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Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:17 PM
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2010/10/7/1736580/the-2010-nba-all-overrated-team


FIRST TEAM

G - Kobe Bryant

I can't count how many articles I read this summer, announcing that LeBron James isn't the king anymore after his PR debacle of a summer, and that the crown has been restored to Kobe Bryant. Setting aside the fact that this topic is utterly inane, this is what philosophers like to call a false choice.

Kobe is a fine player, and a deserving all-star. But, from a purely basketball perspective, Pau Gasol is the star of that show. He has even become a better passer. If Kobe isn't the best player on his own team, he isn't the best player in basketball, and he'd have to contend with Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan besides.

G - Derrick Rose

A superstar in the making, an all-star already... But enough about Kevin Durant. At this point, it is clear that Derrick Rose has some serious gaps in his game, notably shooting and defense, which come in handy at the pro level. He has yet to demonstrate a superior ability to get to the free throw line, and he is not an outstanding distributor, both of which facts will make it difficult for him to succeed at the point guard position. What part of this profile "superstar" to you?





C - Brendan Haywood

When a once in a decade free agent frenzy hits, you can be sure that some sensible, 10 and 10 guy is going to be wildly overpaid. It's like how used Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas cost $15k during a spike in fuel prices.

So it's not surprising that a guy like Haywood would hit the jackpot. What is surprising is that nobody thought it was a bad idea. The people who were up in arms about Travis Outlaw type signings were mum on the fact that Dallas paid $50 million to re-sign a middling center in his thirties. The NBA: Where "Average is the new Awesome" happens.

F - Carmelo Anthony

For a spell, it looked like Anthony was going to play himself off the list. He was hitting shots, getting to the line with absurd frequency, and the Nuggets were looking like threats to come out of the West. Then he reverted to the old 'Melo, with the 10-29 shooting nights and stretches of missed games.

Look, if the only thing you're going to do is shoot, you'd better be really, really good at it if you want to turn down $60 million contracts. Like Reggie Miller good. Carmelo Anthony is not Reggie Miller good.

F - Rudy Gay

It would he hard to find a more average player than Rudy Gay. For his position, he's an average shooter, passer, rebounder and defender. He gets to the lane an average amount of time, and hits an average percentage of his attempts. He is the average height and weight, and plays the average position (small forward). Naturally, he is now one of the highest paid professional athletes in this or any sport.


While I know this could go south quickly, please try and keep it rational. Thoughts?

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:23 PM
That is actually a solid list... I think I would have picked a very similar list. Although I think that Noah and Bynum (injury) are also over stated. I agree with the rest of the selections though.

Gators123
10-13-2010, 12:25 PM
Solid list.

lakers4sho
10-13-2010, 12:26 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Kobe_Bryant would like to say hello

JWO35
10-13-2010, 12:27 PM
6th man: Andrew Bynum

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:27 PM
I dont understand why this is difficult to understand... no one is saying that Kobe is over-rated historically...

We are saying that people still see Kobe as he was 5 years ago, and he isnt that player anymore. TODAY he is overrated.

Allstar21
10-13-2010, 12:29 PM
Haywood isn't overrated...just overpaid

i don't think anybody wants to compare him to the top centers in the league (or at least rational people wouldn't)
Lol at Kobe being overrated

Who here thinks the Lakers win the title without Kobe and with Gasol being the go-to guy? Anyone? Kobe being overrated is like saying MJ was overrated.....sure they aren't perfect, but they do seem to win a lot

Rivera
10-13-2010, 12:29 PM
:hide: from all the kobe/la lakers fans


its a good list but it is going to get ugly quick because of TWO names

kobe bryant

and

derrick rose



the only thing i would do is swap kobe wit joe johnson and swap melo wit bosh and that would b my list

lakers4sho
10-13-2010, 12:30 PM
I dont understand why this is difficult to understand... no one is saying that Kobe is over-rated historically...

We are saying that people still see Kobe as he was 5 years ago, and he isnt that player anymore. TODAY he is overrated.

27.0 ppg / 5.4 rpg / 5.0 apg and 29.2 ppg / 6.0 rpg / 5.5 apg

would like to say hello as well

Giaps
10-13-2010, 12:30 PM
Putting Kobe on that list is stupid.

justinnum1
10-13-2010, 12:30 PM
That list is actually pretty good.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:32 PM
I have no problem with this list. As someone mentioned, Haywood isn't necessarily overrated, just overpaid. Nobody claims he is a stud.

Da Knicks
10-13-2010, 12:33 PM
Very solid list!

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:34 PM
27.0 ppg / 5.4 rpg / 5.0 apg and 29.2 ppg / 6.0 rpg / 5.5 apg

would like to say hello as well

and yet more than half of PSD claim he is better than

29.7 ppg / 7.3 rpg / 8.6 apg and 29.1 ppg / 9.3 rpg / 7.6 apg, all while doing it insanely more efficiently...

:up:

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 12:35 PM
I think you can make the same case for Haywood for Gay. Nobody actually thinks he's a superstar, he just gets paid like one. The same could be said for Joe Johnson.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:36 PM
ya, but in paying a guy superstar money... you have said that those are you expectations... whether or not that is fair...

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 12:37 PM
A detroit article, shocking. Calling Rose overrated is one thing, to give reasoning that he can't shoot shows the ignorance of the writer (and everyone else who bashes him without watching him play). Rose isn't just a decent shooter he is a GREAT shooter and anyone who watches him knows it's one of his strengths.

Kobe may be overrated but that's because he's rated so high.

Overrating is such a circumstantial thing. Hometown fans overrate. Other fans underrate. It's the dumbest discussion ever and OP knew what he was doing with this thread because he is a Rose hater.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:37 PM
:hide: from all the kobe/la lakers fans


its a good list but it is going to get ugly quick because of TWO names

kobe bryant

and

derrick rose



the only thing i would do is swap kobe wit joe johnson and swap melo wit bosh and that would b my list

lol at Chris Bosh. He is mentioned in about 2% of stories that have to do with the HEAT and he is overrated. LMAO. At this point, the media is severly underrating chris bosh.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:38 PM
A detroit article, shocking. Calling Rose overrated is one thing, to give reasoning that he can't shoot shows the ignorance of the writer (and everyone else who bashes him without watching him play). Rose isn't just a decent shooter he is a GREAT shooter and anyone who watches him knows it's one of his strengths.

Kobe may be overrated but that's because he's rated so high.

Overrating is such a circumstantial thing. Hometown fans overrate. Other fans underrate. It's the dumbest discussion ever and OP knew what he was doing with this thread because he is a Rose hater.

I did wath rose play in fiba and not only does his shot not go in...it is also very flawed. He puts side spin on the ball...

JordansBulls
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
Derrick Rose will prove people wrong.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
Gasol better than Kobe is laughable.

How is Haywood overrated? Who ever talks about him?

Rudy Gay average? Why, cause he does a bunch of things good, just not one thing great?

Rose is really only overrated by Bulls fans. What was just said about him is what EVERYONE outside of Chicago already says.

Everyone thinks Melo is overrated, until he's "rumored to go to their team.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
...and when he does... he will no longer be overrated ;)

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:39 PM
A detroit article, shocking. Calling Rose overrated is one thing, to give reasoning that he can't shoot shows the ignorance of the writer (and everyone else who bashes him without watching him play). Rose isn't just a decent shooter he is a GREAT shooter and anyone who watches him knows it's one of his strengths.

Kobe may be overrated but that's because he's rated so high.

Overrating is such a circumstantial thing. Hometown fans overrate. Other fans underrate. It's the dumbest discussion ever and OP knew what he was doing with this thread because he is a Rose hater.

please show me how I am a Rose hater. Because i don't rate him as highly as some Bulls fans do? Check my post history. You will find a ton of posts of me being very very positive on Rose.
Rose's midrange game has come a long ways. But his three point accuracy is pretty bad, I can only assume that is what the writer means.

Cool007
10-13-2010, 12:40 PM
Really??

Kobe and Rose in there??? Really??? Kobe winning 5 championships and arguably the best player in the NBA is overrated??? Overrated by who??? They are perfectly rated.

Kobe is a superstar right now and has been for quite a while. He is THE BEST player on the championship team that just won back to back - and he is overrated???

Now, onto Rose. Rose just became an all-star in his 2nd year and has been improving every month/year but he is overrated??? How so??? and who said he is a superstar??? Don't let 1 or 2 fans change things in your brain while 100s of the other fans think otherwise. Rose is an All-star right now and he is only getting better.

Yes, he has some flaws and he is already making strides. He couldn't shoot at all when he came into the league and he improved his Mid-Range shooting so well that he became one of the best already in just 1 year.

This year, he is already looking pretty darn good defensively (look at who he guarded so far in the 4 games - Jennings (0-5 fg), Kidd/whoever else, Wall (his worst preseason game), Calderon/Jack yesterday and see how they played/did vs Rose and vs other teams. That will tell you how good Rose has become defensively.

He has worked on his 3pt shooting as well which will come in time and he has already improved in getting to the line so far (6fta in preseason).

So how are they overrated again???

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:40 PM
some of you newbies need to go through some of the veterans post history before you make hater claims. Just because I was hard on a ranking given to Rose yesterday doesn't mean I haven't stuck up for him in the past.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:41 PM
for everyone slamming the Kobe pick, please remember, nobody would EVER question his overall career, and historical value. But simply put, he is not in the conversation for best individual player anymore.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 12:41 PM
Where's Bynum, Bosh, STAT, KG, hell, even Dirk.

Weezy
10-13-2010, 12:42 PM
I dont think Kobe should be on that list.....he still has a very high impact in the game regardless of his age.

Giaps
10-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Kobe is on this list simply because he isn't as Godly as he used to be... he is still the best player on his team and he just won 2 championships in a row with 3 finals appearances.

mavwar53
10-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Kobe on that list no way, aint gonna lie, I hate the guy cause he wins. Overrated maybe, but #1 or #2 overrated guard I have a problem with. When you win championships how are you so overrated. Tony Parker, Monta Ellis, Chris Paul even would be on my list ahead of Kobe.

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 12:44 PM
please show me how I am a Rose hater. Because i don't rate him as highly as some Bulls fans do? Check my post history. You will find a ton of posts of me being very very positive on Rose.
Rose's midrange game has come a long ways. But his three point accuracy is pretty bad, I can only assume that is what the writer means.

You thought this was a good thread to start? A productive discussion would follow? Give me a break. How do you have 14,000 posts and think this was a good idea?

Rivera
10-13-2010, 12:45 PM
lol at Chris Bosh. He is mentioned in about 2% of stories that have to do with the HEAT and he is overrated. LMAO. At this point, the media is severly underrating chris bosh.

i just dont think chris bosh is as good as he thinks he is

and if u watch tv ESPN says all the time that the Heat have 3 of the top 10 players in the NBA which they dont they have 2

i just think hes overrated

and amare is better than bosh

and thats my opinion n im stickin to it

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:45 PM
^^apparently hawkeye thinks more of you, then you do of yourself...

^well have fun with the opinion. lets see how long it holds up.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:47 PM
Kobe on that list no way, aint gonna lie, I hate the guy cause he wins. Overrated maybe, but #1 or #2 overrated guard I have a problem with. When you win championships how are you so overrated. Tony Parker, Monta Ellis, Chris Paul even would be on my list ahead of Kobe.

Chris Paul?????????????????????????????????????????

mavwar53
10-13-2010, 12:47 PM
Really??

Kobe and Rose in there??? Really??? Kobe winning 5 championships and arguably the best player in the NBA is overrated??? Overrated by who??? They are perfectly rated.

Kobe is a superstar right now and has been for quite a while. He is THE BEST player on the championship team that just won back to back - and he is overrated???

