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View Full Version : If the Lakers beat the Heat in the Finals, "where does Kobe rank all time?"



Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:32 PM
Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but basically, continue....

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:34 PM
BTW, that thread had to do with Kobe's legacy and had nothing to do with Kobe vs LeBron (:confused:) but whatever.

dolfan2909
10-20-2010, 11:42 PM
top 10 guards baby

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 11:44 PM
Top 10

JordansBulls
10-20-2010, 11:47 PM
He is around 9th now all time, and if he won again this year he would be 5th or 6th.

Kobe has a chance to be top 3-4 alltime but won't get higher than that because His prime wasn't dominant enough.

_KB24_
10-20-2010, 11:53 PM
Like I said in the other thread, another ring especially against the Heat and a Finals MVP, would make me put him as my #2 no questions about it. Greats like Magic, West, and Bird have all admitted that Kobe is better than they were individually. Now pouring in the rings, would make him the closest thing we'll ever see to Jordan.

The Final Boss
10-20-2010, 11:58 PM
My argument (I used this for a final in a communications course) is Kobue has played against vastly superior athletes. If you dispute that then even the Wizard of Oz wouldn't be able to provide you a brain. Kobe would have demolished all the trees stumps, cans, and Woody Harrelson's Jordan played against.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:59 PM
He is around 9th now all time, and if he won again this year he would be 5th or 6th.

Kobe has a chance to be top 3-4 alltime but won't get higher than that because His prime wasn't dominant enough.

I think Kobe Bryant had a very unique career that is difficult to judge. He played with the most dominant big of the era when he was young so he was a part of 3 championship teams and doesn't get enough credit for it. In his prime, his team wasn't very good. But 35 ppg and an 81 point performance is pretty dominant IMO. He did what he could with what he had. Now his team is championship caliber again and he's again collecting rings. I see few to no weaknesses in his game.

Da Knicks
10-21-2010, 12:02 AM
I think Kobe Bryant had a very unique career that is difficult to judge. He played with the most dominant big of the era when he was young so he was a part of 3 championship teams and doesn't get enough credit for it. In his prime, his team wasn't very good. But 35 ppg and an 81 point performance is pretty dominant IMO. He did what he could with what he had. Now his team is championship caliber again and he's again collecting rings. I see few to no weaknesses in his game.

Lets see if the lakers and heat make the finals first and if it does happen Kobe would be in the top 10 guards. Stacked teams are not a way of ranking players, how would you rank Horry for beating any team?

Storch
10-21-2010, 12:05 AM
There is really no way that anyone can rank any player throughout all time... It's nearly impossible.

If you put some of the old school players like Utah's Russel to guard Kobe, he would destroy him and go for 81 points.

If you put Artest on Jordan, what would happen? My guess is that Jordan torches him too... But can he ball him up as bad as he would Russel? I doubt it... So it's not fair.

Players in Jordan's era were much less athletic, they had no players that are like Lebron James back in the day. That man is quite a handful, you can even ask Kobe.

Jordan had Pippen for a much longer time than Kobe had Shaq. These two duos aren't even comparable with each other, so that just adds more to my premise.

JARVIS123
10-21-2010, 12:06 AM
anywhere from 2 to 10.

JordansBulls
10-21-2010, 12:07 AM
I think Kobe Bryant had a very unique career that is difficult to judge. He played with the most dominant big of the era when he was young so he was a part of 3 championship teams and doesn't get enough credit for it. In his prime, his team wasn't very good. But 35 ppg and an 81 point performance is pretty dominant IMO. He did what he could with what he had. Now his team is championship caliber again and he's again collecting rings. I see few to no weaknesses in his game.

Agreed.

Storch
10-21-2010, 12:11 AM
I think Kobe Bryant had a very unique career that is difficult to judge. He played with the most dominant big of the era when he was young so he was a part of 3 championship teams and doesn't get enough credit for it. In his prime, his team wasn't very good. But 35 ppg and an 81 point performance is pretty dominant IMO. He did what he could with what he had. Now his team is championship caliber again and he's again collecting rings. I see few to no weaknesses in his game.

Agreed.

How about we just agree on Jordan being the best SG of his era and Kobe is the best SG of his era. :up:

Storch
10-21-2010, 12:11 AM
This is a little off-topic but yet somewhat related:

Phil Jackson is by far the luckiest coach to have had both of these players.

JordansBulls
10-21-2010, 12:19 AM
There is really no way that anyone can rank any player throughout all time... It's nearly impossible.

If you put some of the old school players like Utah's Russel to guard Kobe, he would destroy him and go for 81 points.

If you put Artest on Jordan, what would happen? My guess is that Jordan torches him too... But can he ball him up as bad as he would Russel? I doubt it... So it's not fair.

Players in Jordan's era were much less athletic, they had no players that are like Lebron James back in the day. That man is quite a handful, you can even ask Kobe.

Jordan had Pippen for a much longer time than Kobe had Shaq. These two duos aren't even comparable with each other, so that just adds more to my premise.

:pity:

Jordan played with Pippen 9 full season and 10 if you include 1995. Kobe played with Shaq 8 full seasons. Not only that but Shaq was actually a superstar for each of those seasons, while it was 4-5 years before Pippen came to be one on the Bulls.

Also your other post is a fail on soo many levels. Tayshaun Prince wasn't a good defender he pretty much held Kobe down in 2004.
Paul Pierce wasn't known as a good defender either.

nipo10847
10-21-2010, 12:20 AM
He is already the GOAT. He will increase the gap if that happens :rolleyes:

Jaji
10-21-2010, 12:34 AM
This is a little off-topic but yet somewhat related:

Phil Jackson is by far the luckiest coach to have had both of these players.

It wasn't luck. Or coincidence for that matter. Phil wouldn't dare coach a team that didn't contain the best player in the game.

Jaji
10-21-2010, 12:35 AM
Agreed.

How about we just agree on Jordan being the best SG of his era and Kobe is the best SG of his era. :up:

I can agree with that.

Jaji
10-21-2010, 12:37 AM
Lets see if the lakers and heat make the finals first and if it does happen Kobe would be in the top 10 guards. Stacked teams are not a way of ranking players, how would you rank Horry for beating any team?

Lol, what?

LeBitteNoir
10-21-2010, 12:42 AM
LOL @ thinking Lakers will beat HEAT anytime during the next decade. LOL!

ink
10-21-2010, 12:51 AM
This is a little off-topic but yet somewhat related:

Phil Jackson is by far the luckiest coach to have had both of these players.

I think he may have been scouted. ;) Luck doesn't seem to have been part of it.

Hangtime
10-21-2010, 12:46 PM
If this were to happen against a healthy Heat team with Kobe walking away with the finals MVP then I think one could argue he is behind only Jordan in the guard department. This would by far be his most incredible accomplishment in winning a championship. He would also walk off the floor a sixtime champ matching Jordan and 3 time finals MVP. Who else can you put above him with this achievement beside Jordan?

footballer2369
10-21-2010, 02:45 PM
Baseless post in other thread about Kobe's best year and 2nd best year being better than Wade's best, and Wade not being clearly better now.

Kobe's best (05-06): 28 PER, .559 TS%, 24.1 AST%, 38.7 USG, .224 WS/48
Wade's best (08-09): 30.4 PER, .574 TS%, 40.3 AST%, 36.2 USG, .232 WS/48

Wade's better across the board. (115 o rating to 114 as well and same d rating)

Kobe's 2nd best (02-03): 26.2 PER, .550 TS%, 27.2 AST, 32.9 USG, .210 WS/48
Wade's 2nd best and 3rd best:
(05-06)27.6 PER, .577 TS, 33 AST, 32.5 USG, .239 WS/48
(06-07)28.9 PER, .583 TS, 40.5 AST, 34.7 USG, .219 WS/48

As you can see Wade's stats easily trump those of Kobe's in both years. Both of those years also have a very good case for being better than Kobe's best year as well (especially 05-06 when you include the best finals performance in history to an already sizable advantage in WS/48 in the regular season)

If you look at only last year and/or the year before the advantage is even more absurd as there is absolutely zero argument for Kobe over Wade statistically.

