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News24/7
11-24-2010, 01:17 AM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. Dwight Howard
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Russel Westbrook
6. Pau Gasol
7. Derrick Rose
8. Deron Williams
9. Tony Parker
10. Carmelo Anthony

http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-101123/nba-awards-watch

CavsYanksDuke
11-24-2010, 01:29 AM
lol at Howard.

aussie
11-24-2010, 01:31 AM
i recommend you use NBA.com instead of ESPN

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 02:04 AM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. Dwight Howard
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Russel Westbrook
6. Pau Gasol
7. Derrick Rose
8. Deron Williams
9. Tony Parker
10. Carmelo Anthony

http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-101123/nba-awards-watch

Ridiculous list. Gasol leads the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares, but yet his teammate is #1 on the list while Gasol is 6th?

koreancabbage
11-24-2010, 02:04 AM
Kobe and Gasol at the top. Both of them should win and should be co-mvps lol is that even be possible?

def Paul either first or second. everyone else is a close third. Kobe being first/second of course.

John Walls Era
11-24-2010, 02:14 AM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Rajon Rondo
3. Pau Gasol
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwight Howard
6. Russel Westbrook
7. Derrick Rose
8. Deron Williams
9. Tony Parker
10. Manu Ginobli

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 02:15 AM
Kobe and Gasol at the top. Both of them should win and should be co-mvps lol is that even be possible?

def Paul either first or second. everyone else is a close third. Kobe being first/second of course.

Not when Gasol has a 3.3 Win Shares to Kobe's 2.0 and when Gasol leads the league in both Win Shares and PER.

goblazers7
11-24-2010, 02:18 AM
Ya

magic0320
11-24-2010, 02:25 AM
Not when Gasol has a 3.3 Win Shares to Kobe's 2.0 and when Gasol leads the league in both Win Shares and PER.

lol who cares about win shares man it's only 13 or 14 games into season as long as those two lakers are in around top 5 ish i am happy lol

Avenged
11-24-2010, 02:32 AM
I been arguing for Gasol to be ahead of Kobe for a while but if you've seen him play, you would see he seems to be completely lost on some nights. When he's on though, there really is no stopping him.

John Walls Era
11-24-2010, 02:37 AM
I can guarantee that Gasol won't win it. In the voters mind: Its kObe's team.

sargon21
11-24-2010, 02:38 AM
I been arguing for Gasol to be ahead of Kobe for a while but if you've seen him play, you would see he seems to be completely lost on some nights. When he's on though, there really is no stopping him.

Yeah, tonight was an example of that.

Good win tho haha

Raph12
11-24-2010, 02:45 AM
After Gasol's game against Noah, he's not looking too good, but my list prior to tonight looks more like this:
1. CP3
2. Kobe/Pau
3. Kobe/Pau
4. Dwight
5. Rondo
6. D-Will
7. Rose
8. Westbrook
9. Dirk
10. Duncan


lol at Howard.

Why don't you lol at your Cavs instead?

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 02:47 AM
I been arguing for Gasol to be ahead of Kobe for a while but if you've seen him play, you would see he seems to be completely lost on some nights. When he's on though, there really is no stopping him.

I think tonight Noah frustrated him. Man it will be good when Boozer gets back as would it be when Bynum gets back for LA. Then we will know if the Bulls can actually beat LA in a series or not.

sargon21
11-24-2010, 02:57 AM
After Gasol's game against Noah, he's not looking too good, but my list prior to tonight looks more like this:
1. CP3
2. Pau
3. Kobe
4. Dwight
5. Rondo
6. D-Will
7. Rose
8. Westbrook
9. Dirk
10. Duncan

I'd agree with this, except Duncan really can't be on there, maybe Dwight up a spot above Kobe, and maybe monta 10...


Why don't you lol at your Cavs instead?


I'd agree with this, except Duncan really can't be on there, maybe Dwight up a spot above Kobe, and maybe monta 10...

LA_Raiders
11-24-2010, 03:44 AM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Rajon Rondo
3. Pau Gasol
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwight Howard
6. Russel Westbrook
7. Derrick Rose
8. Deron Williams
9. Tony Parker
10. Manu Ginobli

Agree

Enemey
11-24-2010, 03:47 AM
I'd have Pau Gasol Number 1 and Kobe somewhere in the top 5.

GoatMilk
11-24-2010, 03:51 AM
1. Pau
2. CP3
3. Rose
4. Kobe
5. Rondo

SouljahPhil...
11-24-2010, 03:58 AM
CP3 no 1..
both kobe and pau in the top 5...

NBA-GMaster
11-24-2010, 07:37 AM
I think Pau should be no.1 not Kobe..

Khalifa21
11-24-2010, 07:53 AM
:laugh2: at Kobe being top.

He's not even the best player on his team anymore...

Evolution23
11-24-2010, 08:27 AM
Ridiculous list. Gasol leads the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares, but yet his teammate is #1 on the list while Gasol is 6th?

maybe because ESPN is rediculous in general

Evolution23
11-24-2010, 08:28 AM
1. Gasol
2. CP3
3. Kobe
4. Rondo
5. WestBrook

tjlipford
11-24-2010, 08:48 AM
I'm reading some of these posts and just really scratching my head. LA is kobes team. They are the best team and Kobe is not logging heavy minutes. Gasol is playing well, but it's not his team. LA is kobes team no discussion.

The order could have been different but to me Kobe is #1 and if he does get it this year then that's for him being snubbed all those years when he was ripping through the league with no recognition. Some people seriously say Dwight Howard over Kobe come on man no way

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 09:41 AM
Win Shares

1. Pau Gasol-LAL 3.4
2. Chris Paul-NOH 2.8
3. Paul Millsap-UTA 2.6
4. Al Horford-ATL 2.5
5. Dwight Howard-ORL 2.2


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1. Chris Paul-NOH 0.298
2. Pau Gasol-LAL 0.282
3. Al Horford-ATL 0.252
4. Dwight Howard-ORL 0.248
5. Amir Johnson-TOR 0.247



Player Efficiency Rating

1. Chris Paul-NOH 27.3
2. Pau Gasol-LAL 26.8
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 26.4
4. Al Horford-ATL 25.4
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.7



I think it is clear that CP3, Gasol and Dwight should be the top 3.

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 11:38 AM
Most of you arguing about Gasol over Kobe, don't really understand, that just Kobe's presence out there makes it possible for Gasol to be efficient. You forget that when teams prepare they prepare with Kobe in mind first and then Gasol. As for the list. I personally think CP3 should be number 1 and then Kobe. Once again, you can throw all the stats out the window in proving your case on Gasol's efficiency. As i stated earlier, its Kobe's mere presence on the court that makes Gasol and the Lakers an efficient team overall. Even though Kobe will be Kobe and have bad shooting nights (but even then, he takes so much focus of opposing teams and players that it allows Gasol to be efficient, kind of like Michael and Scottie. I know that know one would argue that Pippen should be MVP over Michael over some of the years Michael won it. Even though Pippen was more efficient). As for the MVP debate, so far it has to be CP3, his team wouldn't be in the playoff picture if he wasn't playing this year.

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 11:42 AM
I will be happy with Gasol,CP3, Durant or Kobe winning this all work hard IMO.

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 11:48 AM
Most of you arguing about Gasol over Kobe, don't really understand, that just Kobe's presence out there makes it possible for Gasol to be efficient. You forget that when teams prepare they prepare with Kobe in mind first and then Gasol. As for the list. I personally think CP3 should be number 1 and then Kobe. Once again, you can throw all the stats out the window in proving your case on Gasol's efficiency. As i stated earlier, its Kobe's mere presence on the court that makes Gasol and the Lakers an efficient team overall. Even though Kobe will be Kobe and have bad shooting nights (but even then, he takes so much focus of opposing teams and players that it allows Gasol to be efficient, kind of like Michael and Scottie. I know that know one would argue that Pippen should be MVP over Michael over some of the years Michael won it. Even though Pippen was more efficient). As for the MVP debate, so far it has to be CP3, his team wouldn't be in the playoff picture if he wasn't playing this year.

:laugh2:

Pippen was NEVER more efficient than Jordan, not even close either. Jordan always led in PER and Win Shares and not just the Bulls but generally the league. MJ led in PER 7x and tied 1x and led in Win Shares 9x and this was the entire league.

Last year Gasol led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in the season and led in Win Shares in the playoffs. The year before he led in Win Shares in the season.

Get your facts straight.:)




These were MJ's

Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


PER
1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)
Career NBA 27.9 (1)
Career 27.9 (1)



These were Pippens's

Win Shares
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5)


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1993-94 NBA 0.194 (9)
1994-95 NBA 0.188 (10)
1995-96 NBA 0.209 (9)
1996-97 NBA 0.203 (7)


PER
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7)

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 11:49 AM
and you must understand what the voters look at, Kobe and CP3 instill toughness and a "never back down" mentality in every other player on their team. In order for Pau to beat Kobe in MVP, even Phil Jackson stated that Pau would need to become a much more of an enforcer personality and that numbers alone wouldn't matter. Thats why Pau will not be MVP this year or any other year as long as he's playing with Kobe. It would be a different situation if these were the finals MVP award. Pau can probably beat kobe out depending on individual statistics in a finals series. As for a long season, it will not happen, no matter how efficient his stats are or how much he scores. This is Kobe's team and will be till he retires. Happy for CP3 though...he is definitely back in form after his injury. Good to see him playing well.

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 11:57 AM
and you must understand what the voters look at, Kobe and CP3 instill toughness and a "never back down" mentality in every other player on their team. In order for Pau to beat Kobe in MVP, even Phil Jackson stated that Pau would need to become a much more of an enforcer personality and that numbers alone wouldn't matter. Thats why Pau will not be MVP this year or any other year as long as he's playing with Kobe. It would be a different situation if these were the finals MVP award. Pau can probably beat kobe out depending on individual statistics in a finals series. As for a long season, it will not happen, no matter how efficient his stats are or how much he scores. This is Kobe's team and will be till he retires. Happy for CP3 though...he is definitely back in form after his injury. Good to see him playing well.

How does that matter at all? The Celtics were Pierce team as well and Garnett nearly won MVP. The Sixers in 1983 was Dr J's team and Moses Malone won MVP. In the 1980's the Lakers was Kareem's team and then Magic took over and won MVP. Lakers in the early 2000's was Shaq's team and by 2003 it became Kobe's team with Shaq on it which is why he started to finish ahead of Shaq in MVP voting.

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 12:00 PM
Pippen was NEVER more efficient than Jordan, not even close either. Jordan always led in PER and Win Shares and not just the Bulls but generally the league. MJ led in PER 7x and tied 1x and led in Win Shares 9x and this was the entire league.

Last year Gasol led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in the season and led in Win Shares in the playoffs. The year before he led in Win Shares in the season.

Get your facts straight



Man, for a mod i would think you would be a little smarter. Everyone knows by now that the MVP award is based on perception and not just statistics alone. I don't understand why you keep throwing around these ridiculous stats that voters never look at when voting. These stats look cool, and good for analysis, but thats about it. You remind me of that Hollinger guy...lol
Once again throw around all the stats you like, but you know and i know that if anyone on the Lakers should win the MVP award. It will be KOBE BEAN BRYANT!

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 12:04 PM
Pippen was NEVER more efficient than Jordan, not even close either. Jordan always led in PER and Win Shares and not just the Bulls but generally the league. MJ led in PER 7x and tied 1x and led in Win Shares 9x and this was the entire league.

Last year Gasol led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in the season and led in Win Shares in the playoffs. The year before he led in Win Shares in the season.

Get your facts straight

Meant to put this part in quotes...anyways dude get your mind right. You keep acting all high and mighty around these threads, but everyone here knows that your stats are completely irrelevant when voters vote for MVP. So stop the ish... get your mind right!

Branwegner84
11-24-2010, 12:04 PM
1. CP3
2. Pau
3. Rose
4. Rondo
5. Dwight

The funniest thing is there's none of Miami BIG 3..........

