebounders, great passers, Kidd is a better shooter, Rondo is quicker and a better defender. He could very well be the next Jason Kidd though. The closest thing your ever going to have to Jason Kidd I would say.

smh :facepalm:

TheDiggler
11-27-2010, 07:30 AM
No /thread.

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 07:35 AM
umm... thats news to me but

there are certainly similarities and like anything..... anything could happen and Rondo could turn himself into a great shooter.

Kidd turned himself into a very good shooter and a Rondo already has a much better FG% than Kidd did his first 5 years in the league.

NotoriousREG
11-27-2010, 07:43 AM
You don't think Gary Payton would be more accurate comparison? If only from the standpoint of neither Payton nor Rondo entered the league with the type of hype and expectations that Kidd had yet each one (Rondo & GP) worked himself into being one of the premier PGs in the league.

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 07:46 AM
:facepalm:

smh :facepalm:

:down:
Rondo is a much better on ball defender than Kidd was when he was in his prime. Rondo is a lot quicker than Kidd ever was and can stay in front of his man better. Kidd was a very good defender but Rondo is a great defender. Rondo is a great team defender too. He'll have more NBA All Defensive 1st Team awards then Kidd when he retires. He'll probably win it every year from now until the foreseeable future. Rondo is just so much quicker and more athletic. I love Jason Kidd too. He was easily my favorite PG of my time and I have him top 5 all time.

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 07:50 AM
You don't think Gary Payton would be more accurate comparison? If only from the standpoint of neither Payton nor Rondo entered the league with the type of hype and expectations that Kidd had yet each one (Rondo & GP) worked himself into being one of the premier PGs in the league.

Rondo is more like Payton defensively but when it comes to rebounding and passing he's more like Kidd. Rondo is Rondo. Jason Kidd and Gary Payton are Jason Kidd and Gary Payton. They were both unique talents and there really isn't anyone that should be compared to them and Rajon Rondo is Rajon Rondo. He's a very unique talent too. He gets rebounds like Jason Kidd but he's 4 inches smaller. Rajon Rondo is a rare and special type talent just like Kidd and Payton were.

NJBASEBALL22
11-27-2010, 08:19 AM
Kidd turned himself into a very good shooter and a Rondo already has a much better FG% than Kidd did his first 5 years in the league.



Rondo is a much better on ball defender than Kidd was when he was in his prime. Rondo is a lot quicker than Kidd ever was and can stay in front of his man better. Kidd was a very good defender but Rondo is a great defender. Rondo is a great team defender too. He'll have more NBA All Defensive 1st Team awards then Kidd when he retires. He'll probably win it every year from now until the foreseeable future. Rondo is just so much quicker and more athletic. I love Jason Kidd too. He was easily my favorite PG of my time and I have him top 5 all time.

You are not looking at things as they are though. FG% is not the most accurate way to judge players. There really isn't a way to judge them aside from watching them play. Rondo has been primarily a driving PG so far on a good team. The good team part is important, it makes everything easier. Meaning his man drifts off to help with KG or Shaq in the post and he isn't getting doubled because of Allen's and Pierce's ability to knock down shots. Kidd (in his prime, since that's what we are talking about) played with.... Vince Carter (a little after his prime but still effective), 22 year old Shawn Marion, and Clifford Robinson. Never a great cast. So what does this mean? It means, Rondo gets better looks and doesn't need to shoot for his team to be successful. Kidd had to take control with the other team focusing on him. I think Kidd's passing might have been the better than Rondo's by a decent amount. Kidd had a great amount of passing types, Rondo's primary all come from penetrating, Kidd could pick you apart from the outside too.

Kidd played in a tougher era, no hand check rules and you couldn't drive the paint without getting hammered. Another reason is FG% is a lower. I am not saying Kidd was a better shooter, but outside of the paint, Rondo and Kidd are very comparable shooters. They are both poor shooters from outside of 15 feet.