Now, onto Rose. Rose just became an all-star in his 2nd year and has been improving every month/year but he is overrated??? How so??? and who said he is a superstar??? Don't let 1 or 2 fans change things in your brain while 100s of the other fans think otherwise. Rose is an All-star right now and he is only getting better.

Yes, he has some flaws and he is already making strides. He couldn't shoot at all when he came into the league and he improved his Mid-Range shooting so well that he became one of the best already in just 1 year.

This year, he is already looking pretty darn good defensively (look at who he guarded so far in the 4 games - Jennings (0-5 fg), Kidd/whoever else, Wall (his worst preseason game), Calderon/Jack yesterday and see how they played/did vs Rose and vs other teams. That will tell you how good Rose has become defensively.

He has worked on his 3pt shooting as well which will come in time and he has already improved in getting to the line so far (6fta in preseason).

So how are they overrated again???

Lets see how is rose overrated, hmmm.....

I'd say about half the posters I see in this forum think rose is a top 10 player while he is nowhere above 25 maybe even 30, the guy is talked about on this forum like he's the new Jordan but hasn't done anything really. He's a good player yes but great no and thats what most people think

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:47 PM
You thought this was a good thread to start? A productive discussion would follow? Give me a break. How do you have 14,000 posts and think this was a good idea?

I was hoping for some maturity on the subject. Try doing that here

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 12:48 PM
omgz! Kobe bryant is sooooooooooooooo overratedz!!!! he sux

bahama0811
10-13-2010, 12:48 PM
I think the list is decent. I'm not sure that I would put Kobe on the list but its decent.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:49 PM
omgz! Kobe bryant is sooooooooooooooo overratedz!!!! he sux

haha, total scrub....
Obviously nobody would go that far. Kobe at 50 will be better than most the universe

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:50 PM
omgz! Kobe bryant is sooooooooooooooo overratedz!!!! he sux

ya, thats what we are saying... :rolleyes:

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 12:51 PM
I was hoping for some maturity on the subject. Try doing that here

I'll go start a thread about how terrible I think the Timberwolves are and I'll expect everyone to discuss in a mature fashion and be productive.

Have you been in the NBA forum before?

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 12:51 PM
haha, total scrub....
Obviously nobody would go that far. Kobe at 50 will be better than most the universe

:laugh2:

effen5
10-13-2010, 12:52 PM
I was hoping for some maturity on the subject. Try doing that here

Maturity? NBA Forum? :facepalm:

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I honestly do not care what Dwyer or any person here on PSD thinks about Kobe. If you want to think he is overated, then all the power to you. I respect your opinion. Time and time again Kobe has seen many challenges and has overcome them. Its time for Kobe prove it again on the floor this season and prove his doubters wrong.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I'll go start a thread about how terrible I think the Timberwolves are and I'll expect everyone to discuss in a mature fashion and be productive.

Have you been in the NBA forum before?

if it has a link from a major sportswriter, go for it. And as I have always done, I will debate with rationality and maturity on the subject.
:)

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:54 PM
Well if you conceed that you cannot be mature while posting...then dont post...

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 12:55 PM
I honestly do not care what Dwyer or any person here on PSD thinks about Kobe. If you want to think he is overated, then all the power to you. I respect your opinion. Time and time again Kobe has seen many challenges and has overcome them. Its time for Kobe prove it again on the floor this season and prove his doubters wrong.

well put

0nekhmer
10-13-2010, 12:56 PM
and yet more than half of PSD claim he is better than

29.7 ppg / 7.3 rpg / 8.6 apg and 29.1 ppg / 9.3 rpg / 7.6 apg, all while doing it insanely more efficiently...

:up:

nobody's comparing here, just saying he's not ovverated

effen5
10-13-2010, 12:56 PM
Well if you conceed that you cannot be mature while posting...then dont post...

So that should be half the Miami fans including the one in my sig.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:57 PM
but it is through these comparisons that people overrate a guy.

It is saying that in the face of all the stats, Kobe is better bc he is Kobe...

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 12:57 PM
Well if you conceed that you cannot be mature while posting...then dont post...

Reread my posts, there is nothing immature or irrational about them. Candidness maybe.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 12:59 PM
So that should be half the Miami fans including the one in my sig.

That may be true... and if it is... those posters will be banned...

we strive for quality in here...any poster that cannot post with substance and tact (regardless of their fan base) probably won't last very long on this site.

but I am not sure why you feel the need to bait HEAT fans when ALL fanbases have their own immature posters... it is those kinds of comments that demonstrate the lack of tact I referred to above.

Heater4life
10-13-2010, 01:01 PM
I think in order for any of you to post against the writters opinion you have to understand what he means by saying "over-rated". He is not stating those players are not very talented, he not stating that there not accomplished winners, or that they dont have the potential nor skill set to be good players. He is merely stating, as compared to other players and their skill sets, these players are over-valued in reputation.

i.e Kobe bryant at this point in his career IS NOT as productive as D-wade and Bron, yet he is seen as being so by the general public, thus hes overrated.

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 01:07 PM
I think in order for any of you to post against the writters opinion you have to understand what he means by saying "over-rated". He is not stating those players are not very talented, he not stating that there not accomplished winners, or that they dont how the potential nor skill set to be good players. He is merely stating, as compared to other players and their skill sets, these players are over-valued in reputation.

i.e Kobe bryant at this point in his career IS NOT as productive as D-wade and Bron, yet he is seen as being so by the general public, thus hes overrated.

Right but what is the point in discussing a topic such as overrated/underrated? One person may underrate someone who they think is overrated while the person on the otherside overrates that same player and argues how they are underrated. Underrating/overrating depends completely on the individual doing the rating. So who is this writer claiming is overrating Kobe? Everyone? Or should he say Kobe is overrated to everyone except those who actually rate him exactly the right way or underrate him? It's just a pointless topic and all it does (in EVERY forum - music, sports, workout, poker) is end up with people bashing one another because again hometown fans overrate their players and non-hometown fans underrate other players. Who is to say one is off base and the other is right? It's much better to discuss future productivity.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 01:11 PM
well that is the nature of forums... everything in life generates different opinions/persepctives... The goal is to share those opinions respectfully

NYKNYGNYY
10-13-2010, 01:13 PM
idk about carmello, gay and rose i mean i guess its a matter of opinion

but kobes gettting kinda old still one of the greatest players of all time but hes gettin up there not in his prime anymore even though he is still a top player.

all the lakers fans are jumping down ppls throats, u gotta understand thats the only thing they have in la is kobe, oakland raiders sheeesh, dodgers ouch,

Basketash
10-13-2010, 01:13 PM
Decent list, just Kobe doesn't really fit

pebloemer
10-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Haywood isn't overrated...just overpaid

i don't think anybody wants to compare him to the top centers in the league (or at least rational people wouldn't)
Lol at Kobe being overrated

Who here thinks the Lakers win the title without Kobe and with Gasol being the go-to guy? Anyone? Kobe being overrated is like saying MJ was overrated.....sure they aren't perfect, but they do seem to win a lot

Wow, that is terrible logic. It only works if you believe the Lakers win the title without Gasol and with Kobe still being the go to guy. Prior to Gasol's arrival proved that Kobe couldn't.

And Kobe is not MJ.

DaBUU
10-13-2010, 01:21 PM
Derrick Rose will prove people wrong.

JB, Derrick is currently proving everyone wrong, either no one is paying attention or its just the usual hater tinted glasses they're watching him with. So far this preseason he has, without doubt, taken that next step. I'm not even arguing anymore, NBA forum is poop.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 01:23 PM
hope you are right DaBUU, but surely you dont expect that the average NBA fan has been watching Bulls preseason basketball. He will proove people wrong if he does it this year when people are watching. FWIW, it would be nice for him to elevate his game, could lead to some fun rivalries...

Hellcrooner
10-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Well there were a very very very small number of persons that thought Pau should ahve gotten Mvp of the finals when he locked up dwight.

Then this year there were SOME more ( still a small ) gropup tough that thought Pau shoudl ahve been the mvp of the finals this eyar, including some pros like Mike Dunleavy.

BUT one thing is disagreeing with what the level of Imprtance to lakers succes does Gasol have and another COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and UNFAIR thing is to state Kobe is overated, Look, i have no love lost with the guy but that is DISRESPECTFUL.

DoJoTheSlasher
10-13-2010, 01:36 PM
In what world is Gasol better than Kobe? In what world has Brendan Haywood even been rated as a top center?

Big Question:

In what world does Kelly Dwyer have intelligence?

Kobe > LeBron and it's not outrageous. A guy who is hyped as better than MJ that hasn't won a single Finals game in 7-8 years is not better than Kobe freakin Bryant.

I actually do agree on the Melo part though.

DoJoTheSlasher
10-13-2010, 01:39 PM
I think in order for any of you to post against the writters opinion you have to understand what he means by saying "over-rated". He is not stating those players are not very talented, he not stating that there not accomplished winners, or that they dont have the potential nor skill set to be good players. He is merely stating, as compared to other players and their skill sets, these players are over-valued in reputation.

i.e Kobe bryant at this point in his career IS NOT as productive as D-wade and Bron, yet he is seen as being so by the general public, thus hes overrated.

Kobe vs the Suns this past year, making all of those clutch impossible shots? Wade or Bron could never do that. Instead they would each get 30 FT from the refs.

Kobe is better than Wade and Bron. At least Bron has an argument..... but Wade???

29$JerZ
10-13-2010, 01:42 PM
Haywood isn't overrated, Dallas needed a C so they overpaid for one.

Solid list nonetheless

I would replace Haywood with Noah however
Bynum is just an injury prone C as is Oden, but you know they contribuite well when healthy so I wouldn't say they are overrated.

justinnum1
10-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Kobe vs the Suns this past year, making all of those clutch impossible shots? Wade or Bron could never do that. Instead they would each get 30 FT from the refs.

Kobe is better than Wade and Bron. At least Bron has an argument..... but Wade???

:facepalm: Saying wade can't make clutch shots:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: And why hate on Lebron and Wade?

DaBUU
10-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Haywood isn't overrated, Dallas needed a C so they overpaid for one.

Solid list nonetheless

I would replace Haywood with Noah however

Noah was two assists shy of a triple double last night. I know its preseason, but he was showing what hes capable of. Not to mention he lead the break several times, making the offense that much better, which you cant quantify. When your 7 ft center initiates the break like Jo does, in addition to everything else he does, there is no way you can call him overated.

Double_R
10-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Well there were a very very very small number of persons that thought Pau should ahve gotten Mvp of the finals when he locked up dwight.

Then this year there were SOME more ( still a small ) gropup tough that thought Pau shoudl ahve been the mvp of the finals this eyar, including some pros like Mike Dunleavy.

BUT one thing is disagreeing with what the level of Imprtance to lakers succes does Gasol have and another COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and UNFAIR thing is to state Kobe is overated, Look, i have no love lost with the guy but that is DISRESPECTFUL.

Ha, Pau, Odom, and Bynum all guarded Dwight and not one did it by themselves. Kendricks Perkins is the only guy that has guarded Dwight one on one for an extended period of a game.

alencp3
10-13-2010, 01:56 PM
very solid

northsider
10-13-2010, 01:57 PM
It's funny the more and more I read PSD NBA forums the more I realize there is actually a waaayyy bigger group of Rose/Kobe Haters then there are overraters. In all honesty you guys keep saying people are calling Rose a superstar and the next MJ when I can say I have never seen a post coming close to calling him the best player in the NBA aside from a couple idiots whose have like 1-5 posts in here.

