PDA

View Full Version : D12 one of the more underated superstars in the league??



Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 12:53 AM
It amazes me how many people it seems like sleep on D12...Whenever people talk about him the first thing they say is he has no post game...people talk about D12 on O like he's ben wallace or something...Sure his post game has some to be desired, but his jump hook is decent and he still gets you around 20 ppg per game...

I dont know if some people understand how big of an impact his D has on the game... Orl was the #1 defensive team in the league this last season, and their only good individual defenders were pietrus and barnes...The reason was 90% because of Howard...He's arguably the most dominant defensive player of ALL TIME....or at least they any of us have probably seen.. .There's never be a big that can do ALL of what he does defensively with his size and athleticism...

With all I mentioned it seems a lot of people have a hard time putting him in the top 5 yet many will put Durant top 5 maybe even top 2 or 3...Which has a bigger impact on the game D12's defense or Durants scoring?? Its def D12s D... Put D12 on ANY team in the league and they will have a top 3 defense..

The only players in the league who are elite players on both o & d are probably kobe, lbj, wade, and cp3...those to me are the only players that should be held above d12..because of how good he is defensively and still putting up close to 20 ppg on 10 shots...

black1605
10-21-2010, 12:57 AM
It amazes me how many people it seems like sleep on D12...Whenever people talk about him the first thing they say is he has no post game...people talk about D12 on O like he's ben wallace or something...Sure his post game has some to be desired, but his jump hook is decent and he still gets you around 20 ppg per game...

I dont know if some people understand how big of an impact his D has on the game... Orl was the #1 defensive team in the league this last season, and their only good individual defenders were pietrus and barnes...The reason was 90% because of Howard...He's arguably the most dominant defensive player of ALL TIME....or at least they any of us have probably seen.. .There's never be a big that can do ALL of what he does defensively with his size and athleticism...

With all I mentioned it seems a lot of people have a hard time putting him in the top 5 yet many will put Durant top 5 maybe even top 2 or 3...Which has a bigger impact on the game D12's defense or Durants scoring?? Its def D12s D... Put D12 on ANY team in the league and they will have a top 3 defense..

The only players in the league who are elite players on both o & d are probably kobe, lbj, wade, and cp3...those to me are the only players that should be held above d12..because of how good he is defensively and still putting up close to 20 ppg on 10 shots...

Based on what exactly? Charlotte allowed the fewest points per game last season, Orlando was fourth.

CBCable
10-21-2010, 01:00 AM
try overrated. he aint no prime shaq.

D Roses Bulls
10-21-2010, 01:03 AM
try overrated. he aint no prime shaq.

overrated??? the best center in the NBA is overrated who is only 24 years old :confused:

black1605
10-21-2010, 01:04 AM
He definitely isn't overrated, but he isn't underrated either.

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 01:06 AM
Based on what exactly? Charlotte allowed the fewest points per game last season, Orlando was fourth.

FG% allowed

JLynn943
10-21-2010, 01:07 AM
It amazes me how many people it seems like sleep on D12...Whenever people talk about him the first thing they say is he has no post game...people talk about D12 on O like he's ben wallace or something...Sure his post game has some to be desired, but his jump hook is decent and he still gets you around 20 ppg per game...

I dont know if some people understand how big of an impact his D has on the game... Orl was the #1 defensive team in the league this last season, and their only good individual defenders were pietrus and barnes...The reason was 90% because of Howard...He's arguably the most dominant defensive player of ALL TIME....or at least they any of us have probably seen.. .There's never be a big that can do ALL of what he does defensively with his size and athleticism...

With all I mentioned it seems a lot of people have a hard time putting him in the top 5 yet many will put Durant top 5 maybe even top 2 or 3...Which has a bigger impact on the game D12's defense or Durants scoring?? Its def D12s D... Put D12 on ANY team in the league and they will have a top 3 defense..

The only players in the league who are elite players on both o & d are probably kobe, lbj, wade, and cp3...those to me are the only players that should be held above d12..because of how good he is defensively and still putting up close to 20 ppg on 10 shots...

I agree that he's underrated (at least on here), but you really should have left out that bolded paragraph

And CP3 is elite on defense?

black1605
10-21-2010, 01:08 AM
Oh ok, so they are the best defensive team, just not according to the most important defensive stat, gotcha.

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 01:09 AM
I agree that he's underrated (at least on here), but you really should have left out that bolded paragraph

And CP3 is elite on defense?

What part in bold should I have left out??

Yea cp3 is...the coaches voted him 1st team all D when he was healthy

CBCable
10-21-2010, 01:11 AM
slam recently ranked dwight #5 in the nba. i think the general fan sentiment reflects that ranking.

that, to me, is too high.

thus i deem him overrated

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 01:12 AM
Oh ok, so they are the best defensive team, just not according to the most important defensive stat, gotcha.

