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View Full Version : Was the Escobar trade REALLY worth it?



bartron_44
10-01-2010, 08:38 AM
I realize we needed more guys to get on base this season, but was it really worth giving up Gonzalez AND Collins to get Escobar?

In Toronto:

Escobar : .281/.344/.708 with 4 HR's, 7 doubles and 31 R's in 58 games.
Gonzalez: .259/.296/.793 with 17 HR's, 25 doubles and 47 R's in 85 games.

Season totals:

Escobar : .258/.339/.660 with 4 HR's and 19 doubles
Gonzalez: .253/.297/.750 with 23 HR's, 42 doubles


Imagine the totals Gonzo would have put up if he stayed in Toronto all season? He plays just as good defensively, and he would be ready to go when Hech is ready for the show. Combine that with the fact that we let go our best left handed reliever in the minors (who dominated AAA for KC this year when promoted at the age of 20!!) He should have been in our bullpen next season, and Gonzalez should still be playing SS imo...If Escobar doesn't post an OBP of .370 next season, I don't think the trade made us better at all...

What do you guys think, would you rather still have Collins and Gonzalez?

#1blumpkin
10-01-2010, 08:42 AM
gonzo does not play as good as defense as escobar, not even close really, i would do this trade 1000 times over!!

nstojic
10-01-2010, 08:48 AM
i voted yes before i even looked at the numbers and i stand by 'yes'.... look, you're pretty much asking if gonzalez's best season as a pro, is worth escobar's worst season as a pro... plus some minor leaguers with ceilings that make them mediocre players at the MLB level and don't get me wrong, i love collins... if and when hech is ready, it offers you a good problem to have... who do you move to 3B, who to 2B, do you trade one for top specs... it's a nice problem to have...

North Yorker
10-01-2010, 09:09 AM
Escobar's ceiling is immense. Imagine how good this team would be this year if Escobar,Hill, Lind just put up their career averages... and if Snider didnt get hurt when he was on a tear?

Gonzalez is on the downside of his career, Yunel is in his prime. This will work out for us nicely in the long run imo.

JaysFan87
10-01-2010, 09:18 AM
I would absolutely do this trade again. In fact ill do this trade any day of the week and twice on sunday. Its a no brainer.

Manatoo
10-01-2010, 09:41 AM
You are absolutely right, we should have kept the aging 33 year old SS with a career .294 instead of getting 3 years of a 27 year old SS already with a career .365 OBP. Fire AA.

nithanyo
10-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Gonzo is a free agent at seasons end. Escobar is possibly a part of this teams future. Escobar also has a higher ceiling

wamco
10-01-2010, 11:02 AM
I would absolutely do this trade again. In fact ill do this trade any day of the week and twice on sunday. Its a no brainer.

X2

I think word for word that may have been my response the day of the trade actually. The trade was about more than just this season. Every gm except the braves gm makes that swap.

wamco
10-01-2010, 11:04 AM
15-1 vote, close the thread?

Dol-Fan
10-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Yes. How long have we been looking for a stellar SS that we can call our SS of the future? A long time, if you're still searching for an answer. Escobar is our man, Gonzo wasn't. He plays great D (even better if he manages to keep his head in the game all the time), gets on base, hits for average, and has a little pop. Amazing trade and I would do it a million times over.

T.O. Fan
10-01-2010, 11:15 AM
I voted yes.

It doesn't require an explanation.

I'd like to see whoever voted no to fess up ;)

Twitchy
10-01-2010, 11:29 AM
Probably worth mentioning that Escobar is a career 290/365/398 (763 OPS) hitter while Gonzalez is a 248/294/402 (696 OPS) hitter. So considering Escobar is the better hitter, and the better fielder, and cheaper, and younger...I think you'd be crazy to say that we'd be better off with Gonzo.

JimBob
10-01-2010, 12:19 PM
This was one of the best trades in Jays history. Easily top 7.

