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View Full Version : How the Suns destroyed themselves in 2008.



silentcompany
11-17-2010, 06:36 PM
One bad move can transform your franchise from perennial contender into a lottery team.

When the Suns acquired Steve Nash in 2004 they became one of the best teams in the league.

From 2004-08 the Suns finished with either the 1st or 2nd best record in the Western Conference.

If it aint broke don’t fix it, well apparently Steve Kerr never heard that expression.

In 2008, after 4 straight years of being an all-star, Marion wanted a contract extension. The Suns due to pay him 18mil in 2008 didn’t want to re-sign him for around that number, Marion like most people wasn’t looking to get a pay-cut. I could understand where the Suns are coming from though. How could they have Marion making $6mil more than Nash and $3mil more than Amare?

2004-08
Shawn Marion
18 PPG on 14 FG attempts and 10.6 RPG
Tim Duncan
19.5 PPG on 15 FG attempts and 11 RPG

If the Suns really didn’t want to pay Marion and were looking to get under the cap, we would have understood a salary dump.
But instead they trade Marion away so that they can pay Shaq $20 million a season?? This is ******** on so many levels:

Marion would have been cheaper and his numbers would have been just as good…
Shaq made 9 million more than Steve Nash…
Shaq made as much as Stoudemire and Barbosa combined…
Shaq made 5 million more than ten guys on the roster combined. Barbosa, Hill, Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Tucker, Barnes, Amundson, Sims, and Dee Brown…


Shaq's from 2007-09
14.5 PPG on 10 FGA, 9 RPG, 1.6 APG
Marion from 2007-09
13.5 PPG on 12 FGA, 9 RPG, 2.2 APG

Also during that time:
Marion played in 201 games, Shaq played in 197.
Marion averaged $16.4 mil in salary, Shaq $20.3 mil.


When Phoenix traded away Marion for Shaq in 2008 it marked the begging of the end for them. They got so close in 2007, that Horry hip-check on Nash basically cost them a NBA championship. If they had just came back with the same team next year they would have had a great chance to get to the Finals.

Winning an NBA championship is like trying to hit on a chick that isn't really into you. Sometimes you gotta go through some trials and tribulations. But if you don’t give up, don’t give in, go to your breaking point, then a little farther, good things happen.

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 06:45 PM
Marion wouldn't have helped them beat the Lakers.

STAT32
11-17-2010, 06:50 PM
This thread seems a little ill-timed...

Anyway, it's tough to go back and say the Suns should have done this and should have done that. Salary dumping Shawn Marion would have caused the fan-base to revolt, you don't salary dump players who are still that efficient. Obviously the Suns weren't in a cost-cutting mode at that time and were looking for one last go of things. We took our shot, and it failed. But most people seem to forget, the seven seconds or Shaq offense was one of the most efficient offensive displays EVER.

I really hate seeing Steve Kerr get the brunt of the blame on that deal as well. It's a well known fact here in Phoenix that Robert Sarver was the main proponent in the Shaq deal (Jersey Sales=MONEY!). Not to mention Kerr made some brilliant moves, trading Raja Bell and Boris Diaw for Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley has done wonders for us. Trading up to get Goran Dragic has proven to be a steal. Even Robin Lopez at the end of last year showed some really good promise (Granted, he's regressed a bit). And everyone continues to neglect the fact that Kerr brought in Grant Hill for the VET MIN, Grant is playing better than a lot of teams starting SF's and he makes 10-15 million less.

It's always easy to go back and criticize past decisions.

abe_froman
11-17-2010, 06:52 PM
When Phoenix traded away Marion for Shaq in 2008 it marked the begging of the end for them. They got so close in 2007, that Horry hip-check on Nash basically cost them a NBA championship. If they had just came back with the same team next year they would have had a great chance to get to the Finals.
.
they were close,but they were closer last year(without marion on the team).so i really dont know why you think he's so impactful,and a key to their hopes of success

AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 06:54 PM
Shaq was only on a 2 year deal, a lot less than Marion wouldve gotten with an extension. Dont see how the money is for your argument.

numba1CHANGsta
11-17-2010, 06:56 PM
Some trades are made to avoid giving a certain player an extension

jkcronyn
11-17-2010, 07:04 PM
another trade that killed a dynasty, chauncey billups for allen iverson, detroit died and will be dead for years to come from that

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 07:05 PM
Some trades are made to avoid giving a certain player an extension

Why didn't they want to give Marion and extension?
He was their third best player at the time and had gone to the all-star game 4 years in a row...

djeller1139
11-17-2010, 07:08 PM
Comparing Marion to Duncan...

The reason why it was a bad move was that Shaq didn't first their style of play.

Jenceman
11-17-2010, 07:13 PM
Yet they were two games from the finals last year...

hgtiger32
11-17-2010, 07:16 PM
hindsight is 20/20. end of story. close thread

STAT32
11-17-2010, 07:16 PM
Why didn't they want to give Marion and extension?
He was their third best player at the time and had gone to the all-star game 4 years in a row...

Yet he wanted to be the highest paid player on the team.

SteveNash
11-17-2010, 07:18 PM
They were destroyed with or without Marion.

Also, comparing Marion's stats to Duncan's to make a point that they were equals is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 07:19 PM
Shaq was only on a 2 year deal, a lot less than Marion wouldve gotten with an extension. Dont see how the money is for your argument.

Yes Marion is 6 years younger than Shaq. In theory he would get a longer contract because he would be in the league longer.
Suns paid Shaq 42mil for 2 years of service.
Suns could have given 42mil to Marion for around 3 years of service.

Marion didn't need the ball in his hands to be effective and for the numbers Marion put up he was still a dollar for dollar a better deal.

Those numbers from 07-09 are numbers Marion put up WITHOUT Nash, in all likely-hood his numbers would have been higher if he continued to play with Nash.

numba1CHANGsta
11-17-2010, 07:20 PM
Why didn't they want to give Marion and extension?
He was their third best player at the time and had gone to the all-star game 4 years in a row...