Kidd did turn himself into a good shooter but it helps having Dirk on the floor and playing in an offense that isn't oriented around Kidd having the ball in his hand 95% of the time- which in his prime he was handling the ball 90% of the time, shooting off the dribble was never and is still not Kidd's strong point. Notice most of his 3's are wide open on ball reverses. Good for him though for capitalizing on the new environment. Its not unreasonable to think Rondo might develop some form of shot though.

Defensively, Rondo isn't nearly good as Kidd. Kidd played with weak defenses. His teams were effective because he shut the opposing guard down. If Kidd's guy got into the paint, it was bad news, none of his teams had a shot blocker to help in the paint. Kidd was great on ball and very good off ball. Rondo has the luxury of being able to "cheat" and reach for the steal knowing that KG and Shaq and Perkins are playing behind him. Rondo is good defensively and deserves 1st all defenses but he never had to play in the same era as Payton. Kidd is probably the 4th best defensive PG ever behind Frazier, Glove, Isiah. That is elite, Rondo is very good, not elite yet- see how he does in a few years when Shaq and KG are gone or broken- his steals will go down as he stops cheating for the steals. A good team defense hides the holes in has, and a good defense starts with owning and protecting the paint.

NJBASEBALL22
11-27-2010, 08:22 AM
Rondo is more like Payton defensively but when it comes to rebounding and passing he's more like Kidd. Rondo is Rondo. Jason Kidd and Gary Payton are Jason Kidd and Gary Payton. They were both unique talents and there really isn't anyone that should be compared to them and Rajon Rondo is Rajon Rondo. He's a very unique talent too. He gets rebounds like Jason Kidd but he's 4 inches smaller. Rajon Rondo is a rare and special type talent just like Kidd and Payton were.

Of course they are different but they are comparable. As you confirmed by saying the bolded.

The ability to do everything- rebound, pass, d, get to the rim. That is what is comparable. Payton is probably the most comparable to Kidd (well until this Kidd named Rondo came around).

MDD
11-27-2010, 09:13 AM
people seem to forget Kidd was a top scorer on his team avg. about 18pts and he did not have hall of fame players to pass to who allready knew how to score , everybody keep saying how great he is but if the celtics dont win he will not be highly blame for it that would be for paul,ray and kevin so my point is Kidd was the evident top star on his teams.

JasonJohnHorn
11-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Yeah but he will never be as good a player as Kidd was. Kidd is in the top 5 of assists, steals, 3 pters made of all time.

Kidd is on those lists because he's been playing for 15 years. Rondo has only been playing for a very short time.

Rondo is dishing out almost 15 assists a game right now. Last year he lead the league in steals, and may very well do that again this year (or at least rank high among the league leaders). Kidds highest assists-per was 10 and change, almost five assists less than what Rondo is dishing out this year. And Kidd has never lead the league in steals as Rondo has, nor has he ever averaged as many as 2.5 a game, as Rondo is this year.

as for shooting... Kidd is clearly the better shooter beyond the arc, but on their careers Rondo has a better TS%, and is shooting a much higher percentage than Kidd was at the same point in his career.

As for rebounding, Rondo can work the boards when he needs to and can rebound as well as Kidd, even if his per-game stats are as impressive as Kidds. Kidd has had to traditionally work the glass because he has been on weak rebounding teams (and he used to put up a lot more bricks himself, so that gave him more rebounding opprotunties ;-) jk). Rondo has guys like Garnett in the front court working the glass. He picks up the slack when it is required of him, but he also knows enough to trust his teammates in the front court to clear the glass so he can get ahead on potential fast breaks from their outlet passes.

Rondo is on pace to be put in the coversation with Magic, Stockton and Thomas as the only point guards to post 1000+ assists in a season, something Kidd never came close to doing.

If I were starting a franchise, and had a choice between kidd at 24 and Rondo at 24... I'm taking Rondo without even flinching.

Assman22
11-27-2010, 09:58 AM
I'd like to see Rajon Rondo play without 3 future HOF's (4 this season) before comparing him to anyone with the stature of Jason Kidd. Deron Williams is much closer in comparison to Kidd than anyone currently in the league imo.

