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View Full Version : Prime Wade vs Prime T-Mac



kArSoN RyDaH
10-01-2010, 05:48 AM
Who is the better player?

MTar786
10-01-2010, 05:53 AM
damn thats a tough one. i call em equals

tmac had more range and more of a killer instinct.. better jumper and id def choose him in a last second situation over wade

wade can get to the rim slightly better, create more freethrow opportunities better defense

Wade>You
10-01-2010, 06:05 AM
T-Mac will be remembered as a scorer more than anything. A better comparison is Kobe or T-Mac.

tmacsc2
10-01-2010, 06:24 AM
T-mac hands down, the dude was unbelievable come on 13 points in 33 seconds! T-mac was dirty back in the day!

barreleffact
10-01-2010, 06:29 AM
wade and its not very close IMO

PraiseJesus
10-01-2010, 06:39 AM
Wade is way better considering his defense.

mynameismo
10-01-2010, 06:42 AM
All around game = Wade.
Scoring = TMac

icon1914
10-01-2010, 06:45 AM
Prime TMac was an amazing scoring..... But never got out of the first round.

Prime Wade is an amazing scorer, and solid defender.... He also has won a title and always competed in the post season.

Not really much of a comparison to me.... Unless it's all about the stats, but it's clear cut which player has had the bigger impact on his teams.

D Roses Bulls
10-01-2010, 07:21 AM
PRIME T-MAC....... I love wade, but this guy if injuries didnt happen would of been one of the greats. 6ft 8in guy who could shoot from anywhere and could take off and dunk with the best of them. he was putting up 60 point games when that was very uncommon. everyone knew he was gonna take the shot but still no one could stop him. he was just so damn good.

Heater4life
10-01-2010, 07:22 AM
if anyone knows the answer to this question its, Celts, Piston, and Mavs fans. D Wade not even close.

NYKalltheway
10-01-2010, 07:54 AM
Tmac 100%


Wade is an amazing player though, but Tmac could have been remembered along with the best ever, Wade does not have such capacity in his game ;)

Venomous88
10-01-2010, 08:09 AM
Wade of course. Wade is a better defender than T Mac ever was, and he was just as great a scorer. Just because he wasn't a better pure scorer like T-Mac did not mean he didn't get his points. Also, Wade was a better passer and had more assist than T-Mac. Anyone who disagrees needs to check the numbers again and the games.

Knicks21
10-01-2010, 08:16 AM
Statistically it is wade, but for me i enjoy watching t mac. I LOVE his shot release, without the injuries he could've been much better.
He has a swag, hes just amazing to watch.
Check the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFE

Joshtd1
10-01-2010, 08:21 AM
Having seen both I think its T-mac. Just as good of a play maker IMO, better overall scorer. His defense was pretty good too.

Venomous88
10-01-2010, 08:24 AM
Statistically it is wade, but for me i enjoy watching t mac. I LOVE his shot release, without the injuries he could've been much better.
He has a swag, hes just amazing to watch.
Check the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFEIt's all on preference of which is exciting for the viewer. If it's posterizing and circus shots, it's definitely Wade. However, T-Mac had his swag with the palming the ball behind his back looking at the opponent thing going on.

Heater4life
10-01-2010, 08:26 AM
6ft 8in guy who could shoot from anywhere and could take off and dunk with the best of them. he was putting up 60 point games when that was very uncommon. everyone knew he was gonna take the shot but still no one could stop him. he was just so damn good.

Great scorers come and go, but great players are few and far in between.

I can apply your statement above to T-mac, Durant, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler and looks like it was written for them specifically.

Heater4life
10-01-2010, 08:27 AM
It's all on preference of which is exciting for the viewer. If it's posterizing and circus shots, it's definitely Wade. However, T-Mac had his swag with the palming the ball behind his back looking at the opponent thing going on.

theres no swag when one of your eyes gets lazy about it....

Venomous88
10-01-2010, 08:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMsK38vo5to

Venomous88
10-01-2010, 08:36 AM
theres no swag when one of your eyes gets lazy about it....lol don't be such a homer. T Mac was great in his prime.

