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View Full Version : MVP = Best Offensive Player Award?



TheHoopsProphet
10-27-2010, 04:17 PM
Okay, so i was going to make that peanut butter and saltine cracker sandwich right now but then I came across my Nash poster and then it hit me.

Are MVPs really just best offensive player of the year awards with ocassional mentions of defense? Dwite Hayword should have won it last year or even the year before, but he already won DPOY. and there really is no OPOY, so I guess they use the MVP for this?

I mean Kelvin Durant was a terrible defender last year, and now hes being discussed in MVP talks. Same with the Carmelo hype last year, greaat offensive player but terrible defender.

Niro
10-27-2010, 04:29 PM
well great offensive player always get more recognition than great defensive player

check: battier,artest, josh smith, gerald wallace,Sefolosha vs durant,ellis,melo

that beeing said you win mvp when you constantly win games for your team (having the most impact)...thats what guys like durant and melo do. howard does the same thing just on d not on o. thats why he gets recognition as well

Chronz
10-27-2010, 04:30 PM
Durant was a terrible defender? Based on what?

TheHoopsProphet
10-27-2010, 04:34 PM
Based on his +/-. Hes a good help defender but thats it.

And Carmen Anthony definitely helped the Nuggets win games, but Chase Billups was a big part of that too.

Every year the leading scorer in the league always finishes in the top 3 MVP, while the DPOY never gets more than a couple 1st place votes and ends up 5 or 6th.

Niro
10-27-2010, 04:38 PM
Durant was a terrible defender? Based on what?

i wouldnt say he was terrible, i think medicore is the right way to put it (he has all the tools to be a great defender though...i expect him to be that this season)

JdKing7
10-27-2010, 04:49 PM
dwight hayword? Chase billups? Who are they

thescore53
10-27-2010, 04:52 PM
dwight hayword? Chase billups? Who are they

i think that's helllacrooners duplicate account. :laugh2:

KnicksorBust
10-27-2010, 04:56 PM
I mean Kelvin Durant was a terrible defender last year, and now hes being discussed in MVP talks. .

So wrong.

Law25
10-27-2010, 05:28 PM
Okay, so i was going to make that peanut butter and saltine cracker sandwich right now but then I came across my Nash poster and then it hit me.

Are MVPs really just best offensive player of the year awards with ocassional mentions of defense? Dwite Hayword should have won it last year or even the year before, but he already won DPOY. and there really is no OPOY, so I guess they use the MVP for this?

I mean Kelvin Durant was a terrible defender last year, and now hes being discussed in MVP talks. Same with the Carmelo hype last year, greaat offensive player but terrible defender.

I dont think so based on two things.

1. Nash wasnt the best offensive player in 05/06 Kobe was. Kobe was playing out of his mind just to be an seven seed in the west. Kobe was also more known in the game at the time.

2. Nash plays absolutely no D.

I know its hard to belive but the MVP goes to the best player on the best team. Nash was the best players on the Suns with an exciting explosive team that was winning. This year would be Dwights best chance, but dont be surprised if Kobe takes it, or if Durant's team can crack one of the top three best records in the league.

Lou Holtz Lisp
10-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Dwite Hayword, Carmen Anthony, Kelvin Durant, Chase Billups. lol.

asandhu23
10-27-2010, 05:36 PM
ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahsahahaa hahahagsuhjdfcduyurbufdf

Carey
10-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Based on his +/-. Hes a good help defender but thats it.

And Carmen Anthony definitely helped the Nuggets win games, but Chase Billups was a big part of that too.

Every year the leading scorer in the league always finishes in the top 3 MVP, while the DPOY never gets more than a couple 1st place votes and ends up 5 or 6th.

Analyze skill set first before u go to plus/minus. He's a pretty solid defender thats getting better all the time. Did you watch him guard Kobe in the playoffs?

DerekRE_3
10-27-2010, 06:02 PM
Durant was a terrible defender? Based on what?

They are probably basing it on his first two years in the league. Durant isn't great defensively, but he got a lot better in year 3. His defensive potential is insane with his length and quickness. I'm too lazy to bust out my synergy stats to support his improvement in year 3 though.

lavilevi23
10-27-2010, 06:11 PM
Yep Durant's D is not so good. I guess that "best player on the best team" method has somehow stopped. Now its the league's leading scorer that plays no D on a 4th seed team. This is sad because if that was the case 2 seasons ago, Wade should've won it.