You think points allowed is more important that Fg% allowed?? :facepalm:

Char was 28th in the league in pts scored a game... If you play at a slower pace your going to allow less pts, because there will be less possessions....which is why fg% is a better judge

Switch
10-21-2010, 01:14 AM
He's not underrated or overrated.

black1605
10-21-2010, 01:19 AM
Charlotte allowed 1.5 less points a game, while allowing 1% higher field goal percentage. All I'm saying, is don't proclaim Orlando the number one defensive team in the league. It is at least very debatable.

JiffyMix88
10-21-2010, 01:22 AM
talking about eminem's band?!?!

Hellcrooner
10-21-2010, 01:24 AM
on the contrary he is overated , he has the potential to be THE BEST PLAYER in the league if .....welll.......if he learns HOW TO PLAY instead of relying in his freakish body.

But for the time being he is just that a nice potential dude that needs to lern HOW to use his god given body for the sport.

e is freuantly tak asn best center in the league and top 5 player when in reality he is still FAR from both accounts.

JLynn943
10-21-2010, 01:26 AM
What part in bold should I have left out??

Yea cp3 is...the coaches voted him 1st team all D when he was healthy

"best ever" comments are just going to get people flaming

As far as Paul, I think his defense gets too much credit based on his ability to steal. The rest seems lacking. :shrug:

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 01:27 AM
on the contrary he is overated , he has the potential to be THE BEST PLAYER in the league if .....welll.......if he learns HOW TO PLAY instead of relying in his freakish body.

But for the time being he is just that a nice potential dude that needs to lern HOW to use his god given body for the sport.

e is freuantly tak asn best center in the league and top 5 player when in reality he is still FAR from both accounts.

Please tell me who the best center in the league is since he's from it according to you??

WolvesJagsOs
10-21-2010, 01:32 AM
He's not underrated or overrated.

agreed.

Hoopsadvocate
10-21-2010, 01:52 AM
on defense hes ratted just fine all nba 1st team dpoy awards so hes right where hes suppose to be. On offense he is overrated. Why? because no "dominant" center only gets 20ppg. Sorry thats not dominant. But hes getting better i saw his bank shot improve last year and hope to see him take it up another notch but hes not as great as ur making him out to be.

macc
10-21-2010, 02:20 AM
:cool:
on defense hes ratted just fine all nba 1st team dpoy awards so hes right where hes suppose to be. On offense he is overrated. Why? because no "dominant" center only gets 20ppg. Sorry thats not dominant. But hes getting better i saw his bank shot improve last year and hope to see him take it up another notch but hes not as great as ur making him out to be.



I guess I've never understood why people need to see 25+ ppg to be a dominant offensive player. Dwight Howard has been right around 20ppg the last few years. That's on a team with Vince Carter, Jameer Nelson, Rashard Lewis, MP and a pelethra of other role players and reserves who can score 20ppg any given night. I dont' expect Dwight to avg 25ppg on a team like that. Now if he was on the Nets or Pacers, then yes I could see it. A team as talented and as deep as Orlando, I don't think it should be a knock he's around 20 and not 25ppg.

Your knowlegable sports fans would see that Dwight was #1 in fg% last year and either 1 or 2 the year prior. He gets the most flack for his offense, yet he has a higher fg% then EVERYONE else in the NBA. hmmm

You mix his offense with his stellar defense and you see what type of impact he has on the game. He makes entire offenses change the way they play because he's at the rim.

As stated in the first post, MP and Barnes were the only above average defenders on Orlando, Nelson, Lewis and most of the other players were average and below average defenders, yet 2 years standing they are top 3 in the league defensively. Think about that.

I understand in todays NBA, dunks, 40 pt games and offensive clutch performances rank players but defense is the most underrated stat in the game. While Durrant, D Wade, Paul, Melo are putting up 40 pt games, they are getting bounced early in the playoffs.

Your peremeter players can win games, but its the big men in this league that win series, hense the reason you're seeing Dwight go deep into the playoffs year after year.




@ the guy who said Dwight is overrated because he isn't a prime Shaq on offense. That's funny to me. So since Lebron, Kobe, Melo, D Wade aren't a prime Jordan, does that make these other guys scrubs?

Shaq and Howard get compared all the time. Noone was as dominat as Shaq. Shaq is/was bigger than Dwight Howard. Shaq just had to bully his way to the basket then get the easy dunk. Howard is big but he's not Shaq big. So stop comparing there offensive games. Shaq was a freak of nature and could of the the goat, had he had the work ethic of Howard. I love Shaq but how many reports did you hear about him coming into training camp (for whatever team) overweight? That was pretty much a yearly thing. Whereas Howard is the epitomy of physical fitness.

