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View Full Version : Artest knocks Europeans leagues' U.S. player limit



D Roses Bulls
10-02-2010, 02:00 PM
I like the part where he says Euros can come to america and play like the whole Spurs team, lol


LONDON -- The Los Angeles Lakers and Minnesota Timberwolves are putting the NBA on display in the most populated city in Europe this weekend as they prepare for a sold-out preseason game Monday in London's O2 Arena.

But when Lakers forward Ron Artest walked off the practice floor of the Crystal Palace in the Bromley section of London on Saturday, he wanted to talk about what he perceives to be a limited population of American players in European and international basketball leagues.


"They need to let more Americans play in the European leagues," Artest said. "There are only like two [Americans] to a team while Europeans can come to America [and play in the NBA] like the whole San Antonio Spurs team -- a whole American team can be full of Europeans. Europe has to be a little more fair to the American players.

"You see a lot of foreign players come over to America to play in the NBA. It's not fair that a lot of American players can't come to China or can't come to Europe to play with as many players as they want, so there's no balance ... They should just make it more even."

The Lakers currently have two foreign players on their roster -- Pau Gasol (Spain) and Sasha Vujacic (Slovenia) -- but have had several other international players on their team in recent seasons (D.J. Mbenga from the Democratic Republic of Congo; Vladimir Radmanovic from Serbia; Ronny Turiaf from France).

Some countries such as Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Austria have no limits on the number of non-European players allowed on each team, but the major leagues in Spain and Greece allow a maximum of two non-Europeans per squad. In the United Kingdom, the maximum is three.

A recent trend has shown American-born players who are able to acquire dual citizenship because of their ancestry -- such as former Florida Gators guard and 2009 Timberwolves second-round draft pick Nick Calathes -- becoming more valuable to executives looking to fill out a European roster because they do not count against the non-European player limit. Calathes plays for Panathinaikos Athens, a perennial Euroleague champion, and has a Greek passport.


Ever since it became popular for NBA general managers to open their doors to Eastern Europeans in the late 1980s, the league has become a venerable melting pot for players from all nationalities.

The NBA ended the 2009-10 season with 79 players from 35 countries on its rosters. The Milwaukee Bucks had the most international players of any team last season with six, comprising nearly half of their 14-man roster.

It is unlikely that the rule Artest called into question will have a direct affect on many of the Lakers players, who will make enough money in the NBA and not need to continue their careers chasing a paycheck overseas.

However, for Los Angeles training camp signee Trey Johnson, the rule has a tremendous impact on his livelihood.

Because he wasn't able to secure a steady spot in the NBA with the New Orleans Hornets or the Cleveland Cavaliers, Johnson has played in Serbia, France and Italy since exhausting his NCAA eligibility at Jackson State University in 2007.

"A lot of us growing up in America, our dream is to play in the NBA and now you're competing against guys that growing up, you didn't think you would have to compete against these guys for jobs," said Johnson, who is not expected to make the Lakers' regular-season roster and thus likely to explore playing overseas again.

"Essentially they are protecting their market by saying you can only sign two or three Americans to a team, they're protecting their guys and giving them job opportunities," Johnson added.

Artest made it clear that he was criticizing the rule, but complimenting the level of basketball being played overseas, citing friends and college teammates who have played in Europe. Artest's younger brother, Daniel Artest, played professionally in Germany.

"A lot of leagues outside the NBA are great -- the Euroleague, the China league, there are leagues in Puerto Rico and Japan, Korea -- there are a lot of great leagues out there," Artest said.

When asked if he would consider playing basketball overseas when he finishes his tenure in the NBA, Artest replied: "I don't know. It depends. I think I want to play football after my career is over ... [as a] tight end."

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5639427

Hawkeye15
10-02-2010, 02:03 PM
totally agree with Ron Ron

I am a legend
10-02-2010, 02:09 PM
euro leagues suck anyway...gives me more reason to say **** europe

D Roses Bulls
10-02-2010, 02:14 PM
Isn't it funny we are starting to agree with ron ron more now a days, lol

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 02:39 PM
Pathetic really...


European LEAGUES have limits on FOREIGN players ever since they were created. That's how Europe is. Lots of different countries with different cultures.
Now, with the EU we have a rule for non-Bosman players(EU + some other European countries).

Every league decides this quota. In Spain I think there is no limit. In Greece it's at most 3 non-EU and a total of six non-Greeks for the league. (usually 3 non-EU and 3 from EU)

In Europe players start their career from the teams they will play in. Importing players is just bad. The NBA is a business that picks which players it wants. Different worlds.

The Euroleague, which is a competition with teams from lots of European countries, has no restrictions either. So a team can send 12 American players if they want to, but they can only be part of their Euroleague squad...

Having this quota is viable. It is the NBA that needs to change some stuff instead of wanting Europe to change an almost perfect SYSTEM. The competitions may not be very intense in most of Europe, but the system works. There's only lack of interest...

The Euroleague is not a league. It has a CUP format... So don't be fooled by the name

I am a legend
10-02-2010, 02:39 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^co-sign

meiklwhite
10-02-2010, 03:31 PM
the problem is, that in most leagues in europe, us-players would be better than the players from that country.

if there weren't any restrictions, that would create two major problems:
firstly, the teams who can afford it financially would absolutely destroy the others. there are no salary caps in european leagues, so financial differences can not be regulated...

secondly, if more americans were allowed, the players from the own country wouldn't get any playing time and could not develop. part of the good national teams some european nations have developed would not be existent if those players wouldn't have gotten playing time in their respective leagues.


the usa doesn't need such a system because their players are better than most foreigners anyway... i'm sure if the us-players were worse in the future than most international players, the nba would think about such restrictions too...


I am from Austria, and contrary to what the article says, there is a restriction on non-EU-players here. Last season, seven "foreigners" were allowed. There was one team - the one with the most money - that had seven american players, and that was their rotation. they had a very solid Austrian Point Guard, who happens to be on the national team and he got virtually no playing time last season because the americans were better than him. So even though there is a restriction, our young talents get no PT because they are stuck behind americans. Thats why our league reduced the foreign players for the upcoming season from seven to six.

Maybe it's clearer now for Americans why we need those restrictions in Europe.

Actually, the NBA should be glad that it is that way. Maybe there wouldn't be a Dirk Nowitzki or a Pau Gasol today if American players weren't limited in Europe.

Burkey3472
10-02-2010, 03:39 PM
Couldn't agree more with him here.

shep33
10-02-2010, 03:56 PM
I agree with Ron to a degree. I can't say I understand how it all works in Europe just cause I don't really know the logistics of it.

I understand that Europeans don't want their leagues to be looked at as kind of a D-league to America. What I'm saying here, is that if most American players want to go there to try and make it to the NBA, I totally get the European leagues system. Because, even though we see european players play over here, over there, they have a lot of players who can play pro ball in America, but they'd rather stay in Europe where the money is good, and the leagues have a high level of competition.

So if it becomes kind of a minor league to the NBA, it really ruins their whole basketball culture over there. At least that's what I think.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 03:59 PM
A fun fact for Ron Artest.

I originally come from Cyprus (little island in southern Europe with less than 1 milion inhabitants)

In Cyprus there are more professional American basketball players than Europeans in the NBA.
In Cyprus there are 9 teams playing in the top flight division... Do the math


Artest should have really done his homework before opening his mouth to unleash such crap. Seeing responses in European basketball forums, I can see more people hating the NBA just because of clueless statements like this.
On the other hand, you have the American NBA fans who have never watched a single non-NBA game or at most have only watched USA vs international teams, who would think that since Artest, an NBA champion, said that, it should be up there with the gospel...

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 04:05 PM
some words to ron artest



dont talk **** about things you dont know **** about.

Lifes easier that way.

Oh and btw barceona is going to sweep the floor with artest and lakers ***** in some days.

Hindy27
10-02-2010, 04:06 PM
secondly, if more americans were allowed, the players from the own country wouldn't get any playing time and could not develop. part of the good national teams some european nations have developed would not be existent if those players wouldn't have gotten playing time in their respective leagues.

This.

Here in Australia it's 2 per team. Mainly for the development of our own players but also if it were higher teams would be paying extra and going broke. We've had a lot of teams leave the competition over the years as there just isn't as much money in the game as other sports. Basketball is behind in popularity to Rugby League, Aussie Rules, Soccer, Rugby Union and Cricket here, even the women's Netball competition looks more popular lately.:(

We're in a different position to most other countries, some of our better players have left here to go to Europe for more money. Which also harms our younger players' development as they aren't playing against decent imports or our better Australian players.

We're stuffed, it's a catch 22. We need better players to give the audience a better product to get more money in TV contracts, gate receipts and sponsorship. Those better players won't come though until there is more money.:(

daleja424
10-02-2010, 04:09 PM
how can you think taking the nationality of a player into account is a good rule? Its blatant discrimination dude!

daleja424
10-02-2010, 04:10 PM
so let me get this straight... americans can't play in ur leagues b/c then your leagues would be too good? you would rather they be weaker leagues... AND you think it is okay to discriminate against people based on nationality/ethnicity

daleja424
10-02-2010, 04:14 PM
So if you came to the US Hellcrooner and you were looking for a job, it would be okay for me to say, sorry we have to many Spanish people already, we are looking to fill our company with home grown Americans.?:rolleyes:

TheWatcher34
10-02-2010, 04:18 PM
Pathetic really...


European LEAGUES have limits on FOREIGN players ever since they were created. That's how Europe is. Lots of different countries with different cultures.
Now, with the EU we have a rule for non-Bosman players(EU + some other European countries).

Every league decides this quota. In Spain I think there is no limit. In Greece it's at most 3 non-EU and a total of six non-Greeks for the league. (usually 3 non-EU and 3 from EU)

In Europe players start their career from the teams they will play in. Importing players is just bad. The NBA is a business that picks which players it wants. Different worlds.

The Euroleague, which is a competition with teams from lots of European countries, has no restrictions either. So a team can send 12 American players if they want to, but they can only be part of their Euroleague squad...

Having this quota is viable. It is the NBA that needs to change some stuff instead of wanting Europe to change an almost perfect SYSTEM. The competitions may not be very intense in most of Europe, but the system works. There's only lack of interest...

The Euroleague is not a league. It has a CUP format... So don't be fooled by the name

:nod: perfectly reasonable post !!

That shows you are better informed than Ron Ron and that you have gained a different perspective than Ron Ron....but that doesnt surprise me.

daleja424
10-02-2010, 04:26 PM
:nod: perfectly reasonable post !!