Same reason why they didnt give one to Amare, they didnt think it would have been worth the risk, besides Marion is overrated, the player they should have really kept was Joe Johnson, Nash, JJ, and Amare would have been a scary team for many years

STAT32
11-17-2010, 07:23 PM
Yes Marion is 6 years younger than Shaq. In theory he would get a longer contract because he would be in the league longer.
Suns paid Shaq 42mil for 2 years of service.
Suns could have given 42mil to Marion for around 3 years of service.

Marion didn't need the ball in his hands to be effective and for the numbers Marion put up he was still a dollar for dollar a better deal.

Those numbers from 07-09 are numbers Marion put up WITHOUT Nash, in all likely-hood his numbers would have been higher if he continued to play with Nash.

Oh man, how quickly people forget things.

Shawn Marion wanted MAX money, he didn't get it, he became a cancer in the locker room, so he got traded.

Please don't justify Marion as a MAX player. He was not at the time, and never was.

ptransfer
11-17-2010, 07:26 PM
I really hate people who look at the suns record before the trade as proof for how bad the Shaq trade was. Anyone who actually was watching games would have realised that
1. We had a really easy schedule
2. We were running on fumes, including Marion. We were winning and we were efficient because everyone had been playing that way for years. But for the first time in the 7sol era, it was obvious that this wasn't a tough, playoff winning team.

Marion decline was sharp once he left Phx, and it wasn't just because of no Steve Nash.

Shaq was brought in to defend Duncan and let Amare play PF. After a slow adjustment we started to play some really good ball coming to the end of that season. Amare was killing people, and we took game 1 against SA to double overtime. Shaq actually defended Tim well. We just didn't realise how destructive the pick n roll defence combo of Nash/Shaq would be. Tony Parker killed us on the way to a Finals MVP. And Steve Kerr recognised, even if he wasn't aware of it at the time, it wasn't the 7SOL or the lack of D which hurts Mike D teams, its the lack of Mental Toughness. Something Gentry teams have in spades!

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 07:29 PM
This thread seems a little ill-timed...


What makes you say this thread was ill-timed?
I mean yeah this is old news, but it still seems relevant to today.
No one is trying to cry over spilled milk, but to better understand the moves that are/were made and why.

I never really thought about this until I created a thread about historic Laker killers. Someone said that Marion wasn't a Laker killer and it got me thinking about how much Marion was a part of what the Suns were about.



It's always easy to go back and criticize past decisions.

Yes hindsight is 20/20, but there is something fundamentally wrong in what happened.

It just seemed pretty absurd. Marion is a great player for the Suns, they dont want to pay him, so they go out an pay MORE to Shaq? The more you go over the numbers the more it doesn't make sense.

STAT32
11-17-2010, 07:32 PM
Money-wise, the deal saved us cash and gave us one last *shot*.

Marion was 30yrs old at the time and wanted a 5yr max contract. Had we done that we'd be looking at the Suns now saying, "Boy, Marion's contract sure is holding that team back".

There will always be things to gripe about no matter how you look at it.

LeonFSU
11-17-2010, 07:38 PM
what a great thread

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 07:39 PM
Oh man, how quickly people forget things.

Shawn Marion wanted MAX money, he didn't get it, he became a cancer in the locker room, so he got traded.

Please don't justify Marion as a MAX player. He was not at the time, and never was.

I agree there is no way Marion was a MAX player at the time.

At the same time look at it this way;
If you're working at a company and you make 50k a year, you're not gonna want to come back to work next year if they pay you 44k.

That is human nature.

At the same time Marion's contract should never have gotten to a point where he made more than Nash or Amar'e. If Marion was going along making 14-15 mil every year of his deal, he prolly would have stayed with Phoenix for similar money.
Once he got up to 17mil in that final season, in his mind the next logical step was MAX money.


I blame the GM (Kerr's predecessor i think) that gave Marion a deal that had him earning 17mil at one point.

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 07:40 PM
The style of play that made Marion look better than he is wasn't enough to win a championship. They needed size to compete with the Spurs, Celtics and Lakers, because that's the kind of basketball that was winning championships.

The Suns didn't win because of their coach, not because of the Shaq trade.

masalex1205
11-17-2010, 07:41 PM
Silentcompany, this topic has been talked about a lot but not Marion, you are drastically overrating him. Who you need to focus on it Joe Johnson.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 07:48 PM
they were close,but they were closer last year(without marion on the team).so i really dont know why you think he's so impactful,and a key to their hopes of success


Closer last year? Are you serious?
They basically got within 1 game of the Finals in 2007.

gcoll
11-17-2010, 07:59 PM
Closer last year? Are you serious?
They basically got within 1 game of the Finals in 2007.
We lost 4-2 to the Spurs that year, in the round before the Western Conference Finals.

Last year we lost 4-2 to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

I guess "basically 1 game" means 6 wins away. And that's somehow closer than actually 2 wins away?


The style of play that made Marion look better than he is wasn't enough to win a championship. They needed size to compete with the Spurs, Celtics and Lakers, because that's the kind of basketball that was winning championships.
Do any of you people ever stop to think? Where is the logic in this? The Suns style of play is only good enough to be second best? Makes no sense.

Just because the Suns didn't win with that style doesn't mean it can't win. There are tons of other teams trying to play Spurs-style basketball that the Suns have vastly outperformed over the past 5-6 seasons or so.

I mean Christ. The Suns have done way more than the Jazz have over the past 5 years, but nobody is saying "The Jazz style of basketball just can't win!"

And when you consider all the bad breaks the Suns have got....they haven't done too poorly for themselves. Joe Johnson misses most of the WCF our first year of being good. Amare Stoudemire is out the entire second year. The third year was the suspensions.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 08:02 PM
Comparing Marion to Duncan...

Yeah it doesn't seem like a fair comparison seeing as how at the time Duncan had made all NBA 1st team multiple times and Marion has barely made the all-NBA 3rd team twice.

But their numbers are similar...

Ty Fast
11-17-2010, 08:09 PM
you got to be alble to play defense if you want to win an nba title

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AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 08:15 PM
you got to be alble to play defense if you want to win an nba title

Or just not have two of your key players suspended for the biggest game of the year over some ******** rule on a ******** play.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 08:18 PM
We lost 4-2 to the Spurs that year, in the round before the Western Conference Finals.

