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Wade>You
10-12-2010, 11:24 AM
I started thinking how a player's missed FGAs might give us a better perspective of where that player ranks amongst the greatest scorers. While I don't claim for this to be a tell-all stat, I think people will be surprised by what I found.

Before anything: many people have different definitions of 'great scorers.' Many people believe putting up the most PPG, regardless of efficiency, defines a great scorer. Others, such as myself, believe that great scorers achieve a balance of PPG while maintaining a high FG%.

I took the consensus #1 scorer in the NBA and compared his missed FGAs to that of the two greatest scorers in the history of the game.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 12,470 missed FGAs in 1,560 reg. season games (20 years)
Karl Malone: 12,682 missed FGAs in 1,476 reg. season games (19 years)
Kobe as of today: 10,759 missed FGAs in 1,021 reg. season games (14 years)

Kobe missed FGAs in 09-10: 853

853 x 2 (seasons) = 1,706

1,706 + 10,759 = 12,465 projected missed FGAs two years from now (more than KAJ, and by the third season, at this rate, more than Karl Malone).

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 11:56 AM
well yes, PPG is a poor way of measuring scoring ability, but simply using missed field goals is also not the best way. But yes, Kobe misses a TON of shots, but gets to the line over his career at a high enough rate to re-enter the discussion for prolific scorers.

KnicksorBust
10-12-2010, 06:55 PM
I'm not even clear on the theory being proposed in the OP but if it's used to downgrade players like Malone, KAJ, or Kobe then the stat they are using is supremely flawed.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 10:41 AM
I'm not even clear on the theory being proposed in the OP but if it's used to downgrade players like Malone, KAJ, or Kobe then the stat they are using is supremely flawed.

well, just because there are stats that downgrade perceived stars doesn't make them inaccurate. Its public perception that makes the average fan think Iverson or Melo is an efficient scoring machine, when there is plenty of evidence saying otherwise.

Baller1
10-13-2010, 11:28 AM
I don't know if I really like the use of this statistic, I guess it is a pretty unique way to determine scoring. But if you take a lot of shots in your career, you're going to miss a lot. Simple as that. It shouldn't take away from any players, significantly at least.

daleja424
10-13-2010, 11:50 AM
Interesting thought... doesnt really speak to efficiency though without analyzing some sort of %s. If Kobe averages more FGAs then it would be okay to have more FGmisses, if the FG% is in the same ballpark. All that being said, obviously Kobe doesnt stack up to big guys in terms of efficiency. If that was the point of this thread I dont now what to tell you.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:33 PM
Interesting thought... doesnt really speak to efficiency though without analyzing some sort of %s. If Kobe averages more FGAs then it would be okay to have more FGmisses, if the FG% is in the same ballpark. All that being said, obviously Kobe doesnt stack up to big guys in terms of efficiency. If that was the point of this thread I dont now what to tell you.

do you mean PF/C's, or the top guys out there overall?

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 04:34 PM
to me, this statistic tells me that the top field goal missers, for the most part, where those that were very durable, and played lots of minutes from beginning to end as premier parts of their teams offense. That is really all it tells me

Jacks3
10-14-2010, 02:28 PM
Kobe is extremely efficient--

Career--25 PPG on 56% TS
Peak---32 PPG on 58% TS

And his TOV% has always been solid.

Kobe being inefficient=myth.

KnicksorBust
10-14-2010, 02:40 PM
to me, this statistic tells me that the top field goal missers, for the most part, where those that were very durable, and played lots of minutes from beginning to end as premier parts of their teams offense. That is really all it tells me

"Durable, good players have taken the most shots in NBA History."
Someone get Hollinger on the phone. We have a historic find. :rolleyes: j/k

Hawkeye15
10-14-2010, 04:12 PM
"Durable, good players have taken the most shots in NBA History."
Someone get Hollinger on the phone. We have a historic find. :rolleyes: j/k

seriously haha. But that is all it shows me.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2010, 04:14 PM
Kobe is extremely efficient--

Career--25 PPG on 56% TS
Peak---32 PPG on 58% TS

And his TOV% has always been solid.