Saad
10-27-2010, 06:18 PM
No, Or Kobe would've won it when he averaged 36. He got robbed either way.

mavwar53
10-27-2010, 06:43 PM
To answer the question at hand NO

dodie53
10-28-2010, 12:00 AM
Dwite Hayword, Carmen Anthony, Kelvin Durant, Chase Billups. lol.

new nba players?
hehe

Raps18-19 Champ
10-28-2010, 12:02 AM
Garnett and Duncan have won it mostly based on their defense.

HoopsMachine
10-28-2010, 09:25 AM
Okay, so i was going to make that peanut butter and saltine cracker sandwich right now but then I came across my Nash poster and then it hit me.

Are MVPs really just best offensive player of the year awards with ocassional mentions of defense? Dwite Hayword should have won it last year or even the year before, but he already won DPOY. and there really is no OPOY, so I guess they use the MVP for this?

I mean Kelvin Durant was a terrible defender last year, and now hes being discussed in MVP talks. Same with the Carmelo hype last year, greaat offensive player but terrible defender.

It's called the Scoring Title which Durant won last year... :facepalm:

redsox0717
10-28-2010, 10:31 AM
Based on his +/-. Hes a good help defender but thats it.

Judging an individual player's defense on +/- is so unbelievably flawed I don't know where to begin, so I won't even say anything.

jkcronyn
10-28-2010, 10:52 AM
hahah god that is the dumbest thing I've ever read on here... someone's defense based on plus minus? god if a team has a bad game it drops by 25, ridiculous

ballpd05
10-28-2010, 11:34 AM
MVP means the best player (or one that does the most) on one of the four best teams.

HoopsDrive
10-28-2010, 12:33 PM
It's called the Scoring Title which Durant won last year... :facepalm:

The scoring title is not an award. It's an informal title given to the top scorer of the league for a season but there's no trophy being given out like the MVP, MIP, ROY, etc.

saintdrew
10-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Okay, so i was going to make that peanut butter and saltine cracker sandwich right now but then I came across my Nash poster and then it hit me.

Are MVPs really just best offensive player of the year awards with ocassional mentions of defense? Dwite Hayword should have won it last year or even the year before, but he already won DPOY. and there really is no OPOY, so I guess they use the MVP for this?

I mean Kelvin Durant was a terrible defender last year, and now hes being discussed in MVP talks. Same with the Carmelo hype last year, greaat offensive player but terrible defender.

I like the thread, TheHoopsProphet but honestly I think you're a little late to the party. I was talking about this on the football forum but awards such as:

NFL MVP
NBA MVP
The Heisman Trophy

^ Are seemingly becoming jokes in my opinion. Especially the Heisman. I would say right now the NBA MVP is the least of becoming a joke out of the 3 because LeBron James did deserve one of the last two, however there has been mistakes in recent years,

Starting with:

~2001-2002 MVP Tim Duncan - a complete joke right here. Duncan is a great player but how in the hell do you not give the award to Jason Kidd that season? Before arriving to New Jersey the Nets were 26-56, and the year Kidd arrives they go 52-30?

Oh by the way in case you're wondering, the Nets had NEVER won 50 games in a season, nor advanced passed the 2nd round of the playoffs. That year with Kidd, they win 52 and reach the Finals.

NBA completely robbed Jason Kidd that season.

You can even make your case that the following year he should have won the award but the 2001-2002 season was most deserving for Kidd.

~2006-2007 MVP Dirk Nowitzki - this was not as bad as the Duncan MVP from 01-02 but I just felt like Steve Nash should have won the award for the 3rd straight time. Nash did nothing but improve his stats from the previous year. Including leading the league in APG, FG%, and averaging over 18PPG. Oh and the Suns won their division. While the Mavericks lost to the Oakland Warriors in the 1st round-- which takes nothing away from Dirk but if you're the MVP you're supposed to lead your team I guess over the 8th seed who barely made it in.

~2007-2008 MVP Kobe Bryant - I know I'll get a bunch of hate for this but I think the award should have gone to Chris Paul...Yeah call me a homer but what he did for the Hornets that year was amazing. Taking the Hornets 1 game away from the Western Conference Finals, leading the league in APG and STL, while winning our first division title. I'm sure the voters were just foaming at the mouth to finally crown Kobe and place him on a pedestal. Kobe is great but CP3 was most deserving that season, IMO.

~2008-2009 MVP LeBron James - Again, probably more hate but this should have been the season when Kobe won 1st MVP trophy. Lakers were 65-17, Kobe started and played in all 82 games, & was extremely efficient, leading the Lakers to the Finals.