Last year we lost 4-2 to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.

I guess "basically 1 game" means 6 wins away. And that's somehow closer than actually 2 wins away?

Okay let me show u my logic that results in basically 1 game from a championship. The Spurs rolled the Cavs, Suns would have done the same. I'm not even going to consider the 2007 Cavs as a legit threat seeing as how they got swept. So if the Suns didn't get Amar'e and Diaw suspended they have a great chance of beating the Spurs in 7.

2007 WCF
Game 1: SPURS 111 v SUNS 106
Game 2: SPURS 81 v SUNS 101
Game 3: SUNS 101 v SPURS 108
Game 4: SUNS 104 v SPURS 98
Game 5: SPURS 88 v SUNS 85
Game 6: SUNS 106 v SPURS 114

Suns lost by an average of 5.75 points

2010 WCF

Game 1: LAKERS 128 v SUNS 107
Game 2: LAKERS 124 v SUNS 112
Game 3: LAKERS 109 v SUNS 118
Game 4: LAKERS 115 v SUNS 106
Game 5: LAKERS 103 v SUNS 101
Game 6: LAKERS 111 v SUNS 103

Suns lost by an average of 12.5 points



Which series was closer?

JJ_JKidd
11-17-2010, 08:32 PM
They could have gotten KG instead :confused::confused:

Meatmypet
11-17-2010, 08:36 PM
The Spurs and the league screwed Phoenix in '07 and '08.

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 08:43 PM
The Spurs and the league screwed Phoenix in '07 and '08.

Screwed em by being better than them and winning? Sure did.

Meatmypet
11-17-2010, 08:48 PM
Screwed em by being better than them and winning? Sure did.

If you mean better by having Robert Horry hipcheck Nash and the league suspending Amare for checking on his friend, sure.

Oh and Tim Donaghy, Eddie Rush and Greg Willard didn't help the cause either. Lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkKdXLwt0U - Proof!

JJ_JKidd
11-17-2010, 08:48 PM
The Spurs and the league screwed Phoenix in '07 and '08.

It takes some DEFENSE to win a Chip! SOLID D at that matter. :clap:

gcoll
11-17-2010, 08:56 PM
Okay let me show u my logic that results in basically 1 game from a championship. The Spurs rolled the Cavs, Suns would have done the same. I'm not even going to consider the 2007 Cavs as a legit threat seeing as how they got swept. So if the Suns didn't get Amar'e and Diaw suspended they have a great chance of beating the Spurs in 7.

2007 WCF
Game 1: SPURS 111 v SUNS 106
Game 2: SPURS 81 v SUNS 101
Game 3: SUNS 101 v SPURS 108
Game 4: SUNS 104 v SPURS 98
Game 5: SPURS 88 v SUNS 85
Game 6: SUNS 106 v SPURS 114

Suns lost by an average of 5.75 points

2010 WCF

Game 1: LAKERS 128 v SUNS 107
Game 2: LAKERS 124 v SUNS 112
Game 3: LAKERS 109 v SUNS 118
Game 4: LAKERS 115 v SUNS 106
Game 5: LAKERS 103 v SUNS 101
Game 6: LAKERS 111 v SUNS 103

Suns lost by an average of 12.5 points



Which series was closer?

The Suns should have beat the Spurs. But using the average loss margin is pretty dumb. Especially since each series is about the same, save one outlier. Both series could have gone either way.

That Lakers team was better than that Spurs team though. So it throws it off.


Screwed em by being better than them and winning? Sure did.
I believe he was referring to the suspensions. Series tied 2-2. Coming back to Phoenix. Had to play without Stoudemire or Diaw. Any recollection of that?


It takes some DEFENSE to win a Chip! SOLID D at that matter
So. Without playing defense, you can only get to back-to-back Western Conference Finals. Essentially, you can be better than every team in the league...except for one. That makes no ****ing logical sense whatsoever.

The Suns were missing something that is necessary to win a championship. Luck. You gotta catch a few breaks to win the title. The bounces went against the Suns.

Meatmypet
11-17-2010, 08:57 PM
It takes some DEFENSE to win a Chip! SOLID D at that matter. :clap:

Check my second post. Lol.

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 09:13 PM
I believe he was referring to the suspensions. Series tied 2-2. Coming back to Phoenix. Had to play without Stoudemire or Diaw. Any recollection of that?


Yep. They broke a rule, got punished for it. You want them to make an exception to the rule just so your Suns could have possibly won? They should have gotten past it and came back in game 6. No sense in *****ing about it now. You don't see me complaining about times I felt the Spurs got short changed.

gcoll
11-17-2010, 09:16 PM
Yep. They broke a rule, got punished for it. You want them to make an exception to the rule just so your Suns could have possibly won? They should have gotten past it and came back in game 6. No sense in *****ing about it now. You don't see me complaining about times I felt the Spurs got short changed.
I think if a rule rewards a team that starts a fight, then it is a bad rule.

The Suns get bad breaks every year. The first year, Joe Johnson was injured for the WCF against the Spurs. The next year Stoudemire out. The following year the suspensions.

It's tough to overcome that sort of thing. It's in response to people saying "See. The Suns lost because of their style". When we've done as well as we have, despite those bad breaks, and still get **** on constantly....you gotta defend your team.

I understand not wanting to admit that the Spurs victory over the Suns in 07 was somewhat tainted, but it was. They didn't beat them at 100%. Just acknowledge that your team got a HUGE break and move on.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 09:24 PM
They were destroyed with or without Marion.

Also, comparing Marion's stats to Duncan's to make a point that they were equals is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

I was trying to figure out if Marion was over/underpaid at the time(2004-2008).

Please find me another NBA player(04-08) that was comparable to Marion in terms of athletic ability, stats, and salary.

I drew a blank, so I went and looked at the rosters from the All-star games from 04-08. I wanted to find which repeat All-stars made a similiar amount of money.

