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View Full Version : Stat Stuffer on a Bad Team



arkanian215
11-18-2010, 03:46 PM
I've heard a lot of folks say on this forum that the reason why guys like Brook Lopez last season or Kevin Love this season are stuffing the stats sheet is because they're just average players on bad teams. Is there evidence of this?

Kevin Durant
His team won 20 and 23 games his first two years in the league.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Tyreke Evans
His Kings won 25 games last year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html

Stephen Curry
Warriors won 26 games last year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

Elton Brand
Bulls won 17 and 15 games. Clippers won 39, 27, 28, 37, 47, 40. 76ers 41, 27
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

Pau Gasol
23, 28, 50, 45, 49, 22 (59 games played) Lakers 65, 57
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Jamal Crawford
Bulls 15, 21, 30, 23 Knicks 33, 23, 33, 23 Hawks 53
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crawfja01.html

Antawn Jamison
Warriors 21, 19, 17, 21, 38 Mavs 52 Wizards 45, 42, 41, 43, 19
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html

Monta Ellis
Warriors 34, 42, 48, 29, 26
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

Chris Bosh
Raptors 33, 33, 27, 47, 41, 33, 40
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

So how would one differentiate between a stat stuffing volume shooter vs someone who is good? I think it goes back to efficiency stats. Whether a team wins or not isn't solely up to them. Of course these players should improve over time and their contribution to the game should be noted. I just find it odd that people will say so and so is performing well because they're on a bad team and not include other players who were in the same circumstance (ex: Durant, Evans, Stephen Curry).

save the knicks
12-14-2010, 09:34 PM
You missed David Lee and Zach Randolph

Weezy
12-15-2010, 03:15 PM
Kevin Love this year especially.

Chronz
12-15-2010, 03:24 PM
You missed David Lee and Zach Randolph

Whats your take on them?

KnicksorBust
12-17-2010, 12:28 PM
I've heard a lot of folks say on this forum that the reason why guys like Brook Lopez last season or Kevin Love this season are stuffing the stats sheet is because they're just average players on bad teams. Is there evidence of this?

Kevin Durant
His team won 20 and 23 games his first two years in the league.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

Tyreke Evans
His Kings won 25 games last year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html

Stephen Curry
Warriors won 26 games last year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

Elton Brand
Bulls won 17 and 15 games. Clippers won 39, 27, 28, 37, 47, 40. 76ers 41, 27
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

Pau Gasol
23, 28, 50, 45, 49, 22 (59 games played) Lakers 65, 57
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html

Jamal Crawford
Bulls 15, 21, 30, 23 Knicks 33, 23, 33, 23 Hawks 53
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crawfja01.html

Antawn Jamison
Warriors 21, 19, 17, 21, 38 Mavs 52 Wizards 45, 42, 41, 43, 19
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html

Monta Ellis
Warriors 34, 42, 48, 29, 26
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

Chris Bosh
Raptors 33, 33, 27, 47, 41, 33, 40
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

So how would one differentiate between a stat stuffing volume shooter vs someone who is good? I think it goes back to efficiency stats. Whether a team wins or not isn't solely up to them. Of course these players should improve over time and their contribution to the game should be noted. I just find it odd that people will say so and so is performing well because they're on a bad team and not include other players who were in the same circumstance (ex: Durant, Evans, Stephen Curry).

For me it boils down to a couple of things:
1. Effeciency
2. Versatility
3. Defense

Someone like Durant or Curry is scoring so effeciently that you can't help but marvel at his numbers in spite of the fact that he had such little help at the start of his career. Someone like Tyreke Evans meanwhile has incredible appeal because of his versatility. He can you get you 20 points... but also 5 assists and 5 rebounds. That makes him a well-rounded offensive player so he must be good.

On the other hand low effeciency scorers or players that are weak defensively take abuse. This is your Jamal Crawfords, your Zach Randolphs, etc.

CaptainHay
01-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Well obviously decent players on bad teams means the top 2 players on that team will get inflated stats. But... Chris Bosh isn't decent. He is pretty good. I'm a raptor fan and I hate him personally, but he got us to the playoffs a couple times, something Bargnani won't do for us this year.

Stats are inconclusive to a players overall skill and effort.

If they do these 4 things I respect them
1. Defend Well or better (I don't enjoy poor defenders in the NBA)
2. Hustle. Even if you still miss your put-back
3. Rebound according to size. (I'm not saying I expect a 6 footer to get 10 rebounds, but i expect a 6 footer to get 2, and 6"5 to get 5, 7 footer to get 8+
4. Score according to team option. Example: Kobe Bryant is #1 option for offense on the Lakers, so he should score 20+

These are players I like due to all those:

Josh Smith
Dwight Howard
DeMar DeRozan
Rajon Rondo

John Walls Era
02-22-2011, 03:46 AM
Is Kevin Love not considered a stat stuffer? I know his rebounding percentages and ORtg is beast, but to an extent playing on a bad team has helped him.

What?
02-25-2011, 04:20 AM
K Love can be considered a stat stuffer for two reasons imo.

1. His team plays at the highest pace in the NBA

2. Michael Beasley, Darko Milic, Luke Ridnour, are all below average rebounders.

Kevin Love is at the very least a top 3 rebounder and arguably #1 in the NBA at rebounding but similiar to Brook Lopez last year (pf was Yi jianlian) and David Lee (Jeffries?) stats ,specifically rebounding, benefited from playing with scrubs at the other big man position.

Trace
02-26-2011, 06:08 AM
K Love can be considered a stat stuffer for two reasons imo.

1. His team plays at the highest pace in the NBA

2. Michael Beasley, Darko Milic, Luke Ridnour, are all below average rebounders.

Kevin Love is at the very least a top 3 rebounder and arguably #1 in the NBA at rebounding but similiar to Brook Lopez last year (pf was Yi jianlian) and David Lee (Jeffries?) stats ,specifically rebounding, benefited from playing with scrubs at the other big man position.

Yeah but David Lee is still going strong. He has just been injured and being on a team with Andris and Wright (strong rebounder for his position) doesn't particularly help either.

DR_1
02-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Kevin Love is a beast - I agree, his team could be better, and that's why I can't call him an elite player yet, but he's doing all he can with the limited options he has right now - and he's not doing too badly, I would say lol.