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poleandreel
11-24-2010, 01:25 PM
So now that all of the top PG's are healthy...who would you take?

There all playing at a high level and demonstrating their worth to their team.

Chris Paul is proving how valuable he is by leading his team to one of the top records in the west.

Deron Williams is showing that he doesn't need boozer to make his team competitive.

Russell Westbrook is possibly showing that he is the heart of that thunder team by leading them to two victories without durant. He is averaging over 20 PPG and 8+ assists and could be the best defensive PG.

Rondo- 15 assists per game and the top record in the east...enough said

Derrick Rose- Carrying the bulls right now without boozer and putting up crazy numbers.

Nash- At 36, he looks better than ever. With a group of nobody's he has them playing good basketball. He missed 2 games and the suns went 0-2

Tyreke Evans- He's ok

Stephen Curry- In only his 2nd year in the league he is putting up 20 PPG and 6+assists with 2+ steals and shooting 47% along with 89% free throws.

Brandon Jennings- Off to a slow start but he is showing his capabilities

Raymond Felton- Now that he is in a different system, he is putting up huge numbers. He has always been a great defender but now his offense is coming together as well.

John Wall- The amazing rook who is proving that he is the real deal.

Gators123
11-24-2010, 01:27 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:29 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

+1

hugepatsfan
11-24-2010, 01:32 PM
^ I'd switch Rose and Westbrook.

poleandreel
11-24-2010, 01:35 PM
^ I'd switch Rose and Westbrook.

I dont understand why. Rose is a liability on defense while westbrook is an amazing defender. Westbrook shoots a higher free throw percentage and could score just as many PPG if he was the only guy on the team.

Raph12
11-24-2010, 01:35 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

For now yes, but by the end of the season, it may be Rose over Westbrook...

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:37 PM
^ I'd switch Rose and Westbrook.

not so far this season. Westbrook has been amazing on both sides of the ball

BHF
11-24-2010, 01:40 PM
^ I'd switch Rose and Westbrook.

no no no

Cubsfan365
11-24-2010, 01:47 PM
Rose over Westbrook. He averages more points, more assists, shoots a higher FG%, shoots a higher 3 PT FG%. Rose's defense has looked better this year, and Rose takes over games in the 4th quarter, when Westbrook tends to disappear IMO.

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 01:48 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

+2

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 01:49 PM
Anyone else disappointed in Tyreke Evans?

Furymaker
11-24-2010, 01:49 PM
1 - CP3
2 - D-Will
3- Rondo
4- Rose/Westbrook

- I'd might take both rose and westbrook over rondo , his 14 apg are saving him.
Rose and Westbrook are great PG's , Rose is better on one end and Westbrook on another , depends what your team need .OKC need rebounds Westbrook is doing it , Bulls are top team in rebounds so no need for that huge numbers .

Furymaker
11-24-2010, 01:50 PM
Anyone else disappointed in Tyreke Evans?

i would be that guy :mad:

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:51 PM
Rose over Westbrook. He averages more points, more assists, shoots a higher FG%, shoots a higher 3 PT FG%. Rose's defense has looked better this year, and Rose takes over games in the 4th quarter, when Westbrook tends to disappear IMO.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2011

They are pretty close, but Westbrook is a better defender, and has been better overall so far. Will that stay all year? meh, probably not. But so far, Westbrook is slightly above Rose.

Cubs Win
11-24-2010, 01:51 PM
Anyone else disappointed in Tyreke Evans?

:raises hand: And I'm not even a Kings fan. I actually haven't even seen one Kings game this year, but can anybody tell me why he hasn't looked better?

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:52 PM
1 - CP3
2 - D-Will
3- Rondo
4- Rose/Westbrook

- I'd might take both rose and westbrook over rondo , his 14 apg are saving him.Rose and Westbrook are great PG's , Rose is better on one end and Westbrook on another , depends what your team need .OKC need rebounds Westbrook is doing it , Bulls are top team in rebounds so no need for that huge numbers .

as is his incredible defense so far this season.

DLeeicious
11-24-2010, 01:52 PM
1 - CP3
2 - D-Will
3- Rondo
4- Rose/Westbrook

- I'd might take both rose and westbrook over rondo , his 14 apg are saving him.
Rose and Westbrook are great PG's , Rose is better on one end and Westbrook on another , depends what your team need .OKC need rebounds Westbrook is doing it , Bulls are top team in rebounds so no need for that huge numbers .

^^^ except I would put Rose/Westbrook/Rondo then type what you typed. I think Rondo is better than Rose or Westbrook would be on the Celtics but I think you take Rondo and put him on the Bulls for instance and the Bulls are way worse off.

kswissdaf
11-24-2010, 01:53 PM
1. Rondo
2. Paul
3. D will
4. D rose
5. Wall/Westbrook

Law25
11-24-2010, 01:54 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Westbrook
4. Rose
5. Rondo

I dont get the disrespect towards his game. This kid is going to be great.

tcav701
11-24-2010, 01:55 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

Right answer.

Stunner
11-24-2010, 01:57 PM
Rose has been playing out of his mind yeah Westbrook is playing good defense but those two small samples of Westbrook playing good without Durant is ok but Rose has been doing that for his a whole career but better. If u switch Rose and Westbrook the Bulls would have a worse record i think.

CP3
D-Will
Rondo
Rose
Westbrook/Wall

DaBUU
11-24-2010, 01:59 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rose/Westbrook
5. Rondo

No matter tho, all these guys are grimey competiters. All bring something different, but all will step on your throat to win a game. Love the PG's right now.

nitric
11-24-2010, 01:59 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times. Rose is shooting a career high from 3 (35%) and is having an MVP-caliber season thus far.
25.6/3.8/8.4 on 47.6%FG and 34.8%3PT

Give me Rose and Westbrook over Rondo
CP3
DWill
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

Furymaker
11-24-2010, 02:02 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times. Rose is shooting a career high from 3 (35%) and is having an MVP-caliber season thus far.
25.6/3.8/8.4 on 47.6%FG and 34.8%3PT

Give me Rose and Westbrook over Rondo
CP3
DWill
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

i'm feeling the same way ,but i thought if i write that i'm going to get murdered :D
a lot of rose haters around here

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 02:03 PM
i would be that guy :mad:


:raises hand: And I'm not even a Kings fan. I actually haven't even seen one Kings game this year, but can anybody tell me why he hasn't looked better?

I don't know what happen but he looks like a different player then last years ROY. I like the Kings and am disappointed in his development. I hope DMC isn't that much of a locker room influence. And I hope he hasn't got lazy now that he is known.

Gators123
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times. Rose is shooting a career high from 3 (35%) and is having an MVP-caliber season thus far.
25.6/3.8/8.4 on 47.6%FG and 34.8%3PT

Give me Rose and Westbrook over Rondo
CP3
DWill
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

Yeah I guess Noah's 15 points 13 rebounds per game and Dengs 18 points 6 rebounds don't help the team at all.

One day Bulls fans say Rose plays with scrubs, the next day the same Bulls fans think Noah should be a All-star. Can't have it both ways.

DaBUU
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times. Rose is shooting a career high from 3 (35%) and is having an MVP-caliber season thus far.
25.6/3.8/8.4 on 47.6%FG and 34.8%3PT

Give me Rose and Westbrook over Rondo
CP3
DWill
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

I dont think anyone can say Rose is def better than Westbrook or vice versa. Westbrook is having a great season too and putting similar numbers to Derrick. RW's game is helped by Durant, but Rose's game is helped by having a player like Joakim "The Beast" Noah. Both have been great this year, i think its cool to say theyre about even right now considering their different intagibles.

Rentzias
11-24-2010, 02:07 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times.

Looked fine to me with the two wins without Durant, albeit one against the Bucks, but the big W AT Boston.

I'll have to go push with Rose/Westbrook right now.

DLeeicious
11-24-2010, 02:08 PM
Yeah I guess Noah's 15 points 13 rebounds per game and Dengs 18 points 6 rebounds don't help the team at all.

One day Bulls fans say Rose plays with scrubs, the next day the same Bulls fans think Noah should be a All-star. Can't have it both ways.

We stay consistent that the Pistons are all scrubs though...

poleandreel
11-24-2010, 02:08 PM
How is Westbrook better than Rose? Rose is carrying his team on his own whereas Westbrook has Durant to back him up at times. Rose is shooting a career high from 3 (35%) and is having an MVP-caliber season thus far.
25.6/3.8/8.4 on 47.6%FG and 34.8%3PT

Give me Rose over Rondo as well.
CP3
DWill
Rose
Westbrook
Rondo

Easy:

Westbrook's Defense >>>> Rose's Defense
Westbrook's Free thow percentage>>>>> Rose's
Their points are pretty much equal
Their assists are also equal
Turnovers are equal
Athleticism is equal
Their mid range is the same
Rose has a better 3 point shot

Westbrook 2 Rose 1
Head to head this year. Rose 12-31 28 points
Westbrook 28 points on 8-15

nitric
11-24-2010, 02:08 PM
Yeah I guess Noah's 15 points 13 rebounds per game and Dengs 18 points 6 rebounds don't help the team at all.

One day Bulls fans say Rose plays with scrubs, the next day the same Bulls fans think Noah should be a All-star. Can't have it both ways.

Most of Noah's shots come from Rose breaking down defenses and going to the rim which allows Joakim for a putback. Joakim in no way is an offensive threat. Luol Deng is awful, nuff said. Neither of those two players are Kevin Durant, who requires double teams. Who gets double teamed on the Bulls? Oh yeah Rose.

nitric
11-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Easy:

Westbrook's Defense >>>> Rose's Defense
Westbrook's Free thow percentage>>>>> Rose's
Their points are pretty much equal
Their assists are also equal
Turnovers are equal
Athleticism is equal
Their mid range is the same
Rose has a better 3 point shot

Westbrook 2 Rose 1
Head to head this year. Rose 12-31 28 points
Westbrook 28 points on 8-15

Awesome post

sp1derm00
11-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Hi guys,

I would just like to point out that Tony Parker is averaging 20ppg on 55% shooting, 8apg, and 4rpg

Stunner
11-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Easy:

Westbrook's Defense >>>> Rose's Defense
Westbrook's Free thow percentage>>>>> Rose's
Their points are pretty much equal
Their assists are also equal
Turnovers are equal
Athleticism is equal
Their mid range is the same
Rose has a better 3 point shot

Westbrook 2 Rose 1
Head to head this year. Rose 12-31 28 points
Westbrook 28 points on 8-15

Westbrook
Westbrook
Rose
Same
Same
Same
Rose
Rose

nitric
11-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Looked fine to me with the two wins without Durant, albeit one against the Bucks, but the big W AT Boston.

I'll have to go push with Rose/Westbrook right now.

Look what happened to Russell in that fourth quarter. He faced double teams that KD usually faces and kept bricking up shots.

edit: Russel is an amazing PG, I have him 4th above Rondo so don't think I don't think hes great

Giraffes Rule
11-24-2010, 02:11 PM
Tony Parker should be mentioned with the best point guards. He's not top 5, but he's averaging just as many assists per game as Westbrook. He's not averaging as many points per game, but that's just because the Spurs have so many players that are scoring right now, where the Thunder really have two main scorers.

EDIT: Not saying he's better than Westbrook, just saying he's comparable to the rest of the best point guards.