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 11:16 AM
I would have loved to have seen this comparison had Kidd grown up with 3 hall of famers around him. As good as Rondo is, Kidd is a top 5 PG of all time when all said and done. Shoot, I watched his old butt checking Manu last night.
The comparison seems logical because both were horrid shooters to begin their NBA careers. But Kidd was all world defensively, and was simply one of the best passers of all time.

Byronicle
11-27-2010, 11:35 AM
nope

Rondo is too nasty

Dee Boone
11-27-2010, 11:37 AM
OH NO...rondo has talent and may be there some day but until he learn how to shoot from all area's of the court he wont quite get there!

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:06 PM
Kidd was a triple-double machine, with that being said, Rondo's a better off-ball defender... Similar, but not the "new Jason Kidd" he's more like the first "Rajon Rondo"

and Rondo doesn't get a bunch of triple doubles?


Kidd is a great player, but look at his FG% compared to Rondo...it's not even close. Their defense and rebounding ability are very comparable though.

Everyone looks at Kidd like he is such a great shooter compared to Rondo, when in fact Kidd was never that good of a shooter, just like Rondo. Rondo's ability to penetrate for high percentage shots is much better than Kidd's ever was, hence the higher FG %

thank you:clap:


:down:
Rondo is a much better on ball defender than Kidd was when he was in his prime. Rondo is a lot quicker than Kidd ever was and can stay in front of his man better. Kidd was a very good defender but Rondo is a great defender. Rondo is a great team defender too. He'll have more NBA All Defensive 1st Team awards then Kidd when he retires. He'll probably win it every year from now until the foreseeable future. Rondo is just so much quicker and more athletic. I love Jason Kidd too. He was easily my favorite PG of my time and I have him top 5 all time.

^


people seem to forget Kidd was a top scorer on his team avg. about 18pts and he did not have hall of fame players to pass to who allready knew how to score , everybody keep saying how great he is but if the celtics dont win he will not be highly blame for it that would be for paul,ray and kevin so my point is Kidd was the evident top star on his teams.

he's played with prime Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and Kenyon Martin..Rondo never played with good players in their prime

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:07 PM
:down:
Rondo is a much better on ball defender than Kidd was when he was in his prime. Rondo is a lot quicker than Kidd ever was and can stay in front of his man better. Kidd was a very good defender but Rondo is a great defender. Rondo is a great team defender too. He'll have more NBA All Defensive 1st Team awards then Kidd when he retires. He'll probably win it every year from now until the foreseeable future. Rondo is just so much quicker and more athletic. I love Jason Kidd too. He was easily my favorite PG of my time and I have him top 5 all time.

Seems like you all are basing your knowledge on reputation and 1st Team honors instead of actually watching the game. Trust me, Rondo is not much of a lock down defender, his defensive reputation comes from his hustle and ability to get steals. Rondo has the speed to stay in front of his man but he doesn't do that. When it comes to defending SG's Rondo doesn't even come close to Kidd.

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 02:09 PM
and Rondo doesn't get a bunch of triple doubles?



thank you:clap:



^



he's played with prime Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and Kenyon Martin..Rondo never played with good players in their prime

are you serious? Even KG, Pierce, and Allen NOW are better than those 3 were in their prime. During their championship run, Boston's big 3 was exponentially better than Carter/Jefferson/Martin

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:12 PM
^ you really need to stop overrating the Celtics

Seems like you all are basing your knowledge on reputation and 1st Team honors instead of actually watching the game. Trust me, Rondo is not much of a lock down defender.

if you've seen Rondo play defense you'd know he's a lockdown defender ..even every coach of other teams say it and i think they know more than you

