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View Full Version : If the Lakers beat the Heat in the Finals, is Kobe > Jordan?



sox04rR
10-20-2010, 07:28 PM
so everyone is saying that kobe might be compared to jordan when it is all said and done, but now that james is on miami hecan never live up to that. DOes that even make any sense to anyone? first off, kobe plays for the lakers. They have a TON of moeny and they are willing to spend to win and people want to play for the lakers. If LeBron stayed on the cavs everyone knows that no one wants to go to clv and that they could never really win a championhip with just LeBron. Jordan had a hall of famer in scottie pippin and kobe has gasol artest bynum, why can he becompared to jordan but Lebron cant when he is now on a even playing field as kobe?????

Gators123
10-20-2010, 07:30 PM
Kobe=Kobe
LeBron=LeBron
Jordan=Jordan

TylerSL
10-20-2010, 07:30 PM
because most people are stupid...... :pity: Lebron is the best player in the league, and the closest thing to Jordan since, Jordan himself.

Hoopsadvocate
10-20-2010, 07:36 PM
This will likely get closed because drama usually follows but your right.

Quite a few people though lebron could be jordan like but 3 months later hes not. Did his skills get worse? no they probably getting better actually. Did he hinder his chances at a championship to prevent him from matching or surpasing jordans? No he actually increased it.

No reason to go back on your words just because a guy chnaged teams. Now if u thought he never was jordan like then thats one thing but going from hes great he could be the next jordan to he will never be mj makes them look foolish.

Sadds The Gr8
10-20-2010, 07:48 PM
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/Romulus32/ibtl.gif

CHANGO
10-20-2010, 07:56 PM
Kobe=Kobe
LeBron=LeBron
Jordan=Jordan

This x1000!

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 07:56 PM
because most people are stupid...... :pity: Lebron is the best player in the league, and the closest thing to Jordan since, Jordan himself.

maybe closest thing since magic, but NOT JORDAN........ no one is close to jordan.

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 07:57 PM
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/Romulus32/ibtl.gif

God I love that......

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 07:59 PM
so everyone is saying that kobe might be compared to jordan when it is all said and done, but now that james is on miami hecan never live up to that. DOes that even make any sense to anyone? first off, kobe plays for the lakers. They have a TON of moeny and they are willing to spend to win and people want to play for the lakers. If LeBron stayed on the cavs everyone knows that no one wants to go to clv and that they could never really win a championhip with just LeBron. Jordan had a hall of famer in scottie pippin and kobe has gasol artest bynum, why can he becompared to jordan but Lebron cant when he is now on a even playing field as kobe?????

this is what I think of this thread......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOW1whqoBNU&feature=related

Corey
10-20-2010, 08:02 PM
This thread is already off topic, thanks to D Roses Bulls.

Closed.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 09:41 PM
I know people stubbornly dismiss this fact all the time but Kobe is pretty damn close to MJ. Their games, their competitiveness, their success. If Kobe is able to topple the high profile, star studded Heat in the Finals, completing the 2nd 3-peat for Kobe, how do they compare?

I hear all the time that Kobe isn't Jordan but that seems like a cliche to me. No one ever gives a reason, its just what "you're supposed to say." Eff that! I'm challenging the status quo. Because I remember a time when Jordan wasn't the GOAT, but then things changed. The only constant is change. So what does Kobe have to do in order to be the GOAT?

Kashmir13579
10-20-2010, 09:42 PM
never

Jaji
10-20-2010, 09:45 PM
never

Thanks for the insight (:rolleyes:). And also proving my point that no one has a valid reason as to why?

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 09:46 PM
No.

And he can win the next 20 rings and not be better than Magic,Jordan, Bird,Wilt,Russell.,MIkan

rickshaw
10-20-2010, 09:47 PM
the lakers could win the next 5 and he wouldnt be better than jordan

netsgiantsyanks
10-20-2010, 09:48 PM
no.

/thread

Jaji
10-20-2010, 09:48 PM
No.

And he can win the next 20 rings and not be better than Magic,Jordan, Bird,Wilt,Russell.,MIkan

WHY???

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Ever.

BALLER71
10-20-2010, 09:50 PM
Kobe wasn't even that good in the finals against the Celtics, what makes you think he'll be great against the heat?

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 09:51 PM
wow u must still be in highschool and had never seen jordan play. jordan is the GOAT and thats it. jordan coulda won 10 rings. 2 bc he left the game and another 2 if they didnt break up the team. he made every player better. he demanded perfection. he made every big shot. most efficient player. did it all man. i know kobe is a damn good player, but he didnt even win all his rings on his own. there is no way in hell kobe gets the GOAT even if he beats the heat.

sorry to call you a highschooler

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 09:52 PM
and yes i know mj had pippen, but honestly where the hell would pip be without jordan!!??

Jaji
10-20-2010, 09:52 PM
Kobe wasn't even that good in the finals against the Celtics, what makes you think he'll be great against the heat?

What are you talking about? He was Finals MVP.

:confused:

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 09:53 PM
wow u must still be in highschool and had never seen jordan play. jordan is the GOAT and thats it. jordan coulda won 10 rings. 2 bc he left the game and another 2 if they didnt break up the team. he made every player better. he demanded perfection. he made every big shot. most efficient player. did it all man. i know kobe is a damn good player, but he didnt even win all his rings on his own. there is no way in hell kobe gets the GOAT even if he beats the heat.

sorry to call you a highschooler

wrong he was indeed back in the 94-95 season and they got their *** spanked by Orlando with Jordan on the team.

dnewguy
10-20-2010, 09:53 PM
The Lakers wont beat the Heat....your fantasy is just too improbable.

elizur
10-20-2010, 09:54 PM
No, He is not close to Jordan. Period.

That period is important. There does not need to be a reason. Jordan is the best

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 09:55 PM
wrong he was indeed back in the 94-95 season and they got their *** spanked by Orlando with Jordan on the team.

:facepalm: yes i understand. but he did take a year off to play BASEBALL. he didnt play BASKETBALL. u really think a orlando magic team with young *** shaq beats the bulls rollin off what coulda been a couple championships (phoenix being a great one of the potential 2...).

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 09:55 PM
IF Kobe wins a 4-peat.. Then I will say he is better.. Kobe was unfortunate in a lot of ways, came into the league young, didnt go to college which would have made him a better player early. Came into a team with prime Shaq, which even Michael in his prime couldn't be the first option, Plus Kobe was still really young.