So my point is that the writers literally create the "legends" for us, while ESPN exaggerates it even more with their corny videos narrated by Stuart Scott using his nicknames for everyone. I just feel like these awards are not being won by the most deserving player.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Sactown
10-28-2010, 01:28 PM
I like the thread, TheHoopsProphet but honestly I think you're a little late to the party. I was talking about this on the football forum but awards such as:

NFL MVP
NBA MVP
The Heisman Trophy

^ Are seemingly becoming jokes in my opinion. Especially the Heisman. I would say right now the NBA MVP is the least of becoming a joke out of the 3 because LeBron James did deserve one of the last two, however there has been mistakes in recent years,

Starting with:

~2001-2002 MVP Tim Duncan - a complete joke right here. Duncan is a great player but how in the hell do you not give the award to Jason Kidd that season? Before arriving to New Jersey the Nets were 26-56, and the year Kidd arrives they go 52-30?

Oh by the way in case you're wondering, the Nets had NEVER won 50 games in a season, nor advanced passed the 2nd round of the playoffs. That year with Kidd, they win 52 and reach the Finals.

NBA completely robbed Jason Kidd that season.

You can even make your case that the following year he should have won the award but the 2001-2002 season was most deserving for Kidd.

~2006-2007 MVP Dirk Nowitzki - this was not as bad as the Duncan MVP from 01-02 but I just felt like Steve Nash should have won the award for the 3rd straight time. Nash did nothing but improve his stats from the previous year. Including leading the league in APG, FG%, and averaging over 18PPG. Oh and the Suns won their division. While the Mavericks lost to the Oakland Warriors in the 1st round-- which takes nothing away from Dirk but if you're the MVP you're supposed to lead your team I guess over the 8th seed who barely made it in.

~2007-2008 MVP Kobe Bryant - I know I'll get a bunch of hate for this but I think the award should have gone to Chris Paul...Yeah call me a homer but what he did for the Hornets that year was amazing. Taking the Hornets 1 game away from the Western Conference Finals, leading the league in APG and STL, while winning our first division title. I'm sure the voters were just foaming at the mouth to finally crown Kobe and place him on a pedestal. Kobe is great but CP3 was most deserving that season, IMO.

~2008-2009 MVP LeBron James - Again, probably more hate but this should have been the season when Kobe won 1st MVP trophy. Lakers were 65-17, Kobe started and played in all 82 games, & was extremely efficient, leading the Lakers to the Finals.

So my point is that the writers literally create the "legends" for us, while ESPN exaggerates it even more with their corny videos narrated by Stuart Scott using his nicknames for everyone. I just feel like these awards are not being won by the most deserving player.

Anyone else feel the same way?
I'd have to agree on all counts except for the 2nd time Lebron won his MVP which I think he deserved considering the cast Kobe had was pretty great.. especially compared to Lebrons.. plus LJ gives you more than just points he gets the assists and rebounds, which Kobe does bring to the table just not like Lebron does.. plus Lebron covers the oppositions best offensive player while Kobe doesn't which means Lebron has to play hard on both sides of the court.

saintdrew
10-28-2010, 01:59 PM
I'd have to agree on all counts except for the 2nd time Lebron won his MVP which I think he deserved considering the cast Kobe had was pretty great.. especially compared to Lebrons.. plus LJ gives you more than just points he gets the assists and rebounds, which Kobe does bring to the table just not like Lebron does.. plus Lebron covers the oppositions best offensive player while Kobe doesn't which means Lebron has to play hard on both sides of the court.

^ Oh no for sure... The 2nd MVP award for LeBron James was very deserving.

And the Kobe comment is spot on. Do the Lakers go to the Finals without trading for Pau Gasol? I think NOT.

Just a lot of these awards are becoming jokes = basically who the media chooses to put on a pedestal.

I mean don't even get me started with the Heisman trophy... I could go days talking about how misconstrued & undeserving that award is now.


Jason White? Really Heisman Trophy voters?

Playa4life
10-28-2010, 03:31 PM
EXACTLY!!! If It was based on Offense, There is NO better OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN A GAME OTHER THAN KOBE BRYANT FOR LAST 10 + YEARS IN NBA!!! KOBE GOT ROBBED BY THE LEAGUE FOR 2-3 MVP'S He should have got then If it was based on Offense!! 2 scoring TITLES 36 ppg..... COME ON GIVE ME A BREAK!!! MVP AWARD IS A POPULARITY CONTEST which DONT MEAN JACK!!! FINALS MVP IS WHAT COUNTS!!! You can take that to BANK!!! :clap:

saintdrew
10-28-2010, 03:37 PM
EXACTLY!!! If It was based on Offense, There is NO better OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN A GAME OTHER THAN KOBE BRYANT FOR LAST 10 + YEARS IN NBA!!! KOBE GOT ROBBED BY THE LEAGUE FOR 2-3 MVP'S He should have got then If it was based on Offense!! 2 scoring TITLES 36 ppg..... COME ON GIVE ME A BREAK!!! MVP AWARD IS A POPULARITY CONTEST which DONT MEAN JACK!!! FINALS MVP IS WHAT COUNTS!!! You can take that to BANK!!! :clap:

