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View Full Version : 2010 Roy Halladay vs. 2009 Tim Lincecum



d79cheese
11-16-2010, 03:21 PM
which cy young season was better?

Standard
2010 Halladay:
21-10, 250.2 IP, 2.44 ERA, 219 K's, 1.04 WHIP, 9 CG's, 4 shutouts

2009 Lincecum:
15-7, 225.1 IP, 2.48 ERA, 261 K's, 1.05 WHIP, 4 CG's, 2 shoutouts

Advanced
2010 Halladay:
3.35 tERA, 3.01 FIP/2.92 xFIP, 7.86 K/9, 1.08 BB/9, 7.30 K/BB, 6.6 WAR

2009 Lincecum:
2.60 tERA, 2.34 FIP/2.87 xFIP, 10.42 K/9, 2.72 BB/9, 3.84 K/BB, 8.2 WAR

Gigantes4Life
11-16-2010, 07:36 PM
I thought this said 2009 vs. 2010 Halladay.

Which reminds me of how ridiculously consistent he's been the past few years.

giants73756
11-16-2010, 11:40 PM
Who were the 2 shoutouts by Lincecum to?

d79cheese
11-17-2010, 12:30 AM
Who were the 2 shoutouts by Lincecum to?

cardinals and a's

Cheezombie
11-17-2010, 03:47 AM
cardinals and a's

:(

todu82
11-17-2010, 08:43 PM
Halladay

JAYZFAN9
11-18-2010, 08:30 PM
Look at that f'n K/BB ratio by doc. Outstanding

CAIN=FUTURE
11-20-2010, 03:14 AM
Timmy

Metsfan98
12-01-2010, 08:15 AM
I would have to go with Halladay.

F*(&"Next Year"
12-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Look at that f'n K/BB ratio by doc. Outstanding

+1

I like Lincecum alot more. That being said, I looked at the stats without paying attention to the names at first and it has to be halladay. 25 more IP, 5 more CG and 2 more SO. He posted better averages while pitching more.

Jeffy25
12-07-2010, 10:40 PM
I gave it to Timmy, but they are not separated by a lot.

And then I did more research, and I want to change my vote to Halladay.

Also, OP.

You have the incorrect WAR...you can't use fangraphs WAR for a number of reasons, and you especially can't use them for pitchers WAR, fangraphs doesn't account for runs allowed, something a pitcher certainly gains value for.

Doc had a 6.9 WAR in 2010
Timmy had a 6.3 in 2009

Doc edges out Timmy, and it's mainly because he simply didn't allow runs and didn't walk anybody.

What's funny, is how scary close Wainwright really was to each each season, when you dive deeper into their numbers, but he is edged out barely by each :(

makes me sad, if he didn't have Timmy last year, or Halladay this year, he could have two cy youngs :(

Jeffy25
12-07-2010, 10:41 PM
so when you are looking at the votes, take one from Timmy, and give it to Roy

d79cheese
12-07-2010, 11:00 PM
I gave it to Timmy, but they are not separated by a lot.

And then I did more research, and I want to change my vote to Halladay.

Also, OP.

You have the incorrect WAR...you can't use fangraphs WAR for a number of reasons, and you especially can't use them for pitchers WAR, fangraphs doesn't account for runs allowed, something a pitcher certainly gains value for.

Doc had a 6.9 WAR in 2010
Timmy had a 6.3 in 2009

Doc edges out Timmy, and it's mainly because he simply didn't allow runs and didn't walk anybody.

What's funny, is how scary close Wainwright really was to each each season, when you dive deeper into their numbers, but he is edged out barely by each :(

makes me sad, if he didn't have Timmy last year, or Halladay this year, he could have two cy youngs :(

Since making this thread I've come to realize that Fangraphs is not the best place to get WAR numbers (as well as several other stats). I see you have used B-R for getting your WAR numbers, but StatCorner gives Lincecum the edge at 8.4 to 7.0. I'm not quite sure which site is better, but I know both are better then Fangraphs.

Cheezombie
12-08-2010, 11:54 AM
B-R uses ERA for WAR, thus double counting defense. Fangraphs WAR > B-R

C1Bman88
12-08-2010, 02:16 PM
B-R uses ERA for WAR, thus double counting defense. Fangraphs WAR > B-R

B-R uses total runs allowed; not ERA.

I disagree about fWAR being better than rWAR, especially when it comes to pitchers. FIP is just lazy. Heck, even the way rWAR calculates position player value is more thorough than fWAR. The only real edge fWAR had was UZR, but that's not even a real upgrade over TZ.

Cheezombie
12-08-2010, 02:24 PM
Wouldn't FIP still be better than total runs allowed? That seems lazier than using FIP.

d79cheese
12-08-2010, 02:26 PM
B-R uses total runs allowed; not ERA.

I disagree about fWAR being better than rWAR, especially when it comes to pitchers. FIP is just lazy. Heck, even the way rWAR calculates position player value is more thorough than fWAR. The only real edge fWAR had was UZR, but that's not even a real upgrade over TZ.

C1B, I'm curious which site do you trust most with the way they calculate stats: Fangraphs, Baseball Reference, or StatCorner....or is there another site that you like more?

C1Bman88
12-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Wouldn't FIP still be better than total runs allowed? That seems lazier than using FIP.

rWAR makes an adjustment for the quality of defense behind the pitcher based on TotalZone. This way you coax out defense while still accounting for sequencing.

I should clarify what I mean by "lazy," sorry for not being more clear- FIP is a shorthand DIPS. FanGraphs carries a "true" DIPS in tERA, but for some reason they haven't made that switch. This is their justification:


If and when a new metric like tRA is proven to be significantly more effective in valuing pitchers (and Im hopeful that it will be, given more data exploration on the topic), we wont be standing here as guardians of the infallibility of FIP.

The thing is, it HAS been proven to be better, at least in terms of its predictive value- and it makes more sense logically to use for theoretical value calculations such as WAR because it takes into account the impact of the batted ball. FIP completely ignores this.


C1B, I'm curious which site do you trust most with the way they calculate stats: Fangraphs, Baseball Reference, or StatCorner....or is there another site that you like more?

I calculate it on my own- I disagree with the way the sites handle it.

Cheezombie
12-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Cool, didn't know it adjusted for defense using TZ. And yeah, it's bugged me that Fangraphs hasn't at least switched to xFIP or tERA especially when they have both available on their site.

Jeffy25
12-08-2010, 05:24 PM
I calculate it on my own- I disagree with the way the sites handle it.

Then what do you have for Halladay and Lincey?

C1Bman88
12-08-2010, 08:59 PM
Then what do you have for Halladay and Lincey?

The non-defense independent version has Halladay at 65 RAR and Lincecum at 83 RAR in their respective seasons. It didn't think Halladay's R/G was right (had him at around 3.49) and thought Lincecum "should" have allowed 60 runs rather than 69. Halladay must have been great at sequencing; his clutch score indicates that I'm likely underrating him some.

I'm still tweaking the defense-independent one; that's the one I'd pay more attention to. Don't know when it'll be finished.

Metsfan98
03-16-2011, 06:14 PM
2010 Roy Halladay.

Pinstripe pride
03-17-2011, 03:18 PM
roy halladay. theres something to be said about a guy who completely takes the bull pen out of the equation. i think that year he had more complete games than like 8 teams

shizzle09
03-21-2011, 02:47 AM
Timmy all day.

Madtown22
04-02-2011, 03:39 PM
if they swapped teams how would they fair? that will tell you who was better