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:07 PM
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Chris Paul
3. Dwight Howard
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Russel Westbrook
6. Pau Gasol
7. Derrick Rose
8. Deron Williams
9. Tony Parker
10. Carmelo Anthony

http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-101123/nba-awards-watch

espn gets more annoying by the day

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 12:11 PM
Man, for a mod i would think you would be a little smarter. Everyone knows by now that the MVP award is based on perception and not just statistics alone. I don't understand why you keep throwing around these ridiculous stats that voters never look at when voting. These stats look cool, and good for analysis, but thats about it. You remind me of that Hollinger guy...lol
Once again throw around all the stats you like, but you know and i know that if anyone on the Lakers should win the MVP award. It will be KOBE BEAN BRYANT!

Only player that ever won MVP that didn't lead his team in PER and/or Win Shares was Steve Nash.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:13 PM
Pippen was NEVER more efficient than Jordan, not even close either. Jordan always led in PER and Win Shares and not just the Bulls but generally the league. MJ led in PER 7x and tied 1x and led in Win Shares 9x and this was the entire league.

Last year Gasol led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in the season and led in Win Shares in the playoffs. The year before he led in Win Shares in the season.

Get your facts straight



Man, for a mod i would think you would be a little smarter. Everyone knows by now that the MVP award is based on perception and not just statistics alone. I don't understand why you keep throwing around these ridiculous stats that voters never look at when voting. These stats look cool, and good for analysis, but thats about it. You remind me of that Hollinger guy...lol
Once again throw around all the stats you like, but you know and i know that if anyone on the Lakers should win the MVP award. It will be KOBE BEAN BRYANT!

Nash is the only player I can find that won MVP and did NOT lead his team in those statistical categories you don't care about.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:14 PM
nevermind, JB hit that point

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:16 PM
its funny. At Kobe's peak, when Nash stole his MVP, Laker fans used stats to back their opinions up. Now, many Laker fans discard stats all together because it now handicaps Kobe.
Make up your mind and stick to your guns peeps

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 12:17 PM
Nash is the only player I can find that won MVP and did NOT lead his team in those statistical categories you don't care about.

Do you really think these reporters look at Win/Per stats when voting for MVP??
Be realistic!!

And once again i do want to clarify, that so far CP3 is MVP...

Baller1
11-24-2010, 12:21 PM
its funny. At Kobe's peak, when Nash stole his MVP, Laker fans used stats to back their opinions up. Now, many Laker fans discard stats all together because it now handicaps Kobe.
Make up your mind and stick to your guns peeps

So true.

By the way, your Wolves put a scare into me the other night. Thought we were gonna give that game away to you.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:23 PM
Do you really think these reporters look at Win/Per stats when voting for MVP??
Be realistic!!

And once again i do want to clarify, that so far CP3 is MVP...

no, they probably don't. But statistical data is being accepted more and more by the public. And flat out, Gasol has played better than anyone else on the Lakers, and anyone watching them knows that.

And yes, CP3 is hands down the MVP at this early point of the season.

But Kobe being listed #1 is not right dude. He has not been the best player on his own team. Not so far.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:24 PM
So true.

By the way, your Wolves put a scare into me the other night. Thought we were gonna give that game away to you.

Wolves have now learned how to stay in tight games. Next step is how to close some of them. All a learning process

Agar81
11-24-2010, 12:26 PM
LOL at Durant not on the list

Mamba006
11-24-2010, 12:32 PM
no, they probably don't. But statistical data is being accepted more and more by the public. And flat out, Gasol has played better than anyone else on the Lakers, and anyone watching them knows that.

And yes, CP3 is hands down the MVP at this early point of the season.

But Kobe being listed #1 is not right dude. He has not been the best player on his own team. Not so far.


I still don't think that' is a correct assessment. I've watched every Lakers game (NBA League Pass). Gasol has been terrific, but to say that he's the best player on the Lakers is clearly undermining Kobe (another words Kobe-hating). Gasol is terrific, and has clearly become a more comfortable and confident player since we first got him. That happens when you win a couple of championships. I will leave it at this, its a long season. lets see who leads the Lakers down the road. You know Kobe will be in form during mid-season and on. So lets see....

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:40 PM
I still don't think that' is a correct assessment. I've watched every Lakers game (NBA League Pass). Gasol has been terrific, but to say that he's the best player on the Lakers is clearly undermining Kobe (another words Kobe-hating). Gasol is terrific, and has clearly become a more comfortable and confident player since we first got him. That happens when you win a couple of championships. I will leave it at this, its a long season. lets see who leads the Lakers down the road. You know Kobe will be in form during mid-season and on. So lets see....

hahaha, ok dude. Gasol has been better this season. That is the way it is.
And quite honestly, Gasol had the highest PER and the most win shares in both the regular season and playoffs last year. He may not get the praise and highlights of Kobe, but he was just as, if not more important to them last season. While Kobe played pretty poorly the last 30 games against good teams, Gasol kept that record secured for the top seed.

But yep, its a long season. We shall see. Quite honestly, I never care about the MVP award. Its a media driven award usually decided way too early

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 12:44 PM
hahaha, ok dude. Gasol has been better this season. That is the way it is.
And quite honestly, Gasol had the highest PER and the most win shares in both the regular season and playoffs last year. He may not get the praise and highlights of Kobe, but he was just as, if not more important to them last season. While Kobe played pretty poorly the last 30 games against good teams, Gasol kept that record secured for the top seed.

But yep, its a long season. We shall see. Quite honestly, I never care about the MVP award. Its a media driven award usually decided way too early

Agreed, But MIP is gonna be neck and neck against a few stand outs!

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 12:45 PM
Agreed, But MIP is gonna be neck and neck against a few stand outs!

please, please, please, Kevin Love!

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 12:54 PM
please, please, please, Kevin Love!

I have KLove,Shannon Brown,Eric Gordon and Westbrook off top of my head competing I am sure I missed a couple. But it should be a good race.

Baller1
11-24-2010, 01:00 PM
LOL at Durant not on the list

At this point in the season, he's not.

Baller1
11-24-2010, 01:00 PM
If Westbrook keeps up this level of play, he should be the MIP.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:03 PM
I have KLove,Shannon Brown,Eric Gordon and Westbrook off top of my head competing I am sure I missed a couple. But it should be a good race.

Milisap too

Raph12
11-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Dwight doesn't get any respect from people on PSD, he's the defensive and now offensive anchor for the Magic (avging more points than Gasol, CP3, Lebron, Wade per36mins); he's 3rd in PER, 1st in DRAT, 1st in DWS, 3rd in WSP48M, 4th in WS and his team is tied for 1st in the East... Give credit where it's due, if he's not Top 3, he's right behind Kobe at #4.

nothappyinut
11-24-2010, 01:20 PM
I think tonight Noah frustrated him. Man it will be good when Boozer gets back as would it be when Bynum gets back for LA. Then we will know if the Bulls can actually beat LA in a series or not.

Man this comment made my day as if boozer is the deciding factor. You might want to check the tape and see how boozer does against the lakers. His shooting stats drop off and that was when he had dwill as his point guard!!

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:21 PM
Dwight doesn't get any respect from people on PSD, he's the defensive and now offensive anchor for the Magic (avging more points than Gasol, CP3, Lebron, Wade per36mins); he's 3rd in PER, 1st in DRAT, 1st in DWS, 3rd in WSP48M, 4th in WS and his team is tied for 1st in the East... Give credit where it's due, if he's not Top 3, he's right behind Kobe at #4.

Orlando's struggles are killing him though. They are winning some games, but they haven't looked dominant, thanks to Reddick and Lewis sucking so far

Raph12
11-24-2010, 01:29 PM
Orlando's struggles are killing him though. They are winning some games, but they haven't looked dominant, thanks to Reddick and Lewis sucking so far

Orlando is playing terribly on the offensive end (19th in off rat as a team) and still hold the best record in the East (tied with Boston)... That alone should be incentive enough for Dwight to be Top 3 in MVP rankings.

His stats per36mins are: 23.4ppg-12.5rpg-1.4apg-1.2spg-2.8bpg on 59.5FG%

If that's not dominating numbers, compare it to Gasol's stats: 22.1ppg-12.0rpg-4.1apg-0.7spg-1.9bpg on 55.3FG%

The only stat Gasol has outplayed Dwight is passing, which we know is Gasol's strong suit... The fact that the Magic are struggling so badly and still in first should mean a lot.

kswissdaf
11-24-2010, 01:36 PM
Gasol>Kobe just saying

Sly Guy
11-24-2010, 01:38 PM
I really don't understand how cp3 isn't the top of this list. His team has the biggest turnaround, it top of the league, and he's the ONLY reason why. Lists like this mean nothing, half of the sports analysts couldn't hold a candle to what most of the posters on this site are like

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:38 PM
Orlando is playing terribly on the offensive end (19th in off rat as a team) and still hold the best record in the East (tied with Boston)... That alone should be incentive enough for Dwight to be Top 3 in MVP rankings.

His stats per36mins are: 23.4ppg-12.5rpg-1.4apg-1.2spg-2.8bpg on 59.5FG%

If that's not dominating numbers, compare it to Gasol's stats: 22.1ppg-12.0rpg-4.1apg-0.7spg-1.9bpg on 55.3FG%

The only stat Gasol has outplayed Dwight is passing, which we know is Gasol's strong suit... The fact that the Magic are struggling so badly and still in first should mean a lot.

I am not disagreeing with you at all dude. Dwight gets far less respect than he deserves on PSD, and even in general.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
Gasol>Kobe just saying

so far this season

Raph12
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
Gasol>Kobe just saying

With that logic, Bosh>Wade (higher PER, WS, WSP48M, OWS, ORAT, TS%, EFG%, etc...)

You could say Gasol has outplayed Kobe up until this point, but that's about it.


I am not disagreeing with you at all dude. Dwight gets far less respect than he deserves on PSD, and even in general.

I just wanted to throw it out there because a lot of these PSD rankings don't have Dwight in the Top 5, which is just laughable.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
I really don't understand how cp3 isn't the top of this list. His team has the biggest turnaround, it top of the league, and he's the ONLY reason why. Lists like this mean nothing, half of the sports analysts couldn't hold a candle to what most of the posters on this site are like

yikes, I don't know haha. there are some crazy opinions up in here

Da Knicks
11-24-2010, 01:43 PM
I have KLove,Shannon Brown,Eric Gordon and Westbrook off top of my head competing I am sure I missed a couple. But it should be a good race.

Danilo Gallinari comes to mind.

Da Knicks
11-24-2010, 01:44 PM
Too much Kobe love from espn, dude needs to be the best player on his team before being number 1 for mvp.

Sly Guy
11-24-2010, 01:46 PM
yikes, I don't know haha. there are some crazy opinions up in here

yeah, but trolls don't count.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 01:48 PM
Danilo Gallinari comes to mind.

good call

Stunner
11-24-2010, 01:52 PM
Where is Vick?

JordansBulls
11-24-2010, 01:53 PM
Man this comment made my day as if boozer is the deciding factor. You might want to check the tape and see how boozer does against the lakers. His shooting stats drop off and that was when he had dwill as his point guard!!

Yeah when your Center is Okur a guy who stands out at the 3 point line I wouldn't expect a 6'9" player to be able to deal with two seven footers in the paint. Now give him a guy who is all energy, hustle and heart in Noah and things are a whole lot different.
Anyway Boozer averaged 20 and 10 on the Lakers. the problem was that the Jazz frontcourt couldn't stop LA's.
Bulls frontcourt would be a lot different with Boozer and Noah and then Gibson off the bench.

Teeboy1487
11-24-2010, 01:59 PM
Gasol gets no respect. He has been the most efficient player in the league so far. It won Lebron 2 MVPs. Why can't he even crack the top 5 :facepalm:? Kobe has not nearly played to form yet so he is way too high. Howard should be higher than CP3.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:06 PM
Gasol gets no respect. He has been the most efficient player in the league so far. It won Lebron 2 MVPs. Why can't he even crack the top 5 :facepalm:? Kobe has not nearly played to form yet so he is way too high. Howard should be higher than CP3.

CP3 is the runaway MVP so far dude

iCOOKiE MONSTER
11-24-2010, 02:08 PM
lol who cares about win shares man it's only 13 or 14 games into season as long as those two lakers are in around top 5 ish i am happy lol


Amen

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Man this comment made my day as if boozer is the deciding factor. You might want to check the tape and see how boozer does against the lakers. His shooting stats drop off and that was when he had dwill as his point guard!!