Shaq > Howard on offense because of his size alone

Howard > Shaq on defense.


Howard is a pf playing center because of his athletic ability. Howard isn't even 7'.


end rant....


I'm kinda proud of myself. I typed all of this when I am drunk...

no point in quoting me, I won't remember typing any of this in the morning...just sayin..

BlueJayFanDan
10-21-2010, 02:34 AM
Howard is overrated. He is a great defender but he is so bad on offense. He cant hit jump shots to save his life. His point numbers are inflated because he can make layups and he gets to the line a lot but if you ask him to post up 10 feet away and shoot it he will miss 9 out of 10 times and Orlando will lose. The reason I say he is overrated is because there is so much talk about how great he is all around because he gets points and plays defense but like I said his ppg doesn't really show us anything because he is not good on offense.

macc
10-21-2010, 02:49 AM
Howard is overrated. He is a great defender but he is so bad on offense. He cant hit jump shots to save his life. His point numbers are inflated because he can make layups and he gets to the line a lot but if you ask him to post up 10 feet away and shoot it he will miss 9 out of 10 times and Orlando will lose. The reason I say he is overrated is because there is so much talk about how great he is all around because he gets points and plays defense but like I said his ppg doesn't really show us anything because he is not good on offense.




Ya I agree, just like that Shaq guy, waaaay overrate because he couldn't hit a jump shot either. What's with these guys that can't shoot and make 20 ft jumpshots consistantly, who cares that they are defensive players of the year, shoot a higher fg% then everyone else in the league, make offenses change their entire stragety because ofthem alone, and dominate anyone in their path, but that means absolutely nothing because they can't make 20 ft jumpers regularly. I 100% agree. :facepalm:

tredigs
10-21-2010, 02:57 AM
He's arguably the most dominant defensive player of ALL TIME....or at least they any of us have probably seen.. .There's never be a big that can do ALL of what he does defensively with his size and athleticism...



It's pretty rare when I have to sit back and literally out-loud laugh at a thread on here. Gotta ask you, when did you start following basketball? This kid is an athletic monster (though far from the most athletic), but were you even alive in the 90's? This post just annoys me.

And Macc: Remove the goggles my man; stop trying to argue that Dwight is a dominant offensive player.

|x-M1NTy-x|
10-21-2010, 03:04 AM
not underrated.. not 1 bit

Joshtd1
10-21-2010, 03:13 AM
I really don't know where to rank Howard. I definitely don't think he is underrated. He is a pretty damn good shot blocker, but he could potentially save his team a lot more points if he just kept the ball inbounds on his blocks and having his teammates get it, instead of being a showoff and swatting it out of bounds and giving the other team another possession. His man defense IMO is average every time I see him play.

His post offense isnt good, and thats my biggest knock on him, specially with his athletic abilities..but him getting offensive rebounds and dunks and alleyoops is still 2 points, and those points are better then nothing. Thats what you're expecting from your center anyway right? You just cant expect to give him the ball and tell him to win the
game for you.

Since he's healthy, he's the best center by default..but if/when Yao is healthy I personally think he is better.

Sadds The Gr8
10-21-2010, 03:15 AM
how is he underrated? the Magic are have been considered a championship caliber team (though I don't think they are), by ESPN/TNT/NBATV the last 3 years, and it's because of Dwight Howard. Pretty much everyone considers him the best C in the league right now, and for years to come...he's also considered a top 10 player in the league. so i don't get how he's underrated. You just think he deserves be mentioned in the Lebron/Kobe/Wade debate for best player in the league, but he absolutely should not. When he can consistently be dominant on the offensive end, then he'll prolly get some consideration for best player in the league, but until then....nahhhhhh.

Wade>You
10-21-2010, 03:18 AM
Disagree w/ the following
-He's not underrated
-Nowhere near one of the greatest defenders of all-time, not even for Centers.

macc
10-21-2010, 03:24 AM
It's pretty rare when I have to sit back and literally out-loud laugh at a thread on here. Gotta ask you, when did you start following basketball? This kid is an athletic monster (though far from the most athletic), but were you even alive in the 90's? This post just annoys me.

And Macc: Remove the goggles my man; stop trying to argue that Dwight is a dominant offensive player.



Please quote me where I said he was dominant offensively......oh wait I didn't say that......who's wearing goggles?

My point (now i'm repeating myself) is that he gets knocked for his offensive game all the time, yet he had the highest fg% of any player in the NBA last year and avg 18+ ppg.

I will say Dwight is dominant defensively. He's just underrated offensively. Underrated and dominant are completely different meanings when referring to somone game. Savy

I choose my words wisely when I post in the thread, I rarely contradict myself and stand by what I say. If you're going to quote me, quote what I'm saying instead of taking an entire 5 paragraph reply out of context.