Kobe being inefficient=myth.

agreed. He isn't the most efficient superstar of all time, but FGM for Kobe is due to the fact that he played huge minutes with a big role for 13/14 seasons so far. He is #16 all time in field goals made, and #9 in free throws made, with 3-4 years left in him. It would put him top 10 in both FGM, and FGA. Not sure how that isn't efficient. Sure Kobe misses a ton of shots at times, but his TS% has always reflected that he is an elite scorer.

DenButsu
10-15-2010, 05:23 AM
Okay, here's my (very non-scientific) stab at the same thing.

My list ends up looking like this:


Avg. Rank Player
13.5 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
14.5 Reggie Miller
24.5 Charles Barkley*
26 Adrian Dantley*
26 Shaquille O'Neal
28 Karl Malone*
39.5 Michael Jordan*
44 Ray Allen
44.5 Dirk Nowitzki
45 Robert Parish*
46.5 Moses Malone*
53 George Gervin*
54.5 Oscar Robertson*
59.5 Larry Bird*
64.5 Dale Ellis
68 Kobe Bryant
75.5 Bernard King
75.5 Walter Davis
77 Mitch Richmond
78 Hakeem Olajuwon*
84 Patrick Ewing*
90 Alex English*
94 Jerry West*
94 Walt Bellamy*
94.5 Wilt Chamberlain*
96 Tim Duncan
99 Kevin Garnett
104 Clyde Drexler*


I started with the top 50 in FGAs (list below), and the top 200 in TS% (this list below, too). Then I cross-filtered those two lists to pare it down to a smaller set of players who are tops in both FGAs and TS%. And so the "Average Rankings" above are simply the averages of their FGA and TS% rankings, hopefully meaning that these are the all-time scorers who are (/were) both the most prolific and proficient.

(BTW, this is "NBA" and not "ABA/NBA").

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------


The cross-filtered lists:

Rank Player FGA
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28307
2 Karl Malone* 26210
3 Michael Jordan* 24537
6 Wilt Chamberlain* 23497
8 Alex English* 21036
9 Hakeem Olajuwon* 20991
12 Kobe Bryant 19731
13 Oscar Robertson* 19620
14 Shaquille O'Neal 19256
15 Patrick Ewing* 19241
16 Moses Malone* 19225
17 Jerry West* 19032
20 Kevin Garnett 17916
21 Robert Parish* 17914
22 Clyde Drexler* 17673
23 Reggie Miller 17499
24 Larry Bird* 17334
31 Ray Allen 16290
33 Mitch Richmond 16038
36 Walter Davis 15871
39 George Gervin* 15747
41 Tim Duncan 15621
42 Charles Barkley* 15605
43 Dirk Nowitzki 15534
45 Walt Bellamy* 15340
46 Dale Ellis 15275
48 Adrian Dantley* 15121
49 Bernard King 15109


Rank Player TS%
4 Adrian Dantley* .617
6 Reggie Miller .614
7 Charles Barkley* .612
26 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .592
38 Shaquille O'Neal .585
46 Dirk Nowitzki .580
54 Karl Malone* .577
57 Ray Allen .576
67 George Gervin* .572
69 Robert Parish* .571
76 Michael Jordan* .569
77 Moses Malone* .569
83 Dale Ellis .567
95 Larry Bird* .565
96 Oscar Robertson* .564
102 Bernard King .561
115 Walter Davis .558
121 Mitch Richmond .557
124 Kobe Bryant .557
143 Walt Bellamy* .554
147 Hakeem Olajuwon* .553
151 Tim Duncan .553
153 Patrick Ewing* .553
171 Jerry West* .550
172 Alex English* .550
178 Kevin Garnett .548
183 Wilt Chamberlain* .547
186 Clyde Drexler* .547


The complete lists:

