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View Full Version : If Pat Riley took over Heat's coaching, would it be justified?



beasted86
11-26-2010, 12:20 PM
I usually never start Miami Heat related topics in the NBA forum, but wanted to read a couple different takes on this.

As many already know, in the 2005-06 season Pat Riley & team ownership pressured Stan Van Gundy into resigning 21 games in after an 11-10 start. Pat Riley finished the season 41-20 as head coach on way to the Heat's first championship. Some people thought SVG was a capable coach and he should have been given more time.

If given the same circumstances right now under Spoelstra, if the Heat who are currently 8-7 go on to a 11-10 record over the next 6 games (PHI, DAL, WAS, DET, CLE, ATL) would Riley be justified firing Spoelstra and taking over again?

m26555
11-26-2010, 12:25 PM
I think it would be pretty bush league given the fact that Spoelstra is only working with what Riley gave him. Miami's problem is not the head coach; it's the roster. It just was not put together very well.

ink
11-26-2010, 12:26 PM
This article in Hoopsworld addresses that point:



It's Not The Coach: The HEAT's problems can easily be blamed on head coach Erik Spoelstra, but in talking to players and people around the team, the HEAT are not struggling because of Erik Spoelstra. There is no one who thinks Spo is the problem.

The problem is the team is fundamentally flawed. They have assembled three alpha male players that are used to dominating the ball to achieve their rhythm, and when they don't, they don't know what to do with themselves.

You can say it's on the coaches to teach them, but as noted above, if the players won't accept that teaching - how does that work exactly?

HEAT guard Dwyane Wade joked after shoot around that this HEAT team wasn't the Olympics, were guys have to fit together for 10 or 11 games, and he's right.

Over the course of 82-games you have to fit together longer, which means the fit is more important than the sum of the talent.

If any of you have ever tried to work a job with a good friend, how frequently has that worked out? More times than not friends disappoint each other in the work place because work ethics and work habits don't line up the same as personal interests and friendships.

It's clear that the cohesive friendship everyone applauded this summer is a big part of the problem in Miami.

It's not the coaches. It's a fundamentally flawed roster, and unless these guys check their egos and their scoring averages at the door and just play, this is how it's going to be in Miami – underwhelming.

Dwyane Wade said it best yesterday:

"It's hard, knowing it's going to be Chris some nights and me some nights and LeBron some nights," explained Wade. "To get used to not being as involved as much on one end. We can't let that control the stamp that we put on the game."

That's exactly what's happening, and it's not about the coach, it's about the players relenting to each other and ultimately trusting in the system and that has not occurred yet and its proving to be harder than any expected.

Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18007#ixzz16PGa3VBZ

asandhu23
11-26-2010, 12:32 PM
Miami Heat thread # 323293212121210822

ink
11-26-2010, 12:34 PM
Miami Heat thread # 323293212121210822

This one is started by a Heat fan, so he obviously wants feedback. Let's keep the thread open so that people can talk about the Heat. Keep it on topic and keep it clean. Is the coach the issue in Miami?

beasted86
11-26-2010, 12:37 PM
LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR BEFORE MORE PEOPLE ANSWER THE SAME WAY:
I never asked if the coaching was the problem/issue in Miami.

Everyone and their grandma has their idea on what's wrong with the team, and what's not wrong with the team. I am asking if it would be justified.

Last time despite nearly immediately getting the team on track and winning a championship, as opposed to SVG who was coaching them to .500 record, people STILL said the coaching takeover wasn't justified.

What I want to know is if Riley bumps out Spo and similarly the team immediately gets on track, would the coaching change seem justified, or will people still say Spo just needed more time?

Hangtime
11-26-2010, 12:44 PM
I agree with the article. It doesn't matter if Riley or even Jackson himself was coaching. There are flaws and deficiencies at certain positions that need to be addressed to make them an all around great team with depth. I think these three guys can work together, and you certainly need a good coach, but they are clearly missing pieces if they want to compete with Boston and LA.

ink
11-26-2010, 12:47 PM
LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR BEFORE MORE PEOPLE ANSWER THE SAME WAY:
I never asked if the coaching was the problem/issue in Miami.

Everyone and their grandma has their idea on what's wrong with the team, and what's not wrong with the team. I am asking if it would be justified.

Last time despite nearly immediately getting the team on track and winning a championship, as opposed to SVG who was coaching them to .500 record, people STILL said the coaching takeover wasn't justified.

What I want to know is if Riley bumps out Spo and similarly the team immediately gets on track, would the coaching change seem justified, or will people still say Spo just needed more time?

Well if coaching isn't the issue then the move wouldn't be justified right?

So fundamentally it comes down to whether the coaching is the problem. It doesn't look like observers think it is. What good would Riley do, taking over a team that has three alpha males unaccustomed to doing anything except dominating the ball? They aren't complementary players so he would have the same problems any other coach would have. I could see Wade and Bosh or LBJ and Bosh, but I can't see the need for two of the league's premiere scorers in Wade and LBJ. No matter who is coaching, they are going to be in each other's way all year.

Super.
11-26-2010, 12:48 PM
I say yes. Spo should have a full offense implemented by now and the fact that he doesn't is leading to this terrible start. I'm blaming half of this on Spo. Half on the fact that there is 3 alpha male players on the same team

ink
11-26-2010, 12:50 PM
I say yes. Spo should have a full offense implemented by now and the fact that he doesn't is leading to this terrible start. I'm blaming half of this on Spo. Half on the fact that there is 3 alpha male players on the same team

What about Riley's responsibility for having created the problem in the first place by bringing the three of them together? Ironic that he created the problem and yet people consider him to be the solution. It seems that he thought they'd be so far above their competition that their skill level would compensate for a lack of cohesion.

Hunter48MVP
11-26-2010, 12:54 PM
Who cares about the Heat!

beasted86
11-26-2010, 12:59 PM
Well if coaching isn't the issue then the move wouldn't be justified right?

So fundamentally it comes down to whether the coaching is the problem. It doesn't look like observers think it is. What good would Riley do, taking over a team that has three alpha males unaccustomed to doing anything except dominating the ball? They aren't complementary players so he would have the same problems any other coach would have. I could see Wade and Bosh or LBJ and Bosh, but I can't see the need for two of the league's premiere scorers in Wade and LBJ. No matter who is coaching, they are going to be in each other's way all year.

Well this is how I see it... fundamentally...

Stan Van Gundy: 11-10
Pat Riley: 41-20

There's proof in the numbers right there whether the coaching change was justified. I think when we really get down to the fundamentals, the real basics, all that matters is win expectations. Not margin of victory, not how many wins in a row, not even wins against certain teams (playoff vs. non-playoff). All that matters is win expectations ~20 games into the season.

Based on expectations, the team is worse than last season at this exact game mark (9-6).

If Riley took over after an 11-10 start, and the team got on track and started winning games, I truly believe it would be justified (again), and (like last time) the winning streak wouldn't be happen chance or luck or a fluke or the team jelling on their own... it would be (and was) a direct result of the coaching change.

ink
11-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Well this is how I see it... fundamentally...

Stan Van Gundy: 11-10
Pat Riley: 41-20

There's proof in the numbers right there whether the coaching change was justified. I think when we really get down to the fundamentals, the real basics, all that matters is win expectations. Not margin of victory, not how many wins in a row, not even wins against certain teams. All that matters is win expectations ~20 games into the season.

Based on expectations, the team is worse than last season at this exact game mark (9-6).

If Riley took over after an 11-10 start, I truly believe it would be justified.

Riley didn't inherit a flawed lineup like this before. I'm not saying that he wouldn't do better -- I mean, how could a HOF coach like Riley not do better? But this is a tough case, and pointing the finger at Spo seems like scapegoating to me.

So it seems as though Heat fans think Spo is the problem. Good, then pull the plug and see what Riley can do.

dnewguy
11-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Who cares about the Heat!

everyone.

justinnum1
11-26-2010, 01:04 PM
Th van gundy situation was completely different. SVG lost the veterans in the locker room and shaq forced riley's hand.

The reality is without miami's 2 biggest role players, it is unfair to draw any real conclusions. This team will looks very different in a few months.

But no doubt, riley would be able to get more out of these guys than Spo.

macc
11-26-2010, 01:05 PM
Well this is how I see it... fundamentally...

Stan Van Gundy: 11-10
Pat Riley: 41-20There's proof in the numbers right there whether the coaching change was justified. I think when we really get down to the fundamentals, the real basics, all that matters is win expectations. Not margin of victory, not how many wins in a row, not even wins against certain teams (playoff vs. non-playoff). All that matters is win expectations ~20 games into the season.

Based on expectations, the team is worse than last season at this exact game mark (9-6).

If Riley took over after an 11-10 start, and the team got on track and started winning games, I truly believe it would be justified (again), and (like last time) the winning streak wouldn't be happen chance or luck or a fluke or the team jelling on their own... it would be (and was) a direct result of the coaching change.



Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Shaq only play like 3-5 games in that 11-10 record? So wouldn't COMMON SENSE tell you a Miami team w/o Shaq would prob struggle a little bit? Esp at the start of the season?

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Riley didn't inherit a flawed lineup like this before. I'm not saying that he wouldn't do better -- I mean, how could a HOF coach like Riley not do better? But this is a tough case.

So it seems as though Heat fans think Spo is the problem. Good, then pull the plug and see what Riley can do.

Like I keep trying to say and you KEEP ignoring, this topic is not necessarily about whether we think the coaching is the problem, because I think given those records from last time I just posted under both respective coaches, it HAS to be obvious that the coaching was the problem.

All I am asking is whether it would be justified. I think people really in the back of their brain actually truly believe it was just a fluke that Riley finished it out 41-20, and that SVG would have just magically pulled it back together and coached them to a 59 win season like he did the previous year. I similarly think that this time around if given the exact same situation people would still find some fault in a coaching takeover and think that Spo still wasn't given enough of a chance. I mean what is enough of a chance 20 games? 40? 50? should management really be changing coaches of a predicted playoff team past the 20-25 game mark anyway?

justinnum1
11-26-2010, 01:12 PM
It would be justified because this is rileys baby. Riley made this happen, and at the end of the day, his name is on the product. He has a responsibility to do everything in his power to give the team the best chance to win.

macc
11-26-2010, 01:13 PM
But seriously, stop using Spo as a scapegoat. As the article says on the first page, you have 3 alpha dogs clashing. People in the off season said this might be a problem but alot of people (mainly Miami fans) disagreed and thought they would come out of the gate dominating. Obviously that didn't happen.

From what I've seen with Miami is Lebron isn't playing like he normally does. He's playing tight and it's showing. Lebron can score whenever he wants to and he's holding back so Bosh and Wade can get their touches. Plus I don't understand why Bron and D Wade are settling for so many jumpers. This is the first time in their career they are playing off the ball so that could be a reason why.

Besides that Miami has no front court presense. Big Z isn't going to get it done, Anthony is the worst starter in the NBA. Maybe Dampier will help Miami, but I don't see a complete turnaround by adding him. Bosh is a finess player and doesn't add much to their front court other than scoring.

Losing Haslem was a big blow to that team. He was their only decent inside presense on defense. Granted Miller is out but even when he comes back that's still not going to help their front court at all.

I hate to say it but maybe trading Bosh for a good center and some other good players might not be the worst idea for the team.

ink
11-26-2010, 01:14 PM
Like I keep trying to say and you KEEP ignoring, this topic is not necessarily about whether we think the coaching is the problem, because I think given those records from last time I just posted under both respective coaches, it HAS to be obvious that the coaching was the problem.

All I am asking is whether it would be justified. I think people really in the back of their brain actually truly believe it was just a fluke that Riley finished it out 41-20, and that SVG would have just magically pulled it back together and coached them to a 59 win season like he did the previous year. I similarly think that this time around if given the exact same situation people would still find some fault in a coaching takeover and think that Spo still wasn't given enough of a chance. I mean what is enough of a chance 20 games? 40? 50? should management really be changing coaches of a predicted playoff team past the 20-25 game mark anyway?

Hey go easy there partner. No one is ignoring what you're saying. It's just that logic says that if you replace a coach there has to be a problem with the coach. How do you justify replacing someone who isn't the problem? The article I posted cites examples from observers who don't think it is at all. It really does seem like a case of scapegoating. But like I said, if that's what the fans want, go for it.

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Shaq only play like 3-5 games in that 11-10 record? So wouldn't COMMON SENSE tell you a Miami team w/o Shaq would prob struggle a little bit? Esp at the start of the season?

Which is exactly why this is a comparable situation with Miller + Haslem out.

I think regardless of the injuries (just like last time) both teams should be better than 11-10 through 21 games.

macc
11-26-2010, 01:17 PM
Which is exactly why this is a comparable situation with Miller + Haslem out.

I think regardless of the injuries (just like last time) both teams should be better than 11-10 through 21 games.



Whoa hold up, did you say losing Shaq (close to prime) is comparable to not having Haslem (only been out a week) and Miller? :facepalm:

Come on man.....really? You're saying the most dominant player in the NBA = 2 role players? Good luck with that one.

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:17 PM
But seriously, stop using Spo as a scapegoat. As the article says on the first page, you have 3 alpha dogs clashing. People in the off season said this might be a problem but alot of people (mainly Miami fans) disagreed and thought they would come out of the gate dominating. Obviously that didn't happen.

From what I've seen with Miami is Lebron isn't playing like he normally does. He's playing tight and it's showing. Lebron can score whenever he wants to and he's holding back so Bosh and Wade can get their touches. Plus I don't understand why Bron and D Wade are settling for so many jumpers. This is the first time in their career they are playing off the ball so that could be a reason why.

Besides that Miami has no front court presense. Big Z isn't going to get it done, Anthony is the worst starter in the NBA. Maybe Dampier will help Miami, but I don't see a complete turnaround by adding him. Bosh is a finess player and doesn't add much to their front court other than scoring.

Losing Haslem was a big blow to that team. He was their only decent inside presense on defense. Granted Miller is out but even when he comes back that's still not going to help their front court at all.

I hate to say it but maybe trading Bosh for a good center and some other good players might not be the worst idea for the team.

Well sorry I can't account for "a lot of people"... Actually going back and reading what I was saying, I thought regardless of the offensive chemistry issues, the team should be dominating the game defensively, and that's why they'd still be winning... and they haven't done that aside from the first handful of games.

ink
11-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Well sorry I can't account for "a lot of people"... Actually going back and reading what I was saying, I thought regardless of the offensive chemistry issues, the team should be dominating the game defensively, and that's why they'd still be winning... and they haven't done that aside from the first handful of games.

Word of advice: if you take that tone this thread is going to blow up -- and not in a good way. This is a forum. People are not all going to agree with your thread idea. Let people disagree if they want to.

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Whoa hold up, did you say losing Shaq (close to prime) is comparable to not having Haslem (only been out a week) and Miller? :facepalm:

Come on man.....really? You're saying the most dominant player in the NBA = 2 role players? Good luck with that one.

Considering Shaq put up 13 PPG / 9 REB in the Finals that same exact year "close to prime"... and was behind Antoine Walker in scoring, then, yes. Even Maverick fans know that Alonzo Mourning was more important to the Heat winning the title than Shaq was.... and this is no diss on Shaq, just the truth.

macc
11-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Considering Shaq put up 13 PPG / 9 REB in the Finals that same exact year "close to prime"... and was behind Antoine Walker in scoring, then, yes. Even Maverick fans know that Alonzo Mourning was more important to the Heat winning the title than Shaq was.... and this is no diss on Shaq, just the truth.



I'm sorry, put up any stats you want but you can't convince me (or anyone with common sense) that Shaq = Miller and Haslem.

ink
11-26-2010, 01:21 PM
It would be justified because this is rileys baby. Riley made this happen, and at the end of the day, his name is on the product. He has a responsibility to do everything in his power to give the team the best chance to win.

I can see that logic prevailing. Riley could easily say that he created it and he has to make it work. Hopefully if he does, he finds a way to give Spo an out that doesn't pin the blame on him.

Hawkeye15
11-26-2010, 01:22 PM
there is something to be said about the level of respect that Riley would demand from his players versus Spo. You can say all you want that any that any coach should get the same amount of respect, but Pat Riley gets a different level of respect. Would it be justified? No. Erik is not the reason the Heat are struggling.
I think the Heat would be better with Pat Riley coaching them is the bottom line. But they still have a lot of issues to address overall, if they want to make noise this season in the playoffs.

Sactown
11-26-2010, 01:23 PM
Actually I think placing Riley as the coach would be justified and I also think that it's not SPO's fault! Now many of you will say "How is it justified if it's not SPO's fault?" well this is my explination, When Riley wants something done, it will get done and why you might ask? because he is a HOF coach who is respected by all the players. I don't think all of Miami's players are buying into coach SPO's system and that really isn't his fault. I think even if Riley told the players to play the exact same way they're playing now the players would buy into it more and start to win some games.

macc
11-26-2010, 01:24 PM
Considering Shaq put up 13 PPG / 9 REB in the Finals that same exact year "close to prime"... and was behind Antoine Walker in scoring, then, yes. Even Maverick fans know that Alonzo Mourning was more important to the Heat winning the title than Shaq was.... and this is no diss on Shaq, just the truth.