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 02:15 PM
^ you really need to stop overrating the Celtics


you really need to stop overrating Rondo. You are interesting. You completely conflict your own posts regarding Rondo. One minute you use his roster support to pump him up, the next you say that roster isn't that good.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:17 PM
You are not looking at things as they are though. FG% is not the most accurate way to judge players. There really isn't a way to judge them aside from watching them play. Rondo has been primarily a driving PG so far on a good team. The good team part is important, it makes everything easier. Meaning his man drifts off to help with KG or Shaq in the post and he isn't getting doubled because of Allen's and Pierce's ability to knock down shots. Kidd (in his prime, since that's what we are talking about) played with.... Vince Carter (a little after his prime but still effective), 22 year old Shawn Marion, and Clifford Robinson. Never a great cast. So what does this mean? It means, Rondo gets better looks and doesn't need to shoot for his team to be successful. Kidd had to take control with the other team focusing on him. I think Kidd's passing might have been the better than Rondo's by a decent amount. Kidd had a great amount of passing types, Rondo's primary all come from penetrating, Kidd could pick you apart from the outside too.

Kidd played in a tougher era, no hand check rules and you couldn't drive the paint without getting hammered. Another reason is FG% is a lower. I am not saying Kidd was a better shooter, but outside of the paint, Rondo and Kidd are very comparable shooters. They are both poor shooters from outside of 15 feet.

Kidd did turn himself into a good shooter but it helps having Dirk on the floor and playing in an offense that isn't oriented around Kidd having the ball in his hand 95% of the time- which in his prime he was handling the ball 90% of the time, shooting off the dribble was never and is still not Kidd's strong point. Notice most of his 3's are wide open on ball reverses. Good for him though for capitalizing on the new environment. Its not unreasonable to think Rondo might develop some form of shot though.

Defensively, Rondo isn't nearly good as Kidd. Kidd played with weak defenses. His teams were effective because he shut the opposing guard down. If Kidd's guy got into the paint, it was bad news, none of his teams had a shot blocker to help in the paint. Kidd was great on ball and very good off ball. Rondo has the luxury of being able to "cheat" and reach for the steal knowing that KG and Shaq and Perkins are playing behind him. Rondo is good defensively and deserves 1st all defenses but he never had to play in the same era as Payton. Kidd is probably the 4th best defensive PG ever behind Frazier, Glove, Isiah. That is elite, Rondo is very good, not elite yet- see how he does in a few years when Shaq and KG are gone or broken- his steals will go down as he stops cheating for the steals. A good team defense hides the holes in has, and a good defense starts with owning and protecting the paint.

Exactly right. Just one thing though, I would say Kidd was better at defending SG's than Frazier and Isiah.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:18 PM
you really need to stop overrating Rondo. You are interesting. You completely conflict your own posts regarding Rondo. One minute you use his roster support to pump him up, the next you say that roster isn't that good.

I never said his roster isn't good but c'mon you're acting like they were in their primes in 08 and beyond every time you try and discredit Rondo it's " oh he's playing with three hall of famers!!1" as if they are still young when they are clearly aging..i wish they were still in their primes because his assist would go even higher and Rondo is top 3 point guard in this league IMO ..call that overrating or w/e

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:19 PM
^ you really need to stop overrating the Celtics


if you've seen Rondo play defense you'd know he's a lockdown defender ..even every coach of other teams say it and i think they know more than you

I've seen everybody play, I actually watch games unlike some people here. Show me a link to a quote where a coach says Rondo is a lock down defender.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:21 PM
I've seen everybody play, I actually watch games unlike some people here. Show me a link to a quote where a coach says Rondo is a lock down defender.

http://www.celticstown.com/2010/07/29/coach-k-were-very-fortunate-to-have-rondo/

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:23 PM
http://www.celticstown.com/2010/07/29/coach-k-were-very-fortunate-to-have-rondo/

Did you just randomly chose a link that talks about Rondo? Where in there does it say he's a lock down defender?

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:24 PM
Did you just randomly chose a link that talks about Rondo? Where in there does it say he's a lock down defender?

he says he's a good defender and I've heard other coaches praise his defense during those interviews during and after the game im not going to the ends of the earth to search for them

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:26 PM
he says he's a good defender and I've heard other coaches praise his defense during those interviews during and after the game im not going to the ends of the earth to search for them

smh :facepalm:

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:27 PM
smh :facepalm:

my exact reaction when you said Rondo isn't a lockdown defender

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:28 PM
my exact reaction when you said Rondo isn't a lockdown defender

I don't think you even watch the games.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:28 PM
I don't think you even watch the games.