Knicks21
10-01-2010, 08:49 AM
It's all on preference of which is exciting for the viewer. If it's posterizing and circus shots, it's definitely Wade. However, T-Mac had his swag with the palming the ball behind his back looking at the opponent thing going on.

I can understand why people like Wade over T Mac, and vice versa. The Bold is right on the money.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2010, 08:53 AM
The Mac

tr3ymill3r
10-01-2010, 09:04 AM
If both are in their prime, I'd take TMac. I believe Wade has a lot more of the intangibles however TMac could have scored from anywhere. Wade is a great player as well but he's just not able to rise up over anybody and take a jump shot as if they aren't there. Even with TMacs line drive jump shot he could have shot over any 7 footer with little to no problem. Wade does have a ring, but I'd make a case for TMac to have at least had the potential to have one if he had been healthy, and now with recent allegations over the referees targeting Yao in the playoffs. That was a pretty dangerous team the one year TMac and Yao were both kicking strong in the playoffs.

Chronz
10-01-2010, 10:45 AM
theres no swag when one of your eyes gets lazy about it....

LOL ur sucha hater

IndiansFan337
10-01-2010, 11:00 AM
T-Mac was more athletic and longer. But he had a much poorer shot selection. Then the injuries hit him and he lost some of that elite athleticism and his shot selection then got even worse. So it's a tough call, but I think that you've got to go with D-Wade. Wade won a championship. Whereas, T-Mac never managed to advance beyond round one in the NBA playoffs.

Jaji
10-01-2010, 11:05 AM
I say T-Mac. He's longer and had more range.

CHANGO
10-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Wade is more complete.
I think it would be better one, Prime Carter Vs Prime T-Mac, or Prime Kobe Vs Prime T-Mac. Carter and Kobe, become more like T-Mac, than Wade, they are shooters.

HakeemTheDream
10-02-2010, 10:58 AM
Playoffs are where it counts, and T-Mac has never played as well as Wade did in the playoffs. Just look at Wade's numbers against Boston in the first round, 33ppg 56% 5.6rebs 7apg against a very good defensive team that Kobe shot 40% against. T-Mac would probably have shot 40 something% against that team too even if he was in his prime

Chronz
10-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Playoffs are where it counts, and T-Mac has never played as well as Wade did in the playoffs. Just look at Wade's numbers against Boston in the first round, 33ppg 56% 5.6rebs 7apg against a very good defensive team that Kobe shot 40% against. T-Mac would probably have shot 40 something% against that team too even if he was in his prime

Lol look up tmacs stats against the best defensive team in the lg one of his playoff series. In an era where hand check was legal.

Raoul Duke
10-02-2010, 03:19 PM
Who would you rather invest tens of millions of dollars in?

Khalifa21
10-02-2010, 06:02 PM
I gotta go with T-Mac.

m26555
10-02-2010, 07:10 PM
Prime TMac was an amazing scoring..... But never got out of the first round.

Prime Wade is an amazing scorer, and solid defender.... He also has won a title and always competed in the post season.

Not really much of a comparison to me.... Unless it's all about the stats, but it's clear cut which player has had the bigger impact on his teams.
Wade won a title with Shaq. Who did McGrady EVER have on his team that was even close to the level of Shaq (and PLEASE don't say Yao)? Take one look at T-Mac's playoff numbers, and then try to make the "but he didn't perform in the playoffs" argument.

A prime McGrady was the most dominant wing in the game; even moreso than Kobe.

JordansBulls
10-02-2010, 07:57 PM
T-mac hands down, the dude was unbelievable come on 13 points in 33 seconds! T-mac was dirty back in the day!

:yawn:

Raoul Duke
10-02-2010, 10:44 PM
Wade won a title with Shaq. Who did McGrady EVER have on his team that was even close to the level of Shaq (and PLEASE don't say Yao)? Take one look at T-Mac's playoff numbers, and then try to make the "but he didn't perform in the playoffs" argument.

A prime McGrady was the most dominant wing in the game; even moreso than Kobe.