That shows you are better informed than Ron Ron and that you have gained a different perspective than Ron Ron....but that doesnt surprise me.

what is reasonable about a quota system? :shrug:

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 04:57 PM
In a world with 200 countries, a continent of 50 countries, at a time of a global economic crisis, there are certain countries that want their citizens to have certain advantages over other people, in their own country. Is that wrong on their behalf? A foreigner knows that he is a guest to another country. Be it a tourist or a professional basketball player
Why should an Italian team for example have to feed 6-7 American players who can find work anywhere else they want really and let their own people starve? I understand that this seems exaggerated, but that's the way it is.

(Basketball) Countries like Spain, Greece, Italy, France, Poland, Lithuania etc suffer financially.

Different prospective but I stand 100% behind the quota. Because there are those people who love their countries and want their teams to have most players in their team representing the national team. That's how the rest of the world operates

SLY WILLIAMS
10-02-2010, 05:06 PM
some words to ron artest



go back to your ghetto and dont talk **** about things you dont know **** about.


Seriously? Is that called for?

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 05:10 PM
So if you came to the US Hellcrooner and you were looking for a job, it would be okay for me to say, sorry we have to many Spanish people already, we are looking to fill our company with home grown Americans.?:rolleyes:

while there is a single american citizen wit a better qualification for the job that is <unemployed there shouldnt be a spaniard contracted in that job.


oh and by the way, amercians used to be a hughe advantage back in teh day when the rules where created.

30 years ago the amercian ( no matter if he was an undrafted scrub) woudl come to europe and be the superstar of the team hands down.š<the rules were created ebcause if there wasnt ayn control the richest teams (rennmeber free market in europe, no salary cap setc<) the best teams woudl contract 4 or 5 americans and tehre woudltn be a fiar competetition.
That was back in teh deayššNowdays the limit is worhtless becaue MANY americans come here and are a failure or become simply role players ( ask raja bell bout it) so they can of course do away with the rule.
by the way is not a rule bout <americans but a rule bout people that is not a CEE citizen.
you can have as many <cee citizens as you want, an sapnish team can have 15 italians, or english the rule only applyes to rest of the world players.
<artest deos not know anything bout it so he shoudlnt speak.

and <btw i wojdl be <happy if nba teams had a limit of 1 foreign per team.

that would men the wojldnt waste time and space making the life of euro plaeyrs imposible, since thy woudl only could hav 1 they wodl only draft the ones they <think coudl eb starters and mportant in the team.

daleja424
10-02-2010, 05:12 PM
In a world with 200 countries, a continent of 50 countries, at a time of a global economic crisis, there are certain countries that want their citizens to have certain advantages over other people, in their own country. Is that wrong on their behalf? A foreigner knows that he is a guest to another country. Be it a tourist or a professional basketball player
Why should an Italian team for example have to feed 6-7 American players who can find work anywhere else they want really and let their own people starve? I understand that this seems exaggerated, but that's the way it is.

(Basketball) Countries like Spain, Greece, Italy, France, Poland, Lithuania etc suffer financially.

Different prospective but I stand 100% behind the quota. Because there are those people who love their countries and want their teams to have most players in their team representing the national team. That's how the rest of the world operates

yes. I do believe it is wrong. Times are hard in America too, does that mean that we should send foreign players away and "feed Americans"? NO. Your league loses all credability in the process. Any true busniess/league/etc strives to have the BEST workers they can get, not the best workers that happen to be of a certain race/nationality/ethnicity/etc.

daleja424
10-02-2010, 05:17 PM
while there is a single american citizen wit a better qualification for the job that is <unemployed there shouldnt be a spaniard contracted in that job.


oh and by the way, amercians used to be a hughe advantage back in teh day when the rules where created.

30 years ago the amercian ( no matter if he was an undrafted scrub) woudl come to europe and be the superstar of the team hands down.š<the rules were created ebcause if there wasnt ayn control the richest teams (rennmeber free market in europe, no salary cap setc<) the best teams woudl contract 4 or 5 americans and tehre woudltn be a fiar competetition.
That was back in teh deayššNowdays the limit is worhtless becaue MANY americans come here and are a failure or become simply role players ( ask raja bell bout it) so they can of course do away with the rule.
by the way is not a rule bout <americans but a rule bout people that is not a CEE citizen.
you can have as many <cee citizens as you want, an sapnish team can have 15 italians, or english the rule only applyes to rest of the world players.
<artest deos not know anything bout it so he shoudlnt speak.

and <btw i wojdl be <happy if nba teams had a limit of 1 foreign per team.

that would men the wojldnt waste time and space making the life of euro plaeyrs imposible, since thy woudl only could hav 1 they wodl only draft the ones they <think coudl eb starters and mportant in the team.

even when it "was a problem back in the day" the solution to the problem is not to block talent from your league b/c of where they were born. An acceptable soultion would have been adopting some kind of cap or something...

and I didnt understand parts of what you wrote...but what you are saying is that ron artest is right? (this an hour after you said Ron Artest is an idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about)

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 05:20 PM
even when it "was a problem back in the day" the solution to the problem is not to block talent from your league b/c of where they were born. An acceptable soultion would have been adopting some kind of cap or something...

and I didnt understand parts of what you wrote...but what you are saying is that ron artest is right? (this an hour after you said Ron Artest is an idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about)

No, he s not right becaus ehe doe snot know what he is talking bout.

he is jsut being an american chauvinist.

Geargo Wallace
10-02-2010, 05:21 PM
yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

daleja424
10-02-2010, 05:26 PM
No, he s not right becaus ehe doe snot know what he is talking bout.

he is jsut being an american chauvinist.

Ron Artest said the rule should be undone... u said the same... :eyebrow:

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 05:31 PM
My friend daleja424, this is the huge difference between USA and most of the rest of the world.

You call players workers and want the best and all. We want the best for our European teams as well. But everyone understands the current financial difficulties. In Greece they imposed a rule that requires a 45% income tax! And taxes are paid by the teams almost every time. So a player earning $2m would cost his team almost $3m for a Greek team now. That's why no NBA player came to replace Childress or Kleiza at my rivals' team. Realistically they can't afford even one of them now. That's because there's limited income and also it's very well known that owners lose money in European basketball. It is alive just because some rich guys want to keep it alive above all.

Gone a little far so will go back to the quota again.

It's not discrimination against anyone. Want the best possible example?

Here's one.
I'm a senior at high school, born and raised in the state of Oregon and have applied to UCLA, a California public school. Another student with the exact same qualifications has applied as well, but he is a California cititzen.
He gets to pay $5.000 tuition fees and no accomodation fees because he can live at his own place, while I have to move to a different state, require 7 times more tuition fees, require further $10.000 for accomodation + I need more money to spend for food etc since I won't be living with my parents who would provide all that. We don't care who gets the spot.
The point is, I'm not California's problem. They will probably choose their own citizen instead of me because that's the proper thing for them to do. I'm Oregon's problem. So since I can't afford a private college I have to find a public school in Oregon. If Oregon public schools is full with out of state citizens and foreigners, I'm screwed.

So to translate that into European basketball:

You have a kid in Italy, who is quite talented and can make it to the pro team of his team. This kid has started playing for that team since he was 7 years old. Now he's 20 and there's no more youth teams to climb. It's pros or nothing. His entire life is played here.
We have an issue. The kid cannot be promoted to the first team because the team already had contracted 2 American players in his position, as well as a German/French/whatever player. The team has to let him go since he's not allowed to be in their youth team. He has nowhere to go play basketball really since the other teams have lots of simiar issues. That kid ends up becoming a plummer/builder/farmer or any other job that requires excessive work and has low returns.

So who are you to deprive these kids of their dreams?

daleja424
10-02-2010, 05:39 PM
You have outlined a great parallel, you really have. But my point is not that it doesn't exists.... my point is that it shouldn't exist. Both of those instances show discrimination, both are wrong.

As to your point about money...I am not saying that the teams should be spending more money just to get Americans. THAT would be a legit reason to not have them. If an American is going to work for the same amount of money as a european...I cant see any reason financials should come into play.

Let me say this. I do not know much about the system overthere...but I know UNFAIR when I see it...and this is UNFAIR

As for your sob story about a guy who doesnt make the team... THATS life. It is true everywhere. Clearly the guy is not good enough to be a pro if there are better players out there...so he has to move on. Look at friggin college athletes. 1 in 100 may make it to the pros. The rest of them, who have been playing their whole life, have to move on and do something else.

I am not limiting that guy with my idealogy... his talent is limiting him...

kblo247
10-02-2010, 05:43 PM
My friend daleja424, this is the huge difference between USA and most of the rest of the world.

You call players workers and want the best and all. We want the best for our European teams as well. But everyone understands the current financial difficulties. In Greece they imposed a rule that requires a 45% income tax! And taxes are paid by the teams almost every time. So a player earning $2m would cost his team almost $3m for a Greek team now. That's why no NBA player came to replace Childress or Kleiza at my rivals' team. Realistically they can't afford even one of them now. That's because there's limited income and also it's very well known that owners lose money in European basketball. It is alive just because some rich guys want to keep it alive above all.

Gone a little far so will go back to the quota again.

It's not discrimination against anyone. Want the best possible example?

Here's one.
I'm a senior at high school, born and raised in the state of Oregon and have applied to UCLA, a California public school. Another student with the exact same qualifications has applied as well, but he is a California cititzen.
He gets to pay $5.000 tuition fees and no accomodation fees because he can live at his own place, while I have to move to a different state, require 7 times more tuition fees, require further $10.000 for accomodation + I need more money to spend for food etc since I won't be living with my parents who would provide all that. We don't care who gets the spot.
The point is, I'm not California's problem. They will probably choose their own citizen instead of me because that's the proper thing for them to do. I'm Oregon's problem. So since I can't afford a private college I have to find a public school in Oregon. If Oregon public schools is full with out of state citizens and foreigners, I'm screwed.

So to translate that into European basketball:

You have a kid in Italy, who is quite talented and can make it to the pro team of his team. This kid has started playing for that team since he was 7 years old. Now he's 20 and there's no more youth teams to climb. It's pros or nothing. His entire life is played here.
We have an issue. The kid cannot be promoted to the first team because the team already had contracted 2 American players in his position, as well as a German/French/whatever player. The team has to let him go since he's not allowed to be in their youth team. He has nowhere to go play basketball really since the other teams have lots of simiar issues. That kid ends up becoming a plummer/builder/farmer or any other job that requires excessive work and has low returns.