But if you want to use stats then don't ignore his reg season avg at 20 ppg 9.2 rpg 2.3 bpg while shooting 60%. Ya that's easily replaced by 2 role players :facepalm:

Sactown
11-26-2010, 01:24 PM
there is something to be said about the level of respect that Riley would demand from his players versus Spo. You can say all you want that any that any coach should get the same amount of respect, but Pat Riley gets a different level of respect. Would it be justified? No. Erik is not the reason the Heat are struggling.
I think the Heat would be better with Pat Riley coaching them is the bottom line. But they still have a lot of issues to address overall, if they want to make noise this season in the playoffs.

Damn you!! you said almost the exact same thing I said 1 minute earlier!! well we disagree on whether it would be justified

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:26 PM
Hey go easy there partner. No one is ignoring what you're saying. It's just that logic says that if you replace a coach there has to be a problem with the coach. How do you justify replacing someone who isn't the problem? The article I posted cites examples from observers who don't think it is at all. It really does seem like a case of scapegoating. But like I said, if that's what the fans want, go for it.

So basically what if boils down to is you believe last time it was the players fault, despite the record, and this time, despite any record, it's the players fault.

Can you give me an example of a recent situation in basketball where you, personally, thought it was the coach's fault? or that a coaching change was justified?

Hawkeye15
11-26-2010, 01:32 PM
Considering Shaq put up 13 PPG / 9 REB in the Finals that same exact year "close to prime"... and was behind Antoine Walker in scoring, then, yes. Even Maverick fans know that Alonzo Mourning was more important to the Heat winning the title than Shaq was.... and this is no diss on Shaq, just the truth.

don't take this thread on that tangent. Do you seriously think Shaq's impact at that time can be measured in these stats???????
He still demanded the opposing defense lock in on him, stack his side of the floor, and let ANYONE else beat them.
Sorry, but I get annoyed when fans downplay how huge Shaq was to that championship run

Hawkeye15
11-26-2010, 01:33 PM
Damn you!! you said almost the exact same thing I said 1 minute earlier!! well we disagree on whether it would be justified

great minds think alike

:cheers:

justinnum1
11-26-2010, 01:34 PM
I just don't see spo being able to coach this team to a ring. Maybe after a few years, but we know Riley has the ability to come in, and totally invigorate this team with confidence and swag. I can;t speak for lebron or bosh, but I know wade loves spo because they have a close relationship. So close that its probably a hinderance. I want someone to tell leebron to run laps, and tell him how it is. Lebron needs that. Riley can do it.

The bottom line is Spo is a good coach and not the problem in miami right now. But af the same time, Riley offers the team a much better chance at a ring.

ink
11-26-2010, 01:34 PM
So basically what if boils down to is you believe last time it was the players fault, despite the record, and this time, despite any record, it's the players fault.

Can you give me an example of a recent situation in basketball where you, personally, thought it was the coach's fault?

I'm talking about this situation, not the earlier one. They are two different scenarios. We already know that Riley is a good coach. If he feels it's at the point that he has to take over then so be it, but this is all on the players -- and ironically, the GM who assembled the team.

beasted86
11-26-2010, 01:36 PM
don't take this thread on that tangent. Do you seriously think Shaq's impact at that time can be measured in these stats???????
He still demanded the opposing defense lock in on him, stack his side of the floor, and let ANYONE else beat them.
Sorry, but I get annoyed when fans downplay how huge Shaq was to that championship run

Well like I said, it's no diss on Shaq. I don't want to take this too far off topic, but I realize he was a big part of the team, but people look at his regular season statline and somehow correlate his impact to near prime Shaq, when it wasn't even close. Especially during the Finals series this was exposed. Zo had almost an equal impact to Shaq on the overall game during that series.

Hawkeye15
11-26-2010, 01:37 PM
Well like I said, it's no diss on Shaq. I don't want to take this too far off topic, but I realize he was a big part of the team, but people look at his regular season statline and somehow correlate his impact to near prime Shaq, when it wasn't even close. Especially during the Finals series this was exposed. Zo had almost an equal impact to Shaq on the overall game during that series.

fair enough. But we both agree Shaq's impact can't be measured in those stats that playoffs. He was still the focal point of opposing defenses every single night.
Back to the topic haha...

ink
11-26-2010, 01:41 PM
I just don't see spo being able to coach this team to a ring. Maybe after a few years, but we know Riley has the ability to come in, and totally invigorate this team with confidence and swag. I can;t speak for lebron or bosh, but I know wade loves spo because they have a close relationship. So close that its probably a hinderance. I want someone to tell leebron to run laps, and tell him how it is. Lebron needs that. Riley can do it.

The bottom line is Spo is a good coach and not the problem in miami right now. But af the same time, Riley offers the team a much better chance at a ring.

Makes sense.

ManRam
11-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Of course it would be. The team isn't living up to expectations. Usually, in most every circumstance the coach bears the burden.

However, I think that pat needs to come out and support his coach rather then let all this speculation exist. If he plans on taking over, he needs to now. If he's not he needs to start defending his coach.

Baller1
11-26-2010, 01:49 PM
Of course it would be. The team isn't living up to expectations. Usually, in most every circumstance the coach bears the burden.

However, I think that pat needs to come out and support his coach rather then let all this speculation exist. If he plans on taking over, he needs to now. If he's not he needs to start defending his coach.

Exactly, he's only letting the situation get worse by keeping the organization on edge. He needs to make it clear what he's going to do, whether it be take over or stand by his coach.

Personally, I think he needs to take over and coach.

CowboysKB24
11-26-2010, 02:08 PM
It shows you can't build a team over night. You need to get players that benefit from each others styles and fit the coach's system.

chicago lulz
11-26-2010, 02:10 PM
there is something to be said about the level of respect that Riley would demand from his players versus Spo. You can say all you want that any that any coach should get the same amount of respect, but Pat Riley gets a different level of respect. Would it be justified? No. Erik is not the reason the Heat are struggling.
I think the Heat would be better with Pat Riley coaching them is the bottom line. But they still have a lot of issues to address overall, if they want to make noise this season in the playoffs.


I just don't see spo being able to coach this team to a ring. Maybe after a few years, but we know Riley has the ability to come in, and totally invigorate this team with confidence and swag. I can;t speak for lebron or bosh, but I know wade loves spo because they have a close relationship. So close that its probably a hinderance. I want someone to tell leebron to run laps, and tell him how it is. Lebron needs that. Riley can do it.

The bottom line is Spo is a good coach and not the problem in miami right now. But af the same time, Riley offers the team a much better chance at a ring.

I'm gonna have to agree with all the bold from these two posts

ewing
11-26-2010, 02:23 PM
Is it justified? Maybe not yet, but if they continue to struggle it makes sense to believe that Riles voice could be an influence. Like other have already said he demands respect and lets not forget he's a pretty strong X and O's guy too. That said if he does it and steps down again no one is going feel confortable with that job and high profile guys wouldn't even come near it. If Riles takes over he comitt to retiring as there coach

Chacarron
11-26-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't think it would be justified because Spoelstra is doing his job. It's not his problem that he has a depleted roster missing their two best players off the bench. Sure, Pat Riley would inspire the players but they have shown up until now that Wade, Lebron and Bosh cannot play together. So, no it wouldn't be justified because the coaching is not the problem.

RCarlson85
11-26-2010, 03:01 PM
I do believe Riley taking over would be justified. I'm not going to say the entire reason for this start is coaching related, but I do believe that's a big part of it. The Heat basically run zero plays on offense. That's on the coach. He lets them just do their 1 on 1 thing where one of Lebron/Wade dribbles around until the shot-clock is almost gone then they pull up or drive into a sea of defenders while the other 4 players on the court stand there. That's the biggest problem in my opinion - a lack of any sort of offensive gameplan.

My second problem with Spo as coach is that he doesn't have the balls to put these stars in their place or chew them out when they deserve to be chewed out. He's soft spoken and speaks with no fire whatsoever. Someone like Phil Jackson or Riley commands the respect of their players and when they talk players listen.

There are definitely issues also due to the fact that all 3 were the main players on their previous team. They're struggling to adjust and figure out their role alongside 2 other stars. That's going to take time. Hopefully with more time they will figure out their role.

xbrackattackx
11-26-2010, 03:30 PM
Remember just because something is "Just", it doesn't make it Fair.

CLASSOF72
11-26-2010, 04:02 PM
I hold the belief that Riley is a chip ring cherry picker, but with as much on the line down there in SBeach he'd better plan on stepping in if Spos can't right the ship.

Jam2
11-26-2010, 04:14 PM
I usually never start Miami Heat related topics in the NBA forum, but wanted to read a couple different takes on this.

As many already know, in the 2005-06 season Pat Riley & team ownership pressured Stan Van Gundy into resigning 21 games in after an 11-10 start. Pat Riley finished the season 41-20 as head coach on way to the Heat's first championship. Some people thought SVG was a capable coach and he should have been given more time.

If given the same circumstances right now under Spoelstra, if the Heat who are currently 8-7 go on to a 11-10 record over the next 6 games (PHI, DAL, WAS, DET, CLE, ATL) would Riley be justified firing Spoelstra and taking over again?