Wade>You
10-21-2010, 03:32 AM
Howard had the highest FG% of any player taking less than 11 FGAs a game. An average of 6ppg comes from the charity stripe. He's only averaging 12ppg from the floor.

macc
10-21-2010, 03:36 AM
Howard had the highest FG% of any player taking less than 11 FGAs.



Well that might not mean much to you, but to the owners who pay Dwight Max money and all the players in the league who respect and play against him, yes that means a little something.

Plus I'll use your own stat, if Howard is taking 11 or fewer shots a night on offense and still is averaging near 20ppg, you would think that would mean a little bit. Imagine if he was taking as many shots as a kobe or D wade, then you could see him average his 25+ per game, since that's what alot of fans just greatness on these days. How many ppg games there average can be. Efficiency means nothing I guess.

Chronz
10-21-2010, 03:53 AM
Oh ok, so they are the best defensive team, just not according to the most important defensive stat, gotcha.

That wasnt the most important defensive stat, neither was his

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 03:59 AM
For those who don't think is one of the most dominant defensive players in the last 20 years please name some that were more dominant..It can't be any perimeter players, because they can't change a team's D like post players do...

Hakeem...Ben Wallace.. Duncan..Mutombo are the only ones that come to mind that a case can be made for

Guys like Nelson...Carter..and Lewis..play major mins and they're horrible on D yet magic are still a top defensive team...Look at the last 20 yrs...no team has been a great defensive team more because of one player than the magic...Guys like Wallace and Duncan even had much better perimeter defenders than D12.. Their defensive is good without playing a traditional 4 next to D12..that alone shows how dominant he is..

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 04:01 AM
how is he underrated? the Magic are have been considered a championship caliber team (though I don't think they are), by ESPN/TNT/NBATV the last 3 years, and it's because of Dwight Howard. Pretty much everyone considers him the best C in the league right now, and for years to come...he's also considered a top 10 player in the league. so i don't get how he's underrated. You just think he deserves be mentioned in the Lebron/Kobe/Wade debate for best player in the league, but he absolutely should not. When he can consistently be dominant on the offensive end, then he'll prolly get some consideration for best player in the league, but until then....nahhhhhh.

I dont know if your talking to me or not but I specifically point out Kobe, lbj, wade, and cp3 should be ahead of him

Yea a lot have him in the top 10, because I've seen many people on this board put guys like Melo and Durant higher...Look at the guy a few posts down who said he isn't even the best C in the league...that's an example of what im talking about..

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 04:04 AM
That wasnt the most important defensive stat, neither was his

OK...well tell us what stat you think is more important than fg% allowed?? Because there isn't a general stat that tells more about a teams D than that one..

Ovratd1up
10-21-2010, 04:26 AM
I'd say he's underrated, as people don't understand how enormous his impact is. His impact on the defensive end alone probably outweighs Kobe's impact on his team overall. He was the lone defender on the best defensive team in the league last season (held opponents to lowest TS% in the league while on a fast pace, which is supposed to increase efficiency) and gives more on offense than Pau Gasol (more points per 36, higher efficiency with worse teammates, worse passing, provides more spacing with interior presence).

HeaTxRipZz
10-21-2010, 04:33 AM
If Dwight could add a reliable post game into his arsenal (IE Hook shots, etc) He could be the best in the NBA hands down. I wouldn't say he's underrated or Overrated by anyone but I do feel he can be much much much better on offense

Patman
10-21-2010, 04:57 AM
OK...well tell us what stat you think is more important than fg% allowed?? Because there isn't a general stat that tells more about a teams D than that one..

Probably Defensive Rating (DRTG) or as Hollinger calls it Defensive efficiency (defEFF) or just points allowed per 100 Possessions.

Just look it up.

OA SLAY
10-21-2010, 05:09 AM
What the he'll r u talkin about

kingkenny01
10-21-2010, 07:49 AM
take him ten years back when there were actually centers he'd get his **** raped
center to me is most overated position so howard is overated

samevans7
10-21-2010, 08:16 AM
Rondo>Paul at defense

PHX2daDEATH
10-21-2010, 08:43 AM
Not over-rated.. he does what a center is supposed to do.. Rebound, Block shots and shoot a high FG%, remember he's on a team that likes to spread it around and use the shot clock.. so 20ppg is good. I think him working with Hakeem was a great idea, if you gave Dwight, Dream's offensive moves and awareness he would be the most dominant player in the league and would probably win MVP' year after year..I think he needs a better supporting cast too.. He wont be winning any titles with Nelson, Carter and Lewis

rapjuicer06
10-21-2010, 09:26 AM
take him ten years back when there were actually centers he'd get his **** raped
center to me is most overated position so howard is overated

take him back 10 years and he's a PF. he's the same damn size as cwebb. the game is different now then it was 10 years ago. now you have people flopping more, you have the refs calling dinky fouls all over the place, there is no way for howard to abuse anyone like shaq did. its not the same as it was 10 years ago so you can't compare him to 10 years ago.

