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Dnovakovic099
11-11-2010, 07:24 PM
Rondo is an amazing point guard, but to say that he is an MVP candidate or a top three point guard is absurd IMO. Consider these stats:

PPG APG RPG FG% FT% Stl Blk

Rondo: 11.1 14.8 5.5 47 52.9 3.1 0.3
Nash: 18.7 8.9 3.6 48 88.9 0.9 0
Rose: 23.8 9.2 3.8 43.7 75 0.8 0.7
Westbrook: 22.6 7.9 6.3 43.9 90.5 2.1 0.6
Wall: 19.3 10.2 4.3 44.1 76.9 3.2 0.3

Now, I'm not saying Rondo isn't a great point guard, but from these stats you can clearly see that he isn't way better than all those guys. I actually believe his scoring makes him the fifth best point guard in the league, at best. Now for my real argument, I have seen so many people say that Rondo should be an MVP candidate if he keeps these stats up, and I have seen so many people say that Dwight is the front runner for MVP so lets look at these stats:

PPG APG RPG FG% FT% Stl Blk

Howard: 21.9 1.9 11 58.1 52.9 1.1 2.7
Noah: 15.7 2.2 15 51.5 76.5 1.0 2.2

I am not saying Noah is anywhere near Dwight's level, but saying Dwight and Rondo are both MVP candidates without including Noah and any of the other guards, especially Westbrook, is a contradictory statement. I don't know anything about advanced stats so if an expert can come in here and prove me otherwise then I might be completely wrong, but to me it seems absurd that Rondo gets talked about so much because Noah's defense is just as good, he scores almost 5 ppg more, and he shoots at a higher free throw percentage and field goal percentage. The only advantage that Rondo has is when you combine RPG and APG Rondo has 20.3 and Noah has 17.2. I think when compared these two players are even and that is why I think that Rondo should not be praised this much.

tcav701
11-11-2010, 07:30 PM
I hear what you are saying but you gotta keep in mind that the Celtics are more than likely going to have a better record than the teams of all other PGs listed.

The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as Rondo is CP3.

xbrackattackx
11-11-2010, 07:33 PM
And I am guessing OP is a bulls fan...weird hunch.


Rondo isn't great because of stats, It's what he brings to the team he is on. He is made to be a point guard for a team where he is not the main scorer, But he can be if he needs to be.

John Walls Era
11-11-2010, 07:34 PM
14.8 assists is way better than what everyone else has. Having about 5 assists more per game is huge.

WadeKobe
11-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Rondo is an amazing point guard, but to say that he is an MVP candidate or a top three point guard is absurd IMO. Consider these stats:

PPG APG RPG FG% FT% Stl Blk

Rondo: 11.1 14.8 5.5 47 52.9 3.1 0.3
Nash: 18.7 8.9 3.6 48 88.9 0.9 0
Rose: 23.8 9.2 3.8 43.7 75 0.8 0.7
Westbrook: 22.6 7.9 6.3 43.9 90.5 2.1 0.6
Wall: 19.3 10.2 4.3 44.1 76.9 3.2 0.3

Now, I'm not saying Rondo isn't a great point guard, but from these stats you can clearly see that he isn't way better than all those guys. I actually believe his scoring makes him the fifth best point guard in the league, at best. Now for my real argument, I have seen so many people say that Rondo should be an MVP candidate if he keeps these stats up, and I have seen so many people say that Dwight is the front runner for MVP so lets look at these stats:

PPG APG RPG FG% FT% Stl Blk

Howard: 21.9 1.9 11 58.1 52.9 1.1 2.7
Noah: 15.7 2.2 15 51.5 76.5 1.0 2.2

I am not saying Noah is anywhere near Dwight's level, but saying Dwight and Rondo are both MVP candidates without including Noah and any of the other guards, especially Westbrook, is a contradictory statement. I don't know anything about advanced stats so if an expert can come in here and prove me otherwise then I might be completely wrong, but to me it seems absurd that Rondo gets talked about so much because Noah's defense is just as good, he scores almost 5 ppg more, and he shoots at a higher free throw percentage and field goal percentage. The only advantage that Rondo has is when you combine RPG and APG Rondo has 20.3 and Noah has 17.2. I think when compared these two players are even and that is why I think that Rondo should not be praised this much.

I have no problem with the Rondo love. He has proven he is a top 5 PG and probably #3. He has the ability to change a game with his passing and driving abilities. His play directly effects wins. That's a big deal for an MVP candidate.

However, I would agree that Noah needs to be included in the conversation. I don't think he's at the same level, but he's certainly a DPOY candidate. He's been my pick to win DPOY since before the season began. I think Noah gets nowhere near enough love. I think he's beyond any doubt a top 3 interior defender in the league and 2nd at the Center position only to Dwight.

redsox0717
11-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Wow, a Bulls homer that doesn't like Rondo. I for one am shocked.

DoMeFavors
11-11-2010, 07:37 PM
He is probably the second best PG in the NBA behind Chris Paul, he is the next Jason Kidd but in his own way.

Avenged
11-11-2010, 07:47 PM
Rondo is a top 5 point guard in the league and is moving up on top of the ranks.

What has Rondo being considered for MVP so early in the season is mainly due to 1. defense and 2. assists. He's averaging a crazy 14 assists and doing it at a higher percentage than the best point guard in the league right now; Chris Paul.

Avenged
11-11-2010, 07:50 PM
I hear what you are saying but you gotta keep in mind that the Celtics are more than likely going to have a better record than the teams of all other PGs listed.

The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as Rondo is CP3.

Not really.. Chris Paul is just on another level than any other point guard in the league. Aside from assists, CP3 has Rondo beat in pretty much everything.

bagwell368
11-11-2010, 07:54 PM
Rondo is an amazing point guard, but to say that he is an MVP candidate or a top three point guard is absurd IMO. Consider these stats:

PPG APG RPG FG% FT% Stl Blk


Rondo: 11.1 14.8 5.5 47 52.9 3.1 0.3
Nash: 18.7 8.9 3.6 48 88.9 0.9 0
Rose: 23.8 9.2 3.8 43.7 75 0.8 0.7
Westbrook: 22.6 7.9 6.3 43.9 90.5 2.1 0.6
Wall: 19.3 10.2 4.3 44.1 76.9 3.2 0.3

Now, I'm not saying Rondo isn't a great point guard, but from these stats you can clearly see that he isn't way better than all those guys. I actually believe his scoring makes him the fifth best point guard in the league, at best. .

It helps to line up your columns, see how.

I have some numbers for you:

WS: win shares: Rondo 11th in the league
DWS: defensive win shares: 1st in the league
ASG: assists per game and total assists: 1st
SPG: steals per game and steals total: 2nd

MVP? No. Between 11-20th best player in the league - yeah.

Nash is pathetic, he's been dropping like a stone since '06-'07 and is one of the worst defenders in the league.

Westbrook is developing, but is a horrid shooter, and a poor defender, he doesn't belong on this list either.

Wall is very interesting but he hasn't done anything yet, or been faced with anything yet. He has no business on this list either. I didn't see any special intensity on defense either.

Rose? Another guy you choose who is meh on defense. The issue here is what does your team need? A slick shooting 1/2 tweener? Rose is the guy. An assist machine, who grabs rebounds, gets steals, and runs a vet team, and is now the co-best player on the team? Rondo.

tcav701
11-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Not really.. Chris Paul is just on another level than any other point guard in the league. Aside from assists, CP3 has Rondo beat in pretty much everything.

So you are agreeing with me.

I have CP3 ahead of Rondo on my MVP list.

Avenged
11-11-2010, 08:01 PM
So you are agreeing with me.

I have CP3 ahead of Rondo on my MVP list.

Not necessarily, unless you worded your sentence wrong.

CP3 is on another level, and no point guard is really on his. Not Rondo, not Nash, not Deron, not anyone.

I have CP3 ahead of everyone on my MVP list.

tcav701
11-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Not necessarily, unless you worded your sentence wrong.

CP3 is on another level, and no point guard i really on his. Not Rondo, not Nash, not Deron, not anyone.

I have CP3 ahead of everyone on my MVP list.

I meant that CP3 was the only PG right now that can be placed higher than Rondo.

My list right now goes

1 Dwight
2 CP3
3 Gasol
4a. Kobe
4b. Rondo

haggis
11-11-2010, 08:05 PM
I meant that CP3 was the only PG right now that can be placed higher than Rondo.

My list right now goes
1 Scalabrine
2 Dwight
3 CP3
4 Gasol
5a. Kobe
6b. Rondo

fix'd ;)

hugepatsfan
11-11-2010, 08:07 PM
He is probably the second best PG in the NBA behind Chris Paul, he is the next Jason Kidd but in his own way.

Deron Williams says hi.

smith&wesson
11-11-2010, 08:22 PM
14.8 assists so far is pretty dam impressive. and i dont even like rondo. but respek where its due.

ragee
11-11-2010, 08:23 PM
I hear what you are saying but you gotta keep in mind that the Celtics are more than likely going to have a better record than the teams of all other PGs listed.

The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as Rondo is CP3.

Rondo is nowhere near CP3... The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as CP3 is D-Will...

tcav701
11-11-2010, 08:25 PM
Rondo is nowhere near CP3... The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as CP3 is D-Will...

This thread is about MVP candidates and not talent.

Rondo and CP3 are the only MVP candidates right now at the PG spot. I am not ready to say Rondo is a better player than DWill.

Read the thread title/OP bro.

kswissdaf
11-11-2010, 08:27 PM
Rondo is amazing "Role player" he cant carry a team but he is amazing at what he does. which is being the floor general

northsider
11-11-2010, 08:34 PM
Rondo is amazing "Role player" he cant carry a team but he is amazing at what he does. which is being the floor general

I agree completely except I would use the word facilitator(don't know about the spelling). The one thing everyone keeps bringing up is his great assists numbers over and over again which I believe are more a product of his team then his overall talent. Couldn't you easily say a assist is a team based stat as much as it is a player finding the best shooting situation shot. The better shooters you have the more assist opportunities you have.

The one thing you can't question about Rondo is his hustle and defense as well as how well he is utilizing his team around him but, the rest of his game is nothing holy **** worthy. Is he even discussed this much if his team isn't the Celtics.

hugepatsfan
11-11-2010, 08:49 PM
I agree completely except I would use the word facilitator(don't know about the spelling). The one thing everyone keeps bringing up is his great assists numbers over and over again which I believe are more a product of his team then his overall talent. Couldn't you easily say a assist is a team based stat as much as it is a player finding the best shooting situation shot. The better shooters you have the more assist opportunities you have.

The one thing you can't question about Rondo is his hustle and defense as well as how well he is utilizing his team around him but, the rest of his game is nothing holy **** worthy. Is he even discussed this much if his team isn't the Celtics.

I understand this, but I don't think its fair to Rondo.

Against OKC Rondo was on a fast break. He looked like he was going up for a layup. But then he turned around and passed to Ray w/out. But he didn't look until he made the pass. He instinctually felt where his guy was. That's what is so impressive about Rondo for me - his awesome BB IQ and feel for the game. Whether Ray made the shot or not (he did) doesn't change how good of a play it was in my mind by Rondo.

Rondo's #s may go down when the big 3 leave (his assists will - I bet his points go up), but that will not change his feel for the game and great instincts. I just hope people realize that when that day comes.

northsider
11-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I understand this, but I don't think its fair to Rondo.