Boozer never played with a real center. Just ask laker fans how hard it was for gasol to get a rebound yesterday

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:10 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=paulch01&y1=2011&p2=howardw01&y2=2011&p3=gasolpa01&y3=2011&p4=bryanko01&y4=2011

iCOOKiE MONSTER
11-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Where is Vick?


This is basketball

Stunner
11-24-2010, 02:13 PM
This is basketball

I knw it was a joke.

Teeboy1487
11-24-2010, 02:15 PM
CP3 is the runaway MVP so far dude

How so? I feel that Dwight has been much more valuable. He is the focal point offensively and defensively for the Magic. His numbers are just as good if not better than Paul's numbers. Paul is number two on my list behind Dwight.

marcanthony01
11-24-2010, 02:22 PM
The definition of MVP since Steve Nash won it has been, the best player on the best team. No way is Pau Gasol the best player on the Lakers. Lets cut that out now.

Its also RIDICULOUS that the best player of the decade has only one MVP.

Get the mamba another MVP award!!!!!

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:23 PM
The definition of MVP since Steve Nash won it has been, the best player on the best team. No way is Pau Gasol the best player on the Lakers. Lets cut that out now.

Its also RIDICULOUS that the best player of the decade has only one MVP.

Get the mamba another MVP award!!!!!

so you want to give the MVP as a career achievement award now? And that rights the ship of how big a joke this award has become?
mmkay

magic0320
11-24-2010, 02:26 PM
To people who says Gasol is better than Bryant

Kobe has been sitting in the bench when lakers are winning by 10-20 points when Gasol is playing high 30s because we don't have Bynum and don't want to give up lead. so of course Gasol will have better numbers.

just watch lakers game and not just judgeing by per frekin numbers

when you don't even know the whole story

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:29 PM
To people who says Gasol is better than Bryant

Kobe has been sitting in the bench when lakers are winning by 10-20 points when Gasol is playing high 30s because we don't have Bynum and don't want to give up lead. so of course Gasol will have better numbers.

just watch lakers game and not just judgeing by per frekin numbers

when you don't even know the whole story

no, everyone knows that. But advanced statistics don't care about minutes, or playing with leads, etc. And I am not sure anyone thinks Gasol is "better" than Kobe outright. But his statistical production has led to more Laker wins in the last two years than Kobe's has. Gasol can make a claim as the best big man in basketball so far this season. its not a slight on Kobe that these people are making. Its more about how great Pau is playing.

marcanthony01
11-24-2010, 02:30 PM
so you want to give the MVP as a career achievement award now? And that rights the ship of how big a joke this award has become?
mmkay



Kobe should have won the award years ago....... There is no way Steve Nash should have back to back MVP awards.......

But if the award is given to the BEST PLAYER on the BEST TEAM, the award should definitely go to KOBE..... Which I assume the Lakers will have a #1 seed at the end of the year.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:31 PM
Kobe should have won the award years ago....... There is no way Steve Nash should have back to back MVP awards.......

But if the award is given to the BEST PLAYER on the BEST TEAM, the award should definitely go to KOBE..... Which I assume the Lakers will have a #1 seed at the end of the year.

this is all fine, but giving him an award now for what he wasn't given in the mid 2000's isn't right. And why does the award have to go to the best player on the best team? Shouldn't they just name it that then?

Avenged
11-24-2010, 02:33 PM
I think tonight Noah frustrated him. Man it will be good when Boozer gets back as would it be when Bynum gets back for LA. Then we will know if the Bulls can actually beat LA in a series or not.

It hasn't just been the Bulls frontcourt.. It's been the T-Wolves and the Denver Nuggets as well [at least offensively].. He just seems to be getting pushed around against tough players, but like I said, when he's on, he's really on. Prior to the Bulls game, he went 10 for 10 against the Warriors.. Pretty impressive when you realize the other assets to the stat sheet.

Either way, you know you're a good player when your being argued to be ahead of Kobe.. And you know you have a good team when both of them are on the same squad..

Oh and to your last statement, I think you guys have bigger worries than beating L.A.. First you have to get through Boston/Orlando/Miami to meet up with the Lakers. ;)

magic0320
11-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Gasol having get to play longer minutes do help his advenced stats because when you are playing weakers team for 6 - 10 minutes longer of course your stats will get better in every way.

During that time Gasol can easily make 4 or 5 more FGs without miss and get more assists and rebounds as well.

marcanthony01
11-24-2010, 02:35 PM
this is all fine, but giving him an award now for what he wasn't given in the mid 2000's isn't right. And why does the award have to go to the best player on the best team? Shouldn't they just name it that then?



I think it should go to the best player in the league for that particular year. But that is not the definition given of the MVP award year in and year out. Durant should have gotten it last year if that was the case. and CP3 should get so far in the season, cause he's playing the best ball right now.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 02:40 PM
I think it should go to the best player in the league for that particular year. But that is not the definition given of the MVP award year in and year out. Durant should have gotten it last year if that was the case. and CP3 should get so far in the season, cause he's playing the best ball right now.

no, LeBron deserved the last two, he was the best individual player in the NBA. And I agree with you on CP3 this season
Your damn right Kobe deserved it over Nash. But that is why many, including me, just don't care about the award anymore. Shaq should have around 4. Kobe at least 2. But that is the way it goes homie. Its a media award decided before the season is even close to over.
Its sad

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 02:43 PM
Danilo Gallinari comes to mind.

I agree he has looked very solid.

xbrackattackx
11-24-2010, 02:45 PM
Milisap too

He has been a monster too, them losing Boozer hasn't even bothered them, But with the way Taj Gibson is playing the Bulls aren't missing him either it looks like ha.

marcanthony01
11-24-2010, 02:45 PM
Your damn right Kobe deserved it over Nash. But that is why many, including me, just don't care about the award anymore. Shaq should have around 4. Kobe at least 2. But that is the way it goes homie. Its a media award decided before the season is even close to over.
Its sad


agreed

D1JM
11-24-2010, 02:51 PM
He has been a monster too, them losing Boozer hasn't even bothered them, But with the way Taj Gibson is playing the Bulls aren't missing him either it looks like ha.

Our bench would get better once boozer comes back. I just can't imagine how ridiculouse the lakers bench will be once Bynum comes back.

Blake
Brown
Barnes
Odom

That's better than some starting 1-4 around the league lol

Raph12
11-24-2010, 03:13 PM
Gasol has been playing well, but that has a lot to do with the Lakeshow playing well as a team. Yesterday Gasol couldn't buy a bucket against Noah, Kobe and the bench carried them offensively. By the end of the season, Gasol will come back down to earth as will the Lakers bench... I think Dwight wins MVP, unless the Hornets can keep winning.

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Gasol has been playing well, but that has a lot to do with the Lakeshow playing well as a team. Yesterday Gasol couldn't buy a bucket against Noah, Kobe and the bench carried them offensively. By the end of the season, Gasol will come back down to earth as will the Lakers bench... I think Dwight wins MVP, unless the Hornets can keep winning.

the media has a scapegoat with D12 every year though. They can give him DPOY and continually shut him out of the MVP award. You know I am right

Raph12
11-24-2010, 03:23 PM
the media has a scapegoat with D12 every year though. They can give him DPOY and continually shut him out of the MVP award. You know I am right

Definitely, but if the Magic finish 1st in the East while Dwight leads the league (or finishes 2nd to CP3) in PER, Top 3 in WSP48M and continues to lead his team in every category besides assists... I can't see them not giving it to him.

The only way Dwight loses the award is if the Hornets/Thunder finish Top 3 in the West while CP3/KD finish with better stats than Dwight. Dwight could be the third player ever to win both MVP and DPOY in the same season (Jordan and Hakeem did it once each).

Hawkeye15
11-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Definitely, but if the Magic finish 1st in the East while Dwight leads the league (or finishes 2nd to CP3) in PER, Top 3 in WSP48M and continues to lead his team in every category besides assists... I can't see them not giving it to him.

The only way Dwight loses the award is if the Hornets/Thunder finish Top 3 in the West while CP3/KD finish with better stats than Dwight. Dwight could be the third player ever to win both MVP and DPOY in the same season (Jordan and Hakeem did it once each).

haha, that is a lot of what if's, but anything is possible. It would be a shame if the best center in the NBA goes through his career never winning an MVP.

Raph12
11-24-2010, 03:37 PM
haha, that is a lot of what if's, but anything is possible. It would be a shame if the best center in the NBA goes through his career never winning an MVP.

Basically if the Magic stay where they are while CP3's team drops off, which I think is only a matter of time, Dwight wins MVP.

DeyAce
11-24-2010, 03:42 PM
1. CP3
2. Pau
3. Rose
4. Kobe
5. Rondo

Gibby
11-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Win Shares

1. Pau Gasol-LAL 3.4
2. Chris Paul-NOH 2.8
3. Paul Millsap-UTA 2.6
4. Al Horford-ATL 2.5
5. Dwight Howard-ORL 2.2


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1. Chris Paul-NOH 0.298
2. Pau Gasol-LAL 0.282
3. Al Horford-ATL 0.252
4. Dwight Howard-ORL 0.248
5. Amir Johnson-TOR 0.247



Player Efficiency Rating

1. Chris Paul-NOH 27.3
2. Pau Gasol-LAL 26.8
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 26.4
4. Al Horford-ATL 25.4
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.7



I think it is clear that CP3, Gasol and Dwight should be the top 3.

Amir for MVP.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 03:48 PM
no, they probably don't. But statistical data is being accepted more and more by the public. And flat out, Gasol has played better than anyone else on the Lakers, and anyone watching them knows that.

And yes, CP3 is hands down the MVP at this early point of the season.

But Kobe being listed #1 is not right dude. He has not been the best player on his own team. Not so far.

Gasol gets killed against above average guys in his position. He doesn't show up on defense. YES, his offensive numbers are there, but he is gone one the other half of the court. And ANYONE watching them knows that. You cannot be MVP and only show up on the offensive end. You know this.

ko8e24
11-25-2010, 03:49 PM
Kobe Bryant will win his 2nd career League MVP Award.

/thread

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:57 PM
Gasol gets killed against above average guys in his position. He doesn't show up on defense. YES, his offensive numbers are there, but he is gone one the other half of the court. And ANYONE watching them knows that. You cannot be MVP and only show up on the offensive end. You know this.

sure you can. Steve Nash won two of them.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 03:59 PM
Kobe Bryant will win his 2nd career League MVP Award.

/thread

wouldn't surprise me. With all the hate towards LeBron and Wade, they are out of the equation. This leaves Dwight, CP3, Durant, and Kobe to fight it out amongst the pathetic media.

Iodine
11-25-2010, 04:00 PM
Gasol gets killed against above average guys in his position. He doesn't show up on defense. YES, his offensive numbers are there, but he is gone one the other half of the court. And ANYONE watching them knows that. You cannot be MVP and only show up on the offensive end. You know this.

2005-06 Steve Nash Phoenix
2004-05 Steve Nash Phoenix
2000-01 Allen Iverson Philadelphia
1974-75 Bob McAdoo Buffalo

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:00 PM
sure you can. Steve Nash won two of them.

Not when you are putting up average offensive numbers. Steve Nash was putting up amazing numbers for a PG. He made everyone on that team better. Can't say the same about Gasol.


He gets owned on the defensive end. Look at how he did against Love and Noah. He can OWN all these mediocre PFs and Cs but he can't handle a decent one on the defensive end. Kobe > Gasol. I don't even know why i should even have to argue this.

ko8e24
11-25-2010, 04:01 PM
sure you can. Steve Nash won two of them.

Yes, but now MVP voters have been so scrutinized for the fact that they kept changing the definition of the MVP in those yrs when guys like Nash and Dirk won the award. And a guy like Nash is a back-to-back award recipient, but he was never able to lead his team to the finals. That fact hurt a lot of voters' credibilty. Voters have learned their lesson I feel from the mid-2000s to now.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:01 PM
2005-06 Steve Nash Phoenix
2004-05 Steve Nash Phoenix
2000-01 Allen Iverson Philadelphia
1974-75 Bob McAdoo Buffalo

4 players in the history of the NBA? I'm cool with that.

Chances are of it happening again are slim to none.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:03 PM
wouldn't surprise me. With all the hate towards LeBron and Wade, they are out of the equation. This leaves Dwight, CP3, Durant, and Kobe to fight it out amongst the pathetic media.