I watch all of his games :facepalm:

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:31 PM
I watch all of his games :facepalm:

You clearly don't.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:33 PM
You clearly don't.

I've been watching them since before rondo came who are you ?

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:36 PM
I've been watching them since before rondo came who are you ?

I'm someone who watches more games than you, but then again that probably describes 80% of the people here.

Sadds The Gr8
11-27-2010, 02:37 PM
yea they're pretty similar except rondo's smaller.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm someone who watches more games than you, but then again that probably describes 80% of the people here.

i highly doubt that but w/e helps you sleep at night i guess

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 02:43 PM
people seem to forget Kidd was a top scorer on his team avg. about 18pts and he did not have hall of fame players to pass to who allready knew how to score , everybody keep saying how great he is but if the celtics dont win he will not be highly blame for it that would be for paul,ray and kevin so my point is Kidd was the evident top star on his teams.

Rondo would average 18 on a bad team though and still dish out crazy assists because he is one of the only PG's in basketball that blows by his defender like nothing without even needing a pick set for him. 90% of the NBA PG's need apick set at the top of the key to get into the lane. Rondo doesn't and we he gets into the lane he draws other defenders right away so of course he would still rack up assists because when he gets into the lane there's always guys open.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:47 PM
Rondo lets his man pass him and tries to go for the steal by reaching from behind, how is that lock down defense?

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:48 PM
dude you're just spamming this thread up ..im done

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 02:50 PM
I'd like to see Rajon Rondo play without 3 future HOF's (4 this season) before comparing him to anyone with the stature of Jason Kidd. Deron Williams is much closer in comparison to Kidd than anyone currently in the league imo.

Deron Williams and Jason Kidd are nothing alike. Do you watch basketball. They play the PG position completely different from each other. Rondo would avrage more points if he didn't play for the Celtics. We all know that because we have all seen him get to the hoop at will whenever he wants to. He'd still be a great rebounder no matter where he played. He'd still be a great defender and his assists would be down a little bit from this year but he'd still average 9 or close to 10 assists a game. His court vision is incredible and he's fast enough to get into the lane at will and dish it to the open man when the lane collapses. He is what he is. He's the leader of that team. When he gets hurt they lose and don't look anything like the real Celtics. He's an all star no matter where he plays.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 02:53 PM
dude you're just spamming this thread up ..im done

The truth hurts doesn't it??? LOL

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 02:58 PM
The truth hurts doesn't it??? LOL

no there's a lot of flaws in your post especially the lame false accusations made towards me but you keep discrediting Rondo while he piles up his defensive awards:clap:

pd1dish
11-27-2010, 02:59 PM
Your forgetting how young and talented Rondo is...I think he has a really good shot on being in the top 5 for assists and steals :)

i would agree but you have to look at the team rondo is on. as soon as he came into the league, he was put with 3 future HOF players. he is definitely impressive with the way he has been able to distribute the ball and get assists at such a high rate.

itll be interesting to see how his numbers are when he doesnt have the luxury of dishing it to a dominate scorer in paul pierce, a knock down shooter in ray allen, and an automatic basket from mid range in KG (not to mention all the talent around those guys). 99% of the time, PG's assists are lower when they arent on a good team, but their points go up. i dont see rondo ever really being a great scorer, so idk if he will ever be the player jason kidd is because kidd has always been a great 3 point shooter.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 03:01 PM
no there's a lot of flaws in your post especially the lame false accusations made towards me but you keep discrediting Rondo while he piles up his defensive awards:clap:

Because awards aren't flawed right??? Stop kidding yourself LOL

Mc Lovin
11-27-2010, 03:02 PM
The truth hurts doesn't it??? LOL

No your wrong. me and Hustle watch every Celtics game and have watched ever Celtics game since Rondo was a rookie. If he's not a lockdown defender than there isn't a lockdown defending PG in the whole NBA. He's clearly the best lockdown defensive PG in the NBA. He made the All NBA Defensive 1st Team and that's voted by all the head coaches and I think they have a higher basketball IQ than you do and they wouldn't have voted for him if all he did was let guys drive by him and try to poke the ball out from behind. He does that once in awhile but if you watch every Celtics game like us you'd realize that he is the best defensive PG in the NBA by a wide margin.