So who are you to deprive these kids of their dreams?

I respect and get what u are saying, but in all honesty you have to look at it from Ron's perspective as well.

There are 30 teams in the NBA and 450 spots available. There is no quota however on how many Euros can enter the league he plays in and kids in the US dream about playing in. You dash far more dreams by having an unlimited amount of open spots for foreign players in the NBA, so you can't expect him to like that fact. You also can't expect him to be pleased that the same kids who would like nothing more than to play ball for a living only have a limited amount of spots available to them back in the league that said Euros came from.

It is a very lopsided structure. In fact the structure benefits European players much more than it does than Americans in both the NBA and Euroleague.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 05:57 PM
daleja424, I understand your viewpoint, but on the college part of the example I used something that is pretty obvious for foreigners in other countries.

An American requires more money no matter what.

There's a scale.

A player of quality 10 earns 9-11x money
A player of quality 9 earns 8-10x money
etc

An American vs local player now. Both quality 9 let's say

Local player would require:

Salary of $1.000.000
All salary related taxes paid

Optional- rent payment, gas expenses for training

American player would require:

Salary of $1.500.000
All salary related taxes paid
Home & car

One of:
English speaking school for children* / plane tickets to USA 4-5 times a year to visit family

* Family tickets for Christmas & summer vacations

That annuls any question for why not get more Americans. They cost more. As would a Brazilian, a Chinese or a Nigerian of the same calibre.
American would require more money to move to a foreign country. Fact not opinion. Unless the guy is settled in another country for over 3-4 years. We are talking about players that have not been to Europe.

Socially or financially, it does not make sense for leagues to open up to more foreign players.
The Americans that come to Europe are usually inferior to the European ones and they're still earning lots of money. Why bring more scrubs and role players when they can use their own and also promote their community?

It's also a mentality issue which I stated earlier. Fans love having their players representing the national team. Extra pride there. And we have around 50 countries.

If the NBA had a different structure, and had like all 50 states or at least 30, having their own teams(so like an All California team Vs an all Kentucky state etc) and leagues, and the champions plus 1-2 other countries played in a joint cup format competition (being the most prestigous), I'm pretty sure American fans would love having players from their own states. Wouldn't New York fans prefer having New Yorkers in their teams? Wouldn't Miami fans prefer Florida players and even more Miami born players in their teams? If that was the case of course. And of course we are talking about players of similar abilities, not Lebron, Kobe etc...

I even made a thread a couple of months ago for that. I think it would be amazing in the USA if they had a European setup instead of the NBA. It would make basketball a better competition really. Teams competing in their states and every year the winners of all states plus some larger states having a couple of representatives, in a prestigous competition played simultaneously with the state championships. Brazilian soccer uses a similar format.

Though the reason we have Artest and some other people not understanding the European system is because American sports are PROFIT DRIVEN. European sports are MONEY DRIVEN as well, but most teams do not look for profit. Heck, most owners are losing money and are thrilled about it as well!!!
Just two different worlds that have started to collide because of the Information Age ;)

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 06:02 PM
I respect and get what u are saying, but in all honesty you have to look at it from Ron's perspective as well.

There are 30 teams in the NBA and 450 spots available. There is no quota however on how many Euros can enter the league he plays in and kids in the US dream about playing in. You dash far more dreams by having an unlimited amount of open spots for foreign players in the NBA, so you can't expect him to like that fact. You also can't expect him to be pleased that the same kids who would like nothing more than to play ball for a living only have a limited amount of spots available to them back in the league that said Euros came from.

It is a very lopsided structure. In fact the structure benefits European players much more than it does than Americans in both the NBA and Euroleague.

My opinion on this I stated in just my previous post. American basketball should be split into states. The way it is now it does not favor anyone but the owners.

I know that will never happen with $tern or maybe with anyone over there.

I don't have a problem with a quota on non-Americans (and Canadians?) in the NBA. Don't have a problem with a quota in the NHL, MLB or NFL either (don't follow them really, just gonna start following the NHL a bit after a few years of not watching)
NHL has the most foreigners in American sports right?

_KB24_
10-02-2010, 06:11 PM
Never knew that, but that is a sincerely stupid rule by those Euro-leagues.

Tblaze
10-02-2010, 06:13 PM
I think it's good teams limit the number, this way players from a certain nationality actually get a chance to play at the highest level in their own country. This will eventually raise the level of basketballplayers coming from those countries. This way some countries will eventually will be able to produce top-level talent players who could compete with the best of the world.

Now why I think the NBA is the exception on this rule, is because it's by pretty far the best league in the world, where you want the best players of the world competing against eachother...

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 06:16 PM
Now why I think the NBA is the exception on this rule, is because it's by pretty far the best league in the world, where you want the best players of the world competing against eachother...

you can have that, or you can see how soccer works.

Most popular sport in the world, no doubt for that, no league is really superior to any other from the 3 top ones(England, Spain, Italy) and there are 2-3 other leagues with very good teams. There's just the Champions League which is similar to the Euroleague of basketball. As well as other competitions for lesser teams which exist in all sports in Europe, be it soccer, basketball, volleyball, handball, water polo, anything. Domestic league + cup, 3 tiers of continental competitions. And no complaints

System works while the NBA is just losing interest and also losing fans. The Americans will realise this in 10-15 years when their national team will not be so dominating against the other teams anymore

avrpatsfan
10-02-2010, 06:19 PM
Wow I actually agree with Ron Artest.

shep33
10-02-2010, 06:20 PM
They should create a league in Middle-Earth...

-The orcs would probably own the glass.
-Elves would be sharp-shooters
-Dwarves would be lock down defenders cause they get so low


Makes perfect sense. Everybody would be welcome there, but the fate of Middle-Earth would rest in the balance of each game.

Too many insults coming out of this topic, lighten up guys.

Tblaze
10-02-2010, 06:32 PM
you can have that, or you can see how soccer works.

Most popular sport in the world, no doubt for that, no league is really superior to any other from the 3 top ones(England, Spain, Italy) and there are 2-3 other leagues with very good teams. There's just the Champions League which is similar to the Euroleague of basketball. As well as other competitions for lesser teams which exist in all sports in Europe, be it soccer, basketball, volleyball, handball, water polo, anything. Domestic league + cup, 3 tiers of continental competitions. And no complaints

System works while the NBA is just losing interest and also losing fans. The Americans will realise this in 10-15 years when their national team will not be so dominating against the other teams anymore

Agreed, but soccer is way further in terms of having more then one dominant league around the world thus makes that system very attractive.

Basketball isn't quite there yet (worldwide) even though they have the euroleague in europe which is about the same as the champions league in soccer (which leaves out some countries aswell) in terms of system, of course the champions league is the best league in the world and the euroleague is not...

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 06:34 PM
You can make all the excuses that you want, but the fact is, it is discriminatory. Europe and other countries try to tell us what to do. We are told how to run our country. We are told how to maintain border security. We are told we are doing things all wrong. The fact is America is the BEST country in the world. We don't do everything right, but we fix our mistakes. Europe is going backwards.

lakers4sho
10-02-2010, 06:37 PM
The fact is America is the BEST country in the world.

Keep dreaming.

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 06:40 PM
My opinion on this I stated in just my previous post. American basketball should be split into states. The way it is now it does not favor anyone but the owners.

I know that will never happen with $tern or maybe with anyone over there.

I don't have a problem with a quota on non-Americans (and Canadians?) in the NBA. Don't have a problem with a quota in the NHL, MLB or NFL either (don't follow them really, just gonna start following the NHL a bit after a few years of not watching)
NHL has the most foreigners in American sports right?

Wow. Wonder if this gets an un-Award at the end of the year?

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Keep dreaming.

Really? What country is? Why do you live in CA? That is the problem. Too many people that live here don't deserve to.

D Roses Bulls
10-02-2010, 06:58 PM
Keep dreaming.

how is he dreaming????:confused: it still is the best country in the world. our athletes are the best in the world. people wouldnt be risking their lives everyday still to come here if it wasnt.

D Roses Bulls
10-02-2010, 06:59 PM
You can make all the excuses that you want, but the fact is, it is discriminatory. Europe and other countries try to tell us what to do. We are told how to run our country. We are told how to maintain border security. We are told we are doing things all wrong. The fact is America is the BEST country in the world. We don't do everything right, but we fix our mistakes. Europe is going backwards.

and your right too. let them make the excuses. if it were happening over here, the world would be crying foul

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 07:17 PM
Really? What country is? Why do you live in CA? That is the problem. Too many people that live here don't deserve to.

:eyebrow:

Try Switzerland, Denmark, Canada(yes I said it)... I personally would love to live in the USA but there are better options.

Does that qualify for an un-award as well?

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 07:18 PM
and your right too. let them make the excuses. if it were happening over here, the world would be crying foul



How many high school basketball players are there?
How many college basketball players are there?

and finally, how many NBA players can there be?

Figure that out and you've won yourself an answer

Patman
10-02-2010, 07:21 PM
I really do think the european system is ok and it is needed. There is a fundamental difference between the USA and Europe when it comes to sports. The players in the USA get developed in the educational system. In Europe we rely on the Clubs to develop the players. They have youth programs, basically they start at 6 to 10 with a pro club that has also youth teams for these age categories. Now if a european team just imports American players they don't use their youth programs to get new players. Which in return means the overall quality of players in that country will decline because they do not have the opportunity to get a good basketball education.

The same holds true in nearly every sport in Europe. In my country there is the problem in soccer that many players will go to bigger clubs in Europe if they are good enough. That hurts the quality in our league. If it would be possible to just import as many players as possible that would mean that the clubs wouldn't invest in our youth.

The system is just totally different. It maybe hard to understand for US citizens.

And the USA tries to protect there economics interest more then enough so that argument holds no water. I can basically work in every EU country if a company gives me a job and my country isn't in the EU. But in Sports it's just different because we depend on the development of our youth by the top clubs. Also the interest in the domestic leagues will diminish if there aren't players from that country playing for the Top Teams in that county 8at least for most of the countries that holds true).

Hope this will make sense i don't wan't to attack any US citizens but the system just makes that rules necessary. If you feel that to much international players take away the opportunities of your players then by all means implement a quota.