Then the Lakers FO couldnt get a good team around Kobe in his prime, I mean Paxson Cartwright, Grant, Pippen > Smush, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, and Lamar.

The thing Jordan did that was unprecedented was win without a dominant scoring big man, even though his big men were amazing defensively.

Jordan had better shot selection, but didnt have as good of a three point shot as Kobe did. Jordan's biggest matches and toughest games were in his own conference, so he didnt have to deal with a Boston or Piston team in the Finals which made MJ look better..

I could go on and on...

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 09:55 PM
What are you talking about? He was Finals MVP.

:confused:

tons of people think other laker shodl ahve been it.

MTar786
10-20-2010, 09:57 PM
people say kobe played bad in the finals.. but they seem to forget games 1-6. kobe was amazing. in game 5 he scored 23 consecutive points for the lakers. and only 2 points were off freethrows. stop looking for reason to hate on kobe.. he will be the equal of jordan if he beats the heat

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 09:58 PM
people say kobe played bad in the finals.. but they seem to forget games 1-6. kobe was amazing. in game 5 he scored 23 consecutive points for the lakers. and only 2 points were off freethrows. stop looking for reason to hate on kobe.. he will be the equal of jordan if he beats the heat

wow. im fine with the kobe comments except for the last line. just wow.

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 09:58 PM
Kobe wasn't even that good in the finals against the Celtics, what makes you think he'll be great against the heat?

Because the Celtics have DEFENSE, and are a better team.

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 09:58 PM
people need to go rent the best of jordan dvds and all the bulls playoff series dvds...

dee279
10-20-2010, 09:58 PM
Kobe will never be better then Micheal Jordan. Mo especially now since hes older and going to start bein on his down slope. And you ask this question as if Jordan played the Heat and couldnt beat them... What does Kobe... oooopsss i mean the Lakers beating the Heat have to do with Kobe being better then Jordan? Just means the Lakers are better then the Heat. Stupid question!

NYtilIdie
10-20-2010, 10:01 PM
What are you talking about? He was Finals MVP.

:confused:

But he didn't deserve it, Pau Gasol deserved it.

Like I said after the award was given, Kobe was the popular choice, but Pau was the right one.

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 10:04 PM
If Jay Cutler beats Peyton in the SB, is Cutler better than Dan Marino?

If the Rangers beat the Giants in the World Series, is Josh Hamilton better than Barry Bonds?

NYtilIdie
10-20-2010, 10:05 PM
IF Kobe wins a 4-peat.. Then I will say he is better.. Kobe was unfortunate in a lot of ways, came into the league young, didnt go to college which would have made him a better player early. Came into a team with prime Shaq, which even Michael in his prime couldn't be the first option, Plus Kobe was still really young.

Then the Lakers FO couldnt get a good team around Kobe in his prime, I mean Paxson Cartwright, Grant, Pippen > Smush, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, and Lamar.

The thing Jordan did that was unprecedented was win without a dominant scoring big man, even though his big men were amazing defensively.

Jordan had better shot selection, but didnt have as good of a three point shot as Kobe did. Jordan's biggest matches and toughest games were in his own conference, so he didnt have to deal with a Boston or Piston team in the Finals which made MJ look better..

I could go on and on...

What? Wouldn't that only make him look better seeing how he had to go through both of them and not just one like the Lakers would?

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 10:05 PM
Because the Celtics have DEFENSE, and are a better team.

Heat had a better defense than the Celtics last year... (and the Heat added Lebron to their defense)

: x Don't you hate those fact things? They're always in the way!

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:07 PM
wow u must still be in highschool and had never seen jordan play. jordan is the GOAT and thats it. jordan coulda won 10 rings. 2 bc he left the game and another 2 if they didnt break up the team. he made every player better. he demanded perfection. he made every big shot. most efficient player. did it all man. i know kobe is a damn good player, but he didnt even win all his rings on his own. there is no way in hell kobe gets the GOAT even if he beats the heat.

sorry to call you a highschooler

No I'm not in HS at all. In fact, my 10 year reunion is next year. I remember when Jordan was the LeBron James of the NBA: he was clearly the best but people loved to criticize him because he didn't have a ring. "All he can do is dunk on people!" they would say. I remember that well.

But anyways, you don't know what the Bulls would have won. Olajuwon's Rockets were pretty darn good. The Bulls in all 6 of their title runs only beat one truly dominant center and that's when they swept Shaq and the Magic. But Shaq was still young then. The year before the Magic got swept by the Rockets so... Point is, there's really no telling what would have happened.

But all you said about Jordan you can say about Kobe. He's the most clutch player in the game today. He makes his teammates better. He demands perfection. He's damn near a carbon copy and you're talking to a guy who saw just about every playoff game Jordan ever played.

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:08 PM
Pau did fold against KG a couple of games in the Finals as well, everybody is always quick to dismiss that. But either way, I would not have mined if Gasol won it, at this point no matter what Kobe does (including Finals MVP) he will not surpass MJ. And beating the Heat will just mean the Lakers are better than the Heat, now that Kobe is better than MJ.

dc5jdm
10-20-2010, 10:09 PM
I was watchin NBA ruondtable and they brought this up, they also said lebron can be bird,magic, kobe but not jordan because jordan never had talent around him like lebron has. But i forgot who said he can be magic, bird but not Kobe because Kobe is just a diff animal. In my opinion kobe and jordan different era but similar player.

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 10:09 PM
What? Wouldn't that only make him look better seeing how he had to go through both of them and not just one like the Lakers would?

he wouldnt go through both of them, by the time Jordan was winning titles, he was beating only one, the Pistons, by the time he was winning the Celtics were old and revamped.

It made him look better because Jordan faced his toughest challenges in the eastern conference bracket, which meant an easy win against the West

Zefflin
10-20-2010, 10:09 PM
IF Kobe wins a 4-peat.. Then I will say he is better..

To make him one higher then Jordan, with 7. Maybe. Possibly. Probably.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:09 PM
wrong he was indeed back in the 94-95 season and they got their *** spanked by Orlando with Jordan on the team.

Yeah but he only played like half that year. Orlando won it in 6. The next year with Jordan for the full season, the Bulls won 72 games and swept the Magic in the ECF.

