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View Full Version : Who are the truly "great" players today? (defined inside)



DoJoTheSlasher
11-18-2010, 09:17 PM
In my eyes, a "great" player is one who delivers all the time when needed. Someone who doesn't need the big dunk, the crowd all up to deliver, he just does it. Carmelo, Howard, Paul, Williams, Durant are all GREAT players but they just aren't on that level (yet).


Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game and most clutch. He has shown us for about 10 years now.

Dirk Nowitzki will hit the the game winning shot if you give it to him. 2nd best clutch today. He has hit so many tough shots to either win or tie the game in the final seconds and has about 200 more clutch shots in the final minutes to keep Dallas in the game.

Tim Duncan will get that bucket and will make that defensive play when you need him too. Today he might put up 10 and 10 but he will get it done. He will always be very clutch no matter how old he is.

LeBron James will most of the time drive the lane and deliver and also make the good defensive play. For some reason, he can't really shoot in a game but when it matters most he starts to develop a J.

Steve Nash is an elite passer but when the game is on the line, he hits the shot. He always makes that little slash and scoop or hits an impossible 3 near the end.

Paul Pierce makes so many clutch baskets. Hate the guy but he gets it done when it matters. He is probably the one who goes by the most unnoticed in the clutch but he always comes through.

tredigs
11-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Explain to me how, for example, how a guy like Chris Paul doesn't fit the criteria as a GREAT player?

Basically, this thread boils down to peoples subjective opinions on who they do/don't think is great. A little analysis to back up your points would've been nice.

el_primo_nano
11-18-2010, 09:33 PM
Kobe, Kobe, Kobe. Tim Duncan

KnicksorBust
11-18-2010, 09:34 PM
"In my eyes, a "great" player is one who delivers all the time when needed."

"LeBron James will most of the time drive the lane and deliver and also make the good defensive play."

Conflicting statements. Digs, I think this qualifications basically seem to be that the players have a "clutch" moniker and are proven vets. This is why he leaves of all the younger, and in many cases better, players.

DoJoTheSlasher
11-18-2010, 09:35 PM
Explain to me how, for example, how a guy like Chris Paul doesn't fit the criteria as a GREAT player?

Basically, this thread boils down to peoples subjective opinions on who they do/don't think is great. A little analysis to back up your points would've been nice.

Paul just doesn't strike me as a guy when having the ball for a gamewinner you say to yourself, I just know he is going to make it.

Khalifa21
11-18-2010, 09:40 PM
Paul just doesn't strike me as a guy when having the ball for a gamewinner you say to yourself, I just know he is going to make it.

So has this suddenly turned into a "clutch" player thread?

DoJoTheSlasher
11-18-2010, 09:50 PM
So has this suddenly turned into a "clutch" player thread?

Well I mean all the great players will be remembered for doing it big when it mattered most.

devv83
11-18-2010, 10:05 PM
How can you justify putting Dirk up there but not Durant, Melo, Cp3, Dwill, and wade

That's nonsense Durant just had a great season, Melo is just as clutch as Dirk, Dwill and Cp3 are the two best point guards in the league and Dwade led his team to a chip

Cmon son

DoJoTheSlasher
11-18-2010, 10:14 PM
How can you justify putting Dirk up there but not Durant, Melo, Cp3, Dwill, and wade

That's nonsense Durant just had a great season, Melo is just as clutch as Dirk, Dwill and Cp3 are the two best point guards in the league and Dwade led his team to a chip

Cmon son

Melo is in no way more clutch than Dirk......

You can add Wade up there but Durant, Paul, and Williams don't strike me as guys who you just know are gonna make the big shot to win the game all the time.

jkcronyn
11-18-2010, 10:19 PM
if anyone says melo im going to blow my brains out, he can score at will but doesnt have leadership nor will he ever win a championship as the star

tredigs
11-18-2010, 10:22 PM
Melo is in no way more clutch than Dirk......

You can add Wade up there but Durant, Paul, and Williams don't strike me as guys who you just know are gonna make the big shot to win the game all the time.

I know D. Fish and Robert Horry are "going to make the big shot with the game on the line". Does that make them great players? Or do you also have to be an all-star along with having those moments in you? Or, do you have to finish top 5 in MVP voting for multiple seasons and also have that in you? (There's no right or wrong here, obviously).