DLeeicious
11-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Easy:

Westbrook's Defense >>>> Rose's Defense
Westbrook's Free thow percentage>>>>> Rose's
Their points are pretty much equal
Their assists are also equal
Turnovers are equal
Athleticism is equal
Their mid range is the same
Rose has a better 3 point shot

Westbrook 2 Rose 1
Head to head this year. Rose 12-31 28 points
Westbrook 28 points on 8-15

With that "formula" Westbrook beats Rondo like 7-1. Explain how Westbrook is 7x better than Rondo using your "formula" above please...

DaBUU
11-24-2010, 02:12 PM
wow this went downhill in a hurry

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:14 PM
wow this went downhill in a hurry

the names, "Rondo" and "Rose" are pretty much guarantees that the thread goes south

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:15 PM
When does Westbrook see SF guarding him? When does he see about 5 different people trying to slow him down? I mean the lakers total focus on defense was rose with constant double teaming. Does westbrook get the same attention as rose? No

DaBUU
11-24-2010, 02:15 PM
We stay consistent that the Pistons are all scrubs though...

deleted by me

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:16 PM
When does Westbrook see SF guarding him? When does he see about 5 different people trying to slow him down? I mean the lakers total focus on defense was rose with constant double teaming. Does westbrook get the same attention as rose? No

watch round 1 of the playoffs out west last year. The Lakers had to adjust to Westbrook destroying them by putting their best wing defender on him

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:19 PM
watch round 1 of the playoffs out west last year. The Lakers had to adjust to Westbrook destroying them by putting their best wing defender on him

U mean like on game 7?

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:21 PM
U mean like on game 7?

I simply pointed out that yes, Westbrook has played games where the other team needs to adjust because thier PG can do nothing to stop him.
I am not saying Westbrook is better. But I am saying he has played slightly better so far this season. Do I expect that to continue? Quite honestly, no. Boozer will give Rose an added weapon to create some seperation

Cubsfan365
11-24-2010, 02:22 PM
Yeah I guess Noah's 15 points 13 rebounds per game and Dengs 18 points 6 rebounds don't help the team at all.

One day Bulls fans say Rose plays with scrubs, the next day the same Bulls fans think Noah should be a All-star. Can't have it both ways.
I'm guessing you haven't seen Deng play

Gators123
11-24-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm guessing you haven't seen Deng play

He's had some bad games and some great games. Hes not a scrub.

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:27 PM
I simply pointed out that yes, Westbrook has played games where the other team needs to adjust because thier PG can do nothing to stop him.
I am not saying Westbrook is better. But I am saying he has played slightly better so far this season. Do I expect that to continue? Quite honestly, no. Boozer will give Rose an added weapon to create some seperation

What I was trying to point out though is that the other teams primary focus is to slow down rose. Westbrook has the advantage of having a person like kd because he is the primary focus in okc. I am not saying rose is better and that Westbrook sucks, just that they are in different situations. Rondo/westbrook/rose are different PG's but each one is valuable to their team.

WeBallin
11-24-2010, 02:28 PM
In this order for me

Rose
Rondo
paul( i think Paul is auditioning for his new contract)
Williams

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:35 PM
My list would be this

1. Cp3
2. Williams
3. Rondo/rose/westrook

nitric
11-24-2010, 02:36 PM
My list would be this

1. Cp3
2. Williams
3. Rondo/rose/westrook

Now that I think about it, I kind of agree. There really isn't a clear 3rd best PG in the league

tcav701
11-24-2010, 02:36 PM
In this order for me

Rose
Rondo
paul( i think Paul is auditioning for his new contract)
Williams

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:37 PM
What I was trying to point out though is that the other teams primary focus is to slow down rose. Westbrook has the advantage of having a person like kd because he is the primary focus in okc. I am not saying rose is better and that Westbrook sucks, just that they are in different situations. Rondo/westbrook/rose are different PG's but each one is valuable to their team.

fair enough. You also know that if Rose had Durant on his team, Durant would still be the primary focus.
And its a long season. I like both, Rose has shown to be beast in the playoffs, so I still take him in the long run

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:38 PM
In this order for me

Rose
Rondo
paul( i think Paul is auditioning for his new contract)
Williams

cmon dude

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:42 PM
fair enough. You also know that if Rose had Durant on his team, Durant would still be the primary focus.
And its a long season. I like both, Rose has shown to be beast in the playoffs, so I still take him in the long run

I agree. Rose would focus more of his attention on distributing/creating than shooting.

Tmo440
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
Okay come on guys you need to give Rose more respect than you are giving him. He is the second best point guard in the league right now with out question. He is averaging 25 points and 8 assists per night, when Chris Paul is only averaging 16 and 10. Derron Williams is only averaging 20 points 9 assists per night. So if you go based on numbers Rose is the best point guard in the league right now. IMO he has been the MVP of the league so far, and if he keeps this up he will be MVP. SO give him some ****ing respect and quit putting him fourth because in my opinnion he is the best in the league.

tcav701
11-24-2010, 02:48 PM
Okay come on guys you need to give Rose more respect than you are giving him. He is the second best point guard in the league right now with out question. He is averaging 25 points and 8 assists per night, when Chris Paul is only averaging 16 and 10. Derron Williams is only averaging 20 points 9 assists per night. So if you go based on numbers Rose is the best point guard in the league right now. IMO he has been the MVP of the league so far, and if he keeps this up he will be MVP. SO give him some ****ing respect and quit putting him fourth because in my opinnion he is the best in the league.

Dude,

you are a sportscenter fan. Look at how many shots he takes and you will get your answer on why his PPG is the highest.

He is an amazing offensive talent but it is also important for people to play defense and he has a long way to go in that area.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Okay come on guys you need to give Rose more respect than you are giving him. He is the second best point guard in the league right now with out question. He is averaging 25 points and 8 assists per night, when Chris Paul is only averaging 16 and 10. Derron Williams is only averaging 20 points 9 assists per night. So if you go based on numbers Rose is the best point guard in the league right now. IMO he has been the MVP of the league so far, and if he keeps this up he will be MVP. SO give him some ****ing respect and quit putting him fourth because in my opinnion he is the best in the league.

PM me if you would like some stats sites that actually tell you something. Per game numbers don't mean squat

Gators123
11-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Okay come on guys you need to give Rose more respect than you are giving him. He is the second best point guard in the league right now with out question. He is averaging 25 points and 8 assists per night, when Chris Paul is only averaging 16 and 10. Derron Williams is only averaging 20 points 9 assists per night. So if you go based on numbers Rose is the best point guard in the league right now. IMO he has been the MVP of the league so far, and if he keeps this up he will be MVP. SO give him some ****ing respect and quit putting him fourth because in my opinnion he is the best in the league.

No.

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 02:51 PM
Okay come on guys you need to give Rose more respect than you are giving him. He is the second best point guard in the league right now with out question. He is averaging 25 points and 8 assists per night, when Chris Paul is only averaging 16 and 10. Derron Williams is only averaging 20 points 9 assists per night. So if you go based on numbers Rose is the best point guard in the league right now. IMO he has been the MVP of the league so far, and if he keeps this up he will be MVP. SO give him some ****ing respect and quit putting him fourth because in my opinnion he is the best in the league.

Saying he is the 5th best pg in the league is disrespectful?

Hustlenomics
11-24-2010, 02:53 PM
Rondo.
and for you people saying switch Rose and westbrook and blah da blah da on teams think..would Rose lead the bulls to the playoffs in the western conference? ..NO

ewing
11-24-2010, 02:54 PM
:raises hand: And I'm not even a Kings fan. I actually haven't even seen one Kings game this year, but can anybody tell me why he hasn't looked better?

He cant shoot

Gators123
11-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Sophomore slump?

Southsideheat
11-24-2010, 02:56 PM
It took everybody a while to realize Rose had a jumpshot, and it took just as long for everybody to realize he could distribute. Now its going to take a while for everybody to realize Rose can play defense. He just continues to prove people wrong every year.

tcav701
11-24-2010, 03:01 PM
It took everybody a while to realize Rose had a jumpshot, and it took just as long for everybody to realize he could distribute. Now its going to take a while for everybody to realize Rose can play defense. He just continues to prove people wrong every year.

He prove he could shoot when he made shots.
He proved he could distribute when he started passing.
So untill he plays good defense, people will say he doesnt.

I dont see why you are confused.

Cubsfan365
11-24-2010, 03:07 PM
He's had some bad games and some great games. Hes not a scrub.
He's not a scrub, but he is far from consistent. For every great game he has, he has 2 or 3 bad games. He plays out of control and makes too many mistakes, but that's just my opinion.

Cubsfan365
11-24-2010, 03:09 PM
Dude,

you are a sportscenter fan. Look at how many shots he takes and you will get your answer on why his PPG is the highest.

He is an amazing offensive talent but it is also important for people to play defense and he has a long way to go in that area.
Rose plays a different role for the Bulls than the others do.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:09 PM
He's not a scrub, but he is far from consistent. For every great game he has, he has 2 or 3 bad games. He plays out of control and makes too many mistakes, but that's just my opinion.

you just explained Corey Brewer on steroids

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:10 PM
Rose plays a different role for the Bulls than the others do.

his post was questioned because he is attempting to use stats when he doesn't know how to use them. There is no defense for how wrong the reasoning is

DerekRE_3
11-24-2010, 03:13 PM
:raises hand: And I'm not even a Kings fan. I actually haven't even seen one Kings game this year, but can anybody tell me why he hasn't looked better?

Teams are clogging the lane on him and he's struggling with his jumpshot. His teammates need to start hitting outside shots so defenses have to play him semi honest.

nitric
11-24-2010, 03:13 PM
If people watched last nights game against LA, I hope you understand why Rose has to take so many shots.

tcav701
11-24-2010, 03:16 PM
Rose plays a different role for the Bulls than the others do.

Trust me I know this.

But this guy was putting rose at 1 based on PPG. If CP3 or Deron took as many shots i think the would be over 30PPG easy.

Baller1
11-24-2010, 03:16 PM
1. Williams
2. Paul
3. Westbrook/Rondo/Rose
6. Curry

tcav701
11-24-2010, 03:17 PM
If people watched last nights game against LA, I hope you understand why Rose has to take so many shots.

We understad why.

It's not a knock on him, he has to carry the Bulls. The point I am making is hi stats are where they are because of how many shots he takes. 30 shots from my PG is too much no matter who else is on the floor.

EDIT: Bulls fans take it as disrespect when we say Rondo or Westbrook is a better player than Rose ans they shouldnt.

A. Rose has a higher ceiling than both these guys.
B. Though Rose is the best at what he does (penetrate, score, break down defenses) there are other Pgs that are great in many areas more contingent with a true PG.

Doesnt mean there cant be 5 VERY good PGs.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:20 PM
1. Williams
2. Paul
3. Westbrook/Rondo/Rose
6. Curry

dude, how do you have Paul below Williams?

nitric
11-24-2010, 03:21 PM
We understad why.

It's not a knock on him, he has to carry the Bulls. The point I am making is hi stats are where they are because of how many shots he takes. 30 shots from my PG is too much no matter who else is on the floor.