BlueJayFanDan
10-01-2010, 01:36 PM
I'm still sad we gave up Tiny Tim in the deal but the deal was necessary for our future. Unless we could have somehow used Gonzo to get someone like Tulowitzki there is no reason to have kept Gonzo around.

1hardcore
10-01-2010, 01:40 PM
Coming from a shortstop Gonzalez had a great year!!! But i think this was a flukey year for him... Next year he'll have a good year but won't put up the same numbers. Alex also is a free agent and i bet you anything he wouldnt' be with the blue jays afterwards!

Halladay
10-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Age, hitting, defense, arm, running, price, career...every single possible category I can think of Escobar is better. I liked Gonzo and he was having a great year but A.A stole the guy from Atlanta. Escobar hasn't even reached his ceiling yet and if/when he does he's going to be near the top of the league in his position. Can we bring back Clayton or Eckstein? Grit baby, GRIT.

bartron_44
10-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Escobar's ceiling is immense. Imagine how good this team would be this year if Escobar,Hill, Lind just put up their career averages... and if Snider didnt get hurt when he was on a tear?

Gonzalez is on the downside of his career, Yunel is in his prime. This will work out for us nicely in the long run imo.


How can Gonzalez "be on the downside" when he just put up one of his best years ever? 20+ Hr's and 40+ doubles from a SS is FOOLISH!!! Also, I watched about 95% of the games this year, and I actually think Gonzalez did play just as good defensively as Escobar overall. Sure Escobar made a couple flashy plays, but so did Gonzalez and he was more consistent.

like I said, If Gonzalez can get back to a .370 OBP at the top of our order, then he may be worth it. But we gave away the only lefty reliever we have in our farm any where near ready for the majors (who is only 20 and posted an ERA of 1.33 and a whip of like .860 in AAA), along with a SS that had almost an .800 OPS for him. I wouldn't call that a steal.

Also, we don't need Gonzalez for another 3 years, we need him for 1, maybe 2. I hope we bring him back and move Hill to third (if we decide to ditch EE and go a different direction at 3rd). Hech is already in AA, and I think he will be here by the start of 2012. If not, by September that year for sure (barring major injury of course). If we let EE go, I would give Gonzalez a 2 year deal to come back and play second for us.

I also don't think some of you are taking what Collins did this season seriously yet for some reason. We gave up a very good pitching prospect. He's already in AAA (and would have been sooner if our team wasn't in a hitters haven), his numbers this year were off the charts,and he is only 20 years young for god sakes. Personally, I think he could have replaced Downs next year as our #1 lefty out of the pen, and been a part of our bullpen for a long time.

bartron_44
10-01-2010, 02:44 PM
I voted yes.

It doesn't require an explanation.

I'd like to see whoever voted no to fess up ;)

it was me....as I think Hech can be our SS of the future. We sure are paying him like he is going to be...I thought Gonzalez was the stop gap until Hech was ready for the show. Instead, we traded to block him after paying a bunch of money to acquire him, AND gave away our best left handed bullpen prospect...

Don't get me wrong, if Escobar reverts back to his former self again returns to being a near .800 OPS hitter, then the trade is good. But if he declines at all to say a .330 OBP, then maybe the Braves saw/know something we don't?

T.O. Fan
10-01-2010, 02:45 PM
^^^I know it was you. I was being coy.

Gonzalez is 32. I'm not sure how many players at that age are on the upside of their careers.

How is Hech blocked when he's still in AA and will likely be there for the better part of next season?

T.O. Fan
10-01-2010, 02:52 PM
Just to add to that......

The chances of young players/prospects in baseball developing into a major leaguer, let alone a star is slim.

You have to add as many high ceiling young players/prospects as possible regardless of position.

If it turns out that a player is indeed "blocked" then you can always make a trade.

bartron_44
10-01-2010, 03:07 PM
^^I realize this, but normally you don't pay them several million a season to play in the minors. I understand he's not block next year, its 2012 and beyond I am talking about. Gonzo should have been an all-star in AL this year, and is only 32. I think he could have put up good stats for at least 1 more year, and held the position down until Hech was ready.