What do you expect? All of their statistics have dropped. Including Lebron being as efficient as he was in the past. You can't expect him to win MVP with numbers like that.

My List:

CP3
Dwight
Kobe

ko8e24
11-25-2010, 04:05 PM
wouldn't surprise me. With all the hate towards LeBron and Wade, they are out of the equation. This leaves Dwight, CP3, Durant, and Kobe to fight it out amongst the pathetic media.

Durant will probably lead the league in scoring again, but if his Thunder don't surpass the expectations from last yr (I don't think they're ballin it better than last yr), he won't win it. Dwight is going to always be looked at as DPOY candidate moreso than MVP candidate, so he's gonna have to do something spectacular like lead the league in FG%, RPG and BPG along with avg. 25+ ppg and lead the Magic to the best record in the NBA. I don't see Orlando with the best record and I don't see Dwight consistently dropping 25+ a night, so he won't get it.

It'll be like 2008 all over again. Kobe vs CP3

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:06 PM
Not when you are putting up average offensive numbers. Steve Nash was putting up amazing numbers for a PG. He made everyone on that team better. Can't say the same about Gasol.


He gets owned on the defensive end. Look at how he did against Love and Noah. He can OWN all these mediocre PFs and Cs but he can't handle a decent one on the defensive end. Kobe > Gasol. I don't even know why i should even have to argue this.

you don't have to argue it. I respect your opinion. And I honestly don't give two craps who wins the MVP award. Shaq having just 1, and Nash winning two tells us all we need to know about how legit the award is.
Who cares? Do Laker fans care if Kobe wins and MVP? Or would you rather just be happy watching him hoist the trophy over his head at the end of the playoffs?

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:09 PM
you don't have to argue it. I respect your opinion. And I honestly don't give two craps who wins the MVP award. Shaq having just 1, and Nash winning two tells us all we need to know about how legit the award is.
Who cares? Do Laker fans care if Kobe wins and MVP? Or would you rather just be happy watching him hoist the trophy over his head at the end of the playoffs?

Yeah over the years I have grown to not really care about it either but the fact of the matter is when comparing players' careers MVPs are a deciding factor for many.


MVP or FINALS TROPHY? Definately the Finals Trophy. No question about it. It's just a shame a guy who's been the best player of his generation has only 1 MVP. Sad, but true.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Yeah over the years I have grown to not really care about it either but the fact of the matter is when comparing players' careers MVPs are a deciding factor for many.


MVP or FINALS TROPHY? Definately the Finals Trophy. No question about it. It's just a shame a guy who's been the best player of his generation has only 1 MVP. Sad, but true.

Shaq only has 1 as well. It happens.

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:14 PM
Yeah over the years I have grown to not really care about it either but the fact of the matter is when comparing players' careers MVPs are a deciding factor for many.


MVP or FINALS TROPHY? Definately the Finals Trophy. No question about it. It's just a shame a guy who's been the best player of his generation has only 1 MVP. Sad, but true.

Huh? No, he has two. Scroll over to the right side of the page, says right there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:15 PM
I have to say, having multiple MVP's doesn't sway my opinion. Nash has 2, Kobe 1. There isn't a person alive that would rank Nash over Kobe. I think its a great thing if a player can get one. But I don't hold them in regards like some do. They are a media driven award. A popularity contest in many cases. I don't really care about them. Kobe could never win another one again, and never make the finals again, and he is still top 10 in my book

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Huh? No, he has two. Scroll over to the right side of the page, says right there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan

haha, I typed something similar, but decided not to push the issue. But yeah, Duncan is the best player of the current aging generation.
Watching him last night, and last week was painful though. he looks done

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Huh? No, he has two. Scroll over to the right side of the page, says right there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan

First half of the decade? yes. Second half of the decade? no.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:19 PM
Shaq only has 1 as well. It happens.

Yeah, it's horrible.


I have to say, having multiple MVP's doesn't sway my opinion. Nash has 2, Kobe 1. There isn't a person alive that would rank Nash over Kobe. I think its a great thing if a player can get one. But I don't hold them in regards like some do. They are a media driven award. A popularity contest in many cases. I don't really care about them. Kobe could never win another one again, and never make the finals again, and he is still top 10 in my book

Well for some, when comparing Kobe to other greats like Magic they will use that. Or MJ or Kareem.

It really is a media driven award but I think if any year is the right one for Kobe to win it it would be this year. His window of opportunity for the MVP award is closing FAST.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:29 PM
Yeah, it's horrible.



Well for some, when comparing Kobe to other greats like Magic they will use that. Or MJ or Kareem.

It really is a media driven award but I think if any year is the right one for Kobe to win it it would be this year. His window of opportunity for the MVP award is closing FAST.

I don't know man. I really think the public perception of the importance of that award took a hit when Shaq only got 1, Nash won 2, and Kobe missing out in 2005. I just don't think it holds the alure it used to. It sure doesn't to me. When stacking up Kobe to others, I know he has 1. and he has a lot of rings. He has plenty in his back pocket, award wise, at this stage to debate with anyone outside MJ

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:35 PM
I don't know man. I really think the public perception of the importance of that award took a hit when Shaq only got 1, Nash won 2, and Kobe missing out in 2005. I just don't think it holds the alure it used to. It sure doesn't to me. When stacking up Kobe to others, I know he has 1. and he has a lot of rings. He has plenty in his back pocket, award wise, at this stage to debate with anyone outside MJ

I know but those one's that Shaq didn't win went to Duncan. I mean you can say Shaq should have more than one but who is going to argue against Duncan getting those awards? I think it started with Nash winning it back-to-back. I don't even think Kobe deserved it in 08. I thought that belonged to Wade. Kobe deserved it more in 06 and 07. He should have had back-to-back awards.

Yeah, to me and you it doesn't because of those Nash years. But if you really look at the past MVP's, most of them were very deserving of it. So it is still a legitimate argument when comparing two players. Obviously rings outweigh them in most cases but it would be nice to see Kobe retire with more than one.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:38 PM
Edit: I think a better comparison instead of using actual MVP awards would be MVP Award shares. They truly measure how long a player has been on top. It's a good measure of how great a player is.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


Just look at that list. That is a pretty legitimate top 10.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:38 PM
I know but those one's that Shaq didn't win went to Duncan. I mean you can say Shaq should have more than one but who is going to argue against Duncan getting those awards? I think it started with Nash winning it back-to-back. I don't even think Kobe deserved it in 08. I thought that belonged to Wade. Kobe deserved it more in 06 and 07. He should have had back-to-back awards.

Yeah, to me and you it doesn't because of those Nash years. But if you really look at the past MVP's, most of them were very deserving of it. So it is still a legitimate argument when comparing two players. Obviously rings outweigh them in most cases but it would be nice to see Kobe retire with more than one.

I doubt Kobe only having 1 MVP to go with all those rings, Finals MVP's, 1st team all NBA's, 1st team all defensive, etc, is going to effect how he is looked at in 15 years.
Just saying. Your boy will be just fine when being judged after his career is over

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:40 PM
First half of the decade? yes. Second half of the decade? no.

Agree to agree. I'm fine with a shared title on that one; though I'd give Duncan the 1a to Kobe's 1b for 2000-2010. But like Hawk said, Duncan is showing his age much more than Kobe at this point (which I guess makes sense being that he's 34).

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 04:41 PM
Edit: I think a better comparison instead of using actual MVP awards would be MVP Award shares. They truly measure how long a player has been on top. It's a good measure of how great a player is.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


Just look at that list. That is a pretty legitimate top 10.

I could nitpick that list a little, but its pretty bad azz

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:41 PM
I doubt Kobe only having 1 MVP to go with all those rings, Finals MVP's, 1st team all NBA's, 1st team all defensive, etc, is going to effect how he is looked at in 15 years.
Just saying. Your boy will be just fine when being judged after his career is over

Yeah but I would just like to see one more MVP under his belt. Just because of the list of great players who have more than one MVP. lol. ;) :p

JordansBulls
11-25-2010, 04:41 PM
Gasol gets killed against above average guys in his position. He doesn't show up on defense. YES, his offensive numbers are there, but he is gone one the other half of the court. And ANYONE watching them knows that. You cannot be MVP and only show up on the offensive end. You know this.

Dirk, Iverson, Barkley, Nash, Bird, Magic all were guys who won league MVP without being good defenders at all.

tredigs
11-25-2010, 04:42 PM
Edit: I think a better comparison instead of using actual MVP awards would be MVP Award shares. They truly measure how long a player has been on top. It's a good measure of how great a player is.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


Just look at that list. That is a pretty legitimate top 10.

Absolutely. But it's also tinted by voter bias (and in turn media bias) to an extent. But no doubt, it's a much better gauge than just purely the MVP winner.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:44 PM
Agree to agree. I'm fine with a shared title on that one; though I'd give Duncan the 1a to Kobe's 1b for 2000-2010. But like Hawk said, Duncan is showing his age much more than Kobe at this point (which I guess makes sense being that he's 34).

LOL! I'm cool with that right now. But agreed, Duncan is showing his age faster. Kobe has adapted his game much more over the past couple of years to make up for his age. He's only 32 though so he has a couple more elite years left in the tank. Duncan came into the league after Kobe though if im not mistaken? but they basically started the same because of Kobe's first two years.


I could nitpick that list a little, but its pretty bad azz

Yeah for the most part it is pretty accurate. I never looked at it until now. Crazy how Lebron is #12 and only halfway through his career. Obviously, the only fluke on here would be Nash I think.

But nonetheless it is a good list.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:49 PM
Absolutely. But it's also tinted by voter bias (and in turn media bias) to an extent. But no doubt, it's a much better gauge than just purely the MVP winner.

Yea which is why Nash is sitting up above guys like Ewing, Baylor, West. There are a couple names that should be lower but for the most part it is a better measuring stick. imo.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 04:52 PM
Kobe won't get it if Gasol plays at such a high level, IMO it will be between D12, CP3 and KD... If the Hornets and Thunder dont finish Top 3 in the West, Dwight's winning it.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:55 PM
Dirk, Iverson, Barkley, Nash, Bird, Magic all were guys who won league MVP without being good defenders at all.

Magic was actually a pretty above average defender. I can't really find any defensive statistics for him but in the one year on basketball reference that they do have listed his defensive win shares was ranked 7th in the NBA the 81-82 season. Which doesn't seem to bad of a defender to me. Also considering he was fairly young im sure it improved.

Bird was a superb defender. He led the league in defensive win shares 4 times.

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)
Career 59.0 (28)

not too bad.


Barkley in 85-86 season had the 2nd highest DWS total. considering his career ended in 99 im pretty sure that improved as well over the course of his career.


So all of those guys had their defensive years.

the rest? well yeahh you pretty much hit em on the money.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 04:56 PM
Kobe won't get it if Gasol plays at such a high level, IMO it will be between D12, CP3 and KD... If the Hornets and Thunder dont finish Top 3 in the West, Dwight's winning it.

Yeah, when Bynum comes back Gasols numbers will drop. But it will be better for the Lakers because our defensive presence will improve. Kobe is playing outstanding BBALL though in the lowest minutes he's played all decade.

CP3
Dwight
Kobe

is my list.


EDIT: no way Durant wins it this year with the way he's playing. Westbrook has drastically improved his play and carried them against the Celtics when Durant was out. Durant has not been efficient at all but he is scoring so i guess he will win the scoring title. He's not even top 5 on my list.

Avenged
11-25-2010, 05:02 PM
Once the Heat go on their run.. expect Wade/Lebron to make a running for MVP as well. It's only a matter of time.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Once the Heat go on their run.. expect Wade/Lebron to make a running for MVP as well. It's only a matter of time.

It's not going to happen. We are almost a quarter of the way through the season and they have not found themselves. Their stats continue to fluctuate. I haven't seen a solid performance from both wade and lebron in the same game. You can keep waiting but i doubt it's gonna happen. this year at least.

Avenged
11-25-2010, 05:13 PM
It's not going to happen. We are almost a quarter of the way through the season and they have not found themselves. Their stats continue to fluctuate. I haven't seen a solid performance from both wade and lebron in the same game. You can keep waiting but i doubt it's gonna happen. this year at least.