I expect his FGA to go down as Boozer comes back. Rose finally has a legit #2 who can play the pick n roll and pick n pop to perfection. My biggest gripe on Rose is him not initiating contact, he tries too much to avoid contact which leads to missed layups sometimes

alencp3
11-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Anyone else disappointed in Tyreke Evans?

I thought he was going to put 23+ points and 7+ as with all the big mans they got, he is also shooting very poor
Im disappointed

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:26 PM
I thought he was going to put 23+ points and 7+ as with all the big mans they got, he is also shooting very poor
Im disappointed

as Derek commented, Tyreke's shooters are not hitting at a high enough clip, so the defenses are packing in the lanes. Until they start making outside shots, Tyreke will be limited to a 17 foot jump shooter, of which kills his game

Southsideheat
11-24-2010, 03:29 PM
He prove he could shoot when he made shots.
He proved he could distribute when he started passing.
So untill he plays good defense, people will say he doesnt.

I dont see why you are confused.

Why are you implying that i'm confused? Confused with what?

haggis
11-24-2010, 03:29 PM
We understad why.

It's not a knock on him, he has to carry the Bulls. The point I am making is hi stats are where they are because of how many shots he takes. 30 shots from my PG is too much no matter who else is on the floor.

EDIT: Bulls fans take it as disrespect when we say Rondo or Westbrook is a better player than Rose ans they shouldnt.

A. Rose has a higher ceiling than both these guys.
B. Though Rose is the best at what he does (penetrate, score, break down defenses) there are other Pgs that are great in many areas more contingent with a true PG.

Doesnt mean there cant be 5 VERY good PGs.

^this

While my opinions on the "rankings" might differ, they are all VERY talented, but each brings a different value to their respective teams. Obviously you have CP3 and Deron at the top of any list, but the next 3 are tied for me. You want a distributor/defending PG, you take Rondo. You want a solid all-around PG that can score above average, defend with the best of them and distribute, you take Westbrook. If you want a scoring beast and distributor you take Rose. Simple as that. Their skill sets are so different for playing the same position that anyone can make a case for all of these guys as "who is the best". All I know is that the PG position is becoming the strength of the NBA, and all of these young guys have great years ahead of them and as a fan of the game, I'm really excited....

Chronz
11-24-2010, 03:38 PM
Awesome post

seriously?

Baller1
11-24-2010, 03:49 PM
dude, how do you have Paul below Williams?

The question in the original post is "Who would you take?". I've said it for about 4-5 years now, if I were to start a team with a PG, I would take Williams. Personally, I think his combination of strength, ability to facilitate, and ability to take over in the fourth is incredible.

Just my opinion, I would want Williams.

Mr Moody
11-24-2010, 03:49 PM
Umm williams def isnt the second best point guard so far this season... Look uo the numbers

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:54 PM
The question in the original post is "Who would you take?". I've said it for about 4-5 years now, if I were to start a team with a PG, I would take Williams. Personally, I think his combination of strength, ability to facilitate, and ability to take over in the fourth is incredible.

Just my opinion, I would want Williams.

fair enough, looking that far down the line, seeing as CP3 has cause for concern due to his knee down the line.
But for this year so far, and their recent past, CP3 is better kinda easily

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:55 PM
Umm williams def isnt the second best point guard so far this season... Look uo the numbers

what numbers?

Napps
11-24-2010, 03:57 PM
No love for DHarris .. ;(

ewing
11-24-2010, 04:04 PM
as Derek commented, Tyreke's shooters are not hitting at a high enough clip, so the defenses are packing in the lanes. Until they start making outside shots, Tyreke will be limited to a 17 foot jump shooter, of which kills his game

If your a scoring guard and you cant hit a 17 footer its going to hurt your game regardless of how anyone else is playing. I'll admit his J isn't as disgusting to look at this year and I would think that he put some work in on it but if Evens is to become a legit star he's going to need to learn to hit that shot sometimes.

SouthSideRookie
11-24-2010, 04:07 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

^Rose and Westbrook are pretty close IMO.


watch round 1 of the playoffs out west last year. The Lakers had to adjust to Westbrook destroying them by putting their best wing defender on him

The Lakers get abused by quick point guards. Two seasons ago the Rockets minus Yao took the Lakers to seven mainly due to Brooks going off on them.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 04:11 PM
If your a scoring guard and you cant hit a 17 footer its going to hurt your game regardless of how anyone else is playing. I'll admit his J isn't as disgusting to look at this year and I would think that he put some work in on it but if Evens is to become a legit star he's going to need to learn to hit that shot sometimes.

Evans ability to attack the rim through lanes is awesome though, and highly responsible for his freshman outbreak. If his teammates aren't hitting their outside shots, you clog the lane on elite penetrators.
And of course, if Evans is going to enter the upper echelon of stars, that 18 footer needs to start going down consistently

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 04:13 PM
^Rose and Westbrook are pretty close IMO.



The Lakers get abused by quick point guards. Two seasons ago the Rockets minus Yao took the Lakers to seven mainly due to Brooks going off on them.

you hate Derek Fisher
I have done it. I completed the 5 man rotation of Lakers, and the haters out there

j/k. Its been documented that its one of the biggest weaknesses of the Lakers.

Sir Buckets
11-24-2010, 04:19 PM
CP3
D-Will
Rose
Rondo
Westbrook

YoungOne
11-24-2010, 04:26 PM
pls don't overrate westbrook, i mean he is playing great so far, but at times he plays out of control and turning the ball over or taking bad shots at bunches.
I saw the celtics-thunder game and westbrook kept boston in the game at the end after playing great for 3 quarters..

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 04:34 PM
pls don't overrate westbrook, i mean he is playing great so far, but at times he plays out of control and turning the ball over or taking bad shots at bunches.
I saw the celtics-thunder game and westbrook kept boston in the game at the end after playing great for 3 quarters..

Rondo turns the ball over way more than Westbrook, who barely turns it over more than Rose. Just saying

ewing
11-24-2010, 04:34 PM
Evans ability to attack the rim through lanes is awesome though, and highly responsible for his freshman outbreak. If his teammates aren't hitting their outside shots, you clog the lane on elite penetrators.
And of course, if Evans is going to enter the upper echelon of stars, that 18 footer needs to start going down consistently


Evans drive is awesome and of course its why he put up the numbers he did last year but i think being on a bad team and being a guy that people needed to learn how to defend also contributed. I see his dip coming from the fact that everyone shows up for games at this point in the season, his defender is going to give him any J he wants, and help is going to be waiting for him. I dont see that changing b/c Donte Green hits a couple of jumshots.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 04:36 PM
Evans drive is awesome and of course its why he put up the numbers he did last year but i think being on a bad team and being a guy that people needed to learn how to defend also contributed. I see his dip coming from the fact that everyone shows up for games at this point in the season, his defender is going to give him any J he wants, and help is going to be waiting for him. I dont see that changing b/c Donte Green hits a couple of jumshots.

its his whole team. The reason Cleveland succeeded in winning so many games even with Bron's suspect perimeter shooting is they kept defenses honest. The Kings don't do that.
You and I are agreeing here, with different explanations dude.

aZekuiS
11-24-2010, 04:37 PM
We stay consistent that the Pistons are all scrubs though...

If the paparazzi got a naked pic of Rose it's pretty safe to say it would be on all the bulls fans sigs. they love 1 and done zilches.

Rentzias
11-24-2010, 04:39 PM
The question in the original post is "Who would you take?". I've said it for about 4-5 years now, if I were to start a team with a PG, I would take Williams. Personally, I think his combination of strength, ability to facilitate, and ability to take over in the fourth is incredible.

Just my opinion, I would want Williams.

I rank Paul ahead of Williams contextually, because of what he is to and what he does for the team, but I agree that if I had to start a team, I would also take D-Will. They're 1 and 1a to me, but D-Will's size and strength are too good to pass up. CP3 can take over late, but just in a different way.

D1JM
11-24-2010, 04:47 PM
its his whole team. The reason Cleveland succeeded in winning so many games even with Bron's suspect perimeter shooting is they kept defenses honest. The Kings don't do that.
You and I are agreeing here, with different explanations dude.

can you make a sticky thread of the pg debate? We probably get about 5 threads a week asking whose your favorite five pg

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 04:57 PM
can you make a sticky thread of the pg debate? We probably get about 5 threads a week asking whose your favorite five pg

at this rate it may need its own forum

The NBA Point Guard Forum

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm actually happy with Stuckey. The rest of our team is where we need a change. Stuckey has been really good this year. If you don't believe me, check his numbers before you slam him on here.

D1JM
11-24-2010, 05:00 PM
player G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Rose 12 455 22.8 .543 .508 2.6 8.5 5.6 41.9 1.5 1.2 14.3 32.0 110 107 1.0 0.5 1.5 0.158
Rondo 12 475 20.0 .511 .508 5.6 9.7 7.7 53.2 3.2 0.5 25.1 17.6 111 100 0.9 0.9 1.8 0.177
Westbrook 14 521 24.7 .558 .444 4.8 11.7 8.3 41.5 2.7 1.0 16.1 30.4 112 108 1.4 0.4 1.8 0.169

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:02 PM
I'm actually happy with Stuckey. The rest of our team is where we need a change. Stuckey has been really good this year. If you don't believe me, check his numbers before you slam him on here.

he has been very good. But not as good as some others. His efficiency is at an all time high however.

D1JM
11-24-2010, 05:02 PM
at this rate it may need its own forum

The NBA Point Guard Forum

:laugh:

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:05 PM
he has been very good. But not as good as some others. His efficiency is at an all time high however.

I wasn't comparing him to the elite PG's. I just think he is flying under the radar this year. He's having a really good year and he has improved and is about 12 lbs lighter than last year.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:09 PM
I wasn't comparing him to the elite PG's. I just think he is flying under the radar this year. He's having a really good year and he has improved and is about 12 lbs lighter than last year.

yep. Watched Detroit twice this year, and he looks more like a PG than a tweener. And he is making better decisions, and creating easier looks for himself, hence his PER being much higher. He is also not turning the ball over. Easily his best season so far.
But he will get overlooked due to there being great PG's on great teams unfortunately.
And wouldn't you prefer he fly under the radar??

jp611
11-24-2010, 05:10 PM
rose is better than rondo and westbrook

Rentzias
11-24-2010, 05:15 PM
player G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Rose 12 455 22.8 .543 .508 2.6 8.5 5.6 41.9 1.5 1.2 14.3 32.0 110 107 1.0 0.5 1.5 0.158
Rondo 12 475 20.0 .511 .508 5.6 9.7 7.7 53.2 3.2 0.5 25.1 17.6 111 100 0.9 0.9 1.8 0.177
Westbrook 14 521 24.7 .558 .444 4.8 11.7 8.3 41.5 2.7 1.0 16.1 30.4 112 108 1.4 0.4 1.8 0.169

Deron Williams has never had a PER of higher than 21.1 and is at about 20 this year; would you put these guys ahead of him in rankings?

MJ-BULLS
11-24-2010, 05:17 PM
once boozer comes back he will overtake rondo and westbrook.
heck, rose is already better than Westbrook by a small margin, because Westbrook is the better defender at the moment. once rose improves on his D and boozer comes back he will over take rondo.