For Basketball my country (Switzerland) is just a barren land our league is bad and we do not have many quality players. But i don't want to see a league full of foreign players that just wouldn't be interesting.

daleja424
10-02-2010, 07:25 PM
I think it's good teams limit the number, this way players from a certain nationality actually get a chance to play at the highest level in their own country. This will eventually raise the level of basketballplayers coming from those countries. This way some countries will eventually will be able to produce top-level talent players who could compete with the best of the world.

Now why I think the NBA is the exception on this rule, is because it's by pretty far the best league in the world, where you want the best players of the world competing against eachother...

ummmmmm. NO. if you want the quality of basketball to increase then you bring in the best players (no matter nationality) to push the locals to new extremes.

handing jobs to guys that dont deserve them does not increase the level they play at all. taking their job and telling them they have to work their butts off if they want it back does....

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 07:29 PM
We are not talking about actual jobs here. In the USA you see it as a job. In Europe it's mostly a sport.

So these jobs over here exist to accomodate certain needs. Those needs have HOME GROWN as part of them. There's a huge difference between running a league of a mere 30 teams with 15 players each and 30+ domestic leagues with 8-18 teams each.

If you want the quality of basketball to increase, you want the fans to support you. Fans show up only in playoff games most of the times because they cannot get attached to the players. In the 90s you had stadiums full in lots of games and fans loved the players who were there for many years and have bled for that team. It's not a business, it's a passion.

Players love the team and want to repay the fans, fans love the players that put the team's interest in front of everything else. These players are usually those who were fans of the team before becoming professional players... Though of course there are exceptions on both sides ;)

HoopsDrive
10-02-2010, 07:30 PM
you can have that, or you can see how soccer works.

Most popular sport in the world, no doubt for that, no league is really superior to any other from the 3 top ones(England, Spain, Italy) and there are 2-3 other leagues with very good teams. There's just the Champions League which is similar to the Euroleague of basketball. As well as other competitions for lesser teams which exist in all sports in Europe, be it soccer, basketball, volleyball, handball, water polo, anything. Domestic league + cup, 3 tiers of continental competitions. And no complaints

System works while the NBA is just losing interest and also losing fans. The Americans will realise this in 10-15 years when their national team will not be so dominating against the other teams anymore

Nah

Those 3 leagues have only 2-4 teams that can in all reality compete for the trophy. Every year, almost the same story. Brasileirao you have real competition with 3-5 teams competing to the last 3 rounds for the trophy and it isn't rare for the trophy to be decided on the very last round of the season.

As for skill, there's no denying that at the very least the Brasileirao is on par with those 3 leagues, if not above. Internacional beat Barcelona when they met for the FIFA Club World Cup and so did SPFC against Liverpool in 2005. Corinthians and Vasco reached the final in 2000 leaving Real Madrid out of it altogether.

Srry if im straying away from the point of this thread but I just had to say it. The best football league isn't in Europe.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 07:34 PM
Hehe HoopsDrive I'm with you on that one honestly but I was talking purely about Europe ;)

I'd love your opinion on the state championships Brazil-style compared to USA, which I mentioned earlier :)

mjt20mik
10-02-2010, 07:46 PM
Really? What country is? Why do you live in CA? That is the problem. Too many people that live here don't deserve to.

There are so many factors that come into play when determining the world's greatest country.


But for livability, I would say that Denmark, and Switzerland are probably the world's greatest countries.

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 07:48 PM
how is he dreaming????:confused: it still is the best country in the world. our athletes are the best in the world. people wouldnt be risking their lives everyday still to come here if it wasnt.

Thousends of african people dye in the mediteraanean sea every year trying to get to spain, portugl, or italy shore so they can reach europe to get a good living.

best athletes?

id swear teh best tennis player in teh world i s a two man race between a swis ad a spanird.

best cycler in teh world is a spaniard

best soccer team is spain

best formula 1 racer is betwwn two english and one spniard

rally racing it is a french dude

handball world champion is d francešš

volleyball cuba

skate hockey portugal or italy is the best right now i thinkšš


not sure bout last time but cnadians and russians have beaten usa several times in the winter olympcis in hokcey and the general number of medals.

didnnt cihina get the most golds last olympics?



now in serious matters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/


ad last but not least

1 dollar = 0,75 euros

HoopsDrive
10-02-2010, 07:53 PM
Hehe HoopsDrive I'm with you on that one honestly but I was talking purely about Europe ;)

I'd love your opinion on the state championships Brazil-style compared to USA, which I mentioned earlier :)

Just noticed that and I agree, those 3 leagues are the best in Euro but not in the world :D

As for the state championships it could be interesting but it would need more teams to work since the Sao Paulo Championship has like 2 divisions with 20 teams each and the same for Rio de Janeiro, etc.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 07:53 PM
Ron Artest made things spicy on PSD :p

HoopsDrive, of course the aim is to make as many teams as possible. There's a huge pool of potential basketball players in the USA and it all goes to waste because they only want potential millionaires to play

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 07:55 PM
From countrys ive visited.

best to Live to worst to live.

Finaland
Sweden
Holland
Denmark
Germany
Spain
France
Luxembourg
Belgium
Norway
Singapore
switzerland
New Zeland
canada
Italy
japan
australia
austria
Portugal
UK
usa
hungary
czech republic
Poland
Slvakia
turkia
China......if you can put up with communishm
russia
Estonia
venezuela
egypt
mexico
indonesia
thailand
nepal
India

daleja424
10-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Thousends of african people dye in the mediteraanean sea every year trying to get to spain, portugl, or italy shore so they can reach europe to get a good living.

best athletes?

id swear teh best tennis player in teh world i s a two man race between a swis ad a spanird.

best cycler in teh world is a spaniard

best soccer team is spain

best formula 1 racer is betwwn two english and one spniard

rally racing it is a french dude

handball world champion is d francešš

volleyball cuba

skate hockey portugal or italy is the best right now i thinkšš


not sure bout last time but cnadians and russians have beaten usa several times in the winter olympcis in hokcey and the general number of medals.

didnnt cihina get the most golds last olympics?



now in serious matters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/


ad last but not least

1 dollar = 0,75 euros

I think he is talking about real sports. JK JK! :P

but anyways the Olympics are proof that top to bottom the USA proabably has the best athletes in the world....and thats considering that a team of 15 of our best athletes can only win one medal per games...

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Just noticed that and I agree, those 3 leagues are the best in Euro but not in the world :D

As for the state championships it could be interesting but it would need more teams to work since the Sao Paulo Championship has like 2 divisions with 20 teams each and the same for Rio de Janeiro, etc.

you do realize <every really talented brazilian player is playing for an spanish league, english league, french leage, german leavhe, hooland league, or italian league team as asoon as he is 20 years old do you?:p

daleja424
10-02-2010, 08:00 PM
but in all honesty... maybe this speaks to the state of the world that millions of texans can root for a german, millions of Arizonians can root for a Canadian, but european's cant find a way to root for an American...

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 08:01 PM
but in all honesty... maybe this speaks to the state of the world that millions of texans can root for a german, millions of Arizonians can root for a Canadian, but european's cant find a way to root for an American...

jersey sales in europe were released yesterday

1 kobe bryant americanšš2

2 lebron james american

3 pau gasol spain

we dont root for amercians<'<í<'?:confused:

here in spain the most rooted for players in soccer are a portuguese and an argentinian too....

HoopsDrive
10-02-2010, 08:06 PM
you do realize <every really talented brazilian player is playing for an spanish league, english league, french leage, german leavhe, hooland league, or italian league team as asoon as he is 20 years old do you?:p

Sadly it's true... but this only strenghtens my point. The fact that the best Brazilian players are defending Euro teams and Brazilian teams can still beat them when given the chance speaks a lot about the quality of the Brazilian league. If only Brazilian teams had the money pool that those Euro teams had... SPFC would still have Kaka, Luis Fabiano, Julio Baptista and now Hernanes... :(

daleja424
10-02-2010, 08:07 PM
I mean honestly...the NAB celebrates it's diversity and you make it sound like European teams would rather there be no americans at all...

daleja424
10-02-2010, 08:09 PM
jersey sales in europe were released yesterday

1 kobe bryant americanšš2

2 lebron james american

3 pau gasol spain

we dont root for amercians<'<í<'?:confused:

here in spain the most rooted for players in soccer are a portuguese and an argentinian too....

I am referring to European leagues...where the American player is apparently not wanted/appreciated...

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Sadly it's true... but this only strenghtens my point. The fact that the best Brazilian players are defending Euro teams and Brazilian teams can still beat them when given the chance speaks a lot about the quality of the Brazilian league. If only Brazilian teams had the money pool that those Euro teams had... SPFC would still have Kaka, Luis Fabiano, Julio Baptista and now Hernanes... :(

make the "world club cup" a home and away ting and your rearely ever win the thing.

one game everything can happen.

comenbol teams geenrally can allow themsleves more time to prepare the competition whilst euros are in teh imids of the season and they ahve a hard time traveing to japan one or two days earlier .

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 08:11 PM
I am referring to European leagues...where the American player is apparently not wanted/appreciated...

i can tell you that in my city where i lived in my youth, we have a basketball team (breogan lugo) who usually is in the top flight acb league ( not this past 3 years, we were relegated sadly) and the most rooted for players were foreigners, like perasovic or americans like claude riley and mike giomi or tim burroughs.


i have claude rileys autograph in one of my <hs text books.

daleja424
10-02-2010, 08:14 PM
yes, but I am not talking about you Hellcrooner. I am talking about the system in leagues that limit Americans from playing...

HoopsDrive
10-02-2010, 08:15 PM
make the "world club cup" a home and away ting and your rearely ever win the thing.

one game everything can happen.

comenbol teams geenrally can allow themsleves more time to prepare the competition whilst euros are in teh imids of the season and they ahve a hard time traveing to japan one or two days earlier .

I think they actually had this some 40 years ago (Intercontinental Cup). South American teams still beat Euro teams more times... Nacional, Estudiantes, Santos and Boca had amazing teams in those decades and they were able to beat the likes of Man Utd, Real and Milan. I'm not sure what the win count was but I believe that SA teams have beat Euro teams 3 more times in just over 50 years of this competition.