Against OKC Rondo was on a fast break. He looked like he was going up for a layup. But then he turned around and passed to Ray w/out. But he didn't look until he made the pass. He instinctually felt where his guy was. That's what is so impressive about Rondo for me - his awesome BB IQ and feel for the game. Whether Ray made the shot or not (he did) doesn't change how good of a play it was in my mind by Rondo.

Rondo's #s may go down when the big 3 leave (his assists will - I bet his points go up), but that will not change his feel for the game and great instincts. I just hope people realize that when that day comes.

I don't want my comment to look like I am hating cause what I appreciate about Rondo is he plays the PG position like it is supposed to be played. I think if you were to define a PG he would be a great example. He will get his day to show that he was the reason and not the example of a great system.

HouRealCoach
11-11-2010, 09:39 PM
I hear what you are saying but you gotta keep in mind that the Celtics are more than likely going to have a better record than the teams of all other PGs listed.

The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as Rondo is CP3.

Deron Williams? 21, 10, 5 Beating Top Teams

samevans7
11-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Im a huge Celtics fan. And as of now, Rondo is the 3rd best PG. Now, if he developed a consistent jumper, and shot like 80% or better from the line, you can make the argument that he is the best PG. But as of now, CP3 and DWill are better.

Yet, Rondo is still very good, and the teams and players know it. Thats why now when Boston is on offense, LeBron is guarding Rondo

Super.
11-12-2010, 12:29 AM
Stocktonian

Hiphopopotamus
11-12-2010, 12:53 AM
Rondo is odd, man. Anybody who downplays him, obviously doesn't watch him much. He really is impressive. But that being said for all he does well, his lack of scoring is a liability. The fact that he can't shoot free throws and thus boston can't keep the ball in his hands at the end of games is a huge liability. I live in the celtic viewing area (one hour north of boston) and like Rondo alot, obviously as a dynamic defender and creator. But just such a strange dynamic in his game. He can definitely dominate a game without scoring which is a rare talent (see Rodman w his elite D and rebounding for example). But I want my PG to be able to knock down an open 15 footer and hit FTs at 80% plus. The PG doesn't have to score 20, but he has to not be a liability. I prefer Paul and Rose to Rondo, but still like Rondo very much.

spartanbear
11-12-2010, 01:13 AM
Rondo is odd, man. Anybody who downplays him, obviously doesn't watch him much. He really is impressive. But that being said for all he does well, his lack of scoring is a liability. The fact that he can't shoot free throws and thus boston can't keep the ball in his hands at the end of games is a huge liability. I live in the celtic viewing area (one hour north of boston) and like Rondo alot, obviously as a dynamic defender and creator. But just such a strange dynamic in his game. He can definitely dominate a game without scoring which is a rare talent (see Rodman w his elite D and rebounding for example). But I want my PG to be able to knock down an open 15 footer and hit FTs at 80% plus. The PG doesn't have to score 20, but he has to not be a liability. I prefer Paul and Rose to Rondo, but still like Rondo very much.

This. I like Rondo as well. (Bulls fan here with some Rondo love) :hide: but his inability to score is painful to watch at times. Particularly down the stretch in tight games.

PurpleJesus28
11-12-2010, 01:48 AM
i respect rondos game. from some of the games ive seen of him though, i feel like his assist numbers are a little inflated. so many times i see him drive to the lane and unnecessarily dish it to someone trailing behind him or next to him when he could easily go up for the lay-up. dont get me wrong, he makes great plays alotta the time but i kinda think hes a product of the team hes on. if he wasnt on a team with 3 other players who could put up 20 a night easily, he wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers he has now. hes a great facilitator, but he cant put up the points CP3, D-Will, or Rose can. i wouldn't feel confident in him being the focal point of my team and having to carry it.

for the record, i hate rondo. mainly b/c he thinks its ok to punch brad miller and throw kirk hinrich into the scoring table and then back up like a little ****** when captain kirk goes at him.

hate him, absolutely hate him, but respect his game.

Mplsman
11-12-2010, 02:31 AM
Rondo is doing it big so far.

checkit
11-12-2010, 02:39 AM
Rondo is doing it big so far.

This

chicago lulz
11-12-2010, 02:45 AM
i respect rondos game. from some of the games ive seen of him though, i feel like his assist numbers are a little inflated. so many times i see him drive to the lane and unnecessarily dish it to someone trailing behind him or next to him when he could easily go up for the lay-up. dont get me wrong, he makes great plays alotta the time but i kinda think hes a product of the team hes on. if he wasnt on a team with 3 other players who could put up 20 a night easily, he wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers he has now. hes a great facilitator, but he cant put up the points CP3, D-Will, or Rose can. i wouldn't feel confident in him being the focal point of my team and having to carry it.

for the record, i hate rondo. mainly b/c he thinks its ok to punch brad miller and throw kirk hinrich into the scoring table and then back up like a little ****** when captain kirk goes at him.

hate him, absolutely hate him, but respect his game.

I feel like the bold is kind of irrelevant to inflating stats. He's just 'dishing the rock'. In all honesty, I think he's above 'role player' as someone's mentioned. He's definitely a facilitator, and his passing abilities is what allow's for Boston's success. I believe he's important to the team. Just as the team is important to him (stats wise, for those who believe it is the 3 stars that make his stats). He is a solid player, and he can make a run for MVP depending on how the rest of the season goes. Regardless, the kid has talent.

And I absolutely hate him.

Dnovakovic099
11-12-2010, 03:24 AM
After watching parts of tonights game, I have to say I was right and wrong. Rondo is an absolute beast at passing. Yes, the big three help, but the dude can pass the rock. That being said I still don't know if he is an MVP candidate. I watch the Bulls without Rose and the Lakers without Bryant and those teams are lost out there. When the Nate Robinson goes out there the Celtics are still good. However, if the Celtics win 65+ games and Rondo maintains assists then maybe he should win the MVP award. The award should be given to a guy who works hard to perfect his role over a better and more important player to his team for one reason because the most important player to their team never wins it. So I rather have a Rondo type winning it than an inflated stat guy on a slightly above average team such as Durant winning it.

JayW_1023
11-12-2010, 05:43 AM
He always does somethin crazy on the floor...part of what makes him my favorite player to watch in the NBA. Him and Manu.

hard_candy
11-12-2010, 05:49 AM
He always does somethin crazy on the floor...part of what makes him my favorite player to watch in the NBA. Him and Manu.

Great comparison, actually. Both carry the torch of Sarunas Marciulonis.

Now, if only Rondo had a "j"...

SeoulBeatz
11-12-2010, 07:22 AM
I think he could easily be an mvp candidate and he is def a top 3 point guard at this point.

he's playing extremely efficient basketball and doing everything right for THIS team.

I doubt he would have the same success if he were to be a main scorer on another roster but he is perfect for the Celts. He doesn't need to shoot so he can exploit the hell out of his amazing passing ability and court vision.

FarOutIos
11-12-2010, 07:58 AM
Compared to other PGs, Paul, Williams and Westbrook should definitely be on the same list as Rondo. Rondo is getting many more assists right now, but I think that is also a statement of the type of team they have right now. Their offense helps him get the assists and does not rely on his scoring as much.

Also, his FT % is horrible. Just horrible. How can a PG be considered for an MVP candidate with such a terrible %. IMO, he can't. There should be a lot more hacking going on to exploit this weakness.

Evolution23
11-12-2010, 10:39 AM
wheres CP3? U fail!

Rivera
11-12-2010, 10:59 AM
Rondo IS a top 5 point guard

rondo doesnt have to score bc of the pieces around him

BUT DONT GET IT TWISTED if u guys remember when KG got hurt who picked up his scoring??? ROndo Rondo was nearly averagin 18 to 20 when KG got hurt and in the playoffss that yr (that was the amazin 1st round vs bulls) Rondo was averagin abt 20 and 10 in those playoffs

to say rondo cant carry a team is absurd he just doesnt have to at the moment because he has a great team....the Cs look re juvinated this yr and its actually fun to watch

jim51990
11-12-2010, 11:09 AM
as far as pgs i think its looks like this ( cp3, d-will) top tier. then a small gap to rondo then a large gap to the rest (westbrook,nash,rose, ect)

i no longer get the its because of his player i think its more rondo makes them better honestly besides pierce and rondo i dont think any other celtics player is any better then average. if it wasnt fro rondo kg and ray would be no better then average at best

mikantsass
11-12-2010, 11:31 AM
Why do Bulls fans have to constantly jam Bulls players down our throats, while taking jabs at Celtics players?

Deal with it, the Bulls arent going anywhere.

NickyNick
11-12-2010, 02:22 PM
he doesnt need to score for the celtics, and when it comes down to it if your trying to make a championship run i'd rather have a PG like Rondo over everyone else not named Chris Paul......thats what makes him in the running for MVP to me...stats alone dont win you anything. The definition of valuable doesnt mean who has the best stats, Rondo is cleary the most valuable PG out there to make a complete team. Besides the stats he's always diving on the floor for loose balls, hustling, everything.

balla4life22
11-12-2010, 02:29 PM
i hate it when people say rondo cant score. He's never HAD to score in bunches. KG missed a lot of time last year and the year before and Rondo was averaging around 20 points a game. And for those of you who say rondos assists are inflated because he plays with the big 3, then why doesnt miami's pg and the lakers pg average assists like rondo? There are a couple teams out there that have just as much talent as the celtics and their pgs aren't nearly as good as rondo. Id say hes a top 3 pg right now, cause he gives the game whatever it needs.

Mopped_you
11-12-2010, 02:32 PM
Rondo is amazing. End of story. Nobody should even attempt to downplay his game, he has it all. The assists he racks up night in and night out is unbelievable, it seems like he has about 16 assists every game. He's a great complimentary piece to Pierce,Allen, and Garnett.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2010, 02:35 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=paulch01&y1=2011&p2=willide01&y2=2011&p3=rondora01&y3=2011&p4=westbru01&y4=2011

statistically, these have probably been the top 4 PG's in the NBA this season. Wall, Curry, Devin Harris, Nash, and Rose should also get some mention here as well, but are not playing like the compared 4 listed so far.

Rondo has been probably the #3 PG so far.
Paul
Williams
Rondo
Westbrook

Those are the top 4 PG's for this season imo. I think Rondo gets too much love on PSD, but I don't think he gets enough love in the general media. Sure he is in the PERFECT surroundings to flourish, but he is easily one of the top floor generals, and totally disruptive on the defensive end. His shortcomings keep him out of the conversation for best at his position, but he no doubt deserves recognition as a big game player who is a gifted PG at this stage of his career

mikantsass
11-12-2010, 02:37 PM
^^^ Well said by the Wolves fan

Cool007
11-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Wow, a Bulls homer that doesn't like Rondo. I for one am shocked.


Don't just assume he is a Bulls fan, let alone a homer.

Anyway, as a Bulls fan, I think Rondo is playing AMAZING. He is so perfect for that team. I also love his competitiveness and win at any cost attitude.

:clap:

Tony_Starks
11-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Rondo gets love but his jumper is still broker than MC HAmmer.......

MrFastBreak
11-12-2010, 06:43 PM
I agree completely except I would use the word facilitator(don't know about the spelling). The one thing everyone keeps bringing up is his great assists numbers over and over again which I believe are more a product of his team then his overall talent. Couldn't you easily say a assist is a team based stat as much as it is a player finding the best shooting situation shot. The better shooters you have the more assist opportunities you have.