Last year (09-10):
28 (Wade) to 21.9 PER (Kobe)
.562 (Wade) to .545 TS (Kobe)
.224 (Wade) to .160 WS/48 (Kobe)

They're incomparable. (Stats are here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html for Wade and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html for Kobe)

How can Kobe be the best player or even the best SG ever when he is so clearly outclassed by a player at his own position (and one at SF) in his prime and present-day?

JordansBulls
10-21-2010, 02:59 PM
If this were to happen against a healthy Heat team with Kobe walking away with the finals MVP then I think one could argue he is behind only Jordan in the guard department. This would by far be his most incredible accomplishment in winning a championship. He would also walk off the floor a sixtime champ matching Jordan and 3 time finals MVP. Who else can you put above him with this achievement beside Jordan?

Kareem.

Based all time, you gotta have the stats, efficiency, accolades and titles. And with only 1 mvp it will be hard as hell to move him higher than 3rd or 4th all time.

Hangtime
10-21-2010, 03:05 PM
Kareem.

Based all time, you gotta have the stats, efficiency, accolades and titles. And with only 1 mvp it will be hard as hell to move him higher than 3rd or 4th all time.

Notice I said greatest guard not player behind Jordan.

valade16
10-21-2010, 03:42 PM
Kobe has played in an era of great athleticism, but saying it's a FAR more athletic league than in jordan's years is a little bit of a stretch, it's not like jordan played in the 50's, he played less than 10 years ago.

You really think all the players across the board were more athletic when kobe won his ring in 2000 than when Jordan won his last ring in 1998?

Hangtime
10-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Athleticism doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot when some lacks the intelligence and understanding of the game. And all the intangibles it truly takes to win.

WadeKobe
10-21-2010, 04:51 PM
Like I said in the other thread, another ring especially against the Heat and a Finals MVP, would make me put him as my #2 no questions about it. Greats like Magic, West, and Bird have all admitted that Kobe is better than they were individually. Now pouring in the rings, would make him the closest thing we'll ever see to Jordan.

You mean until LBJ and Wade retire... right?

If, over the next 6 years, the Heat win 5 championships and Kobe doesn't win this next year...

LBJ and Wade will both have much better career stats than Kobe...

LBJ will have the same amount of Rings...

Wade will have more...

We can assume they'll both have as many if not more (2, or 3) Finals MVP's as Kobe...

LBJ will have more Regular Season MVPs.

If Wade wins 1 he'll have the same amount....

It won't even be close.

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-21-2010, 05:14 PM
You mean until LBJ and Wade retire... right?

If, over the next 6 years, the Heat win 5 championships and Kobe doesn't win this next year...

LBJ and Wade will both have much better career stats than Kobe...

LBJ will have the same amount of Rings...

Wade will have more...

We can assume they'll both have as many if not more (2, or 3) Finals MVP's as Kobe...

LBJ will have more Regular Season MVPs.

If Wade wins 1 he'll have the same amount....

It won't even be close.

Wow, a lot of "ifs" have to happen for them just to catch up. Lebron, yes, he would have the far greater stats and rings "if" that all happens. Not Wade though. He will already be 29 in 3 months. You dont think that his decline in the up coming years is not going to affect his stats? That and a better player next to him dominating the ball is also going to hurt his stats. I think the Heat have a good 3 to 4 year window with all three players playing up to full capacity. After that, Wade is going to be slowing LBJ and Bosh down. They may have to trade him to get some younger blood in who can stretch the floor

Bravo95
10-21-2010, 06:10 PM
6 championships and 3 Finals MVPs in just over a decade, for any player, would be knocking on the door of the Top 5 players of all-time imo.

GspLAL
10-21-2010, 08:11 PM
Kareem.

Based all time, you gotta have the stats, efficiency, accolades and titles. And with only 1 mvp it will be hard as hell to move him higher than 3rd or 4th all time.

I'm sorry but Kobe deserves to have 3 MVPs right now, or 2 at least for his 35 PPG season, the other one where he averages 31 could be debated but leading that team to the playoffs was just amazing.

valade16
10-21-2010, 08:24 PM
I'm sorry but Kobe deserves to have 3 MVPs right now, or 2 at least for his 35 PPG season, the other one where he averages 31 could be debated but leading that team to the playoffs was just amazing.

Except kobe only has 1 ring...

I mean, rudy fernandez wouldve won MVP last year too if there didnt happen to be 200 better players last year...:rolleyes:

We go by what he has, not what he deserves.

If we did that u should forever add 2 titles, finals mvps, and 2 more regular season mvps from now on to jordan for his time he missed in the 90s...

BillyHoyle35
10-21-2010, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE=valade16;15282862]Except kobe only has 1 ring... QUOTE]

but he has 5 rings as of, not one.

Jaji
10-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Kobe's best (05-06): 28 PER, .559 TS%, 24.1 AST%, 38.7 USG, .224 WS/48
Wade's best (08-09): 30.4 PER, .574 TS%, 40.3 AST%, 36.2 USG, .232 WS/48

Wade's better across the board. (115 o rating to 114 as well and same d rating)

Kobe's 2nd best (02-03): 26.2 PER, .550 TS%, 27.2 AST, 32.9 USG, .210 WS/48
Wade's 2nd best and 3rd best:
(05-06)27.6 PER, .577 TS, 33 AST, 32.5 USG, .239 WS/48
(06-07)28.9 PER, .583 TS, 40.5 AST, 34.7 USG, .219 WS/48

As you can see Wade's stats easily trump those of Kobe's in both years. Both of those years also have a very good case for being better than Kobe's best year as well (especially 05-06 when you include the best finals performance in history to an already sizable advantage in WS/48 in the regular season)

If you look at only last year and/or the year before the advantage is even more absurd as there is absolutely zero argument for Kobe over Wade statistically.

Last year (09-10):
28 (Wade) to 21.9 PER (Kobe)
.562 (Wade) to .545 TS (Kobe)
.224 (Wade) to .160 WS/48 (Kobe)

They're incomparable. (Stats are here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html for Wade and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html for Kobe)

How can Kobe be the best player or even the best SG ever when he is so clearly outclassed by a player at his own position (and one at SF) in his prime and present-day?

Man don't ever attach my name to some BS I didn't post again. All your manipulated numbers don't mean anything. On the court is where it matters most and on the court the numbers are obvious: 24 > 3. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack.

GspLAL
10-22-2010, 12:45 AM
Except kobe only has 1 ring...

I mean, rudy fernandez wouldve won MVP last year too if there didnt happen to be 200 better players last year...:rolleyes:

We go by what he has, not what he deserves.

If we did that u should forever add 2 titles, finals mvps, and 2 more regular season mvps from now on to jordan for his time he missed in the 90s...

Completely different. You're making an assumption that Jordan would have those (Not saying there wasn't a high chance he would get it), but for Kobe's argument he actually did play and has the numbers to show it.

Chronz
10-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Completely different. You're making an assumption that Jordan would have those (Not saying there wasn't a high chance he would get it), but for Kobe's argument he actually did play and has the numbers to show it.