Wade also got his team a 5 seed for the last two years, playing with one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't try and make it sound like a "it's no comparison!!1!" kinda thing. Thats just silly.

tbron
10-02-2010, 11:08 PM
damn thats a tough one. i call em equals

tmac had more range and more of a killer instinct.. better jumper and id def choose him in a last second situation over wade

wade can get to the rim slightly better, create more freethrow opportunities better defense

and your team would never come close to a ring.

tbron
10-02-2010, 11:21 PM
Wade won a title with Shaq. Who did McGrady EVER have on his team that was even close to the level of Shaq (and PLEASE don't say Yao)? Take one look at T-Mac's playoff numbers, and then try to make the "but he didn't perform in the playoffs" argument.

A prime McGrady was the most dominant wing in the game; even moreso than Kobe.

That's getting old yao had years with t mac that were better than the title year wade had with shaq. Not only that it's not so much about an NBA title as it is getting out of the first round. Which t mac never did. Wade was able to his first year and led his team in ppg and apg. Wade PLAYS D and he's clutch.

Wade was on beast mode in the finals not shaq don't forget that. Kobe was is and will always be better than t mac.

marlinsfan24
10-03-2010, 12:46 AM
I'd take Prime T-Mac over Wade any day and I am a huge Heat fan.

JordansBulls
10-03-2010, 10:14 AM
I'd take Prime T-Mac over Wade any day and I am a huge Heat fan.

:speechless:

footballer2369
10-03-2010, 11:07 AM
Wade won a title with Shaq. Who did McGrady EVER have on his team that was even close to the level of Shaq (and PLEASE don't say Yao)? Take one look at T-Mac's playoff numbers, and then try to make the "but he didn't perform in the playoffs" argument.

A prime McGrady was the most dominant wing in the game; even moreso than Kobe.

You mean 13 and 10 Shaq in the finals? A glorified Big Z.

Yao was 20 and 10 several years with McGrady...

Hawkeye15
10-03-2010, 11:32 AM
You mean 13 and 10 Shaq in the finals? A glorified Big Z.

Yao was 20 and 10 several years with McGrady...

you have to agree, if there is a player who can't be measured in stats, as far as their impact on the floor, its Shaq that year. Sure he didn't put up huge numbers in the finals, but at that stage of his career, Shaq was still the focal point of the defense at all times. They crowded his side of the floor, and sent help every single time the ball went his way. I am not saying Wade didn't have one of the most amazing finals performances of all time, but TMac's peak of 3 years, is better than Wade's. TMac was the best two way wing in the NBA for 3 years.

footballer2369
10-03-2010, 11:34 AM
you have to agree, if there is a player who can't be measured in stats, as far as their impact on the floor, its Shaq that year. Sure he didn't put up huge numbers in the finals, but at that stage of his career, Shaq was still the focal point of the defense at all times. They crowded his side of the floor, and sent help every single time the ball went his way. I am not saying Wade didn't have one of the most amazing finals performances of all time, but TMac's peak of 3 years, is better than Wade's. TMac was the best two way wing in the NBA for 3 years.

I'm going to have to disagree...considering Wade is possibly at his peak now, I think it will become more clear over the next couple years....

I'd be interested if you could show me any numbers that point toward T-Mac, but from what I've seen Wade has the numbers, the playoff numbers, the finals dominance, the ring and the defensive edge...

Hawkeye15
10-03-2010, 11:46 AM
I'm going to have to disagree...considering Wade is possibly at his peak now, I think it will become more clear over the next couple years....

I'd be interested if you could show me any numbers that point toward T-Mac, but from what I've seen Wade has the numbers, the playoff numbers, the finals dominance, the ring and the defensive edge...

the first part, I totally agree with.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=mcgratr01&y1=2003&p2=wadedw01&y2=2009

These are their 2 peak seasons. Its so close, I would consider this comparions a total matter of opinion. I can never factor in team success unless they have equal roster support in equal conference situations, of which neither had in their peak years.

But yeah, this one, you can't go wrong with either. And with Wade being at his peak now, this may not be a conversation in a couple of years.

Like I said, I think TMac was the best two way wing player (he was an amazing defender in Orlando man) over his peak. The same can't be said of Wade, but that is arguably because of LeBron being here. TMac didn't have to compete with prime LeBron. He had young Kobe, right before Bryant peaked

Mplsman
10-03-2010, 03:01 PM
Tough, but gotta go with Dwade.