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 03:09 PM
i would agree but you have to look at the team rondo is on. as soon as he came into the league, he was put with 3 future HOF players. he is definitely impressive with the way he has been able to distribute the ball and get assists at such a high rate.

itll be interesting to see how his numbers are when he doesnt have the luxury of dishing it to a dominate scorer in paul pierce, a knock down shooter in ray allen, and an automatic basket from mid range in KG (not to mention all the talent around those guys). 99% of the time, PG's assists are lower when they arent on a good team, but their points go up. i dont see rondo ever really being a great scorer, so idk if he will ever be the player jason kidd is because kidd has always been a great 3 point shooter.

Rondo played 1 season before the big 3 came. And he was beyond horrible offensively.

jr_3421
11-27-2010, 03:14 PM
You are not looking at things as they are though. FG% is not the most accurate way to judge players. There really isn't a way to judge them aside from watching them play. Rondo has been primarily a driving PG so far on a good team. The good team part is important, it makes everything easier. Meaning his man drifts off to help with KG or Shaq in the post and he isn't getting doubled because of Allen's and Pierce's ability to knock down shots. Kidd (in his prime, since that's what we are talking about) played with.... Vince Carter (a little after his prime but still effective), 22 year old Shawn Marion, and Clifford Robinson. Never a great cast. So what does this mean? It means, Rondo gets better looks and doesn't need to shoot for his team to be successful. Kidd had to take control with the other team focusing on him. I think Kidd's passing might have been the better than Rondo's by a decent amount. Kidd had a great amount of passing types, Rondo's primary all come from penetrating, Kidd could pick you apart from the outside too.

Kidd played in a tougher era, no hand check rules and you couldn't drive the paint without getting hammered. Another reason is FG% is a lower. I am not saying Kidd was a better shooter, but outside of the paint, Rondo and Kidd are very comparable shooters. They are both poor shooters from outside of 15 feet.

Kidd did turn himself into a good shooter but it helps having Dirk on the floor and playing in an offense that isn't oriented around Kidd having the ball in his hand 95% of the time- which in his prime he was handling the ball 90% of the time, shooting off the dribble was never and is still not Kidd's strong point. Notice most of his 3's are wide open on ball reverses. Good for him though for capitalizing on the new environment. Its not unreasonable to think Rondo might develop some form of shot though.

Defensively, Rondo isn't nearly good as Kidd. Kidd played with weak defenses. His teams were effective because he shut the opposing guard down. If Kidd's guy got into the paint, it was bad news, none of his teams had a shot blocker to help in the paint. Kidd was great on ball and very good off ball. Rondo has the luxury of being able to "cheat" and reach for the steal knowing that KG and Shaq and Perkins are playing behind him. Rondo is good defensively and deserves 1st all defenses but he never had to play in the same era as Payton. Kidd is probably the 4th best defensive PG ever behind Frazier, Glove, Isiah. That is elite, Rondo is very good, not elite yet- see how he does in a few years when Shaq and KG are gone or broken- his steals will go down as he stops cheating for the steals. A good team defense hides the holes in has, and a good defense starts with owning and protecting the paint.

This is an excellent point...in favor of why Rajon Rondo is a comparable defensive player to Kidd and maybe even better. The non hand-checking rules made it harder for the offense and easier for defense. Therefore yes, Kidd had it tougher on offense but he had infinitely easier on defense since hand checking makes it almost impossible to lock down PGs.