and i want to point out to everyone that says most of dwights points come from lay-ups and dunks...what about lebron? how many of his points come from dunks and lay-ups? i mean its bull **** how many people think with double standards. when lebron knocks the ball out of bounds on his blocks its considered the block of the night, when howard does it, its considered showing off. some of you guys are just ridiculous

beasted86
10-21-2010, 09:40 AM
Yes he is underrated.

Everyone is in love with guys who shoot the ball too much and play no defense, despite not leading their team anywhere. Shame there are large groups of fans who think Dirk & Carmelo are better than Howard.

Howard is a top 5 player in the NBA.

sep11ie
10-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Yao is twice as good as him. How can you call him the best defensive C of all tim? You lost all credibilitywith me.

MAC10TIZZY
10-21-2010, 10:23 AM
You think points allowed is more important that Fg% allowed?? :facepalm:

Char was 28th in the league in pts scored a game... If you play at a slower pace your going to allow less pts, because there will be less possessions....which is why fg% is a better judge

very good point

sep11ie
10-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Not over-rated.. he does what a center is supposed to do.. Rebound, Block shots and shoot a high FG%, remember he's on a team that likes to spread it around and use the shot clock.. so 20ppg is good. I think him working with Hakeem was a great idea, if you gave Dwight, Dream's offensive moves and awareness he would be the most dominant player in the league and would probably win MVP' year after year..I think he needs a better supporting cast too.. He wont be winning any titles with Nelson, Carter and Lewis


That is a stupid statement. Thats like saying if you gave Sasha MJ's offensive game he'd be a top 2 player in the league.

koreancabbage
10-21-2010, 10:30 AM
just b/c people say he has no post game doesn't mean he's bad. everyone's got a weakness to their game, but Dwight Howard is pure dominance. He's definitely not underrated.

AntiG
10-21-2010, 11:40 AM
He's not underrated, but he is definitely a bit overrated. People make him out to be some godlike center, but from a skills/polish perspective he's nowhere close to where Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Mourning or Ewing were at this point in their careers. He is, however, one of the finest athletes to ever play center complete with tremendous natural instincts and awareness, which makes up for a lot of his deficiencies in terms of his basic basketball skills.

ManRam
10-21-2010, 01:19 PM
Oh ok, so they are the best defensive team, just not according to the most important defensive stat, gotcha.

I haven't read posts after this and I hope people have chimed in on this...I'm not sure what I'd say the most important defensive stat is, but points allowed is definitely not telling. The pace of the effects that too much. Orlando has more possessions on defense than Charlotte because they play a much faster offensive game. Points allowed is definitely not THE defensive stat.

FG% is a more telling stat for sure. Orlando also allows the fewest points per shots. This is getting off topic, so I'll move on.

I'm hard on Dwight as a Magic fan. But his defense is more noticable and dominant than any one person is on offense. He turns a cast of 3-4 poor defenders into a top 3 unit in the league all on his own. He is by a mile the biggest force on defense in the league. His overall game gets nocked because people don't realize the importance of his defense. Factor that in, he's already a top 10 or so player, even if he was a complete waste on offense- which he isn't.

He isn't overrated, or really underrated. Some people completely write him off because he doesn't have Hakeem-like offensive moves. He is incredibly efficient though, and still averages close to 20 points a game. Some people overrate him for sure, but far more people underrate him. His defense alone, as I said, is not anything that should ever not be mentioned.

Jays Claw
10-21-2010, 01:40 PM
Whenever people talk about him the first thing they say is he has no post game...

Howard continues to progress horribly on his post game. Just imagine if he had the post skills of a Bogut or Gasol.


Which has a bigger impact on the game D12's defense or Durants scoring??

Definitely Durant's scoring.


Its def D12s D... Put D12 on ANY team in the league and they will have a top 3 defense..

Your statement is flawed. It's like saying putting Durant on any team would help them win 50+ games.

sep11ie
10-21-2010, 01:57 PM
Howard continues to progress horribly on his post game. Just imagine if he had the post skills of a Bogut or Gasol.



Definitely Durant's scoring.



Your statement is flawed. It's like saying putting Durant on any team would help them win 50+ games.

