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View Full Version : With the Heat current "Coach" Problems, Does this make Phil Jackson a better Coach?



News24/7
11-23-2010, 12:50 AM
What i mean is, over the past decade with numerous debates about Phil Jackson not being among the greatest coaches just because he had talent like MJ, or Kobe, or Shaq, or Pippen, etc. Their would be responses such as "I could win 3 titles with Kobe and Shaq too...". Now with that big 3 talent in Miami, basically everyone said the same thing that the coaching will be a walk in a park for Eric Spo and just let Lebron and Wade do their thing.

Even though it has only been 14 games so far, their 8-6 with their recent loss by 16 against the pacers in their own home court. Wade is showing his ego by playing selfish ball as of late, Bosh is playing more like a SF-PF type of player, and Lebron is doing well on the court, but not with the media as of late and it seems it's getting to him.

Is it possible that Phil Jackson really is that great of a coach and just knows how to handle all the egos and talent that goes around with his roster? That maybe he did have some part into making players like MJ and Kobe into what they are today?

Storch
11-23-2010, 12:52 AM
the triangle offense would be so good with bron, bosh, and wade. theres a coach in minny that can make it work, cheaper too. kurt rambis.

J$mo0th_3o5
11-23-2010, 12:55 AM
Come on Pat!

checkit
11-23-2010, 12:57 AM
Time for Pat

kblo247
11-23-2010, 01:03 AM
Phil would be ideal for squashing those egos and checking guys in the media so they wouldn't say stupid ****.

Raph12
11-23-2010, 01:11 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

shep33
11-23-2010, 01:15 AM
the triangle offense would be so good with bron, bosh, and wade. theres a coach in minny that can make it work, cheaper too. kurt rambis.

I actually disagree with the triangle being good for these guys, if anything it takes away the strengths of all those players, outside of bosh maybe.

Lebon and wade aren't good back to the basket players like Kobe or Michael were. On top of that the triangle doesn't allow players to constantly dribble around... people think Kobe does this and they're absolutely off. Kobe gets a lot of his points posting up, and then the defense has to double so he makes an easy pass. Neither Wade or Bosh are great jumpshooters either, unlike MJ or Kobe.

Miami should be playing at a faster pace, the triangle isn't necessarily a slow offense but by no means would it suit the Heat at this point. Gotta speed up the game... cause they're not rebounding, and they're not protecting the paint. Speed it up, and try and outscore teams by playing at a fast pace.

shep33
11-23-2010, 01:20 AM
Phil would be ideal for squashing those egos and checking guys in the media so they wouldn't say stupid ****.

Yeah I agree... Phil would cuss out Shaq and Kobe all the time. Get in their faces... what other coach would do that? Especially with Shaq when he was an MVP player.. haha i'd be scared out of my mind, but I've seen Phil, i think vs the Kings in the conference finals, absolutely lay into Shaq. Called a timeout specifically to yell at him, nothing more.

RCarlson85
11-23-2010, 01:28 AM
I agree. I think there is something to having a Hall of Fame coach to control the egos. I think players like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Shaq need to have someone with the track record of a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. A coach like that commands respect and gets it because of their resume.

shep33
11-23-2010, 01:36 AM
I agree. I think there is something to having a Hall of Fame coach to control the egos. I think players like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Shaq need to have someone with the track record of a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. A coach like that commands respect and gets it because of their resume.

As a Heat fan do you think Riles will eventually take Spo's position? Are there any rumors/rumblings? It seems like Riles doesn't want to coach, and he likes Spolestra though.

Storch
11-23-2010, 02:32 AM
I actually disagree with the triangle being good for these guys, if anything it takes away the strengths of all those players, outside of bosh maybe.

Lebon and wade aren't good back to the basket players like Kobe or Michael were. On top of that the triangle doesn't allow players to constantly dribble around... people think Kobe does this and they're absolutely off. Kobe gets a lot of his points posting up, and then the defense has to double so he makes an easy pass. Neither Wade or Bosh are great jumpshooters either, unlike MJ or Kobe.

Miami should be playing at a faster pace, the triangle isn't necessarily a slow offense but by no means would it suit the Heat at this point. Gotta speed up the game... cause they're not rebounding, and they're not protecting the paint. Speed it up, and try and outscore teams by playing at a fast pace.

