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View Full Version : what's wrong with steve nash and deron williams?



FOBolous
10-29-2010, 01:22 PM
I don't know if it's early to panic but I'm starting to panic now because I have both of them on my fantasy basketball teams. Seriously though...wth? It seems like neither of them can get any assists. It seems like Nash can't get any assists with amare and deron can't get any assists without boozer. Two gamed into the season and neither of them got close to 10 assists yet. What's wrong with them?

ManRam
10-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Nothing is wrong. It's been 2 games. I'm sure they've both had two consecutive poor games in their career, and at more telling times (AKA not the first two games of the year, when teams are still figuring things out and players are still rusty).

Again, every time that you begin to think something is a long term actuality after just a game or two is an overreaction. This is definitely a case of that.

DenButsu
10-29-2010, 01:27 PM
I don't know if it's early to panic

The answer is: Yes, it's too early to panic.

braveniler58
10-29-2010, 01:31 PM
Remember, both PGs are playing with revamped teams. Let them have some time to get used to the new players, let the new players get used to the system, and let the chemistry build.

They both will be fine.

mikealike305
10-29-2010, 01:36 PM
amare and boozer..

jimbobjarree
10-29-2010, 01:39 PM
Deron looks out of shape and out of sync, like he hasnt bounced a basketball in 5 years. Its slightly worrying, but it is wayyy too early for any team to start panicking about anything.

DeyAce
10-29-2010, 01:40 PM
Replacing Amare with Hakim Warrick and Boozer with Al Jefferson.

ManRam
10-29-2010, 01:41 PM
amare and boozer..

Jefferson is better than Boozer, and Nash has proven he can play amazingly well without Amare. So I disagree. If anything, they just are getting used to their new surroundings. In a few games they'll be racking up the numbers per the usual.

LeBroom
10-29-2010, 01:47 PM
Warrick. :)

sep11ie
10-29-2010, 01:50 PM
2 words... NOTHING.

godolphins
10-29-2010, 01:51 PM
The season just started, plenty of basketball left to play.

mikealike305
10-29-2010, 01:52 PM
Jefferson is better than Boozer, and Nash has proven he can play amazingly well without Amare. So I disagree. If anything, they just are getting used to their new surroundings. In a few games they'll be racking up the numbers per the usual.

i prob should of said more than just "amare and boozer"....

what i meant was pretty much what u said, i didnt mean that they need amare and boozer to be good, i meant that its going to take some getting used to playing with out these guys. they'll adjust and get back on track, nothing to worry about

Gibby23
10-29-2010, 01:54 PM
Jefferson is better than Boozer, and Nash has proven he can play amazingly well without Amare. So I disagree. If anything, they just are getting used to their new surroundings. In a few games they'll be racking up the numbers per the usual.

When did that happen? From what I see, Boozer shots a higher %, is a better rebounder, and better defender.

jdub747
10-29-2010, 02:13 PM
D Will doesn't have that look he had in the playoffs, he needs to get that swagger back, the i can totally dominate any player in the nba swagger... hopefully he finds it sooner than later, and Nash didn't even look that bad.

Corey
10-29-2010, 02:26 PM
First week of the season.

Iron24th
10-29-2010, 02:30 PM
After 2 games??? Are you serious???

Chronz
10-29-2010, 02:47 PM
Look up their stats when those players have been out, there is no reason to worry, no 1 player ever has that big of an effect on a star

ManRam
10-29-2010, 03:00 PM
When did that happen? From what I see, Boozer shots a higher %, is a better rebounder, and better defender.