A quarter... which is still WAY early in the season. There's been about 15 games played? If people are expecting the Heat to keep struggling this way, everyone is in for a rude awakening. I love their struggles right now, but they will eventually pick it up. From what I read in this thread, you practically don't think anyone has a chance other than Kobe.. Not even Gasol who's having a great year.

Many things can happen from here on out.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 05:16 PM
Yeah, when Bynum comes back Gasols numbers will drop. But it will be better for the Lakers because our defensive presence will improve. Kobe is playing outstanding BBALL though in the lowest minutes he's played all decade.

CP3
Dwight
Kobe

is my list.


EDIT: no way Durant wins it this year with the way he's playing. Westbrook has drastically improved his play and carried them against the Celtics when Durant was out. Durant has not been efficient at all but he is scoring so i guess he will win the scoring title. He's not even top 5 on my list.

That's my list right now, but I expect the Hornets to continue losing and finish somewhere as the 5th-8th seed. Which would make Dwight my MVP with Kobe a close 2nd, I think Kobe may have one run left at the MVP battle.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 05:17 PM
A quarter... which is still WAY early in the season. There's been about 15 games played? If people are expecting the Heat to keep struggling this way, everyone is in for a rude awakening. I love their struggles right now, but they will eventually pick it up. From what I read in this thread, you practically don't think anyone has a chance other than Kobe.. Not even Gasol who's having a great year.

Many things can happen from here on out.

No I have CP3 and Dwight ahead of Kobe. but i WANT KOBE TO WIN IT. i never said no one has a chance but kobe. :rolleyes:


yeah, well the beginning of the season is often a good indicator of how things are going to turn out in the end.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 05:19 PM
That's my list right now, but I expect the Hornets to continue losing and finish somewhere as the 5th-8th seed. Which would make Dwight my MVP with Kobe a close 2nd, I think Kobe may have one run left at the MVP battle.

I think this year might be a lot like 08. I dont think the Hornets will keep losing. THey will probably finish 3rd or 4th but not anything below that. Dwight should definately be up there. If he can continue to put up points and carry his team on his back like he has been doing the past 3 years then he should definately be a top contender.

Yeah, im hoping this is the year but the way cp3 and dwight are playing along with kobes decreased minutes i dont think it's gonna happen. who knows though?

Raph12
11-25-2010, 05:41 PM
I think this year might be a lot like 08. I dont think the Hornets will keep losing. THey will probably finish 3rd or 4th but not anything below that. Dwight should definately be up there. If he can continue to put up points and carry his team on his back like he has been doing the past 3 years then he should definately be a top contender.

Yeah, im hoping this is the year but the way cp3 and dwight are playing along with kobes decreased minutes i dont think it's gonna happen. who knows though?

It's really too early to tell, CP3 has been playing his best ball but will have to give it 100% to stay in the Top 3 out West. Consistency is key for the Top 5 MVP candidates, if they can put up big numbers while winning for the full season, choosing an MVP will not be easy... I think some guys or their teams will drop off by the AS break, by then we'll have a better idea of who the legit candidates are.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 05:44 PM
It's really too early to tell, CP3 has been playing his best ball but will have to give it 100% to stay in the Top 3 out West. Consistency is key for the Top 5 MVP candidates, if they can put up big numbers while winning for the full season, choosing an MVP will not be easy... I think some guys or their teams will drop off by the AS break, by then we'll have a better idea of who the legit candidates are.

yeah but it's a great idea for the media to keep awarding player of the week and keep updating these types of lists because in the end instead of looking at the stat sheet they can just go back to keep seeing who was on top week in and week out to get a better gauge of who should win MVP.

ko8e24
11-25-2010, 05:46 PM
A quarter... which is still WAY early in the season. There's been about 15 games played? If people are expecting the Heat to keep struggling this way, everyone is in for a rude awakening. I love their struggles right now, but they will eventually pick it up. From what I read in this thread, you practically don't think anyone has a chance other than Kobe.. Not even Gasol who's having a great year.

Many things can happen from here on out.

True, but the one thing about a true MVP is that he earned the award on the basis of playing at a high level of consistency from the beginning to the end. No way D-Wade even sniffs the MVP award this season, and LeBron may get consideration since he has pretty good stats and is the 2x defending league MVP, but it's a turn off when the voters vote him those 2 yrs and he couldn't even lead his team to the finals in those 2 yrs.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 06:03 PM
yeah but it's a great idea for the media to keep awarding player of the week and keep updating these types of lists because in the end instead of looking at the stat sheet they can just go back to keep seeing who was on top week in and week out to get a better gauge of who should win MVP.

True but a lot of times, the lists suck, so that sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 06:19 PM
True but a lot of times, the lists suck, so that sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

yea true but just to be able to reflect one what happened week in and week out is a good thing. im not talking about MVP lists im talking about the player of the week or top players of the week. because the MVP lists are cumulative.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 06:21 PM
True, but the one thing about a true MVP is that he earned the award on the basis of playing at a high level of consistency from the beginning to the end. No way D-Wade even sniffs the MVP award this season, and LeBron may get consideration since he has pretty good stats and is the 2x defending league MVP, but it's a turn off when the voters vote him those 2 yrs and he couldn't even lead his team to the finals in those 2 yrs.

He just wants someone other than Kobe to win it. Ever since he's came on this site he never gives Kobe the props he deserves. He always points it some other direction. Just like he was saying that Durant was gonna win it this year but Durant is not where near the top 10 players in the NBA RIGHT NOW!!

Avenged
11-25-2010, 06:31 PM
He just wants someone other than Kobe to win it. Ever since he's came on this site he never gives Kobe the props he deserves. He always points it some other direction. Just like he was saying that Durant was gonna win it this year but Durant is not where near the top 10 players in the NBA RIGHT NOW!!

:laugh2: kind of funny seeing as how I'm a Lakers fan.. and oh wait, I have a Kobe sig.. :eyebrow:

Just because I feel one of the 1 Heat stars will be in the running [didn't even say they would win :laugh2:] doesn't mean I'm putting Kobe down. I haven't said Kobe won't win whatsoever, you seem to think 15 games in, and that's who the winner will be who ever is at the top at the moment. It's a long season to go, and you took ko8e24 words out of context, seeing as how he agreed with me.

BTW.. Durant still has a good chance to win it... seeing as how [again] 15 games in the season..

jp611
11-25-2010, 06:34 PM
its gotta be d-rose if he keeps this up

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 06:34 PM
:laugh2: kind of funny seeing as how I'm a Lakers fan.. and oh wait, I have a Kobe sig.. :eyebrow:

Just because I feel one of the 1 Heat stars will be in the running [didn't even say they would win :laugh2:] doesn't mean I'm putting Kobe down. I haven't said Kobe won't win whatsoever, you seem to think 15 games in, and that's who the winner will be who ever is at the top at the moment. It's a long season to go, and you took ko8e24 words out of context, seeing as how he agreed with me.

BTW.. Durant still has a good chance to win it... seeing as how [again] 15 games in the season..


Lakers fan, Kobe sig, or not you hardly ever give Kobe respect when he deserves it.

I didn't even say Kobe would win it yet you claim I don't give respect to Gasol because I place Kobe above him? :rolleyes:

Okay buddy.

Avenged
11-25-2010, 06:51 PM
Lakers fan, Kobe sig, or not you hardly ever give Kobe respect when he deserves it.

I didn't even say Kobe would win it yet you claim I don't give respect to Gasol because I place Kobe above him? :rolleyes:

Okay buddy.

Wow.. Just wow.. You completely twist everything to your advantage. :laugh2: Go look at the very 1st page of this thread.. I don't think I'm praising Gasol, in fact I said: "I been arguing for Gasol to be ahead of Kobe for a while but if you've seen him play, you would see he seems to be completely lost on some nights." Implying that Kobe belongs ahead of Gasol.

BTW, you been saying Kobe would win it before the season even began. Quit trying to be un-bias when it benefits you when you're clearly not.

goose14741
11-25-2010, 06:53 PM
lol at Howard.

are you kiding? that comment might be more random then the bizarre fact that you like the effing yankees and cavs, you one in 6 billion. its most valuable player to their team award and howards presence which makes him a very serious candidate.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 06:58 PM
Wow.. Just wow.. You completely twist everything to your advantage. :laugh2: Go look at the very 1st page of this thread.. I don't think I'm praising Gasol, in fact I said: "I been arguing for Gasol to be ahead of Kobe for a while but if you've seen him play, you would see he seems to be completely lost on some nights." Implying that Kobe belongs ahead of Gasol.

BTW, you been saying Kobe would win it before the season even began. Quit trying to be un-bias when it benefits you when you're clearly not.


I seen that. You said I can't see anyone else winning the award besides Kobe when i didnt even say Kobe would win the award. And then you say that im ignoring Gasol while i have Kobe ahead implying that Gasol should be ahead of Kobe. So you contradict yourself.

Yeah me wanting Kobe to win it compared to if he's going to win it are two completely different things.

Im a Laker fan. Everyone is biased. Get that outta here. Being a fan of any team comes with Bias! It's PSD! it's a website. being a fan of the game and of a team and being biased for that team is not a crime. only on PSD it is.


I can choose to be biased and unbiased as i choose. you are NO ONE to me to tell me what to do.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 07:01 PM
yea true but just to be able to reflect one what happened week in and week out is a good thing. im not talking about MVP lists im talking about the player of the week or top players of the week. because the MVP lists are cumulative.

I can agree with this, speaking of POY honors, Dwight's put up 26-18-1-3-2 vs the Spurs and 24-18-1-1-1 against the Heat, if he puts up anything near that in the games against the Cavs and Wiz (and he should), than he'll be the unanimous POY this week... That would be 2 wins out of 4 possible times.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 07:03 PM
I can agree with this, speaking of POY honors, Dwight's put up 26-18-1-3-2 vs the Spurs and 24-18-1-1-1 against the Heat, if he puts up anything near that in the games against the Cavs and Wiz (and he should), than he'll be the unanimous POY this week.

LOL! that's cool. his offensive game has improved. dont know if it's a result of his work ethic or just his actual team just stinking it up but nonetheless it has improved. aside from Kobe he is actually my next favorite player.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 07:08 PM
LOL! that's cool. his offensive game has improved. dont know if it's a result of his work ethic or just his actual team just stinking it up but nonetheless it has improved. aside from Kobe he is actually my next favorite player.

That's funny, aside from Dwight, Kobe's my fav player in the league lol... I think it's a combination of his confidence in his game and the work he's put in over the last few years.

If you watched him last season, you'd see glimpses of him scoring the way we see him scoring now, but he's so much more confident in his game this season that he's demanding the ball when he's on the floor even late in games. The team's poor play has helped as well, we can just dump it into him when we have nothing going on offense and he'll score or draw a double and kick it out, which opens up our shooters.

It's gonna be a great season...

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 07:14 PM
That's funny, aside from Dwight, Kobe's my fav player in the league lol... I think it's a combination of his confidence in his game and the work he's put in over the last few years.

If you watched him last season, you'd see glimpses of him scoring the way we see him scoring now, but he's so much more confident in his game this season that he's demanding the ball when he's on the floor even late in games. The team's poor play has helped as well, we can just dump it into him when we have nothing going on offense and he'll score or draw a double and kick it out, which opens up our shooters.

It's gonna be a great season...

LOL! crazy!

i wonder if that's a result of him working with Hakeem (if im not mistaken) over the summer to work on his offensive game. i know it definately helped Kobe to become one of the best post players in the league.


but agree this season is going to be one of the most competitive in a while. In both conferences. East - Boston, Orlando, Miami, Bulls, Hawks West- Lakers, Spurs, Thunder, Hornets, Denver, Mavs.


definately going to be an interesting year.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 07:25 PM
LOL! crazy!

i wonder if that's a result of him working with Hakeem (if im not mistaken) over the summer to work on his offensive game. i know it definately helped Kobe to become one of the best post players in the league.


but agree this season is going to be one of the most competitive in a while. In both conferences. East - Boston, Orlando, Miami, Bulls, Hawks West- Lakers, Spurs, Thunder, Hornets, Denver, Mavs.


definately going to be an interesting year.

How weird is that lol...

Well Dwight only worked out with Hakeem for a week, but he said Hakeem helped him with the mental part of his game which allowed him to tap into his offensive arsenal and get more comfortable when making his moves... So yeah he was a part of it.