I keep seeing this Rose overrated thing brought up when the only thing I see now is just guys defending him cause he gets bashed way more then he does get hyped. Every thread now turns into some moron mentioning uh oh just wait for the Bulls fans to come in here and talk about Rose when those threads are either started by a fan from another team or have nothing to do with Rose at all.

Chicagofaithful
10-13-2010, 01:59 PM
You lost me at Kobe bryant. I'm sorry but you have to be ******** to think Kobe bryant is overrated. And no one overrates Brendan Haywood and Rudy Gay. The only two actual arguments are Rose and Melo, and to be honest even they are not overrated if you ask me. In fact if you break it down, what he says is really only partially true and thus furthers his ignorance and inability to see thru his own bias. Rose actually led the NBA in mid range fg% last year a fact he'd know if he did his research, defense sure hes not a great defender but anyone could tell you that and everyone agrees with it which makes his "overrated" point moot. And Melo, while I agree can be put on a pedastool a little out of reach for him even, is still top talent, and its not like ppl think he's better than Kobe, Wade, Bron... so theres no reason so say he's "overrated" overall this list is not only misinformed, but not backed by substantial evidence and quite clearly was written by someone looking for a "shock" factor with Kobe... this list is a waste of time

Switch
10-13-2010, 02:03 PM
In what world is Gasol better than Kobe? In what world has Brendan Haywood even been rated as a top center?

Big Question:

In what world does Kelly Dwyer have intelligence?

Kobe > LeBron and it's not outrageous. A guy who is hyped as better than MJ that hasn't won a single Finals game in 7-8 years is not better than Kobe freakin Bryant.

I actually do agree on the Melo part though.

Your pretty much summed it up. Kelly Dwyer has no idea what he's talking about.

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 02:07 PM
Also, does anybody recognize this website? Who in the hell is "Kevin Sawyer?" This site looks like a Detriot Pistons website by its title "Detroit Bad Boys -
A Detroit Pistons community since 2005"

:laugh2:

I could understand if it came from espn, nba.com, cbs, foxsports or one of those legit sites but the fact it came from a Detroit pistons website tells it all.

stripersniper77
10-13-2010, 02:11 PM
I can honestly say that Kobe is the most overrated player in the NBA at this point of his career. I say that because i Think he is the 4th or 5th best player in the NBA, but everyone in the media says its not even close and that kobe is the best no contest. And all people wanna bring up are his rings, you the ones he won with a team that had other players on it. Not to mention his first 3 rings came with shaq as the finals mvp and his last two came with gasol who is a top 3 big man in the league. So comparing Kobe to others is unfair in most regards because when it comes to rings its really helpful to have had the best player in the NBA on your team for 3 and having a great supporting cast with one of the best pf for the other 2 when your supposedly the best player in the league.

Mplsman
10-13-2010, 02:17 PM
A nice list.

Gators123
10-13-2010, 02:20 PM
Also, does anybody recognize this website? Who in the hell is "Kevin Sawyer?" This site looks like a Detriot Pistons website by its title "Detroit Bad Boys -
A Detroit Pistons community since 2005"

:laugh2:

I could understand if it came from espn, nba.com, cbs, foxsports or one of those legit sites but the fact it came from a Detroit pistons website tells it all.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/All-Stars-Rose-Kobe-head-one-writer-s-All-Overr?urn=nba-276373#remaining-content

LeBitteNoir
10-13-2010, 02:20 PM
Very good list. And a very overrated Derrick Rose. The guy is not elite yet. Hell, he's not even a B-level "star" player yet (he's not even on Brandon Roy's level).

Kobe is not the same Kobe, but he's still good, though. I don't think he's overrated.

J4KOP99
10-13-2010, 02:23 PM
I can understand the argument that Kobe may be overrated at this point. Although he is still top 5 in the game, he isn't number 1 anymore. I still think however, that if the nba cleared every roster and had a draft, for one season, that Kobe would be the first or second person picked. He is older now, not as valuable as LeBron, Wade, Durant, Paul, Dwight.... but he is still great.


The only problem I have with this article is the Gasol vs. Kobe argument. That is ridiculous. It is the same as saying that Wes Welker is better or more important than Randy Moss. Watch what happens to Welker now that Moss is gone. Moss draws double teams and forces the defense to play a certain way. Same thing with Kobe. The opposing defenses focus on Kobe no matter what, thus giving Pau 1 v 1 coverage. Gasol is a great player... add that with that the fact that most teams can't double-team him because of Kobe and you get a dominant player. Take Kobe away and Gasol is still good but not nearly as efficient.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 02:26 PM
I can understand the argument that Kobe may be overrated at this point. Although he is still top 5 in the game, he isn't number 1 anymore. I still think however, that if the nba cleared every roster and had a draft, for one season, that Kobe would be the first or second person picked. He is older now, not as valuable as LeBron, Wade, Durant, Paul, Dwight.... but he is still great.


The only problem I have with this article is the Gasol vs. Kobe argument. That is ridiculous. It is the same as saying that Wes Welker is better or more important than Randy Moss. Watch what happens to Welker now that Moss is gone. Moss draws double teams and forces the defense to play a certain way. Same thing with Kobe. The opposing defenses focus on Kobe no matter what, thus giving Pau 1 v 1 coverage. Gasol is a great player... add that with that the fact that most teams can't double-team him because of Kobe and you get a dominant player. Take Kobe away and Gasol is still good but not nearly as efficient.

While Gasol led the Lakers in win shares, both in the regular season and playoffs, I would be hard pressed to say he was the better player of the two. It just doesn't sound right.

northsider
10-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Very good list. And a very overrated Derrick Rose. The guy is not elite yet. Hell, he's not even a B-level "star" player yet (he's not even on Brandon Roy's level).

Kobe is not the same Kobe, but he's still good, though. I don't think he's overrated.

What I don't understand is when a stupid bulls fan says something regarding Rose and him being good he gets called out by a whole bunch of people but, when someone posts something like this, it is let to ride when it is a obvious bait and a case of someone who is just being a dick.

I think it makes all the people who bash him look just as dumb as the people who overrate him.

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 02:30 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/All-Stars-Rose-Kobe-head-one-writer-s-All-Overr?urn=nba-276373#remaining-content


OKay much better. More of a legit site. I just saw the OP's link and it was some random site I've never seen before. Thanks

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 02:33 PM
What I don't understand is when a stupid bulls fan says something regarding Rose and him being good he gets called out by a whole bunch of people but, when someone posts something like this, it is let to ride when it is a obvious bait and a case of someone who is just being a dick.

I think it makes all the people who bash him look just as dumb as the people who overrate him.

:)

Da Knicks
10-13-2010, 02:36 PM
The reasons i liked the list are

1. Kobe has not being the top player in the league for about 4 years now and people keep trying to put him at number 1.--it helps when you play with a group of all-stars to have the rings for the dumb arguement people want to make. Kobe is one of the best players still today at his age which makes him great but when people say he is the number 1 player, well that makes him overrated.
2. Melo only plays when he wants to defense that is and denver is asking a kings ransom for him making him overrated.
3. Rose - have to see him this year and see how his 3 point range and defense have improved-undecided.
4. Haywood for the money being paid-overrated by his team.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 02:36 PM
Wow people overreact to the word "overrated" that word is really just an opinion word. I could care less who thinks my favorite player is overrated because chances are every fan in here has seen Rose trash their team at least once. Coaches respect him enough to vote him into the all-star game and that's all that really matters.

If you simple fans don't already know derrick Rose has a very good midrange jump shot you must be under a rock so their goes your main argument.

This thread was dug up and posted to create controversy if you ask me. No offense to the OP but this was a bad move posting an article like this. the two main players is spot on to create negative responses. The article says Rose is continuously brought up in MVP discussions? That's new to me.

northsider
10-13-2010, 02:38 PM
:)

If your indicating I overrate him your sorely mistaken. I think Rose is a good player that isn't a top 5 PG by no means cause he is doesn't really fit the persona of a PG. He is just a good fit for the Bulls cause he offers allot of things we have lacked for a while in a guy who is explosive in the lane and can take over a game on a nightly basis with some consistency(this being the key word)

i.got.the.nutz
10-13-2010, 02:42 PM
People who say Gasol is better/more important/ to the Lakers simply do not watch them play every game, PERIOD. And saying Kobe is overrated is absurd. The only thing more absurd is people actually giving this list any credibility.

Super.
10-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Kobe - People still claim him to be the #1 player. Whilst he is still top 5, I simply can not put him at #1. Gasol > Kobe? Pass the Pipe! I'm NOT hating on Kobe. It's just simply he isn't the #1, which people still rank him at. That's why he's overrated.

Rose - Chicago fans call him the 2nd coming of MJ. Well, he certainly hasn't played the part so far. Sure, sure he'll get better, of course. But he's honestly not even close to the level that some people *cough Chicago Fans *cough put him on. He does have a HUGE ceiling though and has the potential to be a top 5 player in the future.

Hellcrooner
10-13-2010, 02:47 PM
Imo the list shoudl be.


Bradon Jennings. people ttreat him as if he is ogign to be some amazing player when his court decisions are questionable his shoot not very good yet and his efficiency bellow average, he will put up good nubmber , flashy numbers and fool people into thinking he i something, but he will be a Marbudy or Francis.
He has time to change, mature and turn it around tough.

Joe Johnson, Max contract? its a frigging Joke his ideal position would be THIRD wheel or second at best in a contender not franchise Guy.

Rudy Gay: he ony dfenedns every now and then when he is feeling like it, NEVZER looks for the open man, he instad teakes a birck no matte how many people is covering him and how bad his shooting position is.

Dirk : He is a Great SMALL FORWARD with his killing shting and 3pointers and skill, BUT he has no Back to the basket gam, no defnese, does not bang and he is supposed to be a POWER forward and thats what POWR FORWARDS should do.

Howard: he has time to learn , and if he learns what he needs to learn he can become the BEST player of the league but for the moment he is just an AMAZING body with No jumper, no post moves and very little skill very far for what a supppsoed top 5 p layers should be., i hope he develops his game and beocomes a worhty heir to shaq but if he goes on focusing in athetlicism and not fundamentals he is at risk of being worn out/ a joke before he hits 30, not the first time somehting like that happens

LeBitteNoir
10-13-2010, 02:47 PM
Rose is not there yet. He has the makings of a very good player, perhaps as good as Wade one day. But he's not there yet. You guys thinking he's a superstar are three or four years ahead of reality. And even when he develops his shooting and becomes a star point guard, he'll still be overshadowed by Durant.

Bottom line, Bulls fans rush into crowning their players "stars" when in reality they're just "very good." Like with the stock market, when something is overvalued, there is an eventual pushback that brings the stock price down to its correct value. This is what's happening to Rose. And rightfully so.

kArSoN RyDaH
10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
While Gasol led the Lakers in win shares, both in the regular season and playoffs, I would be hard pressed to say he was the better player of the two. It just doesn't sound right.
just when i thought this thread was going downhill i cannot say ive seen a better statement made so far. lol. people really have to watch laker games to completely understand Pau and Kobe. Kobes stats are skewed because of the constant bailing out his team looks for him to do. obviously he is not always bailing them out but a good percent of the time he is the one taking the shots when the 24 is expiring. Gasols stats are empty. yes he has good nights and im not bashing Gasol in any way shape or form but he doesnt do anything defensively. hes the reason our series went to 6 games with OKC. he wasnt defending the paint for SHI*!!! and even against boston game 5 that is why Kobe went off in the 3rd quarter for 19 points because no one on the team, including Gasol, would step up. people bring up efficiency as the main argument against Kobe but if he wouldnt always have Pau and other guards on the team looking to bail them out when the shot clock is at 6 seconds then he would be much more efficient. and this happens more often than not.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
Kobe - People still claim him to be the #1 player. Whilst he is still top 5, I simply can not put him at #1. Gasol > Kobe? Pass the Pipe! I'm NOT hating on Kobe. It's just simply he isn't the #1, which people still rank him at. That's why he's overrated.