Im not sold on Eric Spoelstra as head coach, not now and never was prior to this season. That being said this is for the most part a brand new team, and several key pieces are missing so he deserves more time to prove he can lead these guys.

albertc86
11-26-2010, 04:17 PM
Riley only takes over if the team is winning. He's such an opportunist.

_KB24_
11-26-2010, 04:24 PM
I don't think Spo is the biggest problem, but I do agree with some of the other posters who are talking about respect. They seem him more as of a friend than a coach. No way would Bosh have said that stupid comment after his legit game if Riley was in the helms. We all knew it was a matter of time before Riley would step in. I say the 20-25 game mark is where he steps in.

Tony_Starks
11-26-2010, 04:27 PM
I don't think it would be justified at all because its way too early to panic. Everybody has bought into the hype like they were going to have a perfect season but the fact remains when you have 2 guys that are used to dominating the ball, one of which missed the preseason, its going to take some time. Boston was fortunate enough to get 3 players that compliment each other. Same with Gasol in LA. This situation is different. Not to mention they're getting everyone's A-game like they're the champs every night.

You gotta give Spo some time, you can't really judge a quality team until allstar break.

macc
11-26-2010, 04:43 PM
Riley only takes over if the team is winning. He's such an opportunist.

Yes pretty much how I see it. If he does take over he'll wait till Miller is back and Dampier has been integrated into the rotation.

TO to the CHI
11-26-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't think it would be justified this early in the season. More to the point, I don't think you can fairly assess the situation with a hindsight hypothetical (i.e. if the coach is replaced and the team gets better does it make the switch justified) because once gone you would never know what Spo could have done. The Heat are sure to get better as players come back and they mesh at least a little, so with Spo or Riley the record will improve. Thus, canning Spo in these circumstances can scarcely be deemed justified in my opinion.

It seems that this thread is not really one in which you want discussion though beasted. You know your viewpoint and have just argued with anyone who disagrees. Why ask a question that you already think you know the answer to and don't want any other opinions regarding?

dtmagnet
11-26-2010, 05:38 PM
Just sounds like more excuses for the Heat to be blaming the coach.

Sly Guy
11-26-2010, 05:51 PM
the only way to tell if it's justified would be at the end of the year to see if they win a ring or not.

<rant>Personally, if Riley takes over, I'd regard him as a ring chasing coach as bad as LeBron or Bosh's justification for going. Hell, I even regard Phil Jackson in the same light when he picks his coaching spots </rant>

RCarlson85
11-26-2010, 05:56 PM
Riley only takes over if the team is winning. He's such an opportunist.

I'm not really sure how you can say this. When he replaced Stan Van in '05-'06, the Heat were 11-10 and greatly underachieving. That same team was the top seed in the East the year before, won 59 games, and lost in game 7 of the ECF. There's no way they should have been hovering around .500. They made a turnaround when he took over.

Cubs Win
11-26-2010, 06:06 PM
I'm not really sure how you can say this. When he replaced Stan Van in '05-'06, the Heat were 11-10 and greatly underachieving. That same team was the top seed in the East the year before, won 59 games, and lost in game 7 of the ECF. There's no way they should have been hovering around .500. They made a turnaround when he took over.

I haven't read through the entire thread, but from this it sounds like you think Riley should take over then? As this current team is certainly underachieving and regardless of gelling shouldn't be hovering around .500.

TheWatcher34
11-26-2010, 06:13 PM
sooner or later it needs to be done. Spolestra is not the right coach for this team.

on a side note: the Clippers need to change their choach as well asap, Del Negro is horrible.

JasonJohnHorn
11-26-2010, 06:22 PM
If Phil Jackson or G. Pop was coaching this team, they would likely be doing better... that is to say if they had a pre-season to work through their systems.

Is Spo doing a bad job? No. He's not. His roster has limits, and holes at center and point guard, certainly the two most important positions when it comes to defence, and since their best rebounder is injured, their whole at center appears to be gaping, since LBJ has been playing more in the back court and hasnt been able to help on the boards like he did in Cleveland.

Greg Pop is considered to be among the best in league history, and he's had some rocky starts to some seasons, notably 99 when they started 6-8. But Duncan stood up for his coach at the time, and the Spurs went on a 9 game winning streak an went on to win the title that year. If Pop had been fired for that slow start, I dont think the Spurs would have won 4 titles, and may have not won any.

But this Spo situation is different. I was NOT a fan of what happened with SVG. Obviously i'm a fan with no inside info, so I dont know what really happened, but how it looked from the outside was Riley looking for an excuse so he could add another ring to his resume. Riley gave Spo and SVG a losing team because he didnt want to take a bunch of loses in consecutive seasons on his career record, and when the team gets good he wants back in. SVG wasnt treated fairly from where I was standing because he got that team back in the playoffs and helped them into the second rond before shaq even got there. He helped get them back on track. Spo hasnt done that. He hasnt earned anything in my eyes, I think SVG earned the right to see what he could do with that roster and Riley was just looking for an excuse to step in.

Also, I dont remember players calling out SVG in Miami, claiming he choices were the issue. Now however you have LBJ calling into question how many minutes are being played and other coaching choices, your best player is bringing media attention to the coaches choices, the team is grossly under achieving, and fan expect a change. there arent any quality PGs or Cs on the market, and though they need a better bench, there arent many players available outside of those they already picked up... so... the only other change they can make is a the coaching position.

So, yes, in this situation it seems like in order to stop the flood gates, the Heat need a change of some sort and coach is the most logical way to do that.

As many stated above, without Miller and Haslem, its hard to see how good this team would be. But that said, after the media circus that was Miami's off season, the national media has this team under the microscope and everybody in the media has been speculating about this for months, and now see a reason to start writing about it.

JasonJohnHorn
11-26-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm not really sure how you can say this. When he replaced Stan Van in '05-'06, the Heat were 11-10 and greatly underachieving. That same team was the top seed in the East the year before, won 59 games, and lost in game 7 of the ECF. There's no way they should have been hovering around .500. They made a turnaround when he took over.

I think the claim that Riley is an opprotunist is accurate. If SVG was 11-10 with the Odom and Wade combo, Riley wouldnt have stepped in to take over. That 06 Heat team had a lot of fresh faces and guys were feeling each other out (Posey, Kapono, Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, Gary Payton- all key players). You look at Pop in 99, he started out 6-8 with a team that had the best front court in the leauge. Sometimes a team gets off to a slow start. He went on to win the title that year, and as SVG has proven in Orlando, and as a head coach for Miami in 04, he is a good coach.

Riley stepped down both times because he didnt want to absorb those losses on his career stats, and when the sitaution got good, he was more that happy to slip in last time, and like will do the same again.

Regardless of Riley's motives, it is a change that needs to be made

KnicksorBust
11-26-2010, 06:46 PM
I just don't see spo being able to coach this team to a ring. Maybe after a few years, but we know Riley has the ability to come in, and totally invigorate this team with confidence and swag. I can;t speak for lebron or bosh, but I know wade loves spo because they have a close relationship. So close that its probably a hinderance. I want someone to tell leebron to run laps, and tell him how it is. Lebron needs that. Riley can do it.

The bottom line is Spo is a good coach and not the problem in miami right now. But af the same time, Riley offers the team a much better chance at a ring.

It took until post #35 but someone finally gave my opinion. Great coaches get the best out of great players. Spo might get there... but when you have LeBron-Wade-Bosh at their peak... why waste time on that gamble?

Jewelz0376
11-26-2010, 06:49 PM
Riley coming back this year make the team better probably...but it still wont make them title contenders....

If Riley comes back they will still

1) Have problems defending the pg
2) Have problems protecting the paint
3) Be a jump shooting team

You can't win a title having those issues... If your going to be a jump shooting team and win you better be great defensively and right now the Heat aren't and I don't think they have the personnel to be a championship caliber defense...Their D will look good at times against the average or weak teams but against the good teams they get exposed...

Riley knows this so I doubt he comes back this year...He knows this team needs better personnel...especially with Haslem done likely for the year...So I don't really think its justified because expectations were just way too high to begin with...

HoopsMachine
11-26-2010, 07:08 PM
No because the problem lies within the roster composition, I doubt Riley would want to take the job over at this point anyways.

kozelkid
11-26-2010, 08:25 PM
I think a lot of people overrate Riley's ability in this situation. Besides all else, he doesn't appear he wants to go back to the grueling work of coaching. He's old and he was hoping after the biggest heist NBA history, he could relax and watch his team win many championships. I think people underestimate his age and the fact that he just isn't up to it anymore. Not mention as others mentioned, Riley can't change a flawed roster.

RCarlson85
11-26-2010, 11:05 PM
I haven't read through the entire thread, but from this it sounds like you think Riley should take over then? As this current team is certainly underachieving and regardless of gelling shouldn't be hovering around .500.