The one thing you can't question about Rondo is his hustle and defense as well as how well he is utilizing his team around him but, the rest of his game is nothing holy **** worthy. Is he even discussed this much if his team isn't the Celtics.

That's absolutely untrue. It's a cliche how people claim how the Big3 are the only reason he has so many assists. He's just THAT good at getting his teammates good looks it has nothing to do with the squad around him. Dont buy that? Take Andre Miller in 01-02 for example, that season he lead the league in assists on a team that went 29-53. Still believe high assist #'s are a product of teammates?

That being said, Rondo's still not all that good on offense let alone scoring. His TS% and eFG% both lie in the 40 percentile and having high turnovers on low usage is problematic.

Tony_Starks
11-12-2010, 06:57 PM
That's absolutely untrue. It's a cliche how people claim how the Big3 are the only reason he has so many assists. He's just THAT good at getting his teammates good looks it has nothing to do with the squad around him. Dont buy that? Take Andre Miller in 01-02 for example, that season he lead the league in assists on a team that went 29-53. Still believe high assist #'s are a product of teammates?
That being said, Rondo's still not all that good on offense let alone scoring. His TS% and eFG% both lie in the 40 percentile and having high turnovers on low usage is problematic.


Um hate to break it to ya but he had Elton Brand and Lamar Odom on that team buddy.... amongst others. Try again.

MrFastBreak
11-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Um hate to break it to ya but he had Elton Brand and Lamar Odom on that team buddy.... amongst others. Try again.
How about getting your facts right before posting. Im specifically referring to the 2001-02 Cleveland Cavaliers (look em up) and Dre lead the league in assists that year. Now YOU try again

Tony_Starks
11-12-2010, 07:54 PM
How about getting your facts right before posting. Im specifically referring to the 2001-02 Cleveland Cavaliers (look em up) and Dre lead the league in assists that year. Now YOU try again



I stand corrected sir.

Sly Guy
11-12-2010, 08:12 PM
Rondo gets love but his jumper is still broker than MC HAmmer.......

this.

I have a grudging respect for Rondo. I have never been a fan of him since he got that little bit of KG in him by talking all that junk to D-Rose a few years back [no I'm not a Chi-fan]. But his ability is undeniable, but how many years does it take to get a jumper? Seriously. He's good, but he could be great.

Tblaze
11-12-2010, 11:14 PM
14.9 assists/game.............nuff said

David_Stern
11-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.

AIRMAR72
11-13-2010, 02:26 AM
Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.
even though derron williams and chris paul better at scoring rando WILL and his effort are unmatch so i agree

TehSamurai
11-13-2010, 09:25 AM
Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.

Nope.

FadeAwayLikeMJ
11-13-2010, 10:57 AM
if Rondo's assists are only because of the "Big 3"...

then Arroyo should be averaging 25 assists/game

just sayin...

JayW_1023
11-13-2010, 11:11 AM
Pierce scores most of his points in one on one situations and KG and Sugar Ray nowadays are nothing more than jump shooters at their respective positions. Damn straight Rondo deserves credit for his dimage, because offensively there are much more gifted supporting casts in the league.

nitric
11-13-2010, 02:16 PM
Pierce scores most of his points in one on one situations and KG and Sugar Ray nowadays are nothing more than jump shooters at their respective positions. Damn straight Rondo deserves credit for his dimage, because offensively there are much more gifted supporting casts in the league.

Which team has a 3 point specialist at the 2, a great mid range shooter and slasher at the 3 and a post up and pick n pop machine at the 4?

checkit
11-13-2010, 03:18 PM
if Rondo's assists are only because of the "Big 3"...

then Arroyo should be averaging 25 assists/game

just sayin...

exactly...which is why I am never (and never will be) sold on this argument.

Mavrix
11-13-2010, 08:55 PM
Stats only go so far.

69centers
11-14-2010, 09:44 AM
Another 17 assists last night to put him at 15.1 APG for the year now.

Since assists are equal to at least 2 points, Rondo is averaging 10 more points in offensive output than any other point guard, in the assist category.

Rondo 10.8 PPG + 15 APG = 40.8 PPG offensive output
CP3 17 PPG + 10 APG = 37 PPG offensive output
Williams 21.3 PPG + 10 APG = 41.3 PPG offensive output

And I'm sure if you add up how many of Rondo's assists are for Ray Allen 3's, he's probably edging out Williams.

As you can see, both Williams and Rondo have a better offensive output than CP3. With Rondo being just as much of an offensive performer as Williams, and the better defender, I give him the edge over Williams. Rondo is also a better defender than Paul. While both Williams and CP3 have the better offensive skills than Rondo, I feel Rondo does the most for his team.

avrpatsfan
11-14-2010, 10:30 AM
I hear what you are saying but you gotta keep in mind that the Celtics are more than likely going to have a better record than the teams of all other PGs listed.

The only PG this year that can be used in the same sentence as Rondo is CP3.
And Deron.

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 10:31 AM
Another 17 assists last night to put him at 15.1 APG for the year now.

Since assists are equal to at least 2 points, Rondo is averaging 10 more points in offensive output than any other point guard, in the assist category.

Rondo 10.8 PPG + 15 APG = 40.8 PPG offensive output
CP3 17 PPG + 10 APG = 37 PPG offensive output
Williams 21.3 PPG + 10 APG = 41.3 PPG offensive output

And I'm sure if you add up how many of Rondo's assists are for Ray Allen 3's, he's probably edging out Williams.

As you can see, both Williams and Rondo have a better offensive output than CP3. With Rondo being just as much of an offensive performer as Williams, and the better defender, I give him the edge over Williams. Rondo is also a better defender than Paul. While both Williams and CP3 have the better offensive skills than Rondo, I feel Rondo does the most for his team.

This year Rondo has been better than Williams and he is comparable to CP3 based on the (great) stats you posted. But if we're talking in terms of rankings, CP3 and D-Will are far and away the 2 best PGs in the NBA. Then Rose/Rondo/Westbrook take the next 3 spots in some order. Then Billups and Nash fill the next 2 spots. Then some of the young guys who are not as established as those other 3 young guys round out the top 10:

CP3
D-Will
Rondo
Rose
Westbrook
Nash
Billups
S Curry
Tyreke Evans (not a true PG, but the talent is undeniable)
Aaron Brooks (very underated player IMO)

That's my top 10.

Nighthawk
11-14-2010, 10:37 AM
OP is just Another case of someone looking at ESPN stats and not watching games or tape. Rondo could score 0 points and still be the best player on the court. He controls tempo and mood the whole game. Court vision is exceptional.True PG.. Runs the offense and always thinks pass first. Always finds the open guy. On defense hes a pest. Boards, steals, you name it he does it. He isnt MVP candidate. On my top 10 list he'd be 5 or 6 right now. But hes the C's MVP and thats all i really give a rats *** about anyways

Cap'nCrunch40
11-14-2010, 11:02 AM
An assist machine, who grabs rebounds, gets steals, and runs a vet team, and is now the co-best player on the team? Rondo.

This. Rondo is amazing.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 11:09 AM
Another 17 assists last night to put him at 15.1 APG for the year now.

Since assists are equal to at least 2 points, Rondo is averaging 10 more points in offensive output than any other point guard, in the assist category.

Rondo 10.8 PPG + 15 APG = 40.8 PPG offensive output
CP3 17 PPG + 10 APG = 37 PPG offensive output
Williams 21.3 PPG + 10 APG = 41.3 PPG offensive output

And I'm sure if you add up how many of Rondo's assists are for Ray Allen 3's, he's probably edging out Williams.

As you can see, both Williams and Rondo have a better offensive output than CP3. With Rondo being just as much of an offensive performer as Williams, and the better defender, I give him the edge over Williams. Rondo is also a better defender than Paul. While both Williams and CP3 have the better offensive skills than Rondo, I feel Rondo does the most for his team.

what the hell kind of stat is this? Are you just adding up their points, and assuming all their assists lead to 2 points? That is so inaccurate I can't even begin to explain.
Look at their offensive ratings. Paul is taking a dump on everyone.

I love it when someone just makes up a stat to show their guy. When there are countless stats out there with real meaning showing otherwise. I don't mean to come after you on this, I actually agree with you much of the time, but Rondo plays a ton of minutes, turns it over at twice the rate Paul does (this takes away possessions, and that is bad for the offense), and his scoring efficiency is so subpar to Paul or Williams, it isnt even funny. Rondo has had a great year distributing the ball. But his complete incompetence scoring the ball, and his turning the ball over 1/4 possessions he is involved in, keeps his offensive rate right where it always has been. Not so great.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 11:11 AM
This year Rondo has been better than Williams and he is comparable to CP3 based on the (great) stats you posted. But if we're talking in terms of rankings, CP3 and D-Will are far and away the 2 best PGs in the NBA. Then Rose/Rondo/Westbrook take the next 3 spots in some order. Then Billups and Nash fill the next 2 spots. Then some of the young guys who are not as established as those other 3 young guys round out the top 10:

CP3
D-Will
Rondo
Rose
Westbrook
Nash
Billups
S Curry
Tyreke Evans (not a true PG, but the talent is undeniable)
Aaron Brooks (very underated player IMO)

That's my top 10.

I have Westbrook and Rose swapped currently, but this looks pretty right on for what I expect over the year. Something in me tells me Deron may drop a bit, but its only a personal hunch. I have no explanation for it but speculation.

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 01:41 PM
I have Westbrook and Rose swapped currently, but this looks pretty right on for what I expect over the year. Something in me tells me Deron may drop a bit, but its only a personal hunch. I have no explanation for it but speculation.

How can Deron fall? Maybe as a player, but I don't see any other PG ready to supplant him in the rankings. I think he is pretty far ahead of the rest of the PGs. Even if he declines as a player, he will still probably be #2 IMO.

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 01:43 PM
what the hell kind of stat is this? Are you just adding up their points, and assuming all their assists lead to 2 points? That is so inaccurate I can't even begin to explain.
Look at their offensive ratings. Paul is taking a dump on everyone.

I love it when someone just makes up a stat to show their guy. When there are countless stats out there with real meaning showing otherwise. I don't mean to come after you on this, I actually agree with you much of the time, but Rondo plays a ton of minutes, turns it over at twice the rate Paul does (this takes away possessions, and that is bad for the offense), and his scoring efficiency is so subpar to Paul or Williams, it isnt even funny. Rondo has had a great year distributing the ball. But his complete incompetence scoring the ball, and his turning the ball over 1/4 possessions he is involved in, keeps his offensive rate right where it always has been. Not so great.

I think he could be shotting better. I've seen him give up a lot of layups to feed a big or to give Ray a 3. I think that also explains his TO problem. He would be a much better player if he looked to score more. A lot of his TOs come from stupid passes when he has a layup. Rondo's biggest fault (other than his shooting) is that he is pass first to too much of an extreme.

Hustlenomics
11-14-2010, 01:52 PM
^yep his turnovers come from when he gets too pass happy ..those who watch him play would know that

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 01:56 PM
I think he could be shotting better. I've seen him give up a lot of layups to feed a big or to give Ray a 3. I think that also explains his TO problem. He would be a much better player if he looked to score more. A lot of his TOs come from stupid passes when he has a layup. Rondo's biggest fault (other than his shooting) is that he is pass first to too much of an extreme.

I agree with all of this. But that is why its called decision making.