I hear what you're saying and you make good points. I don't think the triangle is as off as you think though. The spacing in the triangle promotes the isolations that superstars use to operate. It's great when you have a lethal 1on1 player on the wing (in this case the heat have two), they can either get the midrange jumpshot (which wade, lebron, AND bosh do quite well) or the slash to rotate the other players in the triangle to get in position.

The triangle offense is very complex ... and ill be the first to admit that im not expert :shrug: But I dont think that it would cause the heat to fair less in the offense. I think that a set offense like the triangle would pay dividends to wade bron and bosh since they're so used to having iso's all the time. just imo :D

SteveNash
11-23-2010, 02:35 AM
Phil started off poorly with the Bulls, does that make him a bad coach?

D Roses Bulls
11-23-2010, 02:36 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

x2

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 02:37 AM
I hear what you're saying and you make good points. I don't think the triangle is as off as you think though. The spacing in the triangle promotes the isolations that superstars use to operate. It's great when you have a lethal 1on1 player on the wing (in this case the heat have two), they can either get the midrange jumpshot (which wade, lebron, AND bosh do quite well) or the slash to rotate the other players in the triangle to get in position.

The triangle offense is very complex ... and ill be the first to admit that im not expert :shrug: But I dont think that it would cause the heat to fair less in the offense. I think that a set offense like the triangle would pay dividends to wade bron and bosh since they're so used to having iso's all the time. just imo :D

The problem is that triangle and isolation plays are extreme opposites of each other. The triple post offense works best with ball movement, cutting, movement without the ball. With LeBron and Wade [ Kobe even ] used to isolation sets where they have control of the ball, I'm just not so sure if they and the triangle would be best suited for each other.

And shep33 makes a good point about the post game. That's not in either LeBron's or DWade's arsenal. So they will have to play the role of the cutters or spot up shooters, roles I don't think they will flourish in.

Triangle = big guy [ someone with a great post game ] with shooters and cutters/finishers.

D Roses Bulls
11-23-2010, 02:38 AM
Phil started off poorly with the Bulls, does that make him a bad coach?

huh? he lost in like the second round to the pistons who won the whole things that year and won the championship the next year. dont know how that counts as a bad coach :confused:

Sadds The Gr8
11-23-2010, 02:40 AM
Does it make Doc Rivers a better coach? Does it make Popovich a better coach?

beasted86
11-23-2010, 02:40 AM
The problem is that triangle and isolation plays are extreme opposites of each other. The triple post offense works best with ball movement, cutting, movement without the ball. With LeBron and Wade [ Kobe even ] used to isolation sets where they have control of the ball, I'm just not so sure if they and the triangle would be best suited for each other.

And shep33 makes a good point about the post game. That's not in either LeBron's or DWade's arsenal. So they will have to play the role of the cutters or spot up shooters, roles I don't think they will flourish in.

Triangle = big guy with shooters and cutters/finishers.

So what exactly were the Bulls running all those years with no post up big man?

People are discussing the triangle and whether it would work, yet don't know how it works. Welcome to PSD.

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 02:43 AM
So what exactly were the Bulls running all those years with no post up big man?

People are discussing the triangle and whether it would work, yet don't know how it works. Welcome to PSD.

um, Jordan had one of the best, if not the best, post game, for a guard. He would catch the ball on the block and work his defender. Actually that's one of the differences between him and Kobe. Kobe catches the ball at the 3 point line so he has to work harder for a better shot.

D Roses Bulls
11-23-2010, 02:44 AM
So what exactly were the Bulls running all those years with no post up big man?

People are discussing the triangle and whether it would work, yet don't know how it works. Welcome to PSD.


actually he is right. you dont need a real good big man to run the triangle. bill carwright could pop and shoot, post up and do his little baby hook, so could luc longley. thats why those guys were picked at the time to play for chicago. plus they had all star power forwards in rodman and horace grant. also jordan had the best post up game for a guard probably ever. even though he didnt use it too much until around 96-97

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 02:46 AM
OK I should've probably been more clear. Phil Jackson said that he prefers a big man over anything else [ Shaq, Gasol ], but players with excellent post games [ Jordan, Kobe ] could work as well.