And for people who don't think Rajon Rondo is a good on ball defender need to start watching his games. Just because he gambles sometimes, doesn't automatically mean he can't keep his man in front of him. If you had such a large advantage with your length, wouldn'y you try to utilize it as best you could?

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:15 PM
Rondo played 1 season before the big 3 came. And he was beyond horrible offensively.

he played a MUCH different role then Doc Rivers didn't like him much because he couldn't shoot and he was kind of stubborn when his teammates weren't finishing his assists he'd throw a little fit but when the big three came Rondo got the start instead of being Delonte's backup and he was able to showcase his game more

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 03:19 PM
he played a MUCH different role then Doc Rivers didn't like him much because he couldn't shoot and he was kind of stubborn when his teammates weren't finishing his assists he'd throw a little fit but when the big three came Rondo got the start instead of being Delonte's backup and he was able to showcase his game more

I am aware of the circumstances. he still sucked offensively.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 03:19 PM
No your wrong. me and Hustle watch every Celtics game and have watched ever Celtics game since Rondo was a rookie. If he's not a lockdown defender than there isn't a lockdown defending PG in the whole NBA. He's clearly the best lockdown defensive PG in the NBA. He made the All NBA Defensive 1st Team and that's voted by all the head coaches and I think they have a higher basketball IQ than you do and they wouldn't have voted for him if all he did was let guys drive by him and try to poke the ball out from behind. He does that once in awhile but if you watch every Celtics game like us you'd realize that he is the best defensive PG in the NBA by a wide margin.

At least you admit he's not a lock down defender. I've never denied that Rondo is the best defensive pg in the league, but don't confuse that with lock down defense which Kidd actually played in his prime especially when defending SG's. Even at 37 years old you can put Kidd on Kobe or Roy and he would do alright, but put Rondo on an elite SG and he would get lit up. Yes, size has something to do with that, but it's also because Rondo doesn't really move laterally like typical lock down defenders do.

Even though Rondo is a great pg defender overall, I still wouldn't say "by a wide margin" when Cp3 is healthy. And I also wouldn't say there isn't a lock down defender in the whole NBA (although you are 90% right about that) because Kidd can still defend SG's (which he does everytime Terry is on the floor with him), and Deron Williams moves very well laterally too. If you don't watch Jazz games then I can show you with stats here, DWill vs Paul - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=willide01&p2=paulch01
Rondo vs Paul - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=rondora01&p2=paulch01
See the difference?

I just don't want people to confuse the fact that just because Rondo is a great defender overall, that doesn't mean he's a lock down defender.

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 03:20 PM
who on earth started the rant that Rondo was not a good on the ball defender? Its what kept him in the rotation early on, and he is clearly one of the better perimeter defenders in the NBA

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:23 PM
who on earth started the rant that Rondo was not a good on the ball defender? Its what kept him in the rotation early on, and he is clearly one of the better perimeter defenders in the NBA

Hakeem the Dream

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:24 PM
At least you admit he's not a lock down defender. I've never denied that Rondo is the best defensive pg in the league, but don't confuse that with lock down defense which Kidd actually played in his prime especially when defending SG's. Even at 37 years old you can put Kidd on Kobe or Roy and he would do alright, but put Rondo on an elite SG and he would get lit up. Yes, size has something to do with that, but it's also because Rondo doesn't really move laterally like typical lock down defenders do.

Even though Rondo is a great pg defender overall, I still wouldn't say "by a wide margin" when Cp3 is healthy. And I also wouldn't say there isn't a lock down defender in the whole NBA (although you are 90% right about that) because Kidd can still defend SG's (which he does everytime Terry is on the floor with him), and Deron Williams moves very well laterally too. If you don't watch Jazz games then I can show you with stats here, DWill vs Paul - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=willide01&p2=paulch01
Rondo vs Paul - http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=rondora01&p2=paulch01
See the difference?