Hellcrooner
10-02-2010, 08:18 PM
I think they actually had this some 40 years ago (Intercontinental Cup). South American teams still beat Euro teams more times... Nacional, Estudiantes, Santos and Boca had amazing teams in those decades and they were able to beat the likes of Man Utd, Real and Milan. I'm not sure what the win count was but I believe that SA teams have beat Euro teams 3 more times in just over 50 years of this competition.

well the level of serioness taken on teh thing is different

it means a ilot in suramerican and nto so much in europe

fact bayern for example didnt want to pla it in 70 somethign and runner up atletico wa s sent to teh competition

Brooklyn Mets
10-02-2010, 08:18 PM
haha Ron Artest playing tight end in the NFL AFTER his NBA career is over

WestCoastPhan
10-02-2010, 08:19 PM
It's not our fault guys that couldn't make it in the NBA or even the D-league are starters on Euro teams.

I can't be the only one that thinks it's wrong to discriminate like this, and yet us Americans will generally accept it, but could you imagine the reaction out of europe if there was a cap put on the number of foreign players an NBA team can sign?

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 08:22 PM
I mean honestly...the NAB celebrates it's diversity and you make it sound like European teams would rather there be no americans at all...


On the contrary.

We want great American players in our teams, but not mediocre foreigners, be them American or from any other country. Because if we can only afford mediocre players to complete the roster, we'll go for the home product ;)

That's what people here fail to see, which is what Artest failed to understand.

Europe is not NBA's development league and never will be. Lots of players will want to try a new experience, but Europe is not preparing players for the NBA. It's even a totally different game.

I'm pretty sure that the already established American players would cause lots of trouble to an American team in a European game (FIBA rules)

There are lots of Americans over here like Mike Batiste, Drew Nicholas, Terrell McIntyre, David Logan, Trajan Langdon, JR Holden etc who could make it in the NBA but preferred to stay in Europe.
Some got dual citizenships to play for other national teams. I'm pretty sure that pissed off many locals, but some liked the fact that better players would represent their countries since they wanted to (Holden & Logan for example)

HoopsDrive
10-02-2010, 08:22 PM
well the level of serioness taken on teh thing is different

it means a ilot in suramerican and nto so much in europe

fact bayern for example didnt want to pla it in 70 somethign and runner up atletico wa s sent to teh competition

True not every team takes it as serious as SA teams... not sure why though. Although Gerrard looked like he was gonna cry in the end of the match in 2005 and Baresi looked very mad in 1993 :D

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 08:24 PM
but could you imagine the reaction out of europe if there was a cap put on the number of foreign players an NBA team can sign?


Americans would make a bigger deal out of it than the rest of the world really... It's something new to you but not to us

WestCoastPhan
10-02-2010, 08:29 PM
Americans would make a bigger deal out of it than the rest of the world really... It's something new to you but not to us

you genuinely believe that? So far it's just been Ron Artest speaking up, but wouldn't you agree Europeans would be way more upset if NBA teams had to send all of their European players packing except for two if we enacted a rule like this one?

It's not like euro team owners are forced to sign American players, they want to win just like we do in the NBA, and we take the best players regardless of nationality.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Europeans would actually love to have their players back :)

The owners here want to WIN no matter what. The owners of my team lose $15m of their own money every year just to make that happen.
The owners in the NBA want to have a good turnover first, and there are some that want to win as well. If the Clippers, Timberwolves, Knicks( :( ) and other teams' owners were interested in winning they would do something about it. And the way the NBA is, the owners play a small part. In Europe they can just buy any player they can afford any time and change the situation. In the NBA it's all complicated

D Roses Bulls
10-02-2010, 08:41 PM
Thousends of african people dye in the mediteraanean sea every year trying to get to spain, portugl, or italy shore so they can reach europe to get a good living.

best athletes?

id swear teh best tennis player in teh world i s a two man race between a swis ad a spanird.

best cycler in teh world is a spaniard

best soccer team is spain

best formula 1 racer is betwwn two english and one spniard

rally racing it is a french dude

handball world champion is d francešš

volleyball cuba

skate hockey portugal or italy is the best right now i thinkšš


not sure bout last time but cnadians and russians have beaten usa several times in the winter olympcis in hokcey and the general number of medals.

didnnt cihina get the most golds last olympics?



now in serious matters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/


ad last but not least

1 dollar = 0,75 euros

Here are some sport the u.s. dominates in

basketball
womens tennis
womens softball
track both men and women
golf
womens hockey
wrestling
boxing
for example..... if you want more just google it cause we dominate a lot and on a poll the top 5 athletes in the world are all american as well. and yeah china won the most medals in a olympics that was played in their home country by not that much at all, but the U.S. had more golds then anyone.

oh and for the fact that the united states influences the entire world with our culture, music, movies, and life styles and we are only one of 2-3 super powers and the most powerful out of all of those. oh and dont even get me started on the euro. you guys let banks dictate your currency over there and isnt the euro the problem for why so many european countries right now are facing bankruptcy or are in it now? how many people flee to spain compared to the U.S. every year? no where near as many and also and I hate to get into this but it makes me so mad how every other damn country is so jealous of our way of life over here but if it wasnt for us all you guys would be speaking german right now. please dont even get me started on this.

mjt20mik
10-02-2010, 09:01 PM
oh and for the fact that the united states influences the entire world with our culture, music, movies, and life styles and we are only one of 2-3 super powers and the most powerful out of all of those. oh and dont even get me started on the euro. you guys let banks dictate your currency over there and isnt the euro the problem for why so many european countries right now are facing bankruptcy or are in it now? how many people flee to spain compared to the U.S. every year? no where near as many and also and I hate to get into this but it makes me so mad how every other damn country is so jealous of our way of life over here but if it wasnt for us all you guys would be speaking german right now. please dont even get me started on this.

I'm Canadian and I speak German. But thanks for trying :p .

And I think RonRon does have a point. However, I don't think it matters too much. If you want to be known as a great basketball player, you work towards the NBA. Not saying the other leagues aren't great, it's just that the media portrays the NBA as the world's best league.

Heater4life
10-02-2010, 09:03 PM
you genuinely believe that? So far it's just been Ron Artest speaking up, but wouldn't you agree Europeans would be way more upset if NBA teams had to send all of their European players packing except for two if we enacted a rule like this one?

It's not like euro team owners are forced to sign American players, they want to win just like we do in the NBA, and we take the best players regardless of nationality.

What?!?!? We live in the US, where we care more about meaningless garbage than anywhere else. Just like the Beijing Olympics; the spanish team takes a picture with squinted eyes as a funny tribute to china and were the only country that cries "RACISM!!!" and "OUTRAGE!!!". No one else, including China, cared about the picture.

Point being, Ron's an idiot and this topic will only be talked and cared about here. Only for the topic to die in a week.

Heater4life
10-02-2010, 09:10 PM
oh and for the fact that the united states influences the entire world with our culture, music, movies, and life styles and we are only one of 2-3 super powers and the most powerful out of all of those. oh and dont even get me started on the euro. you guys let banks dictate your currency over there and isnt the euro the problem for why so many european countries right now are facing bankruptcy or are in it now? how many people flee to spain compared to the U.S. every year? no where near as many and also and I hate to get into this but it makes me so mad how every other damn country is so jealous of our way of life over here but if it wasnt for us all you guys would be speaking german right now. please dont even get me started on this.

You are the sole reason why every other country HATES the United States. Not only do we have THE LOWEST educational standards out of any 1st world country (evident by your ignorance). But your arrogant "everyone wants to be us" and "were the best" attitude is what isolates from the world. (you should try traveling the world and experiencing new cultures)

I am proud to be an American, but I am by no means proud of America. We have lowered our standards and become a rude, uneducated, emotionally sensitive nation. I only hope we can change the in the future.

mjt20mik
10-02-2010, 09:14 PM
You are the sole reason why every other country HATES the United States. Not only do we have THE LOWEST educational standards out of any 1st world country (evident by your ignorance). But your arrogant "everyone wants to be us" and "were the best" attitude is what isolates from the world. (you should try traveling the world and experiencing new cultures)

I am proud to be an American, but I am by no means proud of America. We have lowered our standards and become a rude, uneducated, emotionally sensitive nation. I only hope we can change the in the future.

x100 Reputation for that post.

Heater4life
10-02-2010, 09:20 PM
x100 Reputation for that post.

It was my pleasure. thank you

StrandedCub
10-02-2010, 09:37 PM
From countrys ive visited.

best to Live to worst to live.

Finaland
Sweden
Holland
Denmark
Germany
Spain
France
Luxembourg
Belgium
Norway
Singapore
switzerland
New Zeland
canada
Italy
japan
australia
austria
Portugal
UK
usa
hungary
czech republic
Poland
Slvakia
turkia
China......if you can put up with communishm
russia
Estonia
venezuela
egypt
mexico
indonesia
thailand
nepal
India

I think there is one huge thing you are missing here though. The US is waaaay different then most other countries in the world and specifically Europe.

Size comparison is way different, Austria is about the size of Maine. France is smaller than Texas but a bit bigger than California. What I am saying is, each state is about the size of each country in Europe. And each state you live in is often very different then other states. New York and California are completely different. Northern Chicago and southern Chicago are completely different. If you move from Boston, MA to Dallas, TX then you may feel like your in an entire different country.

I can't comment on other countries but I feel like most European countries don't quite have these drastic differences depending on where you live in the country. Obviously, there are differences if you live in northern or southern Germany but is it as different as living on opposite sides of the US?

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 09:39 PM
You guys are arguing about sports or this or that being why America is the greatest country on the earth. The fact is, America IS the greatest country on the earth because we have the most liberty. We have personal liberties, religious liberties, social liberties, and especially economic liberty. With that comes a lot of responsibility. We are great because of the liberty we have. Over the past few years we have given up liberty and became irresponsible. We still have the majority of that liberty, and that is why we are the GREATEST.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 09:43 PM
I can't comment on other countries but I feel like most European countries don't quite have these drastic differences depending on where you live in the country. Obviously, there are differences if you live in northern or southern Germany but is it as different as living on opposite sides of the US?


agree with all but this

Northern and southern Germany are quite different
Northern and southern Italy have little similarities
Spain is one messed up country with Castellans, Andalucians, Catalans, Basques etc each feeling different from eachother

Greece, a country of 12m people has 4000 different dialects. Similar thing applies to Italy

You don't see that in the USA (why is this even an NBA discussion? :) )

mjt20mik
10-02-2010, 09:44 PM
You guys are arguing about sports or this or that being why America is the greatest country on the earth. The fact is, America IS the greatest country on the earth because we have the most liberty. We have personal liberties, religious liberties, social liberties, and especially economic liberty. With that comes a lot of responsibility. We are great because of the liberty we have. Over the past few years we have given up liberty and became irresponsible. We still have the majority of that liberty, and that is why we are the GREATEST.