The only thing I'll agree wit is shooting a better %. Over their careers, they're pretty much equal defenders and rebounders per the numbers...but the eye test leads me to believe Jefferson is better. Jefferson is the far better shot blocker and just a more imposing defender in general. I also think given some space, he has a better offensive repertoire. Look, Jefferson has been stuck on a bad team with absolutely no perimeter threats. He's been the only guy defenses have worried about for the last three years. I think when he and Deron get on the same page, he's going to put up more impressive numbers. They'll be more easy to compare after this season since they will have played in the same exact system...

nolafan33
10-29-2010, 03:04 PM
Remember, both PGs are playing with revamped teams. Let them have some time to get used to the new players, let the new players get used to the system, and let the chemistry build.

They both will be fine.

Chris Paul is playing with 9 new teammates, a new headcoach, a brand new system, and is coming off of injury and had 17 points and 16 assists against a good Milwaukee team. So I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

Yanks All Day
10-29-2010, 03:10 PM
3 weeks later the same posters saying something is wrong with D-Will and Nash will be making threads debating CP3 vs D-Will for the best PG and praising Steve Nash for averaging around 12 assists per game with a relatively new team.

number1nykfan25
10-29-2010, 03:10 PM
I dont think Nash looked that bad at all. If Dragic can give minutes lke he did and Nash can play 33 minutes a game and rest for the playoffs i like the suns chances. I am surprised the suns rebounded so well against utah after portland loss especially away. If i were a utah fan i would be concerned a little.

Utahjazzfan18
10-29-2010, 03:21 PM
Utah is out of sync as a whole. It's not just Deron and it's hard to rack up assists when only one two guys are knocking down shots.

His dunk was awesome last night, same with Warrick's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkd8sIuASy8

Rafer17
10-30-2010, 12:06 AM
Right now Deron Williams is sucking *** for me on fantasy. He is truly embarassing...also, I am matched up with Rajon Rondo which makes things even worse

ink
10-30-2010, 12:30 AM
New season, big changes to their lineups. They're PGs. They always suffer the most when they have to run an offence with new faces. I'm actually amazed that Nash and the Suns are playing as well as they are. They've come a long way since the start of the pre-season and it looks like they're coming together. The Jazz will too.

RulerSlick
10-30-2010, 12:48 AM
replacing amare with hakim warrick and boozer with al jefferson.

:d

Hawkeye15
10-30-2010, 12:58 AM
why does everyone read so hard into the first handful of games of a season?

Mudvayne91
10-30-2010, 12:59 AM
I think Dwill is amazing. Losing Matthews and arguably the heart in Boozer is going to hurt. Personally, I'd take Dwill over CP3, but no doubt they're both beasts. Also, Nash is a HOF. No need to worry about either.

_Supreme_
10-30-2010, 09:04 AM
I don't know if it's early to panic but I'm starting to panic now because I have both of them on my fantasy basketball teams. Seriously though...wth? It seems like neither of them can get any assists. It seems like Nash can't get any assists with amare and deron can't get any assists without boozer. Two gamed into the season and neither of them got close to 10 assists yet. What's wrong with them?

Lol, I even have a team with both of them on it (+ a third point guard) losing the assists stat to Rajon Rondo alone this week.

Relax, these guys haven't suddenly become mediocre. The season is just starting, and I'm confident they will be going full speed ahead again within a couple of weeks. Just like Miami for example these are two teams who have to get used to their new lineups a bit.

JordansBulls
10-30-2010, 09:06 AM
I don't know if it's early to panic but I'm starting to panic now because I have both of them on my fantasy basketball teams. Seriously though...wth? It seems like neither of them can get any assists. It seems like Nash can't get any assists with amare and deron can't get any assists without boozer. Two gamed into the season and neither of them got close to 10 assists yet. What's wrong with them?

Steve Nash is like 36 so you can't expect him to be a top 10 guy much longer. And Deron is in a new system. Goes to show how much Boozer meant to him being a star.

Corey
10-30-2010, 09:11 AM
Goes to show how much Boozer meant to him being a star.
Er, what?

How can you make that judgment this early in the season?

...Jefferson is better than Boozer.

JordansBulls
10-30-2010, 09:13 AM
Er, what?