D Roses Bulls
11-23-2010, 02:49 AM
OK I should've probably been more clear. Phil Jackson said that he prefers a big man over anything else [ Shaq, Gasol ], but players with excellent post games [ Jordan, Kobe ] could work as well.

well you notice on every one of his bulls team, he had a good rebounding PF and a center with a pop shot and or hook shot? thats what pat riley didnt think of before he put this team together. no toughness on the inside at all. and before someone says that miami doesnt run the triangle and before they do, let me say I KNOW.

beasted86
11-23-2010, 02:49 AM
um, Jordan had one of the best, if not the best, post game, for a guard. He would catch the ball on the block and work his defender. Actually that's one of the differences between him and Kobe. Kobe catches the ball at the 3 point line so he has to work harder for a better shot.

Did you watch Jordan in his "Air Jordan" years? Because he didn't use the post nearly as often.

My point is the triangle isn't reliant on a post passer. It's reliant on floor spacing and timed cuts to unbalance the defense. And the pointless Kobe vs. Jordan plug was unnecessary.

D Roses Bulls
11-23-2010, 02:53 AM
Did you watch Jordan in his "Air Jordan" years? Because he didn't use the post nearly as often.

My point is the triangle isn't reliant on a post passer. It's reliant on floor spacing and timed cuts to unbalance the defense. And the pointless Kobe vs. Jordan plug was unnecessary.

yea your right on jordan. in his early days he didnt need a post move, but as he got older he did.

on the triangle though you both are right in away. the triangle wont work unless you have a big man who can pass the ball though, he is right on that, but you are right though it does depend on floor spacing and timed cuts and such, its a combination. cartwright, longley, shaq, gasol all can pass the ball nicely for big men

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 02:55 AM
Did you watch Jordan in his "Air Jordan" years? Because he didn't use the post nearly as often.

My point is the triangle isn't reliant on a post passer. It's reliant on floor spacing and timed cuts to unbalance the defense.

As opposed to a system based on isolation plays and pick and rolls.

Sadds The Gr8
11-23-2010, 02:55 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

yup....peaceful and quiet. but once that 5 game winning streak comes, be prepared for the wave.

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 02:56 AM
And I did say that the triangle needs good cutting and floor spacing on the previous page.


And the pointless Kobe vs. Jordan plug was unnecessary.

Actually it wasn't unnecessary because it shows how Jordan was more efficient overall than Bryant. Jordan picked his spots really well, way better than Kobe does it today. Kobe has to make tougher shots because he catches the ball farther away, combined with a loss in athleticism. Jordan's efficiency is [ In ]directly caused by the triangle's affinity for a good post player.

Storch
11-23-2010, 03:16 AM
I agree. I think there is something to having a Hall of Fame coach to control the egos. I think players like Lebron/Wade/Kobe/Shaq need to have someone with the track record of a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. A coach like that commands respect and gets it because of their resume.

A respectable coach is what egos need, for sure.


The problem is that triangle and isolation plays are extreme opposites of each other. The triple post offense works best with ball movement, cutting, movement without the ball. With LeBron and Wade [ Kobe even ] used to isolation sets where they have control of the ball, I'm just not so sure if they and the triangle would be best suited for each other.

And shep33 makes a good point about the post game. That's not in either LeBron's or DWade's arsenal. So they will have to play the role of the cutters or spot up shooters, roles I don't think they will flourish in.

Triangle = big guy [ someone with a great post game ] with shooters and cutters/finishers.

Bosh is a pretty good passer in the post, that's all you really need for the big man in the triangle offense. You don't think that Wade and lebron can be great cutters and finishers? :speechless: They are probably the two best finishers and slashers in the game today (arguably). And you don't think that they can be good shooters? They have the mid-range game on lock bro, for sure.

The triangle's main requirement is a superstar that imo. Ask VladRad, he was quoted in saying that the triangle offense promoted Kobe to score and left him in the dark on offense most of the time. The triangle was still ran when we merely had odom as the big as well. Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman were hardly low post threats, but they knew the offense and they were effective in passing out.