Yes, I would rather have Riley as coach. I've never liked Spo as a coach, not this year or in the years before. My post was not really saying that I want Riley to take over, but just responding to someone who says Riley only takes over winning teams. My point was that when he took over the Heat weren't doing that well at 11-10.

beasted86
11-26-2010, 11:32 PM
I think a lot of people overrate Riley's ability in this situation. Besides all else, he doesn't appear he wants to go back to the grueling work of coaching. He's old and he was hoping after the biggest heist NBA history, he could relax and watch his team win many championships. I think people underestimate his age and the fact that he just isn't up to it anymore. Not mention as others mentioned, Riley can't change a flawed roster.

I don't underestimate his age, and I surely don't overrate his ability, because he's a HOF coach and has 5 rings as a coach, 2 as a player... he definitely knows what he's doing a lot more than Spo, no question. I KNOW he doesn't want to coach, that's why he is only going to take over if it's absolutely necessary.

If Phil Jackson just won a championship and has a roster very capable of a 3 peat, and even he was considering retiring.... I highly doubt Riley wants to take on the task of fixing the mess Spoelstra started at the same age of 65. He wants to do everything possible to make it work with Spo, and that's why he's still down there coaching. If Riley really wanted to coach, Spo would be searching the classifieds right now.

ink
11-27-2010, 12:23 AM
I don't underestimate his age, and I surely don't overrate his ability, because he's a HOF coach and has 5 rings as a coach, 2 as a player... he definitely knows what he's doing a lot more than Spo, no question. I KNOW he doesn't want to coach, that's why he is only going to take over if it's absolutely necessary.

If Phil Jackson just won a championship and has a roster very capable of a 3 peat, and even he was considering retiring.... I highly doubt Riley wants to take on the task of fixing the mess Spoelstra started at the same age of 65. He wants to do everything possible to make it work with Spo, and that's why he's still down there coaching. If Riley really wanted to coach, Spo would be searching the classifieds right now.

The mess was started by Riley right? Spoelstra is just trying to sort through it.

kntresistheheat
11-27-2010, 12:24 AM
Yes. He will get the best out of them, Great players respond better to a great coach...End of story!

Russollini
11-27-2010, 12:33 AM
If the coach is not the issue then they better trade Lebron or Bosh. They could land the mother load :).

As a heat fan, I thought the Big 3 was not necessary. It could have been the big two and lots of real good pieces. Don't get me wrong, I was excited like anyone else, but I wonder if they are not feeling buyers remorse on one or the other. How would that impact Wade? Anyway, that is a dream I think (or maybe a nightmare). I think a new coach is truly the answer. Coach K? Rivers? Riles? I am not sure who, but someone.

eXpLiiCt
11-27-2010, 12:34 AM
Heat Thread # 2,425,354 only 145,646,453,535,246,453,534 Trillion more to go.

Bos_Sports4Life
11-27-2010, 01:03 AM
it is what it is, the heat are a team with basically zero low post presense and until that gets fixed, they are the 3rd best team in the east, simple as that...

ink
11-27-2010, 01:21 AM
“It’s different this time, because Pat knows he can’t be the difference,” one former Riley assistant said.

If Riley doesn’t return to coach the Heat this season, it won’t be out of a sense of fairness, right and wrong, but self-preservation and self-interest. Riley says he doesn’t have the stomach for the grind at 65, but closer to the truth is that he doesn’t have the stomach for failure. For now, Riley can still lay the blame for this season on injuries and his young coach, Erik Spoelstra. No one has a bigger ego than Riley, but this isn’t 2005, and it won’t be Dirk Nowitzki(notes) awaiting him in the NBA Finals.

Here’s Riley’s best play: Wait until the summer when there are two possible free-agent coaches – Boston’s Doc Rivers and Portland’s Nate McMillan – on the market. Rivers is a long shot because he’s inclined to re-sign with the Celtics, but McMillan – who has worked with the Heat stars on Team USA – is the kind of tough-minded, defensive coach these Heat could use. McMillan’s candidacy with Los Angeles Lakers also won’t be hurt because Kobe Bryant(notes) is such an admirer.

For now, though, Riley doesn’t need a new coach. He needs to support Spoelstra after allowing LeBron James(notes) and Chris Bosh(notes) to publicly embarrass and undermine their coach. The losing has created the Riles-to-the-bench hysteria, but James and Bosh had to come out and pop Spoelstra for practicing them too hard and playing them too many minutes.


Riley needs to be a GM now, not a coach. He needs to figure out a way to get his frontcourt bench some help. He needs to tell James and Bosh to work as hard as Spoelstra wants, to play as many minutes as he demands.

Riley brought so much of this on himself, on his young coach, when he declared prior to free agency that he was open to take over as coach again. Privately, Wade told his new teammates that wasn’t the way to go, that Spoelstra was solid and they needed to get behind him. Now, they’re playing like they want the coach fired, and that would be the wrong play for the wrong reasons.

This isn’t 2005, and this isn’t Van Gundy. Everything’s changed, but this: The old man still has a big ego, a need for drama. Only, Riley now needs to win it all to make another coup work, and that isn’t happening this season with the Miami Heat. Pat Riley is one of the greatest ever, but even he has to know he’s not that good.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AifZ0QGXvPQgcjStZlLfrBW8vLYF?slug=aw-rileyheat112510

beasted86
11-27-2010, 02:06 AM
The mess was started by Riley right? Spoelstra is just trying to sort through it.

Mess started by Riley?

The closest and best analogy I can make to this situation is if a race car builder handed the keys to a brand new kit car Shelby GT with a 351 Windsor and full drive train and suspension setup to match to a customer... and the customer never tunes the carbs and adjust the suspension alignment, and as an amateur driver goes and races against experienced pro drivers and loses multiple races, how exactly is the builder at fault?

The assembled parts were more than good enough to win with, and not only win, dominate the race with.

Sure in this analogy the players aren't an exact science which only has user fault like engine parts are, but you get the point. There is only so much blame to go on the players when the sum of the parts should be good enough to win.

ink
11-27-2010, 02:10 AM
Mess started by Riley?

The closest and best analogy I can make to this situation is if a race car builder handed the keys to a brand new kit car Shelby GT with a 351 Windsor and full drive train and suspension setup to match to a customer... and the customer never tunes the carbs and adjust the suspension alignment, and as an amateur driver goes and races against experienced pro drivers and loses multiple races, how exactly is the builder at fault?

The assembled parts were more than good enough to win with, and not only win, dominate the race with.

Sure in this analogy the players aren't an exact science which only has user fault like engine parts are, but you get the point. There is only so much blame to go on the players when the sum of the parts should be good enough to win.

The difference is that the Shelby has all its parts. You guys are scapegoating because you can't accept that the team was poorly built. It came with 2 1/2 motors, bad tires and no suspension. Then the driver gets the blame?

Take a look at the article I posted above. There are those that say that Riley is too old to nurse this one back into shape and that the superstars need to discipline themselves and do the hard work it takes to create a winner.

effen5
11-27-2010, 02:35 AM
The difference is that the Shelby has all its parts. You guys are scapegoating because you can't accept that the team was poorly built. It came with 2 1/2 motors, bad tires and no suspension. Then the driver gets the blame?

Take a look at the article I posted above. There are those that say that Riley is too old to nurse this one back into shape and that the superstars need to discipline themselves and do the hard work it takes to create a winner.

win

beasted86
11-27-2010, 02:47 AM
The difference is that the Shelby has all its parts. You guys are scapegoating because you can't accept that the team was poorly built. It came with 2 1/2 motors, bad tires and no suspension. Then the driver gets the blame?

Take a look at the article I posted above. There are those that say that Riley is too old to nurse this one back into shape and that the superstars need to discipline themselves and do the hard work it takes to create a winner.

Okay, now I've heard it all. The team is broken, not the individual players, not the coach, the team is broken.

All I can say is I and everyone with common sense disagrees with you. This team that Spoelstra was given this season is better than the team he had last season, and the team is performing worse than the one he had last season.

But either way, as I've said from the start the topic wasn't about whether I or you or anyone thought the coaching was the problem, it was whether after a 11-10 start a coaching change would be justified. I don't necessarily think the reason the Phoenix Suns could never get over the hump was D'Antoni... but after 5 years of failure while the owner was paying the luxury, I think the coaching change was justified. I also think after a 11-10 start with this level of talent on the team, a coaching change would be justified, even if Spoelstra isn't to blame.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-27-2010, 02:49 AM
The coaching could definately improve. But Spo isn't the main reason why they have a bad start. It's the fact that all 3 players need the ball throughout the game to be effective.

Bosh's thing was that he could get 20 PPG. Now that he doesn't get the ball, he can't do anything.

Wade was used to doing most of the duties by himself in Miami the last couple of seasons. Now he has to split with Lebron.