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 10:10 PM
IF Kobe wins a 4-peat.. Then I will say he is better.. Kobe was unfortunate in a lot of ways, came into the league young, didnt go to college which would have made him a better player early. Came into a team with prime Shaq, which even Michael in his prime couldn't be the first option, Plus Kobe was still really young.

Then the Lakers FO couldnt get a good team around Kobe in his prime, I mean Paxson Cartwright, Grant, Pippen > Smush, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, and Lamar.

The thing Jordan did that was unprecedented was win without a dominant scoring big man, even though his big men were amazing defensively.

Jordan had better shot selection, but didnt have as good of a three point shot as Kobe did. Jordan's biggest matches and toughest games were in his own conference, so he didnt have to deal with a Boston or Piston team in the Finals which made MJ look better..

I could go on and on...

I could go on and on about how Kobe isn't even the best player in the league NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior Lebron and Wade are NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior MJ was to Lebron and Wade.

I could go on and on about how much better Jordan was than Kobe is on both ends.

etc...

Kobe won't even go down as the best from his time period. Shaq was way better and now Lebron is.

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 10:10 PM
What? Wouldn't that only make him look better seeing how he had to go through both of them and not just one like the Lakers would?

yea he only had to go through the pistons and then the lakers for his FIRST championship. :confused:

dc5jdm
10-20-2010, 10:12 PM
I could go on and on about how Kobe isn't even the best player in the league NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior Lebron and Wade are NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior MJ was to Lebron and Wade.

I could go on and on about how much better Jordan was than Kobe is on both ends.

etc...

Kobe won't even go down as the best from his time period. Shaq was way better and now Lebron is.


Jordan never had a Lebron or Wade to go up against, Kobe goes up against tougher competition nowadays.

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 10:12 PM
Heat had a better defense than the Celtics last year... (and the Heat added Lebron to their defense)

: x Don't you hate those fact things? They're always in the way!

The Celtics had better team defense, which is why THEY BEAT THE HEAT IN THE FIRST ROUND 4-1

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:12 PM
tons of people think other laker shodl ahve been it.

Who? :shrug:


people say kobe played bad in the finals.. but they seem to forget games 1-6. kobe was amazing. in game 5 he scored 23 consecutive points for the lakers. and only 2 points were off freethrows. stop looking for reason to hate on kobe.. he will be the equal of jordan if he beats the heat

Exactly. And even in game 7, he may have shot poorly that game but he pulled down 15 rebounds from the 2 spot. Wow. I have to give him props for that.

Ezekial
10-20-2010, 10:13 PM
Kobe can average 50 points a game this year and I'll still consider MJ the GOAT.

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 10:13 PM
Yeah but he only played like half that year. Orlando won it in 6. The next year with Jordan for the full season, the Bulls won 72 games and swept the Magic in the ECF.

amen

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:14 PM
If Jay Cutler beats Peyton in the SB, is Cutler better than Dan Marino?

If the Rangers beat the Giants in the World Series, is Josh Hamilton better than Barry Bonds?

:facepalm:

Fail. No. FALE!

When has Jay Cutler ever been compared to Dan Marino?

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 10:14 PM
I could go on and on about how Kobe isn't even the best player in the league NOW. Then do it.

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:15 PM
Who? :shrug:

PSD calls them "Kobe haters".

ecorrea
10-20-2010, 10:15 PM
he wouldnt go through both of them, by the time Jordan was winning titles, he was beating only one, the Pistons, by the time he was winning the Celtics were old and revamped.

It made him look better because Jordan faced his toughest challenges in the eastern conference bracket, which meant an easy win against the West

wow.

jordan went up against magic, clyde, barkley and KJ

then yes ok fine, the sonics were lame, but then beat stockton malone 2 yrs in a row.

i really dont understand your comments

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Kobe can average 50 points a game this year and I'll still consider MJ the GOAT.

You're just proving my point though. People just say that because its the thing to say. Kevin Durant could win 12 straight titles and people would still have their eyes closed and arms crossed shaking their head "no." With no reason or nothing to back up their claim. Simply "because."

kjoke
10-20-2010, 10:18 PM
if key word here, they wont

LAKERMANIA
10-20-2010, 10:19 PM
wow.

jordan went up against magic, clyde, barkley and KJ

then yes ok fine, the sonics were lame, but then beat stockton malone 2 yrs in a row.

i really dont understand your comments

Magic? I would like to see MJ go against the 1987 Lakers when Magic was really MAGIC and there was Kareem and a healthy Scott and Big Game James..

My point is, I believe Kobe is facing tougher competition, thats just my opinion, but I believe it, the toughest competition MJ faced were the Jazz and to his credit beat them twice.

ONCE AGAIN I DO BELIEVE MJ IS BETTER THAN KOBE, but the competition in the 90s wasn't as tough as it is today

marlinsfan24
10-20-2010, 10:20 PM
The problem is that people are too in love with MJ to ever have anyone compared to him. Even if someone comes along and does everything Jordan did and tops that, people will deny them of what they deserve, the GOAT title. Truth is, Jordan can never lose that title.

I'm not saying Kobe is better then him, I think Kobe will go down as the 2nd best of all-time. And even as a Heat fan, I know that Kobe>Wade, Kobe>Lebron.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:20 PM
I could go on and on about how Kobe isn't even the best player in the league NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior Lebron and Wade are NOW.

I could go on and on about how vastly superior MJ was to Lebron and Wade.

I could go on and on about how much better Jordan was than Kobe is on both ends.

etc...

Kobe won't even go down as the best from his time period. Shaq was way better and now Lebron is.

I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about all time. Brandon Roy may be better than Jordan NOW. LeBron is easily the best player in the league right now, and possibly the future GOAT (realistically, no PSD hate involved).

Anyways, your post doesn't say anything at all. Wade is not vastly better than Kobe. Jordan isn't vastly better than LeBron. You're going off nothing but cliches and have no evidence whatsoever to support your claims. You might as well be updating your status on facebook because you're bringing nothing to this discussion at all.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:25 PM
The problem is that people are too in love with MJ to ever have anyone compared to him. Even if someone comes along and does everything Jordan did and tops that, people will deny them of what they deserve, the GOAT title. Truth is, Jordan can never lose that title.

I'm not saying Kobe is better then him, I think Kobe will go down as the 2nd best of all-time. And even as a Heat fan, I know that Kobe>Wade, Kobe>Lebron.