Chronz
10-03-2010, 05:51 PM
That's getting old yao had years with t mac that were better than the title year wade had with shaq. Not only that it's not so much about an NBA title as it is getting out of the first round. Which t mac never did. Wade was able to his first year and led his team in ppg and apg. Wade PLAYS D and he's clutch.

Wade was on beast mode in the finals not shaq don't forget that. Kobe was is and will always be better than t mac.

Its old because neither of you are debating this matter properly. The question asks us to compare players during their prime. By the time Yao became a player worth mentioning Tmac was PAST HIS PRIME. So pointing out what he accomplished with Yao at a stage when hes comparable to Shaq is pointless. That wasnt the same Tmac we're comparing so who cares? Tmac in his prime never had anyone comparable to the talents Bron-Wade-Kobe-Vince ever got to play with. Put it this way, Tmac's best sidekick was Brons third or 4th option. Think about that

Chronz
10-03-2010, 05:56 PM
Who would you rather invest tens of millions of dollars in?

What are the parameters surrounding such a scenario? Can Tmac stay in his Prime once it began?

If so Id gladly take a 20-21 Year old freak specimen with a massive skillset over the guy who wouldnt come into the league until age 22 and didnt reach a comparable level of play for a few years there after. Im not asking for Tmac to be fully healthy, just that he avoid the game altering injuries hes sustained. Then again Wade hasnt exactly been a picture of health has he.

Jacks3
10-03-2010, 06:24 PM
t-mac's prime has become overrated. he was never better than prime kobe/wade/lebron.

Raoul Duke
10-03-2010, 07:12 PM
What are the parameters surrounding such a scenario? Can Tmac stay in his Prime once it began?

If so Id gladly take a 20-21 Year old freak specimen with a massive skillset over the guy who wouldnt come into the league until age 22 and didnt reach a comparable level of play for a few years there after. Im not asking for Tmac to be fully healthy, just that he avoid the game altering injuries hes sustained. Then again Wade hasnt exactly been a picture of health has he.

To be fair, Wade came into the league at 21 but didn't really blow up until his second year. T-mac really came into his own at 21. So, one year difference. I don't see how that factors into the discussion or gives either one an edge. Shrug.

I've said before that if you're evaluating the man based solely on stats, however advanced they may be, then there isn't anything to discuss. His stats are what they are. Mighty impressive! And also very comparable to Wade's. I can't evaluate the two impartially because Wade actually had team success, which some people all of a sudden seem to think means nothing. There are lots of great players with quality supporting casts. Very few of them win titles, and even fewer win Finals MVP trophies.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2010, 07:23 PM
t-mac's prime has become overrated. he was never better than prime kobe/wade/lebron.

please explain. I don't think he had a peak year ahead of LeBron for example, but the other two, he sure did. McGrady's best year is statistically better than Kobe's best year. Kobe is great because of his sustained effectiveness and roster support.

m26555
10-03-2010, 07:23 PM
Wade also got his team a 5 seed for the last two years, playing with one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't try and make it sound like a "it's no comparison!!1!" kinda thing. Thats just silly.
And where did I say "it's no comparison!!!"? Don't put words in my mouth.

m26555
10-03-2010, 07:24 PM
You mean 13 and 10 Shaq in the finals? A glorified Big Z.

Yao was 20 and 10 several years with McGrady...
A glorified Big Z? You cannot be serious...

13 and 10 Shaq had more of an impact on the game than 20 and 10 Yao at that point. He was still a force to be reckoned with in the paint and opened things up for Wade A LOT. Only a homer would not see that.

Chronz
10-03-2010, 07:26 PM
Why are you guys referring to Shaq as 13-10? Shaq was a 20-10 player then too, Dallas just based their entire defensive scheme to limit his effectiveness so of course hes only avg 13. What makes you guys think Yao would do any better?

Meaze_Gibson
10-03-2010, 07:53 PM
watch the playoffs again ya'll. Shaq was not getting doubled every possession. Get real. This dude had a single digit playoff game in this series. If your inferring he was the reason the lane opened for wade it won't make sense.