Rose - Chicago fans call him the 2nd coming of MJ. Well, he certainly hasn't played the part so far. Sure, sure he'll get better, of course. But he's honestly not even close to the level that some people *cough Chicago Fans *cough put him on. He does have a HUGE ceiling though and has the potential to be a top 5 player in the future.

Oh we do? nice job making all of us look like idiots.

Wade>You
10-13-2010, 02:51 PM
I'm surprised Chris Bosh didn't make it there.

I'm also surprised Kobe Bryant made it.

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 02:52 PM
Although Kobe is the least efficient Super Star in NBA history, I still think Joe Johnson is the most overrated SG in the NBA. The rest of the list I agree with.

shep33
10-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Terrible list IMO... Kobe, Rose and Melo? Are you serious? How is Kobe overrated, when he averaged 27 ppg last year with a broken finger... and completely torched Utah and Phoenix in last year's playoffs. Melo isn't overrated either, again, in the playoffs, this guy put up monster numbers the last two years to go along with a solid regular season. Rose was great last year, how is 21 ppg and 6 apg with nobody else on his team that could shoot or score the basketball overrated?

Super.
10-13-2010, 02:55 PM
Oh we do? nice job making all of us look like idiots.

Ha, your a little late to the party if you think me saying will actually have any effect of the amount of chicago fans people think are idiots

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 02:56 PM
G - Derrick Rose

A superstar in the making, an all-star already... But enough about Kevin Durant.


:laugh2:


I was surprised that the Bulls won't trade him and a pick for Melo and Billups. The dude will become a team cancer, just watch. He's the Mini-Iverson, not team oriented at all.

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 02:58 PM
Terrible list IMO... Kobe, Rose and Melo? Are you serious? How is Kobe overrated, when he averaged 27 ppg last year with a broken finger... and completely torched Utah and Phoenix in last year's playoffs. Melo isn't overrated either, again, in the playoffs, this guy put up monster numbers the last two years to go along with a solid regular season. Rose was great last year, how is 21 ppg and 6 apg with nobody else on his team that could shoot or score the basketball overrated?

Both players are not team oriented. They are so inefficent that if Kobe didn't have Gasol and defensive minded teammates, he won't be making it past the 1st round.

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 02:58 PM
Although Kobe is the least efficient Super Star in NBA history, I still think Joe Johnson is the most overrated SG in the NBA. The rest of the list I agree with.

but he still has 5 rings:)

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 02:59 PM
Wow people overreact to the word "overrated" that word is really just an opinion word. I could care less who thinks my favorite player is overrated because chances are every fan in here has seen Rose trash their team at least once. Coaches respect him enough to vote him into the all-star game and that's all that really matters.

If you simple fans don't already know derrick Rose has a very good midrange jump shot you must be under a rock so their goes your main argument.

This thread was dug up and posted to create controversy if you ask me. No offense to the OP but this was a bad move posting an article like this. the two main players is spot on to create negative responses. The article says Rose is continuously brought up in MVP discussions? That's new to me.


couldn't agree more. And my creation of this thread was not to start a war. I don't understand how fans can't set aside their baises and have a talk about all subjects. The sensitivity level has reached new heights this summer. Part of that is due to so much transition in rosters, the FIBA games, and there just not being enough to talk about, so the same subjects get repeated like an old record.
I don't think some of the article has any accuracy in it. Gasol the reason the Lakers won? Rose a terrible jump shooter (when his midrange is nearing elite), or him being mentioned as an MVP candidate? I haven't seen that.

Simply put, PSD is a board of discussion. There should not be anything off limits, just because a few posters are so full of pride for men they don't even know, they are blinded with their homer goggles.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 02:59 PM
Although Kobe is the least efficient Super Star in NBA history, I still think Joe Johnson is the most overrated SG in the NBA. The rest of the list I agree with.

how on earth can you validate this?

Wade>You
10-13-2010, 03:02 PM
Maybe prime Iverson is ahead of Kobe, but there's probably not another superstar as inefficient as Kobe.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow people overreact to the word "overrated" that word is really just an opinion word. I could care less who thinks my favorite player is overrated because chances are every fan in here has seen Rose trash their team at least once. Coaches respect him enough to vote him into the all-star game and that's all that really matters.

If you simple fans don't already know derrick Rose has a very good midrange jump shot you must be under a rock so their goes your main argument.

This thread was dug up and posted to create controversy if you ask me. No offense to the OP but this was a bad move posting an article like this. the two main players is spot on to create negative responses. The article says Rose is continuously brought up in MVP discussions? That's new to me.

You think Hawk is a "controversy creator"? Wow. He's one of the most well liked posters on PSD.

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 03:03 PM
how on earth can you validate this?

don't ever bother mah man! You are dealing with the same guy who also said that the Lakers will have a hard time making the playoffs.

Gators123
10-13-2010, 03:04 PM
don't ever bother mah man! You are dealing with the same guy who also said that the Lakers will have a hard time making the playoffs.

:laugh2:

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:04 PM
how on earth can you validate this?

When has Kobe ever been efficient? Without Phil, he wont have a ring.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
Maybe prime Iverson is ahead of Kobe, but there's probably not another superstar as inefficient as Kobe.

what is your list of superstars, particularly guards, that you think are more efficient than Kobe, excluding the obvious in MJ?

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
For the record, I can understand the argument for Kobe. Regardless of if the guy is the best player in the world (which he isn't), he was still the best player on two championship teams, one of the five best players in the world and maybe the second best shooting guard in the history of the NBA.

However, I think Rose and Melo are both extremely overrated. Melo is a glorified jump shooter, minus the part where he actually makes baskets, whie Rose is a defensive liability and not nearly the distributor that other point guards (Rondo, Paul, DWill, Nash) are. Neither are top 10 in my mind, and both are seriously overrated players.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:06 PM
When has Kobe ever been efficient? Without Phil, he wont have a ring.

you could make that claim for the GOAT as well man. Again, I would love for you to validate this by showing me who you are attempting to put him in context with. His PER and offensive ratings over his peak years were absolutely efficient

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:06 PM
don't ever bother mah man! You are dealing with the same guy who also said that the Lakers will have a hard time making the playoffs.

absolutely not. Making a claim like that needs backup

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:08 PM
you could make that claim for the GOAT as well man. Again, I would love for you to validate this by showing me who you are attempting to put him in context with. His PER and offensive ratings over his peak years were absolutely efficient

Well you asked for it......Kobe is the only Super Star ever that have never shot above .470 in a single season, only Super Star ever to average below .450 in his play-offs career and the only super star to ever shoot 6/24 in a finals game 7.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 03:09 PM
Ha, your a little late to the party if you think me saying will actually have any effect of the amount of chicago fans people think are idiots

Yeah because your not to late in joining the party of grouping a whole fan base on what you heard from a couple of fans if that. Nobody in their right mind thinks he's the second coming of MJ. And for you to link a whole fan base to that idiotic opinion makes you look...."cough" really smart.

Dol-Fan
10-13-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not a Laker fan in the least, but to say Kobe Bryant is overrated is quite laughable.

Can't say I disagree much with the rest of it though, although I don't know if Carmelo is as overrated as he used to be.

northsider
10-13-2010, 03:09 PM
I think most of it stems from the fact that I do like the NBA and this year I am pretty excited to watch it with all the power teams. I just hate that every thread is just hatred or stupid fighting I like arguments but, a good amount of them are just ridiculous. I mean you can go in a thread that is like Dirk gets a new puppy and the 5th post is "damn Rose is overrated" or the Heat are homos.

I do agree though the word overrated can be used and abused and also mistaken out of context I tend to do that as well as allot of other posters.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:10 PM
Well you asked for it......Kobe is the only Super Star ever that have never shot above .470 in a single season, only Super Star ever to average below .450 in his play-offs career and the only super star to ever shoot 6/24 in a finals game 7.

so you are bringing up basic field goal percentage? Cmon, you can do better than that I hope. otherwise you shouldn't make such ridiculous claims

hugepatsfan
10-13-2010, 03:10 PM
When someone says that Pau>Kobe, I refuse to acknowledge them as a serious source for discussing Kobe at all. At that point it's obvious they have bias against him.

Antbanks21
10-13-2010, 03:11 PM
Both players are not team oriented. They are so inefficent that if Kobe didn't have Gasol and defensive minded teammates, he won't be making it past the 1st round.

hmm i wonder how all the other champions in NBA history would fare without their sidekick and teammates :rolleyes:

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:12 PM
so you are bringing up basic field goal percentage? Cmon, you can do better than that I hope. otherwise you shouldn't make such ridiculous claims

Well I'm saying no other Super Star have the luxury of been less efficent than his fellow teammates and still win a game. Give Gasol/Shaq and Phil some credit, not Kobe.

basketfan4life
10-13-2010, 03:12 PM
İf Kobe had shot the ball well in game 7 againsy celtics kelly guy wouldn't have written all these c.rap...i mean come on people,the guy is back2back finals mvp, played with broken finger,and before game 7, great deal of psd people were telling he is the best player in the game. This guy is totatly a kobe hater...first he started with wade is better because all the mileage of kobe, now this...

i mean,really,really, psd nba forum is losing its credibility by giving credit to what this stupid guy writes.

shep33
10-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Both players are not team oriented. They are so inefficent that if Kobe didn't have Gasol and defensive minded teammates, he won't be making it past the 1st round.

How can Kobe not be team oriented when he just won 2 championships in a row? So did Kobe win those championships on his own? Of course not, you have to be team oriented on offense and defense to be a great player, and I believe Kobe is. I find that many people (not everyone here, some bring up great points) critisize Kobe Bryant just because they don't like him, and they base how good he is now off of last seasons stats, where he was injured almost the whole year. If Wade got injured for example, which has happend before and he had a couple years that he struggled due to injury, I would be insane to say "oh Wade sucks, and Wade is done"... no he was injured, and I can't judge how good a player is while he's injured. However, if a player plays through that injury for the entire year, wins a championship, Finals MVP, I have no choice but to respect that.

Moving onto, Rose who had nobody on his team that could score, and still averaged 21 and 6apg. Doesn't make sense to me how he's overrated. Melo in the playoffs last season was the only one who showed up against the Jazz, everybody else played terrible in that series.

$KnicksAndKobe$
10-13-2010, 03:13 PM
People tend to forget that the Lakers were the #1 seed in the west right before they got Gasol.

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Maybe prime Iverson is ahead of Kobe, but there's probably not another superstar as inefficient as Kobe.

He shoots .455 for his career from the floor, .340 from beyond the arc and .838 from the free throw line. He was actually 8th best in shooting percentage from the floor last season for shooting guards and had the second most free throw attempts (behind only Wade).

I loathe the Lakers, but you have to respect Kobe and this "inefficiency" argument is complete ********. There are several super stars in the league I can think of over the past few years who are less efficient or as efficient as Kobe (McGrady, Melo, Vince Carter, Iverson, Pierce, etc.).

Antbanks21
10-13-2010, 03:14 PM
When has Kobe ever been efficient? Without Phil, he wont have a ring.

what about MJ? he didn't win without phil :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:15 PM
I think most of it stems from the fact that I do like the NBA and this year I am pretty excited to watch it with all the power teams. I just hate that every thread is just hatred or stupid fighting I like arguments but, a good amount of them are just ridiculous. I mean you can go in a thread that is like Dirk gets a new puppy and the 5th post is "damn Rose is overrated" or the Heat are homos.