I agree. This pedestal thing is ridiculous. I wouldn't say Kobe > LeBron though. All time? Maybe at this point because LeBron is still very young but when its all said in done I think LeBron will surpass Kobe and Jordan :hide:. Just my opinion but I know there are plenty who share that sentiment.

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 10:28 PM
Magic, Bird, JOrdan NEVER costed their teams a defeat in teh finals because they greedely shot the team out of the games.
KObe did that in the 04 finals and 08 finals.
They also never ran their Great team mates out of their CHAMPIONSHIP caliber teams because of greed and or envy.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:28 PM
wow.

jordan went up against magic, clyde, barkley and KJ

then yes ok fine, the sonics were lame, but then beat stockton malone 2 yrs in a row.

i really dont understand your comments

Magic. Period. Clyde. Period. Neither Barkley and KJ nor 30+ year old Malone and Stockton equals LeBron and Wade. None of those 5 teams compare to what the Heat are bringing to the table.

Hoopsadvocate
10-20-2010, 10:29 PM
Jordan never had a Lebron or Wade to go up against, Kobe goes up against tougher competition nowadays.

LMAO!!!

Jordan had charles barkley, karl malone, isiah thomas, and clyde drexler

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:34 PM
I agree. This pedestal thing is ridiculous. I wouldn't say Kobe > LeBron though. All time? Maybe at this point because LeBron is still very young but when its all said in done I think LeBron will surpass Kobe and Jordan :hide:. Just my opinion but I know there are plenty who share that sentiment.

There is no "maybe" about Kobe being better than Lebron in terms of careers.

Kobe is without a doubt better than Lebron in terms of career and legacy, and Lebron has a way to go to catch up to Kobe in terms of achievements.

bagwell368
10-20-2010, 10:35 PM
Paul Pierce and Ray Allen plus the Celts put the hammer down on Kobe a couple of years ago, and Kobe rolled over and balled up - that moment alone is ample evidence that he will never be Jordan, no matter how hard he tries, and he knows it, even if he'll never say it.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:35 PM
LMAO!!!

Jordan had charles barkley, karl malone, isiah thomas, and clyde drexler

None of those guys will ever be considered the GOAT by anyone. LeBron is. And D Wade is the 2nd best 2nd option in NBA history behind Kobe who was more of a 1B. Those guys/teams don't compare.

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 10:36 PM
I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about all time. Brandon Roy may be better than Jordan NOW. LeBron is easily the best player in the league right now, and possibly the future GOAT (realistically, no PSD hate involved).

Anyways, your post doesn't say anything at all. Wade is not vastly better than Kobe. Jordan isn't vastly better than LeBron. You're going off nothing but cliches and have no evidence whatsoever to support your claims. You might as well be updating your status on facebook because you're bringing nothing to this discussion at all.

Just those statistical things... I know they're not like... facts or anything.

Kobe is not comparable as a player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=jamesle01&y2=2010&p3=jordami01&y3=2003&p4=wadedw01&y4=2010

Look at the advanced section and pay attention (esp. to the WS/48 which IMO is the most telling stat). And don't ever make another stupid thread like this.

MJ>>Lebron>>>Wade>Kobe...

PatsSoxKnicks
10-20-2010, 10:36 PM
Wow, 4 pages in and no one has brought up any numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jordami01&y1=2003&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010

Jordan has Kobe beat in pretty much everything (from TS% to eFG% to AST% to TRB% etc.). One more ring is not likely to change that fact.

dc5jdm
10-20-2010, 10:39 PM
LMAO!!!

Jordan had charles barkley, karl malone, isiah thomas, and clyde drexler

il honestly take a prime wade and lebron over em

Burkey3472
10-20-2010, 10:39 PM
When just using the eye test I believe that MJ in his prime was better player then Kobe. Kobe could eventually jump ahead of him in titles but just using the eye test it says that MJ was better. That's not a shot at Kobe though, he is going to go down as one of the best once he is finished.

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 10:39 PM
Magic? I would like to see MJ go against the 1987 Lakers when Magic was really MAGIC and there was Kareem and a healthy Scott and Big Game James..

My point is, I believe Kobe is facing tougher competition, thats just my opinion, but I believe it, the toughest competition MJ faced were the Jazz and to his credit beat them twice.

ONCE AGAIN I DO BELIEVE MJ IS BETTER THAN KOBE, but the competition in the 90s wasn't as tough as it is today

magic still was very good in 1991....... and jordans side kick pippen who is highly underrated shut magic down. jordan in 93 was unguardable. I respect your opinion, but really the 90's was a lot more tougher back then. if jordan played now a days with the lack of defense compared to the 90's and 80's and without the hand checking rule, jordan would average 40-50 a game...... id bet anything on it.

TrueFan420
10-20-2010, 10:39 PM
here is why no one will ever pass jordan: a) you would have to top everything he did on the court which is extremely hard because he did it all including making his teammates better which you dont see sg's do. b) prob even harder than the first you have to transcend the sport which no one will ever do it like jordan did because he was the first to do it

htownpresnta86
10-20-2010, 10:41 PM
put it like this kobe had shaq, bynum, gasol; jordan had wut good centers like wut kobe had jordan did things n his own hands when tha team needed it kobe crys 4 roll players n wanted phil jackson so he took jordans coach

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:42 PM
Paul Pierce and Ray Allen plus the Celts put the hammer down on Kobe a couple of years ago, and Kobe rolled over and balled up - that moment alone is ample evidence that he will never be Jordan, no matter how hard he tries, and he knows it, even if he'll never say it.

That was a great Boston team. And a great defensive team. The Celtics were favored to win that year. I don't think anyone even picked the Lakers to win the West that year. Now had the Lakers beat that team I would have been thoroughly impressed because Boston was clearly better. Jordan's Bulls never beat a team of that caliber before.

marlinsfan24
10-20-2010, 10:43 PM
magic still was very good in 1991....... and jordans side kick pippen who is highly underrated shut magic down. jordan in 93 was unguardable. I respect your opinion, but really the 90's was a lot more tougher back then. if jordan played now a days with the lack of defense compared to the 90's and 80's and without the hand checking rule, jordan would aver 40-50 a game...... id bet anything on it.