Rank Player FGA
1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 28307
2 Karl Malone* 26210
3 Michael Jordan* 24537
4 Elvin Hayes* 24272
5 John Havlicek* 23930
6 Wilt Chamberlain* 23497
7 Dominique Wilkins* 21589
8 Alex English* 21036
9 Hakeem Olajuwon* 20991
10 Elgin Baylor* 20171
11 Allen Iverson 19906
12 Kobe Bryant 19731
13 Oscar Robertson* 19620
14 Shaquille O'Neal 19256
15 Patrick Ewing* 19241
16 Moses Malone* 19225
17 Jerry West* 19032
18 Hal Greer* 18811
19 Gary Payton 18698
20 Kevin Garnett 17916
21 Robert Parish* 17914
22 Clyde Drexler* 17673
23 Reggie Miller 17499
24 Larry Bird* 17334
25 Clifford Robinson 16875
26 Bob Pettit* 16872
27 Terry Cummings 16628
28 Bob Cousy* 16468
29 Eddie Johnson 16361
30 Gail Goodrich* 16300
31 Ray Allen 16290
32 Rick Barry* 16163
33 Mitch Richmond 16038
34 Vince Carter 15946
35 Isiah Thomas* 15904
36 Walter Davis 15871
37 Dave Bing* 15769
38 Tom Chambers 15749
39 George Gervin* 15747
40 Scottie Pippen* 15700
41 Tim Duncan 15621
42 Charles Barkley* 15605
43 Dirk Nowitzki 15534
44 Dolph Schayes* 15447
45 Walt Bellamy* 15340
46 Dale Ellis 15275
47 Lou Hudson 15129
48 Adrian Dantley* 15121
49 Bernard King 15109
50 Michael Finley 15095