With that said. T-Mac. Wade is nice, possibly top 5 sg of all time nice when he retire. But Mac, in his prime, was what wade would be with a trey ball and height. He could D up 3-4 positions, grabbed more boards and was jus as good a passer but less turnover prone.

Chronz
10-03-2010, 10:03 PM
To be fair, Wade came into the league at 21 but didn't really blow up until his second year. T-mac really came into his own at 21. So, one year difference. I don't see how that factors into the discussion or gives either one an edge. Shrug.
Because your not being fair. Tmacs prime was basically from day 1 in Orlando leading up to the day he had to be carried out in a stretcher. Before the injuries mounted, had he been able to stay at PEAK form both in terms of health and performance, then that prime lasts considerably longer. In other words, Tmac enters his prime at an age before Wade isnt even in the league, and enters his peak at an age where Wade is barely breaking out and scratching the surface of his potential. Hes just a step ahead, even his teen years were impressive enough to garner a max deal, the dude was a defensive beast in Toronto. Thats what I was getting at



I've said before that if you're evaluating the man based solely on stats, however advanced they may be, then there isn't anything to discuss. His stats are what they are. Mighty impressive! And also very comparable to Wade's.
If they are comparable then why is there nothing to discuss. I would think if the stats werent even comparable that it would be a no brainer and then there would be nothing to discuss.


I can't evaluate the two impartially because Wade actually had team success, which some people all of a sudden seem to think means nothing.
Then that begs the question, why are you allowing their supporting cast dictate who you deem the better player? Of course winning matters, but only within the scope of what is expected of you. Its not as if Wade won his entire career, hes the perfect example of a player whos experienced the ups and downs pretty much every other year of his career. If he was only getting better as a player, then how is it possible that the team success he experienced greatly fluctuated? How can Wade go from single handedly winning a title according to some, then unable to get out the first round the next. Its clear such a large difference can be attributed to his support.

Therefore if your support has such a strong influence on your ultimate success how can you hold it against Tmac for not getting enough done? Hes gotten his teams to overachieve beyond reasonable measure consecutive times, to me thats where this discussion should start. Wade had crap around him last few years but he didnt have Tmac crap.


There are lots of great players with quality supporting casts. Very few of them win titles, and even fewer win Finals MVP trophies.

How many of those great players with quality supporting casts are able to produce at such an elite level individually? This is what separates the Tmac's from the Reggie Millers of the world. Reggie was a great player but he wasnt great enough to win despite all the help and depth in the world, same holds true for Ewing. They werent great enough to win despite the tools, Tmac never had the tools in place to win beyond the first round, the year it could have happened the Rockets actually got injured outside of Mac and Yao.

Chronz
10-03-2010, 10:07 PM
watch the playoffs again ya'll. Shaq was not getting doubled every possession. Get real. This dude had a single digit playoff game in this series. If your inferring he was the reason the lane opened for wade it won't make sense.

With that said. T-Mac. Wade is nice, possibly top 5 sg of all time nice when he retire. But Mac, in his prime, was what wade would be with a trey ball and height. He could D up 3-4 positions, grabbed more boards and was jus as good a passer but less turnover prone.

"If they keep guarding you this way Im going to keep taking advantage"
D-Wade

You were saying? They were sending HARD DOUBLES aka Doubles with 2 7footers into the post, that mostly freed up shots for Antoine Walker and the other role players, but every now and then Wade took advantage of the open lanes. Though Ill admit Shaq let the doubles frustrate him to a degree Ive never seen. It was the start of his demise, but he completely dominated Detroit. His playoff run in its entirety was impressive.

footballer2369
10-03-2010, 10:17 PM
"If they keep guarding you this way Im going to keep taking advantage"
D-Wade

You were saying? They were sending HARD DOUBLES aka Doubles with 2 7footers into the post, that mostly freed up shots for Antoine Walker and the other role players, but every now and then Wade took advantage of the open lanes. Though Ill admit Shaq let the doubles frustrate him to a degree Ive never seen. It was the start of his demise, but he completely dominated Detroit. His playoff run in its entirety was impressive.

Yes, but this comparison is not Wade vs Shaq. It is Wade vs T Mac and since T Mac has never had a playoff run of any kind I think the comparison ends there, no?