D1JM
11-24-2010, 05:17 PM
Deron Williams has never had a PER of higher than 21.1 and is at about 20 this year; would you put these guys ahead of him in rankings?

no. My list is

1. CP3
2. Deron
3. rose/rondo/westbrook

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:20 PM
yep. Watched Detroit twice this year, and he looks more like a PG than a tweener. And he is making better decisions, and creating easier looks for himself, hence his PER being much higher. He is also not turning the ball over. Easily his best season so far.
But he will get overlooked due to there being great PG's on great teams unfortunately.
And wouldn't you prefer he fly under the radar??

Yup, your right.

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:21 PM
It's between Rondo and Rose for me

Mr Moody
11-24-2010, 05:23 PM
what numbers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=willide01&y2=2011

Thats Rose vs Williams

Basically identical

1. Paul


2. Rondo/Rose/Williams/Westbrook

3. Nash/Parker

YoungOne
11-24-2010, 05:23 PM
Rondo turns the ball over way more than Westbrook, who barely turns it over more than Rose. Just saying

rondo at 3.7, westbrook at 4.0 :eyebrow:

THE_FLASH_21
11-24-2010, 05:30 PM
1.Deron
2.Paul
3.Westbrook
4.Rose
5.Parker or Nash

Mr Moody
11-24-2010, 05:31 PM
rondo at 3.7, westbrook at 4.0 :eyebrow:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2011

TOV%
Rondo: 25.1
Westbrook:16.1
:eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:32 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=willide01&y2=2011

Thats Rose vs Williams

Basically identical

1. Paul


2. Rondo/Rose/Williams/Westbrook

3. Nash/Parker


ah, I misunderstood your claim. I basically thought you were throwing Deron down the line. If you want to look at it like above, I am cool with that

hgtiger32
11-24-2010, 05:34 PM
Brandon Jennings is actually having a pretty decent year

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:35 PM
rondo at 3.7, westbrook at 4.0 :eyebrow:

Westbrook is involved in over 30% of all possessions while he is on the floor. Rondo only 17.4%. Westbrook turns it over 16.3% of the time he is involved in a possession, Rondo well over 25%.

You need to make sure and factor in usage and turnover rates. Those per game numbers don't mean a lot. Its what seperates CP3 from the others. he doesn't turn the ball over.

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:36 PM
ah, I misunderstood your claim. I basically thought you were throwing Deron down the line. If you want to look at it like above, I am cool with that

What are the timberWolves missing?

Flynn
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Kevin Love
Darko

A center? What's going on with Rubio? I know this is off-topic but I never get any news on the Wolves

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:38 PM
What are the timberWolves missing?

Flynn
Wes Johnson
Michael Beasley
Kevin Love
Darko

A center? What's going on with Rubio? I know this is off-topic but I never get any news on the Wolves

A center (if Darko played like he did the last few games for good, nevermind on that claim. Not happening most likely). Rubio will most likely be over next season.
Other than that, they need to grow up. And at some point, some of that young talent will need to be moved for a vet or two.
2 years dude, and we will be knocking on the door of the playoffs, I am almost sure of it. 4 years from now, who knows.

Visit the Wolves forum. its actually quite active. But many of them don't post out here, cause PSD loves to bash the Wolves, and we only have a few defenders of the peace :)

YoungOne
11-24-2010, 05:38 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rondora01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2011

TOV%
Rondo: 25.1
Westbrook:16.1
:eyebrow:

thats because westbrook takes way more shots and u can't turn the ball over on shots
..but the turnovers wasn't really my point anyway...

Mr Moody
11-24-2010, 05:40 PM
Brandon Jennings is actually having a pretty decent year

Yeah he is playing well, he just needs to work on his FG% before he can even be in the conversation of a top pg

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:40 PM
thats because westbrook takes way more shots and u can't turn the ball over on shots
..but the turnovers wasn't really my point anyway...

then why post those numbers as your only text? And you are right, if Rondo could shoot a lick, he probably would drop his turnover rate. So?

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:40 PM
Yeah he is playing well, he just needs to work on his FG% before he can even be in the conversation of a top pg

he reminds me of Tony Parker. Has that pretty floater, but needs the 18 footer. It will come

Giraffes Rule
11-24-2010, 05:41 PM
1) Tony Parker
2) CP3
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Derrick Rose/Rajon Rondo



The views and opinions in this post do not reflect the views and opinions of Giraffes Rule.

Mr Moody
11-24-2010, 05:41 PM
thats because westbrook takes way more shots and u can't turn the ball over on shots
..but the turnovers wasn't really my point anyway...

Basically it comes down to vastly different roles

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:41 PM
1) Tony Parker
2) CP3
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Derrick Rose/Rajon Rondo



The views and opinions in this post do not reflect the views and opinions of Giraffes Rule.

curveball!

SteveNash
11-24-2010, 05:44 PM
1. Deron
2. Paul
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Wall
6. Curry
7. Evans
8. Nash
9. Rose
10. Jennings
11. Felton

YoungOne
11-24-2010, 05:45 PM
then why post those numbers as your only text? And you are right, if Rondo could shoot a lick, he probably would drop his turnover rate. So?

I just wanted to say that westbrook has strechtes where he plays out of control ( taking many bad shots, turning the ball over..)
and yeah I got carried away with the turnovers..

Baller1
11-24-2010, 05:45 PM
1) Tony Parker
2) CP3
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Derrick Rose/Rajon Rondo



The views and opinions in this post do not reflect the views and opinions of Giraffes Rule.

No way Parker is the best PG in the league, but I do agree that he doesn't get enough credit. When healthy, he's almost unstoppable offensively.

ewing
11-24-2010, 05:46 PM
its his whole team. The reason Cleveland succeeded in winning so many games even with Bron's suspect perimeter shooting is they kept defenses honest. The Kings don't do that.
You and I are agreeing here, with different explanations dude.

I dont think so. You cant start defending LeBron James from the paint. He might not be a consistent jumpshooter but if you give him absolutely any J he wants from the mid-range he will burn you. I dont think you can say that about Evans. He's a gaurd and I dont think you can be a highly successful scoring gaurd and shoot like DeSagana Diop

fadedmario
11-24-2010, 05:47 PM
A center (if Darko played like he did the last few games for good, nevermind on that claim. Not happening most likely). Rubio will most likely be over next season.
Other than that, they need to grow up. And at some point, some of that young talent will need to be moved for a vet or two.
2 years dude, and we will be knocking on the door of the playoffs, I am almost sure of it. 4 years from now, who knows.

Visit the Wolves forum. its actually quite active. But many of them don't post out here, cause PSD loves to bash the Wolves, and we only have a few defenders of the peace :)

I'm a Kevin Love fan. I like the Wolves

D1JM
11-24-2010, 05:48 PM
1. Deron
2. Paul
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Wall
6. Curry
7. Evans
8. Nash
9. Rose
10. Jennings
11. Felton

wow rose actually made SteveNash list

FadeAwayLikeMJ
11-24-2010, 05:49 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Rose


agreed.

subject to change tho... obviously

SteveNash
11-24-2010, 05:52 PM
wow rose actually made SteveNash list

Why wouldn't he?

MJ-BULLS
11-24-2010, 05:53 PM
1. Deron
2. Paul
3. Rondo
4. Westbrook
5. Wall
6. Curry
7. Evans
8. Nash
9. Rose
10. Jennings
11. Felton

Wall over curry and rose. wow.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:54 PM
I just wanted to say that westbrook has strechtes where he plays out of control ( taking many bad shots, turning the ball over..)
and yeah I got carried away with the turnovers..

oh no doubt he does. But he is pretty solid overall taking care of the ball.
And you made a great point actually. If Rondo wasn't terrified to take open shots, he woudn't have those 1-2 times a game where he makes an ill advised drive and whips the ball to the fans, thereby cutting his turnover rate

nitric
11-24-2010, 05:54 PM
Why wouldn't he?

because he's not a PG

Giraffes Rule
11-24-2010, 05:54 PM
No way Parker is the best PG in the league, but I do agree that he doesn't get enough credit. When healthy, he's almost unstoppable offensively.

I know, I just wanted to piss some people off and get Parker some consideration. :p I would put him in the top five though, at the 3/4 spot with Westbrook and maybe Steve Nash as well.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 05:55 PM
I dont think so. You cant start defending LeBron James from the paint. He might not be a consistent jumpshooter but if you give him absolutely any J he wants from the mid-range he will burn you. I dont think you can say that about Evans. He's a gaurd and I dont think you can be a highly successful scoring gaurd and shoot like DeSagana Diop

I agreed with you dude haha, that his shot needs to improve. But I can GUARANTEE he would be playing better if his shooters were knocking down shots. You are trying to say what he needs to do to become a great guard, and I agree. But I am also saying that right now, today, if his team could consistently force defenses to be honest, Evans would be playing much better.

SteveNash
11-24-2010, 05:57 PM
because he's not a PG

Evans isn't a PG...

vantroi775
11-24-2010, 05:58 PM
There sure are some professional R-***** here naming Felton ahead of guys like Parker and Harris. And by the way a good first few weeks does not make you a top tier point guard.

YoungOne
11-24-2010, 05:59 PM
oh no doubt he does. But he is pretty solid overall taking care of the ball.
And you made a great point actually. If Rondo wasn't terrified to take open shots, he woudn't have those 1-2 times a game where he makes an ill advised drive and whips the ball to the fans, thereby cutting his turnover rate

yeah rondo overpasses at times even when he has open layups, but the more confidence he will get in his jumper the more shots he will take
i'm looking forward to see what he does in 2 years without kg, shaq and rayray

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 06:01 PM
yeah rondo overpasses at times even when he has open layups, but the more confidence he will get in his jumper the more shots he will take
i'm looking forward to see what he does in 2 years without kg, shaq and rayray

trust me, all the Rose fans are salivating as well haha. They are hoping he falls flat on his face. I figure by then Rondo will have enough tricks up his sleeve to not be bothered.

DwayneMVPwade
11-24-2010, 06:04 PM
Elite Point Guards
1. CP3
2. Deron
3.Rose
4.Westbrook

All-star Point Guards
Curry
Tyreke Evans (He is playing pretty well, just not playing PG postion as much because Beno Udrih
Nash
Wall, from what I saw so far
Rondo, Not a big fan of Rondo because he lacks scoring abilities. (Also a question: Who thinks Rondo is the Point Guard today without the Big 3 helping him out?)

Average Point Guard
1. Felton, put him by himself and he will only be average

Just my opinion

D1JM
11-24-2010, 06:09 PM
trust me, all the Rose fans are salivating as well haha. They are hoping he falls flat on his face. I figure by then Rondo will have enough tricks up his sleeve to not be bothered.

lol

Hustlenomics
11-24-2010, 06:29 PM
then why post those numbers as your only text? And you are right, if Rondo could shoot a lick, he probably would drop his turnover rate. So?

Rondo has been hitting that 15 + ft jumpshot when he's open

Cubs Win
11-24-2010, 06:29 PM
All I have to say is Rose is showing every game why he's a top 3 PG in this league.

Byronicle
11-24-2010, 06:36 PM
Westbrook is banging

anyone that could make a baller like Rondo bust both his ankles, and beat the Celtics while shorthanded especially missing Durant...you got to be good

hugepatsfan
11-24-2010, 06:51 PM
trust me, all the Rose fans are salivating as well haha. They are hoping he falls flat on his face. I figure by then Rondo will have enough tricks up his sleeve to not be bothered.