Yes the defenses are weaker now but the game has become more of a running, fast paced game, we don't know for sure how MJ would do now. The games become softer, but it has revolutionized since Jordan's day. I don't really think it's fair to compare ERA's. But this is just my opinion.

dee279
10-20-2010, 10:43 PM
I think Lebron could end up being the best all around player ever but he dont have the Killer instinct of a Micheal Jordan or Kobe Bryant or even Dwyane Wade to say he is the best ever. MJ is the best Guard ever i would say. I wont say the best player ever because stats wise Wilt dominates everyone but i was no where near alive then so i dont know the talent or even rules of that day. MJ probably could do better in todays game then in his era and in his era he avg. over 32 points. Kobe is an all time great even if he retires today but hes not better then MJ and he wont be. The best player MJ has played with was Scottie Pippen, and dont get me wrong Scottie is a great player but i would pick an in his prime Shaq over Pippen in his. MJ changed the game quickly, and Kobe pretty much just took the reigns. Kobe will go down as one of the greatest but will not surpass the legacy off MJ.

jchase081
10-20-2010, 10:44 PM
if Kobe wins another one to make it 6 championships, tying Jordan, in this era when even Jordan himself said the players today are much more athletic and talented than his own era, especially if he beats the all-star team in miami, Kobe will be the G.O.A.T. In my mind, he is more talented than Jordan or anyone else who has ever played the game... the only thing left, and the most important, is Jordan has 6 and Kobe has 5... right now, and Kobe is still only 32 years old... Jordan only had 3 at this point in his career. BUT, until that time comes... Jordan is still the G.O.A.T. Let's see what the Black Mamba can do.

LeBitteNoir
10-20-2010, 10:44 PM
LOL @ thinking Lakers will beat MIAMI. HAHAH!!!! Drop the crack pipe, bud.

htownpresnta86
10-20-2010, 10:44 PM
alot of ppl had tha lakers winning tha west when they got artest so where were u when that happend

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:44 PM
There is no "maybe" about Kobe being better than Lebron in terms of careers.

Kobe is without a doubt better than Lebron in terms of career and legacy, and Lebron has a way to go to catch up to Kobe in terms of achievements.

:facepalm:

Comprehend what you read much?

Baller1
10-20-2010, 10:46 PM
Kobe: 5 for 7 in the finals (With Pau Gasol, Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton)

Jordan: 6 for 6 in the finals

Hmmm...

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:47 PM
:facepalm:

Comprehend what you read much?

I comprehended you said "maybe", and there is no maybe's about it.

Heck, it's okay, I would have said the same thing if I had nothing else to say.

marlinsfan24
10-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Kobe: 5 for 7 in the finals (With Pau Gasol, Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton)

Jordan: 6 for 6 in the finals

Hmmm...

Malone and Payton were near the ends of their careers and don't act like MJ did it alone. He had Kukoch, Rodman, and Pippen.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Just those statistical things... I know they're not like... facts or anything.

Kobe is not comparable as a player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=jamesle01&y2=2010&p3=jordami01&y3=2003&p4=wadedw01&y4=2010

Look at the advanced section and pay attention (esp. to the WS/48 which IMO is the most telling stat). And don't ever make another stupid thread like this.

MJ>>Lebron>>>Wade>Kobe...

:facepalm:

Wade is not better than Kobe, guy. Wade will never be better than Kobe. :facepalm:

Revolu7i9n
10-20-2010, 10:48 PM
Jordan>Kobe.

don't get me wrong, Kobe has my utmost respect as a basketball player, but he hopped on Shaq's back for half of his titles... HE brough LA 2 trophies. Jordan brought 6. It's like saying Pippen is better than Kobe cuz he had 6 titles to 5. Pippen wasn't the main man in those finals.

haha does that make sense?

PatsSoxKnicks
10-20-2010, 10:48 PM
None of those guys will ever be considered the GOAT by anyone. LeBron is. And D Wade is the 2nd best 2nd option in NBA history behind Kobe who was more of a 1B. Those guys/teams don't compare.

No Wade right now is better then Kobe was when Kobe was a 2nd option to Shaq. Although, I suppose it is close.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2002&p2=wadedw01&y2=2010

jchase081
10-20-2010, 10:48 PM
and for anyone who wants to say "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better"... Pau Gasol is NOW considered by many analysts as a top 3 big man in the NBA (what was he in Memphis?) Lamar Odom... considered a bust UNTIL he came to L.A. now he is the best 6th man in the league. Andrew Bynum has continued to show improvement. Derek Fisher left for 2 years and was awful. Trevor Ariza... went from no-name player, to starter on LA's championship team and key contributor, got paid and now he's mediocre. Shannon Brown... no name player 1st round bust, comes to LA and every team wanted him in the off-season. And the funny thing is... the players who were free agents like Fisher and Brown said they came back because of KOBE.

marlinsfan24
10-20-2010, 10:49 PM
:facepalm:

Wade is not better than Kobe, guy. Wade will never be better than Kobe. :facepalm:

I'm 100% agreeing with this statement...I'd even go as far as saying prime T-Mac>Wade.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:49 PM
I comprehended you said "maybe", and there is no maybe's about it.

Heck, it's okay, I would have said the same thing if I had nothing else to say.

Try reading the whole sentence and then comprehending it. You're smarter than that, guy.

ManningToTyree
10-20-2010, 10:50 PM
Not even close. If theyh both had six rings Jordan still has far better indivdual statistics and accolades. period. no debate

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 10:50 PM
Yes the defenses are weaker now but the game has become more of a running, fast paced game, we don't know for sure how MJ would do now. The games become softer, but it has revolutionized since Jordan's day. I don't really think it's fair to compare ERA's. But this is just my opinion.

Jordan's team back in the day when he was younger was a little more wide open. it was the triangle defense that slowed jordans game down, but if you go to 7:40 in the video..... you will see variety of michaels skills just off of one steal, the ball handling, the quickness with the ball, and even being able to hit the shot from going coast to coast. the reason why so many people pretty much worshiped this guy cause he pretty much proved it is possible to do anything when you put your mind to it. whatever he wanted to do, he did. no athlete in any sport has been able to come close to that. in every publication ive seen from espn to sports illustrated has michael as the greatest athlete ever. the only ones who say other wise just never seen michael play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_nGlfjZTI

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:51 PM
No Wade right now is better then Kobe was when Kobe was a 2nd option to Shaq. Although, I suppose it is close.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2002&p2=wadedw01&y2=2010

We've never seen Wade as LeBron's sidekick so how can you even compare? Furthermore how can you provide stats for such futuristic events?