I know what you're saying about the post game, and it is quite vital. But I'm sure that Bosh and Lebron can still post up with their backs to the basket regardless of their postgame because they can just pass it out or create something else in that position. :shrug:


So what exactly were the Bulls running all those years with no post up big man?

People are discussing the triangle and whether it would work, yet don't know how it works. Welcome to PSD.

Good point. I agree with the first sentence.

DasBoot
11-23-2010, 03:17 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

There aren't any Heat fans. Just bandwagoners. The last time someone was born in Florida was like 1930. Lebron Bosh and Wade against the Magic and they still don't sell out. 2003 against the Yankees in the World Series and a third of the upper deck empty. FL fans... worst in the country.

The guy who started this thread is also obviously playing too much 2k11. Why not make a trade for Chris Paul also? OH thats right. They have absolutely no one and nothing to trade. All money is tied up in those 3, over the hill 30 year olds and second round picks. Trading Beasley= stupid.

Storch
11-23-2010, 03:18 AM
And I did say that the triangle needs good cutting and floor spacing on the previous page.



Actually it wasn't unnecessary because it shows how Jordan was more efficient overall than Bryant. Jordan picked his spots really well, way better than Kobe does it today. Kobe has to make tougher shots because he catches the ball farther away, combined with a loss in athleticism. Jordan's efficiency is [ In ]directly caused by the triangle's affinity for a good post player.

Jordan's post moves were actually more like backing down turn around fade aways. He wasn't in the paint often with his back to the basket.

Storch
11-23-2010, 03:19 AM
There aren't any Heat fans. The last time someone was born in Florida was like 1930. Lebron Bosh and Wade against the Magic and they still don't sell out. FL fans... worst in the country.

Let's not get off-topic now. That's not even a part of the discussion in this thread.

DasBoot
11-23-2010, 03:24 AM
Let's not get off-topic now. That's not even a part of the discussion in this thread.

edited and expanded... Point is isn't even worth talking about.

shep33
11-23-2010, 03:47 AM
I hear what you're saying and you make good points. I don't think the triangle is as off as you think though. The spacing in the triangle promotes the isolations that superstars use to operate. It's great when you have a lethal 1on1 player on the wing (in this case the heat have two), they can either get the midrange jumpshot (which wade, lebron, AND bosh do quite well) or the slash to rotate the other players in the triangle to get in position.

The triangle offense is very complex ... and ill be the first to admit that im not expert :shrug: But I dont think that it would cause the heat to fair less in the offense. I think that a set offense like the triangle would pay dividends to wade bron and bosh since they're so used to having iso's all the time. just imo :D

Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible, but it'll be tough for Lebron and Wade. The spacing aspect of it is true, but it isn't really built for dribbling isolations at the top of the key like LBJ and Wade are use to. I think Wade plays better off ball then Lebron though, so he'd be a better fit, but the same problem then arises, not having the ball in Lebron's hands makes him less significant.

I dunno... it's something we really have never seen before in what the Heat are doing. IMO, i think the triangle still doesn't solve the problem involving who has the ball, how many shots each player will get, etc. Their offense is best when one of Lebron/Wade are out their with Bosh. I think Lebron and Bosh work pretty well together, but when you add another scoring guard like Wade who is gonna put up his shots, it then makes one of them less significant again... mostly Bosh, even though he's been playing well lately.

I dunno, best option IMO, just play a run and gun style. Speed up the tempo, and try to outscore teams with a high-paced offense.

SMH!
11-23-2010, 03:55 AM
the heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

+ 1

News24/7
11-23-2010, 03:57 AM
The guy who started this thread is also obviously playing too much 2k11. Why not make a trade for Chris Paul also? OH thats right. They have absolutely no one and nothing to trade. All money is tied up in those 3, over the hill 30 year olds and second round picks. Trading Beasley= stupid.

ummmm....are you even in the right thread?

shep33
11-23-2010, 03:58 AM
Did you watch Jordan in his "Air Jordan" years? Because he didn't use the post nearly as often.

My point is the triangle isn't reliant on a post passer. It's reliant on floor spacing and timed cuts to unbalance the defense. And the pointless Kobe vs. Jordan plug was unnecessary.