I do agree though the word overrated can be used and abused and also mistaken out of context I tend to do that as well as allot of other posters.

trust me, as a mod, I feel your pain. Do you think we enjoy having to come into a thread that should have stimulating conversation and deleting 30 posts because it turned into a war about two players that weren't even mentioned by the OP?

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Well you asked for it......Kobe is the only Super Star ever that have never shot above .470 in a single season, only Super Star ever to average below .450 in his play-offs career and the only super star to ever shoot 6/24 in a finals game 7.

This is not true. At all. Unless your definition of "superstar" contains only big men and maybe Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. In a recent post, I named several players who have done some of those things you just listed above.

Corey
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
trust me, as a mod, I feel your pain. Do you think we enjoy having to come into a thread that should have stimulating conversation and deleting 30 posts because it turned into a war about two players that weren't even mentioned by the OP?

The joys of the NBA forum and it's inhabitants :laugh2:

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
This is not true. At all. Unless your definition of "superstar" contains only big men and maybe Michael Jordan and Larry Bird. In a recent post, I named several players who have done some of those things you just listed above.

Names pls...

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Well I'm saying no other Super Star have the luxury of been less efficent than his fellow teammates and still win a game. Give Gasol/Shaq and Phil some credit, not Kobe.

you have embarrassed yourself enough, no need for me to chime in here.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
You think Hawk is a "controversy creator"? Wow. He's one of the most well liked posters on PSD.

No it was a bad choice of words. What i really meant was this thread is just the type of thread to start controversy because of the two main players that are mentioned.

Antbanks21
10-13-2010, 03:20 PM
People tend to forget that the Lakers were the #1 seed in the west right before they got Gasol.

:clap: that's right!

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:20 PM
Names pls...

Or you could not be lazy, and read the previous post that was on the last page...

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:23 PM
you have embarrassed yourself enough, no need for me to chime in here.

Talk about embarrassing one's self...I gave you stats, you gave me nothing but your own opinions. You keep saying he's efficient, prove it.

mjt20mik
10-13-2010, 03:25 PM
I really don't see how Kobe is overrated. At his age, he is still putting up impressive numbers, and winning. I really don't think anyone else than Laker fans still think at this time in his career he is the best player in the league. That title is right now between Durant and Lebron. And Bosh should definitely be added to that list.

I would also like to add that I LOL'd so hard when I heard some fan hear call D.Rose a great shooter. That made my day. :)

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:25 PM
He shoots .455 for his career from the floor, .340 from beyond the arc and .838 from the free throw line. He was actually 8th best in shooting percentage from the floor last season for shooting guards and had the second most free throw attempts (behind only Wade).

I loathe the Lakers, but you have to respect Kobe and this "inefficiency" argument is complete ********. There are several super stars in the league I can think of over the past few years who are less efficient or as efficient as Kobe (McGrady, Melo, Vince Carter, Iverson, Pierce, etc.).

bump... Proves "dnewguy's Idiocy.

Pierzynski4Prez
10-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Calling Kobe Bryant overrated is like calling Peyton Manning, Albert Pujols, Doc Halladay over rated. What a moron.

Even Rose, I know its already been said a bit in the previous pages, but come on. Kid was 19 and 20 leading a lottery team to playoff births while making the all-star team not to mention starting on the world championship team. People may be hyping his future a tad too much, but to say he is over rated is stupid.

People get overrated because they put up great stats which everyone sees, but what the people don't see is that those stats don't translate at all into helping their team win. Guys like Monta Ellis, Gay, Zach Randolph (much better this year though), Amare.

shep33
10-13-2010, 03:26 PM
When has Kobe ever been efficient? Without Phil, he wont have a ring.

Based on context, I could say the say that Lebron is overrated just because he puts up numbers but doesn't come up big when his team needs a win. But I'm not going to say that, cause Lebron is a terrific player. If you base your argument on statistics, anybody else can base one on winning and features that go beyond statistics.

I can say Jordan was overrated based on his stats in game 6 vs the Jazz in 1998... shot a poor percentage, or game 6 vs the Sonics... but that is just stupid, because people don't realize the impact of that player just being out on the court has. Jordan didn't need to have great stats to make him the GOAT, but the little things and his presence in the game alone changed everything, and made the Bulls one of the greatest teams of all-time.

If I base logic on stats alone, I can come up with a fair argument that Oscar Robertson or Wilt Chamberlain were the two greatest players of all-time. So lists like this guy made, are completely based on his own personal opinions of those players. He doesn't mention intangables, doesn't dwell deep into stats, so I can't take him seriously at all.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:27 PM
Talk about embarrassing one's self...I gave you stats, you gave me nothing but your own opinions. You keep saying he's efficient, prove it.

using basic field goal percentage tells us all we need to know dude. Honestly, you have no frame of reference on this subject. To sit there and say a top 10 player of all time whose peak has covered over a decade is inefficient, requires me to do nothing to make you look foolish.
I thought I was hard on Kobe.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Only some would consider Kobe to be "overrated". The consensus seems to be that he's right behind LeBron and more or less tied with Wade. That's not "overrating" a dude who just put up 29 PPG/6 APG/6 RPG/1.5 SPG on 57% TS over 23 playoff games while playing with a broken finger and a knee that required surgery.

Numbers after having knee drained (19 games): 31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG on 58% TS

Last 3 series:

33 PPG/6 RPG/ 5 APG on 60% TS! vs Jazz
34 PPG/9 RPG/ 7 APG on 60% TS vs Suns
29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG on 53% TS vs Celtics

:rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:29 PM
please never confuse basic fg% with efficiency. It makes the poster appear to have no more than a trivial understanding of efficiency. Like Marv Albert ability

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:29 PM
Only some would consider Kobe to be "overrated". The consensus seems to be that he's right behind LeBron and more or less tied with Wade. That's not "overrating" a dude who just put up 29 PPG/6 APG/6 RPG/1.5 SPG on 57% TS over 23 playoff games while playing with a broken finger and a knee that required surgery.

Numbers after having knee drained (19 games): 31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG on 58% TS

Last 3 series:

33 PPG/6 RPG/ 5 APG on 60% TS! vs Jazz
34 PPG/9 RPG/ 7 APG on 60% TS vs Suns
29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG on 53% TS vs Celtics

:rolleyes:

according to a poster or two here, that is considered inefficient.
:speechless:

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:33 PM
He shoots .455 for his career from the floor, .340 from beyond the arc and .838 from the free throw line. He was actually 8th best in shooting percentage from the floor last season for shooting guards and had the second most free throw attempts (behind only Wade).

I loathe the Lakers, but you have to respect Kobe and this "inefficiency" argument is complete ********. There are several super stars in the league I can think of over the past few years who are less efficient or as efficient as Kobe (McGrady, Melo, Vince Carter, Iverson, Pierce, etc.).

I wont call Pierce a Super Star, and BTW he shot over .470 in multiple seasons. Melo is just as Overrated as Kobe and btw he also shot better than .470 3 out of his 7 seasons. Vince Carter is a super star dunker, not a Super Star player and btw his stats are similar to Kobe's without a championship and same goes for Mcgrady...all 3 of them shoot too much which is where they get their bloated ppg from. Iverson is not a team player just like Kobe, but all those people you named are at Kobe's level with no ring. Which tells you other factors helped Kobe beyond his inefficiency.

Stunner
10-13-2010, 03:33 PM
SMH i never once seen anybody say Rose is a superstar he is a all-star player. He must work on his 3 ball and defense. And the next MJ? Who the **** said that!

shep33
10-13-2010, 03:33 PM
Well you asked for it......Kobe is the only Super Star ever that have never shot above .470 in a single season, only Super Star ever to average below .450 in his play-offs career and the only super star to ever shoot 6/24 in a finals game 7.

Jordan shot 5/19 in a the close-out game vs the Sonics. 26.3%... Not very good shooting wise, so Michael Jordan is inefficient.

Jordan only shot 42.9% in game 6 vs the Jazz and had 1 rebound and 1 assist, so Michael Jordan is inefficient

Jordan shot 34.6% in game 5 vs the Jazz... so Michael Jordan is inefficient.

You can't base arguments directly on stats, they are completely misleading... especially fg%.

Stunner
10-13-2010, 03:34 PM
:laugh2:


I was surprised that the Bulls won't trade him and a pick for Melo and Billups. The dude will become a team cancer, just watch. He's the Mini-Iverson, not team oriented at all.

:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Jordan shot 5/19 in a the close-out game vs the Sonics. 26.3%... Not very good shooting wise, so Michael Jordan is inefficient.

Jordan only shot 42.9% in game 6 vs the Jazz and had 1 rebound and 1 assist, so Michael Jordan is inefficient

Jordan shot 34.6% in game 5 vs the Jazz... so Michael Jordan is inefficient.

You can't base arguments directly on stats, they are completely misleading... stats are overrated.

not the right ones. But the ones he is using sure are

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 03:36 PM
I wont call Pierce a Super Star, and BTW he shot over .470 in multiple seasons. Melo is just as Overrated as Kobe and btw he also shot better than .470 3 out of his 7 seasons. Vince Carter is a super star dunker, not a Super Star player and btw his stats are similar to Kobe's without a championship and same goes for Mcgrady...all 3 of them shoot too much which is where they get their bloated ppg from. Iverson is not a team player just like Kobe, but all those people you named are at Kobe's level with no ring. Which tells you other factors helped Kobe beyond his inefficiency.

Do you ever think that you are indeed the wrong one and the other 14 people telling you this may indeed be in the right? You claimed a player to be inefficient. When asked for facts you cited a 47% FIELD GOAL percentage. That has to be one of the most laughable things I've read on here.

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:36 PM
Only some would consider Kobe to be "overrated". The consensus seems to be that he's right behind LeBron and more or less tied with Wade. That's not "overrating" a dude who just put up 29 PPG/6 APG/6 RPG/1.5 SPG on 57% TS over 23 playoff games while playing with a broken finger and a knee that required surgery.

Numbers after having knee drained (19 games): 31 PPG/7 RPG/6 APG on 58% TS

Last 3 series:

33 PPG/6 RPG/ 5 APG on 60% TS! vs Jazz
34 PPG/9 RPG/ 7 APG on 60% TS vs Suns
29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG on 53% TS vs Celtics

:rolleyes:

lol....here we go with advanced stats. When you have no facts, you dig one out. FG is Field Goal, show us how many shots he took to achieve those.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 03:37 PM
couldn't agree more. And my creation of this thread was not to start a war. I don't understand how fans can't set aside their baises and have a talk about all subjects. The sensitivity level has reached new heights this summer. Part of that is due to so much transition in rosters, the FIBA games, and there just not being enough to talk about, so the same subjects get repeated like an old record.
I don't think some of the article has any accuracy in it. Gasol the reason the Lakers won? Rose a terrible jump shooter (when his midrange is nearing elite), or him being mentioned as an MVP candidate? I haven't seen that.

Simply put, PSD is a board of discussion. There should not be anything off limits, just because a few posters are so full of pride for men they don't even know, they are blinded with their homer goggles.

Agreed. But some of the opposing fans sadly have to really grow up when it comes to making an opinion about a player because of how a hand full of hometown fans portray him. When it comes to Rose all Bulls fans don't think he is an elite player or even a top 5 point guard yet. I encourage everybody to go in our game threads and you'll see the difference between the bulls fans you see in the nba forum "overrating" Rose and the fans that hold him accountable for his weaknesses. Sadly the majority of our knowledgeable fans don't even bother posting in here.

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 03:39 PM
I wont call Pierce a Super Star, and BTW he shot over .470 in multiple seasons.
And his career percentage is below Kobe's.


Melo is just as Overrated as Kobe and btw he also shot better than .470 3 out of his 7 seasons.
His career % is barely above Kobe's and his 3-point % is atrocious.