I just don't know how to respond to that, without causing a stir. I think this thread should be closed to be honest. Otherwise this post is going to start up a lot of criticism.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 09:44 PM
or we could just ignore it ;)

mjt20mik
10-02-2010, 09:46 PM
or we could just ignore it ;)

That seems feasible. :)

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 09:47 PM
Fact is, if Americans closed the NBA to Americans, we would be branded racist like when the US tries to limit who comes into the country.

StrandedCub
10-02-2010, 09:48 PM
You are the sole reason why every other country HATES the United States. Not only do we have THE LOWEST educational standards out of any 1st world country (evident by your ignorance). But your arrogant "everyone wants to be us" and "were the best" attitude is what isolates from the world. (you should try traveling the world and experiencing new cultures)

I am proud to be an American, but I am by no means proud of America. We have lowered our standards and become a rude, uneducated, emotionally sensitive nation. I only hope we can change the in the future.

I agree with you that when people talk like that it makes us look really bad. However, I don't find anything wrong with believing the we are the best country in the world. You can be self-confident without being rude. I do believe we are the best country in the world, however, there are many many things that we could learn from other countries and vice versa.

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 09:50 PM
You guys are arguing about sports or this or that being why America is the greatest country on the earth. The fact is, America IS the greatest country on the earth because we have the most liberty. We have personal liberties, religious liberties, social liberties, and especially economic liberty. With that comes a lot of responsibility. We are great because of the liberty we have. Over the past few years we have given up liberty and became irresponsible. We still have the majority of that liberty, and that is why we are the GREATEST.

godolphins
10-02-2010, 09:54 PM
True, you can't have a one way road.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 09:54 PM
why are you repeating yourself?

Heater4life
10-02-2010, 09:57 PM
I agree with you that when people talk like that it makes us look really bad. However, I don't find anything wrong with believing the we are the best country in the world. You can be self-confident without being rude. I do believe we are the best country in the world, however, there are many many things that we could learn from other countries and vice versa.

It makes Americans look classless, ignorant, and uneducated; which imo is as bad as a slap to the face (because im American). I love my country and i feel were very well rounded, but i wouldnt call us the best nor relagate any other culture to garbage......

i just thought his post was disgusting.....................lets move on.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 10:01 PM
Fact is, if Americans closed the NBA to Americans, we would be branded racist like when the US tries to limit who comes into the country.

USA government has the right to refuse entrance (visa) to any non-American. Isn't that racist as well? Why can't some people go to the USA?

The USA already "limits who comes into the country" :facepalm:

and that's how it should be done imo. I'm not American so they have the right to tell me I'm not welcome. If I want to get an American's job I have to earn it, I have to be better than him. If not, then the American has to get the job. It's his taxpaying money that runs the country after all...

Heater4life
10-02-2010, 10:08 PM
USA government has the right to refuse entrance (visa) to any non-American. Isn't that racist as well? Why can't some people go to the USA?

The USA already "limits who comes into the country" :facepalm:

and that's how it should be done imo. I'm not American so they have the right to tell me I'm not welcome. If I want to get an American's job I have to earn it, I have to be better than him. If not, then the American has to get the job. It's his taxpaying money that runs the country after all...

:clap:

Only us Americans would label that situation as being "racist". :facepalm:

StrandedCub
10-02-2010, 10:13 PM
USA government has the right to refuse entrance (visa) to any non-American. Isn't that racist as well? Why can't some people go to the USA?

The USA already "limits who comes into the country" :facepalm:

and that's how it should be done imo. I'm not American so they have the right to tell me I'm not welcome. If I want to get an American's job I have to earn it, I have to be better than him. If not, then the American has to get the job. It's his taxpaying money that runs the country after all...

I do understand what you are saying, but what he is saying is true as well. If the US banned non-Americans from playing in a major sport like the NBA, then we would get tons of **** from the rest of the world. We would get more of this "Arrogant, ignorant, dumb Americans think they are better than anybody else."

We deserve much of the crap we get, but in some cases we get crap for who we are instead of what we actually did. This would be an instance where we would be criticized harshly around the world.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 10:18 PM
We deserve much of the crap we get, but in some cases we get crap for who we are instead of what we actually did. This would be an instance where we would be criticized harshly around the world.

Yes that happens a lot. There's no love for Americans around the world. Mostly because you had George W Bush as president imo. People around the world were :facepalm: the 2nd time you elected him really :p

COOLbeans
10-02-2010, 10:20 PM
wise words from a wise man. (Ron Artest) ;)

lakers4sho
10-02-2010, 10:27 PM
Really? What country is? Why do you live in CA? That is the problem. Too many people that live here don't deserve to.

Heh you're gonna kick me out because I have negative things to say about this country?

Take a look outside.

NYKalltheway
10-02-2010, 10:29 PM
Heh you're gonna kick me out because I have negative things to say about this country?

Take a look outside.

coming from the guy who preaches USA=liberty as well

lakers4sho
10-02-2010, 10:33 PM
coming from the guy who preaches USA=liberty as well

I don't want to make this a political thread, so I'll just stop :p

StrandedCub
10-02-2010, 10:38 PM
Yes that happens a lot. There's no love for Americans around the world. Mostly because you had George W Bush as president imo. People around the world were :facepalm: the 2nd time you elected him really :p

Haha Yeah I was :facepalm: the 2nd time around too. Is Obama viewed much better around the world? I know he gets tons of **** here in the states. Some deserved, some not so much.

Btw, I'm not trying to make this into a political discussion of any kind, just curious. NBA stands for National Basketball Association ((Figure I need some kind of basketball reference to appease the MODs)

pistonsfanomg
10-02-2010, 10:45 PM
the problem is, that in most leagues in europe, us-players would be better than the players from that country.

if there weren't any restrictions, that would create two major problems:
firstly, the teams who can afford it financially would absolutely destroy the others. there are no salary caps in european leagues, so financial differences can not be regulated...

secondly, if more americans were allowed, the players from the own country wouldn't get any playing time and could not develop. part of the good national teams some european nations have developed would not be existent if those players wouldn't have gotten playing time in their respective leagues.


the usa doesn't need such a system because their players are better than most foreigners anyway... i'm sure if the us-players were worse in the future than most international players, the nba would think about such restrictions too...


I am from Austria, and contrary to what the article says, there is a restriction on non-EU-players here. Last season, seven "foreigners" were allowed. There was one team - the one with the most money - that had seven american players, and that was their rotation. they had a very solid Austrian Point Guard, who happens to be on the national team and he got virtually no playing time last season because the americans were better than him. So even though there is a restriction, our young talents get no PT because they are stuck behind americans. Thats why our league reduced the foreign players for the upcoming season from seven to six.

Maybe it's clearer now for Americans why we need those restrictions in Europe.

Actually, the NBA should be glad that it is that way. Maybe there wouldn't be a Dirk Nowitzki or a Pau Gasol today if American players weren't limited in Europe.

Good Job!

utahjazzno12fan
10-02-2010, 10:58 PM
Heh you're gonna kick me out because I have negative things to say about this country?

Take a look outside.

Never said I would kick you out. You have the freedom of speech, you just don't deserve it if you are willing to say the US is not the best country. You would trade your liberty for something else, apparently if you believe other countries are better. That is what Benjamin Franklin said.

iFYouSeekAmy
10-02-2010, 11:30 PM
If it weren't for the Constitution, specifically the Bill of rights, I wouldn't be living here.

footballer2369
10-02-2010, 11:54 PM
This is SO emotional!1!111!!!!1111111!!!11

D Roses Bulls
10-03-2010, 12:28 AM
You are the sole reason why every other country HATES the United States. Not only do we have THE LOWEST educational standards out of any 1st world country (evident by your ignorance). But your arrogant "everyone wants to be us" and "were the best" attitude is what isolates from the world. (you should try traveling the world and experiencing new cultures)

I am proud to be an American, but I am by no means proud of America. We have lowered our standards and become a rude, uneducated, emotionally sensitive nation. I only hope we can change the in the future.

it figures another Miami fan is attacking another bulls fan. I swear we get rid of the bad ones and other bad ones just pop up. First of all, ignorance has nothing to do with education. So no its statements like that makes us look stupid. Second, I know the problems that this country has, but I dont sit here and bad mouth my country to others who are not from this country. maybe you are alright by that, but thats like hugo chavez coming to new york and talking crap about bush like he did in 2007. yea bush was an idiot but you dont let some outsider talk crap about the country you live in. and for your info, i have been to asia and europe and like ive said to many others i would still live no other place and because no matter what is going on here, you still have more freedom, more rights, then you do in any other country. and go into the political section of this forum sometimes, i put this government down more then anything, but i still love my country. and to even try and defend what he is saying shows you really dont love your country.

lakers4sho
10-03-2010, 01:03 AM
Never said I would kick you out. You have the freedom of speech, you just don't deserve it if you are willing to say the US is not the best country. You would trade your liberty for something else, apparently if you believe other countries are better. That is what Benjamin Franklin said.

What? Just because I think some other country is better means that I don't deserve liberty?

What kind of a faulty logic is that?

mjt20mik
10-03-2010, 01:05 AM
it figures another Miami fan is attacking another bulls fan. I swear we get rid of the bad ones and other bad ones just pop up. First of all, ignorance has nothing to do with education. So no its statements like that makes us look stupid. Second, I know the problems that this country has, but I dont sit here and bad mouth my country to others who are not from this country. maybe you are alright by that, but thats like hugo chavez coming to new york and talking crap about bush like he did in 2007. yea bush was an idiot but you dont let some outsider talk crap about the country you live in. and for your info, i have been to asia and europe and like ive said to many others i would still live no other place and because no matter what is going on here, you still have more freedom, more rights, then you do in any other country. and go into the political section of this forum sometimes, i put this government down more then anything, but i still love my country. and to even try and defend what he is saying shows you really dont love your country.

I have a lot of freedom here in Canada. Yet I don't state that I have more rights and freedom than I would have in the states.

Hindy27
10-03-2010, 06:10 AM
You are the sole reason why every other country HATES the United States. Not only do we have THE LOWEST educational standards out of any 1st world country (evident by your ignorance). But your arrogant "everyone wants to be us" and "were the best" attitude is what isolates from the world. (you should try traveling the world and experiencing new cultures)

I am proud to be an American, but I am by no means proud of America. We have lowered our standards and become a rude, uneducated, emotionally sensitive nation. I only hope we can change the in the future.
:clap: Good post.
The arrogance of some Americans is what rubs the rest of the world the wrong way, and sadly the decent Americans get lumped into the same box because of it.
It's also mostly the Americans that have never visited another country that beat their chest about being the best country in the world and talk about their freedom, liberty etc.
I gather they are only thinking of places like China and North Korea when making the comparison because most countries have very similar freedom, maybe even more.