Yeah that's cause he was a freak of nature... but he didn't win until he developed some sort of back to the basket game, even back from 91-93, and he was still a better shooter than Lebron or Wade IMO.

The Kobe and Michael comparison isn't useless. I'm not comparing them individually, but as how their ability works so great within the same system. They won a combined 11 rings under that system, so it has to be paying dividends with the role each of them play in it.

I still don't think the triangle works best for Miami... Lebron needs to dribble the ball around a lot to get into his game. There's a reason why most teams don't run the triangle... it's actually very difficult to fully get. You can't just switch offenses in the middle of the year anyways. The triangle takes time to learn... Laker players like Ron Artest, Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, etc. are still learning it and probably won't get a good grasp of it until much later in the season.


The triangle isn't just any offense... if its this magical type of system that wins championships, then every team would run it. But it depends on personnel, and more than anything time and acceptance of roles.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:03 AM
Yeah I agree... Phil would cuss out Shaq and Kobe all the time. Get in their faces... what other coach would do that? Especially with Shaq when he was an MVP player.. haha i'd be scared out of my mind, but I've seen Phil, i think vs the Kings in the conference finals, absolutely lay into Shaq. Called a timeout specifically to yell at him, nothing more.

Phil got on those two early and often, especially the year after they won the first ring. When he didn't do it, Tex Winters did.

The Miami big 3 needs someone who isn't going to be there friend, but is more than willing to crack the whip on them in front of the world from top to bottom.

shep33
11-23-2010, 04:05 AM
More than anything Bosh would probably gain from the triangle as opposed to Lebron and Wade IMO. They still often need to handle the ball to be effective... put it this way, when have we seen lebron work the post with his back to the basket? If you run isolations for lebron and Wade, it's no different than what they're doing now. Also if its the case where they want a Jordan-Pippen type combo... then one of them has to take the lead, and the other has to be the 2nd guy.. none of this taking turns stuff, it doesn't work. Either make Lebron or Wade "the guy", cause IMO teams need hierarchy.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:05 AM
shep, I get and agree with what you are saying about the offense.

I do think they need to actually look at more of a Princeton offense personally with their personnel as opposed to constant pick and rolls and isos.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:07 AM
More than anything Bosh would probably gain from the triangle as opposed to Lebron and Wade IMO. They still often need to handle the ball to be effective... put it this way, when have we seen lebron work the post with his back to the basket? If you run isolations for lebron and Wade, it's no different than what they're doing now. Also if its the case where they want a Jordan-Pippen type combo... then one of them has to take the lead, and the other has to be the 2nd guy.. none of this taking turns stuff, it doesn't work. Either make Lebron or Wade "the guy", cause IMO teams need hierarchy.

To add to this, Boston admittedly struggled early on last season because the vets didn't like Rondo trying to eat first at times. LA struggled last year when Pau returned to the lineup, up until Kobe made the comment that Pau will eat second every night as he and Drew were both fighting for the same spots and touches.

shep33
11-23-2010, 04:08 AM
Phil got on those two early and often, especially the year after they won the first ring. When he didn't do it, Tex Winters did.

The Miami big 3 needs someone who isn't going to be there friend, but is more than willing to crack the whip on them in front of the world from top to bottom.

Yeah i agree... problem is which coach can do that? Phil won't coach them, Lakers will be the last team he coaches. Riles? I don't even know if he wants to coach... Then it comes down to who else can do it? I think a guy like Sloan or Popovich could... but no way they're leaving.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:10 AM
Yeah i agree... problem is which coach can do that? Phil won't coach them, Lakers will be the last team he coaches. Riles? I don't even know if he wants to coach... Then it comes down to who else can do it? I think a guy like Sloan or Popovich could... but no way they're leaving.

It could be an assistant in all honesty. Hiring a guy like Zo to check those egos and confront those guys would make sense.

shep33
11-23-2010, 04:11 AM
To add to this, Boston admittedly struggled early on last season because the vets didn't like Rondo trying to eat first at times. LA struggled last year when Pau returned to the lineup, up until Kobe made the comment that Pau will eat second every night as he and Drew were both fighting for the same spots and touches.