Vince Carter is a super star dunker, not a Super Star player and btw his stats are similar to Kobe's without a championship and same goes for Mcgrady...all 3 of them shoot too much which is where they get their bloated ppg from. Iverson is not a team player just like Kobe, but all those people you named are at Kobe's level with no ring. Which tells you other factors helped Kobe beyond his inefficiency.

You diss all of the above players, but yet it's likely that all of them will end up in the Hall of Fame some day. VC and McGrady are question marks, but the rest will certainly make it. If "hall of fame" is not worthy of "superstar" status than I don't know what is.

Also, as several players already mentioned, you cannot simply look at shooting percentages (though even if you do, Kobe has pretty solid numbers for a SG). Look at TS%, Usage % and Player Efficiency Rating.

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 03:40 PM
lol....here we go with advanced stats. When you have no facts, you dig one out. FG is Field Goal, show us how many shots he took to achieve those.

[ ] Understands what efficiency means

[ X ] Wow @ the bolded

jimbobjarree
10-13-2010, 03:41 PM
spot on

shep33
10-13-2010, 03:41 PM
not the right ones. But the ones he is using sure are

Yeah I changed my post after I wrote that, stats IMO tell a good chunk of how good a player is, but there is that 25% or so (haha which is a stat itself), where intangibles come into play.

But I agree with you, when looking at stats, we have to look closely at certain stats and not just the face value.

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:44 PM
Do you ever think that you are indeed the wrong one and the other 14 people telling you this may indeed be in the right? You claimed a player to be inefficient. When asked for facts you cited a 47% FIELD GOAL percentage. That has to be one of the most laughable things I've read on here.

The point is, none of those people you named has a ring, excluding Pierce. No one give Pierce credit for his ring because we all know he got help. But Laker fans would never admit that Kobe isn't Super Man, they credit him for everything when his game/stats prove something else. If you put any of those guys in Kobe's situation they'd probably have 5 or more rings also. Credit the help Kobe got, credit Phil, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum because without those guys Kobe would have never got past the 1st round. He never did without any of them.

Avenged
10-13-2010, 03:45 PM
It depends on what you classify as overrated when it comes to Kobe. If you don't think he's a top 3 player like a lot on this board do, then you're underrating him.

If you think he's the unanimous best player in the league, then he's "overrated". I wouldn't classify a player who at least has a case for himself to be the best player in the league overrated, but that's just me.

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 03:47 PM
The point is, none of those people you named has a ring, excluding Pierce. No one give Pierce credit for his ring because we all know he got help. But Laker fans would never admit that Kobe isn't Super Man, they credit him for everything when his game/stats prove something else. If you put any of those guys in Kobe's situation they'd probably have 5 or more rings also. Credit the help Kobe got, credit Phil, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum because without those guys Kobe would have never got past the 1st round. He never did without any of them.

That's not the point because first off I didn't name any players and second off the point is you called a player inefficient and backed it up by stating his FG% then when everyone in the forum said you are wrong to say that you continued to argue it.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:50 PM
lol....here we go with advanced stats. When you have no facts, you dig one out. FG is Field Goal, show us how many shots he took to achieve those.

other way around dude. Advanced stats absolutely trump per game stats, and basic field goal %. TS% is the DEFINITION of measuring scoring efficiency.

saintl2510
10-13-2010, 03:51 PM
I dont understand why this is difficult to understand... no one is saying that Kobe is over-rated historically...

We are saying that people still see Kobe as he was 5 years ago, and he isnt that player anymore. TODAY he is overrated.

Kobe still hasn't start to decline hes got at least 3 more good years in him

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:52 PM
Agreed. But some of the opposing fans sadly have to really grow up when it comes to making an opinion about a player because of how a hand full of hometown fans portray him. When it comes to Rose all Bulls fans don't think he is an elite player or even a top 5 point guard yet. I encourage everybody to go in our game threads and you'll see the difference between the bulls fans you see in the nba forum "overrating" Rose and the fans that hold him accountable for his weaknesses. Sadly the majority of our knowledgeable fans don't even bother posting in here.

its a shame, but this is true for almost every team. I suggest everyone venture into team boards, even if its to look around.

Bullsfan22
10-13-2010, 03:53 PM
*Making a mental note of the numerous people that have made a fool of themselves to never quote them again.*

PS. Do not add them to the ignore list because sometimes ignorance is comedy.

dnewguy
10-13-2010, 03:53 PM
[ ] Understands what efficiency means

[ X ] Wow @ the bolded

Well I think any player that takes 30 shots to have 28 points is pretty much inefficient, and that's what Kobe does most of the time he plays.

saintl2510
10-13-2010, 03:54 PM
Kobe is the best and that's all that has to be said

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:55 PM
Kobe still hasn't start to decline hes got at least 3 more good years in him

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

yes he has. The problem is, unless you understand how to read stats the right way, a skilled player like Kobe's decline will be nearly undetectable to the naked eye
The second part of your statement is probably correct though. He has 3 more years as a top 5 player imo

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:55 PM
Kobe is the best and that's all that has to be said

well ok then

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Well I think any player that takes 30 shots to have 28 points is pretty much inefficient, and that's what Kobe does most of the time he plays.

please provide evidence for this claim. Seriously man, you are losing credibility with this lost debate.

NYtilIdie
10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Kobe's PER isn't great for a superstar because he didn't need to shoot much when he had Shaq and doesn't now with Gasol. But when he was forced to take all the shots his PER was
28 and 26 which is very good.

Also to look at regular FG% is just laughable. Kobe's TS% is just ridiculous for a SG, his career average is .557%, even his eFG% is a very solid at 49%.

Even in the playoffs his production never dipped.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

saintl2510
10-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Well I think any player that takes 30 shots to have 28 points is pretty much inefficient, and that's what Kobe does most of the time he plays.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

yes he has. The problem is, unless you understand how to read stats the right way, a skilled player like Kobe's decline will be nearly undetectable to the naked eye
The second part of your statement is probably correct though. He has 3 more years as a top 5 player imo

yea i see what your saying but playing with broken fingers and other injuries will make your efficiency decrease

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 03:58 PM
yea i see what your saying but playing with broken fingers and other injuries will make your efficiency decrease

so does 1400 games man

effen5
10-13-2010, 03:58 PM
lol....here we go with advanced stats. When you have no facts, you dig one out. FG is Field Goal, show us how many shots he took to achieve those.

:facepalm:

fadedmario
10-13-2010, 04:00 PM
good list

younggunn113
10-13-2010, 04:03 PM
Well I think any player that takes 30 shots to have 28 points is pretty much inefficient, and that's what Kobe does most of the time he plays.

FGA per game 2010

Lebron 20.1
Kobe 21.5
Durant 20.3
Melo 21.8

And why not...Jordan 22.9 (career)

He doesn't shoot much more than any other superstar in the league. Good point though.

mjt20mik
10-13-2010, 04:03 PM
please provide evidence for this claim. Seriously man, you are losing credibility with this lost debate.

I strongly disagree. You can not lose credibility when there was none to begin with.

saintl2510
10-13-2010, 04:03 PM
:facepalm:

Carmelo is to one dimensional if i was Chicago i would've never trade for him

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:04 PM
according to a poster or two here, that is considered inefficient.
:speechless:

About as funny as you thinking he's overrated.

mjt20mik
10-13-2010, 04:06 PM
The point is, none of those people you named has a ring, excluding Pierce. No one give Pierce credit for his ring because we all know he got help. But Laker fans would never admit that Kobe isn't Super Man, they credit him for everything when his game/stats prove something else. If you put any of those guys in Kobe's situation they'd probably have 5 or more rings also. Credit the help Kobe got, credit Phil, Shaq, Gasol and Bynum because without those guys Kobe would have never got past the 1st round. He never did without any of them.

It's a team sport. No one person has done it all. In order to win a championship, you need a solid team. I don't think any Laker fan would say Kobe won them the championship.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:06 PM
About as funny as you thinking he's overrated.

when fans think he is the best player in the NBA, he is overrated. But attempting to say he is inefficient is indeed insane

saintl2510
10-13-2010, 04:07 PM
Really??

Kobe and Rose in there??? Really??? Kobe winning 5 championships and arguably the best player in the NBA is overrated??? Overrated by who??? They are perfectly rated.

Kobe is a superstar right now and has been for quite a while. He is THE BEST player on the championship team that just won back to back - and he is overrated???

Now, onto Rose. Rose just became an all-star in his 2nd year and has been improving every month/year but he is overrated??? How so??? and who said he is a superstar??? Don't let 1 or 2 fans change things in your brain while 100s of the other fans think otherwise. Rose is an All-star right now and he is only getting better.

Yes, he has some flaws and he is already making strides. He couldn't shoot at all when he came into the league and he improved his Mid-Range shooting so well that he became one of the best already in just 1 year.

This year, he is already looking pretty darn good defensively (look at who he guarded so far in the 4 games - Jennings (0-5 fg), Kidd/whoever else, Wall (his worst preseason game), Calderon/Jack yesterday and see how they played/did vs Rose and vs other teams. That will tell you how good Rose has become defensively.

He has worked on his 3pt shooting as well which will come in time and he has already improved in getting to the line so far (6fta in preseason).

So how are they overrated again???

this people are just plain stupid rose and kobe are two of the best players in the league

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:07 PM
lol....here we go with advanced stats. When you have no facts, you dig one out. FG is Field Goal, show us how many shots he took to achieve those.

There's nothing really "advanced" about TS%. It just takes threes and FT's into account. It's basically PPS (Points Per Shot). But you're right, most advanced stats are garbage, especially ones that have arbitrary weights like PER.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:08 PM
this people are just plain stupid rose and kobe are two of the best players in the league

making blanket statements with no evidence after calling anyone who thinks unlike you stupid is not the smartest approach homie. Make a point

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:09 PM
when fans think he is the best player in the NBA, he is overrated. But attempting to say he is inefficient is indeed insane

Except most fans have him #2 or # 3 behind LeBron and maybe Wade, which means he's rated just fine. Hell, a lot of people have him at #4 or #5. He's rated just fine.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:09 PM
There's nothing really "advanced" about TS%. It just takes threes and FT's into account. It's basically PPS (Points Per Shot). But you're right, most advanced stats are garbage, especially ones that have arbitrary weights like PER.

its more than PPS. And no, many of the advanced stats out there hold great value. You can hate on PER all you like, but they actually are promoted by shot creation (ie, they have helped Kobe out over his career)

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:09 PM
Except most fans have him #2 or # 3 behind LeBron and maybe Wade, which means he's rated just fine. Hell, a lot of people have him at #4 or #5. He's rated just fine.

exactly where I have him. I think I rate him fairly

avrpatsfan
10-13-2010, 04:09 PM
Where's Bynum, Bosh, STAT, KG, hell, even Dirk.
Bynum is a very good player and not overrated. Amare is not too overrated I don't see people raving about him, KG is not talked about as much anymore, and Dirk is rarely discussed anymore..

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 04:14 PM
when fans think he is the best player in the NBA, he is overrated. But attempting to say he is inefficient is indeed insane

FWIW this was exactly my point earlier in the thread. Players are only overrated to people doing the overrating (ex. someone thinking Kobe is the best player in the world right now means THEY are overrating him it doesn't mean he himself is an overrated player - just in that instance he is). A player gets overrated or underrated by someone because they either are homers and blinded by their love for their team or they are the opposite of that and are blinded by their hatred for another team or they are ignorant and don't even watch the player play and just get into the mob mentality and join the majority. In other words threads like these just become bash fests between homers and haters for individual players, the homers doing the overrating and the haters the underrating.