How can you make that judgment this early in the season?

...Jefferson is better than Boozer.

No he is not. Not really close either.

Corey
10-30-2010, 09:15 AM
I understand you like Boozer because he's on the Bulls now, but please...Humor me.

JordansBulls
10-30-2010, 09:36 AM
I understand you like Boozer because he's on the Bulls now, but please...Humor me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=boozeca01&y1=2010&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2010

Boozer kills him overall. Higher WS, higher WS/PER 48 minutes, much higher TS%, PER, etc


Then you compare them career and it is no contest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=boozeca01&y1=2010&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2011

Not to mention we are comparing a guy who led his team to the Conference Finals and upset Houston in round 1 outplaying Yao Ming and put up 35 and 14 in game 7 on the road.

Not to mention was the only allstar on the team as well.

Corey
10-30-2010, 09:45 AM
Win shares has as much to do with team as it does player. You know that.

Career number comparison is also pointless. Boozer has had Lebron and Deron his whole career. Jefferson has had .... Corey Brewer?

And the fact that you're highlighting ONE game where Boozer put up 35 points is awfully silly. Especially when it's against a team that is notorious for not being able to get out of the first round.

JordansBulls
10-30-2010, 09:51 AM
Win shares has as much to do with team as it does player. You know that.

Career number comparison is also pointless. Boozer has had Lebron and Deron his whole career. Jefferson has had .... Corey Brewer?

And the fact that you're highlighting ONE game where Boozer put up 35 points is awfully silly. Especially when it's against a team that is notorious for not being able to get out of the first round.

Al Jefferson had Prime Paul Pierce and made the playoffs and was out in round 1 with HCA and he averaged 6 ppg. And then he had prime Paul Pierce in 2007 and went 24-58.

Win Shares deals with how much a player contributes to the team winning.

Not to mention Boozer is a career 20 and 12 player on 50% FG in the playoffs, while Al is a career 6 and 6 player on 42% FG

Corey
10-30-2010, 10:23 AM
Al Jefferson had Prime Paul Pierce and made the playoffs and was out in round 1 with HCA and he averaged 6 ppg. And then he had prime Paul Pierce in 2007 and went 24-58.

Win Shares deals with how much a player contributes to the team winning.

Not to mention Boozer is a career 20 and 12 player on 50% FG in the playoffs, while Al is a career 6 and 6 player on 42% FG

Why are you even referencing 2004? Al Jefferson was a rookie, in his first year out of high school...so you're going to use that to knock him? Give me a break. He started one game the whole season.

You also reference 2007. You're aware Paul Pierce played in 47 games that season? You're really stretching for both of those.

I'm sorry, but you just lost all credibility with me with that argument. You're comparing playoff statistics of a guy that's played 7 career playoff games (in his rookie season, when he was 20), to a guy who has always had Lebron and Williams in the playoffs. That is far from a fair comparison.

Jefferson has been plagued with bad teams, and Boozer has never been a number 1 option. He's ALWAYS had someone to defer to to take pressure off of him.

He's a hell of a pick and roll player, but he's no where near as talented as Jefferson on the offensive end.

Raidaz4Life
10-30-2010, 10:27 AM
Er, what?

How can you make that judgment this early in the season?

...Jefferson is better than Boozer.

wrong

Corey
10-30-2010, 10:29 AM
Please add substance to your posts.

yankkiller
10-30-2010, 10:59 AM
I don't know if it's early to panic but I'm starting to panic now because I have both of them on my fantasy basketball teams. Seriously though...wth? It seems like neither of them can get any assists. It seems like Nash can't get any assists with amare and deron can't get any assists without boozer. Two gamed into the season and neither of them got close to 10 assists yet. What's wrong with them?