Good points :clap:... I honestly can't remember a team that didn't have some sort of hierarchy that won a ring. People might say Detroit... but they had Billups as their leader. Miami IMO just has to get their internal structure sorted out first and foremost, then things will get easier.

shep33
11-23-2010, 04:13 AM
It could be an assistant in all honesty. Hiring a guy like Zo to check those egos and confront those guys would make sense.

You know who might be perfect for that team. Jeff Van Gundy... i know it sounds awkward, but the guy is pretty strict as a coach even if he doesn't seem like it on ABC. He's also a Riley pupil, so that might be a benefit.

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:17 AM
So what exactly were the Bulls running all those years with no post up big man?

People are discussing the triangle and whether it would work, yet don't know how it works. Welcome to PSD.

hmm they had players that were better than joel anthony thats for sure

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:19 AM
one thing people fail to mention is that jordan and the bulls became champions once jordan found how to play away from the ball and learned to trust his teammates. Wade cant play without the ball, james cant play without the ball and bosh needs the ball to be effective.

static_inferno
11-23-2010, 04:19 AM
Phil is a great coach, no doubt about that. The problem with the Heat is Spoelstra is too young and inexperienced to handle those egos. Look at Boston, Doc had the experience and handled them well.

shep33
11-23-2010, 04:20 AM
hmm they had players that were better than joel anthony thats for sure

Very true. Chicago had arguably the greatest role players to compliment MJ and Scottie throughout those 6 championships.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:20 AM
Good points :clap:... I honestly can't remember a team that didn't have some sort of hierarchy that won a ring. People might say Detroit... but they had Billups as their leader. Miami IMO just has to get their internal structure sorted out first and foremost, then things will get easier.

I really can't think of any 1st and 2nd options that averaged close to 30 each in modern times besides Kobe and Shaq. They were surrounded by role players though in the starting lineup and on the bench. Even then, everyone knew that Fisher ate 3rd on those teams and would look for his before Fox, Horry, George, and Shaw.

Most big 3 situations see one guy going 25-30, one at 17-20, and one at 15-17. That is just how things are and one of them are going to have to settle on being that second option. I personally think it has to be LeBron, not Wade or Bosh. His game is far less rounded that Wade's when it comes to attacking and being able to score in the middle of the floor and at the free throw line. To me he has to be the guy who facilitates the offense and actually mans up and defends the best player one on one. Bosh has to be that third banana who hits the glass hard every night, and any night he doesn't grab 10+ should pay a fine unless in a blowout.

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:23 AM
Phil is a great coach, no doubt about that. The problem with the Heat is Spoelstra is too young and inexperienced to handle those egos. Look at Boston, Doc had the experience and handled them well.

Its not that spol could handle them, its more can they play without the ball. Teams want them to go into isolation plays. The big three in miami havent learned the concept of team play. The heat would of been better off just getting wade and bosh IMO.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:23 AM
You know who might be perfect for that team. Jeff Van Gundy... i know it sounds awkward, but the guy is pretty strict as a coach even if he doesn't seem like it on ABC. He's also a Riley pupil, so that might be a benefit.

That is a very good point. I'd miss him calling the games though as I like his rule change ideas "laugh2:

If Hubie Brown was younger, I would have said him in a heartbeat because he is very demanding about doing things the right way. Hell he tamed White Chocolate,

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:25 AM
Its not that spol could handle them, its more can they play without the ball. Teams want them to go into isolation plays. The big three in miami havent learned the concept of team play. The heat would of been better off just getting wade and bosh IMO.

Melo and Amare would have been better fits than Lebron and Bosh imo to play with Wade.

Amare is purely a finisher and he makes no bones about knowing that unlike Bosh who likes to survey the floor and then attack. Melo also is far more skilled with his foot work, ability to play off the ball, post up game, mid range shot, long range shot, and he is even a better one on one defender than Lebron.

Wade could have the ball in his hands and keep his natural rhythm playing with them because their skill sets compliments his far more.

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:26 AM
everyone should remember what Lebron and Wade daddy once said (Michael Jordan)

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships. "

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:29 AM
Melo and Amare would have been better fits than Lebron and Bosh imo to play with Wade.