I've had an aggravating day to say the least, normally I would just laugh at some comments here and move on.

zo#33
10-13-2010, 04:15 PM
Except most fans have him #2 or # 3 behind LeBron and maybe Wade, which means he's rated just fine. Hell, a lot of people have him at #4 or #5. He's rated just fine.

But most fans doesnt have him at 2 or 3.. He was just voted the best player in the nba by psd

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 04:15 PM
this people are just plain stupid rose and kobe are two of the best players in the league

This-Rose=Correct

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:21 PM
its more than PPS. And no, many of the advanced stats out there hold great value. You can hate on PER all you like, but they actually are promoted by shot creation (ie, they have helped Kobe out over his career)

Actually, TS% has a strong correlation to PPS. Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but in general they're similar. And no, many of the "advanced" stats have strong weakness and are garbage. And yes, PER is garbage because it overvalues rebounds, overvalues per-minute production, arbitrarily assigns weights, attempts to measure defense through defensive rebounds, blocks/steals (laughable), overvalues the impact of pace on individual production (especially for stars), undervalues assists etc. Oh, and Kobe's PER is depressed by the fact that he's been on contenders most of his career, which has heavily affected his volume scoring, which PER loves.

Ollie Tabooger
10-13-2010, 04:24 PM
I strongly disagree. You can not lose credibility when there was none to begin with.

lol that's what i was thinking. 900+ posts of pure idiocy.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:24 PM
But most fans doesnt have him at 2 or 3.. He was just voted the best player in the nba by psd

Well, over at ******, ISH, and most basketball forums the consensus him him at #2-#4. Most lists have him there, too. So yeah, he's rated fine.

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:25 PM
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2010/10/7/1736580/the-2010-nba-all-overrated-team



While I know this could go south quickly, please try and keep it rational. Thoughts?

detroitbadboys.com??? isnt this the same site that doesn't do anything but put down the bulls that I remember from last year that someone put up an article that was closed pretty fast??? rose on this list is just plain dumb, so is kobe and melo as well. Kobe is still finals mvp and he is overrated??? wow!!! how credible is this site? and melo scores a lot in the regular season, but did you notice in the playoffs, every single one of his stats jumps up. whoever wrote this list is dumb.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Actually, TS% has a strong correlation to PPS. Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but in general they're similar. And no, many of the "advanced" stats have strong weakness and are garbage. And yes, PER is garbage because it overvalues rebounds, overvalues per-minute production, arbitrarily assigns weights, attempts to measure defense through defensive rebounds, blocks/steals (laughable), overvalues the impact of pace on individual production (especially for stars), undervalues assists etc. Oh, and Kobe's PER is depressed by the fact that he's been on contenders most of his career, which has heavily affected his volume scoring, which PER loves.

correct. TS% is similar, but it carries a seperate weight to it, effected by results for each type of shot in correlation with what it does to a possession. You have PER royally confused man. If you don't like PER, which runs off estimates (but does adjust for pace, and shot creation big time), then use APER. It is based on actuals.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:25 PM
detroitbadboys.com??? isnt this the same site that doesn't do anything but put down the bulls that I remember from last year that someone put up an article that was closed pretty fast??? rose on this list is just plain dumb, so is kobe and melo as well. Kobe is still finals mvp and he is overrated......wow how credible is this site? and melo scores a lot in the regular season, but did you notice in the playoffs, every single one of his stats jumps up. whoever wrote this list is dumb.

there is another link a few pages back if you prefer it...
Also, Melo's career playoff stats, efficiency wise, are lower than his regular season. But quite honestly, this can be said for virtually anyone. You don't get to beat up on crappy teams in the playoffs to pad your stats

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:27 PM
That is actually a solid list... I think I would have picked a very similar list. Although I think that Noah and Bynum (injury) are also over stated. I agree with the rest of the selections though.

wait..... you think noah is overrated but not bosh? come on now

footballer2369
10-13-2010, 04:32 PM
Except most fans have him #2 or # 3 behind LeBron and maybe Wade, which means he's rated just fine. Hell, a lot of people have him at #4 or #5. He's rated just fine.


exactly where I have him. I think I rate him fairly

Yeah, he was just voted #1 on PSD, so consensus here is that Lebron is not #1 (the majority voted for "not Lebron", so Kobe was the logical choice)


wait..... you think noah is overrated but not bosh? come on now

Bosh and Noah should not be in the same sentence. And it's people like you, who vastly underrate Bosh...

If you believe they are comparable you're overrating Noah and underrating Bosh. If you believe Boozer is as good you're doing the same thing, etc.

In no way is he overrated, except by the occasional bandwagon fan...

I'd say he's underrated by the majority.

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:32 PM
there is another link a few pages back if you prefer it...
Also, Melo's career playoff stats, efficiency wise, are lower than his regular season. But quite honestly, this can be said for virtually anyone. You don't get to beat up on crappy teams in the playoffs to pad your stats

the nuggets didnt have a good playoff performance like they did two years ago but you still cant say the nuggets played against crappy teams. its not like melo's scoring just went up, it was rebounds,assists and shooting percentage as well. how is kobe bryant on this list? he just won a finals. I dislike the dude, but putting kobe up there is just plain ********. are they still going to put them up there when the lakers win again this season? seriously.....

kjoke
10-13-2010, 04:35 PM
wow at bosh being over rated.

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:38 PM
Yeah, he was just voted #1 on PSD, so consensus here is that Lebron is not #1 (the majority voted for "not Lebron", so Kobe was the logical choice)



Bosh and Noah should not be in the same sentence. And it's people like you, who vastly underrate Bosh...

If you believe they are comparable you're overrating Noah and underrating Bosh. If you believe Boozer is as good you're doing the same thing, etc.

In no way is he overrated, except by the occasional bandwagon fan...

I'd say he's underrated by the majority.

wait wait wait...... bosh isnt dwight howard, its not like he is the best at his position where he cant be compared...... bosh isnt the 2nd, or even third best player at his position...... also yes they can be compared especially when toronto was trying to trade bosh for him since last February. how is he underrated? with the talent they have had on the raptors for the last 2 years they should of been making the playoffs at the very least at a mid level seed, but haven't. instead they were fighting for an 8th spot and didnt even get that.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:39 PM
the nuggets didnt have a good playoff performance like they did two years ago but you still cant say the nuggets played against crappy teams. its not like melo's scoring just went up, it was rebounds,assists and shooting percentage as well. how is kobe bryant on this list? he just won a finals. I dislike the dude, but putting kobe up there is just plain ********. are they still going to put them up there when the lakers win again this season? seriously.....

man, read thru here. I don't feel it necessary to give you a synopsis of the thread

masalex1205
10-13-2010, 04:41 PM
wow at bosh being over rated.

When I think of overrated I think of Chris Bosh

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:43 PM
correct. TS% is similar, but it carries a seperate weight to it, effected by results for each type of shot in correlation with what it does to a possession. You have PER royally confused man. If you don't like PER, which runs off estimates (but does adjust for pace, and shot creation big time), then use APER. It is based on actuals.

I don't have PER "confused". All those problems I listed are legit criticisms. And I'm pretty sure I already addressed pace: it overrates the impact of pace on individual production, especially for star players. As for shot-creation, it also overrates rebounds, so it goes both ways. PER is a garbage stat.

smiddy012
10-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Anybody who claims Rose cant shoot is simply gossiping, and not looking at the facts.

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:45 PM
Anybody who claims Rose cant shoot is simply gossiping, and not looking at the facts.

seriously...... everyone that says he is overrated doesnt watch him play. he is the sole reason why the bulls have made the playoffs that last two years. i mean come on......

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:46 PM
I don't have PER "confused". All those problems I listed are legit criticisms. And I'm pretty sure I already addressed pace: it overrates the impact of pace on individual production, especially for star players. As for shot-creation, it also overrates rebounds, so it goes both ways. PER is a garbage stat.

oh please no....... dont bring up PER........ most useless system in judging talent. its some made up ESPN John Hollinger crap. besides hollinger, you never hear one person outside of espn bring up PER and we all know how well that company judges talent.

smiddy012
10-13-2010, 04:48 PM
seriously...... everyone that says he is overrated doesnt watch him play. he is the sole reason why the bulls have made the playoffs that last two years. i mean come on......

Well Id rather have some people hate the guy and some love him than everyone loving or hating him. Great players/figures tend to strike a divisive chord with the public IMO, so its not a bad sign. We were spoiled with MJ, everyone loved him, and if they didnt they were smart enough not voice their opinion (as it would just make MJ that much stronger). So yeah, only time will tell.

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 04:50 PM
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would like to see an All Underrated Team. Perhaps we should start that thread... Although even a positive thread like that will likely turn negative in about five or six posts...

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't have PER "confused". All those problems I listed are legit criticisms. And I'm pretty sure I already addressed pace: it overrates the impact of pace on individual production, especially for star players. As for shot-creation, it also overrates rebounds, so it goes both ways. PER is a garbage stat.

not really man. If you wish to continue this one, create a thread in the stats forum, and we can talk there. cheers

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:51 PM
Well Id rather have some people hate the guy and some love him than everyone loving or hating him. Great players/figures tend to strike a divisive chord with the public IMO, so its not a bad sign. We were spoiled with MJ, not many people ever ascend to that level of greatness.

that is true as well.....

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:52 PM
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would like to see an All Underrated Team. Perhaps we should start that thread... Although even a positive thread like that will likely turn negative in about five or six posts..

that is true, lol

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:52 PM
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I would like to see an All Underrated Team. Perhaps we should start that thread... Although even a positive thread like that will likely turn negative in about five or six posts...

that would be a matter of opinion thread, in which homerism would destroy in t-minus 2 minutes

DLeeicious
10-13-2010, 04:55 PM
that would be a matter of opinion thread, in which homerism would destroy in t-minus 2 minutes

lol you can't be serious

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 04:56 PM
the only guy on this list I can say is overrated is rudy gay and that is for one what he does for his team isnt worth the money he is getting paid. he could be so good, but when i watch him, it just looks as if he doesnt care most of the time. its a shame someone with his potential wont be much better because of not caring really.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:57 PM
not really man.

yes, really.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 04:58 PM
oh please no....... dont bring up PER........ most useless system in judging talent. its some made up ESPN John Hollinger crap. besides hollinger, you never hear one person outside of espn bring up PER and we all know how well that company judges talent.

Very true. No serious mathematician takes PER seriously.

DaBUU
10-13-2010, 05:01 PM
oh please no....... dont bring up PER........ most useless system in judging talent. its some made up ESPN John Hollinger crap. besides hollinger, you never hear one person outside of espn bring up PER and we all know how well that company judges talent.

yup agreed, PER stats are imaginary.

kArSoN RyDaH
10-13-2010, 05:02 PM
Kevin Durant should be in this ALL OVERRATED TEAM.


i dont see how a player who has had one amazing year is crowned by SOME the best player in the league and a front runner for the MVP. i could have sworn people said you have to be the best player on the best team in order to be MVP. OKC was 8th seed probably somewhere from 4/5-8 this year so there is no way he could win it. if anyone should be on this list its him.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 05:04 PM
When I think of overrated I think of Chris Bosh

When I think of Bosh, I think of a black Avatar.

Da Knicks
10-13-2010, 05:06 PM
Good stuff in here! psd ranked kobe number 1 player in the league and thats why i say overrated. He can be 2 or 3 but number 1 come on now that is just pushing it...Rose will have a lot to prove this year.

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 05:06 PM
Very true. No serious mathematician takes PER seriously.