I didn't star off thinking Duncan = Marion.
I tried to find one statistical area where Duncan was dominant over Marion(from 2004-2008) the closest I got was;

Duncan averaged 2.5 BPG and 3.5 APG
Marion averaged 1.5 BPG and 2.0 APG

Just look at Marion's and Duncan's number from 2004-2005. Do you still think comparing them is one of the dumbest things you've heard?

http://imgur.com/rwYS0.jpg

JJ_JKidd
11-17-2010, 09:26 PM
The Suns should have beat the Spurs. But using the average loss margin is pretty dumb. Especially since each series is about the same, save one outlier. Both series could have gone either way.

That Lakers team was better than that Spurs team though. So it throws it off.


I believe he was referring to the suspensions. Series tied 2-2. Coming back to Phoenix. Had to play without Stoudemire or Diaw. Any recollection of that?


So. Without playing defense, you can only get to back-to-back Western Conference Finals. Essentially, you can be better than every team in the league...except for one. That makes no ****ing logical sense whatsoever.

The Suns were missing something that is necessary to win a championship. Luck. You gotta catch a few breaks to win the title. The bounces went against the Suns.


Check my second post. Lol.

Guys I can understand your frustration with those numerous Suns chances but how in the effen world would you put LUCK as a necessary factor? Thats just so "amateruristic."

Can you measure luck? Is there a scientific way to measure it so that you can say that the Lakers, Lakers, Celtics, Spurs were luckier than the rest of the other teams during the time they won their Chip? As opposed to DEFENSE in which it is readily measurable through the ff: TO's forced, points allowed, FG %, etc?

CountSackula
11-17-2010, 09:30 PM
Soo, would instead of calling them the Suns, we should call them the Black Dwarfs.
:dance2:

gcoll
11-17-2010, 09:30 PM
Guys I can understand your frustration with those numerous Suns chances but how in the effen world would you put LUCK as a necessary factor? Thats just so "amateruristic."

Can you measure luck? Is there a scientific way to measure it so that you can say that the Lakers, Lakers, Celtics, Spurs were luckier than the rest of the other teams during the time they won their Chip? As opposed to DEFENSE in which it is readily measurable through the ff: TO's forced, points allowed, FG %, etc?
Usually the best teams are pretty evenly matched. It can go either way. You gotta get a few breaks.

The better defensive team doesn't always win. And 7 games is a small sample size.

Sports just aren't a science. Anyone who pretends that there is only one way to win a basketball game, or that the team that wins the championship, was certain to win the championship, is a buffoon.

JJ_JKidd
11-17-2010, 09:38 PM
Usually the best teams are pretty evenly matched. It can go either way. You gotta get a few breaks.

The better defensive team doesn't always win. And 7 games is a small sample size.

Sports just aren't a science. Anyone who pretends that there is only one way to win a basketball game, or that the team that wins the championship, was certain to win the championship, is a buffoon.

Yes I know that, but saying that the breaks did no go the Suns' way for the past how many seasons are like saying that they are CURSED.

They could have gotten KG before Boston got to him then that would probably change the equation.

gcoll
11-17-2010, 09:42 PM
Yes I know that, but saying that the breaks did no go the Suns' way for the past how many seasons are like saying that they are CURSED.

They could have gotten KG before Boston got to him then that would probably change the equation.
KG may have changed the equation, but what is done is done.

Saying the Suns caught bad breaks is just acknowledging a fact. It is not the same as believing in magic.

KnicksorBust
11-17-2010, 09:50 PM
Money-wise, the deal saved us cash and gave us one last *shot*.

Marion was 30yrs old at the time and wanted a 5yr max contract. Had we done that we'd be looking at the Suns now saying, "Boy, Marion's contract sure is holding that team back".

There will always be things to gripe about no matter how you look at it.

I agree. Marion would be getting $20 million right now to get 10ppg, 6rpg and get half a steal and half a block per game. The Suns cut bait at the right time with that malcontent.

The real issue with the Suns is how terribly they spend their money:
1. They overpay mediocre players - QRich, Diaw, Marcus Banks
2. They sell their draft picks to shed salary - 04 sold Luol Deng, 05 sold Rajon Rondo, 08 sold Serge Ibaka
3. They lowballed the perfect wing player for their team - 24 year old Joe Johnson should never have left a team that came within two wins of the '05 Finals

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:02 PM
Marion wanted a MAX Contract. There is no way any team in the league would've game one.
When Phoenix didn't give him the MAX extension, Marion apparently became a cancer in the locker room.

The Shaq trade had to happen, there was no way Phoenix was just going to Dump Marion for expirngs, SHAQ was the best player available via trade. So it had to be done.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 10:03 PM
Yep. They broke a rule, got punished for it. You want them to make an exception to the rule just so your Suns could have possibly won? They should have gotten past it and came back in game


Players could open a butcher shop in the final 2 minutes of a game and the refs would look the other way.

WHY do they do this? because officials don't want to determine the outcome of a game.

Like the officials in the final 2mins the league could have given the Suns the benefit of the doubt.

They didn't have to suspend Diaw and Amar'e effectively deciding the outcome of the series. In this case they made a judgment call to go by the letter of the law. This is what upset so many fans.

The Spurs were the "dirty" ones that series.
Bowen kneed Nash in the groin in game 3.

So when Horry commits an obvious flagrant 2 on Nash the Spurs are the ones in the wrong.

Yet the Suns suffer the harshest penalty?

I guess all comedy is mini-tragedy.
The whole situation was hilarious, the Spurs do something wrong and they end up being rewarded for it.

This is what made so many people furious.
What happened to the Suns is actually one of everyones worst nightmares.
Doing the right thing and being punished, while those around you do the wrong thing and are rewarded.

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:06 PM
I agree. Marion would be getting $20 million right now to get 10ppg, 6rpg and get half a steal and half a block per game. The Suns cut bait at the right time with that malcontent.

The real issue with the Suns is how terribly they spend their money:
1. They overpay mediocre players - QRich, Diaw, Marcus Banks
2. They sell their draft picks to shed salary - 04 sold Luol Deng, 05 sold Rajon Rondo, 08 sold Serge Ibaka
3. They lowballed the perfect wing player for their team - 24 year old Joe Johnson should never have left a team that came within two wins of the '05 Finals

Joe Johnson wanted to leave to become "the man". He wanted to be the franchise player, we did not want to trade him, he wanted to leave.

dodie53
11-17-2010, 10:09 PM
they should have kept Joe.