You should probably slow down on the cocaine. :ohno::bang::dance::puke:

TheHoopsProphet
10-28-2010, 03:41 PM
EXACTLY!!! If It was based on Offense, There is NO better OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN A GAME OTHER THAN KOBE BRYANT FOR LAST 10 + YEARS IN NBA!!! KOBE GOT ROBBED BY THE LEAGUE FOR 2-3 MVP'S He should have got then If it was based on Offense!! 2 scoring TITLES 36 ppg..... COME ON GIVE ME A BREAK!!! MVP AWARD IS A POPULARITY CONTEST which DONT MEAN JACK!!! FINALS MVP IS WHAT COUNTS!!! You can take that to BANK!!! :clap:

Colby bryant is the best, fuh the rest!

numba1CHANGsta
10-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Anyone who averages 35 points or more in a season should automatically win the MVP! Only 4 players have ever achieved that and Kobe was robbed in 2005-2006! Thats like hitting 55 HR's or throwing 45 TD's

ballpd05
10-28-2010, 05:17 PM
Kobe's team was like the 7th seed though. U will never win the award with a team that is that low in the standings. And he had a decent players in Lamar Odom and Caron Butler.

Steve Nash took an irrelevant Suns team and turned them into a powerhouse, much like J Kidd did the Nets. So in that aspect I understand why Nash beat out Kobe for it.

P.S. If the Pau trade had not happened the Hornets would have been the 1 seed, the Lakers would have been like the 4 or 5 seed, and CP3 would have run away with MVP. Sometimes team success regardless of who one has as a supporting cast (and popularity) get u MVP votes.

avrpatsfan
10-28-2010, 05:31 PM
MVP is Most Valuable Player AKA the player who helps his team the most. KD's offense can override his so called "mediocre" defense in the way he helps his team.

bklynny67
10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
No, Or Kobe would've won it when he averaged 36. He got robbed either way.

it makes it less impressive when he averaged 27 shots per game in order to get those 35 ppg

kblo247
10-28-2010, 10:01 PM
it makes it less impressive when he averaged 27 shots per game in order to get those 35 ppg

While being the primary defender and facilitator of an offense that was totally new to everyone but him and Walton, and having a starting group of Kwame, Smush, Walton/Mihm, and Odom in the West on the way to the seventh seed?

kblo247
10-28-2010, 10:07 PM
Kobe's team was like the 7th seed though. U will never win the award with a team that is that low in the standings. And he had a decent players in Lamar Odom and Caron Butler.

Steve Nash took an irrelevant Suns team and turned them into a powerhouse, much like J Kidd did the Nets. So in that aspect I understand why Nash beat out Kobe for it.

P.S. If the Pau trade had not happened the Hornets would have been the 1 seed, the Lakers would have been like the 4 or 5 seed, and CP3 would have run away with MVP. Sometimes team success regardless of who one has as a supporting cast (and popularity) get u MVP votes.

The problem with you saying this is that that group was like the 5th or 6th seed when healthy. The trio also only played 44 games together that season because of injuries. If that wasn't enough the coach quit, George and Divac missed all but a fourth of the season, Malone decided to hunt Mexican girls, Grant was hobbled, and to make matter worse Atkins played a full year as the starting PG.

Nash and Q were great, but that Suns team was a playoff group the year before if Amare doesn't miss the start of the season. They dealt Marbury and Penny for cash, but the fact is Amare and Marion were carrying weight and on a playoff squad when healthy (and Marbury was the PG). Nash made them a perennial 50 win team to his credit. So he and Kidd were in no way similar since Kidd took a perennial bad team to the finals twice while never getting his proper recognition and hardware.

I do think Shaq should have won in 05.

ragee
10-28-2010, 10:31 PM
~2006-2007 MVP Dirk Nowitzki - this was not as bad as the Duncan MVP from 01-02 but I just felt like Steve Nash should have won the award for the 3rd straight time. Nash did nothing but improve his stats from the previous year. Including leading the league in APG, FG%, and averaging over 18PPG. Oh and the Suns won their division. While the Mavericks lost to the Oakland Warriors in the 1st round-- which takes nothing away from Dirk but if you're the MVP you're supposed to lead your team I guess over the 8th seed who barely made it in.