Also, the fact that Wade isn't on the original list is ridiculous. That's one of the greatest/most clutch SG's to ever play this game. Beyond that, Cp3 is absolutely great, and there are very few guys I'd rather have the ball than him with everything on the line. Go check 82games.com sortable clutch stats over the past couple seasons, then check out some playoff numbers from basketball-reference on some of these guys. I think you're seeing the league through slightly clouded lenses, and that might help put things into perspective.

edit: D. Williams is also a great player, and a strong argument can be made for Rondo.

Bottom line, there's no right or wrong answers here based on the subjectivity of your opening post. And for that reason, this thread sucks.

jkcronyn
11-18-2010, 10:26 PM
this thread is stupid as hell mostly because there's too many opposing views on "great" so shut it down cause its just gonna end in arguing instead of conversation

DQL
11-18-2010, 10:31 PM
Wade single handedly beat the Mavs in the Finals yet he didn't get mentioned? :pity:

tp13baby
11-18-2010, 10:35 PM
Melo is in no way more clutch than Dirk......

You can add Wade up there but Durant, Paul, and Williams don't strike me as guys who you just know are gonna make the big shot to win the game all the time.

we have been over this before. Melo has one of the better shooting percentages with the game on the line. Your reasoning makes no sense.

ManRam
11-18-2010, 10:36 PM
Bummer...Tre stole my Robert Horry argument.

I have nothing else to contribute, since clearly the last ten seconds of the game are all that matter...

dee279
11-18-2010, 11:16 PM
Yeah to me theres only a few Great players in the league and i normally wouldnt put Dirk even in that category but he has upped his defense and his offensive ability is off the charts.To me "Great" players can do it all. On the offensive side, and defensive side and not just in the clutch but at all times when needed. Kobe, D Wade, Lebron, Dirk, CP3, D Will, Durant, Melo and D Howard are to me the Great players in the NBA. They are the guys that to me, just can take over a game at any time. The players that if you put the ball in there hand, something good will happen if not great. And yes they are other really good players out there that can take over the game on one side of the court Alla Steve Nash but defensively he is a liability so to me does not fit in the Great player category but he is a great offensive player.

justinnum1
11-18-2010, 11:17 PM
:facepalm:

Crackadalic
11-18-2010, 11:27 PM
so basically its who has that clutch gene or better yet if there team is in trouble you as the player single handling takes over and pull a mj to win the game? there really isnt a lot kobe has to be one i agree dirk is up there too dwade is another lebron james even though people say he doesnt he really does dwight is a great player but he isnt the player you can depend on to take over a game if thats the argument Durant is almost there but not quite id give him another year

Avenged
11-18-2010, 11:43 PM
Anyone in the top 15 is "great" in my book.

Baller1
11-18-2010, 11:44 PM
Melo is in no way more clutch than Dirk......

You can add Wade up there but Durant, Paul, and Williams don't strike me as guys who you just know are gonna make the big shot to win the game all the time.

Melo might be the most clutch player in the league. :laugh2:

Baller1
11-18-2010, 11:49 PM
Oh, and Dirk looked great in the end of those two New Orleans games. Shall we take a look?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHun84DDn3U

Fast forward to the end, but I'm sure you already know exactly what I'm talking about.

This thread is a joke, it was a subliminal way for you to praise Dirk.

Avenged
11-18-2010, 11:56 PM
Since we're talking clutch.. 82games has a list, although it was last updated earlier on the year. Points sorted per 48 minutes of clutch time:
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Dirk
4. Melo
5. Nash

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

pd1dish
11-19-2010, 12:05 AM
So has this suddenly turned into a "clutch" player thread?

would michael jordan be considered the greatest player of all time if he didnt make all those game winners in his career. he had 25 legit game winning shots (shots in the last 10 seconds of a game) and a couple of them coming in the playoffs that maybe the bulls wouldnt have gone on and win if it werent for those shots. and what about kobe? kobe has 24 total with under 10 seconds left. 3 of them coming in the playoffs. these two players have shown that to be part of THE greatest of all time, you need to have the ability to make it when it matters most. if jordan hadnt hit those game winners and it kept the bulls from winning two championships, then for sure it hurts jordan's legacy.