Yea it was a horrible argument but he could just as easily mention all the wrongfully given MVP's in League History and everything stays the same. Malone stole MJ's and Unseld stole Kareems I believe.

Aside from PPG, I dont buy your theory of Kobe having the #'s to prove it, Dirk/Bron were legit MVP candidates then as well with just as strong of a case.

nipo10847
10-22-2010, 09:22 AM
Man don't ever attach my name to some BS I didn't post again. All your manipulated numbers don't mean anything. On the court is where it matters most and on the court the numbers are obvious: 24 > 3. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack.

You created a thread and someone is giving his opinion with LEGIT support and facts and you are overtaking his post just by your opinion? wow! Just wow! As a matter of fact you never post anything valuable. You are LeBron fan and you always try to downgrade Wade in every single thread as far as I have seen thus far. If you don't want to discuss based on facts and expect people to agree with your pointless observation/opinion (and write they are on crack if they don't agree), then don't create a thread.

footballer2369
10-22-2010, 10:24 AM
Man don't ever attach my name to some BS I didn't post again. All your manipulated numbers don't mean anything. On the court is where it matters most and on the court the numbers are obvious: 24 > 3. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack.

If those are "manipulated numbers" feel free to go and try to manipulate some advanced numbers for Kobe... He has no advantages in the world of advanced stats. Sure he has the 35 ppg season where he took an absurd amount of shots and scored below 45% but Wade, Melo, Lebron, Durant et al could easily do that if they wanted to become chuckers.

The only people that are on crack are the hypocrits and ignorami who are too set in their Kobe worship to realize that there are easily 2 better players playing now with a 3rd who had a better year last year and is only improving in Durant.

Kobe is one of the best all-time, he just has no claim to anything near top 3 or top 5, since he's barely top 3 playing NOW.

Also, dude, relax, it's like arguing with Grandpa Bigot. Read the sig and live it.

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-22-2010, 10:36 AM
If those are "manipulated numbers" feel free to go and try to manipulate some advanced numbers for Kobe... He has no advantages in the world of advanced stats. Sure he has the 35 ppg season where he took an absurd amount of shots and scored below 45% but Wade, Melo, Lebron, Durant et al could easily do that if they wanted to become chuckers.

The only people that are on crack are the hypocrits and ignorami who are too set in their Kobe worship to realize that there are easily 2 better players playing now with a 3rd who had a better year last year and is only improving in Durant.

Kobe is one of the best all-time, he just has no claim to anything near top 3 or top 5, since he's barely top 3 playing NOW.

Also, dude, relax, it's like arguing with Grandpa Bigot. Read the sig and live it.

I like how you try to minipulate stats by going advanced stats for the entire thread, and then go with 45% fg percentage for Kobe's 35.4 points a game season. When in fact you know his ts% was 56% and his efg% was 49%. Both, very good for a player who was taking so many shots.

It was at least comparable to when Jordan scored 37 points on 56ts% and 48efg%

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-22-2010, 10:45 AM
Kobe's best (05-06): 28 PER, .559 TS%, 24.1 AST%, 38.7 USG, .224 WS/48
Wade's best (08-09): 30.4 PER, .574 TS%, 40.3 AST%, 36.2 USG, .232 WS/48

Wade's better across the board. (115 o rating to 114 as well and same d rating)

Kobe's 2nd best (02-03): 26.2 PER, .550 TS%, 27.2 AST, 32.9 USG, .210 WS/48
Wade's 2nd best and 3rd best:
(05-06)27.6 PER, .577 TS, 33 AST, 32.5 USG, .239 WS/48
(06-07)28.9 PER, .583 TS, 40.5 AST, 34.7 USG, .219 WS/48

As you can see Wade's stats easily trump those of Kobe's in both years. Both of those years also have a very good case for being better than Kobe's best year as well (especially 05-06 when you include the best finals performance in history to an already sizable advantage in WS/48 in the regular season)

If you look at only last year and/or the year before the advantage is even more absurd as there is absolutely zero argument for Kobe over Wade statistically.

Last year (09-10):
28 (Wade) to 21.9 PER (Kobe)
.562 (Wade) to .545 TS (Kobe)
.224 (Wade) to .160 WS/48 (Kobe)

They're incomparable. (Stats are here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html for Wade and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html for Kobe)

How can Kobe be the best player or even the best SG ever when he is so clearly outclassed by a player at his own position (and one at SF) in his prime and present-day?

For some reason you forgot to mention rebounding% and turnover%. I dont need to post the numbers to show you who was better at that. You also forgot the other side of the court to show where Kobe holds his opponents way under their averages. Far better than Wade does.

You also forgot to mention you are taking the numbers of a 10 year veteran who had already played countless regular seasons, and 4 deep runs in the playoffs. You also forgot to put an asterisks next to Wade's numbers because they were obtained mostly by playing the eastern conference. Lets see how Wade does in his 10 year in the league. And then you compare a 31 year old Kobe with 14 years in the league to a 27 year old Wade with 6 years in the league. Nice

footballer2369
10-22-2010, 01:37 PM
For some reason you forgot to mention rebounding% and turnover%. I dont need to post the numbers to show you who was better at that.

So? Those are largely inconsequential and the advantages are miniscule....

I posted the main stats... PER the all-encompassing stat, TS for shooting efficiency, assists because they are guards and this is an area where Wade holds a large advantage and then usage so that nobody can claim that Wade gained these stats by dominating the ball more than Kobe.

So Kobe turned the ball less and rebounded better in some instances but these are very small stats in the grand scheme of things... You're definitely grasping at straws.



You also forgot the other side of the court to show where Kobe holds his opponents way under their averages. Far better than Wade does.

This is entirely false... By all means show me the stats. Don't talk out of your butt though. Show me something.

The ones I've seen have Wade as the better defender.


You also forgot to mention you are taking the numbers of a 10 year veteran who had already played countless regular seasons, and 4 deep runs in the playoffs.

You're right, all the more reasons Wade having the best seasons is even more impressive. He's still in his prime. It's concievable that Wade could end his career with 5 seasons better than Kobe's best. He already has the best season, the 3rd (or 2nd arguably) and 4th (or 3rd) best seasons and the best finals performance.


You also forgot to put an asterisks next to Wade's numbers because they were obtained mostly by playing the eastern conference.

Laughable to say the least. If the West is better its advantage is miniscule. The East has 3 of the top 4 and probably 5 of the top 8 teams in the league. This year the East definitely has a talent advantage.


Lets see how Wade does in his 10 year in the league. And then you compare a 31 year old Kobe with 14 years in the league to a 27 year old Wade with 6 years in the league. Nice

Whatever. Excuses are like *******s, everybody has them and they all stink.

valade16
10-22-2010, 02:18 PM
Completely different. You're making an assumption that Jordan would have those (Not saying there wasn't a high chance he would get it), but for Kobe's argument he actually did play and has the numbers to show it.

Is this a serious rebuttal? Explain to me logically, ANY reason you can think that Jordan or those Bulls would've fallen off their previous 3 years performance?!

The ONLY thing you can say is "he didn't play so we can never know for sure".

That is ********, everybody knows if he had played, toss 2 more mvps, and championships on his resume...

I mean we've never seen me play MJ in his prime one on one, so we can never know FOR SURE if MJ would've won right?:eyebrow:

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-22-2010, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE]So? Those are largely inconsequential and the advantages are miniscule....

I posted the main stats... PER the all-encompassing stat, TS for shooting efficiency, assists because they are guards and this is an area where Wade holds a large advantage and then usage so that nobody can claim that Wade gained these stats by dominating the ball more than Kobe.

So Kobe turned the ball less and rebounded better in some instances but these are very small stats in the grand scheme of things... You're definitely grasping at straws.