Lebron was used to having the ball in his hands all the time. Now that he doesn't get the ball as much, he doesn't know what to do and takes so many shots because he's not use to other people setting up for him.

ink
11-27-2010, 02:56 AM
Okay, now I've heard it all. The team is broken, not the individual players, not the coach, the team is broken.

All I can say is I and everyone with common sense disagrees with you. This team that Spoelstra was given this season is better than the team he had last season, and the team is performing worse than the one he had last season.

But either way, as I've said from the start the topic wasn't about whether I or you or anyone thought the coaching was the problem, it was whether after a 20-11 start a coaching change would be justified.

Read the articles I've posted. You said that everyone disagrees and yet both of those articles make the same points I'm making. So, no, everyone with common sense doesn't disagree. btw, I don't know what you mean by "the team is broken". The point these articles are making is that the construction of the team was compromised: they have three alpha males who don't know how to play together over the long term, and couldn't really assemble the supporting cast necessary to build a strong team. Even DWade made the comment that this isn't the Olympics, this is an 82 game season and it's going to be hard to make this work. Not saying it can't. On pure talent, LBJ and DWade can do remarkable things. So no one is counting them out. But to answer the thread question, according to at least one writer here (the one I just quoted) Pat Riley may not want to have to take this challenge on at his age. That's not that controversial, and it's right on focus.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 02:59 AM
The coaching could definately improve. But Spo isn't the main reason why they have a bad start. It's the fact that all 3 players need the ball throughout the game to be effective.

Bosh's thing was that he could get 20 PPG. Now that he doesn't get the ball, he can't do anything.

Wade was used to doing most of the duties by himself in Miami the last couple of seasons. Now he has to split with Lebron.

Lebron was used to having the ball in his hands all the time. Now that he doesn't get the ball as much, he doesn't know what to do and takes so many shots because he's not use to other people setting up for him.
This doesn't make any sense

1) Bosh has been averaging 19.3 PPG, 7.4 REB on 3 less minutes than his career average in November.

2) Wade won a championship sharing the basketball with Shaq and Antoine Walker... um, nuff said asking whether he can share the ball. One would be a diva in the media and destroy chemistry in the lockerroom if he thought he wasn't getting enough touches over his entire career, and the other was know as a chucker over his entire career.

3) LeBron is the Heat's defacto PG and is averaging 8.3 assists. How much more can the ball be in his hands?

NYtilIdie
11-27-2010, 03:03 AM
^ No, its because he has 2 ball dominant players in LBJ & Wade. Last year it was obvious who the offense would run through, this year he doesn't know who that guy is, hell even LBJ & Wade look lost when on the floor together, its like they take turns on possessions just so the other can get his touches.

This is why the ideal combo for success in the league is a good wing player & a good bigman. I've been saying lately that the Heat should've never signed LBJ (you'll most likely dis-agree) because I can guarantee you a team with Wade & Bosh + solid bench players (not reserves that currently fill your bench) would not be in the situation the current Heat team is in. You know who'd run the offense, Wade would still be playing at the MVP-level and not a spot up shooter, Bosh would be a 20/10.

Iodine
11-27-2010, 03:07 AM
And NY they would have been able to sign some better depth pieces at PG and C

effen5
11-27-2010, 03:08 AM
^ No, its because he has 2 ball dominant players in LBJ & Wade. Last year it was obvious who the offense would run through, this year he doesn't know who that guy is, hell even LBJ & Wade look lost when on the floor together, its like they take turns on possessions just so the other can get his touches.

This is why the ideal combo for success in the league is a good wing player & a good bigman. I've been saying lately that the Heat should've never signed LBJ (you'll most likely dis-agree) because I can guarantee you a team with Wade & Bosh + solid bench players (not reserves that currently fill your bench) would not be in the situation the current Heat team is in. You know who'd run the offense, Wade would still be playing at the MVP-level and not a spot up shooter, Bosh would be a 20/10.

Im convinced Beasted won't listen to us. I agree with both you and ink. The team is flawed, I've been saying this since preseason (some Heat fan even has it in his Sig where I said Heat has better players, Bulls have a better team)

The Heat just isn't working. I heard a stat yesterday saying that teams have outscored the Heat when Lebron and Dwade are both on the floor compared to when Bosh is on the floor with either Lebron or Wade.

effen5
11-27-2010, 03:09 AM
And NY they would have been able to sign some better depth pieces at PG and C

which in hindsight, thats what they should have done.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 03:14 AM
Read the articles I've posted. You said that everyone disagrees and yet both of those articles make the same points I'm making. So, no, everyone with common sense doesn't disagree. btw, I don't know what you mean by "the team is broken". The point these articles are making is that the construction of the team was compromised: they have three alpha males who don't know how to play together over the long term, and couldn't really assemble the supporting cast necessary to build a strong team. Even DWade made the comment that this isn't the Olympics, this is an 82 game season and it's going to be hard to make this work. Not saying it can't. On pure talent, LBJ and DWade can do remarkable things. So no one is counting them out. But to answer the thread question, according to at least one writer here (the one I just quoted) Pat Riley may not want to have to take this challenge on at his age. That's not that controversial, and it's right on focus.

The construction of the team is compromised doesn't mean the team is broken? What does it mean then?

It's one thing if you are blaming the coach saying he doesn't run enough offense, the defensive schemes are poor, etc.... it's another thing to blame an individual player like Bosh is not playing tough enough defense, or Wade is playing lazy defense, or LeBron is not being aggressive enough.... and finally it's a whole 3rd different thing to say the players are not a good fit and the team is not a good team as currently constructed. That right there is essentialyl saying the team is broken. The composition of players if flawed means the team is broken.

And finally on the last note, again you are getting off topic into a whole different discussion. Anyone who pays attention to basketball knows Pat Riley doesn't want to coach. Riley has as many health issues as Phil. This is a guy who had a knee and replacement hip surgery about 2 years ago,and unlike Phil, Riley would still have all duties to carry out as Team President, General Manager, and head coach all at the same time. Since Randy Pfund stepped down there is nobody else to fall back on. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out a 65yr old guy doesn't want all of that on his plate, plus the stress of extremely high expectations of the team's success.

ink
11-27-2010, 03:17 AM
The construction of the team is compromised doesn't mean the team is broken? What does it mean then?

It's one thing if you are blaming the coach saying he doesn't run enough offense, the defensive schemes are poor, etc.... it's another thing to blame an individual player like Bosh is not playing tough enough defense, or Wade is playing lazy defense, or LeBron is not being aggressive enough.... and finally it's a whole 3rd different thing to say the players are not a good fit and the team is not a good team as currently constructed. That right there is essentialyl saying the team is broken. The composition of players if flawed means the team is broken.

I didn't say any of that.


And finally on the last note, again you are getting off topic into a whole different discussion. Anyone who pays attention to basketball knows Pat Riley doesn't want to coach. Riley has as many health issues as Phil. This is a guy who had a knee and replacement hip surgery about 2 years ago,and unlike Phil, Riley would still have all duties to carry out as Team President, General Manager, and head coach all at the same time. Since Randy Pfund stepped down there is nobody else to fall back on. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out a 65yr old guy doesn't want all of that on his plate, plus the stress of extremely high expectations of the team's success.

I'm not getting off topic, I was basically saying the same thing. Riley is getting too old. You just underlined that point with this comment. So, based on that, I can't see how it would be justified to have someone of his age take over the team.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 03:21 AM
^ No, its because he has 2 ball dominant players in LBJ & Wade. Last year it was obvious who the offense would run through, this year he doesn't know who that guy is, hell even LBJ & Wade look lost when on the floor together, its like they take turns on possessions just so the other can get his touches.

This is why the ideal combo for success in the league is a good wing player & a good bigman. I've been saying lately that the Heat should've never signed LBJ (you'll most likely dis-agree) because I can guarantee you a team with Wade & Bosh + solid bench players (not reserves that currently fill your bench) would not be in the situation the current Heat team is in. You know who'd run the offense, Wade would still be playing at the MVP-level and not a spot up shooter, Bosh would be a 20/10.

Yeah, I disagree. Tell me exactly what teammates would be better using actually signing salaries, that players actually signed for this past summer, then maybe I might take you seriously.

And please, I'd rather not go into fantasy land speculation of guys taking less, just use actual signing salaries. Remember LeBron signed for $14M, so what combination of players for $14M would the Heat be better off with?

ink
11-27-2010, 03:23 AM
Yeah, I disagree. Tell me exactly what team would be better using actually signing salaries, that players actually signed for this past summer, then maybe I might take you seriously.

And please, I'd rather not go into fantasy land speculation of guys taking less, just use actual signing salaries. Remember LeBron signed for $14M, so what combination of players for $14M would the Heat be better off with?

You're attempting a strawman argument aren't you? No one is talking about signing salaries. He was making the point that you need a wing and a big man. That's all.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 03:28 AM
You're attempting a strawman argument aren't you? No one is talking about signing salaries. He was making the point that you need a wing and a big man. That's all.