Amare is purely a finisher and he makes no bones about knowing that unlike Bosh who likes to survey the floor and then attack. Melo also is far more skilled with his foot work, ability to play off the ball, post up game, mid range shot, long range shot, and he is even a better one on one defender than Lebron.

Wade could have the ball in his hands and keep[ his natural rhythm playing with them because their skill sets compliments his far more.

ahh i dont know about melo. Melo takes so many forced shots that I dont even want him around the bulls. Amare would of been better fit than bosh with wade and lebron, but thats still a big if. Its still a 5 vs 5 game and thats what clearly distinguishes the lakers from the heat. That they can put any 5 out there and they will eventually come through.

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:33 AM
Melo likes to shoot and does shoot especially with Billups struggling, but can you disagree with the fact that he is the better post player, one on one defender, and more accustomed to playing off the ball than LeBron?

Storch
11-23-2010, 04:36 AM
If the Heat really wants a coach that can run an offense and keep a physical defense running, Jerry Sloan is the best coach for them. When was the last time you saw the Jazz have an ego (in terms of playing individual instead of team basketball?), i'd say almost never. Their star players are usually class acts: Stockton-Malone, Williams-Boozer. They just went out there and ran the offense.

But in terms of available coaches, Pat Riley is the man for the job in the heat. His resume just speaks for itself. JVG preaches defense, it could work too but he's not a great choice.

On a side note: all great teams have an outside presence and and inside presence. I guess the bigger question in all this is not the coach, but instead is Bosh that inside presence that they need to become elite? It may be too early to tell, but so far he hasn't answered the call.

Storch
11-23-2010, 04:39 AM
Melo likes to shoot and does shoot especially with Billups struggling, but can you disagree with the fact that he is the better post player, one on one defender, and more accustomed to playing off the ball than LeBron?

Postgame: Melo > Lebron
hands down.

Lebron is a better perimeter defender

Melo is the better post defender

melo is more accustomed to playing off ball

kblo247
11-23-2010, 04:56 AM
Postgame: Melo > Lebron
hands down.

Lebron is a better perimeter defender

Melo is the better post defender

melo is more accustomed to playing off ball

I'd say Melo is the better perimeter defender when he wants to be (think LA series and him defending Kobe) whereas Lebron goes for chase down blocks and gambles for steals. Melo guards angles, contests shots, and moves his feet.

That is just me though as I haven't seen Lebron ever take on a challenge like Melo did in that last Lakers series.

D1JM
11-23-2010, 04:57 AM
Melo likes to shoot and does shoot especially with Billups struggling, but can you disagree with the fact that he is the better post player, one on one defender, and more accustomed to playing off the ball than LeBron?

No I cant argue that because melo is better offensively than lebron. Melo can attack you in many ways offensively, but I disagree he is a better defender.

D1JM
11-23-2010, 05:00 AM
I'd say Melo is the better perimeter defender when he wants to be (think LA series and him defending Kobe) whereas Lebron goes for chase down blocks and gambles for steals. Melo guards angles, contests shots, and moves his feet.

That is just me though as I haven't seen Lebron ever take on a challenge like Melo did in that last Lakers series.

Thats the problem, melo is a good defender when he decides to play defense (national tv). He was two different player when he faced the bulls and when he face the pacers. I mean he even dove for a ball against the bulls! But gave up against the pacers on both ends

Shark
11-23-2010, 05:38 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

Haha True.

And to the question, yes. To the other suggestions "time to fire coach" typical excuse for Heat fans. I hope Riley does take over and I hope they suck even more.

Law25
11-23-2010, 07:36 AM
There aren't any Heat fans. Just bandwagoners. The last time someone was born in Florida was like 1930. Lebron Bosh and Wade against the Magic and they still don't sell out. 2003 against the Yankees in the World Series and a third of the upper deck empty. FL fans... worst in the country.

The guy who started this thread is also obviously playing too much 2k11. Why not make a trade for Chris Paul also? OH thats right. They have absolutely no one and nothing to trade. All money is tied up in those 3, over the hill 30 year olds and second round picks. Trading Beasley= stupid.