You think that rebounding the ball and not turning it over are small things in the game of basketball? Wow. Maybe Im wasting my time in talking with you. I do find it funny that you say that the advantages Kobe has are miniscule, but you're proud to flaunt Wade's 57ts% over Kobe's 56ts%. Or Wades .08 WS/48 advantage and proclaim them to be dominating numbers. I have already debunked ASSIST% in the "Ball Hog" thread so that stat means very little to me.





This is entirely false... By all means show me the stats. Don't talk out of your butt though. Show me something.

The ones I've seen have Wade as the better defender

Here you go.... Quote:
First is dMULT, or defensive multiplier. This measures how effectively a player has limited his counterparts' efficiency on a per-possession basis compared to their season rate. Thus, if Ron Artest has a dMULT of .950, that says Artest has held his counterparts to 95% of their normal production on a per possession basis.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/...?articleid=518


Quote:
February 12, 2010
Stopper's Spotlight
A look at this season's top statistical defenders


by Bradford Doolittle


It's not uncommon to read a lament about how the NBA's All-Defensive team is dominated by star players with sparkling scoring averages. Whether or not that actually happens is a matter of debate. It seems like more often, the coaches make poor choices based on gaudy shot-blocking or steals totals, but with names like LeBron James and Kobe Bryant cropping up annually on the All-Defensive squads, there's no question that some of the game's most explosive scorers have been honored for their work on the other end of the floor.

I have no problem with this. In baseball, there is an oft-discussed problem with great hitters winning undeserved Gold Glove Awards. (*cough* Derek *cough* Jeter *cough, cough*) Some of this backlash may have found its way into many people's response to NBA defensive awards. It shouldn't.

The best all-around offensive players in the NBA will almost invariably be the top defensive players in the league because they're tapping into the same skill set. Length, quickness, strength, leaping ability and desire are just some of the traits that differentiate the best players no matter which end of the floor we're talking about. Defensive specialists such as Bruce Bowen or Jared Jeffries can be terrific athletes but unskilled offensive players. They are able to carve out well-deserved reputations for defensive prowess by finding a niche and a being willing to accept that role. But even the best defensive specialists don't have the defensive ceiling of the NBA's transcendent athletes--James, Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Dwight Howard and, as Kevin Pelton pointed out in his latest piece on the Thunder, Kevin Durant.

I bring this up because today I'm going to list the players designated by NBAPET as this season's top defenders. The top of the list is star laden, reading very much like a rundown of the most valuable overall players in the league. Again, I don't have a problem with this, though there are some peccadilloes with some players on the list which I'll point out.

When you present a list like this, you always have to run off a string of caveats and explainers, as if I were Thomas Haden Church doing a voiceover for a shady pharmaceutical company. (Aren't they all?) Anyway, here goes:

1. The key defensive metric in NBAPET's rating of individual defensive prowess is dMULT, which is a non-creative way of abbreviating Defensive Multiplier. The bad name evolved from the role it played in NBAPET's system of rating overall player value. NBAPET wants to measure the differences in efficiency and production from what a player gets and what he allows. In one early incarnation of NBAPET, this resulted in a multiplier that mashed together several different approaches of measuring individual defense and was then used to "adjust" a player's offensive production. I dropped that methodology about five years ago, but the name dMULT remains.

What dMULT now attempts is to measure is the points created per possession used allowed by a player's box score counterparts versus their usual production. So a dMULT of .869, which is what Thabo Sefolosha currently sports, means that his counterparts have been 13.1 percent less productive when going against Thabo. A dMULT of 1.105 would mean that opponents have been 10.5 percent more productive. And so on. (Current dMULT scores are listed on our player pages.)

2. I make no claim to this being any sort of end-all/be-all of individual defensive metrics. The system doesn't work particularly well for measuring the defensive ability of reserves, and the numbers are heavily regressed for playing time to smooth this out. But that also means that a player with little playing time is going to rate close to average. Also, I have long been dissatisfied with the box score counterpart approach and, as such, I've been (very) gradually working on converting NBAPET to a play-by-play based system which tracks estimated opponent data on a possession-by-possession basis. (For me, it's a big project because I lack the programming skills needed to simply write a play-by-play parser. I have to use Excel for everything.)

3. In NBAPET's system of skill ratings, all players' dMULT scores are compared to their positional averages and then all players are ranked according to these computations. From there, a percentile ranking is assigned. Finally, the percentile ranks are fitted into a Bell Curve to give each player an integral rating between +5 and -5, with fewer players landing ratings on either end of the curve and more players clustered around the middle.

4. Even when I review skill ratings for defensive ability, I always look at them in conjunction with ATH (a rating for athleticism), BPS (position-adjusted blocks plus steals) and on court/off court stats. If all of these measures confirm what dMULT is telling me, then I'm much more prone to declare a good or lousy defender. If they don't support dMULT, then I start fishing for an explanation.

With that out of the way, let's move on to the list of the 17 players currently rated as +5 defenders by NBAPET, in order of dMULT.

1. Dwight Howard, ORL (C, .709): There is a near consensus that Howard has become the NBA's most dominant defensive force. Physically, he has it all and he really exhibits the kind of mobility it takes to be a great defending big man in today's NBA.

2. Kobe Bryant, LAL (SG, .732): I've never been able to think of an approach to adequately address this issue, but I suspect that the outstanding defensive numbers posted by some of the game's top scorers can be attributed in part to their ability on offense. Whether it's energy, foul trouble or what, the task of defending these guys bleeds over to the offensive end. In any event, you won't hear many arguments against Bryant's defensive skills.

3. Kevin Durant, OKL (SF, .738): He has every tool, he just needed the want-to and the support offered by better surrounding talent.

4. LeBron James, CLE (SF, .771): Once LeBron decided to make defense a priority, it was lights out for Cavaliers opponents.

5. Dwyane Wade, MIA (SG, .796): Wade is a player I'd point to as one that holds down opponents production in part by making them really work on defense. He also fills up the defensive box score with steals and blocks.

6. Luol Deng, CHI (SF, .814): Deng is underrated in many ways, but perhaps no more so than on defense. Having seen him play many times this season, I can attest that my eyes confirm what the numbers suggest. He gives Carmelo Anthony fits, just to cite one example.

7. Andrei Kirilenko, UTA (SF, .816): Kirilenko has always sported elite BPS and ATH ratings, but his dMULT has sometimes lagged. My theory is that he's had too much of a tendency to roam looking for defensive swag. This season, that hasn't been a problem.

8. Dirk Nowitzki, DAL (PF, .817): Nowitzki had a terrible defensive reputation when he was a young player in the league and I think that still colors many people's perceptions of his effort on that end of the floor. He's been consistently solid in dMULT the last few seasons, though never to quite this degree.

9. Kevin Garnett, BOS (PF, .842): Even with diminished athletic indicators and reduced playing time due to injuries, KG still rates as an elite defender.

10. Al Horford, ATL (C, .849): A dedicated and cagey post defender, Horford will garner support for second-team All-Defensive this season.

11. Ron Artest, LAL (SF, .858): Artest was a little annoyed at making "only" second team All-Defensive last season and he could be headed towards a repeat performance. He's been really good, as usual, but there have been other forwards having better defensive seasons. Incidentally, Trevor Ariza, who Artest replaced on the Lakers, has a +3 defensive skill rating for the Rockets.

12. Thabo Sefolosha, OKL (SF, .859): Sefolosha's complementary game makes him an ideal fit with Oklahoma City's first unit and he teams with Kevin Durant to give the Thunder a pair of top wing defenders.