I know a couple people on here that use that system for judging one player to another which they shouldnt cause like you said, no one takes it seriously. I just laugh at people who use it and use it seriously

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 05:10 PM
yup agreed, PER stats are imaginary.

it really is...... and I dont know why some people on here take that formula and use it like its proven or something.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 05:19 PM
People who toss out stats with no regard for context,skill, team, play-style, injuries etc are foolish in general. Like those people who love PER--according to PER, Dirk>Bird, D.Rob> >>Hakeem, CP3>>>Magic, David Lee> Kobe, etc. LOL

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 05:21 PM
lol you can't be serious

a thread on All Underrated? Yes, I am serious. Everyone would pull their guy from their team, and it would quickly go downhill.

Bravo95
10-13-2010, 05:22 PM
Hard to take the author seriously when they imply that Gasol is better and/or more important than Kobe, even at this age.

Rose is a top 15-20 player in the league, 3rd or 4th best PG.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 05:23 PM
People who toss out stats with no regard for context,skill, team, play-style, injuries etc are foolish in general. Like those people who love PER--according to PER, Dirk>Bird, D.Rob> >>Hakeem, CP3>>>Magic, David Lee> Kobe, etc. LOL

PER is for sure flawed, but it does give us a snapshot picture of efficiency. By no means is it a stat that alone should be argued ranks player A over player B. But it holds value. Again, if you are that against it, create a thread in the statistic forum, and let some of the posters who are very analytical weigh in.

daveb16
10-13-2010, 05:26 PM
No one ever said Kobe isn't a great player. Just implying that he is not placed where he is supposed to be. At their respective stages of their careers Lebron and Wade have both passed Kobe yet Kobe still gets the most recognition, making him overrated. No baiting intended, just clarifying things up.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 05:33 PM
PER is for sure flawed, but it does give us a snapshot picture of efficiency. By no means is it a stat that alone should be argued ranks player A over player B. But it holds value. Again, if you are that against it, create a thread in the statistic forum, and let some of the posters who are very analytical weigh in.

No singular stat should be used in a Player A vs Player B comparison. And why don't you start a thread on it? It doesn't really matter to me. I know how to appropriately compare players. PER holds very little value.

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 05:35 PM
Again, most have Kobe #2-#4, which means he's ranked well. And LeBron gets more recognition than Kobe. Easily.

eXpLiiCt
10-13-2010, 05:38 PM
Kobe on this list? LMFAO that's the stupidest **** ever

D Roses Bulls
10-13-2010, 05:39 PM
No singular stat should be used in a Player A vs Player B comparison. And why don't you start a thread on it? It doesn't really matter to me. I know how to appropriately compare players. PER holds very little value.

agreed....... I mean can one person give me one good analyst who uses PER??? one gm who uses PER??? Hell, even one sports writer besides hollinger that uses PER and a sports writer who is credible, not a blogger or an opinionated writer such as this author of this article. I remember I think that marc gasol/Noah thread and regardless of who you think is better, you dont use the PER formula to justify it like i believe two people did. that just makes your argument on that look weaker that you have to resort to a very flawed formula such as PER

Jacks3
10-13-2010, 05:41 PM
agreed....... I mean can one person give me one good analyst who uses per??? One gm who uses per??? Hell, even one sports writer besides hollinger that uses per and a sports writer who is credible, not a blogger or an opinionated writer such as this author of this article. I remember i think that marc gasol/noah thread and regardless of who you think is better, you dont use the per formula to justify it. That just makes your argument on that look weaker that you have to resort a very flawed formulas such as per

+1

celtisox41
10-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Bryant should not be on this list, saying Pau Gasol is better than him is completley ******** (sorry if that offends someone). He gets points because he is the best actor in the NBA (Lebron is a very close second), he's not even close to kobe. And rudy gay isn't overrated, he's overpaid, nobody thinks rudy gay is a superstar. Lebron should be on here, he gets a lot of points off of being big, fast, and a complete pansy, nobody 6-9 260 pounds should be knocked over that easily. He really should be on there

mightybosstone
10-13-2010, 05:49 PM
Kevin Durant should be in this ALL OVERRATED TEAM.


i dont see how a player who has had one amazing year is crowned by SOME the best player in the league and a front runner for the MVP. i could have sworn people said you have to be the best player on the best team in order to be MVP. OKC was 8th seed probably somewhere from 4/5-8 this year so there is no way he could win it. if anyone should be on this list its him.

While I love Kevin Durant (I saw him on UT campus once or twice when we both went there) and I think he will likely be considered a top 3 player by the end of the season and maybe even MVP, this argument certainly holds merit. I was waiting for someone to say this.

Did he lead US to a gold this summer? Yes. Was he the scoring champion last season? Yes. But until he can prove himself by stepping up in the playoffs, I don't think you can crown him yet. And I think you have to say the same thing for Bosh or any other player that has little to no playoff experience.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 05:50 PM
I love how 1 "overrated" thread led to 45 more "Under/Over rated threads.

samevans7
10-13-2010, 05:56 PM
Mike James is overrated.... ppl say he's the best in the NBA.... BS. That title belongs to the man in the Windy City aka Chicago....

Brian Scalabrine.

Law25
10-13-2010, 06:16 PM
I think in order for any of you to post against the writters opinion you have to understand what he means by saying "over-rated". He is not stating those players are not very talented, he not stating that there not accomplished winners, or that they dont have the potential nor skill set to be good players. He is merely stating, as compared to other players and their skill sets, these players are over-valued in reputation.

i.e Kobe bryant at this point in his career IS NOT as productive as D-wade and Bron, yet he is seen as being so by the general public, thus hes overrated.

His stats are not like ther because of his team improvement. I guess after this years when ther number goes down we will all be justified in saying their overrated to, and we now have an league of washed up star wannabe's :eyebrow:. Numbers in some cases mean nothing. Wade and Lebron are more athletic and fun to watch. Kobe is more skilled and fundementaly sound, and an proven winner. Haters hate on. Do you guys listen to the way coaches gameplan for players.

Example for Lebron: Close the lane and make him an shooter. Also limit fast breaks.

Example for Kobe: Hope to god he misses.

Even the league allows teams to be more phyiscal to Kobe than yo Lebron and Wade. Try watching the Lakers during the playoffs then turn to Wade, and Lebron in the playoffs. I promise you hear " WOW the reffs are really letting them play tonight" like an millions time when watching players defend Kobe. Its like when an drill sergent can be harder on one priv then the other, because one can take it and the others cant.

Raoul Duke
10-13-2010, 06:17 PM
Kobe is a fine player, and a deserving all-star. But, from a purely basketball perspective, Pau Gasol is the star of that show. He has even become a better passer. If Kobe isn't the best player on his own team, he isn't the best player in basketball, and he'd have to contend with Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan besides.

That first part should be changed to "from a purely statistical perspective", and Duncan has experienced about as much dropoff recently as Kobe. Basically, the author is a twit.

still1ballin
10-13-2010, 06:18 PM
You know what!

Sebastian Telfair is freaking overrated dammit!

northsider
10-13-2010, 06:20 PM
Mike James is overrated.... ppl say he's the best in the NBA.... BS. That title belongs to the man in the Windy City aka Chicago....

Brian Scalabrine.

Woah Woah Woah back up off red fury.

sep11ie
10-13-2010, 06:27 PM
Mike James is overrated.... ppl say he's the best in the NBA.... BS. That title belongs to the man in the Windy City aka Chicago....

Brian Scalabrine.

Infraction with option to ban.

JWO35
10-13-2010, 06:31 PM
Attention: Chase Bundinger is the new Mike James

-that is all

XerxestheGreat
10-13-2010, 06:56 PM
Your either a Kobe hater or delusional.. 5 chips and he's overated. But haywood isn't, he's just over paid..
Ya okay sure buddy..keep on smokin...

Margie
10-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Andrew Bynum is not overrated.

_KB24_
10-13-2010, 07:11 PM
:laugh2:

Kobe, Melo, and Rose !? :laugh2:

Yeah, top 5 in each position getting called overrated? :facepalm:

LakersMaster24
10-13-2010, 07:41 PM
Ok so first of all I would like to say, that some of you "dedicated" posters, take this too seriously. You people are acting like this is the U.S Goverment forum discussing the Republican and Democratic relationships...:facepalm: This is just a SPORTS forum, and you its just funny when people are proposing "maturity" and turning this forum into a English Tea Party.

Back to the topic, I believe that Kobe is not overrated, simply because he has the ability to carry a team (with all the injuries he had) through the playoffs and throught the Finals and win a championship, TWO times in a row. Now you tell me, is a player who just won two back to back championships, and is cutting through the All-Time Scoring list overrated? :eyebrow:

LakersMaster24
10-13-2010, 07:45 PM
While Gasol led the Lakers in win shares, both in the regular season and playoffs, I would be hard pressed to say he was the better player of the two. It just doesn't sound right.

The thing is that Gasol wouldnt be able to carry this team to the finals and I am not talking about winning the Finals. Although its questionable if Kobe could do the same thing without Gasol, I think that he still has a higher chance of doing that.

godolphins
10-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Good list

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 08:53 PM
The thing is that Gasol wouldnt be able to carry this team to the finals and I am not talking about winning the Finals. Although its questionable if Kobe could do the same thing without Gasol, I think that he still has a higher chance of doing that.

Kobe couldn't lead the Lakers to the finals without a great second option either. My point was not that Gasol is better, my point was, a dude who looks at it purely in statistics, will claim Gasol was more valuable. While everyone who watches the games, AND looks at stats understands that while Pau led them statistically, his freedom was created by Kobe, Bynum, and their system. And Kobe would not have a 4th, and 5th ring without Pau

Basketball is a team game. When rings enter the conversation when trying to rate a player, their roster MUST be looked at. If you or anyone refuse to include roster, then rings must be left out, period

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 08:55 PM
yes, really.

next time, quote my entire post, so I know what the hell you are talking about. Visit the statistics forum.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 08:56 PM
No singular stat should be used in a Player A vs Player B comparison. And why don't you start a thread on it? It doesn't really matter to me. I know how to appropriately compare players. PER holds very little value.

wow, we agree on something, which I have said countless times.
And I started one in the proper forum. If you are the end all be all of player comparisons, that is total news to me.

pistonsfanomg
10-13-2010, 09:21 PM
nice you got this from the detroitbadboys site lol

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 09:29 PM
Post your complaints in the feedback section L Train. This thread is not where it needs to be.

Raoul Duke
10-13-2010, 09:38 PM
Now, to the text of your post, you don't look at it correctly. Career achievements should not weigh on TODAY's rankings.

Thats a Hawkeye quote, just so that it's clear because the quote button wasn't working for me when I tried to quote it by conventional means.

Anywho, I think his last two championships count just fine, being that they occurred over the last two seasons. In those last two years, he's won the max amount of rings and finals MVP trophies possible. It's not as if thats ancient history.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Thats a Hawkeye quote, just so that it's clear because the quote button wasn't working for me when I tried to quote it by conventional means.

Anywho, I think his last two championships count just fine, being that they occurred over the last two seasons. In those last two years, he's won the max amount of rings and finals MVP trophies possible. It's not as if thats ancient history.

as I said, team success does not automatically make their best player THE best player in the NBA. Those who say, "Player A is the best cause his team won the last 2 rings", are not looking at it properly.
Players don't manage their team, payroll, and market. They play with what they are given

Raoul Duke
10-13-2010, 09:45 PM
"Player A is the best cause his team won the last 2 rings"

Is that what I said? Alrighty then! 'Sides, man, that sounds an awful lot like "if you're not looking at it like me, you're wrong". Regardless, thats not what I said. I just said that his accomplishments should certainly count given how recent they are and also given the fact that we're not even into the regular season. It should mean something that I'm a die-hard Detroit fan and I'm vehemently disagreeing with a Pistons beat writer or some such (blogger? who the **** knows anymore...).