You are not even looking at what Dirk did that year... You're saying Nash raised his stats? What about Dirk's stats? Sure, his PPG went down but he scored more efficiently... He also raised his APG... The Suns won their division? The Mavs finished with the best record! Not only that, they won 67 games! That is not easy to accomplish... Then you brought up the 1st round exit which is not really relevant but since its out there, I think that early exit just showed that Dirk wass the reason why they won 67 games because when the Warriors TRIPLE TEAMED him, no one in the team was able to do anything...

I think the DuncanVSKidd could have gone either way... Maybe they should have made them co-MVPS... On the other stuff, I completely agree with you..

Sandman
10-28-2010, 10:32 PM
Dwight has put up 20 per in the past its not like he's terrible. He's on a team where a lot of guys touch the ball.

saintdrew
10-28-2010, 11:44 PM
You are not even looking at what Dirk did that year... You're saying Nash raised his stats? What about Dirk's stats? Sure, his PPG went down but he scored more efficiently... He also raised his APG... The Suns won their division? The Mavs finished with the best record! Not only that, they won 67 games! That is not easy to accomplish... Then you brought up the 1st round exit which is not really relevant but since its out there, I think that early exit just showed that Dirk wass the reason why they won 67 games because when the Warriors TRIPLE TEAMED him, no one in the team was able to do anything...

I think the DuncanVSKidd could have gone either way... Maybe they should have made them co-MVPS... On the other stuff, I completely agree with you..

Well... I don't know how that makes sense because if the Warriors 'triple-teamed' Dirk Nowitzki then wouldn't that leave other guys open on the floor to make shots?

I mean that year for the MVP is a toss-up I guess... because their are legitimate arguments on both sides but honestly, the Duncan - Kidd MVP season was such BS.

ragee
10-29-2010, 11:57 AM
Well... I don't know how that makes sense because if the Warriors 'triple-teamed' Dirk Nowitzki then wouldn't that leave other guys open on the floor to make shots?

I mean that year for the MVP is a toss-up I guess... because their are legitimate arguments on both sides but honestly, the Duncan - Kidd MVP season was such BS.

Exactly! Every time Dirk gets the ball, they closed in on him... They also had Don Nelson who was Dirk's long time coach who knew a lot about Dirk... What did the rest of the Mavs do? Nothing... Does that mean that the early exit was a knock on Dirk or does that prove that Dirk was the reason why they won the 67 wins? Dirk deserved the MVP award that year even if they lost in the first round... It is no toss up... Nash improved but so did Dirk... Nash's team finish with the best record in their division but Dirk's team finish with the best record in the league with 67 wins... How many teams have won 65+ in t?he history of the NBA?

MrFastBreak
10-29-2010, 02:44 PM
It's called the Scoring Title which Durant won last year... :facepalm:

LOL, what makes you think that's an award? Scoring is only 1 part of offense and also being the leader in scoring doesnt correlate with great/best scoring anyways. That's not to take anything away from KD who had excellent scoring efficiency (.607 TS%)


Yep Durant's D is not so good. I guess that "best player on the best team" method has somehow stopped. Now its the league's leading scorer that plays no D on a 4th seed team. This is sad because if that was the case 2 seasons ago, Wade should've won it.

But, what are you guys basing this on? Lemme guess, your eyes. If so, why only use your eyes knowing they can deceive, alter your opinion and guide you to the wrong theory? I know this will disinterest you, but why not use stats (and not raw ones like +/-) to confirm or mend what you THOUGHT you saw?

Atownballa5
10-29-2010, 03:06 PM
sir your spelling is horrendous

tredigs
10-29-2010, 03:30 PM
Although some of the posters are definitely right that +/- is not the be-all-end-all of defense (for about 5 reasons), it does indeed give a decent indication. And, unlike year 1 + 2 when "Kelvin Durant" was still a work in progress on the defensive end, he absolutely tore it up in all aspects last season. Which probably helps to explain why his +/- was TOP 3 IN THE LEAGUE last year (1, 2 or 3 depending on the type you use).

But that said, MVP is definitely more favorable to the offensive standouts, and whoever is the hot ticket item in the mass media at the time (coaches + GM's are definitely susceptible to this as well).

In closing, awards are 75% bull ****. Once you obtain an image in the league, it's tough to dissuade others of change (I'm looking at you, Kobe Bryant 2010 1st team All NBA defense).