13. Hedo Turkoglu, TOR (SF, .869): This one seems suspect, given Toronto's overall showing on defense. The only other Raptor with a positive defensive rating is Marco Belinelli. At the same time, Turkoglu had decent dMULT figures the last couple of years in Orlando. In the end the Raptors have been better defensively when Turkoglu has been on the bench, so chances are that he's getting at least some credit for somebody's else work.

14. Joe Johnson, ATL (SG, .870): Johnson has not always rated as a good defensive guard, but he experienced an uptick last season that has continued in 2009-10. The Hawks are in the middle of the pack defensively, but Johnson, Horford and Josh Smith give them a solid defensive core.

15. Lamar Odom, LAL (PF, .870): Odom's combination length and mobility is truly rare and his dMULT is backed up by the fact that the Lakers' Defensive Rating improves by 5.5 points when he's in the game.

16. Caron Butler, WAS (SF, .870): Butler's year-to-year consistency in dMULT has been nil--you never know what you're going to get. If his rating is real, however, and he ends up going to Boston as rumored, he'll fit right into Doc Rivers' defensive schemes.



You're right, all the more reasons Wade having the best seasons is even more impressive. He's still in his prime. It's concievable that Wade could end his career with 5 seasons better than Kobe's best. He already has the best season, the 3rd (or 2nd arguably) and 4th (or 3rd) best seasons and the best finals performance
Wade is at the end of his prime for statistical production. A players prime is between 23 to 28 athletically. Wades best seasons are far behind him. With a better player in Lebron dominating the ball, Wade pretty assist% is gone, which is going to affect his PER, and your overall thought of him as a player because he is going to have a assist% in the 20's. Just like Kobe



Laughable to say the least. If the West is better its advantage is miniscule. The East has 3 of the top 4 and probably 5 of the top 8 teams in the league. This year the East definitely has a talent advantage

HAHA. You must be joking. Not even the biggest east coast homers could make that statement without their noses growing. First of all, if they played the Cavs, Celtics, and Orlando for 2/3's of their season, I could agree with you. But they dont. They played the rest of that crap conference far more than they play an actual team. The West has been the dominant conference Kobe's entire career. Just look at the East vs West records. The last two years, yes, the East has had 3 very good teams in it. But the rest of the conference has been a joke. Then you go and say this year, the east definitely has the talent advantage. Well, this year has not even been played yet. How would you know? And if it is more talented, than Wades numbers are going down.


Whatever. Excuses are like *******s, everybody has them and they all stink.

That whole post you were making excuses about things that dont support your argument, and then you go and say this. LOL

footballer2369
10-22-2010, 04:28 PM
You think that rebounding the ball and not turning it over are small things in the game of basketball? Wow. Maybe Im wasting my time in talking with you. I do find it funny that you say that the advantages Kobe has are miniscule, but you're proud to flaunt Wade's 57ts% over Kobe's 56ts%. Or Wades .08 WS/48 advantage and proclaim them to be dominating numbers. I have already debunked ASSIST% in the "Ball Hog" thread so that stat means very little to me.




Yes, you debunked ast% it's no longer worth anything as a stat, however the tiny advantage that Kobe has as a rebounder and with turnovers is why Kobe is statistically superior.

Hilarious.


Here you go.... Quote:
First is dMULT, or defensive multiplier. This measures how effectively a player has limited his counterparts' efficiency on a per-possession basis compared to their season rate. Thus, if Ron Artest has a dMULT of .950, that says Artest has held his counterparts to 95% of their normal production on a per possession basis.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/...?articleid=518

Well, glad I read that article...

Washington's Caron Butler and Hedo Turkoglu are top 15 defenders... who knew?



Wade is at the end of his prime for statistical production. A players prime is between 23 to 28 athletically. Wades best seasons are far behind him. With a better player in Lebron dominating the ball, Wade pretty assist% is gone, which is going to affect his PER, and your overall thought of him as a player because he is going to have a assist% in the 20's. Just like Kobe

Hmm.... so at the end of your post you scold me for talking about the future or this season as it hasn't been played yet. At the same time you have the gall to say Wade's best seasons are far behind him. Laughable to say the least, especially when coupled with your comment about a players prime years ending at 28 and Wade being, you guessed it, 28.

As for Lebron dominating the ball and ast% going down there are at least two huge flaws- the main one being the fact that ast% is a rate stat, so it will not necessarily go down. His usage will. His ast may or may not.

His PER will likely increase considering the fact that he will be able to be much more efficient with all of the open looks etc.

Anywho, the most important issue here is your blatant hypocrisy. You know the future so you're allowed to make baseless predictions, but my fact based prediction is unacceptable. Awesome.


HAHA. You must be joking. Not even the biggest east coast homers could make that statement without their noses growing. First of all, if they played the Cavs, Celtics, and Orlando for 2/3's of their season, I could agree with you. But they dont. They played the rest of that crap conference far more than they play an actual team. The West has been the dominant conference Kobe's entire career. Just look at the East vs West records. The last two years, yes, the East has had 3 very good teams in it. But the rest of the conference has been a joke. Then you go and say this year, the east definitely has the talent advantage. Well, this year has not even been played yet. How would you know? And if it is more talented, than Wades numbers are going down.

Ok, so I can't know that the East is more talented, but you can know that Wade's best years are behind him, his numbers are going down accross the board.

Also, Wade is far worse because of the conference he plays in, as if he only plays the Wizards all season and Kobe's playing the Mavs and Nuggets 100% of the time. Ohhhh, that's what accounted for the 7 point PER advantage last year, my mistake. I'm so clueless.



That whole post you were making excuses about things that dont support your argument, and then you go and say this. LOL

On what planet? I was defending my initial post. No excuses, those are what you're making whilst grasping for straws, ala citing small advantages in rebounding for a guard and a tiny advantage in TO%, while having a huge disadvantage at AST/TO. Quite a joke.

Anyways, dude I'm done arguing. I've presented the facts.

Should you chose to excuse and disregard them because of the West's vast superiority, your crystal ball's pessimistic opinion of Wade and Kobe being just so super handsome, that's up to you.

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-22-2010, 05:22 PM
[QUOTE]Yes, you debunked ast% it's no longer worth anything as a stat, however the tiny advantage that Kobe has as a rebounder and with turnovers is why Kobe is statistically superior.

Hilarious.

Yes, in the cases where roles are totally different, assist% is a meaningless stat. Is Pau Gasol not a good passer because he only has a 16% assist percentage? No, he is not a point guard. He is not asked to use whatever percentage of his touches to create an open shot for a teammate. And neither is Kobe or any other true shooting guard.



Well, glad I read that article...

Washington's Caron Butler and Hedo Turkoglu are top 15 defenders... who knew?

Yes, Caron has always been a good defender. But to take Turkoglu as the only example why you choose not to pay attention to that "advanced stat" is quite comical. I think I will ignore defensive rebounding as a stat because I just cant see how Gerald Wallace is a top 10 rebounder :rolleyes: Never mind that the list includes some of the leagues best defensive players. But just because it shows that Kobe stopped his opponents more than Wade did, its somehow meaningless. I think I know what Im dealing with here.




Hmm.... so at the end of your post you scold me for talking about the future or this season as it hasn't been played yet. At the same time you have the gall to say Wade's best seasons are far behind him. Laughable to say the least, especially when coupled with your comment about a players prime years ending at 28 and Wade being, you guessed it, 28

You act like I just pulled 28 out of my @$$.Look at the top 10 in PER all time. Check their greatest greatest PER season. Jordan 27, Shaq 28, David Robinson 28, Wilt 27, Pettit 26, Duncan 27, Barkley 27, Magic 27, Oscar Robertson 25, Jerry West 26, and even Kobe at 27. Every one of those players declined statisticaly after they were 28 years old. If you think rainbows pop out of Wade's @$$ and think he will be the one to go against the grain, thats up to you. But your right, after looking at those ages, I probably should have said 27 is when most players hit their peak


As for Lebron dominating the ball and ast% going down there are at least two huge flaws- the main one being the fact that ast% is a rate stat, so it will not necessarily go down. His usage will. His ast may or may not.