I agree, he saves maybe 8 pts a game, scores around 18, and has 4-5 fouls a night. Durant is waaay better all around.

black1605
10-21-2010, 02:01 PM
I haven't read posts after this and I hope people have chimed in on this...I'm not sure what I'd say the most important defensive stat is, but points allowed is definitely not telling. The pace of the effects that too much. Orlando has more possessions on defense than Charlotte because they play a much faster offensive game. Points allowed is definitely not THE defensive stat.

FG% is a more telling stat for sure. Orlando also allows the fewest points per shots. This is getting off topic, so I'll move on.

I'm hard on Dwight as a Magic fan. But his defense is more noticable and dominant than any one person is on offense. He turns a cast of 3-4 poor defenders into a top 3 unit in the league all on his own. He is by a mile the biggest force on defense in the league. His overall game gets nocked because people don't realize the importance of his defense. Factor that in, he's already a top 10 or so player, even if he was a complete waste on offense- which he isn't.

He isn't overrated, or really underrated. Some people completely write him off because he doesn't have Hakeem-like offensive moves. He is incredibly efficient though, and still averages close to 20 points a game. Some people overrate him for sure, but far more people underrate him. His defense alone, as I said, is not anything that should ever not be mentioned.

Wouldn't Orlando's accelerated pace also account for their opponents lower shooting percentage? If the other team is getting more shots, their shooting percentage is bound to be lower.

In any event, Charlotte and Orlando were tied for first last year in Defensive Efficiency according to Hollinger.

black1605
10-21-2010, 02:18 PM
Also, on the topic of pace, according to the numbers I found, Orlando only averages .4 more possessions per game than Charlotte. If these numbers are flawed, please link me to a more reliable source.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/possessions-per-game

topdog
10-21-2010, 02:26 PM
Dwight needs to work more on a short range game instead of relying on dunks. He is the force he is though because of his amazing D.

Gators123
10-21-2010, 02:28 PM
I don't think hes underrated.

Sadds The Gr8
10-21-2010, 02:33 PM
I dont know if your talking to me or not but I specifically point out Kobe, lbj, wade, and cp3 should be ahead of him

Yea a lot have him in the top 10, because I've seen many people on this board put guys like Melo and Durant higher...Look at the guy a few posts down who said he isn't even the best C in the league...that's an example of what im talking about..

that doesn't mean he's underrated...he was rated 6th IIRC on the PSD top 10 players list, and thats what majority says...those quotes u talked about are the minority of people who don't think Howard is that good. In the media/NBA sports shows, and on here at least, he's rated exactly where he should be.

danniboi168
10-21-2010, 02:36 PM
dwight is probably the best center in the nba, hes not underrated. He's just that good..

Run&Gun
10-21-2010, 03:15 PM
Right now Howard's the best center in the league period. Cuz. of Yao's constant injuries he's barely in the conversation any more. He's still considered at least a top 5 player by most people so I don't think he's underrated. I think just based on his youth and potential to be a little bit better he has to be considered top 5. There are a couple points that should be looked at though.

1) Howard's rebounding and points are skewed since he plays on a team where the other 4 guys just shoot 3's and jumpshots and he just gets the rebound again and dunks it. That's not to say that he still wouldn't get his numbers on another team, but I think he'd be closer to 18 and 12.
2) His defense still isn't as good as when Ben Wallace was in his prime. Howard is probably one of the most dominant help side shot blockers, but he still gets in a lot of foul trouble and doesn't always shut down the opposing center if they're crafty or highly skilled in the post.
3) Still TO's over the ball a lot considering considering he rarely plays in the post or handles the ball
4) Needs to block shots towards his teammates not in the stands. Even though it's hella nasty and cool to watch, should follow what Bill Russel and Duncan do when they block shots, hit it towards their teammates.
5) Not a consistent offensive weapon yet, clearly shown in the playoffs when Van Gundy chooses not to feed him the ball in the post or really run plays for him.

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree, he saves maybe 8 pts a game, scores around 18, and has 4-5 fouls a night. Durant is waaay better all around.

Lol you think Howard only saves 8 pts a game??? lol...wow He saves close to 8 pts a game on blocks only...but you not thinking about all the shots he alters....think about how many times you see guys go into the lane and they miss the shot because they have to lob it 5 ft in the air just to get it over Howard... Not to mention the many times he deters people from even going into the lane...If you think Howard only saves 8 pts a game your crazy...

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 03:49 PM
Probably Defensive Rating (DRTG) or as Hollinger calls it Defensive efficiency (defEFF) or just points allowed per 100 Possessions.

Just look it up.

Why should either of those be looked at over fg% allowed?? Maybe you can look at those also to get an idea, but I dont see how those stats are a BETTER indicator of how good a team is defensively...