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 10:52 PM
I'm 100% agreeing with this statement...I'd even go as far as saying prime T-Mac>Wade.

if tmac never would of had that back problem, he would of gone down as one of the greatest ever. a 6ft 8inch guy who could shoot from anywhere, jump from everywhere and have the reach like he did........ man he was awesome.

PatsSoxKnicks
10-20-2010, 10:53 PM
:facepalm:

Wade is not better than Kobe, guy. Wade will never be better than Kobe. :facepalm:

Why? Do you bother to look at statistics at all? I won't say for Wade's career he's better then Kobe. But right now, in 2010, who is better? I think Wade is. And if you want to compare their seasons last year (look at the advanced stats)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=wadedw01&y3=2010

That's not deserving of a facepalm to say Wade is better then Kobe right now. It is arguable. :hide:

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:53 PM
Try reading the whole sentence and then comprehending it. You're smarter than that, guy.

Ok..... guess what? the "MAYBE" is still there. There are no MAYBE's. You can't compare Lebron to Kobe in terms of legacies and say "maybe at this point Kobe is better" .. I just don't get it. If we're talking about RIGHT NOW, would you say "maybe Kobe is better.." no, you would say "Lebron is better right now". Well in terms of legacies, it's the exact thing.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:53 PM
I'm 100% agreeing with this statement...I'd even go as far as saying prime T-Mac>Wade.

And I'm gonna agree 100% with this statement.

NYY NYJ NYK
10-20-2010, 10:53 PM
I like Kobe but no,

Their is only one Jordan. And he is the G.O.A.T

marlinsfan24
10-20-2010, 10:54 PM
Jordan's team back in the day when he was younger was a little more wide open. it was the triangle defense that slowed jordans game down, but if you go to 7:40 in the video..... you will see variety of michaels skills just off of one steal, the ball handling, the quickness with the ball, and even being able to hit the shot from going coast to coast. the reason why so many people pretty much worshiped this guy cause he pretty much proved it is possible to do anything when you put your mind to it. whatever he wanted to do, he did. no athlete in any sport has been able to come close to that. in every publication ive seen from espn to sports illustrated has michael as the greatest athlete ever. the only ones who say other wise just never seen michael play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_nGlfjZTI

I don't disagree with you that he's the best ever. He was something else to watch. But my point is that nobody will ever appreciate what we are watching now because they keep talking about what MJ would do now. I loved watching MJ play as a very young kid, but I love watching the NBA superstars now and when you compare them to Jordan, it's very unfair. I'd rather focus on what they can do and not have them compared to Jordan. Like I feel like one day we'll have a thread about how Jordan even takes dumps better then Lebron or Kobe.

D Roses Bulls
10-20-2010, 10:54 PM
I like Kobe but no,

Their is only one Jordan. And he is the G.O.A.T

exactly and as a new york fan, you should know better then anyone

Avenged
10-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Why? Do you bother to look at statistics at all? I won't say for Wade's career he's better then Kobe. But right now, in 2010, who is better? I think Wade is. And if you want to compare their seasons last year (look at the advanced stats)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=wadedw01&y3=2010

That's not deserving of a facepalm to say Wade is better then Kobe right now. It is arguable. :hide:

He likes to throw facepalms when people don't bow down to what he says. :shrug:

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Ok..... guess what? the "MAYBE" is still there. There are no MAYBE's. You can't compare Lebron to Kobe in terms of legacies and say "maybe at this point Kobe is better" .. I just don't get it. If we're talking about RIGHT NOW, would you say "maybe Kobe is better.." no, you would say "Lebron is better right now". Well in terms of legacies, it's the exact thing.

Just drop it dude. All you're proving is you're not very good at comprehending what you read. If all you see in an entire paragraph is one word then you very well may suffer from ADD (which I'm not necessarily saying is a bad thing, I'm just saying).

PatsSoxKnicks
10-20-2010, 10:56 PM
We've never seen Wade as LeBron's sidekick so how can you even compare? Furthermore how can you provide stats for such futuristic events?

Ok, so then how can you say he's the 2nd best 2nd option in NBA history? How do you know he won't be the 1st best 2nd option in NBA history if you haven't seen them play yet?

Baller1
10-20-2010, 10:57 PM
Malone and Payton were near the ends of their careers and don't act like MJ did it alone. He had Kukoch, Rodman, and Pippen.

A declining Payton and Malone or not, a team of Kobe/Shaq/Payton/Malone should not lose to the Pistons.

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 10:57 PM
Jordan beat the Monstars and Kobe did not. So until he does, Jordan > Kobe.

_KB24_
10-20-2010, 10:57 PM
Magic, Bird, JOrdan NEVER costed their teams a defeat in teh finals because they greedely shot the team out of the games.
KObe did that in the 04 finals and 08 finals.
They also never ran their Great team mates out of their CHAMPIONSHIP caliber teams because of greed and or envy.

Crooner, learn to look into your own people for bashing others. If Pau did not have a vagina back in 08 (still think he does), we would have won. Look at how guys like Powe and Brown destroyed him down low. I don't want to even mention the rape scene put on by Garnett down low. But I know your defense, the same you used for this year, that Pau did not get ANY CALLS and was tortured.

And don't even bring up 04. Kobe was the reason we even won a game in the Finals. Don't want to even begin to dissect what happened wrong their, going to take way too long.

pistonsfanomg
10-20-2010, 10:58 PM
no

the nba is nothing like the 80's 90's

too boring and I wasn't even alive/interested to experience it -.- lol

Jaji
10-20-2010, 10:58 PM
He likes to throw facepalms when people don't bow down to what he says. :shrug:

:facepalm:

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 10:59 PM
:facepalm:

Wade is not better than Kobe, guy. Wade will never be better than Kobe. :facepalm:

This has now amused me. This hypocrisy is SO clear.

Not only do you go ahead and say it's a cliche to say Jordan is the GOAT (despite statistical backup), then you do the same thing you're wagging your finger at only with Kobe over Wade.

The only difference is that your idea behind the thread has no logic or #s behind it, but me saying Wade is better than Kobe has logic and #s.

So hypocritical and ignorant... that's hot.

Baller1
10-20-2010, 11:00 PM
Crooner, learn to look into your own people for bashing others. If Pau did not have a vagina back in 08 (still think he does), we would have won. Look at how guys like Powe and Brown destroyed him down low. I don't want to even mention the rape scene put on by Garnett down low. But I know your defense, the same you used for this year, that Pau did not get ANY CALLS and was tortured.