He is not going to be asked to be the playmaker anymore. He is going to be asked to be a scorer. His assist% will go down.


His PER will likely increase considering the fact that he will be able to be much more efficient with all of the open looks etc.
History says other wise.


Anywho, the most important issue here is your blatant hypocrisy. You know the future so you're allowed to make baseless predictions, but my fact based prediction is unacceptable. Awesome.

I have shown, my predictions are not baseless.



Ok, so I can't know that the East is more talented, but you can know that Wade's best years are behind him, his numbers are going down accross the board.

History shows trends. That is what I base my opinions off of. You are making a prediction off of personal opinion. Its like me looking at the Heat roster and saying they should not lose more than 6 games this season. But in fact, we wont know how these talents mix together.


Also, Wade is far worse because of the conference he plays in, as if he only plays the Wizards all season and Kobe's playing the Mavs and Nuggets 100% of the time. Ohhhh, that's what accounted for the 7 point PER advantage last year, my mistake. I'm so clueless.

He doesnt play the Wizards all season, but the majority of the schedule he is playing teams comparable to them. The Lakers dont play the Mavs and Nuggets all season, but they play 8 teams comparable to them. But to answer your question no, that does not account for the gap in PER. Kobe was horrible in the regualar season last year. That was the worst I have ever seen him play.



On what planet? I was defending my initial post. No excuses, those are what you're making whilst grasping for straws, ala citing small advantages in rebounding for a guard and a tiny advantage in TO%, while having a huge disadvantage at AST/TO. Quite a joke.

How am I grasping for straws? I just stated there were aspects in the game that you chose to ignore. While pumping up that 1% better true shooting%. I found that funny.


Anyways, dude I'm done arguing. I've presented the facts.

Should you chose to excuse and disregard them because of the West's vast superiority, your crystal ball's pessimistic opinion of Wade and Kobe being just so super handsome, that's up to you.

I see you choose to disregard everything that would show Kobe is a better defender. Or that he helps rebound and does not turn the ball over as much.

P.S. Wade's more my type. :)

footballer2369
10-22-2010, 05:43 PM
I see you choose to disregard everything that would show Kobe is a better defender. Or that he helps rebound and does not turn the ball over as much.

P.S. Wade's more my type. :)

In fairness, I have/had never heard of that stat, while I have seen d rating, and heard from people who had synergy that Wade's defense was better. (If anyone with synergy or other advanced stats would like to interject for either Wade or Kobe being better, it would be much appreciated)

And BTW Wade's TRB% was better than Kobe's last year, sorry. 7.8 to 7.7.I didn't even check on the career year thing because I tried to summarize and pick the most important stats (and the ones with the largest discrepancies). And Kobe's TO% was 0.8 better last year. But like you said, they had different roles... Wade's A/TO is better, so...

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-22-2010, 06:07 PM
In fairness, I have/had never heard of that stat, while I have seen d rating, and heard from people who had synergy that Wade's defense was better. (If anyone with synergy or other advanced stats would like to interject for either Wade or Kobe being better, it would be much appreciated)

And BTW Wade's TRB% was better than Kobe's last year, sorry. 7.8 to 7.7.I didn't even check on the career year thing because I tried to summarize and pick the most important stats (and the ones with the largest discrepancies). And Kobe's TO% was 0.8 better last year. But like you said, they had different roles... Wade's A/TO is better, so...

Yes, as I said. Wade out performed Kobe by far last year. I dont try to deny things are are blatantly obvious. I do however disagree with the reasoning behind looking at a stat, and thinking that is the end all be all. I like to look into why a paticular stat is the way it is, and if different variables may cause the bottom line to be swayed one way or another. Its like if you told me the sky way blue, I want to look for the possible causes for it having that color. Looking at certain stats and not investigating why they may be that way, is lazy research IMO. Anyone can look at a stat on a computer, but it takes a lot more to examine why these equations may be the way they are.

GspLAL
10-22-2010, 08:44 PM
It may sound like an excuse but Kobe was playing injured for most of the season last year and the brief time he did play healthy he was putting MVP numbers and was 1a 1b with Lebron in votes if I remember correctly.

jbeezy
10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
So? Those are largely inconsequential and the advantages are miniscule....

I posted the main stats... PER the all-encompassing stat, TS for shooting efficiency, assists because they are guards and this is an area where Wade holds a large advantage and then usage so that nobody can claim that Wade gained these stats by dominating the ball more than Kobe.

So Kobe turned the ball less and rebounded better in some instances but these are very small stats in the grand scheme of things... You're definitely grasping at straws.




This is entirely false... By all means show me the stats. Don't talk out of your butt though. Show me something.

The ones I've seen have Wade as the better defender.



You're right, all the more reasons Wade having the best seasons is even more impressive. He's still in his prime. It's concievable that Wade could end his career with 5 seasons better than Kobe's best. He already has the best season, the 3rd (or 2nd arguably) and 4th (or 3rd) best seasons and the best finals performance.



Laughable to say the least. If the West is better its advantage is miniscule. The East has 3 of the top 4 and probably 5 of the top 8 teams in the league. This year the East definitely has a talent advantage.



Whatever. Excuses are like *******s, everybody has them and they all stink.

No stat in any sport matters most than how many championships a player has lead his team to. Kobe has 5 Wade has 1. You can say some of Kobe's championships were because of Shaq but you fail to realize Wade only won 1 with Shaq and the year after the Heat was ****.

Kobe and the Lakers have proved they can make it to the Finals (3 straight years) Lebron, Wade and Bosh havent even won a regular season game yet. So to make any prediction on the heat winning 5 of the next 6 years is laughable at best.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 12:52 AM
You created a thread and someone is giving his opinion with LEGIT support and facts and you are overtaking his post just by your opinion? wow! Just wow! As a matter of fact you never post anything valuable. You are LeBron fan and you always try to downgrade Wade in every single thread as far as I have seen thus far. If you don't want to discuss based on facts and expect people to agree with your pointless observation/opinion (and write they are on crack if they don't agree), then don't create a thread.

My original thread had to do with Kobe and Jordan until JodansBulls closed it (:rolleyes:). I don't care anything about his post. I'm talking about him "quoting" my post and changing the words. I didn't type what his post had my quoted as typing. In short: mind your own business.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 01:01 AM
If those are "manipulated numbers" feel free to go and try to manipulate some advanced numbers for Kobe... He has no advantages in the world of advanced stats. Sure he has the 35 ppg season where he took an absurd amount of shots and scored below 45% but Wade, Melo, Lebron, Durant et al could easily do that if they wanted to become chuckers.

The only people that are on crack are the hypocrits and ignorami who are too set in their Kobe worship to realize that there are easily 2 better players playing now with a 3rd who had a better year last year and is only improving in Durant.

Kobe is one of the best all-time, he just has no claim to anything near top 3 or top 5, since he's barely top 3 playing NOW.

Also, dude, relax, it's like arguing with Grandpa Bigot. Read the sig and live it.

Not only is it not only about numbers, but you don't know how to analyze stats. We're talking about 2 completely different types of players. Why would you compare TS% when looking at Kobe and Wade? Kobe shoots way more jumpers of course he's going to have a lower TS%. That doesn't make Wade a better shooter.