Have you been to South beach? So many hot women in Miami **** an Heat game unless their playing against ellite squads. Its much more fun trying to break in other hot tourist or the sexy *** local talent.

sventhedog
11-23-2010, 08:18 AM
all that matters is the result. if you win titles, that's it. every other thing they say about having great players or a great coach are just made up excuses.

the real reason i don't have a championship ring is that my dog died when i was about to go to college. i didn't get drafted because of my sadness. i refused a contract offer because basketball reminds me of my dog. i hope you guys believe me.

Jaji
11-23-2010, 09:51 AM
I don't think anyone believes Phil is a bad coach, but its hard to call him the GOAT because of what he's had to work with. But Phil Jackson is certainly a great coach. If anything, all this proves is that Spo is in over his head. BTW the Heat have a great core but they have some deficiencies as well. But I honestly don't see Miami winning anything until they get a new coach. There is no excuse for their offense to be this bad.

Jaji
11-23-2010, 09:54 AM
There aren't any Heat fans. Just bandwagoners. The last time someone was born in Florida was like 1930. Lebron Bosh and Wade against the Magic and they still don't sell out. 2003 against the Yankees in the World Series and a third of the upper deck empty. FL fans... worst in the country.

The guy who started this thread is also obviously playing too much 2k11. Why not make a trade for Chris Paul also? OH thats right. They have absolutely no one and nothing to trade. All money is tied up in those 3, over the hill 30 year olds and second round picks. Trading Beasley= stupid.

Okay... this guy has no effing clue. :crazy:

69centers
11-23-2010, 10:04 AM
LOL at someone trying to connect the Heat's woes with Phil Jackson! A weak coach who can't bring a team together early on in the season has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jackson.

michael811
11-23-2010, 10:10 AM
I don't think anyone believes Phil is a bad coach, but its hard to call him the GOAT because of what he's had to work with. But Phil Jackson is certainly a great coach. If anything, all this proves is that Spo is in over his head. BTW the Heat have a great core but they have some deficiencies as well. But I honestly don't see Miami winning anything until they get a new coach. There is no excuse for their offense to be this bad.

For all the talk of all the talent Phil Jackson had Michael Jordan Kobe Bryant Scottie Pippen and Shaquille Oneal have exactly one title between them without Phil Jackson as their coach he is the greatest coach ever as far as I am concerned and it isn't even close

lakers4sho
11-23-2010, 10:16 AM
A respectable coach is what egos need, for sure.



Bosh is a pretty good passer in the post, that's all you really need for the big man in the triangle offense. You don't think that Wade and lebron can be great cutters and finishers? :speechless: They are probably the two best finishers and slashers in the game today (arguably). And you don't think that they can be good shooters? They have the mid-range game on lock bro, for sure.

I'm not saying they can't be, but all I'm saying is that they aren't used to those roles. And being cutter/floor spacer is probably at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to being an iso type of guy. One works with the ball, the other works without the ball.

Here are some stats for you (from 82games.com)

JUMPSHOTS:

LeBron

- attempted 71% of shots
- eFG%: 0.415

Dwyane

- attempted 54% of shots
- eFG%: 0.413




The triangle's main requirement is a superstar that imo. Ask VladRad, he was quoted in saying that the triangle offense promoted Kobe to score and left him in the dark on offense most of the time. The triangle was still ran when we merely had odom as the big as well. Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman were hardly low post threats, but they knew the offense and they were effective in passing out.

Seriously, if you base your opinion about the triangle on a statement by Vladimir freakin' Radmanovic...

:D :D :D

Any offense in a championship team needs a superstar :cool:



I know what you're saying about the post game, and it is quite vital. But I'm sure that Bosh and Lebron can still post up with their backs to the basket regardless of their postgame because they can just pass it out or create something else in that position. :shrug:

Actually for a guy his size, LeBron does not have the adequate footwork to be a good post player. That is one of the knocks in his game. Most of his game is based on isolation off the top of the key where he just barges into the defense.

ttam68
11-23-2010, 10:25 AM
I think its a good point/valid thread. But not really worth debating all the above

sep11ie
11-23-2010, 11:50 AM
The Heat fans are so quiet these days, it's kinda nice...

I was just thinking that.