Then to talk about culture, that's hilarious. The majority here can't stand the American influence and culture. The first thing that springs to mind is idiots walking around with pants 5 sizes to big, so everyone can see their underwear, the dumbest trend to ever pop up. They have to walk like they've just stepped off a horse to stop the things falling below their knees. A lot of them even have a belt sitting there for decoration.:D
I always laugh when walking past one of these clowns.

America itself is a beautiful looking place, amazingly great scenery, rich in diversity.

I love how 'we dominate sports' seems to be the main reason for some to think the country is the best. Half the sports listed no one cares about, I mean wrestling really? women's hockey? I thought Australia, Netherlands, India and Germany were the best women's hockey teams.

Anyway, the sheer weight of numbers gets the US over line in a lot of sports, you have more than 10 times our population. That's why US, China and Russia(especially when the old Soviet Union was in effect) dominate the Olympics, just so many people. Australia is a great sporting nation, we do well in several sports, I wouldn't for 1 second use that as a reason for our country being the BEST on the planet, because it'd be dumb.


You guys are arguing about sports or this or that being why America is the greatest country on the earth. The fact is, America IS the greatest country on the earth because we have the most liberty. We have personal liberties, religious liberties, social liberties, and especially economic liberty. With that comes a lot of responsibility. We are great because of the liberty we have. Over the past few years we have given up liberty and became irresponsible. We still have the majority of that liberty, and that is why we are the GREATEST.

A perfect example of why the US is hated around the world, just plain arrogance. Most 1st world countries enjoy the same or even more freedom, the US doesn't have a copyright on freedom or being free.
Even when US news shows talk about terrorism they use the old "they hate freedom" or "they hate our freedom" excuse. No, they hate the way the US treats them, either through backing certain countries in certain conflicts, which they will indirectly benefit from, or using their power in the UN to sanction countries for doing the exact same stuff that the US and it's 'friends' do.

If we had a planet survivor style vote where every person from every country voted for one of the other countries to leave the planet, I would bet everything I have that the US would be voted off first.:p

As for the actual topic...
If the NBA got to the point where 80% or more of the players were international players and the draft was getting similar numbers, Stern would start up a quota system as well.
Football(soccer) is the biggest sport in the world and several countries do the same thing.

o0jmadr0x0o
10-03-2010, 07:21 AM
did everyone forget that artest is a nut......

TheWatcher34
10-03-2010, 07:57 AM
here are some sport the u.s. Dominates in


oh and for the fact that the united states influences the entire world with our culture, music, movies, and life styles and we are only one of 2-3 super powers and the most powerful out of all of those. Oh and dont even get me started on the euro. You guys let banks dictate your currency over there and isnt the euro the problem for why so many european countries right now are facing bankruptcy or are in it now? How many people flee to spain compared to the u.s. Every year? No where near as many and also and i hate to get into this but it makes me so mad how every other damn country is so jealous of our way of life over here but if it wasnt for us all you guys would be speaking german right now. Please dont even get me started on this.

:9/11:

Hellcrooner
10-03-2010, 08:00 AM
You guys are arguing about sports or this or that being why America is the greatest country on the earth. The fact is, America IS the greatest country on the earth because we have the most liberty. We have personal liberties, religious liberties, social liberties, and especially economic liberty. With that comes a lot of responsibility. We are great because of the liberty we have. Over the past few years we have given up liberty and became irresponsible. We still have the majority of that liberty, and that is why we are the GREATEST.

mos liberty?

really?

can you travel to cuba withouth having to go to a third country fitrst?

can you affiliate to a Communist party ?

here in euroe pe yuou can.

Hellcrooner
10-03-2010, 08:02 AM
I think there is one huge thing you are missing here though. The US is waaaay different then most other countries in the world and specifically Europe.

Size comparison is way different, Austria is about the size of Maine. France is smaller than Texas but a bit bigger than California. What I am saying is, each state is about the size of each country in Europe. And each state you live in is often very different then other states. New York and California are completely different. Northern Chicago and southern Chicago are completely different. If you move from Boston, MA to Dallas, TX then you may feel like your in an entire different country.

I can't comment on other countries but I feel like most European countries don't quite have these drastic differences depending on where you live in the country. Obviously, there are differences if you live in northern or southern Germany but is it as different as living on opposite sides of the US?

differences between parts of the countrys in seurope can be very high, in teh case yoiu mentioned Germany teh diference of qulity living in between tha part that kept being capitalist and tha part that was commie until 1989 is abismal.

oh and btw ive been in a aLARGE portion of usa .
Took a plane to NY drove to SF then Drove down to L.A then drove east to Miami and up to Ny again.

so i think i got to see a large part of it ( ive been to L.A and Ny more than once since).

Hellcrooner
10-03-2010, 08:08 AM
I have a lot of freedom here in Canada. Yet I don't state that I have more rights and freedom than I would have in the states.

oh but you canadian HAVE more rights, here in euroep we also have more rights.

we have the right to not die in the street as a dog from an ilness because we cant pay the bill on a private hospital or afford a expensive insurance taht would suddenly find some caus eof inegilibility ( after years paying it) if you needed an expensive treatment.

ryder78c
10-03-2010, 08:12 AM
i agree with ron but i also disagree if euro leagues are able to draft americans like we draft euro players then i think they should let more americans play but they get most of the u.s. second rate nba players not topped ranked players or they get players at the end of there careers, like another guy said they dont wanna be the US's D league

The USA is a very diverse country thats why there's so many different cultures in the NBA!

ryder78c
10-03-2010, 08:27 AM
oh but you canadian HAVE more rights, here in euroep we also have more rights.

we have the right to not die in the street as a dog from an ilness because we cant pay the bill on a private hospital or afford a expensive insurance taht would suddenly find some caus eof inegilibility ( after years paying it) if you needed an expensive treatment.

gotta agree with you on that there are some things you can do but theres alot you cant thats why americans try to get health care in canada

i would like euro leagues to except more americans but they dont wanna and i got no problem with that..PS ron america is diverse thats why the NBA is we except every form of race and the nba is about if you can BALL good! you got a chance so dont complain or go punch anybody hahaaaaa

utahjazzno12fan
10-03-2010, 08:42 AM
Nope. Not a single country has more liberty or as much. No country has as much liberty as the US. No country has as much economic liberty. No country has as defined liberties as we do. Some countries have a lot of liberty, but not as much. We are the most republican form of government where liberty triumphs the will of the majority.

NYKalltheway
10-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Nope. Not a single country has more liberty or as much. No country has as much liberty as the US. No country has as much economic liberty. No country has as defined liberties as we do. Some countries have a lot of liberty, but not as much. We are the most republican form of government where liberty triumphs the will of the majority.

Yep

You get to vote for either right wing or...right wing :facepalm:

google Switzerland and Denmark to start with...

TheWatcher34
10-03-2010, 09:03 AM
Nope. Not a single country has more liberty or as much. No country has as much liberty as the US. No country has as much economic liberty. No country has as defined liberties as we do. Some countries have a lot of liberty, but not as much. We are the most republican form of government where liberty triumphs the will of the majority.

threre are not a lot of western countries/nations where u get arrested as easily and quickly as in the U.S. you get arrested for nothing.

individual liberty mean nothing in America. If you have money, you do have more liberty than others.

America has defined liberty? and you actually believe what politicians tell you...

liberty to you must be: to purchase a gun. (sadly enough, otherwise you wouldn't feel safe)

utahjazzno12fan
10-03-2010, 02:13 PM
Liberty is freedom from restriction or control. It has nothing with what government does for you. Sure, there are freedoms that we should have that we don't, but as a group of the different areas of liberty goes, we have the most. Taxes are anti-liberty. We have low taxes in the grand scheme. We have freedom to travel throughout. We have freedom of religious expression. We have freedom to print things against government figures. We have a right to protect ourselves. We have freedom of association. The European above mentioned something about being part of the Communist Party. I am a member of the Republican Party. I have been affiliated with the Constitution Party. I have been described as a libertarian. I have worked to get third parties better ballot access in my state.

In the US, we do have a Communist Party. We have socialist parties. We have Nazi parties. I am of Jewish ancestry. I believe it is needed that we allow even Nazis a voice, but they cannot take away my liberties.

In many countries, you do not have economic liberty. Ours in America is even limited. We are unable to trade with countries our government deems as enemies. In most cases, however, we do not have to worry about the government telling us that legal immigrants or workers cannot work in a certain area as in Europe.

In the US, we have academic freedom. In many European countries, you do not have the freedom as a professor or teacher to take stances on issues. The government in the US has attempted to do this, but the courts have upheld academic freedom. For example, I am a public school teacher and a political blogger.

The US has civil liberties. These have been eroding since 9/11, but they are protected. We need to fight to protect them and get them back. In Canada, there is no protection from an establishment of a state religion. There is also no real protection of private property as there is in the US. Any country that has socialist trends, by the very definition have government interaction and loss of civil liberties.

Those are just a few liberties that we have, compared to the world.

utahjazzno12fan
10-03-2010, 02:19 PM
I am done with this. It seems off topic, but the fact is, in the US we don't do this. The Euro league will always be secondary to the NBA as long as they limit who can play. I guess it all has to do with what the direction that you want for your league. They seemingly want it to be a warm-up for national teams. The NBA is a capitalist idea about creating the best product available. And, the US still has the best international team when the best of our best play. The problem is, we don't get that usually. Back in the 90's we had the Dream Team. They were the best. People wanted to show patriotism. Now, patriotism is mostly an international idea. The care more for their country than our players do.

Jenceman
10-03-2010, 02:40 PM
Bahahaah yay for defending blatant discrimination guys.

lakers4sho
10-03-2010, 02:46 PM
Nope. Not a single country has more liberty or as much. No country has as much liberty as the US. No country has as much economic liberty. No country has as defined liberties as we do. Some countries have a lot of liberty, but not as much. We are the most republican form of government where liberty triumphs the will of the majority.

Patriot Act

:9/11:

:rolleyes:

NYKalltheway
10-03-2010, 02:50 PM
The Euroleague has no restrictions on foreigners....