Ya i have nash on most of my teams williams no i don't have him, cuzz he really has no running mate. So williams i would look into a trade package and get jenning's. As far as nash there is a guy named Goran Dragic backing him up, i see his assists not being as high probally 9 a game, But the real reason why you keep nash is for his 3 ptm and FT% FG% ans ast to turnover ratio.

HeaTxRipZz
10-30-2010, 12:31 PM
Why are you even referencing 2004? Al Jefferson was a rookie, in his first year out of high school...so you're going to use that to knock him? Give me a break. He started one game the whole season.

You also reference 2007. You're aware Paul Pierce played in 47 games that season? You're really stretching for both of those.

I'm sorry, but you just lost all credibility with me with that argument. You're comparing playoff statistics of a guy that's played 7 career playoff games (in his rookie season, when he was 20), to a guy who has always had Lebron and Williams in the playoffs. That is far from a fair comparison.

Jefferson has been plagued with bad teams, and Boozer has never been a number 1 option. He's ALWAYS had someone to defer to to take pressure off of him.

He's a hell of a pick and roll player, but he's no where near as talented as Jefferson on the offensive end.

Well To be fair Lebron and Boozer never made it to the playoffs together. They played that one season together before Boozer packed his bags in Free Agency.

All in all stats as it shows currently is that Boozer is the better player. Fans will always have their own opinions and that's really what it's coming down to. Also let's be fair both Boozer and Jefferson switched teams around the same age so I don't think that factor should be brought up. Jeff had Pierce and for a season Boozer had Lebron and then Deron. The only differences in their careers were that Jefferson was forced to be the #1 option after being traded for KG while Boozer decided to be a legit #2 option. Nothing wrong with either path except Al just like Boozer isn't someone you can bank on as a #1 option any way you look at it.

I don't want to bring up skill wise because I've never watched Al play in real life. Never been a Celtic or Wolves fan so I don't want to talk out of my ***. But from all I've seen from Boozer over the years he's pretty damned skilled just a bit undersized and maybe that's where the difference is at. I've seen Boozer post up, Shoot the 15ft Jumper, Pick and Roll, etc. Not quite sure what all Al can do but not many bigs currently in the NBA have a wide range of abilities. Maybe someone can honestly tell me what Al brings to the table

Corey
10-30-2010, 01:09 PM
Most agree that he brings the best, or second best post moves in the league. The only player you can argue has a better post game than Jefferson is Pau Gasol, who is legitimately the best power forward in basketball right now.

Sadds The Gr8
10-30-2010, 01:27 PM
1) it's only 2 games into the season
2) they both lost all-star bigmen.

tangent12
10-30-2010, 01:30 PM
It's called "NBA premiere week".

magichatnumber9
10-30-2010, 01:32 PM
Most agree that he brings the best, or second best post moves in the league. The only player you can argue has a better post game than Jefferson is Pau Gasol, who is legitimately the best power forward in basketball right now.This dude has gotten so freakin good

astrosmaniac
10-30-2010, 01:38 PM
wrong

i dont know about better, but i do feel boozer's skill set fits better in Utah's pick and roll heavy offense than Jefferson

JordansBulls
10-30-2010, 01:47 PM
Why are you even referencing 2004? Al Jefferson was a rookie, in his first year out of high school...so you're going to use that to knock him? Give me a break. He started one game the whole season.

You also reference 2007. You're aware Paul Pierce played in 47 games that season? You're really stretching for both of those.

I'm sorry, but you just lost all credibility with me with that argument. You're comparing playoff statistics of a guy that's played 7 career playoff games (in his rookie season, when he was 20), to a guy who has always had Lebron and Williams in the playoffs. That is far from a fair comparison.

Jefferson has been plagued with bad teams, and Boozer has never been a number 1 option. He's ALWAYS had someone to defer to to take pressure off of him.

He's a hell of a pick and roll player, but he's no where near as talented as Jefferson on the offensive end.