Their best years are nearly equivalent, Wade has already had the 2nd and 3rd best years and Wade is just now entering his prime at age 28.

This comparison is a non-comparison...

todu82
10-04-2010, 09:54 AM
Dwayne Wade

Hawkeye15
10-04-2010, 09:58 AM
Yes, but this comparison is not Wade vs Shaq. It is Wade vs T Mac and since T Mac has never had a playoff run of any kind I think the comparison ends there, no?

Their best years are nearly equivalent, Wade has already had the 2nd and 3rd best years and Wade is just now entering his prime at age 28.

This comparison is a non-comparison...

no, it does not. Give prime TMac a 20-10 Shaq that was still option 1, 2, and 3 for the defense, and things change. That is Chronz's, and my point

Hawkeye15
10-04-2010, 09:59 AM
Why are you guys referring to Shaq as 13-10? Shaq was a 20-10 player then too, Dallas just based their entire defensive scheme to limit his effectiveness so of course hes only avg 13. What makes you guys think Yao would do any better?

Yao would have done better. At that time, Shaq still became the entire focal point of the defense. He was a player that the opposing team loaded his side of the floor for, and sent help the second the ball hit the air headed his way. It was the same tactic that was used on Shaq for years. Let the perimeter guys beat you, because a shot from 18 was FAR better than a dunk from 1.

Btw, I am agreeing with you completely, just wanted to continue your point.

Raoul Duke
10-04-2010, 09:24 PM
If they are comparable then why is there nothing to discuss. I would think if the stats werent even comparable that it would be a no brainer and then there would be nothing to discuss.

Yeah thats pretty much my point. If you're basing it on stats then flip a coin, because it's that close.


Wade had crap around him last few years but he didnt have Tmac crap.

You're honestly telling me that Wade's team from two years ago was better than anything T-Mac ever had?

Chronz
10-05-2010, 12:23 AM
Yes, but this comparison is not Wade vs Shaq.
Your not following the discussion, Shaq was being compared to YAO. It wasnt brought up again because it was a futile argument.


It is Wade vs T Mac and since T Mac has never had a playoff run of any kind I think the comparison ends there, no?

Exactly which series was Tmac suppose to win?


Their best years are nearly equivalent, Wade has already had the 2nd and 3rd best years and Wade is just now entering his prime at age 28.

This comparison is a non-comparison...

There is no question Wade had the better prime, Tmac was unable to sustain his for as long a duration, but if we are comparing their abilties at their very best, and if we were to grant Tmac a healthy back then he too extends his prime. Thats where the comparison changes, but in the grand scheme of things totally meaningless.

Chronz
10-05-2010, 12:27 AM
Yeah thats pretty much my point. If you're basing it on stats then flip a coin, because it's that close.
If your basing it solely on stats then its Tmac.


You're honestly telling me that Wade's team from two years ago was better than anything T-Mac ever had?

How about you cite some examples?

Chronz
10-05-2010, 12:33 AM
Yao would have done better. At that time, Shaq still became the entire focal point of the defense. He was a player that the opposing team loaded his side of the floor for, and sent help the second the ball hit the air headed his way. It was the same tactic that was used on Shaq for years. Let the perimeter guys beat you, because a shot from 18 was FAR better than a dunk from 1.

Btw, I am agreeing with you completely, just wanted to continue your point.

I never said Yao would do better.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2010, 10:29 AM
I never said Yao would do better.

individually he would have I think. Dallas would not treat him like they did Shaq. Yao would have had more opportunities, where as Dallas crowded the side of the floor Shaq was on at all times, to limit his damage. Wade admitted he would continue to attack if they played that way.

dnewguy
10-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Wade has never got any respect from fans, so I am not surprised people will even have the guts to put him and T Mac in the same sentence. If you compare Kobe and Bron, even though bron is better, they say Kobe is better because he has more rings....but when it's Wade vs Durant or T Mac, then all of a sudden, it's not about rings.

footballer2369
10-05-2010, 11:03 AM
There is no question Wade had the better prime, Tmac was unable to sustain his for as long a duration, but if we are comparing their abilties at their very best, and if we were to grant Tmac a healthy back then he too extends his prime. Thats where the comparison changes, but in the grand scheme of things totally meaningless.