Not trying to sound smart, but please re-read in case you missed it:


I've been saying lately that the Heat should've never signed LBJ (you'll most likely dis-agree) because I can guarantee you a team with Wade & Bosh + solid bench players (not reserves that currently fill your bench) would not be in the situation the current Heat team is in.

I don't think you need to add any explanation to what he was saying, it's pretty clear. He's saying the team would be better with Wade & Bosh alone and spending that money elsewhere to strengthen the bench and/or supporting role players.

ink
11-27-2010, 03:34 AM
I don't think you need to add any explanation to what he was saying, it's pretty clear. He's saying the team would be better with Wade & Bosh alone and spending that money elsewhere to strengthen the bench and/or supporting role players.

Not sure what you're saying. He says you need a wing and a big and you don't need Lebron. Nothing to do with signing salaries.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 03:35 AM
Not sure what you're saying. He says you need a wing and a big and you don't need Lebron. Nothing to do with signing salaries.

Not sure what you don't understand.... We already have Wade & Bosh.. he's saying we'd be better off without LeBron. How are you still confused? :shrug:

I'm asking who would we replace LeBron with out of last summer's free agents that would make the team better.

ink
11-27-2010, 03:40 AM
Not sure what you don't understand.... We already have Wade & Bosh.. he's saying we'd be better off without LeBron. How are you still confused? :shrug:

No one is confused. Please chill. If Riley already had Wade and Bosh he should have moved on to pick up the parts he actually needed. LBJ was not necessary; that was his point.

beasted86
11-27-2010, 03:45 AM
No one is confused. Please chill. If Riley already had Wade and Bosh he should have moved on to pick up the parts he actually needed. LBJ was not necessary; that was his point.

So what are these parts he needed? What parts are these that are better than LeBron?

Aside from you dancing around the question, you are answering a question that wasn't directed at you. Anyhow, there is someone confused here... it's me... your posts in general are confusing me and I'm the one who started the thread and am asking the questions.

I'll check back in the morning if there is anything constructive posted in here. I'm out.

ink
11-27-2010, 03:57 AM
So what are these parts he needed? What parts are these that are better than LeBron?

Aside from you dancing around the question, you are answering a question that wasn't directed at you. Anyhow, there is someone confused here... it's me... your posts in general are confusing me and I'm the one who started the thread and am asking the questions.

I'll check back in the morning if there is anything constructive posted in here. I'm out.

It seems like a whole slew of articles and posts are confusing you because you don't want to hear that the team was poorly built. What people are responding to is the fact that you don't need three alpha males. It's a classic question for a team: do you win with three stars or do you win by building a team with complementary parts? The Celtics Big 3 is a perfect combination of complementary parts -- scorer, shooter, aggressive post player -- so we know that the problem isn't solely with having three stars. The problem is that the three pals that got together this summer were all too similar in disposition and role on their previous teams. You ask who I would suggest as an alternative, but that's just dodging the point. The thread has gone off topic as it is. We're on a tangent brought about by a comment by another poster. To go back to the thread topic, as I've pointed out, as a few articles have pointed out, Riley may not be the solution. Because of age and because the challenge is too difficult. As Adrian Wojnarowski points out:

“It’s different this time, because Pat knows he can’t be the difference.”

Kyben36
11-27-2010, 04:33 AM
No I dont think so. Personaly, I dont think that Pat is that great of a coach, Personaly, I think its more the players than the coaching, they dont have big presence inside ( defensivly) and they dont have the role players for the team to be as succesful as they want to be. when Chalmers and Miller come back it will help, but they do need a big man who can play big time D, becuase bosh isnt enough inside.

jackdawson
11-27-2010, 06:22 AM
double post...

jackdawson
11-27-2010, 06:23 AM
What about Riley's responsibility for having created the problem in the first place by bringing the three of them together? Ironic that he created the problem and yet people consider him to be the solution. It seems that he thought they'd be so far above their competition that their skill level would compensate for a lack of cohesion.

Let's be honest here. Would you not take those three players if you had the chance. Give me one GM or President who wouldn't. What's your point? Riley did a job in putting a team together within cap that nobody else could have done better, I mean NOBODY.
Coaches have a lot to do with winning. In last 16 years, only Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Greg Popovich, Larry Brown, and Doc Rivers won championship. So it shows every contender needs a HOF coach to win it all, at least in this modern era. Spoelstra is not gonna get the best efforts out this team night in and night out. He is a very nice person and friend and all that, but to coach this team and to earn their respect you have to have a great coach such as Pat Riley. The man is one of the greatest motivational/inspirational speakers in NBA history. His coaching credentials are pretty much unquestionable.

jackdawson
11-27-2010, 06:45 AM
Riley only takes over if the team is winning. He's such an opportunist.

Yea, when the team was winning last time he took over in 2006 :rolleyes: Get over with it man...

Badluck33
11-27-2010, 07:38 AM
Miami Heat are a mess. I dont think a coaching change will do anything else other than put them under a bigger microscope.



....NOT 6 titles, NOT 7 titles, NOT 8 Titles....

how bout ZERO titles?

Badluck33
11-27-2010, 07:40 AM
No I dont think so. Personaly, I dont think that Pat is that great of a coach, Personaly, I think its more the players than the coaching, they dont have big presence inside ( defensivly) and they dont have the role players for the team to be as succesful as they want to be. when Chalmers and Miller come back it will help, but they do need a big man who can play big time D, becuase bosh isnt enough inside.

bosh has to worry bout
Gerald Wallace 4 times a year.
Kevin Garnett 4 times a year
Dwight Howard 6 times a year.
Al Horford 6 times a year.


ya, Bosh isn't nearly enough.

D1JM
11-27-2010, 09:15 AM
Let's be honest here. Would you not take those three players if you had the chance. Give me one GM or President who wouldn't. What's your point? Riley did a job in putting a team together within cap that nobody else could have done better, I mean NOBODY.
Coaches have a lot to do with winning. In last 16 years, only Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Greg Popovich, Larry Brown, and Doc Rivers won championship. So it shows every contender needs a HOF coach to win it all, at least in this modern era. Spoelstra is not gonna get the best efforts out this team night in and night out. He is a very nice person and friend and all that, but to coach this team and to earn their respect you have to have a great coach such as Pat Riley. The man is one of the greatest motivational/inspirational speakers in NBA history. His coaching credentials are pretty much unquestionable.

Those teams won because they have had some good players on their team.

Mochalman
11-27-2010, 09:17 AM
he should stay behind the scenes

knickfan4life
11-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Coach Spo has anywhere from 5-15 games to get on a winning streak b/c if things dont change and Miami is under .600 by the 30 game mark, no way Pat is keeping him. I dont care who is hurt, you cant have a superstar lineup losing to the damn pacers, grizzlies, bobcats, hawks, etc... they need to change the way they play the game... the BEST player on that team is lebron weither bosh and wade like it or not... put the ball in lebrons hands and let him create shots 4 the other 2... if Spo doesnt see this, get rid of his ***... these guys said they wud check their ego's at the door... when u tell them we runnin the offense thru lebron, ull see if they were full of it, or if they really wanna win the next 6 rings....

NYtilIdie
11-27-2010, 11:31 AM
Yeah, I disagree. Tell me exactly what teammates would be better using actually signing salaries, that players actually signed for this past summer, then maybe I might take you seriously.

And please, I'd rather not go into fantasy land speculation of guys taking less, just use actual signing salaries. Remember LeBron signed for $14M, so what combination of players for $14M would the Heat be better off with?

Ink is reffering to this part when he says im saying you need a wing and a big


This is why the ideal combo for success in the league is a good wing player & a good bigman


As for the question, assuming you don't sign Mike Miller, you can fill your voids with the PG first. You can have Raymond Felton, although he would have a high asking price or you could go cheap with Luke Ridnour who showed last year he can run the offense as he was the one PG Skiles would put in the final minutes of the game last year instead of Jennings.

Then for cheap, but tough defender you can sign Kurt Thomas. He doesn't score, but he can still play tough defense and bangs with bodies, which should keep Bosh happy. I keep the Z signing, he's cheap and still serviceable. Hell, maybe even Brad Miller if his price is reasonable or dare I say, Darko since he can block shots and the asking price isn't much assuming the T'Wolves don't overpay him.

Now basing the bench factor off the of Haslem taking a pay cut, Nate Robinson only signed for $4 mil this year I believe, although the chances of him going somewhere else outside of the C's is slim.

That would leave you guys weak at the 3 though. Having Z, Chalmers, Robinson, and Haslem pretty much fills you bench with a 9 man rotation , but you need to sign a 3, for the vets min. which shouldn't be hard to find, just someone who can come in and give Wade a breather.