PS

Wiz Khalifa sucks

NYMetros
11-19-2010, 12:08 AM
Kobe
Durant
LeBron
Wade
CP3
Dirk
Melo
D-will

pd1dish
11-19-2010, 12:09 AM
Since we're talking clutch.. 82games has a list, although it was last updated earlier on the year. Points sorted per 48 minutes of clutch time:
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Dirk
4. Melo
5. Nash

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

they are considering "clutch" to be 5 minutes left in the game when the game is within 5 points. i think the people in this thread are talking about "clutch" being a last second shot, or having the ball in a one possession game with less than 30 seconds left, and hitting that crucial shot. not making a shot with 4:35 left on the clock.

NYMetros
11-19-2010, 12:09 AM
This thread is a joke, it was a subliminal way for you to praise Dirk.

i don't think he was being subliminal, he was pretty clearly and openly praising dirk in the OP..VVV


Dirk Nowitzki will hit the the game winning shot if you give it to him. 2nd best clutch today. He has hit so many tough shots to either win or tie the game in the final seconds and has about 200 more clutch shots in the final minutes to keep Dallas in the game.

i don't disagree with what he is saying either. dirk gets it done in crunch time.

Avenged
11-19-2010, 12:12 AM
they are considering "clutch" to be 5 minutes left in the game when the game is within 5 points. i think the people in this thread are talking about "clutch" being a last second shot, or having the ball in a one possession game with less than 30 seconds left, and hitting that crucial shot. not making a shot with 4:35 left on the clock.

You see, I don't really get that. The title doesn't define great. The last second of a game doesn't make anyone great.

Tredigs already got that covered though, just thought I'd open a new perspective to all of you guys.

edit: besides, the top 5 in that website is pretty accurate in terms of last possessions as well.

numba1CHANGsta
11-19-2010, 12:17 AM
Great players are defined by the 3 C's: championships, consistency, and clutchness

Chacarron
11-19-2010, 12:32 AM
Great players are defined by the 3 C's: championships, consistency, and clutchness

That makes sense to me.

Raph12
11-19-2010, 01:21 AM
D12, CP3 and KD>>>>>Dirk, Nash and Pierce... Your definition of "great" is terribly flawed.

DoJoTheSlasher
11-19-2010, 01:29 AM
Oh, and Dirk looked great in the end of those two New Orleans games. Shall we take a look?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHun84DDn3U

Fast forward to the end, but I'm sure you already know exactly what I'm talking about.

This thread is a joke, it was a subliminal way for you to praise Dirk.

LMFAO. 1 game you find and that makes Dirk terrible.....

Dirk is an all time great and is a top notch clutch player today. Sorry he is that one white guy who isn't flashy like your boy Kevin Durant.

And if you even try to say Durant is up here..... He sure looked great in the 1st round didn't he?

DoJoTheSlasher
11-19-2010, 01:31 AM
D12, CP3 and KD>>>>>Dirk, Nash and Pierce... Your definition of "great" is terribly flawed.

What has Howard done? I really didn't see him carry his team ever in the playoffs, more like Hedo, Rashard and Nelson carrying the team. LOL at Paul, and what has Durant done? He sucked a fat one in the playoffs.


Dirk, Nash and Pierce are 3 sure fire 1st ballod HOF who are still top notch players today.

MELO 15
11-19-2010, 02:11 AM
With the game on the line there is only two players that can pretty much beat u any spot on the floor, Kobe 1a and Melo1b, this guy is a maverick fan, what do u expect, how can u say that dirk is more clutch than melo, did u forget the playoffs, when Melo broke the hearts of mark cuban and mr dirk by saying they fouled melo b4 the three and had the nerve to thow his hands up as if to say he didn't, and then mr. flash, this maverick fan has a short memory. For u to say that Melo isn't clutch means u must not watch 2 much basketball

JeffG20
11-19-2010, 02:25 AM
What has Howard done? I really didn't see him carry his team ever in the playoffs, more like Hedo, Rashard and Nelson carrying the team. LOL at Paul, and what has Durant done? He sucked a fat one in the playoffs.