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 10:09 PM
I think if a rule rewards a team that starts a fight, then it is a bad rule.

But it was/is the rule, and you have to follow it.



The Suns get bad breaks every year. The first year, Joe Johnson was injured for the WCF against the Spurs. The next year Stoudemire out. The following year the suspensions.

It's tough to overcome that sort of thing. It's in response to people saying "See. The Suns lost because of their style". When we've done as well as we have, despite those bad breaks, and still get **** on constantly....you gotta defend your team.

I understand not wanting to admit that the Spurs victory over the Suns in 07 was somewhat tainted, but it was. They didn't beat them at 100%. Just acknowledge that your team got a HUGE break and move on.

I'm not denying that the suspensions didn't help the Spurs, but they did go on to win the championship and the Suns DID have a chance to come back. I get tired of people saying the Suns "should have won" in 2007. If they "should have won" why didn't they win game 6?

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:13 PM
they should have kept Joe.

He wanted to leave.

silentcompany
11-17-2010, 10:14 PM
Joe Johnson wanted to leave to become "the man". He wanted to be the franchise player, we did not want to trade him, he wanted to leave.

I think being the "man" means being the guy on the squad with a MAX deal.
If Joe had stayed with the Suns would he have gotten a MAX deal from them this past summer? If the first answer that pops in to your head is no, then we know why Joe wanted to leave.

king4day
11-17-2010, 10:15 PM
This thread seems a little ill-timed...

Anyway, it's tough to go back and say the Suns should have done this and should have done that. Salary dumping Shawn Marion would have caused the fan-base to revolt, you don't salary dump players who are still that efficient. Obviously the Suns weren't in a cost-cutting mode at that time and were looking for one last go of things. We took our shot, and it failed. But most people seem to forget, the seven seconds or Shaq offense was one of the most efficient offensive displays EVER.

I really hate seeing Steve Kerr get the brunt of the blame on that deal as well. It's a well known fact here in Phoenix that Robert Sarver was the main proponent in the Shaq deal (Jersey Sales=MONEY!). Not to mention Kerr made some brilliant moves, trading Raja Bell and Boris Diaw for Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley has done wonders for us. Trading up to get Goran Dragic has proven to be a steal. Even Robin Lopez at the end of last year showed some really good promise (Granted, he's regressed a bit). And everyone continues to neglect the fact that Kerr brought in Grant Hill for the VET MIN, Grant is playing better than a lot of teams starting SF's and he makes 10-15 million less.

It's always easy to go back and criticize past decisions.

Agreed. We could have had Gasol or Garnett if he was willing to sign an extension with either team. He didn't and the league became what it is today. Dumping marion was never an option.

king4day
11-17-2010, 10:17 PM
I think being the "man" means being the guy on the squad with a MAX deal.
If Joe had stayed with the Suns would he have gotten a MAX deal from them this past summer? If the first answer that pops in to your head is no, then we know why Joe wanted to leave.

There woulda been two 'men' on the team with Amar'e. He just wanted to get paid and hated the Suns brass.

Meatmypet
11-17-2010, 10:17 PM
Guys I can understand your frustration with those numerous Suns chances but how in the effen world would you put LUCK as a necessary factor? Thats just so "amateruristic."

Can you measure luck? Is there a scientific way to measure it so that you can say that the Lakers, Lakers, Celtics, Spurs were luckier than the rest of the other teams during the time they won their Chip? As opposed to DEFENSE in which it is readily measurable through the ff: TO's forced, points allowed, FG %, etc?

Oh sure, totally negate the facts I brought up in my post with the injuries, Spurs playing dirty and referees cheating.

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:19 PM
I think being the "man" means being the guy on the squad with a MAX deal.
If Joe had stayed with the Suns would he have gotten a MAX deal from them this past summer? If the first answer that pops in to your head is no, then we know why Joe wanted to leave.

NO. Joe Johnson wanted to leave. Phoenix were always going to match the contract. Im 99% sure Joe Johnson even told the Suns FO to not match it.

king4day
11-17-2010, 10:23 PM
But it was/is the rule, and you have to follow it.



I'm not denying that the suspensions didn't help the Spurs, but they did go on to win the championship and the Suns DID have a chance to come back. I get tired of people saying the Suns "should have won" in 2007. If they "should have won" why didn't they win game 6?

Gotta stop with the 'past'. The suns had controlled game 6 and gassed out in the 4th. We'll never know what would have happened with Amar'e and Diaw, had they played that game, but I'm sure the guys would have had more rest.

iggypop123
11-17-2010, 10:36 PM
suns self destructed when they gave away the draft picks to luol deng, rajan rondo, goran dragic, rudy fernandez

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:37 PM
suns self destructed when they gave away the draft picks to luol deng, rajan rondo, goran dragic, rudy fernandez

:confused:

KnicksorBust
11-17-2010, 10:38 PM
Joe Johnson wanted to leave to become "the man". He wanted to be the franchise player, we did not want to trade him, he wanted to leave.

That may have been part of it but Sarver admitted himself that he screwed up the Johnson deal. The Suns lowballed him and he got so angry that he didn't even want them to match the Hawks offer.

gcoll
11-17-2010, 10:41 PM
That may have been part of it but Sarver admitted himself that he screwed up the Johnson deal. The Suns lowballed him and he got so angry that he didn't even want them to match the Hawks offer.
That's Sarver. He's a ****ing *** hole. He did it to Steve Kerr too.

king4day
11-17-2010, 10:42 PM
Was this thread made just to piss off Suns fans?

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:43 PM
That may have been part of it but Sarver admitted himself that he screwed up the Johnson deal. The Suns lowballed him and he got so angry that he didn't even want them to match the Hawks offer.

Again, we did not low ball Johnson. They were always going to match what ever offer someone offered him. When Atlanta offered him his deal, Joe Johnson told the Suns not to match it. Thats when they worked out a trade with Diaw.

The only thing Sarver admitted he regret, was not extending Johnson during the season instead of waiting till the off season.