Twitchy
10-01-2010, 03:15 PM
How can Gonzalez "be on the downside" when he just put up one of his best years ever? 20+ Hr's and 40+ doubles from a SS is FOOLISH!!!

Did you look at his stats in Atlanta? They're identical to his year career numbers. 694 OPS in Atlanta, and a 696 career OPS. He had 3 good months, and reverted back to the lousy hitter he's always been. He's not getting any younger, and unless he can stay hot for a 2-3 month period like he did this year, he's going to be a below average hitter.


Also, I watched about 95% of the games this year, and I actually think Gonzalez did play just as good defensively as Escobar overall. Sure Escobar made a couple flashy plays, but so did Gonzalez and he was more consistent.

I watched the same games that you did and I have to disagree. Escobar was significantly better.

l
ike I said, If Gonzalez can get back to a .370 OBP at the top of our order, then he may be worth it. But we gave away the only lefty reliever we have in our farm any where near ready for the majors (who is only 20 and posted an ERA of 1.33 and a whip of like .860 in AAA), along with a SS that had almost an .800 OPS for him. I wouldn't call that a steal.

I assume you mean Escobar, who's career OPS is 365. So I can't see him having too much difficulty reaching 370. Either way, a lefty reliever isn't nearly as valuable as Escobar. If he turns into a good reliever, that's fine, because he'll never be as important to the Jays as Escobar is.


Also, we don't need Gonzalez for another 3 years, we need him for 1, maybe 2. I hope we bring him back and move Hill to third (if we decide to ditch EE and go a different direction at 3rd). Hech is already in AA, and I think he will be here by the start of 2012. If not, by September that year for sure (barring major injury of course). If we let EE go, I would give Gonzalez a 2 year deal to come back and play second for us.

Hill's coming off the worst season of his career - I don't want to throw him to 3B where the offensive demands are much higher than at 2B. He's a 2B now, find another option at third.

Even if Hech is ready by 2012, the Jays would be able to move Escobar for more value in 2012 than they gave up to get him in Gonzo + Collins.


I also don't think some of you are taking what Collins did this season seriously yet for some reason. We gave up a very good pitching prospect. He's already in AAA (and would have been sooner if our team wasn't in a hitters haven), his numbers this year were off the charts,and he is only 20 years young for god sakes. Personally, I think he could have replaced Downs next year as our #1 lefty out of the pen, and been a part of our bullpen for a long time.

Relievers aren't that valuable. If he was a starter it'd be one thing. But he's not. He'd have to pitch as well as Billy Wagner in order to make someone worry about giving him up, and considering Wagner's one of the all time greatest LH relievers I Just don't see that happening.

StealingSigns
10-01-2010, 06:58 PM
Poll is now 32-1...

H-MYK
10-01-2010, 07:44 PM
Ehh, I should've read the threads responding posts before voting. I voted No, I was too into offense :facepalm:

Jays_Win_Again
10-01-2010, 08:32 PM
Who cares if we gave up a reliever they make them every day. Our best chance on a reliever is one of our higher level prospects that doesn't pan out as a starter, maybe a guy who has good stuff but has difficulty second time through the order. I also wonder how good of "pure" stuff Collins has or if its more the fact people have trouble reading him because he's 5'5" and the pitch is coming from a different angle. I hope he does well though cause he is a nice story in baseball.

the_jon
10-02-2010, 04:27 PM
What a stupid thread we raped that trade.

FlakeyFool
10-02-2010, 06:06 PM
amazing how people are upset about losing a mid level prospect and a 32 year old shortstop

jaysnraptors44
10-02-2010, 06:25 PM
good trade. escobar way younger then gonzo better fielder ,good hitter escobar is just having a bad season .