I think this is the point. Al Jefferson was never good enough to get teams to the playoffs as the best player on the team. And so what he has only been in the playoffs as a rookie. It just goes to show that the reason he was in the playoffs wasn't because of his play but rather someone else's play.

Also you are wrong about Boozer. He was clearly the best player and the #1 option on the Jazz in 2007 and 2008 there is a reason he was the teams only allstar those years. Deron was the better player in 2009 and 2010 but in 2007 and 2008 when the Jazz were advancing it was Boozer by a fair margin.

And while Jefferson may have been plagued with bad teams, it still doesn't matter much because it is clear he wasn't as good as Boozer. You can have had the better teams all the time but at the same time have been the better player. Bird always had better teams than Dominique, but also has always been the better player. Kobe has always had the better teams than Pierce, but also has always been the better player.

You also say Jefferson is the better offensive player which is not true.

Boozer TS% is 57.7 while Jefferson's is 53.5%. Also Boozer's Offensive Rating is 112 to Jefferson's 108.

nightBULL
10-30-2010, 02:16 PM
First week of the season.

Your boy Rondo isn't having a problem with this.

el_primo_nano
10-30-2010, 02:20 PM
really? its been two games.. what a dweeb

Corey
10-30-2010, 05:13 PM
I think this is the point. Al Jefferson was never good enough to get teams to the playoffs as the best player on the team. And so what he has only been in the playoffs as a rookie. It just goes to show that the reason he was in the playoffs wasn't because of his play but rather someone else's play.

You're serious? So Al Jefferson chose to get drafted by a bad team....and chose to get traded to a bad team that wasn't playoff bound?

I guess Danny Granger sucks because he 'was never good enough to get teams to the playoffs' right?

What kind of logic is that?

Sly Guy
10-30-2010, 05:17 PM
I don't know if it's early to panic but I'm starting to panic now because I have both of them on my fantasy basketball teams. Seriously though...wth? It seems like neither of them can get any assists. It seems like Nash can't get any assists with amare and deron can't get any assists without boozer. Two gamed into the season and neither of them got close to 10 assists yet. What's wrong with them?

I think you can still get value out of Deron and Nash in your fantasy pool. Just trade Nash for Jamario Moon, and Deron for Darko Milicic.

DenButsu
10-31-2010, 12:41 AM
I would agree with JB that Boozer has clearly been the better player over the course of his career than Jefferson. But I also kind of feel like AJ's never really had much to play for, having always been stuck in Minny on a fairly bad team (sorry Wolves fans). So I look forward to seeing what happens to Jefferson this season, now that he's paired with one of the best PGs in the league, and is on a team that has a legit shot at competing for the division title and a high playoff seeding. We'll finally get to find out with a bit more clarity if he was the guy who was better than he seemed but in a bad situation, or the guy who was himself at least partly responsible for that bad situation.

rabzouz 96
10-31-2010, 02:22 AM
This dude has gotten so freakin good

nah, the competition on his position in the league has just become so weak

Rndy
10-31-2010, 03:08 AM
Corey you couldn't be more wrong on Boozer vs Jefferson. Granted JB pretty much screwed his entire argument using garbage stats and mixing them with good ones.

Boozer 577 TS%, 541 eFG, 18.3 TRB%

Jefferson 535 ts%, 503 eFG%, 17.6 TRB%

So Boozer has a better true shooting percentage, better efficiency, and better rebounding. Boozers DRtg is also lower then Jeffersons. So i'm curious what exactly makes him a better player?

Really the only thing I see better and not by a huge margin at all is he turns over the ball less and blocks more. Can't go wrong with either however i'd take the more efficient scorer any day of the week, whether it's a Bulls player or not.