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 03:54 PM
that doesn't mean he's underrated...he was rated 6th IIRC on the PSD top 10 players list, and thats what majority says...those quotes u talked about are the minority of people who don't think Howard is that good. In the media/NBA sports shows, and on here at least, he's rated exactly where he should be.

See when I look at sports shows and tv they slight d12 for the same reason I see people on here...and its because he's not like like Hakeem in the post...I've heard things like "Pau is the best big man in the game"....uhh not he's not..he's great but not better than Howard... If you dont think he's underrated fine...but I've read enough posts and see enough stuff on tv where imo he isn't rated just below kobe,wade,lbj, and cp3 like he should.. Just look at how many people in this thread that have said he's overrated..

the_jon
10-21-2010, 03:57 PM
slam recently ranked dwight #5 in the nba. i think the general fan sentiment reflects that ranking.

that, to me, is too high.

thus i deem him overrated
This.

NYCkid12
10-21-2010, 04:09 PM
Wouldn't Orlando's accelerated pace also account for their opponents lower shooting percentage? If the other team is getting more shots, their shooting percentage is bound to be lower.

In any event, Charlotte and Orlando were tied for first last year in Defensive Efficiency according to Hollinger.

I think thats pretty accurate of the 2 teams Defenses..theyre very close..but Orlando has the back to back defensive player of the year and the bobcats have no one near that..thats why orlando imo is a better defense

Korman12
10-21-2010, 04:18 PM
Actually had a big argument with someone yesterday about this. He claimed Howard was the most overrated super-star not only in the NBA, but all North American professional sports.

I disagreed, mainly because his argument constructed of the reasoning that he isn't putting numbers like Shaq, Hakeem or Ewing did in the 90s, and that his post-offense isn't refined (which it isn't). I, however, don't seem to care how he scores his 20 ppg. If he gets it in a high percentage, which he does, then it's all good.

People know he's a defensive stud (has, by far, the biggest DEF Win Shares in the league today), but they just don't like his lack of offensive skills.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2010, 04:44 PM
See when I look at sports shows and tv they slight d12 for the same reason I see people on here...and its because he's not like like Hakeem in the post...I've heard things like "Pau is the best big man in the game"....uhh not he's not..he's great but not better than Howard... If you dont think he's underrated fine...but I've read enough posts and see enough stuff on tv where imo he isn't rated just below kobe,wade,lbj, and cp3 like he should.. Just look at how many people in this thread that have said he's overrated..

you mean teh due tat locked him down in the finals?

Sorry but i much rather have Pau, Duncan or a Helthy Ming being my cetner than dwight,

black1605
10-21-2010, 04:47 PM
I think thats pretty accurate of the 2 teams Defenses..theyre very close..but Orlando has the back to back defensive player of the year and the bobcats have no one near that..thats why orlando imo is a better defense

Gerald Wallace finished 3rd last year, so I wouldn't go that far.

SteveNash
10-21-2010, 05:10 PM
Top 5 center all time!

macc
10-21-2010, 05:18 PM
you mean teh due tat locked him down in the finals?

Sorry but i much rather have Pau, Duncan or a Helthy Ming being my cetner than dwight,




Yes because Pau by himself took Memphis sooo far into the playoffs as their main guy. Post prime Duncan isn't making any noise, healthy Yao Ming is arguable, though his lack of impact on the defensive side of things would be the devils advocate to your opinion.


But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if they are in the minority.

ManRam
10-21-2010, 05:34 PM
Wouldn't Orlando's accelerated pace also account for their opponents lower shooting percentage? If the other team is getting more shots, their shooting percentage is bound to be lower.

In any event, Charlotte and Orlando were tied for first last year in Defensive Efficiency according to Hollinger.

I honestly don't really care. Whether or not Orlando is the better defensive team compared to Charlotte doesn't change the fact that Charlotte last year threw 4-5 good/great defenders out there to start every game, and Orlando sent out 2, with 3 below average defenders. The fact that a starting squad of Jameer, Vince and Lewis was a part of a top 3 defensive team just speaks tremendously about Howard. Not to mention Redick, Anderson and Williams being the 2-4th men off the bench (poor defenders).

If you know me well, you know I very rarely come in here and defend Dwight. I used to get a lot of **** about it from other Magic fans, questioning my true fanhood and ****. But I feel firmly now, because of his defense, that he is truly elite. He's as good (better) on defense as Durant is offensively, and better offensively than Durant is defensively. The Durant love is insane right now- he hasn't lead his team anywhere. Dwight has anchored a Finals, ECF and 4 consecutive playoffs. Defense is the common denominator of elite teams, so why isn't regarded as heavily while talking about individuals? Dwight individual, and especially team defense, is just otherworldly.

Jays Claw
10-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Why should either of those be looked at over fg% allowed?? Maybe you can look at those also to get an idea, but I dont see how those stats are a BETTER indicator of how good a team is defensively...