I don't think Rondo will have any "tricks up his sleeves." He'll just keep doing what he's doing. Make great passes to open shooters and cutters. The names will change, but Rondo puts people in position to make shots.

mlisica19
11-24-2010, 06:56 PM
Chris Paul is the best PG in my eyes, hes the most valuable to his team (not by far) by doing ANYTHING it takes. He goes out their on offense and does work, he gets everyone involved but most of all he knows how to lure defenders and cuase mismatches and open lanes or players in general

Yet if I was a coach, my team would need a Rondo. ROndo is the best passer in the game, playmaker in the sense that he doesnt need to shoot (even though hes improving) to make his team win. Hes the best Transitional PG in the game, hes got great defense and knows how to hit his target

checkit
11-24-2010, 07:16 PM
then why post those numbers as your only text? And you are right, if Rondo could shoot a lick, he probably would drop his turnover rate. So?

so if he starting chucking? because that's what the other PGs are doing. USG rate is overrated and doesn't really tell how a PG like Rondo dominates the ball because he is a better distributor, he has other teammates to score. if not he would be scoring more.

checkit
11-24-2010, 07:22 PM
Rondo has been hitting that 15 + ft jumpshot when he's open

Exactly. People seem to be only taking from the past season and dont seem to have watched many celtics games this season besides the Mavs one I guess..lol

my top 5
1. Paul
2. Rondo
3. Williams
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

AIMelo=KillaDUO
11-24-2010, 07:44 PM
Rondo
Westbrook
Rose
Cp3
Willie

Duncan = Donkey
11-24-2010, 08:00 PM
Paul
Nash
Deron
Rose
Rondo
Westbrook

Duncan = Donkey
11-24-2010, 08:02 PM
Elite Point Guards
1. CP3
2. Deron
3.Rose
4.Westbrook

All-star Point Guards
Curry
Tyreke Evans (He is playing pretty well, just not playing PG postion as much because Beno Udrih
Nash
Wall, from what I saw so far
Rondo, Not a big fan of Rondo because he lacks scoring abilities. (Also a question: Who thinks Rondo is the Point Guard today without the Big 3 helping him out?)

Average Point Guard
1. Felton, put him by himself and he will only be average

Just my opinion

How the Hell are Rose and Westbrook elite PG's.........and Steve Nash is just an All Star.

Westbrook is the most overrated player on PSD these days.

Giraffes Rule
11-24-2010, 08:04 PM
How the Hell are Rose and Westbrook elite PG's.........and Steve Nash is just an All Star.

Westbrook is the most overrated player on PSD these days.

Do you have any particular reasons behind thinking he's overrated?

Baller1
11-24-2010, 08:14 PM
How the Hell are Rose and Westbrook elite PG's.........and Steve Nash is just an All Star.

Westbrook is the most overrated player on PSD these days.

:laugh2:

Hustlenomics
11-24-2010, 08:15 PM
How the Hell are Rose and Westbrook elite PG's.........and Steve Nash is just an All Star.

Westbrook is the most overrated player on PSD these days.

lol.

drobe86
11-24-2010, 08:24 PM
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Rajon Rondo


In that order....

The_Jamal
11-24-2010, 08:28 PM
Tyreke needs to get healthy, he's been banged up most of the year with an ankle. He's also doing it by himself, everyone else on the Kings is pretty much playing like ****.

DerekRE_3
11-24-2010, 08:38 PM
Tyreke needs to get healthy, he's been banged up most of the year with an ankle. He's also doing it by himself, everyone else on the Kings is pretty much playing like ****.

And coaching has been bad.

Bullsfan22
11-24-2010, 08:40 PM
When boozer comes back and gets more efficient, pushes his assist totals be right at 10 rose will be in discussions for the best pg in the game.

Corey
11-24-2010, 08:41 PM
Based on JUST this season, I'd have to put my rankings at:

CP3
Williams
Westbrook
Rose
Rondo
Nash

I think Rondo, CP3, and Nash are the best at running and carrying out a gameplan, however.

hugepatsfan
11-24-2010, 08:47 PM
If your list doesn't start w/ CP3 and then Deron Williams, you shouldn't even bother posting it.

Rentzias
11-24-2010, 09:23 PM
No way Parker is the best PG in the league, but I do agree that he doesn't get enough credit. When healthy, he's almost unstoppable offensively.

That's what she said.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 09:59 PM
so if he starting chucking? because that's what the other PGs are doing. USG rate is overrated and doesn't really tell how a PG like Rondo dominates the ball because he is a better distributor, he has other teammates to score. if not he would be scoring more.

chucking? No. Being an efficient scorer? Yes, that would help.
And usage is VERY important when trying to factor in two players, and their rates like turnovers. Um, if Rondo averages as many turnovers as Westbrook basically, while being involved in about 65% of the possessions while on the floor, this tells us quite a bit homie

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 10:00 PM
If your list doesn't start w/ CP3 and then Deron Williams, you shouldn't even bother posting it.

obviously if your list doesn't start with CP3, you have no business posting your opinion

checkit
11-25-2010, 12:10 AM
chucking? No. Being an efficient scorer? Yes, that would help.
And usage is VERY important when trying to factor in two players, and their rates like turnovers. Um, if Rondo averages as many turnovers as Westbrook basically, while being involved in about 65% of the possessions while on the floor, this tells us quite a bit homie

eh I just don't think this stat tells the whole story. compared to other guards, his assist to turnover ratio is pretty good.only second to chris paul I believe. Going by that stat it would be like he is hurting the offense but he is not due to his high assist number. the ball won't be in his possession as much as the other guys because he is a distributor and helps the offense that way.

chicago lulz
11-25-2010, 01:57 AM
That's what she said.

you need to work on your 'that's what she said' use. Unless these pills are making me miss something.

Anyways, the list goes like this
1. Rose
2. Rose
3. Rose
4. Rose
5. Rose

BECAUSE HE SPITS HOT FIRE

MJ-BULLS
11-25-2010, 02:07 AM
you need to work on your 'that's what she said' use. Unless these pills are making me miss something.

Anyways, the list goes like this
1. Rose
2. Rose
3. Rose
4. Rose
5. Rose

BECAUSE HE SPITS HOT FIRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 02:27 AM
eh I just don't think this stat tells the whole story. compared to other guards, his assist to turnover ratio is pretty good.only second to chris paul I believe. Going by that stat it would be like he is hurting the offense but he is not due to his high assist number. the ball won't be in his possession as much as the other guys because he is a distributor and helps the offense that way.

but that stat does tell a story. I will put it easier. Westbrook is involved in far more possessions than Rondo, and this is documented, and turns it over in far less of those possessions, and that is documented.
So, everytime Rondo touches the basketball, there is a 1/4 chance he produces a turnover. Everytime Westbrook touches the ball, there is a 1/7 chance he turns the ball over.
These are documented, and tracked stats.

Assist/Turnover is slightly better than looking at per game numbers. Meaning, its barely above useless

eXpLiiCt
11-25-2010, 02:40 AM
John Wall

/thread

checkit
11-25-2010, 04:22 AM
but that stat does tell a story. I will put it easier. Westbrook is involved in far more possessions than Rondo, and this is documented, and turns it over in far less of those possessions, and that is documented.
So, everytime Rondo touches the basketball, there is a 1/4 chance he produces a turnover. Everytime Westbrook touches the ball, there is a 1/7 chance he turns the ball over.
These are documented, and tracked stats.

Assist/Turnover is slightly better than looking at per game numbers. Meaning, its barely above useless

it does but not the whole story. I think you need to factor both. like I said Rondo's assist number helps from hurting the offense. and of course he doesn't have as many touches. he distributes more. his usg rate is low. so any turnover is gonna be exaggerated. like in today's game with the mavs westbrooks chucking and tos did hurt the offense in the end. that's the story it doesnt tell.

sargon21
11-25-2010, 04:45 AM
westbrook is the most overrated player on psd now...

oh yea... and rose's defense is getting better, but it will take a while for you casual fans to notice

Furymaker
11-25-2010, 08:11 AM
1- Deron
2- CP3
3- Rose
4- Westbrook
5- Rondo
6- Nash
7- Parker
8- J.Wall
...

Deron showed last night he is better then CP3
Rose is just beasting , improved defense , 3pt .
Westbrook same as Rose , beasting , he's behind Rose because Durant .
Rondo is great defender and passer , but he lacks shooting .
Nash everything is known
Parker is leading Spurs to best record in NBA .
J.Wall is rookie he's just insane , he's going to be top 5 PG in year or two .

GrandpaPa
11-25-2010, 10:11 AM
1- deron
2- cp3
3- rose
4- westbrook
5- rondo
6- nash
7- parker
8- j.wall
...

Deron showed last night he is better then cp3
rose is just beasting , improved defense , 3pt .
Westbrook same as rose , beasting , he's behind rose because durant .
Rondo is great defender and passer , but he lacks shooting .
Nash everything is known
parket is leading spurs to best record in nba .
J.wall is rookie just insane , he's going to be top 5 pg in year or two .
+1

Rentzias
11-25-2010, 11:17 AM
you need to work on your 'that's what she said' use. Unless these pills are making me miss something.

I'd probably visit a site other than PSD for news in the world. Drink your Cambodian breast milk.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 11:20 AM
it does but not the whole story. I think you need to factor both. like I said Rondo's assist number helps from hurting the offense. and of course he doesn't have as many touches. he distributes more. his usg rate is low. so any turnover is gonna be exaggerated. like in today's game with the mavs westbrooks chucking and tos did hurt the offense in the end. that's the story it doesnt tell.

No, it does tell the story. If Rondo turns it over at much higher percentage, we can then understand that the more he touches it, the more he turns it over. That goes for any player in the universe, if you are trying to measure turnovers per game.
Simply put, if Rondo had the ball in his hands the amount of possessions while on the floor that Westbrook does, Rondo is averaging about 6 turnovers or so a night.

Statistics are very simple to understand.

RONDO TURNS THE BALL OVER MORE THAN WESTBROOK.

Very simple

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 11:21 AM
westbrook is the most overrated player on psd now...

oh yea... and rose's defense is getting better, but it will take a while for you casual fans to notice

There are plenty of fans who would say the same thing, but switch the names you used.
They are both very talented young PG's. I find it ridiculous that some of you are willing to go to war over this comparison

KnicksorBust
11-25-2010, 11:38 AM
I really really want to pick Rondo as my #1 choice because of his passing and defense but I just can't. What Chris Paul is doing this season is amazing. I love that his scoring is scaled back. His effeciency is through the roof. This guy is destined to be a top 3 PG of all-time.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 11:41 AM
I really really want to pick Rondo as my #1 choice because of his passing and defense but I just can't. What Chris Paul is doing this season is amazing. I love that his scoring is scaled back. His effeciency is through the roof. This guy is destined to be a top 3 PG of all-time.

If his knees hold up, and he can make some noise in the playoffs, you better believe it

Stunner
11-25-2010, 11:54 AM
Chris Mullen list was this last night on NBA Tonight.

CP3
D-Will
Rose
Rondo
Westbrook

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 11:56 AM
Chris Mullin list was this last night on NBA Tonight.