KnicksorBust
11-14-2010, 01:56 PM
I'll tell you what, Paul and Deron might be more talented than Rondo but if I'm the Celtics he's the perfect fit for their team. He's a bulldog and he has no problem scoring 11ppg while everyone else gets their touches.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 01:57 PM
How can Deron fall? Maybe as a player, but I don't see any other PG ready to supplant him in the rankings. I think he is pretty far ahead of the rest of the PGs. Even if he declines as a player, he will still probably be #2 IMO.

like I said, I am basing off pure speculation after watching him this year. I have no argument for it at this stage of the season

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 01:59 PM
I'll tell you what, Paul and Deron might be more talented than Rondo but if I'm the Celtics he's the perfect fit for their team. He's a bulldog and he has no problem scoring 11ppg while everyone else gets their touches.

I think Paul would fit any offense, any style. Rondo does have the perfect system for his skillset/weaknesses, no doubt

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 02:11 PM
I agree with all of this. But that is why its called decision making.

I think he will get better w/ this as his team becomes worse, believe it or not. When he is no longer surrounded by aging but still good players, I think he will stop overpassing as much and just go up for the lay in.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 02:20 PM
I think he will get better w/ this as his team becomes worse, believe it or not. When he is no longer surrounded by aging but still good players, I think he will stop overpassing as much and just go up for the lay in.

probably right

sargon21
11-14-2010, 02:33 PM
i find it very hard to judge rondo as a player atm

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 02:36 PM
i find it very hard to judge rondo as a player atm

Was it hard to judge Nash during his first MVP year when he had Joe Johnson, a prime Shawn Marion, and Amare Stoudemire to pass to? The offensive talent on that team was better than BOS's now but people were not saying the same things about Nash. Great passers are great passers. Period.

FadeAwayLikeMJ
11-14-2010, 02:43 PM
OP is just Another case of someone looking at ESPN stats and not watching games or tape. Rondo could score 0 points and still be the best player on the court. He controls tempo and mood the whole game. Court vision is exceptional.True PG.. Runs the offense and always thinks pass first. Always finds the open guy. On defense hes a pest. Boards, steals, you name it he does it. He isnt MVP candidate. On my top 10 list he'd be 5 or 6 right now. But hes the C's MVP and thats all i really give a rats *** about anyways

:clap:

/thread

Hustlenomics
11-14-2010, 02:43 PM
Was it hard to judge Nash during his first MVP year when he had Joe Johnson, a prime Shawn Marion, and Amare Stoudemire to pass to? The offensive talent on that team was better than BOS's now but people were not saying the same things about Nash. Great passers are great passers. Period.

:clap:

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 02:52 PM
Was it hard to judge Nash during his first MVP year when he had Joe Johnson, a prime Shawn Marion, and Amare Stoudemire to pass to? The offensive talent on that team was better than BOS's now but people were not saying the same things about Nash. Great passers are great passers. Period.

you can't think Nash deserved either MVP though. Not if you understand basketball. He was great those two years, but at no time has Nash ever been the best player in the NBA.
But that alone shows the flaw of the MVP award.

redsox0717
11-14-2010, 02:57 PM
you can't think Nash deserved either MVP though. Not if you understand basketball. He was great those two years, but at no time has Nash ever been the best player in the NBA.
But that alone shows the flaw of the MVP award.

Since when does the MVP = best player in the NBA? It is awarded to who is most valuable to the success of their team. Take Nash away from those teams, and you get a mediocre team. Same with Rondo.

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 02:58 PM
you can't think Nash deserved either MVP though. Not if you understand basketball. He was great those two years, but at no time has Nash ever been the best player in the NBA.
But that alone shows the flaw of the MVP award.

I know I didn't agree w/ either of Nash's MVP. I can't remember, but I think I had Shaq over Nash for his 1st and Kobe over Nash for his 2nd.

My point wasn't that Rondo is the MVP. I've seen people say that we don't know how good of a passer Rondo really is because he plays w/ great teamtes. That's bull. Rondo has great court vision and has a great ability to create for others. He definately has a high basketball IQ. That doesn't have **** to do w/ his teamates. Those are individual skills. Rondo's passes are great - it doesn't matter whether the shot goes in or not. A great pass is a great pass, whether the guys makes or misses it. We don't need to wait until Rondo is on a rebuilding team to confirm that he is a great offensive "quarterback."

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Since when does the MVP = best player in the NBA? It is awarded to who is most valuable to the success of their team. Take Nash away from those teams, and you get a mediocre team. Same with Rondo.

um, that can be said of the best player in the league as well. Take the best player off whatever team they are on, and they suffer

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 03:29 PM
I know I didn't agree w/ either of Nash's MVP. I can't remember, but I think I had Shaq over Nash for his 1st and Kobe over Nash for his 2nd.

My point wasn't that Rondo is the MVP. I've seen people say that we don't know how good of a passer Rondo really is because he plays w/ great teamtes. That's bull. Rondo has great court vision and has a great ability to create for others. He definately has a high basketball IQ. That doesn't have **** to do w/ his teamates. Those are individual skills. Rondo's passes are great - it doesn't matter whether the shot goes in or not. A great pass is a great pass, whether the guys makes or misses it. We don't need to wait until Rondo is on a rebuilding team to confirm that he is a great offensive "quarterback."


I have never subsribed to this either. It makes no sense to me at all if you watch Rondo play. He would have a high assist rate with the Wolves or Clippers too

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 03:30 PM
what do people think the MVP means? Meaning, is it the best player? or is it the player who people think is the most valuable to their team? The second option can be viewed any number of ways. So I go with the first

Chucky Woods
11-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Noah will NEVER be an MVP candidate. Get that out of your head bulls fans

Chucky Woods
11-14-2010, 03:40 PM
i find it very hard to judge rondo as a player atm I find the same for Rose, Noah, and Boozer:)

hugepatsfan
11-14-2010, 03:42 PM
Noah will NEVER be an MVP candidate. Get that out of your head bulls fans

No he won't. I don't understand what that has to do w/ Rondo, but you're 100% right.

Hiphopopotamus
11-14-2010, 03:44 PM
if Rondo's assists are only because of the "Big 3"...

then Arroyo should be averaging 25 assists/game

just sayin...

this.

Cubs Win
11-14-2010, 04:09 PM
if Rondo's assists are only because of the "Big 3"...

then Arroyo should be averaging 25 assists/game

just sayin...

You also have to consider how much Arroyo touches the ball in comparison to Rondo. Rondo is legitimately playing PG for the Celtics. Arroyo is on the court because the rules say you need 5 players on the court. Wade and LeBron are the primary ball handlers on the Heat, so how will Arroyo get that many assists? You really should've thought that through a little more.

And I have nothing against Rondo; I love the way he plays the game. Your example just doesn't quite hold up.

BkOriginalOne
11-14-2010, 04:12 PM
Rondo is great.
15 dimes per game when playing alongside Pierce, Allen and KG. The fact that he touches the ball enough to rack up those dimes tells you a lot about how they see him. He is the best defensive point guard in the league and the best at finding people.
This obv makes him a top 5 PG and an MVP candidate. He won't win, but having him outside of the MVP disucssion would be absurd.

checkit
11-14-2010, 04:57 PM
You also have to consider how much Arroyo touches the ball in comparison to Rondo. Rondo is legitimately playing PG for the Celtics. Arroyo is on the court because the rules say you need 5 players on the court. Wade and LeBron are the primary ball handlers on the Heat, so how will Arroyo get that many assists? You really should've thought that through a little more.

And I have nothing against Rondo; I love the way he plays the game. Your example just doesn't quite hold up.

so you are saying that if Arroyo got more touches, he would be averaging 25 dimes a game?....okay.

Cubs Win
11-14-2010, 05:06 PM
so you are saying that if Arroyo got more touches, he would be averaging 25 dimes a game?....okay.

Re-read what I wrote. No where did I say if Arroyo got more touches that he could average 25 assists a game. I was simply pointing out that it is ignorant to compare Arroyo to Rondo because their roles are so vastly different.

checkit
11-14-2010, 05:13 PM
Re-read what I wrote. No where did I say if Arroyo got more touches that he could average 25 assists a game. I was simply pointing out that it is ignorant to compare Arroyo to Rondo because their roles are so vastly different.

also their skill set is vastly different. even if Arroyo was given a similar role to Rondo (which I know wouldn't happen) I wouldn't expect his assist average to be as high as Rondo's. He might average more, but not to the level of Rondo's. he does not have that type of court vision or skill. that's why I hate when people try to undersell Rondo with the Big 3 argument. Rondo isn't just assisting them either, he gives his other teammates good looks as well.

samevans7
11-14-2010, 05:26 PM
MVP 2004-05 Nash v 2010-11 Rondo


Player/PPG/APG/RPG/SPG/other starters
'10-'11 Rondo/10.8/15.1/5.2/2.7/Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen
'04-'05 Nash/15.5/11.5/3.4/1.0/Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson

I see no reason why if Steve Nash can win an MVP, why can't Rondo?

JWO35
11-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Why does every Rondo thread end up being a Derrick Rose is better thread?

Sixerlover
11-14-2010, 05:30 PM
Re-read what I wrote. No where did I say if Arroyo got more touches that he could average 25 assists a game. I was simply pointing out that it is ignorant to compare Arroyo to Rondo because their roles are so vastly different.

Maybe it's just because Rondo is the much much better player and PG

Cubs Win
11-14-2010, 07:30 PM
Maybe it's just because Rondo is the much much better player and PG

So you honestly think that if you put Rondo on the Heat and give him Arroyo's role he could put up 25 assists per game?

samevans7
11-14-2010, 07:52 PM
So you honestly think that if you put Rondo on the Heat and give him Arroyo's role he could put up 25 assists per game?

can LBJ and Wade average 30 ppg, and Bosh 25ppg? no.

rondo could in more team-oriented clubs

KG2TB
11-14-2010, 08:32 PM
This is the thing. Rondo's a great PG. Top 5 in the league I'd say. I love his game and I love the way he's perfected his role on the C's. The thing is though, putting him in the MVP discussion is absurd. I can't think of one MVP winner that had as many holes in their game as Rondo does. He can't shoot free throws, he can't shoot from the field, and if his teammates aren't hitting their shots he can't take over a game. Plain and simple. As far as court vision and passing ability you have to put him right at the top with CP3 and LeBron, but as far as an overall player and MVP candidate he's probably not in the top 10.

balla4life22
11-14-2010, 08:36 PM
So you honestly think that if you put Rondo on the Heat and give him Arroyo's role he could put up 25 assists per game?

arroyo isnt even close to being good enough to be the same role rondo plays. rondo controls the game in so many ways because hes just THAT GOOD. obviously if arroyo was as good as rondo he would be dominating the ball instead of having wade and lebron controlling it all the time. You really cant take anything away from rondo hes just nasty

sargon21
11-14-2010, 08:38 PM
This is the thing. Rondo's a great PG. Top 5 in the league I'd say. I love his game and I love the way he's perfected his role on the C's. The thing is though, putting him in the MVP discussion is absurd. I can't think of one MVP winner that had as many holes in their game as Rondo does. He can't shoot free throws, he can't shoot from the field, and if his teammates aren't hitting their shots he can't take over a game. Plain and simple. As far as court vision and passing ability you have to put him right at the top with CP3 and LeBron, but as far as an overall player and MVP candidate he's probably not in the top 10.