Once again Phoenix wanted to keep Joe Johnson, he wanted to leave.

iggypop123
11-17-2010, 10:43 PM
:confused:

oops that was the spurs mistake. and he sure came back to bite them in the ***

Giraffes Rule
11-17-2010, 10:45 PM
Gotta stop with the 'past'. The suns had controlled game 6 and gassed out in the 4th. We'll never know what would have happened with Amar'e and Diaw, had they played that game, but I'm sure the guys would have had more rest.

Wait, who are you saying to stop with the past? I'm just defending my team here from these Suns fans who won't let go of '07.

gcoll
11-17-2010, 10:47 PM
Again, we did not low ball Johnson. They were always going to match what ever offer someone offered him. When Atlanta offered him his deal, Joe Johnson told the Suns not to match it. Thats when they worked out a trade with Diaw.

The only thing Sarver admitted he regret, was not extending Johnson during the season instead of waiting till the off season.

Once again Phoenix wanted to keep Joe Johnson, he wanted to leave.

From what I remember, Joe Johnson and Amare didn't get along.


Wait, who are you saying to stop with the past? I'm just defending my team here from these Suns fans who won't let go of '07.
Well. We're sort of talking about the past.

It's just when people say that the Suns never won a title due to their style. It's not true. It's a really stupid point. We never won a title due to bad breaks, and coming up against really good teams. The style the Suns play can win. It does win. We've been one of the best regular season, and best playoff teams of the past 5 years.

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 10:49 PM
Yer i have heard that before (that Amare and JJ didnt get along)

king4day
11-17-2010, 10:50 PM
Wait, who are you saying to stop with the past? I'm just defending my team here from these Suns fans who won't let go of '07.

I understand defending your team. THe problem I have is a Laker fan opening up this can of worms. THis thread never shoulda been created.
Suns fans have gotten past it in that we don't talk about it. No one wants to. But you get threads like this that bring it all up again.

AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 10:50 PM
Tim Donaghy was a part of that series. Enough said.

AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 10:54 PM
But it was/is the rule, and you have to follow it.

What about the part where Duncan and Bowen stepped on to the floor but were not suspended? Why was that not followed?

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 11:02 PM
What about the part where Duncan and Bowen stepped on to the floor but were not suspended? Why was that not followed?

It was ********.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

James Jones and Francisco Elson were in a little scuffle early in the 2nd quarter.

Duncan got off the bench and was a good 2-3 meters on the court. Then Bowen got up and brought Duncan back to bench.

I dont Understand why they didn't get suspended when it happened and i still don't to this day.

AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 11:14 PM
It was ********.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

James Jones and Francisco Elson were in a little scuffle early in the 2nd quarter.

Duncan got off the bench and was a good 2-3 meters on the court. Then Bowen got up and brought Duncan back to bench.

I dont Understand why they didn't get suspended when it happened and i still don't to this day.

I think I read somewhere they werent suspended because it only applies when there is an "altercation" on the floor.

So when Jones and Elson get in a "scuffle" it is not an "altercation." But when a Spurs bench player is put in the game in garbage time when the game was decided, and proceeds to go straight after and hip-check the other team's star PG, and Nash makes no attempt to retaliate, it becomes an "altercation."

God dammit... why was this brought up? Gets me all worked up. lol :facepalm:

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2010, 11:20 PM
I think I read somewhere they werent suspended because it only applies when there is an "altercation" on the floor.

So when Jones and Elson get in a "scuffle" it is not an "altercation." But when a Spurs bench player is put in the game in garbage time when the game was decided, and proceeds to go straight after and hip-check the other team's star PG, and Nash makes no attempt to retaliate, it becomes an "altercation."

God dammit... why was this brought up? Gets me all worked up. lol :facepalm:

This is what im saying I don't understand.

Jones and Elson were in an altercation. A scuffle is an altercation.

As this is going on Duncan and Bowen both end up on the court, its is absolutely ridiclious that they were not suspended also.

AZCardsFan
11-17-2010, 11:36 PM
This is what im saying I don't understand.

Jones and Elson were in an altercation. A scuffle is an altercation.

As this is going on Duncan and Bowen both end up on the court, its is absolutely ridiclious that they were not suspended also.

Yeah so basically an interpretation of the word "altercation" help decide the WCF.

Can we admit that this rule is ****in retarted? :eyebrow:

JJ_JKidd
11-18-2010, 01:40 AM
Oh sure, totally negate the facts I brought up in my post with the injuries, Spurs playing dirty and referees cheating.

Spurs playing dirty? Which team does not? Raja Bell clotheslining Kobe? LOL

JPHX
11-18-2010, 02:22 AM
was this thread created cause we were raped on national tv?

Meatmypet
11-18-2010, 03:00 AM
Spurs playing dirty? Which team does not? Raja Bell clotheslining Kobe? LOL

And Raja Bell suffered the consequence for that. What's your point? Where's the suspension on Bruce Bowen for kneeing Nash in the groin or Horry hip-checking Nash? Lol.

silentcompany
11-18-2010, 06:23 PM
This thread wasn't created to make Suns fans feel bad. If you want to make a Laker fan feel bad just say 3-1. :P


Anyways I just wanted to point out how important Marion was for the Suns.
Also one more thing I just realized that's pretty funny.

Shaq left the Lakers because the Lakers wouldn't give him a contract extension for the amount he wanted. So the Lakers traded him to Miami.

Marion left the Suns because the Suns wouldn't give him a contract extension for the amount he wanted. So the Suns traded him to Miami..

LOL that's prettty funny no? It gets better. Shaq is traded for Marion!!!

Basically what Shaq did to the Lakers, Marion did to the Suns!! Then the two were traded for each other!!!

Is that irony or coincidence?

king4day
11-18-2010, 06:41 PM
This thread wasn't created to make Suns fans feel bad. If you want to make a Laker fan feel bad just say 3-1. :P


Anyways I just wanted to point out how important Marion was for the Suns.
Also one more thing I just realized that's pretty funny.

Shaq left the Lakers because the Lakers wouldn't give him a contract extension for the amount he wanted. So the Lakers traded him to Miami.