Rank Player TS%
1 Artis Gilmore 0.64
2 Cedric Maxwell 0.63
3 James Donaldson 0.62
4 Adrian Dantley* 0.62
5 Jeff Ruland 0.62
6 Reggie Miller 0.61
7 Charles Barkley* 0.61
8 Magic Johnson* 0.61
9 John Stockton* 0.61
10 Brent Barry 0.61
11 Amare Stoudemire 0.61
12 Steve Nash 0.6
12 Darryl Dawkins 0.6
14 Kevin McHale* 0.6
15 Bobby Jones 0.6
16 Dwight Howard 0.6
17 Ed Pinckney 0.6
18 Steve Johnson 0.6
19 Kevin Martin 0.6
20 Mario Elie 0.6
21 Yao Ming 0.6
22 Nene Hilario 0.6
23 Chris Mullin 0.59
24 Kiki Vandeweghe 0.59
25 Steve Kerr 0.59
26 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.59
27 Mark West 0.59
28 Sidney Moncrief 0.59
29 Brad Daugherty 0.59
30 Manu Ginobili 0.59
31 Bill Cartwright 0.59
32 Buck Williams 0.59
33 Brad Davis 0.59
34 Larry Nance 0.59
35 Detlef Schrempf 0.59
36 Mark Price 0.59
37 Hersey Hawkins 0.59
38 Shaquille O'Neal 0.59
39 Kevin Johnson 0.58
40 Otis Thorpe 0.58
41 David Robinson* 0.58
42 Alonzo Mourning 0.58
43 Jeff Hornacek 0.58
44 Eddy Curry 0.58
45 Corey Maggette 0.58
46 Dirk Nowitzki 0.58
47 Calvin Natt 0.58
48 Gene Banks 0.58
49 Chauncey Billups 0.58
50 Leandro Barbosa 0.58
51 Pau Gasol 0.58
52 Peja Stojakovic 0.58
53 Mike Miller 0.58
54 Karl Malone* 0.58
55 Swen Nater 0.58
56 Carlos Boozer 0.58
57 Ray Allen 0.58
58 Terry Porter 0.58
59 Kyle Korver 0.57
60 Arvydas Sabonis 0.57
61 Dikembe Mutombo 0.57
61 Mark Olberding 0.57
63 Ricky Pierce 0.57
64 Wally Szczerbiak 0.57
65 Dan Issel* 0.57
66 Dana Barros 0.57
67 George Gervin* 0.57
67 Maurice Cheeks 0.57
69 Andrei Kirilenko 0.57
69 Robert Parish* 0.57
69 Kevin Durant 0.57
72 Chris Bosh 0.57
73 Danny Granger 0.57
74 Chris Paul 0.57
75 Kenny Smith 0.57
76 Michael Jordan* 0.57
77 Moses Malone* 0.57
78 Mitch Kupchak 0.57
79 Billy Knight 0.57
80 Frank Brickowski 0.57
81 Eric Piatkowski 0.57
82 Rashard Lewis 0.57
83 Dale Ellis 0.57
84 John Salley 0.57
85 Orlando Woolridge 0.57
86 Danny Schayes 0.57
87 Fred Roberts 0.57
88 David Thompson* 0.57
89 Hubert Davis 0.57
90 James Silas 0.57
91 Paul Pierce 0.57
91 Rich Kelley 0.57
93 Dwyane Wade 0.56
94 Andrew Toney 0.56
95 Larry Bird* 0.56
96 Oscar Robertson* 0.56
96 Brad Miller 0.56
98 Richard Jefferson 0.56
99 Anthony Mason 0.56
100 LeBron James 0.56
100 Wesley Person 0.56
102 Bernard King 0.56
103 Mehmet Okur 0.56
104 Michael Redd 0.56
105 Rod Higgins 0.56
106 Terry Dischinger 0.56
107 Kyle Macy 0.56
108 Lewis Lloyd 0.56
109 Deron Williams 0.56
110 Cedric Ceballos 0.56
111 James Worthy* 0.56
112 Bob Lanier* 0.56
113 Andre Iguodala 0.56
114 Shane Battier 0.56
115 Walter Davis 0.56
116 Julius Erving* 0.56
116 Paul Westphal 0.56
118 Tom Owens 0.56
119 Johnny Newman 0.56
119 Steve Mix 0.56
121 Mitch Richmond 0.56
122 A.C. Green 0.56
123 Doug Collins 0.56
124 Christian Laettner 0.56
124 Kobe Bryant 0.56
126 Ruben Patterson 0.56
127 Brandon Roy 0.56
128 Gerald Wallace 0.56
128 Steve Smith 0.56
130 Rodney McCray 0.56
130 Byron Scott 0.56
132 Marques Johnson 0.56
133 B.J. Armstrong 0.56
133 Rolando Blackman 0.56
135 Kevin Gamble 0.56
136 Jason Terry 0.56
137 Danny Ainge 0.56
138 Shawn Kemp 0.55
139 Chris Gatling 0.55
139 Tree Rollins 0.55
139 Othella Harrington 0.55
142 Glen Rice 0.55
143 Walt Bellamy* 0.55
144 Cliff Levingston 0.55
144 Eddie Jones 0.55
146 Joe Dumars* 0.55
147 Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.55
148 Sean Elliott 0.55
149 Gilbert Arenas 0.55
149 Grant Hill 0.55
151 Tim Duncan 0.55
152 Derek Smith 0.55
153 Patrick Ewing* 0.55
154 Bill Laimbeer 0.55
154 Kelly Tripucka 0.55
156 Sam Perkins 0.55
157 Scott Skiles 0.55
158 Elton Brand 0.55
159 Danny Manning 0.55
160 Ben Gordon 0.55
161 Kenny Carr 0.55
162 Antoine Carr 0.55
163 Derrick McKey 0.55
163 Bob McAdoo* 0.55
163 Bill Walton* 0.55
166 Larry Johnson 0.55
167 Devin Harris 0.55
168 Vern Fleming 0.55
169 Phil Hubbard 0.55
170 Roy Hinson 0.55
171 Jerry West* 0.55
172 Alex English* 0.55
172 Joe Meriweather 0.55
174 Michael Cage 0.55
175 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 0.55
176 Paul Pressey 0.55
177 Kenny Sears 0.55
178 John Paxson 0.55
178 Kevin Garnett 0.55
180 Clifford Ray 0.55
180 Rik Smits 0.55
182 Jim Paxson 0.55
183 Wilt Chamberlain* 0.55
184 Armen Gilliam 0.55
185 Theo Ratliff 0.55
186 Clyde Drexler* 0.55
187 Steve Stipanovich 0.55
188 Dennis Rodman 0.55
189 Dale Davis 0.55
190 Antonio Daniels 0.55
190 J.R. Smith 0.55
192 Allan Houston 0.55
192 John Salmons 0.55
194 Shawn Marion 0.55
195 Tony Parker 0.55
195 Bryon Russell 0.55
197 Matt Harpring 0.54
198 Reggie Theus 0.54
199 James Posey 0.54
199 Mike Dunleavy 0.54