I agree.

balla4life22
11-14-2010, 08:44 PM
This is the thing. Rondo's a great PG. Top 5 in the league I'd say. I love his game and I love the way he's perfected his role on the C's. The thing is though, putting him in the MVP discussion is absurd. I can't think of one MVP winner that had as many holes in their game as Rondo does. He can't shoot free throws, he can't shoot from the field, and if his teammates aren't hitting their shots he can't take over a game. Plain and simple. As far as court vision and passing ability you have to put him right at the top with CP3 and LeBron, but as far as an overall player and MVP candidate he's probably not in the top 10.

the thing about rondo is that he gets his teammates easier shots for them to make. how many times have you seen him throw a perfect alley-oop pass to shaq or garnett. and when players sag off him too much hes consistently hit that 15 footer. hes amazing at finishing at the hole with his crazy circus shots, thats why the defense pays so much attention to him when he drives, and gets the easy shots for his teammates. Steve Nash has a huge whole in his game. His ENTIRE defense is atrocious, and he won mvp.

SeoulBeatz
11-14-2010, 09:03 PM
Rondo is odd, man. Anybody who downplays him, obviously doesn't watch him much. He really is impressive. But that being said for all he does well, his lack of scoring is a liability. The fact that he can't shoot free throws and thus boston can't keep the ball in his hands at the end of games is a huge liability. I live in the celtic viewing area (one hour north of boston) and like Rondo alot, obviously as a dynamic defender and creator. But just such a strange dynamic in his game. He can definitely dominate a game without scoring which is a rare talent (see Rodman w his elite D and rebounding for example). But I want my PG to be able to knock down an open 15 footer and hit FTs at 80% plus. The PG doesn't have to score 20, but he has to not be a liability. I prefer Paul and Rose to Rondo, but still like Rondo very much.

Exactly how i feel.

KG2TB
11-14-2010, 09:25 PM
the thing about rondo is that he gets his teammates easier shots for them to make. how many times have you seen him throw a perfect alley-oop pass to shaq or garnett. and when players sag off him too much hes consistently hit that 15 footer. hes amazing at finishing at the hole with his crazy circus shots, thats why the defense pays so much attention to him when he drives, and gets the easy shots for his teammates. Steve Nash has a huge whole in his game. His ENTIRE defense is atrocious, and he won mvp.

Realllllly? The Lakers will disagree there because that's how they defended him during the finals...and they sagged off him a LOT. Like a few feet. He's definitely not a consistent mid-range shooter. Sorry but that statement is absurd.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 09:27 PM
the thing about rondo is that he gets his teammates easier shots for them to make. how many times have you seen him throw a perfect alley-oop pass to shaq or garnett. and when players sag off him too much hes consistently hit that 15 footer. hes amazing at finishing at the hole with his crazy circus shots, thats why the defense pays so much attention to him when he drives, and gets the easy shots for his teammates. Steve Nash has a huge whole in his game. His ENTIRE defense is atrocious, and he won mvp.

first bolded statement- NOT TRUE. Rondo is not a capable shooter, even when left open.

second bolded statement- Nash's weakness and Rondo's weakness offset each other. Nash is the best shooter who has ever played the game, Rondo sucks at it. Rondo is a disruptive defender who causes havoc, Nash sucks at it.

Nash winning MVP was a joke, and continued the trend of how worthless that award is many times.

KG2TB
11-14-2010, 09:40 PM
first bolded statement- NOT TRUE. Rondo is not a capable shooter, even when left open.

second bolded statement- Nash's weakness and Rondo's weakness offset each other. Nash is the best shooter who has ever played the game, Rondo sucks at it. Rondo is a disruptive defender who causes havoc, Nash sucks at it.

Nash winning MVP was a joke, and continued the trend of how worthless that award is many times.

Agreed. Nash shouldn't have won.

Duncan = Donkey
11-14-2010, 09:42 PM
Nash's entire defense isn't a joke, its his man defense which is a joke. He is smart defender and takes a lot of charges. His Biggest and only problem on defense is that he cant keep in front of anybody, but unfortunately if you cant stay in front of your man you cant guard anyone. Which obviously means your going to be a terrible at defense.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 09:44 PM
Nash's entire defense isn't a joke, its his man defense which is a joke. He is smart defender and takes a lot of charges. His Biggest and only problem on defense is that he cant keep in front of anybody, but unfortunately if you cant stay in front of your man you cant guard anyone. Which obviously means your going to be a terrible at defense.

His defense is a joke when speaking of an MVP, I think that is the assessment when intelligent fans are evaluating him. In the large scheme of things, Nash isn't that horrible of a defender

checkit
11-14-2010, 11:04 PM
arroyo isnt even close to being good enough to be the same role rondo plays. rondo controls the game in so many ways because hes just THAT GOOD. obviously if arroyo was as good as rondo he would be dominating the ball instead of having wade and lebron controlling it all the time. You really cant take anything away from rondo hes just nasty

exactly

HoopsMachine
11-14-2010, 11:16 PM
I wouldn't say he is an MVP candidate as he still needs to develp a consistent jumper, but he's definitely up there with the top PG's (Paul and Williams)

Hawkeye15
11-14-2010, 11:18 PM
I wouldn't say he is an MVP candidate as he still needs to develp a consistent jumper, but he's definitely up there with the top PG's (Paul and Williams)

give me your top 5 PG's, in order.

balla4life22
11-15-2010, 01:56 AM
Realllllly? The Lakers will disagree there because that's how they defended him during the finals...and they sagged off him a LOT. Like a few feet. He's definitely not a consistent mid-range shooter. Sorry but that statement is absurd.

yeah youre right idk why i said that. but everything else is true lol

69centers
11-16-2010, 01:11 AM
what the hell kind of stat is this? Are you just adding up their points, and assuming all their assists lead to 2 points? That is so inaccurate I can't even begin to explain.
Look at their offensive ratings. Paul is taking a dump on everyone.

I love it when someone just makes up a stat to show their guy.

Assuming all their assists lead to 2 points!?! :facepalm::jumpy::laugh2: :laugh2:

OMG! What do assists lead to then?? I said 2 points, because I am downplaying it, as an assist can lead to 3 points. AT MINIMUM, an assists leads to 2 points. WOW! :speechless:

Hustlenomics
11-16-2010, 01:16 AM
Assuming all their assists lead to 2 points!?! :facepalm::jumpy::laugh2: :laugh2:

OMG! What do assists lead to then?? I said 2 points, because I am downplaying it, as an assist can lead to 3 points. AT MINIMUM, an assists leads to 2 points. WOW! :speechless:

:laugh2:

a4anthony
11-16-2010, 01:21 AM
I don't think will ever change their own opinion about Rondo......well as long as he is making plays for the celtics im fine with it

69centers
11-16-2010, 01:37 AM
I don't mean to come after you on this, I actually agree with you much of the time, but Rondo plays a ton of minutes, turns it over at twice the rate Paul does (this takes away possessions, and that is bad for the offense), and his scoring efficiency is so subpar to Paul or Williams, it isnt even funny. Rondo has had a great year distributing the ball. But his complete incompetence scoring the ball, and his turning the ball over 1/4 possessions he is involved in, keeps his offensive rate right where it always has been. Not so great.

Funny, Rondo was 2nd in the league last year in Efficiency ranking and he's currently number 1 this year.

2009 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

2010 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)) = EFF

Keep going Hawkeye, you're really on a roll in this thread. :cool: :burn:

balla4life22
11-16-2010, 07:24 PM
Funny, Rondo was 2nd in the league last year in Efficiency ranking and he's currently number 1 this year.

2009 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

2010 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)) = EFF

Keep going Hawkeye, you're really on a roll in this thread. :cool: :burn:

yeah i agree with 69centers. Rondo is extremely efficient

What?
11-17-2010, 12:46 AM
Funny, Rondo was 2nd in the league last year in Efficiency ranking and he's currently number 1 this year.

2009 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

2010 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)) = EFF

Keep going Hawkeye, you're really on a roll in this thread. :cool: :burn:

What are you talking about Rondo's efficiency among guards was 6 last year 5 points behind Pauls and he's 5th this year among guards 3.5 behind Paul who has led the league among guards for 4 straight years in efficiency rating and considering last year Paul was injured if you go back to his last fully healthy season in 08-09 his efficiency is 10 points higher then rondos last year.

Efficiency rating this year
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams


Efficiency rating in 09-10

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=

Raph12
11-17-2010, 01:38 AM
So Dwight putting up 22-11-2-1-3 on near 60% shooting in 32mpg while leading his team to one of the best records in the league isn't MVP-worthy?...

You're comparing Noah to Dwight? If you're not the MVP of your team, how can you be the MVP of the league? Dwight is the focal point of the Magic's offense and defense, he anchors them on both ends, Noah is a good defensive player, but a garbage man on the other end.

No comparison required, Dwight is a legit MVP candidate, Noah is a decent-to-good center and that's about it.

sargon21
11-17-2010, 01:54 AM
^ Noah is better than decent-to-good, but not in Dwight's league.

SteveNash
11-17-2010, 01:57 AM
I just got to say, Rajon Rondo is one of the most beautiful players to ever play the game. His hard work and dedication constantly improving should make him the model NBA player for years to come.


So Dwight putting up 22-11-2-1-3 on near 60% shooting in 32mpg while leading his team to one of the best records in the league isn't MVP-worthy?...

You're comparing Noah to Dwight? If you're not the MVP of your team, how can you be the MVP of the league? Dwight is the focal point of the Magic's offense and defense, he anchors them on both ends, Noah is a good defensive player, but a garbage man on the other end.

No comparison required, Dwight is a legit MVP candidate, Noah is a decent-to-good center and that's about it.

Joakim Noah is the MVP of the Chicago Bulls.

Raph12
11-17-2010, 02:02 AM
I just got to say, Rajon Rondo is one of the most beautiful players to ever play the game. His hard work and dedication constantly improving should make him the model NBA player for years to come.

I love Rondo's game, he just needs to work on that jumper.


Joakim Noah is the MVP of the Chicago Bulls.

Extremely debatable, I'd argue that both Rose and Boozer will be more valuable by the time the season is over.

Ovratd1up
11-17-2010, 02:16 AM
Noah is a good defensive player, but a garbage man on the other end.

Common misconception, but wrong nonetheless. Noah is an average to above average defender, overrated on that end as his scrappy play and disruption (while still valuable) is mistaken for real defense.

On offense he is definitely solid/good, definitely above average for his position.

He is NOT a rich man's or an upper middle class Varejao, and is probably better on the offensive end than defensive.

NothingbutWill
11-17-2010, 02:26 AM
Funny, Rondo was 2nd in the league last year in Efficiency ranking and he's currently number 1 this year.

2009 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

2010 EFF ranking (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=east&position=5&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams)

((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)) = EFF

Keep going Hawkeye, you're really on a roll in this thread. :cool: :burn:

You only filtered it throughout the EASTERN CONFERENCE and not the whole league.

But anyways.

Rondo is a great player but until he has proven he can be this efficient without 3-4 all stars on his team, I'm not going hold him up that high. Right now, he is #3 behind CP3 and D-Will.

Raph12
11-17-2010, 02:38 AM
Common misconception, but wrong nonetheless. Noah is an average to above average defender, overrated on that end as his scrappy play and disruption (while still valuable) is mistaken for real defense.

On offense he is definitely solid/good, definitely above average for his position.

He is NOT a rich man's or an upper middle class Varejao, and is probably better on the offensive end than defensive.

From what I've seen on offense, he's strictly a finisher, he struggles to create for himself and his play in the low post is lacking to say the least...