CP3
D-Will
Rose
Rondo
Westbrook

fair enough list. Could you understand what he was saying? I could never understand him when he played

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 11:57 AM
I think the general consensus among neutral fans, is that it goes
CP3
DWill
Rondo/Rose/Westbrook (they are too close to call)
Parker/Nash

Wall/Curry

who cares.

HuRRiCaNeS324
11-25-2010, 11:59 AM
CP3
D Will
Rondo
Rose/Westbrook
Carlos Arroyo

Stunner
11-25-2010, 12:01 PM
fair enough list. Could you understand what he was saying? I could never understand him when he played

No lucky enough he had video lol he needs Sub-Titles.

checkit
11-25-2010, 12:08 PM
No, it does tell the story. If Rondo turns it over at much higher percentage, we can then understand that the more he touches it, the more he turns it over. That goes for any player in the universe, if you are trying to measure turnovers per game.
Simply put, if Rondo had the ball in his hands the amount of possessions while on the floor that Westbrook does, Rondo is averaging about 6 turnovers or so a night.

Statistics are very simple to understand.

RONDO TURNS THE BALL OVER MORE THAN WESTBROOK.

Very simple

you don't seem to be getting me. um, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the tov% going to be exaggerated as it factors in usg%, his is very low(since his role is not to score as much) so any turnover is going to be exaggerate the amount of TOs he does, by this it looks like if he chucks more his tov% would be lower, despite what you said about efficient scoring.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 12:13 PM
you don't seem to be getting me. um, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the tov% going to be exaggerated as it factors in usg%, his is very low(since his role is not to score as much) so any turnover is going to be exaggerate the amount of TOs he does, by this it looks like if he chucks more his tov% would be lower, despite what you said about efficient scoring.

no, its even simpler. TOV% is the percentage of times out of 100 plays that you are on the floor, that you turn the ball over. Usage is the percentage of plays you are involved in.
So, if you have higher usage, and a lower turnover rate, you may very well have the same amount of actual turnovers. But, these numbers show us even though Westbrook is involved in a higher portion of possessions while in the floor, he turns it over at a lesser rate.
Chucking has nothing to do with it. I get what you are trying to push here. That those who shoot a lot don't turn it over at the same rate as a distributor. And that is case by case, not an exact correlation.

Anyway, we are done with this debate. Its right in the numbers. Rondo turns it over more. Period. Thier roles only effect those numbers slightly.

checkit
11-25-2010, 12:19 PM
no, its even simpler. TOV% is the percentage of times out of 100 plays that you are on the floor, that you turn the ball over. Usage is the percentage of plays you are involved in.
So, if you have higher usage, and a lower turnover rate, you may very well have the same amount of actual turnovers. But, these numbers show us even though Westbrook is involved in a higher portion of possessions while in the floor, he turns it over at a lesser rate.
Chucking has nothing to do with it. I get what you are trying to push here. That those who shoot a lot don't turn it over at the same rate as a distributor. And that is case by case, not an exact correlation.

Anyway, we are done with this debate. Its right in the numbers. Rondo turns it over more. Period. Thier roles only effect those numbers slightly.

I don't agree with this. If he had a higher usg% the tov% would go down. numbers and stats only say so much, you have understand why they say what they say. but yeah let's end this.

Maynard Keenan
11-25-2010, 12:52 PM
I don't know how anyone can leave Steve Nash off a top 5 list and I don't know how anyone can put D-Rose below Westbrook. Heres the big difference everyone is missing, all of these guys have or had great players around them to take the pressure off and make there stats look better. Your telling me if you put Rondo on the Bulls that he gets double figure assists per game? Rondo CANT shoot, hes pretty much a drive and pass type guy, thats way to one or two demensional for me, not to mention his stats look great because hes got to pass to 3 future HOF's since he got in the league. What has Rose had? Luol Deng, Keith Bogans, Ronnie Brewer, Taj Gibson? If you guys watched Bulls games you would see Rose would have 12 assists a game if guys made there wide open shots. Rose CAN do everything and excel at it, not so much Rondo. Rose has so much more pressure on him as he has to basically do everything by himself and they are what? 8-6? Ask Rondo or Westbrook to come here and do the same, I HIGHLY doubt they would even come close. You guys think if Rondo was here the Bulls would be 8-6? Rose is at 26 ppg 8 assists 4 reb 1 steal and has great FG % and is hittin 3's now. Heres my top 5:

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Steve Nash
4. Derrick Rose
5. Rajon Rondo
6. Russell Westbrook

Doogolas
11-25-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't agree with this. If he had a higher usg% the tov% would go down. numbers and stats only say so much, you have understand why they say what they say. but yeah let's end this.

You're completely wrong here. TOV% isn't affected by usage rate. TOV% just is. If Rondo had the ball 100 times, his TOV% says he would turn it over 25 times. If Westbrook had the ball 100 times his TOV% says he would turn it over 16 times.

It has nothing to do with how often they're used. In fact, you have it completely backwards. Westbrook's per game numbers are the things that are screwed by his own high usage rate. His TO's/game look similar to Rondo's because he has the ball in his hands so much more.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 01:10 PM
You're completely wrong here. TOV% isn't affected by usage rate. TOV% just is. If Rondo had the ball 100 times, his TOV% says he would turn it over 25 times. If Westbrook had the ball 100 times his TOV% says he would turn it over 16 times.

It has nothing to do with how often they're used. In fact, you have it completely backwards. Westbrook's per game numbers are the things that are screwed by his own high usage rate. His TO's/game look similar to Rondo's because he has the ball in his hands so much more.

I have told him this 3 times now, at least. He doesn't care to grasp it.
I think its interesting how many think all these advanced statistics are skewed, and biased, and don't show the picture. When in reality, they tell us the simplest of things many times. Roles don't change the fact that player A has a higher assist rate than player B, when they are both PG's, starting and playing huge minutes for their respective teams.
Some just like to take something simple, and try and make it complicated

D1JM
11-25-2010, 01:27 PM
I have told him this 3 times now, at least. He doesn't care to grasp it.
I think its interesting how many think all these advanced statistics are skewed, and biased, and don't show the picture. When in reality, they tell us the simplest of things many times. Roles don't change the fact that player A has a higher assist rate than player B, when they are both PG's, starting and playing huge minutes for their respective teams.
Some just like to take something simple, and try and make it complicated

It's because they don't understand those advance stats and what they mean. Than god we aren't talking about baseball because if someone is having trouble with advanced stats in basketball I can't believe the trouble you would have explaining advance stats in baseball lol

Giraffes Rule
11-25-2010, 01:47 PM
It's because they don't understand those advance stats and what they mean. Than god we aren't talking about baseball because if someone is having trouble with advanced stats in basketball I can't believe the trouble you would have explaining advance stats in baseball lol

Or quarterback rating in football. :D

Hustlenomics
11-25-2010, 01:53 PM
No, it does tell the story. If Rondo turns it over at much higher percentage, we can then understand that the more he touches it, the more he turns it over. That goes for any player in the universe, if you are trying to measure turnovers per game.
Simply put, if Rondo had the ball in his hands the amount of possessions while on the floor that Westbrook does, Rondo is averaging about 6 turnovers or so a night.

Statistics are very simple to understand.

RONDO TURNS THE BALL OVER MORE THAN WESTBROOK.

Very simple

ok yet russel averages more turnovers and Rondo WINS more than him so his little turnovers he gets doesn't hurt the team


If his knees hold up, and he can make some noise in the playoffs, you better believe it

when he was healthy Dahanty Jones from the nuggets shut him down and the Hornets went packing in the first round

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 02:00 PM
ok yet russel averages more turnovers and Rondo WINS more than him so his little turnovers he gets doesn't hurt the team


when he was healthy Dahanty Jones from the nuggets shut him down and the Hornets went packing in the first round

how does that have anything to do with the argument? Rondo has more talent around him. In an easier conference. Of course he will win more

I don't think I have ever seen you make a logical argument

As for Paul, he is the best PG in the NBA, has been for about 5 years now. You can come up with whatever you like, it won't change the fact

Hustlenomics
11-25-2010, 02:18 PM
how does that have anything to do with the argument? Rondo has more talent around him. In an easier conference. Of course he will win more

I don't think I have ever seen you make a logical argument

As for Paul, he is the best PG in the NBA, has been for about 5 years now. You can come up with whatever you like, it won't change the fact

lol @ playing the eastern conference card that's why Rondo won a championship against the team that bounced Russel out of the playoffs this year and you keep pointing out Rondo's turnovers like he's killing his team with them when they aren't Lebron averages 4.13 TOPG and yet he's a great player and you never mention his turnovers when defending him

Tmo440
11-25-2010, 02:41 PM
Everyone just stop with this dam debate Rose is the best point guard in the League right now without a question. He's been averaging 30 points a night on this circus trip and he's been completely taking over games. I don't see how in the world you could have rose as the thrid or fourth best point guard in the league. He is better than Rondo and Williams, and IMO he's better than CP3. So please give him more respect because if you watch him play, he's ungardable.

D1JM
11-25-2010, 02:43 PM
Everyone just stop with this dam debate Rose is the best point guard in the League right now without a question. He's been averaging 30 points a night on this circus trip and he's been completely taking over games. I don't see how in the world you could have rose as the thrid or fourth best point guard in the league. He is better than Rondo and Williams, and IMO he's better than CP3. So please give him more respect because if you watch him play, he's ungardable.

i am all over rose nuts, but I even know that CP3 is way ahead of him still

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 02:46 PM
lol @ playing the eastern conference card that's why Rondo won a championship against the team that bounced Russel out of the playoffs this year and you keep pointing out Rondo's turnovers like he's killing his team with them when they aren't Lebron averages 4.13 TOPG and yet he's a great player and you never mention his turnovers when defending him

nope, was pointing out that Rondo turns the ball over at a greater rate than Westbrook. Said nothing further
Read into it however you like. And playing the regular season in the east is easier than in the west. Pretty clear cut case on that one.

Hustlenomics
11-25-2010, 02:50 PM
nope, was pointing out that Rondo turns the ball over at a greater rate than Westbrook. Said nothing further
Read into it however you like. And playing the regular season in the east is easier than in the west. Pretty clear cut case on that one.

eh playoffs are where the true stars are born and where regular season doesnt mean anything and Rondo's proved he can excel in the playoffs

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 02:53 PM
eh playoffs are where the true stars are born and where regular season doesnt mean anything and Rondo's proved he can excel in the playoffs

haha, I love how you always factor in team success in your little rankings, when you absolutely have no idea how to evaluate a player. you simply pick good players off loaded rosters, and state no evidence in the least.

I can think of a few other point guards that would excel with that roster.

Draco
11-25-2010, 02:56 PM
Chris Mullen list was this last night on NBA Tonight.

CP3
D-Will
Rose
Rondo
Westbrook

Or as Kenny Smith puts it, the other PGs after Rose aren't even in the same car.

Giraffes Rule
11-25-2010, 03:03 PM
ok yet russel averages more turnovers and Rondo WINS more than him so his little turnovers he gets doesn't hurt the team



when he was healthy Dahanty Jones from the nuggets shut him down and the Hornets went packing in the first round

You can't use team performance to evaluate how good a player is. By that logic Blake Griffin is ****ing awful.

D1JM
11-25-2010, 03:05 PM
You can't use team performance to evaluate how good a player is. By that logic Blake Griffin is ****ing awful.