And don't even bring up 04. Kobe was the reason we even won a game in the Finals. Don't want to even begin to dissect what happened wrong their, going to take way too long.

I hate Kobe and Pau about equal, but this is true. If Pau wasn't such a ***** (although he still is, just a very, very skilled *****), then the Lakers might have won that series.

_KB24_
10-20-2010, 11:00 PM
And no I don't think Kobe will ever be known as the GOAT. I do think if he were to beat the Heat, that it would cement his spot as the undisputable 2nd GOAT. It would certainly be one of the greatest victories over an opponent when looking at the sheer context of their opponents. Certainly better than any team Jordan beat(Kobe has already "1up" him here beating the Celtics).

avrpatsfan
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
This is actually a tough question. But I don't feel like getting into the fray.

dhopisthename
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Wow, 4 pages in and no one has brought up any numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jordami01&y1=2003&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010

Jordan has Kobe beat in pretty much everything (from TS% to eFG% to AST% to TRB% etc.). One more ring is not likely to change that fact.

this is why kobe is not better then jordan and at this point in his career he never will be. Jordan scored more then kobe and did more efficiently. Also, Jordan played better defense then kobe.

footballer2369
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Ok, so then how can you say he's the 2nd best 2nd option in NBA history? How do you know he won't be the 1st best 2nd option in NBA history if you haven't seen them play yet?

Stop, he doesn't like logic.

However, if you would like to go against popular opinion AND have no reason or statistical evidence he would have to consider your thesis.

NBA-GMaster
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
nope JORDAN still ahead to KOBE..

_KB24_
10-20-2010, 11:02 PM
I hate Kobe and Pau about equal, but this is true. If Pau wasn't such a ***** (although he still is, just a very, very skilled *****), then the Lakers might have won that series.

Trade? Pau's left hand for Ibaka's "manly jewels"!?? ;)

:laugh:

Hellcrooner
10-20-2010, 11:02 PM
how manh ****jing touches did the ballhog allow Pau ( or any one else on the team) get in the 08 finals?


that and not other was the reason for the failure.

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 11:02 PM
A declining Payton and Malone or not, a team of Kobe/Shaq/Payton/Malone should not lose to the Pistons.

The Pistons D was at near mythological proportions that year. Switch Jordan and Kobe, the Pistons still win that series imo.

brodawgs
10-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Ok..... guess what? the "MAYBE" is still there. There are no MAYBE's. You can't compare Lebron to Kobe in terms of legacies and say "maybe at this point Kobe is better" .. I just don't get it. If we're talking about RIGHT NOW, would you say "maybe Kobe is better.." no, you would say "Lebron is better right now". Well in terms of legacies, it's the exact thing.
I would say comparing legacies of people who are currently in the league means literally nothing. Their careers aren't finished yet. Legacy is a reflection of an ENTIRE career. If you're asking who has done the most so far, well obviously Kobe, he's been in the league longer.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Why? Do you bother to look at statistics at all? I won't say for Wade's career he's better then Kobe. But right now, in 2010, who is better? I think Wade is. And if you want to compare their seasons last year (look at the advanced stats)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=wadedw01&y3=2010

That's not deserving of a facepalm to say Wade is better then Kobe right now. It is arguable. :hide:

This thread is pretty much an all time kind of discussion. As I said earlier, Brandon Roy might be better than Jordan right now. But even now, I'd still take Kobe over Wade. Sure its debatable. Everyone will have their opinion. But I like to consider the fact that Kobe played with a broken finger last year. Fingers are pretty important in basketball. And he still got the ultimate results.

MrfadeawayJB
10-20-2010, 11:04 PM
I would say they would be just about equal

NBAfan4life
10-20-2010, 11:05 PM
I love how people say Kobe is not even in Jordan's class. Jordan = GOAT, but Kobe is close and if he wins a few more championships he will finish his career not that far out of Jordans range.

Due to Kobes circumstances of when he came into this league (Shaq) he will never get the full credit he deserves.

I think if Kobe stays healthy for a few more years he goes down as the second best guard ever

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 11:07 PM
I would say they would be just about equal

Your SIG is hilarious.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:08 PM
I would say comparing legacies of people who are currently in the league means literally nothing. Their careers aren't finished yet. Legacy is a reflection of an ENTIRE career. If you're asking who has done the most so far, well obviously Kobe, he's been in the league longer.

Which I went on to say in the exact same sentence he's talking about :pity:.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:10 PM
Ok, so then how can you say he's the 2nd best 2nd option in NBA history? How do you know he won't be the 1st best 2nd option in NBA history if you haven't seen them play yet?

Touche, touche. But I have a very simple answer to that: Kobe > Wade.

JARVIS123
10-20-2010, 11:11 PM
Hell no! Kobe - 25.3 ppg/1.5 spg/4.7 apg/5.3 rpg/.455 fg%/ 5 rings 1 mvp. the G.O.A.T. - 30.1 PPG/2.3 SPG/5.3 APG/6.2 RPG/.497 FG%/6 RINGS 5 MVP.Do i need to say more like MJ 6 finals mvp & 1 Defensive Player of the Year
.

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 11:13 PM
Hell no! Kobe - 25.3 ppg/1.5 spg/4.7 apg/5.3 rpg/.455 fg%/ 5 rings 1 mvp. the G.O.A.T. - 30.1 PPG/2.3 SPG/5.3 APG/6.2 RPG/.497 FG%/6 RINGS 5 MVP.Do i need to say more like MJ 6 finals mvp & 1 Defensive Player of the Year
.

If it were as simple as individual statistics compared that would be great, but unfortunately it's not that simple.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:14 PM
I love how people say Kobe is not even in Jordan's class. Jordan = GOAT, but Kobe is close and if he wins a few more championships he will finish his career not that far out of Jordans range.

Due to Kobes circumstances of when he came into this league (Shaq) he will never get the full credit he deserves.

I think if Kobe stays healthy for a few more years he goes down as the second best guard ever

I think its safe to say Kobe would not have won a title, much less 3 early in his career without Shaq. But the thing is, Shaq would not have won those 3 titles without Kobe either! The Lakers had the best big and the best wing in the league. Shaq or not, Kobe was still the best wing. Maybe T-Mac would have been in the debate back then but in retrospect I think its easy to see Kobe was the best swingman in the league.

madiaz3
10-20-2010, 11:14 PM
Kobe: 5 for 7 in the finals (With Pau Gasol, Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton)

Jordan: 6 for 6 in the finals

Hmmm...