I don't watch him much, I basically watch the Bulls when they play the Magic and he doesn't really stack up anywhere near Dwight so idk, I guess I'll need to watch a few more games before doing a proper assessment of his game.

Ovratd1up
11-17-2010, 03:26 AM
From what I've seen on offense, he's strictly a finisher, he struggles to create for himself and his play in the low post is lacking to say the least...

I don't watch him much, I basically watch the Bulls when they play the Magic and he doesn't really stack up anywhere near Dwight so idk, I guess I'll need to watch a few more games before doing a proper assessment of his game.

Yeah. But it doesn't take many games to assess that Noah is not on the same plane as Dwight.

Ishkabibble
11-17-2010, 12:24 PM
The "until he has proven he can be efficient w/out 3 or 4 All Stars..." is a dumb argument and always has been.
Penalizing a guy because he happens to have quality teammates?

Is Peyton Manning less of a QB because he's played with potential HOF's like Dallas Clark, Marvin Harrison & Reggie Wayne in his career?
And how about all the games he plays indoors in Nov. & Dec....while others play outdoors in Foxboro or Green Bay?
How much has Joe Montana's reputation been tarnished because he played w/ the Greatest Wide Receiver Ever?

Problem is Manning's almost certainly not gonna be taking snaps for the Buffalo Bills next season. And Rondo's not gonna be running the point for the Cavaliers in 2011 either.

How about making a point that can be legitimately debated?

tcav701
11-17-2010, 12:35 PM
The ENTIRE "he plays with 3 HOF's" argument is completely uneducated.

The Celtics are 15th in PPG this year and were 19th last year.

So how does 3 HOF's inflate Rondo's assists but are on the bottom half of scoring teams at the same time?

NickyNick
11-17-2010, 12:37 PM
The ENTIRE "he plays with 3 HOF's" argument is completely uneducated.

The Celtics are 15th in PPG this year and were 19th last year.

So how does 3 HOF's inflate Rondo's assists but are on the bottom half of scoring teams at the same time?

bam....well said

DaBUU
11-17-2010, 12:39 PM
From what I've seen on offense, he's strictly a finisher, he struggles to create for himself and his play in the low post is lacking to say the least...

I don't watch him much, I basically watch the Bulls when they play the Magic and he doesn't really stack up anywhere near Dwight so idk, I guess I'll need to watch a few more games before doing a proper assessment of his game.

Holy crap, this was said in the NBA forum? is the sky falling? IMO D12 should be the leading candidate for MVP at the moment. DOnt know why hes not, hes having a moster season so far.

tcav701
11-17-2010, 12:47 PM
bam....well said

Too bad everyone on the other side of the argument is going to ignore my post and argue other points they find flaws in.

Happens to me often on PSD.

corky831
11-17-2010, 12:53 PM
just purchased a rondo jersey......ima celtics fan....its tough watching every nba game cuz its the nba....i used 2 rlly just watch playoff games.....but now i try and watch every celtic game I can bc rondo does something amazing every night.....he's just so fun 2 watch....hes got mad energy on the court.....and its unheard of seeing a guy basically average 15 assists a game in the league nowadays....will he maintain that ave? who knows......but all IK is that Rondo makes the game of basketball fun to watch......neone else see that dunk bout a week ago? no one expected that from him......things like that.....u never kno wut hes gonna surprise u with each night hes on the court.....he's a great player.....idk bout MVP tho cuz the celtics are a great team......i agree that mvp should be considered to those players that basically carry a team by themselves.....aka Lebron on Cleveland, Wade when he was on the Heat by himself, CP3...etc.....but rondo is hands down top 5 PG in the league....with me ranking him in the top 3

SouthSideRookie
11-17-2010, 01:03 PM
Only point guard I would take ahead of Rondo is CP3 and possibly D Will. The guy seems to raise his level of play in big games, easily one of my favorite bb players.

Cool007
11-17-2010, 01:43 PM
The ENTIRE "he plays with 3 HOF's" argument is completely uneducated.

The Celtics are 15th in PPG this year and were 19th last year.

So how does 3 HOF's inflate Rondo's assists but are on the bottom half of scoring teams at the same time?


Too bad everyone on the other side of the argument is going to ignore my post and argue other points they find flaws in.

Happens to me often on PSD.

What???

Does that tell you the whole story???

If you don't watch them, then I suggest you do. Boton's 3 HOFers are playing their best since their championship year. Look it up.

Ray Allen:

09-10 = 16.3ppg 47.7% fg 36% 3pt
10-11 = 19 ppg 47.9% fg 46% 3pt


Paul Pierce:

09-10 = 18.3ppg 47% fg 41% 3pt
10-11 = 21ppg 50% fg 44% 3pt


Kevin Garnett:

Raised his PPG and RPG - a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine.


Meaning, these 3 HOFers are playing like they are in their prime again - no wonder Rondo's assists are rising and rising.

Watch, once you see atleast 1 of them get injured and see Rondo's assists come down.

tcav701
11-17-2010, 01:53 PM
What???

Does that tell you the whole story???

If you don't watch them, then I suggest you do. Boton's 3 HOFers are playing their best since their championship year. Look it up.

Ray Allen:

09-10 = 16.3ppg 47.7% fg 36% 3pt
10-11 = 19 ppg 47.9% fg 46% 3pt


Paul Pierce:

09-10 = 18.3ppg 47% fg 41% 3pt
10-11 = 21ppg 50% fg 44% 3pt


Kevin Garnett:

Raised his PPG and RPG - a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine.


Meaning, these 3 HOFers are playing like they are in their prime again - no wonder Rondo's assists are rising and rising.

Watch, once you see atleast 1 of them get injured and see Rondo's assists come down.

What does it matter if it's the big 3 scoring or someone else scoring?

Regaurdless of who is scoring, the team is still 15th in PPG. That means, by your theroy, that he would have more assists on 14 other teams right?

I don't need you to tell me about the Celtics I watch EVERY game they play. The big 3 are having better years because of Rondo.

YoungOne
11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
What does it matter if it's the big 3 scoring or someone else scoring?

Regaurdless of who is scoring, the team is still 15th in PPG. That means, by your theroy, that he would have more assists on 14 other teams right?

I don't need you to tell me about the Celtics I watch EVERY game they play. The big 3 are having better years because of Rondo.

this.

madiaz3
11-17-2010, 02:16 PM
What???

Does that tell you the whole story???

If you don't watch them, then I suggest you do. Boton's 3 HOFers are playing their best since their championship year. Look it up.

Ray Allen:

09-10 = 16.3ppg 47.7% fg 36% 3pt
10-11 = 19 ppg 47.9% fg 46% 3pt


Paul Pierce:

09-10 = 18.3ppg 47% fg 41% 3pt
10-11 = 21ppg 50% fg 44% 3pt


Kevin Garnett:

Raised his PPG and RPG - a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine.


Meaning, these 3 HOFers are playing like they are in their prime again - no wonder Rondo's assists are rising and rising.

Watch, once you see atleast 1 of them get injured and see Rondo's assists come down.

I think Rondo is the reason for their higher ppg and efficiency.

Cool007
11-17-2010, 02:29 PM
I think Rondo is the reason for their higher ppg and efficiency.

It's debatable. It;s like chicken or the egg argument.

Maybe Rondo's getting more assists coz they make more shots right now then in previous years? Maybe they are hot???

This is why I want to see how Rondo plays/produces when these 3 HOfers are gone/retired. I think Rondo is phenomenal but we won't know if it's the big 3 or whatever it is.

I also want to see if 1 of them go down, how does his assists affect? If it goes from 15apg to 10apg, I would be pretty certain that IT IS THE HOFers teammates.

If it stays basically the same: 14-15apg then I will give Rondo big props.

mikantsass
11-17-2010, 02:36 PM
It's debatable. It;s like chicken or the egg argument.

Maybe Rondo's getting more assists coz they make more shots right now then in previous years? Maybe they are hot???

This is why I want to see how Rondo plays/produces when these 3 HOfers are gone/retired. I think Rondo is phenomenal but we won't know if it's the big 3 or whatever it is.

I also want to see if 1 of them go down, how does his assists affect? If it goes from 15apg to 10apg, I would be pretty certain that IT IS THE HOFers teammates.

If it stays basically the same: 14-15apg then I will give Rondo big props.

Well im sure Rondo's goal in life is to get big props from biased Bulls fans, so you are in luck!

Just sit back, relax, and get ready to watch Rondo in the NBA finals

tcav701
11-17-2010, 02:38 PM
It's debatable. It;s like chicken or the egg argument.

Maybe Rondo's getting more assists coz they make more shots right now then in previous years? Maybe they are hot???

This is why I want to see how Rondo plays/produces when these 3 HOfers are gone/retired. I think Rondo is phenomenal but we won't know if it's the big 3 or whatever it is.

I also want to see if 1 of them go down, how does his assists affect? If it goes from 15apg to 10apg, I would be pretty certain that IT IS THE HOFers teammates.

If it stays basically the same: 14-15apg then I will give Rondo big props.

OR

maybe Rondo is spoon feeding these guys. Rondo assists on over half of Pierce and Allens baskets. You dont see that much since wing players go 1 on 1 alot and there is no assists in that case.

As for KG, Rondo assists on over 60% of his baskets. That tells me it's more Rondo than the scorers.

Look at Big Baby, Rondo spoon feeds him a handful of times a game. Rondo is earning Glen FA attetnion he doesn't really deserve.

But you are right that it s somewhat of a chicken/egg question but I'm pretty confident watching the games that Rondo is getting these guys good looks at the basket.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2010, 02:43 PM
this thread just continues to give birth to itself

hugepatsfan
11-17-2010, 04:59 PM
What???

Does that tell you the whole story???

If you don't watch them, then I suggest you do. Boton's 3 HOFers are playing their best since their championship year. Look it up.

Ray Allen:

09-10 = 16.3ppg 47.7% fg 36% 3pt
10-11 = 19 ppg 47.9% fg 46% 3pt


Paul Pierce:

09-10 = 18.3ppg 47% fg 41% 3pt
10-11 = 21ppg 50% fg 44% 3pt


Kevin Garnett:

Raised his PPG and RPG - a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine.


Meaning, these 3 HOFers are playing like they are in their prime again - no wonder Rondo's assists are rising and rising.

Watch, once you see atleast 1 of them get injured and see Rondo's assists come down.

Isn't it possible that Rondo stepping his game up has made thing easier for the Big 3 to get back closer to where they were in their prime?

celtisox41
11-17-2010, 06:14 PM
What???

Does that tell you the whole story???

If you don't watch them, then I suggest you do. Boton's 3 HOFers are playing their best since their championship year. Look it up.

Ray Allen:

09-10 = 16.3ppg 47.7% fg 36% 3pt
10-11 = 19 ppg 47.9% fg 46% 3pt


Paul Pierce:

09-10 = 18.3ppg 47% fg 41% 3pt
10-11 = 21ppg 50% fg 44% 3pt


Kevin Garnett:

Raised his PPG and RPG - a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine.


Meaning, these 3 HOFers are playing like they are in their prime again - no wonder Rondo's assists are rising and rising.

Watch, once you see atleast 1 of them get injured and see Rondo's assists come down.

First off, how do you know one will get hurt? Second, did you ever stop to think they're playing that well because rondo is getting them great looks? I bet you didn't because as a bulls fan your probably still trying to convince yourself D-Rose is better

celtisox41
11-17-2010, 06:15 PM
Isn't it possible that Rondo stepping his game up has made thing easier for the Big 3 to get back closer to where they were in their prime?