To me the the Hornets and Nuggets don't seem like much of a threat, CP3 and Melo are playing at a very high level, but both still want to bolt. If the Spurs stay healthy, maybe they could be the team in the West to finally challenge LA in the playoffs. The East is very top-heavy, but the playoffs will be interesting, the 4-5 matchup (likely Chitown and Atlanta) will be interesting in the playoffs and then Orlando-Boston-Miami will always be good...

I'm so excited lol.

Hawkeye15
11-25-2010, 07:25 PM
its gotta be d-rose if he keeps this up

He isn't even the best at his position. On an 8-5 team that will probably be a 4 seed tops. How does that warrant MVP?

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 07:29 PM
How weird is that lol...

Well Dwight only worked out with Hakeem for a week, but he said Hakeem helped him with the mental part of his game which allowed him to tap into his offensive arsenal and get more comfortable when making his moves... So yeah he was a part of it.

To me the the Hornets and Nuggets don't seem like much of a threat, CP3 and Melo are playing at a very high level, but both still want to bolt. If the Spurs stay healthy, maybe they could be the team in the West to finally challenge LA in the playoffs. The East is very top-heavy, but the playoffs will be interesting, the 4-5 matchup (likely Chitown and Atlanta) will be interesting in the playoffs and then Orlando-Boston-Miami will always be good...

I'm so excited lol.

Great minds think alike. ;)

Yeah well i dont think Kobe worked out with him for too long either. But it definately shows up in their play.

Yeah on paper they arent that scary but the Nuggets is always a tough game for the Lakers. I dont think they can handle the Lakers in a 7 game series though. I can't wait for playoffs!!!!!! :mad: :cry:

ko8e24
11-25-2010, 07:29 PM
Fellas fellas (KarsonRydah and Avenged24)

Why argue amongst ourselves??? All 3 of us support the Lakers, support Kobe, support Pau. Let's not get into a little bickering over such a small thing.

Let just Mamba be Mamba, the Spaniard be the Spaniard, and then we'll go from there.

All good in Lakerland fellas! :)

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Fellas fellas (KarsonRydah and Avenged24)

Why argue amongst ourselves??? All 3 of us support the Lakers, support Kobe, support Pau. Let's not get into a little bickering over such a small thing.

Let just Mamba be Mamba, the Spaniard be the Spaniard, and then we'll go from there.

All good in Lakerland fellas! :)

:worthy: :rimshot:

Raph12
11-25-2010, 07:42 PM
Great minds think alike. ;)

Yeah well i dont think Kobe worked out with him for too long either. But it definately shows up in their play.

Yeah on paper they arent that scary but the Nuggets is always a tough game for the Lakers. I dont think they can handle the Lakers in a 7 game series though. I can't wait for playoffs!!!!!! :mad: :cry:

I liked Kobe back in the day when AI was breaking ankles in the Finals. I admired his work ethic, confidence and at some points, his arrogance lol. When Shaq left, I was disappointed that Phil left with him, but Kobe kept LA afloat, people tend to forget that LA was already #1 in the West when they stole Pau from Memphis. Kobe's an all-time great and I'll alway appreciate his drive and will to get better and win.

Kobe and Dwight look very fluent in the post, very smooth and relaxed, I think that's something the Dream helped both of them with. I think the mechanics were there, but he helped them get comfortable with translating it into the real game.

I don't think Melo sticks around long enough for the playoffs to begin, he'd look better in a dark-blue jersey anyways. ;):p

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 07:55 PM
I liked Kobe back in the day when AI was breaking ankles in the Finals. I admired his work ethic, confidence and at some points, his arrogance lol. When Shaq left, I was disappointed that Phil left with him, but Kobe kept LA afloat, people tend to forget that LA was already #1 in the West when they stole Pau from Memphis. Kobe's an all-time great and I'll alway appreciate his drive and will to get better and win.

Kobe and Dwight look very fluent in the post, very smooth and relaxed, I think that's something the Dream helped both of them with. I think the mechanics were there, but he helped them get comfortable with translating it into the real game.

I don't think Melo sticks around long enough for the playoffs to begin, he'd look better in a dark-blue jersey anyways. ;):p

Yeah, i think everyone forgets that.

But indeed, Dwights post game has improved. He's still young and gots a lot of room to grow.

Wow. Melo and Dwight :drool:

D1JM
11-25-2010, 08:03 PM
He isn't even the best at his position. On an 8-5 team that will probably be a 4 seed tops. How does that warrant MVP?

chicagobulls: Did you know: Derrick Rose has the highest pts + reb + ast average in the NBA at 39.0/game (Gasol/Durant 38.2) #NBAAllStar


He is putting up the numbers, but the record would have to improve an boozer will help it improve. Also, bulls SOS is the highest in the NBA so we've had the toughest schedule up to date and being 8-5 is nothing to be ashamed.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 08:09 PM
Yeah, i think everyone forgets that.

But indeed, Dwights post game has improved. He's still young and gots a lot of room to grow.

Wow. Melo and Dwight :drool:

If Bynum didn't get injured, Pau-to-LA may never have even happened.

That's the thing, Dwight was a 18yr old athletic rook who depended on his athleticism for everything. His actual skills got better each year, but everyone wrote him off last season saying he's just a defensive and rebounding center. I told Hawkeye before the preseason began that Dwight would be one of those guys who got better as they get older, because he doesn't have a natural feel, he's one of those guys who just focuses on a part of his game and then puts the work in during the offseason to improve it.

Melo-Dwight likely won't happen, but it's a nice thought...

Kutchie03
11-25-2010, 08:17 PM
Not when Gasol has a 3.3 Win Shares to Kobe's 2.0 and when Gasol leads the league in both Win Shares and PER.

yea man we heard you the first time stop repeating yourself

Raph12
11-25-2010, 08:20 PM
Not when Gasol has a 3.3 Win Shares to Kobe's 2.0 and when Gasol leads the league in both Win Shares and PER.

CP3 leads in PER and WSP48M... Did you watch Gasol vs Noah, he got raped, anally.

MacFitz92
11-25-2010, 08:25 PM
I guess the league's 2nd leading scorer, who has the best FG% out of the top 10 scorers with 8.4 rebounds a game who has stepped up his defense big time isn't considered a top 10 in the MVP watch. Hmm.

MacFitz92
11-25-2010, 08:26 PM
Also let it be noted that Dirk is shooting 10% more than Kobe.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 08:27 PM
CP3 leads in PER and WSP48M... Did you watch Gasol vs Noah, he got raped, anally.


Until Gasol can step it up against elite or just ABOVE average bigs I wouldn't even put him and. MVP. in the same sentence. or breath.

MacFitz92
11-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Also let it be noted that the team is 10-4 without Roddy Beaubois and he has carried the team on his back in some of the wins.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 08:34 PM
Also let it be noted that Dirk is shooting 10% more than Kobe.


I guess the league's 2nd leading scorer, who has the best FG% out of the top 10 scorers with 8.4 rebounds a game who has stepped up his defense big time isn't considered a top 10 in the MVP watch. Hmm.

Didn't even realize he was not in the top 10. He should be in there.


Kobe is averaging 5-6 less minutes than Dirk and they play 2 different positions with 2 entirely different games so FG% cannot be compared. But per 48


http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=PER48&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=


:shrug:

Raph12
11-25-2010, 08:35 PM
Until Gasol can step it up against elite or just ABOVE average bigs I wouldn't even put him and. MVP. in the same sentence. or breath.

Gasol is one of the most skilled big men in the league, but he needs to grow a pair and do it against the best, if he wants to be the best. Kobe's never-say-die attitude, his drive, his toughness, his will to win and his confidence is just a couple of the reasons why he's the Lakers MVP. Pau is a great 2nd option, the best in the league, but it's definitely still Kobe's team.

Pau needs to step up, play well against every team, not just feed off the bad ones. Reminds me of the Cavs, beat up on all of the bad teams only to lose to the good ones.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Gasol is one of the most skilled big men in the league, but he needs to grow a pair and do it against the best, if he wants to be the best. Kobe's never-say-die attitude, his drive, his toughness, his will to win and his confidence is just a couple of the reasons why he's the Lakers MVP. Pau is a great 2nd option, the best in the league, but it's definitely still Kobe's team.

Pau needs to step up, play well against every team, not just feed off the bad ones. Reminds me of the Cavs, beat up on all of the bad teams only to lose to the good ones.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

This Lakers are PAU'S TEAM talk has been irritating me when it's clearly not the case. This is why I can't wait for Bynum to come back so our defense becomes more efficient.

Raph12
11-25-2010, 08:44 PM
Couldn't have said it any better myself.

This Lakers are PAU'S TEAM talk has been irritating me when it's clearly not the case. This is why I can't wait for Bynum to come back so our defense becomes more efficient.

With Pau at center, the Lakers' defense has dropped off to 11th in the league, with Bynum playing 65 games last season they were 4th... If LA expects to win again, they'll need Bynum back, his presence alone makes them a top defensive team and gives them two 7 footers to get offensive rbs as well for easy baskets.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 08:49 PM
With Pau at center, the Lakers' defense has dropped off to 11th in the league, with Bynum playing 65 games last season they were 4th... If LA expects to win again, they'll need Bynum back, his presence alone makes them a top defensive team and gives them two 7 footers to get offensive rbs as well for easy baskets.

Yeah with Bynum our defense will become a top 5 defense in the league. Along with our #1 offense we are going to be a force to be reckoned with barring injuries..

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 08:50 PM
not that we already aren't though. lol. :p

Raph12
11-26-2010, 12:49 AM
Yeah with Bynum our defense will become a top 5 defense in the league. Along with our #1 offense we are going to be a force to be reckoned with barring injuries..

Well I'd think that the offense would drop off slightly because now you have a 7' 265lb boulder clogging the lane, but your team will definitely be better.

tredigs
11-26-2010, 01:07 AM
Gasol is one of the most skilled big men in the league, but he needs to grow a pair and do it against the best, if he wants to be the best. Kobe's never-say-die attitude, his drive, his toughness, his will to win and his confidence is just a couple of the reasons why he's the Lakers MVP. Pau is a great 2nd option, the best in the league, but it's definitely still Kobe's team.

Pau needs to step up, play well against every team, not just feed off the bad ones. Reminds me of the Cavs, beat up on all of the bad teams only to lose to the good ones.

Really dude? The guy killed it the entire season last year, through the playoffs (where he led the league in win shares), and into this year. I'm fairly certain he crossed paths with one or two elite teams in that run.

Simply put, it's no coincidence that the year Pau came in is the same year that the Lakers went from perennial first round knockouts (if they even made the playoffs) to two titles in 3 years, and the best team in the league. The knocks on him being soft are tired and entirely outdated. He's the best big in the league at this point.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 01:18 AM
Really dude? The guy killed it the entire season last year, through the playoffs (where he led the league in win shares), and into this year. I'm fairly certain he crossed paths with one or two elite teams in that run.

Simply put, it's no coincidence that the year Pau came in is the same year that the Lakers went from perennial first round knockouts (if they even made the playoffs) to two titles in 3 years, and the best team in the league. The knocks on him being soft are tired and entirely outdated. He's the best big in the league at this point.

No. With Bynum before he went down, the lakers were the #1 seed. we didn't inquire about Pau until he went down. Lakers were on pace to head to the finals. We would not have been first round knockouts! I can guarentee you this, with Bynum in Pau's place in that 2008 finals run it would have been a closer series, guaranteed.

Yes, Pau is the best all around big men offensively in the NBA. but his defensive presence is lacking. You clearly don't watch Laker games where POINT GUARDS and above average big men TEAR him apart night in and night out on the defensive end.

tredigs
11-26-2010, 01:52 AM
No. With Bynum before he went down, the lakers were the #1 seed. we didn't inquire about Pau until he went down. Lakers were on pace to head to the finals. We would not have been first round knockouts! I can guarentee you this, with Bynum in Pau's place in that 2008 finals run it would have been a closer series, guaranteed.

Yes, Pau is the best all around big men offensively in the NBA. but his defensive presence is lacking. You clearly don't watch Laker games where POINT GUARDS and above average big men TEAR him apart night in and night out on the defensive end.