Kobe does what his team needs him to do. And the results? Well I believe Kobe's team is the 2x defending champs so I don't think they're complaining too much.

I call those advanced stats manipulated because they're not official. Anyone who understands mathematics can come up with a formula to make Adam Morrison look like the most efficient player in basketball. 2 career baskets and 2 rings means 1 ring every bucket :rolleyes:.

nipo10847
10-23-2010, 01:27 AM
My original thread had to do with Kobe and Jordan until JodansBulls closed it (:rolleyes:). I don't care anything about his post. I'm talking about him "quoting" my post and changing the words. I didn't type what his post had my quoted as typing. In short: mind your own business.

Really? Then keep your own business out of here. This is a public forum and I will always point out the obnoxious and weird posters. And btw, thanks for you awesome response. I knew you had nothing to counter the posts that actually don't contain any ignorance.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 01:46 AM
Really? Then keep your own business out of here. This is a public forum and I will always point out the obnoxious and weird posters. And btw, thanks for you awesome response. I knew you had nothing to counter the posts that actually don't contain any ignorance.

Dude, WTF are you talking about? Seriously. You're embarrassing yourself and don't even know it.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 01:49 AM
I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.

That's what I'm talking about. You probably still won't get it but that's what happens when you jump into a convo with no clue as to what's going on or what has already been said.

_KB24_
10-23-2010, 02:02 AM
Jaji, did you get hacked? You NEVER had anything positive or neutral to say about Kobe. I actually don't believe you are writing what your saying.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 02:17 AM
Jaji, did you get hacked? You NEVER had anything positive or neutral to say about Kobe. I actually don't believe you are writing what your saying.

Saying that LeBron > Kobe doesn't mean Kobe sucks. I'm not that type of poster. I recognize and respect all greatness. Kobe is without a doubt one of the all time greats.

nipo10847
10-23-2010, 11:58 AM
That's what I'm talking about. You probably still won't get it but that's what happens when you jump into a convo with no clue as to what's going on or what has already been said.

WTF??? When did I say that? Please, post the link of the page where I said it. You are an ignorant 5 year old who is sporting with my name. Are you gay? Like, seriously? Wait, you will be taken care of by MODs. Enjoy the ban.

Go back and read my posts. That dude proved with facts why he thinks Wade is better than Kobe. Then you said you don't care about facts and anyone who doesn't agree with you is on crack. And then I said you didn't support your statement. And then you are mad because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. So finally you are now sporting with my name like a 5 year old kid? Shame. WAIT FOR THE MODS.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 12:07 PM
WTF??? When did I say that? Please, post the link of the page where I said it. You are an ignorant 5 year old who is sporting with my name. Are you gay? Like, seriously? Wait, you will be taken care of by MODs. Enjoy the ban.

Go back and read my posts. That dude proved with facts why he thinks Wade is better than Kobe. Then you said you don't care about facts and anyone who doesn't agree with you is on crack. And then I said you didn't support your statement. And then you are mad because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. So finally you are now sporting with my name like a 5 year old kid? Shame. WAIT FOR THE MODS.

That's the whole point, genius! That's why I said you don't know WTF you're talking about! That other guy did the same thing to me, changed my quote, and that's what WE were discussing. Then you jumped in w/o an effing clue. That's why I said you're embarrassing yourself and don't even know it. Because you're jumping in a convo and don't even know what's going on. I'm done with you now. I'll end it like I began it: mind your business (because you don't know what you're talking about!).

nipo10847
10-23-2010, 12:36 PM
^^


Kobe's best (05-06): 28 PER, .559 TS%, 24.1 AST%, 38.7 USG, .224 WS/48
Wade's best (08-09): 30.4 PER, .574 TS%, 40.3 AST%, 36.2 USG, .232 WS/48

Wade's better across the board. (115 o rating to 114 as well and same d rating)

Kobe's 2nd best (02-03): 26.2 PER, .550 TS%, 27.2 AST, 32.9 USG, .210 WS/48
Wade's 2nd best and 3rd best:
(05-06)27.6 PER, .577 TS, 33 AST, 32.5 USG, .239 WS/48
(06-07)28.9 PER, .583 TS, 40.5 AST, 34.7 USG, .219 WS/48

As you can see Wade's stats easily trump those of Kobe's in both years. Both of those years also have a very good case for being better than Kobe's best year as well (especially 05-06 when you include the best finals performance in history to an already sizable advantage in WS/48 in the regular season)

If you look at only last year and/or the year before the advantage is even more absurd as there is absolutely zero argument for Kobe over Wade statistically.

Last year (09-10):
28 (Wade) to 21.9 PER (Kobe)
.562 (Wade) to .545 TS (Kobe)
.224 (Wade) to .160 WS/48 (Kobe)

They're incomparable. (Stats are here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html for Wade and http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html for Kobe)

How can Kobe be the best player or even the best SG ever when he is so clearly outclassed by a player at his own position (and one at SF) in his prime and present-day?


All your manipulated numbers don't mean anything. On the court is where it matters most and on the court the numbers are obvious: 24 > 3. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack.

I could care less what he did with your post. But he stated something with legit support and you blew it out with your mere opinion. You said Kobe is better than Wade but didn't support with any facts. Then you said "Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack". Do you think you are Jesus?

That's all I cared about. And so you sported with my post. Haha...nice buddy. You have shown a lot of maturity..........just negative.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 12:43 PM
^^





I could care less what he did with your post. But he stated something with legit support and you blew it out with your mere opinion. You said Kobe is better than Wade but didn't support with any facts. Then you said "Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack". Do you think you are Jesus?

That's all I cared about. And so you sported with my post. Haha...nice buddy. You have shown a lot of maturity..........just negative.

Again, I don't care what he posted because I wasn't even talking about that. That's like me posting about how Wilt Chamberlain is better than Kareem. WTF? You weren't talking about Wilt or Kareem so why would you feel obligated to respond to that?

I started a thread about Kobe and Jordan. I didn't mention Wade once. So telling me that Wade is better than Kobe? WTF? I wasn't talking about Wade so what does that have to do with me? It takes 2 people to argue. He was basically arguing with himself because I wasn't talking about Wade.

Keep on going though. It's so funny because you still don't even know what you're talking about.

Jaji
10-23-2010, 12:46 PM
Just give it a rest, guy. You jumped into someone else's convo without a clue and embarrassed yourself. Now let's move on...

footballer2369
10-23-2010, 03:02 PM
I started a thread about Kobe and Jordan. I didn't mention Wade once. So telling me that Wade is better than Kobe? WTF? I wasn't talking about Wade so what does that have to do with me? It takes 2 people to argue. He was basically arguing with himself because I wasn't talking about Wade.

.

The point that you seem too dull to extrapolate for yourself is that Kobe can not be best overall if he's not even the best in recent times (ala Lebron and Wade being superior despite their human casts to this point vs Kobe's cast of stars).

And BTW your comment on TS% is extremely ignorant. TS% favors 3 point jumpshooters (see Korver, Mike Miller, Batum, Walker, Roddy, Nash, Maggette, Boobie Gibson all in the top 20). TS values a 3 point jumpshot more than a 2 point jumpshot. FG% would favor Wade who shoots less deep jumpers, but TS adjusts for that. Not only that, it factors in FT% which should give Kobe an advantage. It's true shooting efficiency.

School's out.

Chronz
10-23-2010, 05:29 PM
If the Lakers beat the Heat but Kobe sucks in the series, does it still help his legacy?