Hellcrooner
10-03-2010, 03:09 PM
I am done with this. It seems off topic, but the fact is, in the US we don't do this. The Euro league will always be secondary to the NBA as long as they limit who can play. I guess it all has to do with what the direction that you want for your league. They seemingly want it to be a warm-up for national teams. The NBA is a capitalist idea about creating the best product available. And, the US still has the best international team when the best of our best play. The problem is, we don't get that usually. Back in the 90's we had the Dream Team. They were the best. People wanted to show patriotism. Now, patriotism is mostly an international idea. The care more for their country than our players do. Cpa space....maximum salarys.....draft.....matching salarys on trades---.......... sharing of benefits between the teams.

nba CANT BE MORE COMMUNIST

And you didnt need to declare that you were a republican.
It was pretty obvious.

utahjazzno12fan
10-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Because I love America? Because I think that America is the best? You can tell I didn't vote for Obama based on what I am saying? Can you tell that I didn't vote McCain, either?

And the comment about the Patriot Act, I addressed that when I discussed civil liberties. Hope everyone has a great day! I know I am since my Bravos are in the lead.

TheWatcher34
10-03-2010, 04:33 PM
jazzfan on the prvious page u were bragging about the educational liberty in the U.S...i dont see it!! there's hardly any country where it depends soo much on $$$ wether you will visit and good or a bad college. where is that liberty and equality for education??? of course there are many scolarships handed out, but you have to be a proven genius in order to attend a really good school when you simply don't have the money to pay for it. it's usually the social class that you were raised in will be the social class where u will end up later. there are exceptions but those are rare. with no room to move, where's the liberty of education??
u mentioned the liberty of low taxes?? i'd rather have high taxes along with a good health care system.
i am not saying my country is better than any other country, but i am really glad about the fact that my country is not constantly involved in a war. when you guys don't initiate a war, but someone else does, you can bet that the U.S. jump right on it!!
someone has to fire away all these hundreds of billions of dollars invested in the U.S. army every year, instead of spending it with reasonable benefit for their own population (education for instance), right??

in terms of basketball it's like that: the U.S. is the best in basketball worldwide. hands down.
the reason is: sports is much more supported in high schools and universities than it is in europe or any other continent. if you're good in sports (baseball, basketball, football, hockey) and you belong to the elite, you get a scholarship to enter a good college. u could be dumb as **** but as long as you're an elite prospect, you do what you do and it will be sufficient. the competition is there, but you dont have to be a grade B+ student in other courses because nobody expects you to. many guys go to school simply for the reason because they want to play basketball there.

in europe there's no such good offer of sports in schools. if you want to be good, you must join the local club, pay the money to be a member, play in the league with local, state wide or nationwide attention and so on. if you want to be educated aswell, it's something that you have to do aside from the gym. therfore, education is cheaper and there are innumerable good state universities that offer you everything you want.

i think it's a question of opportunity. in europe you will get the degree you want, so this comes first and basketball is second. and with basketball you usually will not end up with a contract anywhere as lucrative as in the u.S. that why people prefer to be sure on the education first.

utahjazzno12fan
10-03-2010, 05:54 PM
Educational liberty has to do with the liberty educators have. I, as an educator, have freedoms to take stands. Also, anyone has the opportunity to seek education. It has nothing to do with affording, etc. I went through a private college that costs $13000 per year on loans.

Some countries do not allow freedom of going to college. Most do not allow teachers to take controversial stands. I have and do.

Hellcrooner
10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Educational liberty has to do with the liberty educators have. I, as an educator, have freedoms to take stands. Also, anyone has the opportunity to seek education. It has nothing to do with affording, etc. I went through a private college that costs $13000 per year on loans.

Some countries do not allow freedom of going to college. Most do not allow teachers to take controversial stands. I have and do.

id swear there are several states where it isnt allowed to tteach darwing theorys....

here in spain teachers have "cathedra libre" they can teach whatever they want.

i can go out and burn an spanish flag and wont be taken to jail for "antispanish conduct"

btw i can say ****, ****, mother****er or **** in national tv withouth a noise bleeping, can you?

gay couples can get married and have equal rights than normal couples.

ho wmany states have aproved that┐

NYKalltheway
10-03-2010, 08:49 PM
utahjazz fan, if you are an educator, you probably are yourself the answer to why America is hated around the world and why there are stereotypes of Americans being ignorant.

Very good post by TheWatcher34 ;)

lakers4sho
10-03-2010, 08:53 PM
Educational liberty has to do with the liberty educators have. I, as an educator, have freedoms to take stands. Also, anyone has the opportunity to seek education. It has nothing to do with affording, etc. I went through a private college that costs $13000 per year on loans.

Some countries do not allow freedom of going to college. Most do not allow teachers to take controversial stands. I have and do.

And that is why the DREAM Act has been consistently shot down.

I hate to turn this into a political thread, as I have stated before, but god some of the statements here are just plain absurd.

Enough with the bickering, let's get back on topic.

lakers4sho
10-03-2010, 08:57 PM
If we want the "rest of the world" to catch up with American basketball, I think the quota system would be the best solution, for now. I usually condemn such limits but in this case I'm for the development and progress of basketball in other countries.

Once the rest of the world has caught up, then we can get rid of them.

dc5jdm
10-04-2010, 02:29 AM
with all respect europeans come up wit some crazy ideas/rules. I honestly dont like the way they run their system in sports specially soccer(futbol).

Hindy27
10-04-2010, 02:54 AM
Cpa space....maximum salarys.....draft.....matching salarys on trades---.......... sharing of benefits between the teams.

nba CANT BE MORE COMMUNIST

And you didnt need to declare that you were a republican.
It was pretty obvious.
This.
The draft and salary cap is a restraint of trade.

We tried a draft in our Rugby League comp and it got thrown out after 1 go. 1 man challenged it and the courts ruled it was a restraint of trade. We have a salary cap as well, but it hasn't been challenged as everyone in the game knows that it is good for the game, we don't the comp to end up like EPL where you have a select few dominate every year.
Really in a 'free' world John Wall would've signed with the highest bidder or just went to the team that he wanted to go to.

Although we don't have a max salary like the NBA, if that came in it would definitely get challenged. The salary cap stops teams from going broke and keeps the competition fairly even, but you shouldn't be limiting players' personal salaries.
If a team wants to spread out their money between all players and build a well balanced team good on them, but a team should also be able to throw half their cap at a player and fill out the squad with scrubs if they want to as well.
It would also make the FA period a bit more interesting, I'm sure LBJ didn't mind taking a small paycut to play with Wade and Bosh, but he would've had a bigger 'decision' to make if he had an offer of $30mil+ from the Clippers.


Great post by TheWatcher34. :clap:

GeneWaldron#5
10-04-2010, 09:27 AM
If we want the "rest of the world" to catch up with American basketball, I think the quota system would be the best solution, for now. I usually condemn such limits but in this case I'm for the development and progress of basketball in other countries.


There are a couple of reasons why a limit is needed on foreign players and this is one of them. If the league feel they have a responsibility to produce a better national team then you have to make sure home grown players are given a chance to play. In some Euro leagues this is more relevent than others, and in some leagues it is used in a similar way as a salary cap. If some teams can afford 7 americans and some only 1 then the league becomes uncompetitive.

It's a difficult balancing act for leagues across the world, not just in Europe. You need enough good players that the quality of the league is high enough that it is attractive to fans and sponsors but you need to make sure that this is not done at the expense of home grown players and, as such, the national team, and that the league stays competitive

NYKalltheway
10-04-2010, 09:46 AM
That's why in Cyprus it's very flexible with foreigners. Talent pool is smaller than a village in the USA really.

There were over 120 foreigners in the two basketball divisions last season! That's around 7 foreigners each, and second division teams usually had like 3-4... So you can imagine that the top division over there is pretty much useless and fans appear only in playoffs because of huge rivalries mostly, not because the trophy counts to them. In the 90s and early 2000s there were more fans and there would be like 5-6 domestic players for each team that every fan loved (most of the players of course, not all) and 2-3 foreigners that would stay on for 2-3 years at least.

Now the Cypriot league is literally renting foreign players on 1 year deals in order to show up in the league. Is that what Artest & the rest, want the world of basketball to be like? Rental teams wearing the colors that other players have bled out of passion wearing?

No Mr.Artest, we love our teams over here, we'll never allow anyone to relocate our teams, we'd literally kill people if it was going to happen (only small teams "relocate" but in fact they are just merging with other teams)
You stick to your $$$$ basketball game, let us keep out anyone who is here just for $$ and let us watch our guys bleed in the court just because they want to...

My team was champion for two years in a row and I didn't know any of the players.... They just played a EuroCup qualifying game and even the coach said that the players don't even know each others names!!! Every year 10 players out, 10 new guys in. It's getting ridiculous!

awmathewsjr
10-04-2010, 10:01 AM
Can't say that I blame them. Do you know how many European teams would be "All American" if there were no limitations.

GeneWaldron#5
10-04-2010, 10:32 AM
That's why in Cyprus it's very flexible with foreigners. Talent pool is smaller than a village in the USA really.

There were over 120 foreigners in the two basketball divisions last season! That's around 7 foreigners each, and second division teams usually had like 3-4... So you can imagine that the top division over there is pretty much useless and fans appear only in playoffs because of huge rivalries mostly, not because the trophy counts to them. In the 90s and early 2000s there were more fans and there would be like 5-6 domestic players for each team that every fan loved (most of the players of course, not all) and 2-3 foreigners that would stay on for 2-3 years at least.

Now the Cypriot league is literally renting foreign players on 1 year deals in order to show up in the league. Is that what Artest & the rest, want the world of basketball to be like? Rental teams wearing the colors that other players have bled out of passion wearing?

No Mr.Artest, we love our teams over here, we'll never allow anyone to relocate our teams, we'd literally kill people if it was going to happen (only small teams "relocate" but in fact they are just merging with other teams)
You stick to your $$$$ basketball game, let us keep out anyone who is here just for $$ and let us watch our guys bleed in the court just because they want to...

My team was champion for two years in a row and I didn't know any of the players.... They just played a EuroCup qualifying game and even the coach said that the players don't even know each others names!!! Every year 10 players out, 10 new guys in. It's getting ridiculous!

I know exactly how you feel. My team in England, which is a relatively poor league, finished 3rd, then lost 5 or 6 key players, regrouped, finished with a similar record last season only to lose 7 of that team. It has always been a problem given the standard of the league but it doesn't stop it being very frustrating.