-GASP- Bynum got hurt? Yes, in the 50 or so games a year that Bynum is healthy and on the court, he's a great player and has the ability to carry a teams interior. The Lakers have never been good without an elite interior big, which Bynum was becoming, but obviously you cannot depend on a player like that.

Then Pau came to town and the Lakers mowed through everyone. Might have lost 1 game the month he came in. They were dominant, and it was Pau that made the difference with Bynum out. Now, your cries about his defense are ridiculous also. He's not elite, but he's better than average, and generally plays great against other PF's (while dominating them offensively). He also pulls down a ton of boards, and facilitates as good as any big in the league. So when Bynum lets his team down by being incessantly injured then yes, Pau is going to struggle against opposing centers, but when he's in his true role he kills. I watch a ton of Lakers games (as boring as they are), and there's no denying Pau's absolute MONSTER, and NECESSARY impact to their success.

Check out his production (both own and opponents) and his on/off stats this season. He is their core, and he is their best player now. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011LAL.HTM

Iodine
11-26-2010, 02:01 AM
Tre, stop with the logic man

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 02:01 AM
-GASP- Bynum got hurt? Yes, in the 50 or so games a year that Bynum is healthy and on the court, he's a great player and has the ability to carry a teams interior. The Lakers have never been good without an elite interior big, which Bynum was becoming, but obviously you cannot depend on a player like that.

Then Pau came to town and the Lakers mowed through everyone. Might have lost 1 game the month he came in. They were dominant, and it was Pau that made the difference with Bynum out. Now, your cries about his defense are ridiculous also. He's not elite, but he's better than average, and generally plays great against other PF's (while dominating them offensively). He also pulls down a ton of boards, and facilitates as good as any big in the league. So when Bynum lets his team down by being incessantly injured then yes, Pau is going to struggle against opposing centers, but when he's in his true role he kills. I watch a ton of Lakers games (as boring as they are), and there's no denying Pau's absolute MONSTER, and NECESSARY impact to their success.

Check out his production (both own and opponents) and his on/off stats this season. He is their core, and he is their best player now. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011LAL.HTM

what is this nonsense mumbo jumbo you just wrote? i acknowledged Pau being a beast. On the OFFFFFFEEEENNNSSSIVVVVVEEEE END! he is a beast. he tears apart every guy he plays on the offensive end, MOST of the time (ahem Noah ahem). No one's saying we don't need him. I'm saying he gets owned in the paint. Even last year against teams throughout the playoffs he was getting owned in the paint. Rewatch that OKC series where westbrook was able to penetrate and pau would stand and just watch. Or watch how ROndo in game 5 ripped him a new one. or how Amare dropped 40 on him.


yes, pau is great, but he sucks defensively, out of position or not. no one should let a point guard constantly penetrate like that. and with above average bigs he gets owned. he is not the best player on the lakers at all. win shares or whatever you want to bring up, he's not the best.

Avenged
11-26-2010, 02:27 AM
Tre stop with your logic.. trust me with this one, it's impossible. Just praise Kobe so you can win.

tredigs
11-26-2010, 02:36 AM
Tre stop with your logic.. trust me with this one, it's impossible. Just praise Kobe so you can win.

I know, I gave up.

Being witness to Kobe > Heaven.

:worthy:

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 02:37 AM
Tre stop with your logic.. trust me with this one, it's impossible. Just praise Kobe so you can win.

:clap: :rolleyes:

Raph12
11-26-2010, 02:55 AM
@ Tre - Pau was shutdown by Noah and Nene this season, he scored most of his baskets against those two on tip-ins or passes by Kobe/teammates.

As for last season, he shot under 50% against: the Bobcats (40.7), Cavs (37.5), Nuggets (45.8), Pistons (36.4), Pacers (48.3), Clipps (45.8), Grizz (48.0), Heat (44.4), Thunder (39.4), Spurs (49.0) and Raptors (41.2)... These teams have either very physical or very athletic big men, either way that's over a 3rd of the league's teams that Pau struggled against offensively. On defense, the Lakers finished 4th in DRAT as a team when Bynum played 65 games last season, never falling behind 7th throughout the year; with Pau at center, they're currently 11th.

Pau isn't consistent enough for me to believe he can sustain that type of play throughout the season. He'll drop off and return to earth sooner rather than later.

@ Iodine - Dude can you lick his nuts elsewhere?... Some people are here to have a discussion with fellow fans, not follow some dude around and hold his dick while he takes a piss.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-26-2010, 03:03 AM
-GASP- Bynum got hurt? Yes, in the 50 or so games a year that Bynum is healthy and on the court, he's a great player and has the ability to carry a teams interior. The Lakers have never been good without an elite interior big, which Bynum was becoming, but obviously you cannot depend on a player like that.

Then Pau came to town and the Lakers mowed through everyone. Might have lost 1 game the month he came in. They were dominant, and it was Pau that made the difference with Bynum out. Now, your cries about his defense are ridiculous also. He's not elite, but he's better than average, and generally plays great against other PF's (while dominating them offensively). He also pulls down a ton of boards, and facilitates as good as any big in the league. So when Bynum lets his team down by being incessantly injured then yes, Pau is going to struggle against opposing centers, but when he's in his true role he kills. I watch a ton of Lakers games (as boring as they are), and there's no denying Pau's absolute MONSTER, and NECESSARY impact to their success.

Check out his production (both own and opponents) and his on/off stats this season. He is their core, and he is their best player now. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011LAL.HTM

I find it funny that you choose to use this seasons stats as an indicator of who a better player is, 15 games into the season. Are you not the one who says that its too early to judge players and their stats? I know you said that about the Heat. Let me ask you this. Is Kobe a better player than Wade? I know you did not think so before the season started. But with Kobe leading Wade in PER and win shares per 48, I have to assume your logic remains the same. So Kobe is a better player than Wade right? And right on Par with Lebron. Right?

You have been saying that Pau has been the Lakers best player for the past couple of years, then you post 82games.com as your proof. But last year, on that same page, it showed Kobe was by far the most effective Laker. His production vs his opponents was rediculous. And that was one of his worst years due to his injuries. The year before was the same thing. http://www.82games.com/0809/0809LAL.HTM. I would post the 09/10 season stats but for some reason they are not available right now. As soon as they are, Ill make sure to drop them off to you.

You point out that since Pau came, that is the time when the Lakers became unstoppable. As if becuse he came after Bryant was here, it means that Pau is the reason for the success. But if it was the other way around and Kobe went to Memphis, they would have the same success. But would you say that Kobe is the reason they are now winning? Or would you still give the credit to Pau? Ill put it this way, if Pau got traded to the Lakers and Kobe was not here, its Memphis further west all over again.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 03:04 AM
@ Tre - Pau was shutdown by Noah and Nene this season, he scored most of his baskets against those two on tip-ins or passes by Kobe/teammates.

As for last season, he shot under 50% against: the Bobcats (40.7), Cavs (37.5), Nuggets (45.8), Pistons (36.4), Pacers (48.3), Clipps (45.8), Grizz (48.0), Heat (44.4), Thunder (39.4), Spurs (49.0) and Raptors (41.2)... These teams have either very physical or very athletic big men, either way that's over a 3rd of the league's teams that Pau struggled against offensively. On defense, the Lakers finished 4th in DRAT as a team when Bynum played 65 games last season, never falling behind 7th throughout the year; with Pau at center, they're currently 11th.

Pau isn't consistent enough for me to believe he can sustain that type of play throughout the season. He'll drop off and return to earth sooner rather than later.

@ Iodine - Dude can you lick his nuts elsewhere?... Some people are here to have a discussion with fellow fans, not follow some dude around and hold his dick while he takes a piss.

hahahahaha i am literally dying of laughter with this one. ive noticed this a lot. hahahaahahaha...


but yeah, as i said before, against above average big men Gasol goes into his turtle shell. I wasn't even talking about his offensive game i was talking about his defense but there are the offensive stats for him right there. I dont understand why people feel the need that in order for Gasol to be considered a good player he has to be better than Kobe. He really doesn't so when you make that comparison it just falls. Kobe thrives against playing against competition. and never does his defense fall off EVER.

Ebbs
11-26-2010, 03:28 AM
Wow fail at Dirk somehow not making the list

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 03:36 AM
Wow fail at Dirk somehow not making the list

:nod:

Raph12
11-26-2010, 03:44 AM
Dirk may be the quietest star in the league; his team is doing okay and his stats are good, but no one has seemed to notice lol.

Bausman
11-26-2010, 03:52 AM
Not when Gasol has a 3.3 Win Shares to Kobe's 2.0 and when Gasol leads the league in both Win Shares and PER.

Thats all BS. The play on the same team. They all share the wins. How many rings Adam Morrison get? I dunno what a win share is but it sounds like some communist **** to me. Lets wait till Bynum gets back then we'll see how much they share.

I seen co ROY before and i'd love to see a co MVP from the same team. Or give it to Gasol and make Nash give one to Kobe...Whatever year he averaged 35.

LeBrowns
11-26-2010, 04:52 AM
So tired of Rondo getting all this publicity. Throw him on another team without 4 future hall of famers and see how many assists he racks up. The guy is a guard and he can't even shoot the basketball.

kozelkid
11-26-2010, 02:09 PM
Thats all BS. The play on the same team. They all share the wins. How many rings Adam Morrison get? I dunno what a win share is but it sounds like some communist **** to me. Lets wait till Bynum gets back then we'll see how much they share.

I seen co ROY before and i'd love to see a co MVP from the same team. Or give it to Gasol and make Nash give one to Kobe...Whatever year he averaged 35.

I just found my new sig.

And for those who claim that Gasol struggles against elite big men, he sure didn't struggle in the 09 finals.
Just because he has a couple of bad games against two really good defensive big men in Nene and Noah, doesn't mean he isn't mvp caliber. He has been beasting and has been the leader of that team. Now Kobe is still likely the leader of that team, but Gasol has been playing better. I'd also likely to add that unfortunately for Gasol, he'll never have a shot at MVP or get the credit he deserves while he is with Kobe. Of course I think he'll prefer playing for a winner.

Hawkeye15
11-26-2010, 02:15 PM
Thats all BS. The play on the same team. They all share the wins. How many rings Adam Morrison get? I dunno what a win share is but it sounds like some communist **** to me. Lets wait till Bynum gets back then we'll see how much they share.

I seen co ROY before and i'd love to see a co MVP from the same team. Or give it to Gasol and make Nash give one to Kobe...Whatever year he averaged 35.

learn what it is before you blast a post using it. Fact is, Gasol has indeed been the Lakers MVP both last season, and so far this season. Rational Laker fans who aren't so infatuated with Kobe know this. Kobe is still great, but he has been on the decline, and now picks his spots to dominate. While Kobe suffered through a pretty rough stretch of play last season over the last 30 games, Pau made sure they entered the postseason with the best record in the west.

I find it funny that Laker fans are now arguing between their two best players. Neither on should win MVP. It should go to CP3 or Dwight at this point, and we have a lot of games to figure out the rest

Avenged
11-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I just found my new sig.

And for those who claim that Gasol struggles against elite big men, he sure didn't struggle in the 09 finals.
Just because he has a couple of bad games against two really good defensive big men in Nene and Noah, doesn't mean he isn't mvp caliber. He has been beasting and has been the leader of that team. Now Kobe is still likely the leader of that team, but Gasol has been playing better. I'd also likely to add that unfortunately for Gasol, he'll never have a shot at MVP or get the credit he deserves while he is with Kobe. Of course I think he'll prefer playing for a winner.

He struggled against Darko as well, who's really turned it around this season..

But I pretty much agree with what you said except for the leader part. That spot belongs to Kobe.. But Gasol has been playing a tad bit better than Kobe, doesn't mean Gasol is better than him or anything.. I just don't see how some fans get so offended when someone says Gasol has been playing great.. It's not like other stars don't struggle on some nights: heck Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Durant, Rose and yes Kobe [etc..] all have their bad games..

I mean he just had a 10 for 10 game I believe against the Warriors and the other assets of the stat sheet were impressive as well..

tredigs
11-26-2010, 03:18 PM
I find it funny that you choose to use this seasons stats as an indicator of who a better player is, 15 games into the season. Are you not the one who says that its too early to judge players and their stats? I know you said that about the Heat. Let me ask you this. Is Kobe a better player than Wade? I know you did not think so before the season started. But with Kobe leading Wade in PER and win shares per 48, I have to assume your logic remains the same. So Kobe is a better player than Wade right? And right on Par with Lebron. Right?