Jaji
10-23-2010, 06:31 PM
The point that you seem too dull to extrapolate for yourself is that Kobe can not be best overall if he's not even the best in recent times (ala Lebron and Wade being superior despite their human casts to this point vs Kobe's cast of stars).

And BTW your comment on TS% is extremely ignorant. TS% favors 3 point jumpshooters (see Korver, Mike Miller, Batum, Walker, Roddy, Nash, Maggette, Boobie Gibson all in the top 20). TS values a 3 point jumpshot more than a 2 point jumpshot. FG% would favor Wade who shoots less deep jumpers, but TS adjusts for that. Not only that, it factors in FT% which should give Kobe an advantage. It's true shooting efficiency.

School's out.

What do you mean "Kobe can't be the best overall?" When did I say Kobe was the best overall?

Why are you creating an argument out of thin air and just giving me the opposing position?

You clearly don't understand TS%. 3 pointers count more because they are lower percentage shots. Shaquille O'neal has a higher TS% than Wade, Kobe, and Jordan. Why? Because his FGs are high percentage shots. Wade and Kobe play 2 completely different games. Most of Wade's shots are closer to the basket, higher percentage shots. Kobe shoots more jumpers, lower percentage shots. So after all the funny math is done, as long as Wade doesn't shoot 50% from the line, then of course his TS% should be higher than Kobe's. And again, we're talking about 2 different players. Kobe does what he does and he's had plenty of success to show for it. Wade does something completely different. TS% is not proof that Wade is better. Especially from an All Time perspective which is what I'm referring to anyway.

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-24-2010, 02:13 AM
Where does Pau rank amoung secong fiddles if the Lakers beat the Heat? Kobe 1, Pippen 2, ...........?

footballer2369
10-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Lol Jaji with the reading comprehension fail...

as far as the 2nd fiddles question, Lebron/Wade are going to be up there but time will tell which is #2.

And Pau is great, no doubt, but I don't think he's in the top 5 2nd options...

IrespectNumber3
10-24-2010, 06:29 PM
Lebron, Kobe and Wade's careers are all not done.

If Kobe collects a ring again he is remembered as the most dominant player of the
2000-2011 generation hands down.
Now, on the flipside.

If Kobe doesn't win a ring, and the team that beats him is the Miami Heat. If Lebron ever gets more then 4 rings, he definitely surpasses Kobe alltime. Better statistics, better achievements, more accolades. If Wade is present during this time and has, 6 rings. Wade will have then surpassed Kobe. But until that happens all time should be measured only for active players and not career wise.

All-Time between these three achievements
1)Kobe 1 mvp 5 Nba Championships 2 NBA Finals MVPs
2a) Wade 1 NBA Championship 1 NBA Finals MVP (stats close but slightly behind Lebron)
2b) Lebron James 2 MVPs

Playa4life
10-25-2010, 05:19 PM
If Laker & Kobe Beat, MIAMI in NBA Finals!! That will Make Kobe the Ultimate NINJA ASSASSIN! and Perhaps Greatest Player of All-time. Because Jordan Never played against such a Tough competition! He played with Drexter, Bryon Rullsell, Washed up Bird, Washed up Magic! no body tough.. ALL those player Jordan competed were mediocere players.... Kobe Already Defeated 3 Headed mosters of CELTICS and Now IF HE BEATS These NEW 3 HEADED MONSTERS ON STEROIDS! KOBE WILL BE HURCULES AND GREATEST PLAYER ALL TIME!! You can take that to BANK!!!!

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-25-2010, 08:41 PM
If Laker & Kobe Beat, MIAMI in NBA Finals!! That will Make Kobe the Ultimate NINJA ASSASSIN! and Perhaps Greatest Player of All-time. Because Jordan Never played against such a Tough competition! He played with Drexter, Bryon Rullsell, Washed up Bird, Washed up Magic! no body tough.. ALL those player Jordan competed were mediocere players.... Kobe Already Defeated 3 Headed mosters of CELTICS and Now IF HE BEATS These NEW 3 HEADED MONSTERS ON STEROIDS! KOBE WILL BE HURCULES AND GREATEST PLAYER ALL TIME!! You can take that to BANK!!!!

Were you being serious with that post?

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-25-2010, 08:42 PM
If the Lakers beat the Heat but Kobe sucks in the series, does it still help his legacy?

If Kobe sucks, then the Lakers get swept. He is going to have to be at a VERY high level

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-23-2010, 01:15 AM
Yes, in the cases where roles are totally different, assist% is a meaningless stat. Is Pau Gasol not a good passer because he only has a 16% assist percentage? No, he is not a point guard. He is not asked to use whatever percentage of his touches to create an open shot for a teammate. And neither is Kobe or any other true shooting guard.




Yes, Caron has always been a good defender. But to take Turkoglu as the only example why you choose not to pay attention to that "advanced stat" is quite comical. I think I will ignore defensive rebounding as a stat because I just cant see how Gerald Wallace is a top 10 rebounder :rolleyes: Never mind that the list includes some of the leagues best defensive players. But just because it shows that Kobe stopped his opponents more than Wade did, its somehow meaningless. I think I know what Im dealing with here.





You act like I just pulled 28 out of my @$$.Look at the top 10 in PER all time. Check their greatest greatest PER season. Jordan 27, Shaq 28, David Robinson 28, Wilt 27, Pettit 26, Duncan 27, Barkley 27, Magic 27, Oscar Robertson 25, Jerry West 26, and even Kobe at 27. Every one of those players declined statisticaly after they were 28 years old. If you think rainbows pop out of Wade's @$$ and think he will be the one to go against the grain, thats up to you. But your right, after looking at those ages, I probably should have said 27 is when most players hit their peak



He is not going to be asked to be the playmaker anymore. He is going to be asked to be a scorer. His assist% will go down.


History says other wise.



I have shown, my predictions are not baseless.




History shows trends. That is what I base my opinions off of. You are making a prediction off of personal opinion. Its like me looking at the Heat roster and saying they should not lose more than 6 games this season. But in fact, we wont know how these talents mix together.



He doesnt play the Wizards all season, but the majority of the schedule he is playing teams comparable to them. The Lakers dont play the Mavs and Nuggets all season, but they play 8 teams comparable to them. But to answer your question no, that does not account for the gap in PER. Kobe was horrible in the regualar season last year. That was the worst I have ever seen him play.




How am I grasping for straws? I just stated there were aspects in the game that you chose to ignore. While pumping up that 1% better true shooting%. I found that funny.



I see you choose to disregard everything that would show Kobe is a better defender. Or that he helps rebound and does not turn the ball over as much.

P.S. Wade's more my type. :)

I told u footballer, so far the west is 41-28 vs the east. East is still the weaker conference. Plus, as I said, Wade's PER and assist% have plummeted. Man I'm good.

Dyna-sty
11-23-2010, 09:28 PM
Nothing would change for me. Top 10 still.

rufo4100
11-23-2010, 09:48 PM
Kobe is right there will MJ as the best shooting guard of all time...another title will secure his spot next to MJ. Kobe isnt done yet though and I predict he could challenge for the all time scoring record...if he does he could be up there as the best player of all time.

kArSoN RyDaH
11-25-2010, 06:52 PM
i have kobe 9th or 10th on my all time list. 10th if you have Duncan ahead but 9th ahead of Duncan because Kobe owns them in the playoffs.

one more ring i would sit him 3rd all time right behind kareem and mj. AS in RIGHT AFTER THAT VICTORY. career wise? if he only ends up with 6 rings? then i put him above kareem when it's all said and done, assuming he continues to play until he's about 36/37 and hits top 5 on all time scoring list.


now if he wins another championship (7th)? id sit him right up top with mj.
1a mj



1b kobe
vvv everyone else.