A team's DRtg is an indicator of how many points they allow on average. How could you not incorporate that when talking about a team's defensive capabilities?

In my opinion, the opposition's FG% is definitely something that needs to be roped in whenever such discussions surface, however, I find it to be misleading at times. (Eg. Orlando's opponents tend to shoot a low FG% because of X amount of shots taken). I mean, Orlando could be giving up second chance, fast-break and wide open shots/opportunities and yet the opposing team still finds a way to miss without any significant effort from Orlando's defense.

Hellcrooner
10-21-2010, 05:44 PM
Yes because Pau by himself took Memphis sooo far into the playoffs as their main guy. Post prime Duncan isn't making any noise, healthy Yao Ming is arguable, though his lack of impact on the defensive side of things would be the devils advocate to your opinion.


But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if they are in the minority.

Jameer Nelson, Rashard, Turkoglyu, Carter , etc vs White chocolate, Stromile swight and lorenen wright.

Yep a very fair comparison....

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 05:51 PM
you mean teh due tat locked him down in the finals?

Sorry but i much rather have Pau, Duncan or a Helthy Ming being my cetner than dwight,

That post right there proves my point exactly...

If you have those 3 players ahead of dwight than you probably don't think he's a top 10 player

ManRam
10-21-2010, 05:54 PM
Yeah, the Pau in Memphis argument fails on all levels because his teams had nothing on the at all. I hate Pau a ton, but he's truly elite. I think he's a top 10 player, and along with Dwight I think he's the only person in the competition for best big in the game now (Dirk is a close three).

I'm spoiled because I watch Dwight and 90% of his games, but I haven't seen someone dominate on defense and change the whole team dynamics as Dwight does in a long time. It really is nothing short of amazing. He just changes everything about the opposing team's game plan, and is so good at making up for the weak perimeter defense on his lonesome. I firmly believe, again, that he is more dominant on defense than any one player is on offense.

Jewelz0376
10-21-2010, 05:57 PM
A team's DRtg is an indicator of how many points they allow on average. How could you not incorporate that when talking about a team's defensive capabilities?

In my opinion, the opposition's FG% is definitely something that needs to be roped in whenever such discussions surface, however, I find it to be misleading at times. (Eg. Orlando's opponents tend to shoot a low FG% because of X amount of shots taken). I mean, Orlando could be giving up second chance, fast-break and wide open shots/opportunities and yet the opposing team still finds a way to miss without any significant effort from Orlando's defense.

If you look at fg% allowed for one game than yea..but over the course of an entire season..if a team leads the league in fg% allowed its going to be because they are one of the best defensive teams in the league..not because teams just miss tons of open shots game after game against them..

My point is there are other stats you can look at to give an idea how good they are defensively, but over the course of an entire season fg% is just as good than any many of those other stats

Jays Claw
10-21-2010, 06:16 PM
He's as good (better) on defense as Durant is offensively, and better offensively than Durant is defensively. The Durant love is insane right now- he hasn't lead his team anywhere. Dwight has anchored a Finals, ECF and 4 consecutive playoffs. Defense is the common denominator of elite teams, so why isn't regarded as heavily while talking about individuals? Dwight individual, and especially team defense, is just otherworldly.

The whole topic of discussion is how/why is Dwight underrated by most of us. However, team defense and team accomplishments have been brought up the last couple of pages when supporting his case. This thread is soley based on Dwight's offensive/defensive game and yes, he's a monster on defense and is progressing slowly on offense. In the now, I'd take Durant's scoring abilities (25-30+ points a night) over Dwight's defense (10-14 rebounds, 4-5 blocks a night).

masalex1205
10-21-2010, 06:18 PM
this thread is garbage, Howard is everywhere, no way he's underrated,...if anything he's overrated

masalex1205
10-21-2010, 06:20 PM
I think thats pretty accurate of the 2 teams Defenses..theyre very close..but Orlando has the back to back defensive player of the year and the bobcats have no one near that..thats why orlando imo is a better defense

Yeah your right, its not like Gerald Wallace was All-Defensive First Team or anything

Daze9900
10-21-2010, 06:49 PM
D12 is not underrated. His offensive deficiencies speak for itself. He is one of the best centers of the game if not the best. Can he get better? Maybe he didn't listen to Pat I don't see him incorporating the dream shake anytime soon. If he had a polished offensive game he could definitely elevate his already super-star status. He had a chance to win an NBA championship and even though he wasn't to blame, you have to believe that if he had a better offensive game and if they tried to throw the ball to him more, he could have had a bigger impact on the game. So yeah until he starts getting more buckets in a consistent matter thats what he will be, an NBA superstar instead of becoming an NBA legend.