Marion left the Suns because the Suns wouldn't give him a contract extension for the amount he wanted. So the Suns traded him to Miami..

LOL that's prettty funny no? It gets better. Shaq is traded for Marion!!!

Basically what Shaq did to the Lakers, Marion did to the Suns!! Then the two were traded for each other!!!

Is that irony or coincidence?

Looking back now, the Suns might have been better off just letting his contract expire.

The 3-1 thing wouldn't work anymore now that you guys have become elite and won rings again.
I'm not one to use things like that anway as it's a copout to a true debate.

You do bring up good points though.
My biggest beef is, during the Nash era, nothing hurt more than that suspension playoffs. I remember wanting to celebrate so bad when we cameback and won that game, but knew deep down that we were going to be shorthanded.
Maybe the Suns don't play as well in game six as we did without Diaw and Amar'e, but to not know is what hurts.
We Suns fans will never forget that, but like a girl you love that you break up with, the more you distance yourself from it, the less the pain lingers. But it only takes someone to bring it up to stir it all back up again.

The next year, it was clear once LA got Gasol, and Boston got their big 3, that we were a step down. Our play, despite being in first at the time of the trade, was declining and there were too many chinks in the armor to count.

It actually hasn't hurt us long term though. It led us to not retaining D'Antoni, it helped us create the best bench we've ever had, and it allowed us to have our best season (last year) in the Nash era.

|x-M1NTy-x|
11-18-2010, 06:42 PM
2004-08
Shawn Marion
18 PPG on 14 FG attempts and 10.6 RPG
Tim Duncan
19.5 PPG on 15 FG attempts and 11 RPG



i never realized this.. anyways nba witnessed a team rise a fall

KnicksorBust
11-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Again, we did not low ball Johnson. They were always going to match what ever offer someone offered him. When Atlanta offered him his deal, Joe Johnson told the Suns not to match it. Thats when they worked out a trade with Diaw.

The only thing Sarver admitted he regret, was not extending Johnson during the season instead of waiting till the off season.

Once again Phoenix wanted to keep Joe Johnson, he wanted to leave.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

In town for Steve Nash's charity game at Air Canada Centre, Johnson revealed that he directly informed Phoenix managing partner Robert Sarver earlier this week that he would prefer to continue his career as a Hawk.

"We had a discussion," Johnson said in his first extended interview about his future since free agency began July 1.

"I did tell them that."

Asked why he wants to leave the Suns after a breakthrough season, for himself and the team, Johnson said: "It's a lot of things. How things were handled [with Johnson's contract] last summer, how things have been handled this summer. There's been some things going on that aren't great."
Informed late Friday of Johnson's comments, Suns officials declined to respond.

Johnson hoped to sign a six-year, $50 million extension with Phoenix before last season, but the talks stalled with the sides about $5 million apart. At the time, Sarver was hesitant to make another splashy expenditure after committing to front the $400 million purchase of the franchise and then signing Nash and Quentin Richardson to long-term deals worth a combined $110 million.

The Suns offered Johnson a six-year deal in the $60 million range this summer, some $30 million less than he's eligible to receive from his current team. Hoping for significantly more after averaging 17.1 points and shooting 48 percent on 3-pointers to help Phoenix win a stunning 62 games and advance to the Western Conference finals, Johnson and agent Arn Tellem quickly entered into negotiations with the Hawks.

According to sources close to the situation, Johnson is also unhappy with what he perceives as his standing as a "fourth wheel" behind the All-Star trio of Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Marion. Besides the opportunity to be the star man on its youthful roster, Atlanta is offering as much as the rules allow without holding Johnson's Larry Bird rights -- a frontloaded five-year deal worth an estimated $70 million, with an up-front payment as high as $20 million in Year 1.

The Hawks have been planning for weeks to sign Johnson to an offer sheet as soon as the leaguewide moratorium on free-agent signings is lifted. That day, originally scheduled for July 22, is expected to come Tuesday.

The Suns, who would have seven days to match an offer sheet, have consistently said they intend to do just that, and NBA front-office sources reiterated Friday that Phoenix hasn't changed its stance.

Even Johnson, when asked to describe the Suns' reaction to his request to be set free, said: "They say they're going to match."

Phoenix chairman Jerry Colangelo and team president Bryan Colangelo delivered that message to Tellem in a July 9 meeting during a summer-league game in Las Vegas. To increase its matching flexibility, Phoenix agreed Wednesday to trade center Jake Voskuhl to Charlotte and thus remove nearly $2 million from next season's payroll.

It remains to be seen whether Johnson will indeed sign with the Hawks as soon the moratorium ends. If he is intent on going to Atlanta, he and Tellem could choose to hold off on signing the offer sheet in an attempt to draw an improved contract offer out of the Suns or to convince the Suns to engage Atlanta in sign-and-trade talks.

A sign-and-trade could ultimately appeal to the Suns as well, if they decide over the weekend that Johnson's let-me-go plea is more than a mere statement of frustration with negotiations. It's unlikely they would be willing to lose one of their prized assets without compensation, even if management changes course and determines that it's best to sever ties with a player who says he wants to leave.

Johnson, though, insists that his play and commitment to the Suns wouldn't be affected if a signed Hawks offer sheet results in a return to the desert.

"I would come back and work as hard as I ever have," Johnson said. "If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too."



Did Johnson want to be considered more than a 4th option? Sure that was part of it. But I can't help but read that article and decide that contract negotiations (money) was the driving factor in him leaving Phoenix. He even says that he would come back and work as hard as ever if they matched. My belief in my original post remains. They shouldn't have overpaid mediocre players. They shouldn't have sold draft picks. And they shouldn't ruined things with a 24 year old Joe Johnson.

KnicksorBust
11-19-2010, 10:47 PM
..

PHX2daDEATH
11-19-2010, 11:45 PM
Shawn Marion was a player that thrived on athletic ability..once that started to leave him he was never the same again.. I think the Suns could of got Gerald Wallace out of Marion instead of Shaq..but they panicked when the Lakers got Gasol and pulled the trigger on the big cactus..Gerald Wallace in the Suns system makes me have wet dreams..IMO he would of thrived better then Marion.. I think he's shown he's a better rebounder and shooter over the years..