You have been saying that Pau has been the Lakers best player for the past couple of years, then you post 82games.com as your proof. But last year, on that same page, it showed Kobe was by far the most effective Laker. His production vs his opponents was rediculous. And that was one of his worst years due to his injuries. The year before was the same thing. http://www.82games.com/0809/0809LAL.HTM. I would post the 09/10 season stats but for some reason they are not available right now. As soon as they are, Ill make sure to drop them off to you.

You point out that since Pau came, that is the time when the Lakers became unstoppable. As if becuse he came after Bryant was here, it means that Pau is the reason for the success. But if it was the other way around and Kobe went to Memphis, they would have the same success. But would you say that Kobe is the reason they are now winning? Or would you still give the credit to Pau? Ill put it this way, if Pau got traded to the Lakers and Kobe was not here, its Memphis further west all over again.

By far? Hardly; they were comparable as far as that 82games measure goes last season, plus Pau anchored them at the end. And 82 games is by NO MEANS the only judge of how I rate a player, it just happens that Pau's adjusted on/off production on there is so vast (not just in comparison to Kobe's, but nearly every player in the league) at +16 on / -13 off that it was worth bringing up. When something is that dramatic, it bears mentioning.

You also have to understand that their situation is in no way comparable to the Heat's dilemma. The Lakers are a solid, well balanced team that has had years and years to come together and form their current continuity. The Heat have two superstars in their prime, who essentially have the exact same role on their previous squads coming together and trying to find a cohesive balance between them. Throw in an elite PF into the mix who gets their own touches, the lack of any previous games together, some monster egos and a young head coach and you get yourself a system where looking at initial stats is almost entirely meaningless. It has literally no correlation to the shift in who the dominant player on the Lakers has been as of late.

It's not to discount Kobe or say that he's even fallen off hugely, but it's a matter of who the most productive/most necessary player to the Lakers success has been this season. And that answer is undeniably Pau to me.

Pau's averaging: 22.1 pts (55%) 12rbs 4.1ast 1.9blks .7stls 1.7TO's with a WS/48 of .282 (monsterous) and is second in the league in PER at 26.83.

Kobe's averaging: 25.3 pts (43%. Ouch) 6rbs 4.8ast .2blk 1stl 3TO's with a WS/48 of .195 and is 9th in the league in PER at 23.78.

I've also watched a number of their games, and it's pretty clear to me and most people I talk to who's been their best player. Those stats just go further to prove it.

That said, if we had to choose MVP's at this point (which honestly, it's ridiculous we're even talking about this right now. But I guess it's fun), I'd go with:

Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Manu Ginobili (Like Dirk, brought them back in more games than I can count)

Kobe, Westbrook, Tony Parker and Rondo would probably round out my top ten in no particular order.

JordansBulls
11-26-2010, 03:23 PM
Hey hater, did you even bother to compare their stats? I think something else might be ridiculous, the Kobe hater.

Yes I compared them and that is why Gasol has a higher Win Shares and PER because he has better stats. That is what those tools are for.

Sir Buckets
11-26-2010, 04:26 PM
um, that is what he was using dude. What are you using to evaluate? 2005 highlight videos?:laugh2:

ManRam
11-26-2010, 05:18 PM
Tre, stop with the logic man!

Enemey
11-26-2010, 07:24 PM
learn what it is before you blast a post using it. Fact is, Gasol has indeed been the Lakers MVP both last season, and so far this season. Rational Laker fans who aren't so infatuated with Kobe know this. Kobe is still great, but he has been on the decline, and now picks his spots to dominate. While Kobe suffered through a pretty rough stretch of play last season over the last 30 games, Pau made sure they entered the postseason with the best record in the west.

I find it funny that Laker fans are now arguing between their two best players. Neither on should win MVP. It should go to CP3 or Dwight at this point, and we have a lot of games to figure out the rest

When Gasol was out in the start of last season the lakers went 15-3 without him thats because Kobe Bryant was playing out of his mind before injuries and also Andrew Bynum stepped up big, So I believe Kobe was the MVP last year.

This year Pau is playing his best so I believe that he is MVP

kozelkid
11-26-2010, 07:25 PM
He struggled against Darko as well, who's really turned it around this season..

But I pretty much agree with what you said except for the leader part. That spot belongs to Kobe.. But Gasol has been playing a tad bit better than Kobe, doesn't mean Gasol is better than him or anything.. I just don't see how some fans get so offended when someone says Gasol has been playing great.. It's not like other stars don't struggle on some nights: heck Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Durant, Rose and yes Kobe [etc..] all have their bad games..

I mean he just had a 10 for 10 game I believe against the Warriors and the other assets of the stat sheet were impressive as well..

I actually said Kobe is the leader... ;)

Gasol definitely has been playing better thus far, and I don't think it's a question. Does it mean Gasol is the best player? Not necessarily. This team won't go without Kobe. Kobe, beyond his talent, brings the intagibles of a leader. And while we all love advanced stats, that can't be stressed enough. I'm not sure Gasol is capable of being a leader of a team. Now again, Gasol has played better this season. He has been providing great stats, and Kobe is meanwhile getting some rest and slowly recovering from surgery so he's ready when it matters.

Kashmir13579
11-26-2010, 07:32 PM
i know it will probably be chris paul but i'd like to see rondo win.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-26-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by tredigs

By far? Hardly; they were comparable as far as that 82games measure goes last season, plus Pau anchored them at the end. And 82 games is by NO MEANS the only judge of how I rate a player, it just happens that Pau's adjusted on/off production on there is so vast (not just in comparison to Kobe's, but nearly every player in the league) at +16 on / -13 off that it was worth bringing up. When something is that dramatic, it bears mentioning.

I dont believe they were comparable at all. Like I said, as soon as they are available again, I'll get them to you. And yes, Pau anchored them at the end. When Kobe missed the final 6 games and was playing hurt. I must say, the Lakers were not looking to impressive at the end. But do you remember Pau being out at the beggining of the year and the Lakers coming out with the best record in the league for the 17 games that he missed? We will see how the on/off production is once Pau is not being replaced by the rookie named Caracter. Of course there is going to be a drop off when you are being replaced by that type of talent. Meanwhile Kobe is being replaced by Shannon Brown who is playing out of his mind this year. I could have saved you the trip to 82games.com and told you who would have a better +/-.


You also have to understand that their situation is in no way comparable to the Heat's dilemma. The Lakers are a solid, well balanced team that has had years and years to come together and form their current continuity. The Heat have two superstars in their prime, who essentially have the exact same role on their previous squads coming together and trying to find a cohesive balance between them. Throw in an elite PF into the mix who gets their own touches, the lack of any previous games together, some monster egos and a young head coach and you get yourself a system where looking at initial stats is almost entirely meaningless. It has literally no correlation to the shift in who the dominant player on the Lakers has been as of late.

Okay, we'll play it your way. The Lakers and Heat have nothing to do with each other. So then by your logic, Chris Bosh is more important and a better player than D Wade. Right????

Bosh averaging 17.6 pts (51%) 7.1 rbs, 1.8ast, 0.7 stl, 0.9 blks 1.1 TO'S with a WS/48 of 0.224, TS% .598, EFG% .522 and a PER of 21.2

Wade averaging 21.1 pts (43% ouch) 5.7 rbs, 3.7 ast, 1.2 stl, 1.1 blk, 2.6 TO'S with a WS/48 of 0.124, TS% 53.2 EFG% .464, and a PER of 19.6

They are both trying to get acclimated to the same system, so they are very comparible. I never knew Bosh was so much better than Wade. Funny, thanks for showing me the way.


It's not to discount Kobe or say that he's even fallen off hugely, but it's a matter of who the most productive/most necessary player to the Lakers success has been this season. And that answer is undeniably Pau to me.
Yes, these 15 games, Pau has played better. Phil told Pau that he was going to be leaned upon heavily at the beggining of the year until Kobe gets his knee back. That is why Pau is averaging 38.3 minutes a game and Kobe is only playing 32.9 minutes a game. Once Kobe is fully recovered from off season surgery, I have no doubt he picks up his numbers for you. Just like he did when the playoffs started after he had his knee drained. The first 3 playoff games of last year, he was down right awful. You could see that by the naked eye and the stats reflected the same thing. But once the knee was drained, he picked up his PER from 16.5 and ended the playoffs at 24.7. (Highest on the Lakers)


Pau's averaging: 22.1 pts (55%) 12rbs 4.1ast 1.9blks .7stls 1.7TO's with a WS/48 of .282 (monsterous) and is second in the league in PER at 26.83.

Kobe's averaging: 25.3 pts (43%. Ouch) 6rbs 4.8ast .2blk 1stl 3TO's with a WS/48 of .195 and is 9th in the league in PER at 23.78.

I've also watched a number of their games, and it's pretty clear to me and most people I talk to who's been their best player. Those stats just go further to prove it.

I find it funny that you use per game averages for a Kobe and Pau comparison when you know Kobe plays 5.3 less minutes a game.


That said, if we had to choose MVP's at this point (which honestly, it's ridiculous we're even talking about this right now. But I guess it's fun), I'd go with:

Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Pau Gasol
Dirk Nowitzki
Manu Ginobili (Like Dirk, brought them back in more games than I can count)

Kobe, Westbrook, Tony Parker and Rondo would probably round out my top ten in no particular order.

I agree that its early to start a MVP discussion. But the funny thing is, I see you and a lot of others have no problem putting Pau up there in the discussion, but would always say Kobe has no chance because of the stacked team he plays on in previous years. Is Pau not playing on the same team? Has he not been playing next to one of the best players in the game? Is he not playing with dominant talent around him? Or do you and others feel the need to discredit Kobe at every chance? You say that he is not needed for the Lakers to be successful. Well, I could do the same for Pau. The Lakers would still make the playoffs without Pau. And most likely advance a round or two. Is Pau still in your top 3? Or do you want to go back to the logic that you used for Kobe the past couple of years? You're so quick to put Kobe back into that second fiddle role that he carried with Shaq. And you do it in every single one of your post when discussing Kobe and Pau. Even when it is not part of the discussion. I could go into your post history and find at least 10 to 15 times where you underhandingly try to proclaim Pau as the Lakers best player, "both this year and last".

marques724
11-26-2010, 09:20 PM
When Bynum comes back Pau production will slip, while Kobe's will largely stay the same. While Pau is the MVP right now I think Kobe will end up winning it.

tredigs
11-26-2010, 10:00 PM
@ the Lakers fan up there, you realize that when players are getting acclimated to a new system, it affects everyone, right? And not necessarily equally. You're still not grasping my point there. But regardless - yes, Bosh has ABSOLUTELY been better than Wade this season, especially as of late. Bosh started slow, but Wade is a complete mess out there right now, and the fact that the stats favor Bosh is zero surprise to me.

Also, all these Kobe/injury issues are just so tired and lame. Injuries (nagging or otherwise) begin to accumulate as players age, and using it as a crutch (see what I did there?) to help defend your guy only proves my point that he isn't the player they can count on most on a night to night basis.

And stop putting words in my mouth dude. Not once did I say that Kobe has no chance at the MVP in this or any other season. The fact of the matter is that he was definitely not their clear best player last season (as so many Laker fans desperately want him to be, as it will rank him higher in the All-Time Great list if he is), and I still argue that Pau was more important to them. This season? No contest. Pau has been better.

I really don't care to argue this any further though. Too much Lakers talk.

ko8e24
11-26-2010, 10:04 PM
I, as a true Lakers fan, will be happy if Pau gets the MVP over Kobe. They are both Lakers, they both represent the P&G Nation!

KeepMonta#8
11-26-2010, 10:11 PM
Cp3 for mvp!

Byronicle
11-26-2010, 10:22 PM
honestly i hope kobe doesnt win

im not hating, its just that i dont feel like he is as dominant as he was before, i mean gasol is more of a beast this year for sure

but i rather see either cp3 or dhoward win the MVP, these guys change the game no matter what whenever they are on the floor

kArSoN RyDaH
11-26-2010, 11:27 PM
Kobe will finish ahead of Pau in the MVP votings. Simple and Plain. Kobe means more to the Lakers than Pau. Flat out.