So you'd have

PG: Felton (Ridnour)/Chalmers
SG: Wade/Robinson
SF: Jones/Wade
PF: Bosh/Haslem
C: Thomas (Brad Miller or Darko)/Z

While it doesn't compare to the Heat squad right now, its better built you have PG's who can run the offense and score, you have a tough, scrappy center in Thomas who will cover Bosh's soft defense, with a solid bench.

HakeemTheDream
11-27-2010, 04:06 PM
Honestly, Spoelstra should go back to focusing on being a shooting instructor instead of a head coach. Right now Lebron and Wade are shooting horribly behind the arc and that's one of the main reasons they're losing games. Let Riley take over and keep running high pick and rolls with Bosh who is actually shoots better than the other 2.

jackdawson
11-27-2010, 04:56 PM
Those teams won because they have had some good players on their team.

What??? LeBron, Wade, Bosh are not good players? What are you talking about here?????

beasted86
11-28-2010, 12:04 AM
So you'd have

PG: Felton (Ridnour)/Chalmers
SG: Wade/Robinson
SF: Jones/Wade
PF: Bosh/Haslem
C: Thomas (Brad Miller or Darko)/Z

While it doesn't compare to the Heat squad right now, its better built you have PG's who can run the offense and score, you have a tough, scrappy center in Thomas who will cover Bosh's soft defense, with a solid bench.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time with a rebutal, because both you and I know you are fetching. That's not a contender at all. Not even close.

As you see it's not so easy when I ask you to actually spell it out. So whether you think the team is broken or not, it's still better than most other scenarios people can come up with by plugging in free agents with LeBron in there.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-28-2010, 12:13 AM
This doesn't make any sense

1) Bosh has been averaging 19.3 PPG, 7.4 REB on 3 less minutes than his career average in November.

2) Wade won a championship sharing the basketball with Shaq and Antoine Walker... um, nuff said asking whether he can share the ball. One would be a diva in the media and destroy chemistry in the lockerroom if he thought he wasn't getting enough touches over his entire career, and the other was know as a chucker over his entire career.

3) LeBron is the Heat's defacto PG and is averaging 8.3 assists. How much more can the ball be in his hands?

1. Like I said, Bosh can't do much unless he gets the ball. It's good that he's getting more possesions to get his averages up to 19.3 PPG. Other than that, he is a bad rebounder and bad defender.

2. Wade won the championship because he took over by HIMSELF for most of the playoffs. And after they won the title, there has been so little help for Wade.

3. Lebron needs the ball in his hands all the time so he can slash or set up teammates. He looks lost without it when other people pas him the ball and starts taking shots when he knows that he is best at slashing.

Raph12
11-28-2010, 12:15 AM
No - They owe him that much to atleast let him finish the season and see what he can accomplish.

mjt20mik
11-28-2010, 12:18 AM
No - They owe him that much to atleast let him finish the season and see what he can accomplish.

It is looking like they are unresponsive to coach Spo though. I think they will see how well he does, but if the results are the similar from now to the All-star break, I wouldn't be surprised if Spo stepped down.

Raph12
11-28-2010, 12:33 AM
It is looking like they are unresponsive to coach Spo though. I think they will see how well he does, but if the results are the similar from now to the All-star break, I wouldn't be surprised if Spo stepped down.

Well I don't expect them to be at 30-29 by the AS break, but somewhere around 35-24 sounds about right...

ink
11-28-2010, 12:41 AM
No - They owe him that much to atleast let him finish the season and see what he can accomplish.

It's a lynch mob at this point. Don't people remember how Lebron buried Mike Brown last year?

mjt20mik
11-28-2010, 12:42 AM
Well I don't expect them to be at 30-29 by the AS break, but somewhere around 35-24 sounds about right...

Oh I didn't mean that. I just meant them not playing to potential. We could see a switch up.

Hoopsadvocate
11-28-2010, 12:47 AM
It is cause a coach is apart of a team like a player is. So its like asking is it justified to make a trade to upgrade ur roster? Of course because u want to better ur team and riley is a HOF coach. I remember a comment on NBA tv where the analyst asked a question of wether riley would help make this team better and he said "ya, i mean if u were able to get MJ in his prime wouldnt that help any team?"

Basically any move that makes ur team better is always justified. Just because some people on here have turned this into a blame spo or not thing isnt really relevant. This is why i think so many basketball fans got mind f***ed by the whole heat thing anytime they read something they automatically think drama and that something has to be about someone not doing something wether its a player (bosh/lebron) or a coach (spo). People should try actually reading the whole topic and putting their personal feelings about them aside.

soundjunkies2
11-28-2010, 12:54 AM
Definitely would be justified. What are they 1-7 now against above 500 teams. The teams that they've been beating just aren't very good.

Russollini
11-28-2010, 03:42 PM
It is quite simple. Last year we had Beas and Wright, who are not playing very good, and we never saw anything from either of them, why? Poor Coaching. Wade is in charge and not SPO. He probably told James and Bosh we can be our own coaches, it is great.

We did not need Bosh, we needed someone who could coach and lead this team. Someone calling plays. Beas and Wade would have been no different then Bosh and Wade. Jame I always thought was overkill, plus I HATED his attitude. That being said, with all this talent I thought we would win. Why don't we run the triangle or some offensive scheme? We have the talent, but no O rotation or set.

hard_candy
11-28-2010, 06:34 PM
The Heat might as hire LeBron as player coach.

iggypop123
11-28-2010, 07:17 PM
The Heat might as hire LeBron as player coach.

i think maverick carter wants it for himself

hard_candy
11-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Your sig is hilarious. :D


It is cause a coach is apart of a team like a player is. So its like asking is it justified to make a trade to upgrade ur roster? Of course because u want to better ur team and riley is a HOF coach. I remember a comment on NBA tv where the analyst asked a question of wether riley would help make this team better and he said "ya, i mean if u were able to get MJ in his prime wouldnt that help any team?"

Basically any move that makes ur team better is always justified. Just because some people on here have turned this into a blame spo or not thing isnt really relevant. This is why i think so many basketball fans got mind f***ed by the whole heat thing anytime they read something they automatically think drama and that something has to be about someone not doing something wether its a player (bosh/lebron) or a coach (spo). People should try actually reading the whole topic and putting their personal feelings about them aside.

ChI_ShIzzLe
11-28-2010, 08:31 PM
http://www.slamdumb.com/images/comics/10_18_10.jpg

thedfactor
11-28-2010, 08:43 PM
Eric Spoelstra doesn't deserve to be fired and if he is I hope he simply leaves the team rather than stay with the organization because it isn't right the way he's being treated.

I'd only like Pat Riley take over to watch him fail as well. He may be a decent coach but if he were to demote ES for himself he only looks like a prick folding to the ongoing pressure of the media, league, and maybe even the team.

hotpotato1092
11-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Yes, I'm not gonna get into the job Spoelstra's done because that's very subjective, but who do you think is going to command the respect of those players, Spoelstra or Pat Riley? Regardless of the strategical advantages Riley would bring, the respect factor is enough for Pat to be on the bench.

GW3 all day
11-28-2010, 08:52 PM
If Spoelstra doesn't lay down the line and take control of his team, the Heat may need Riley to step in and coach this failure of a team. With all that talent, they should win 65+ games a year.

kkruiser86
11-29-2010, 01:45 AM
It is funny how the Heat fans thought this team would be a dynasty, but now they want us to wait on a couple of role players who are garbage anyways. Every negative Heat post, in my opinion, is justified based on what everyone was saying in the summer. This is why ESPN is losing credibility day by day.

hard_candy
11-29-2010, 01:50 AM
This will serve as a cautionary tale for all owners and GM's in the future.

Pkay15
11-29-2010, 05:36 AM
The problem isn't that they are Alpha Males, the problem is that they are checking too much of their ego at the door. They're trying not to hog the ball, Wade and James barely drive anymore and take ill advised 3's and long range jumpers. Miami has two of the best inside players in the league and they're not driving. It's insanity.
As soon as they're up they start shooting these threes. The team could definitely use a big man, but other than that the pieces are there. It's just that these two guys have to attack and be the dominant players they're known to be. Dish it out to Arroyo or House for the threes.
If you remember Wade the year they won it all, he took maybe 15 threes the whole season. He's playing lazy Basketball now.
If Riley would change that I think it would be good for them, but hell for my Celts. Boston 2011!!

Pkay15
11-29-2010, 05:43 AM
I think Spolestra is an okay coach who will probably be great one day. But he's coaching a team that is already there. He's out of his league right now. This team deserves a Riley or Jackson caliber coach.

ragee
11-29-2010, 06:21 AM
I didn't read all the posts but I am sick and tired of all the excuses... Fire Spo and get Riley in the bench asap and let's see what happens... If that fails, I can't wait to see where Lebron and the fans point their fingers next...

To answer the question, yes it would be justified... Since they are performing poorly and Spo is the scapegoat, it would be the right move to get rid of "the problem" and try to salvage the season...