Oops, didn't know you already said that

DaBUU
11-17-2010, 06:24 PM
First off, how do you know one will get hurt? Second, did you ever stop to think they're playing that well because rondo is getting them great looks? I bet you didn't because as a bulls fan your probably still trying to convince yourself D-Rose is better

Im not about to get into it, but DRose is better than Rondo, and i think Rondo is a hell of a PG. DRose has stepped to that next level, sorry but its the truth.

n83417
11-17-2010, 06:27 PM
Isn't it possible that Rondo stepping his game up has made thing easier for the Big 3 to get back closer to where they were in their prime?

My point exactly. Everyone always said "If Len Bias didn't die, he would have extended the original big three's careers and the Celtics relevancy through the 90s. He would have helped bring a few more banners to Boston..."

Right now, Rondo is extending the current big three's prime and the relevancy of the Boston Celtics. Rondo makes these guys better.


Anyone who has seen this team without Rondo knows how important he is to the team.

checkit
11-17-2010, 07:15 PM
Im not about to get into it, but DRose is better than Rondo, and i think Rondo is a hell of a PG. DRose has stepped to that next level, sorry but its the truth.

lol..and this is coming from another biased Bulls fan. Whodathunkit? lol. Yeah let's save this for another thread.

SteveNash
11-17-2010, 07:29 PM
I love Rondo's game, he just needs to work on that jumper.

And he has. the bigger question is FT shooting, it's not just because he has big hands.


Extremely debatable, I'd argue that both Rose and Boozer will be more valuable by the time the season is over.

If Joakim Noah continues to be a solid offensive player like he has to start the season, there's no way Boozer comes close to being more valuable. Rose doesn't come close to being the most valuable considering how poor of an offensive and defensive player he truly is.


The ENTIRE "he plays with 3 HOF's" argument is completely uneducated.

The Celtics are 15th in PPG this year and were 19th last year.

So how does 3 HOF's inflate Rondo's assists but are on the bottom half of scoring teams at the same time?

3 HOFs definitely inflate Rondo's assists, especially Ray Allen. Though probably not to the degree some people would make it out to be. Boston is low PPG because they play at a slower pace.

dtmagnet
11-17-2010, 09:09 PM
It's debatable. It;s like chicken or the egg argument.

Maybe Rondo's getting more assists coz they make more shots right now then in previous years? Maybe they are hot???

This is why I want to see how Rondo plays/produces when these 3 HOfers are gone/retired. I think Rondo is phenomenal but we won't know if it's the big 3 or whatever it is.

I also want to see if 1 of them go down, how does his assists affect? If it goes from 15apg to 10apg, I would be pretty certain that IT IS THE HOFers teammates.

If it stays basically the same: 14-15apg then I will give Rondo big props.

Who cares who his teammates are? You are being a typical Bulls fan always making excuses as to why your beloved Rose is better than another player.

Doogolas
11-17-2010, 09:31 PM
And he has. the bigger question is FT shooting, it's not just because he has big hands.



If Joakim Noah continues to be a solid offensive player like he has to start the season, there's no way Boozer comes close to being more valuable. Rose doesn't come close to being the most valuable considering how poor of an offensive and defensive player he truly is.



3 HOFs definitely inflate Rondo's assists, especially Ray Allen. Though probably not to the degree some people would make it out to be. Boston is low PPG because they play at a slower pace.

In what way is Rose poor offensively?

hugepatsfan
11-17-2010, 09:40 PM
I think this thread has played itself out. There are some who will never accept Rondo as anything more than a product of the Big 3. Others think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. All I see is stupid staement after stupid statement. People saying Rondo is a good shooter, that Rose sucks on offense, that Rondo or Rose are better than D-Will, etc. I wish a mod would just end this. It's going no where.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-17-2010, 09:44 PM
If Rose were on the Celtics it wouldn't even be close. And vice-versa. The team he is surrounded by is a tremendous help.

hugepatsfan
11-17-2010, 09:59 PM
If Rose were on the Celtics it wouldn't even be close. And vice-versa. The team he is surrounded by is a tremendous help.

If Rose were on the Celts he wouldn't be as good as Rondo is on the team. The Celts are not built to his strengths. Rose would not be as good at getting all people involved and running the show. He would look for his shot more, which goes against the Celts' offensive concept. Shaq, Ray, and KG are all good, but none of them really can create their own shots any more. Ray needs Rondo to hit him off of screens. Shaq needs Rondo to feed him under the basket. KG needs alley-oops from Rondo or pick and pop jump shots.

n83417
11-17-2010, 10:14 PM
Rondo is Ill Nasty. Who gives a **** if he has flaws in his game. Everyone does. It just so happens that his flaws/weaknesses fall perfectly into the strengths of the rest of the team. He is perfect for this current Celtic team. PERFECT. He is the leader of this team, he can score when he needs to. He is not asked to shoot 18 footers, and he doesn't get to the line anyway.

I don't give a **** if Rondo is the best, or the 10th best PG in the league. He is the perfect fit for this current Boston Celtic team. The Boston Celtic team defense would suffer with almost any other PG. And their offensive chemistry would suffer as well.

Some point guards are pass first. Some are shoot first. Rondo is pass first, second, third, and score when he has to.

Rondo is an old fashioned PG. He is a distributor. If some other PGs had the ability to put the team first, and not worry about personal statistics, the team would be better for it.

Take Rose, D-Will, Paul, Nash and Westbrook and whoever else and leave them right where they are, and I will keep Rondo. I like my chances.

Raph12
11-18-2010, 01:07 AM
And he has. the bigger question is FT shooting, it's not just because he has big hands.

True, if he can knock down the FTs, it won't matter if he can hit the 3 or not.


If Joakim Noah continues to be a solid offensive player like he has to start the season, there's no way Boozer comes close to being more valuable. Rose doesn't come close to being the most valuable considering how poor of an offensive and defensive player he truly is.

That's a big "if" he started last season very strong as well, only to come back down to earth when it was said and done. Boozer will take away from his touches and also hinder his stats across the board. I'll need to see more from Noah before I can crown him Chitown's MVP, he has a habit of fading away as the season progresses.

mikantsass
11-18-2010, 04:15 PM
If Rose were on the Celtics it wouldn't even be close. And vice-versa. The team he is surrounded by is a tremendous help.

If Rose were on the Celtics he wouldnt be able to chuck up 27 shots per game

Jamiecballer
11-18-2010, 04:38 PM
i'm sure you thought you were making a strong case when you made this thread but.... you weren't.

Dnovakovic099
11-18-2010, 04:54 PM
You Celtics homers are pathetic. Rose has same shooting average as Rondo and yet you credit all his points to "chucking up shots". I know it has only been ten games, but Rose has a better shooting percentage than Durant and a better 3pt shooting average than Durant. Same goes with Bryant. Saying that Paul and Rondo are way better than Rose is ****ing stupid. Are you watching any Bulls games? The dude has way less around him than Chris Paul, and lets not even talk about Rondo. Rose takes the Bulls and carries them on his back. Rondo isn't better than Rose. Yes, his assists are high, but he can't carry a team like Rose does. Plus, Rose would have 12 assists per game if Deng could just make a ****ing shot.

nightBULL
11-18-2010, 06:10 PM
The team he is surrounded by is a tremendous help.

Then why does Carlos Arroyo still suck?

nightBULL
11-18-2010, 06:24 PM
If Rose were on the Celtics he wouldnt be able to chuck up 27 shots per game

If Rondo was on the Bulls he wouldn't score 30 a game or average the amount of assists he's averaging with the Celtics.

People hating on Rose for putting up so many shots are just ignorant. He's in a different situation than Rondo. The Bulls literally have no one that can create their own offense other than Rose, so Rose has to carry the offensive load until Boozer is ready to go.

I'm sure if Rose was in a situation similar to Rondo where he was the team's 4th option instead of the team's only option he'd average 10+ assists a game too simply on his ability to break down defenses off the dribble (you think Luol Deng would have so many 3's this season if it wasn't for Rose sucking the D in and creating open looks for him?)

Does anyone here even watch basketball??

SteveNash
11-18-2010, 06:52 PM
In what way is Rose poor offensively?

He's not efficient, at all.

69centers
11-18-2010, 10:10 PM
Then why does Carlos Arroyo still suck?

True. So sick of all the talk of it being who Rondo plays with that inflates his assist numbers. If you go by that, Arroyo should be getting 25 assists per night. He doesn't because Ray, Paul, and KG get huge help from Rondo in getting the ball where they want it. Wade and James do it on their own and don't need anyone.

There's a reason why Rondo is currently #2 in the early MVP talks, ahead of both James and Wade:

MVP Watch (http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/Awards-101116/nba-awards-watch)


Nobody's better than Rondo right now at making teammates better.

mikantsass
11-19-2010, 11:09 AM
If Rondo was on the Bulls he wouldn't score 30 a game or average the amount of assists he's averaging with the Celtics.

People hating on Rose for putting up so many shots are just ignorant. He's in a different situation than Rondo. The Bulls literally have no one that can create their own offense other than Rose, so Rose has to carry the offensive load until Boozer is ready to go.

I'm sure if Rose was in a situation similar to Rondo where he was the team's 4th option instead of the team's only option he'd average 10+ assists a game too simply on his ability to break down defenses off the dribble (you think Luol Deng would have so many 3's this season if it wasn't for Rose sucking the D in and creating open looks for him?)

Does anyone here even watch basketball??

Hate to break it to you but Rondo is not averaging 30 a game.

And you are correct, Rose is completely different than Rondo, Paul, Deron etc... Rose is a scorer. He is a pretty good scorer too. But he needs the ball in his hands and he needs to take 25+ shots per game to be effective. The other guys i mentioned impact the game in many other areas other than scoring. THAT is the difference between Rose and them.

nightBULL
11-19-2010, 03:51 PM
Hate to break it to you but Rondo is not averaging 30 a game.

And you are correct, Rose is completely different than Rondo, Paul, Deron etc... Rose is a scorer. He is a pretty good scorer too. But he needs the ball in his hands and he needs to take 25+ shots per game to be effective. The other guys i mentioned impact the game in many other areas other than scoring. THAT is the difference between Rose and them.
You read my post wrong. Rose is averaging over 30 a game, but if Rondo was on the Bulls there's no way he would be averaging nearlly as high.

And Rose is only a scorer because his team needs him to be right now. He didn't play this way when he had Gordon. I remember Bulls fans complaining about how they wanted Rose to take more shots, that he passed too much, etc... Believe me, Rose is by nature a pass first point gaurd, but sometimes your team needs you to do other things.

FetusSmasher
11-19-2010, 03:53 PM
No love for rondo until he learns how to shoot and make FT's.

redsox0717
11-19-2010, 03:56 PM
No love for rondo until he learns how to shoot and make FT's.

If you have been watching any Celtics games at all, you would see that he is hitting jumpers. Now his FTs are a different story, but not respecting someone for not being able to hit free throws is laughable considering how complete the rest of his game is. Keep hatin.

n83417
11-19-2010, 03:59 PM
You read my post wrong. Rose is averaging over 30 a game, but if Rondo was on the Bulls there's no way he would be averaging nearlly as high.

And Rose is only a scorer because his team needs him to be right now. He didn't play this way when he had Gordon. I remember Bulls fans complaining about how they wanted Rose to take more shots, that he passed too much, etc... Believe me, Rose is by nature a pass first point gaurd, but sometimes your team needs you to do other things.