Lol very awful

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:06 PM
You can't use team performance to evaluate how good a player is. By that logic Blake Griffin is ****ing awful.

that is all the kid does.

Hustlenomics
11-25-2010, 03:08 PM
lol i guess Rondo doesn't help his team succeed then

tredigs
11-25-2010, 03:11 PM
Everyone just stop with this dam debate Rose is the best point guard in the League right now without a question. He's been averaging 30 points a night on this circus trip and he's been completely taking over games. I don't see how in the world you could have rose as the thrid or fourth best point guard in the league. He is better than Rondo and Williams, and IMO he's better than CP3. So please give him more respect because if you watch him play, he's ungardable.

On 24.4 shots per game. Rose is fantastic and only getting better, but don't let your homer bias get in the way of understanding what these other guys are doing man. He can't facilitate/doesn't have the vision of Rondo/Cp3/Nash, and doesn't have the shooting ability of Cp3/D. Will/Nash. His defense is probably the worst of the top PG's short of Nash, and his overall scoring efficiency + assist/TO efficiency just isn't where it needs to be if he's supposed to be "the best point guard in the league without question".

I'd recommend you take some time to watch these other points for a few games straight to see where their games at if you haven't been, they're playing pretty amazing as well.

Also, like a bunch of you have mentioned, it definitely depends on the team you're working with when it comes to a lot of these points (D. Rose, Nash, Westbrook and Rondo in particular). The ones that would be an undeniably huge addition to any team (regardless of their other players) are the ones that I have 1 and 2: Cp3 and Deron. After that, it becomes need orientated and hugely debatable. But IMO it looks like Rondo, Westbrook/Rose at this point. Rondo's averaging 3.7 TO's a game yet still has >3:1 assist/TO ratio? That's amazing right there.

AK-47
11-25-2010, 03:23 PM
1a - Dwill
1b - CP3
3a - Rondo
3b - Rose
5th - Westbrook

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:24 PM
lol i guess Rondo doesn't help his team succeed then

when did anyone say that? Why are you putting words in people's mouths?

Hustlenomics
11-25-2010, 03:35 PM
when did anyone say that? Why are you putting words in people's mouths?

you guys put words in my mouth when I said Rondo plays well in the playoffs

D1JM
11-25-2010, 03:50 PM
On 24.4 shots per game. Rose is fantastic and only getting better, but don't let your homer bias get in the way of understanding what these other guys are doing man. He can't facilitate/doesn't have the vision of Rondo/Cp3/Nash, and doesn't have the shooting ability of Cp3/D. Will/Nash. His defense is probably the worst of the top PG's short of Nash, and his overall scoring efficiency + assist/TO efficiency just isn't where it needs to be if he's supposed to be "the best point guard in the league without question".

I'd recommend you take some time to watch these other points for a few games straight to see where their games at if you haven't been, they're playing pretty amazing as well.

Also, like a bunch of you have mentioned, it definitely depends on the team you're working with when it comes to a lot of these points (D. Rose, Nash, Westbrook and Rondo in particular). The ones that would be an undeniably huge addition to any team (regardless of their other players) are the ones that I have 1 and 2: Cp3 and Deron. After that, it becomes need orientated and hugely debatable. But IMO it looks like Rondo, Westbrook/Rose at this point. Rondo's averaging 3.7 TO's a game yet still has >3:1 assist/TO ratio? That's amazing right there.

With about half the usage rate that Westbrook/rose have. What's so amazing of turning over the ball 1 out of 4 times.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:54 PM
you guys put words in my mouth when I said Rondo plays well in the playoffs

when did that happen? Please show me

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:56 PM
With about half the usage rate that Westbrook/rose have. What's so amazing of turning over the ball 1 out of 4 times.

the amazing part is that despite those turnovers, he is still whipping out that ratio.

D1JM
11-25-2010, 04:02 PM
the amazing part is that despite those turnovers, he is still whipping out that ratio.

It could be his surrounded by very good shooters :rolleyes:. I wonder what his to's would be if he had a usage% of 30

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:03 PM
It could be his surrounded by very good shooters :rolleyes:. I wonder what his to's would be if he had a usage% of 30

He would probably set an NBA record if he had Wade or LeBron usage

D1JM
11-25-2010, 04:10 PM
He would probably set an NBA record if he had Wade or LeBron usage

he is still putting up some amazing numbers (especially his assist% being at .53%), but just like you said he would probably set an nba record for turnovers

xxcubs22xx
11-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Rose isn't carrying the Bulls...

The Bulls are carrying the Bulls...

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:23 PM
he is still putting up some amazing numbers (especially his assist% being at .53%), but just like you said he would probably set an nba record for turnovers

No, I don't think so. USG% is a skewed stat in the sense that it goes up with a players FG attempts. Rondo has the ball in his hands for a majority of the shot clock on a majority of Boston's plays, but he rarely looks for his own shot; he's always trying to find a seem to create for others.

edit: If he decided to throw up 5 more shots a game and increase his USG%, his turnover % would be no higher (in fact, it would be lower being that he can't give it up at this point). 17pts, 9ast, 2.8TO's on ~25% USG% would be a likely outcome.

Iodine
11-25-2010, 04:26 PM
On 24.4 shots per game. Rose is fantastic and only getting better, but don't let your homer bias get in the way of understanding what these other guys are doing man. He can't facilitate/doesn't have the vision of Rondo/Cp3/Nash, and doesn't have the shooting ability of Cp3/D. Will/Nash. His defense is probably the worst of the top PG's short of Nash, and his overall scoring efficiency + assist/TO efficiency just isn't where it needs to be if he's supposed to be "the best point guard in the league without question".

I'd recommend you take some time to watch these other points for a few games straight to see where their games at if you haven't been, they're playing pretty amazing as well.

Also, like a bunch of you have mentioned, it definitely depends on the team you're working with when it comes to a lot of these points (D. Rose, Nash, Westbrook and Rondo in particular). The ones that would be an undeniably huge addition to any team (regardless of their other players) are the ones that I have 1 and 2: Cp3 and Deron. After that, it becomes need orientated and hugely debatable. But IMO it looks like Rondo, Westbrook/Rose at this point. Rondo's averaging 3.7 TO's a game yet still has >3:1 assist/TO ratio? That's amazing right there.
I. Love. You.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:26 PM
No, I don't think so. USG% is a skewed stat in the sense that it goes up with a players FG attempts. Rondo has the ball in his hands for a majority of the shot clock on a majority of Boston's plays, but he rarely looks for his own shot; he's always trying to find a seem to create for others.

edit: If he decided to throw up 5 more shots a game and increase his USG%, his turnover % would be no higher (in fact, it would be lower being that he can't give it up at this point). 17pts, 9ast, 2.8TO's on ~25% USG% would be a likely outcome.

on even worse overall offensive efficiency though. There is a reason Rondo doesn't shoot a lot

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:34 PM
on even worse overall offensive efficiency though. There is a reason Rondo doesn't shoot a lot

I don't know, I'd disagree. Just from a stats perspective, checking out his HoopData "shot location efficiency", he's actually got a fine mid-range jumper (better in most facets than Wade and Lebron here). And I think he could take it the rim and finish much more than he does if he didn't like kicking it out to Pierce and Ray for the three so much. TS% wise, he's generally a slightly more efficient scorer than Rose. It's down a bit this year because his FT's have been struggling more than normal, but it will end up somewhere around ~54%. I really don't think that goes down much if he's asked to score a bit more.

I think he plays the way he does because he/they are so good at it, and why wouldn't you dish it off to Pierce or Ray Allen if you were a good enough slasher to cause their men to sag in and slip on them? I think he's a pretty amazing point, and that's not even getting into his hustle rebounding/defensive capabilities.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:43 PM
I don't know, I'd disagree. Just from a stats perspective, checking out his HoopData "shot location efficiency", he's actually got a fine mid-range jumper (better in most facets than Wade and Lebron here). And I think he could take it the rim and finish much more than he does if he didn't like kicking it out to Pierce and Ray for the three so much. TS% wise, he's generally a slightly more efficient scorer than Rose. It's down a bit this year because his FT's have been struggling more than normal, but it will end up somewhere around ~54%. I really don't think that goes down much if he's asked to score a bit more.

I think he plays the way he does because he/they are so good at it, and why wouldn't you dish it off to Pierce or Ray Allen if you were a good enough slasher to cause their men to sag in and slip on them? I think he's a pretty amazing point, and that's not even getting into his hustle rebounding/defensive capabilities.


possibly. I think defenses would adjust if he decided he wanted to become more of a scorer however. Give him the Shaq treatment even.
But who knows. We do know this-Rondo is perfect for the system the Celtics have provided for their young PG

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:48 PM
possibly. I think defenses would adjust if he decided he wanted to become more of a scorer however. Give him the Shaq treatment even.
But who knows. We do know this-Rondo is perfect for the system the Celtics have provided for their young PG

Yeah, they'd tighten up, but that almost plays into Rondo's game (blowing by you), so I don't know how well it would serve 'em. Hack-a-Rondo would be hilarious though.

If I have a boy and he wants to play ball, I'm making him shoot 500 FT's a day before breakfast. And he'll be playing soccer for his footwork, also. ...Does Hakeem have any kids? I'll just adopt them.

PrettyBoyJ
11-25-2010, 04:56 PM
I thought Tyreke Would have a great year this year, He starting to look average to me now

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 05:00 PM
Yeah, they'd tighten up, but that almost plays into Rondo's game (blowing by you), so I don't know how well it would serve 'em. Hack-a-Rondo would be hilarious though.

If I have a boy and he wants to play ball, I'm making him shoot 500 FT's a day before breakfast. And he'll be playing soccer for his footwork, also. ...Does Hakeem have any kids? I'll just adopt them.

it amazes me, watching college basketball, how pathetic the kids today are at free throws. When did coaches stop teaching how important this is?

That would be awesome. Teams carry 4 PG's going into the playoffs, just to hack-a-Rondo all night

ramsizzle
11-25-2010, 05:43 PM
On 24.4 shots per game. Rose is fantastic and only getting better, but don't let your homer bias get in the way of understanding what these other guys are doing man. He can't facilitate/doesn't have the vision of Rondo/Cp3/Nash, and doesn't have the shooting ability of Cp3/D. Will/Nash. His defense is probably the worst of the top PG's short of Nash, and his overall scoring efficiency + assist/TO efficiency just isn't where it needs to be if he's supposed to be "the best point guard in the league without question".

I'd recommend you take some time to watch these other points for a few games straight to see where their games at if you haven't been, they're playing pretty amazing as well.

Also, like a bunch of you have mentioned, it definitely depends on the team you're working with when it comes to a lot of these points (D. Rose, Nash, Westbrook and Rondo in particular). The ones that would be an undeniably huge addition to any team (regardless of their other players) are the ones that I have 1 and 2: Cp3 and Deron. After that, it becomes need orientated and hugely debatable. But IMO it looks like Rondo, Westbrook/Rose at this point. Rondo's averaging 3.7 TO's a game yet still has >3:1 assist/TO ratio? That's amazing right there.

hes avg. 30.6 pts..5.4 reb...6.4 assists....on 50% shooting and 45% from three on the trip. JUST STOP HATING ON HIM. hes the best player on the team of course shes gonna shoot alot.

checkit
11-25-2010, 05:46 PM
You're completely wrong here. TOV% isn't affected by usage rate. TOV% just is. If Rondo had the ball 100 times, his TOV% says he would turn it over 25 times. If Westbrook had the ball 100 times his TOV% says he would turn it over 16 times.