If the Suns would of kept that 04-05 team together (atleast the 5 starters and improve upon the bench) They would of made the finals a couple years and maybe we'd have a banner.. that team was so potent offensively.. ball movement was fascinating that year..thats something I'm hoping these current Suns can learn to do.. The front office knew they were going to have to let either JJ or Marion go at some point, turns out they let em both go.. Think about what theyve gotten in return for Marion basically it was cap-space because thats what Shaq was traded for. I don't disagree with the Marion trade i just think we could of gotten a better deal for him

drew_ellis_23
11-19-2010, 11:55 PM
another trade that killed a dynasty, chauncey billups for allen iverson, detroit died and will be dead for years to come from that

:clap::facepalm::D:speechless:;):eyebrow::eyebrow: :eyebrow::eyebrow:

HouRealCoach
11-20-2010, 01:35 AM
Suns just made it to the WCF and they needed size thats why they made the trade for Shaq

ink
11-20-2010, 01:55 AM
One bad move can transform your franchise from perennial contender into a lottery team.

When the Suns acquired Steve Nash in 2004 they became one of the best teams in the league.

From 2004-08 the Suns finished with either the 1st or 2nd best record in the Western Conference.

If it aint broke don’t fix it, well apparently Steve Kerr never heard that expression.

In 2008, after 4 straight years of being an all-star, Marion wanted a contract extension. The Suns due to pay him 18mil in 2008 didn’t want to re-sign him for around that number, Marion like most people wasn’t looking to get a pay-cut. I could understand where the Suns are coming from though. How could they have Marion making $6mil more than Nash and $3mil more than Amare?

2004-08
Shawn Marion
18 PPG on 14 FG attempts and 10.6 RPG
Tim Duncan
19.5 PPG on 15 FG attempts and 11 RPG

If the Suns really didn’t want to pay Marion and were looking to get under the cap, we would have understood a salary dump.
But instead they trade Marion away so that they can pay Shaq $20 million a season?? This is ******** on so many levels:

Marion would have been cheaper and his numbers would have been just as good…
Shaq made 9 million more than Steve Nash…
Shaq made as much as Stoudemire and Barbosa combined…
Shaq made 5 million more than ten guys on the roster combined. Barbosa, Hill, Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Tucker, Barnes, Amundson, Sims, and Dee Brown…


Shaq's from 2007-09
14.5 PPG on 10 FGA, 9 RPG, 1.6 APG
Marion from 2007-09
13.5 PPG on 12 FGA, 9 RPG, 2.2 APG

Also during that time:
Marion played in 201 games, Shaq played in 197.
Marion averaged $16.4 mil in salary, Shaq $20.3 mil.


When Phoenix traded away Marion for Shaq in 2008 it marked the begging of the end for them. They got so close in 2007, that Horry hip-check on Nash basically cost them a NBA championship. If they had just came back with the same team next year they would have had a great chance to get to the Finals.

Winning an NBA championship is like trying to hit on a chick that isn't really into you. Sometimes you gotta go through some trials and tribulations. But if you don’t give up, don’t give in, go to your breaking point, then a little farther, good things happen.

Marion wanted to leave. And the Suns team of last year was arguably the best Suns team of the decade. This thread brings up an old idea that was pretty much disproven last season.

IndiansFan337
11-20-2010, 05:23 PM
One bad move can transform your franchise from perennial contender into a lottery team.

When the Suns acquired Steve Nash in 2004 they became one of the best teams in the league.

From 2004-08 the Suns finished with either the 1st or 2nd best record in the Western Conference.

If it aint broke don’t fix it, well apparently Steve Kerr never heard that expression.

In 2008, after 4 straight years of being an all-star, Marion wanted a contract extension. The Suns due to pay him 18mil in 2008 didn’t want to re-sign him for around that number, Marion like most people wasn’t looking to get a pay-cut. I could understand where the Suns are coming from though. How could they have Marion making $6mil more than Nash and $3mil more than Amare?

2004-08
Shawn Marion
18 PPG on 14 FG attempts and 10.6 RPG
Tim Duncan
19.5 PPG on 15 FG attempts and 11 RPG

If the Suns really didn’t want to pay Marion and were looking to get under the cap, we would have understood a salary dump.
But instead they trade Marion away so that they can pay Shaq $20 million a season?? This is ******** on so many levels:

Marion would have been cheaper and his numbers would have been just as good…
Shaq made 9 million more than Steve Nash…
Shaq made as much as Stoudemire and Barbosa combined…
Shaq made 5 million more than ten guys on the roster combined. Barbosa, Hill, Dragic, Lopez, Dudley, Tucker, Barnes, Amundson, Sims, and Dee Brown…


Shaq's from 2007-09
14.5 PPG on 10 FGA, 9 RPG, 1.6 APG
Marion from 2007-09
13.5 PPG on 12 FGA, 9 RPG, 2.2 APG

Also during that time:
Marion played in 201 games, Shaq played in 197.
Marion averaged $16.4 mil in salary, Shaq $20.3 mil.


When Phoenix traded away Marion for Shaq in 2008 it marked the begging of the end for them. They got so close in 2007, that Horry hip-check on Nash basically cost them a NBA championship. If they had just came back with the same team next year they would have had a great chance to get to the Finals.

Winning an NBA championship is like trying to hit on a chick that isn't really into you. Sometimes you gotta go through some trials and tribulations. But if you don’t give up, don’t give in, go to your breaking point, then a little farther, good things happen.
The Suns destroyed themselves by trading & selling away the majority of their draft picks during that same stretch. I believe they traded/sold picks that could have netted them the likes of Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo, etc.

ink
11-20-2010, 05:29 PM
The Suns destroyed themselves by trading & selling away the majority of their draft picks during that same stretch. I believe they traded/sold picks that could have netted them the likes of Luol Deng, Rajon Rondo, etc.

This.

And Sarver didn't help when he bought the team. His influence caused the team to go south long before 2008. Which is a testament to just how good the players were all during that stretch.

Hunter48MVP
11-20-2010, 06:01 PM
The trade didn't work out for both teams