Jays Claw
10-02-2010, 11:50 PM
I'm amazed that a few of you dislike the Escobar-Gonzalez trade. I'll tell you this for now - Escobar will be more valuable in the immediate future rather than Collins, Pastronicky and Gonzalez. I mean, what's the risk? Didn't we not all want a SS that could get on base, hit for average and provide some financial flexibility?

Glenfidish
10-03-2010, 12:24 AM
Just so ya'll know im not the biggest baseball fan around. The fcat of the matter is that we have a tremendous baseball picther named escobar! Thats all i have to say. He can flat out pitch at such a young age. :clap:

StealingSigns
10-03-2010, 12:37 AM
Just so ya'll know im not the biggest baseball fan around. The fcat of the matter is that we have a tremendous baseball picther named escobar! Thats all i have to say. He can flat out pitch at such a young age. :clap:
:confused:

2009mvp
10-03-2010, 12:49 AM
^^Kelvim. Duh.

Gibby
10-03-2010, 01:49 AM
46 - yes
3 - No

It good to know we all agree on something. there was no way Gonzo was going to continue at his pace. look at his numbers in ATL. he had 687 OPS in atl which is worse than Excobar's numbers in Toronto.

Macedonian
10-03-2010, 06:33 AM
Gonzalez is on the downside of his career, Yunel is in his prime.
This!

BlueJayCarter
10-04-2010, 11:58 AM
I realize we needed more guys to get on base this season, but was it really worth giving up Gonzalez AND Collins to get Escobar?

In Toronto:

Escobar : .281/.344/.708 with 4 HR's, 7 doubles and 31 R's in 58 games.
Gonzalez: .259/.296/.793 with 17 HR's, 25 doubles and 47 R's in 85 games.

Season totals:

Escobar : .258/.339/.660 with 4 HR's and 19 doubles
Gonzalez: .253/.297/.750 with 23 HR's, 42 doubles


Imagine the totals Gonzo would have put up if he stayed in Toronto all season? He plays just as good defensively, and he would be ready to go when Hech is ready for the show. Combine that with the fact that we let go our best left handed reliever in the minors (who dominated AAA for KC this year when promoted at the age of 20!!) He should have been in our bullpen next season, and Gonzalez should still be playing SS imo...If Escobar doesn't post an OBP of .370 next season, I don't think the trade made us better at all...

What do you guys think, would you rather still have Collins and Gonzalez?

I think we should have kept Collins. Maybe find another piece since he now is in Kansas so he wasn't that important to the Braves organization. But, Escobar is going to be a good fit for the Blue Jays .... most importantly he is young .... not old like Gonzo. The Blue Jays need to get younger with a lot of talent which Escobar has.

Bob_at_york
10-04-2010, 02:21 PM
We sold HIGH with Gonzalez. he will never hit like that again.

FlakeyFool
10-04-2010, 02:49 PM
well lets hope he doesn't

T.O. Fan
10-04-2010, 07:57 PM
We sold HIGH with Gonzalez. he will never hit like that again.

Agreed.

bomber0104
10-04-2010, 11:18 PM
Escobar sure isn't gonna tear it up offensively but its just amazing to know that you have a SS for the next few years who will be hitting near .300 although with limited pop while playing great defense

Canadian hemi
10-05-2010, 03:44 PM
i voted yes before i even looked at the numbers and i stand by 'yes'.... look, you're pretty much asking if gonzalez's best season as a pro, is worth escobar's worst season as a pro... plus some minor leaguers with ceilings that make them mediocre players at the MLB level and don't get me wrong, i love collins... if and when hech is ready, it offers you a good problem to have... who do you move to 3B, who to 2B, do you trade one for top specs... it's a nice problem to have...

100% agree.

I wouldn't do the trade if we were contending...but were not..so..I willl do it again in a heart beat.

Is Escobar as good as we want him to be, or hope him to be....sadly no. I don't think he'll be as good as we want him to be. But I'm find with that. He's got a very good glove....which is all I want from my SS