It has nothing to do with how often they're used. In fact, you have it completely backwards. Westbrook's per game numbers are the things that are screwed by his own high usage rate. His TO's/game look similar to Rondo's because he has the ball in his hands so much more.

yes it (USG) does affect the TOV%. It is just assuming that he would turn over the rate because his usage rate is low, so it computes that rate out of the 100 times. If his usage rate was higher or equal to that of Westbrook's, his TOV% would be of that or lower. That stat can only assume from what stats it is given. I'm sorry to tell stats can be manipulated and this one doesnt show you the whole thing. sorry it is just not that simple.

D1JM
11-25-2010, 05:58 PM
http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_2096381

How usage% is calculated

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:02 PM
No, I don't think so. USG% is a skewed stat in the sense that it goes up with a players FG attempts. Rondo has the ball in his hands for a majority of the shot clock on a majority of Boston's plays, but he rarely looks for his own shot; he's always trying to find a seem to create for others.

edit: If he decided to throw up 5 more shots a game and increase his USG%, his turnover % would be no higher (in fact, it would be lower being that he can't give it up at this point). 17pts, 9ast, 2.8TO's on ~25% USG% would be a likely outcome.

exactly what I was trying to say only you put in better. I guess I should have made myself clearer. Put the people accusing me of not understanding advanced stats didn't seem to know much themselves it seems.

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:03 PM
http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_2096381

How usage% is calculated

I know this, read my above post.

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:04 PM
On 24.4 shots per game. Rose is fantastic and only getting better, but don't let your homer bias get in the way of understanding what these other guys are doing man. He can't facilitate/doesn't have the vision of Rondo/Cp3/Nash, and doesn't have the shooting ability of Cp3/D. Will/Nash. His defense is probably the worst of the top PG's short of Nash, and his overall scoring efficiency + assist/TO efficiency just isn't where it needs to be if he's supposed to be "the best point guard in the league without question".

I'd recommend you take some time to watch these other points for a few games straight to see where their games at if you haven't been, they're playing pretty amazing as well.

Also, like a bunch of you have mentioned, it definitely depends on the team you're working with when it comes to a lot of these points (D. Rose, Nash, Westbrook and Rondo in particular). The ones that would be an undeniably huge addition to any team (regardless of their other players) are the ones that I have 1 and 2: Cp3 and Deron. After that, it becomes need orientated and hugely debatable. But IMO it looks like Rondo, Westbrook/Rose at this point. Rondo's averaging 3.7 TO's a game yet still has >3:1 assist/TO ratio? That's amazing right there.


Hell yes it is. No other PG (currently) could do that.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 06:05 PM
Hell yes it is. No other PG (currently) could do that.

do you really think Paul couldn't average 15 assists a night for the Celtics if he played huge minutes, and had all those weapons?

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 06:06 PM
I hate talking in speculation, but Paul could get a retared assist/turnover rate with a loaded team

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:07 PM
I don't know, I'd disagree. Just from a stats perspective, checking out his HoopData "shot location efficiency", he's actually got a fine mid-range jumper (better in most facets than Wade and Lebron here). And I think he could take it the rim and finish much more than he does if he didn't like kicking it out to Pierce and Ray for the three so much. TS% wise, he's generally a slightly more efficient scorer than Rose. It's down a bit this year because his FT's have been struggling more than normal, but it will end up somewhere around ~54%. I really don't think that goes down much if he's asked to score a bit more.

I think he plays the way he does because he/they are so good at it, and why wouldn't you dish it off to Pierce or Ray Allen if you were a good enough slasher to cause their men to sag in and slip on them? I think he's a pretty amazing point, and that's not even getting into his hustle rebounding/defensive capabilities.

This. This. This.

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:07 PM
I hate talking in speculation


Me too.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 06:11 PM
This. This. This.

haha, anything that compliments Rondo you jump on.
The Celtics are 2-1 without him, margin +9. 9-3 with him, margin of +7.
Not saying he isn't extremely important to their roster. But Rondo has the luxury of playing with the most loaded roster of all the elite PGs, and its not even close

BillyHoyle35
11-25-2010, 06:17 PM
1a - Dwill
1b - CP3
3a - Rondo
3b - Rose
5th - Westbrook

this.

Dwill and CP3 are so close, but Dwill led teams just seem to destroy CP3 head to head, 12-3 i think it is.
They are are definately the best as they both are complete packages, all the other PGs have some glaring weakness like defence, shooting or distributing.
Id take Dwill just for the size and strength, he abused CP3 a couple of times last night in the post area.

Edit: I have no preference order for Rose, Rondo or Westbrook, but if forced i would say Rose has the higher ceiling, just over Westbrook.

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:18 PM
haha, anything that compliments Rondo you jump on.
The Celtics are 2-1 without him, margin +9. 9-3 with him, margin of +7.
Not saying he isn't extremely important to their roster. But Rondo has the luxury of playing with the most loaded roster of all the elite PGs, and its not even close

maybe, but I don't go around underplaying other PGs talents when they have a good game. Westbrook cooked Rondo in their last meeting. Shows how much he has improved and that he is a top 5 PG at the moment. It's seems like some folks here can't acknowledge that there is anything good about Rondo's game and only credit his achievements to his team being "future hall of famers" (even though people were saying that they were "washed up" last season). just saying.

Maynard Keenan
11-25-2010, 06:19 PM
When judging who the best PG's are you have to imagine them on different teams and think of how they would do. The best PG's are ones where if you switch there teams they would either stay the same or would get better. For instance put Rondo on the Bulls and put Rose on the Celts. You really think Rondo would have this team at 8-5 right now? Thats Rondo's flaw, hes not a scorer, were as with Rose he does everything and if he was on the Celts not only would his assists go up but he would score to. Rose sets up so many guys per game, the problem is the guys that are shooting (aside from Deng) are Keith Bogans, Ronnie Brewer, Taj Gibson, CJ Watson, etc. and on the Celts when Rondo is settin these guys up its Ray Allen, KG, Pierce, Perkins, O' Neals, etc. Paul, Williams, and Rose can do EVERYTHING. If anything Rose should be givin more props because he is the one guy with all the pressure in the world on him to do everything and lead his team where as with Rondo and Westbrook its not. The Bulls are 8-5 without Boozer, and thats all because of Rose, no way Westbrook or Rondo do this on this Bulls team, no way. Rose would have averaged 10 + assists per game if it wasnt for the guys hes had around him, and you will see his assist total go up now that he finally has a lowpost threat. Paul and Williams are better, but Rose is DEF 3rd and moving up.

Sactown
11-25-2010, 06:25 PM
:raises hand: And I'm not even a Kings fan. I actually haven't even seen one Kings game this year, but can anybody tell me why he hasn't looked better?

D doesn't have to play honest.. so they pack the paint 4 men deep

checkit
11-25-2010, 06:29 PM
another thing I hate is people downplaying Rondo's current assist average. Kid is averaging 14-15 assists a game early this season. This is not easy to do. True he has a "loaded team" but it still aint easy. While Rondo was out, Nate got 2 his first game, 10 the second, and 4 last night. Same "future hall of famers" but different results. Rondo is doing this consistently. So while a PGs assist number may go up if you plug him into the current Celtics roster, no way are they going to be averaging dimes like that. Rondo's court vision and passing skills are really undervalued when people talk about his assist average.

Also, although the Celts won yesterday's game, it wasn't pretty. You can see the teams struggle without him, same with the Raptors game. And the Hawks are overrated. The Clippers could have won that game easily with just a little defense.

D1JM
11-25-2010, 06:38 PM
One thing that people don't see is that rondo has the space to give that assist. Teams are daring him to shoot. That's there mistake because you give any player space and they can pass without no one stopping them, thus his "great court vision " is created.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 07:12 PM
maybe, but I don't go around underplaying other PGs talents when they have a good game. Westbrook cooked Rondo in their last meeting. Shows how much he has improved and that he is a top 5 PG at the moment. It's seems like some folks here can't acknowledge that there is anything good about Rondo's game and only credit his achievements to his team being "future hall of famers" (even though people were saying that they were "washed up" last season). just saying.

so? I don't do that either. I don't care about head to head either, which some love to pull out.
I think you and I agree on more than you acknowledge. What is your top 5 PG list?

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 07:18 PM
another thing I hate is people downplaying Rondo's current assist average. Kid is averaging 14-15 assists a game early this season. This is not easy to do. True he has a "loaded team" but it still aint easy. While Rondo was out, Nate got 2 his first game, 10 the second, and 4 last night. Same "future hall of famers" but different results. Rondo is doing this consistently. So while a PGs assist number may go up if you plug him into the current Celtics roster, no way are they going to be averaging dimes like that. Rondo's court vision and passing skills are really undervalued when people talk about his assist average.

Also, although the Celts won yesterday's game, it wasn't pretty. You can see the teams struggle without him, same with the Raptors game. And the Hawks are overrated. The Clippers could have won that game easily with just a little defense.

well, he plays a lot of minutes, but a 53+% assist rate is awesome no matter how you look at it. Paul has done it at 11 apg. Its all about rates dude.
I honestly don't think there is anyway Paul doesn't have as good of an assist rate with that squad. He had a better assist rate with less talent.
Rondo is the 3rd best PG in the NBA so far this season imo, and he can honestly make a case for 2nd, but his shooting just drags him down so much.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 07:19 PM
One thing that people don't see is that rondo has the space to give that assist. Teams are daring him to shoot. That's there mistake because you give any player space and they can pass without no one stopping them, thus his "great court vision " is created.

I don't know man. Rondo is a very, very good passer who continuously hits pin point targets most PG's wouldn't even try.

Iodine
11-25-2010, 07:24 PM
Don't worry hawkeye, everything Rondo does is either the most underappreciated thing in the NBA, or a fluke

checkit
11-25-2010, 07:25 PM
so? I don't do that either. I don't care about head to head either, which some love to pull out.
I think you and I agree on more than you acknowledge. What is your top 5 PG list?
Currently it's

my top 5
1. Paul
2. Rondo
3. Williams
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

checkit
11-25-2010, 07:26 PM
well, he plays a lot of minutes, but a 53+% assist rate is awesome no matter how you look at it. Paul has done it at 11 apg. Its all about rates dude.
I honestly don't think there is anyway Paul doesn't have as good of an assist rate with that squad. He had a better assist rate with less talent.
Rondo is the 3rd best PG in the NBA so far this season imo, and he can honestly make a case for 2nd, but his shooting just drags him down so much.

Hey now, I agree with this.

chicago lulz
11-25-2010, 07:33 PM
Currently it's

my top 5
1. Paul
2. Rondo
3. Williams
4. Westbrook
5. Rose

dude, you high.

Rondo is not a better PG than D. Will

Top 5 is
1. Paul
2. D Will
3. Rondo
4. Rose/Westbrook - seems like if you're going by stats and what not, they're about the same no?

This is based off of how the teams are doing, and what kind of impact they're putting on the team. Statistics? I don't have any, because I don't give a ****.