1. No he is not. He is a shoot/score first.
2. The Celtics are better when Rondo has fewer points and more assists. He can score when he needs to.
3. Rose and Rondo are different players. The Bulls would suffer with Rondo, and the Celtics would suffer with Rose.

Boston does not want a Rose type player at the point. It would not fit their team.

FetusSmasher
11-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Im not hating...... He is a good player but I think people put him above players like westbrook, rose because of the assist rate and steals he gets. Can you imagine if he shot it better with a 75% ft rate the celtics would be automatic champions.

nitric
11-19-2010, 04:03 PM
1. No he is not. He is a shoot/score first.
2. The Celtics are better when Rondo has fewer points and more assists. He can score when he needs to.
3. Rose and Rondo are different players. The Bulls would suffer with Rondo, and the Celtics would suffer with Rose.

Boston does not want a Rose type player at the point. It would not fit their team.

So you have to avg 15 apg to be considered a pass first PG? Lmfao

n83417
11-19-2010, 04:04 PM
If you have been watching any Celtics games at all, you would see that he is hitting jumpers. Now his FTs are a different story, but not respecting someone for not being able to hit free throws is laughable considering how complete the rest of his game is. Keep hatin.

Word. Not to mention Rondo, over his career, takes 2.9 free throws per game. So if Rondo went from a 62.5% FT to a 85% FT shooter, we are talking about a difference of about 3/5 of a point per game played. His greatest weakness is something that is rarely exploited. Oh well, I'm over it.

n83417
11-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Im not hating...... He is a good player but I think people put him above players like westbrook, rose because of the assist rate and steals he gets. Can you imagine if he shot it better with a 75% ft rate the celtics would be automatic champions.

So if you refer to my previous post, you would see that Rondo would score 3/5 of a point more per game. Wow. Huge difference.

n83417
11-19-2010, 04:07 PM
So you have to avg 15 apg to be considered a pass first PG? Lmfao

No. You have to look to pass first to be considered a pass first PG. I'm not knocking Rose. I like Rose, and his game. That is his style. But I have watched Rose, and his first instinct is to score the majority of the time.

Lil Rhody
11-19-2010, 04:18 PM
Let the haters hate!


His game will prove why we all love him so much

nitric
11-19-2010, 04:21 PM
No. You have to look to pass first to be considered a pass first PG. I'm not knocking Rose. I like Rose, and his game. That is his style. But I have watched Rose, and his first instinct is to score the majority of the time.

When Gibson was hitting his J's Rose was averaging 10.5 apg. When Boozer is back and consistently hitting those pick n pop shots and working the pick n roll you'll see Rose hover around 9-10apg(hes already averaging 9APG WITHOUT our 20/10 post player). if that is still score first, well then I guess thats that

Cool007
11-19-2010, 04:32 PM
No. You have to look to pass first to be considered a pass first PG. I'm not knocking Rose. I like Rose, and his game. That is his style. But I have watched Rose, and his first instinct is to score the majority of the time.

Really???

First of all, you think D-Will and Nash were pass first PGs in their 1st and 2nd year??? Because they averaged low number of assists??? They were scoring more and with low assist %, then they improved and started averaging 9+ apg and no-one ever said they were score first PG and not Pass first PG. Why it's different for Rose??? Agenda???

Rose avg 6apg - People say he is not a pass first or pure PG
Rose avg 9apg - People still say he is not a pass first PG???

WTF.

Do you realize who his teammates are??? Did you know that Rose passed it like 20+ times to wide open player against Spurs and how many shots they made??? 4. Freaking 4. That's 4 out of 20+ shots on wide open looks.

Now, Rondo passes to Pierce/Allen/KG/Big Baby/Shaq etc on 20+ passes to wide open player, how many do they make??? I bet you 12 to 15.

I am not talking about hand in the face, I am talking about wide open. 3 of those were point blank layups that Noah/Asik/Deng all missed. Meaning Rose can't get assists coz these morons can't finish or knock down descent amount of open shots.

So what Rose does, take over the game and scores 16 and 13 points in the 4th so Bulls have some chance at winning (went 1-1).

But yeah, Keep on hating.

n83417
11-19-2010, 05:05 PM
Really???

First of all, you think D-Will and Nash were pass first PGs in their 1st and 2nd year??? Because they averaged low number of assists??? They were scoring more and with low assist %, then they improved and started averaging 9+ apg and no-one ever said they were score first PG and not Pass first PG. Why it's different for Rose??? Agenda???

Rose avg 6apg - People say he is not a pass first or pure PG
Rose avg 9apg - People still say he is not a pass first PG???

WTF.

Do you realize who his teammates are??? Did you know that Rose passed it like 20+ times to wide open player against Spurs and how many shots they made??? 4. Freaking 4. That's 4 out of 20+ shots on wide open looks.

Now, Rondo passes to Pierce/Allen/KG/Big Baby/Shaq etc on 20+ passes to wide open player, how many do they make??? I bet you 12 to 15.

I am not talking about hand in the face, I am talking about wide open. 3 of those were point blank layups that Noah/Asik/Deng all missed. Meaning Rose can't get assists coz these morons can't finish or knock down descent amount of open shots.

So what Rose does, take over the game and scores 16 and 13 points in the 4th so Bulls have some chance at winning (went 1-1).

But yeah, Keep on hating.

Hating? OK. Learn to read. I just said i like Rose's game. And that it is different than Rondo. Both style suits the team they are on. How is that hating? Rose is a better scorer, Rondo is a better distributor.

Deal with it.

Minimal
11-19-2010, 05:09 PM
Why in every ****ing point guard thread I enter I see chicago bulls fans trying to prove people Rose is the best point guard in the league?

n83417
11-19-2010, 05:11 PM
Why in every ****ing point guard thread I enter I see chicago bulls fans trying to prove people Rose is the best point guard in the league?

Because ignorant Bulls fans are the only people on the planet that think that way. Not all of them, just the ignorant ones.

SteveNash
11-19-2010, 05:17 PM
That's a big "if" he started last season very strong as well, only to come back down to earth when it was said and done. Boozer will take away from his touches and also hinder his stats across the board. I'll need to see more from Noah before I can crown him Chitown's MVP, he has a habit of fading away as the season progresses.

He started the season strong then got slowed down by plantar fasciitis.


So you have to avg 15 apg to be considered a pass first PG? Lmfao

For starters, you have to shoot fewer than 20 times a game.

Cool007
11-19-2010, 05:52 PM
Hating? OK. Learn to read. I just said i like Rose's game. And that it is different than Rondo. Both style suits the team they are on. How is that hating? Rose is a better scorer, Rondo is a better distributor.

Deal with it.

I didn't say anything about Rondo.

You said Rose looks to score first and he is not a pass first point guard.

Which is utterly crap. Watch the game. He starts off the game by passing to Deng and Gibson as he wants them to get going but if they can't then he starts scoring and passing depending on what the opposing team gives him.

It's not his fault that his 2nd option is sucky shooting the ball and Gibson is his PF and Bogans is his starting SG.

Ofcourse Rondo is pretty darn good at distributing but that doesn't mean someone that is getting 9apg is not a passer or a pass first PG.

Get it??

Cool007
11-19-2010, 05:55 PM
Because ignorant Bulls fans are the only people on the planet that think that way. Not all of them, just the ignorant ones.

Or the ignorant Rondo/Celtics fans that think Rose is a scorer, not a pass first PG etc.

That is what I call ignorant. Just because Rose is also an elite scorer doesn't mean he is not a pass first PG.

n83417
11-19-2010, 06:08 PM
Or the ignorant Rondo/Celtics fans that think Rose is a scorer, not a pass first PG etc.

That is what I call ignorant. Just because Rose is also an elite scorer doesn't mean he is not a pass first PG.

What makes you think I am a fan of either? I am the one acknowledging that they are different style players.

n83417
11-19-2010, 06:08 PM
I didn't say anything about Rondo.

You said Rose looks to score first and he is not a pass first point guard.

Which is utterly crap. Watch the game. He starts off the game by passing to Deng and Gibson as he wants them to get going but if they can't then he starts scoring and passing depending on what the opposing team gives him.

It's not his fault that his 2nd option is sucky shooting the ball and Gibson is his PF and Bogans is his starting SG.

Ofcourse Rondo is pretty darn good at distributing but that doesn't mean someone that is getting 9apg is not a passer or a pass first PG.

Get it??


Meaning Rose is the 1st option?

FetusSmasher
11-19-2010, 06:40 PM
Why in every ****ing point guard thread I enter I see chicago bulls fans trying to prove people Rose is the best point guard in the league?

Where is this stated?

nightBULL
11-19-2010, 06:43 PM
Meaning Rose is the 1st option?

Meaning Boozer is injured

StriveGreatness
11-19-2010, 06:58 PM
Top 5 PG right now:

1. Chris Paul
2. Rajon Rondo
3. Deron Williams
4. Derrick Rose
5. Steve Nash

FetusSmasher
11-19-2010, 07:06 PM
I have a little problem with that list.

kswissdaf
11-19-2010, 07:28 PM
List is 1 rondo cp3 nash deron rose

Rafer17
11-19-2010, 10:02 PM
1 Chris Paul
2 Deron Williams
3 Rajon Rondo
4 Derrick Rose
5 Russell Westbrook
6. Steve Nash/John Wall

mlisica19
11-19-2010, 10:52 PM
Its not even the first quarter of the season yet, but from what i have seen in the last 2 seasons and mostly looking upon this season thus far I can honestly believe Rondo is no doubt a MVP candidate with 9 other guys without having to think to hard. As far as PGs go, he is no doubt in my mind top 3 but I think if i had time to think it over i would go with Paul as 1 and Rondo 2.

Lets leave Paul outta this for a sec and think about it.
Does Rondo really need to put up points to be the best PG? I dont think so, he is without a doubt the top 2 playmakers in the game. He dishes out the ball far better than anyone i can think of besides the guy i said leave out, yet he might still be a better playmaker. Most of his assits arent even recorded because he gets rid of it quick and simple most of the time getting everyone open, if there were secondary assists
im sure he would lead that too.

He is not a good shooter, but he hasnt let that stop him from having the celtics go the championship 3x. His defensive leadership is outstanding, a great front wall who is intelligent in knowing how to force players to different sides and his steals? Hes up there.

I go with Paul, Than Rondo

nbafan63
11-20-2010, 08:48 AM
Westbrook torched rondo. Westbrook showed rondo what a real pg is like that can also score. Yes its awesome running around in circles and throwing the ball in the air for your stacked team to dunk all the time and get nice assists. But it was clear today, Westbrook rocked rondos world and rondo ran to the bench crying about his foot.

Corey
11-20-2010, 08:53 AM
That's exactly what happened.

He got diagnosed with plantar fasciitis, and pulled a hamstring last night.

But hey, lets dismiss that and say he sucks.

nbafan63
11-20-2010, 08:59 AM
That's exactly what happened.

He got diagnosed with plantar fasciitis, and pulled a hamstring last night.

But hey, lets dismiss that and say he sucks.

I didn't say he suck. But he did get torched by Westbrook. Also, Rondo has been diagnosed with plantar faciatis for a couple of weeks now and he has refused to sit out games and says he feels fine. So he was able to play every game this yr and dish out 13+asst a game up till now. But the game he gets torched, his foot becomes a problem? Come on...

His face told the story...he knew he got owned.