Chicagofaithful
10-31-2010, 03:10 AM
Jefferson is better than Boozer, and Nash has proven he can play amazingly well without Amare. So I disagree. If anything, they just are getting used to their new surroundings. In a few games they'll be racking up the numbers per the usual.

you are incorrect

Denver-boy
10-31-2010, 04:27 AM
al jefferson cant replace boozer, boozers one of te best scoring bigman night to night.... that team looked pretty bad when nugz vsed them imo we never dominate them like that

More-Than-Most
10-31-2010, 05:03 AM
Nash has been scoring more... That been said I have watched all 3 games and its not him... He is giving guys easy jump shots and they are just missing... Against the Lakers the other night he could have easily had 15 assists but guys were missing wide open shots. I have not watched Williams enough to comment on him... Against the suns he didn't seem to bad.

Bulls_fan90
10-31-2010, 05:16 AM
Please add substance to your posts.


Er, what?

How can you make that judgment this early in the season?

...Jefferson is better than Boozer.

hypocrite much :facepalm:

Also i'd like to hear your response to this.


Corey you couldn't be more wrong on Boozer vs Jefferson. Granted JB pretty much screwed his entire argument using garbage stats and mixing them with good ones.

Boozer 577 TS%, 541 eFG, 18.3 TRB%

Jefferson 535 ts%, 503 eFG%, 17.6 TRB%

So Boozer has a better true shooting percentage, better efficiency, and better rebounding. Boozers DRtg is also lower then Jeffersons. So i'm curious what exactly makes him a better player?

Really the only thing I see better and not by a huge margin at all is he turns over the ball less and blocks more. Can't go wrong with either however i'd take the more efficient scorer any day of the week, whether it's a Bulls player or not.

Kashmir13579
10-31-2010, 05:45 AM
Warrick. :)

i really like Warrick.

CityofChaos
10-31-2010, 06:07 AM
I feel bad for Deron to be honest. Their defense is solid but their offense remains to be subpar. Its sad to see him take out all his frustration out on Hayward.

TheGoodGerman
10-31-2010, 06:36 AM
Uhm ... whats wrong with YOU, thread opener !?











Not Nash's fault nor is it Deron Williams' fault, that the guys they are passing the ball to, don't make their shots. Only 1 week of season ... this thread is really ... ugh.

dodie53
10-31-2010, 08:27 AM
First week of the season.

i hope you're right

koreancabbage
10-31-2010, 12:21 PM
i hope you're right

well he is right, cuz it is the first week of the season. =P

Hawkeye15
10-31-2010, 12:25 PM
Your boy Rondo isn't having a problem with this.

he is playing with the same lineup and scheme he has been playing for 3 years now. Deron and Nash has new players, etc.

Hawkeye15
10-31-2010, 12:29 PM
as for Jefferson vs Boozer, my take is this. Jefferson is by FAR a better on the block scorer. He is an able defender. But he has played for a team that has zero perimeter help, so the opposing defenses just ganged up on him. Jefferson is not the best passer, and can't run, but that won't matter in Utah. I think we all need to see what Jefferson looks like being fully healthy again, and in a new system with a great PG and coach, let alone a stable environment. I would expect Jefferson to have at least as good of a season as Boozer this year. As for their pasts, Jefferson had a 22/11 year, and a 23/11 year before getting hurt. The talent is there. Maybe now that he is in a winning scenario he will play harder. We all know what Boozer is. We will now be able to judge who is better in about 79 games, because AJ will have the same expectations as Boozer

heattiltheend94
10-31-2010, 12:30 PM
First week of the season.

More like first 4 days of the season. People worry too much.

Kakaroach
10-31-2010, 12:34 PM
Its just a matter of chemistry with both. Deron Williams hasn't been on the same page as Big Al and Raja and I'm sure the same is true with Nash and all of the Suns players. Just give it longer than 2 games.

MJ-BULLS
10-31-2010, 12:39 PM
No tienen NADA.

Antipod
10-31-2010, 01:16 PM
They`ll be fine, but i have a felling that Rondo and CP3 will rule at assists department.

momoneyyyy
10-31-2010, 02:26 PM
its only 2 games comeon mann!!!!