Dirk, Nash and Pierce are 3 sure fire 1st ballod HOF who are still top notch players today.

Not sure why your "loling" at Paul. Didnt he rape the Mavs a few years ago in the playoffs?

DoJoTheSlasher
11-19-2010, 02:34 AM
With the game on the line there is only two players that can pretty much beat u any spot on the floor, Kobe 1a and Melo1b, this guy is a maverick fan, what do u expect, how can u say that dirk is more clutch than melo, did u forget the playoffs, when Melo broke the hearts of mark cuban and mr dirk by saying they fouled melo b4 the three and had the nerve to thow his hands up as if to say he didn't, and then mr. flash, this maverick fan has a short memory. For u to say that Melo isn't clutch means u must not watch 2 much basketball

Dirk had a better series than Melo and Melo had Billups, Smith and Nene going off while Dirk had Howard scoring 5 a game.

For you to say Dirk isn't clutch means YOU haven't watched basketball.

DoJoTheSlasher
11-19-2010, 02:35 AM
Not sure why your "loling" at Paul. Didnt he rape the Mavs a few years ago in the playoffs?

Because Dirk is better than Paul at pretty much everything except passing. Better shooter, 3 pt shooter, ft shooter, clutch, rebounder.... You make it seem like I said Eddy Najera was better than Paul.

magic0320
11-19-2010, 02:43 AM
lol Dirk isn't much of better player than most of big name all stars.

all he has is he played in the league longer than most of them and that's it.

you think he is great because you like him as dallas fan, but come on man.

I believe there are many great players in the league, but Kobe, Wade, Lebron, and maybe Durant (because he has done only one year so I want to see more) are their league of own.

oh and I just want to add why can't great player don't even have great post up game when he is 7 footer and PF

CityofChaos
11-19-2010, 02:52 AM
Because Dirk is better than Paul at pretty much everything except passing. Better shooter, 3 pt shooter, ft shooter, clutch, rebounder.... You make it seem like I said Eddy Najera was better than Paul.

They play different positions so you're comparing apples to oranges.

Dirk is a stat filler that you can't win a championship with. Why?

He is a *****ty defender.
He has very few low post moves.
He is a below average passer.
He doesn't block shots.
He plays more on the perimeter than on the inside where PF's are supposed to play.
He's one of the most unaggressive 7 footers in the league which makes him come across as being a *****
He's been surrounded by very good players throughout his years in dallas and still can't manage to win a title.

Baller1
11-19-2010, 03:06 AM
LMFAO. 1 game you find and that makes Dirk terrible.....

Dirk is an all time great and is a top notch clutch player today. Sorry he is that one white guy who isn't flashy like your boy Kevin Durant.

And if you even try to say Durant is up here..... He sure looked great in the 1st round didn't he?

1. He missed a critical free throw the game before that.
2. Durant isn't really a flashy player.
3. Didn't Dirk get ousted by the 8th seed a few years ago? Oh, and what about in the Finals against Miami? How many rings does Dirk have?

Quit making Dirk seem like a legend. He's the best European player up to this point, although Pau is going to take that soon.

Just be happy with your playoff berths, because that's as far as Dirk will take you.

ink
11-19-2010, 03:13 AM
Explain to me how, for example, how a guy like Chris Paul doesn't fit the criteria as a GREAT player?

Basically, this thread boils down to peoples subjective opinions on who they do/don't think is great. A little analysis to back up your points would've been nice.

Who cares if he's being "subjective"? He's starting a thread with a thoughtful post. If someone else wants to add a name, great. These are his great players.

MELO 15
11-19-2010, 03:25 AM
Dirk had a better series than Melo and Melo had Billups, Smith and Nene going off while Dirk had Howard scoring 5 a game.

For you to say Dirk isn't clutch means YOU haven't watched basketball.

I never said dirk wasn't clutch I said Melo is more clutch then dirk, and secound melo had a better series cause they simply moved to the wcf, and he did it being clutch wich was your argument. I said Melo was better with the ball in his hand in clutch moments, you need to stop putting words in my mouth and stop putting dirk up there with the likes of Melo kobe wade lebron durant, he might be after those guys, but not before, and if your talking clutch, kobe 1a, Melo 1b