I just don't want people to confuse the fact that just because Rondo is a great defender overall, that doesn't mean he's a lock down defender.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Hawkeye15
11-27-2010, 03:25 PM
Hakeem the Dream

ah ok. Well he clears it up a couple posts above us. I honestly thought someone was saying Rondo wasn't a good perimeter defender. :no:

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 03:30 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Maybe if you didn't cover your face like that so much you would be able to see more games.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Maybe if you didn't cover your face like that so much you would be able to see more games.

lmao, sure guy

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 03:37 PM
ah ok. Well he clears it up a couple posts above us. I honestly thought someone was saying Rondo wasn't a good perimeter defender. :no:

Nah I never said that, I just said he's the best pg defender in the league but he's not a great lock down defender. Big difference, unfortunately hustlenomics not only watches games with skewed vision but he also has trouble reading short sentences.

ManRam
11-27-2010, 03:39 PM
Why does everyone have to be the next someone?

Rondo is the next rondo. Sure, he has some similarities to kidd, but they certainly aren't completely similar. Maybe I'm in the minority, but with a player as unique as rondo, I'm in no rush to find players of old too compare him to.

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:40 PM
Nah I never said that, I just said he's the best pg defender in the league but he's not a great lock down defender. Big difference, unfortunately hustlenomics not only watches games with skewed vision but he also has trouble reading short sentences.
yet you posted stats of other point guards scoring on the Celtics to try and say Rondo wasn't that good of a defender

checkit
11-27-2010, 03:40 PM
rondo can provide lock down defense when needed. he doesn't because he love to gamble, always looking for that steal. it's great when he gets the steal but really hurts when he doesn't. it's a love/hate thing for me.

checkit
11-27-2010, 03:42 PM
Why does everyone have to be the next someone?

Rondo is the next rondo. Sure, he has some similarities to kidd, but they certainly aren't completely similar. Maybe I'm in the minority, but with a player as unique as rondo, I'm in no rush to find players of old too compare him to.

:nod:

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 03:50 PM
rondo can provide lock down defense when needed. he doesn't because he love to gamble, always looking for that steal. it's great when he gets the steal but really hurts when he doesn't. it's a love/hate thing for me.

I think it's interesting to compare pgs and see how successful those pgs were. For example, if you look at all the pass-first pgs in history (Nash, Kidd, Stockton) and all the scoring/balanced pgs (Isiah, Billups, Payton, Frazier, Cousy) you notice that the scoring pgs have more success. Magic Johnson passed alot but he could score 24ppg so I would put him in the scoring/balanced section too. The 3 pass-first pgs I mentioned all have 0 rings, but the scoring pgs I mentioned all have all won rings. Makes you think doesn't it?

Hustlenomics
11-27-2010, 03:53 PM
I think it's interesting to compare pgs and see how successful those pgs were. For example, if you look at all the pass-first pgs in history (Nash, Kidd, Stockton) and all the scoring/balanced pgs (Isiah, Billups, Payton) you notice that the scoring pgs have more success. Magic Johnson passed alot but he could score 24ppg so I would put him in the scoring/balanced section too. The 3 pass-first pgs I mentioned all have 0 rings, but the scoring pgs I mentioned all have all won rings. Makes you think doesn't it?

Rajon Rondo has no rings?..maybe you should start watching basketball
nvm you edited that quickly

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 04:00 PM
Rajon Rondo has no rings?..maybe you should start watching basketball
nvm you edited that quickly

He won a ring while being baby-sitted by the big 3. He would have won a ring as a main player and a Finals MVP to boot if only he could shoot, it's a shame he shoots better in games of HORSE than he does in NBA finals.

jackdawson
11-27-2010, 04:12 PM
Yeah but he will never be as good a player as Kidd was. Kidd is in the top 5 of assists, steals, 3 pters made of all time.

Really? Are you GOD in disguise? How can you make such a conclusion without any supernatural power?

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 04:21 PM
^Kidd showed signs of improving his shot in 3rd year in the league, he took 3 3's per game at a 37% clip. So far in Rondo's 5th year he's still shooting .6 3's per game at a 25% clip. So I wouldn't call it a Godly prediction, it's more like common sense.