It's like you're giving him credit for not even making the finals the year he lost to Orlando.

NBAfan4life
10-20-2010, 11:15 PM
MVP's are not that good of an indicator. Consider Shaq only having one in his entire career.

PatsSoxKnicks
10-20-2010, 11:16 PM
This thread is pretty much an all time kind of discussion. As I said earlier, Brandon Roy might be better than Jordan right now. But even now, I'd still take Kobe over Wade. Sure its debatable. Everyone will have their opinion. But I like to consider the fact that Kobe played with a broken finger last year. Fingers are pretty important in basketball. And he still got the ultimate results.

Neither have finished their career though, so its not entirely fair to compare them. Kobe has more accomplishments but I think Wade's best season was better then Kobe's best season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=wadedw01&y2=2009&p3=bryanko01&y3=2006

In the end, Kobe may end up being better because he'll have a bunch of years on Wade.

And right now, why would you take Kobe over Wade? Because his team won the championship? Statistically, Wade was a more efficient scorer, better passer, and better defender. Kobe rebounded the ball better but Wade was a better offensive rebounder. WS/48 shows Wade was quite a bit better last year.

In the playoffs, in the 5 games Wade had, he was very good against a very good Celtics defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=wadedw01&y3=2010

To me, that shows that right now Wade is the better player.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:16 PM
The Lakers wont beat the Heat....your fantasy is just too improbable.

Not a fantasy of mine at all. I'm rolling with LeBron and the Heat :cool:.

Anyways... I like your sig.

CBCable
10-20-2010, 11:17 PM
i am predicting a lakers/heat finals (wild, i know) with lakers ultimately taking home the hardware.

that being said,

no. no. no. never. no. never. no.

MJ was right when he recently said Kobe was "top 10". Not top 5. Not top 2. Top 10.

Even if he beats the heat, it wont cement him as either top 5 or top 2. It's the ideal swan song to a tremendous career, but any comparison to MJ or the others who inhabit the top spot is unjustified.

anyone who would argue otherwise has a one season attention span or a complete disregard for the history of the game.

and furthermore, by you guys ascribing to and perpetuating the belief that Kobes IS #2 or challenges Jordan for the top spot, you're doing a disservice to Bryant's legacy and contributions to the game.

let the man be. he's a winner. isn't that enough?

NBAfan4life
10-20-2010, 11:18 PM
I think its safe to say Kobe would not have won a title, much less 3 early in his career without Shaq. But the thing is, Shaq would not have won those 3 titles without Kobe either! The Lakers had the best big and the best wing in the league. Shaq or not, Kobe was still the best wing. Maybe T-Mac would have been in the debate back then but in retrospect I think its easy to see Kobe was the best swingman in the league.

I'm not saying he would of won without Shaq, but people hold it against Kobe for being on Shaq's team. It is not his fault he had such a dominate big.

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 11:18 PM
I think its safe to say Kobe would not have won a title, much less 3 early in his career without Shaq. But the thing is, Shaq would not have won those 3 titles without Kobe either!

To be fair Jaji, we will never know if Shaq could have won those by himself because he was never given the chance. I still hold firm to my belief that Shaq (in his prime) was only held down by his teammates and would have won the championship every season had he been the only guy on the floor.

masalex1205
10-20-2010, 11:20 PM
i know people stubbornly dismiss this fact all the time but kobe is pretty damn close to mj. Their games, their competitiveness, their success. If kobe is able to topple the high profile, star studded heat in the finals, completing the 2nd 3-peat for kobe, how do they compare?

I hear all the time that kobe isn't jordan but that seems like a cliche to me. No one ever gives a reason, its just what "you're supposed to say." eff that! I'm challenging the status quo. Because i remember a time when jordan wasn't the goat, but then things changed. The only constant is change. So what does kobe have to do in order to be the goat?

**** this

Wisdom Listens
10-20-2010, 11:22 PM
**** this

lol

el_primo_nano
10-20-2010, 11:24 PM
No.

And he can win the next 20 rings and not be better than Magic,Jordan, Bird,Wilt,Russell.,MIkan

wow. unbelievable. lol:facepalm: enough said

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:27 PM
Neither have finished their career though, so its not entirely fair to compare them. Kobe has more accomplishments but I think Wade's best season was better then Kobe's best season. In the end, Kobe may end up being better because he'll have a bunch of years on Wade.

And right now, why would you take Kobe over Wade? Because his team won the championship? Statistically, Wade was a more efficient scorer, better passer, and better defender. Kobe rebounded the ball better but Wade was a better offensive rebounder. WS/48 shows Wade was quite a bit better last year.

In the playoffs, in the 5 games Wade had, he was very good against a very good Celtics defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p2=bryanko01&y2=2010&p3=wadedw01&y3=2010

To me, that shows that right now Wade is the better player.

I don't see how you can say Wade's best was better than Kobe's best. I don't see how you can say Wade's best was better than Kobe's 2nd best (35 ppg in 05-06, his MVP year being his best).

I'm not saying Wade is a bad player by any means. But Kobe Bryant is on another level. The very fact that Wade in his prime isn't hands down better than an aging Kobe says a lot. But I don't think its as simple as numbers. They were obviously on different teams which means different circumstances. Curious how you can call Wade a better defender though when Kobe routinely gets the nod for 1st team defense over Wade at the same position.

Jaji
10-20-2010, 11:29 PM
I'm not saying he would of won without Shaq, but people hold it against Kobe for being on Shaq's team. It is not his fault he had such a dominate big.

Yeah I know what you were saying and I agree. I was just adding to that. People try to hold that against Kobe as though he was Adam Morrison on the team. Without Kobe, that team wouldn't have won any titles. Definitely not 3 in a row. But I'm right with you there.

JordansBulls
10-20-2010, 11:30 PM
Threads will be closed if it has Player A > Player B in the title. If you want to start a thread asking about Kobe's ranking all time if he wins the title against the Heat next year, then that is one thing, but to simply just put a Player A > Player B then that is pretty much trolling.

You weren't like it if a thread was started saying if Denver beat Miami in the finals this would that mean Melo > Lebron would you?