This was what I wanted to hear. Good points.

If this is who had a better prime, it's Wade. If this is who had a better peak, it's as close as it can be (though I personally grant Wade the advantage due to the best finals performance ever).

But if this is an if question where T Mac is not injured it becomes a legitimate argument where choosing T Mac definitely has merit.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2010, 11:32 AM
Wade has never got any respect from fans, so I am not surprised people will even have the guts to put him and T Mac in the same sentence. If you compare Kobe and Bron, even though bron is better, they say Kobe is better because he has more rings....but when it's Wade vs Durant or T Mac, then all of a sudden, it's not about rings.

then show why Wade's peak, to date, was better than TMac's. Wade has gotten a ton of respect from fans.
And the rings argument is ridiculous. The fans who use that are not debating in a rational way. Roster support wins rings. Nobody can do it alone.

dnewguy
10-05-2010, 12:18 PM
then show why Wade's peak, to date, was better than TMac's. Wade has gotten a ton of respect from fans.
And the rings argument is ridiculous. The fans who use that are not debating in a rational way. Roster support wins rings. Nobody can do it alone.

So Wade always had a better team than T Mac? thats got to be the biggest joke ever. T Mac played with Howard, Yao Ming and a lot of solid defender/hooters in Houston and did nothing with it.

Chronz
10-05-2010, 01:14 PM
individually he would have I think. Dallas would not treat him like they did Shaq. Yao would have had more opportunities, where as Dallas crowded the side of the floor Shaq was on at all times, to limit his damage. Wade admitted he would continue to attack if they played that way.
Im not talking about individually, Im talking about the sum of his contributions

Shaq being a 13-10 player with tremendous defensive pressure is better than Yao being exploited (like weve seen Dallas do) and only finishing when created for him.

Chronz
10-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Wade has never got any respect from fans, so I am not surprised people will even have the guts to put him and T Mac in the same sentence. If you compare Kobe and Bron, even though bron is better, they say Kobe is better because he has more rings....but when it's Wade vs Durant or T Mac, then all of a sudden, it's not about rings.
Thats a good excuse for people who use that line, I dont. So you still got people to set straight.

Chronz
10-05-2010, 01:16 PM
This was what I wanted to hear. Good points.

If this is who had a better prime, it's Wade. If this is who had a better peak, it's as close as it can be (though I personally grant Wade the advantage due to the best finals performance ever).

But if this is an if question where T Mac is not injured it becomes a legitimate argument where choosing T Mac definitely has merit.
Only one problem, Wades title season wasnt even his peak season.

Chronz
10-05-2010, 01:17 PM
So Wade always had a better team than T Mac? thats got to be the biggest joke ever. T Mac played with Howard, Yao Ming and a lot of solid defender/hooters in Houston and did nothing with it.
Read the Thread Title

Hawkeye15
10-05-2010, 02:08 PM
So Wade always had a better team than T Mac? thats got to be the biggest joke ever. T Mac played with Howard, Yao Ming and a lot of solid defender/hooters in Houston and did nothing with it.

this isn't about team, success, any of that. Its about who was better, individually, in their peak. You can't have it both ways man. On one hand, I have seen you argue Wade is better than Kobe in the main forums, and you are correct. You can't go the other way here to argue for Wade. Its about individual

Hawkeye15
10-05-2010, 02:08 PM
Im not talking about individually, Im talking about the sum of his contributions

Shaq being a 13-10 player with tremendous defensive pressure is better than Yao being exploited (like weve seen Dallas do) and only finishing when created for him.

fair enough, I agree with that.

Meaze_Gibson
10-05-2010, 09:22 PM
Somebody brought up a good point. Wade's title run wasnt his peak season. With that said im doin a john kerry and callin it even. Cuz wade peak season 2 yrs ago was ridiculous too. Its like you got mac whose lowkey but effective. then you got wade who plays wit more heart. Man its jus hard but im biased cuz i was a mac fan first lol.

Niro
10-06-2010, 08:24 AM
close but tmac

Raoul Duke
10-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Only one problem, Wades title season wasnt even his peak season.

How so? For someone who touts the advanced metrics so loudly, you've obviously failed to look at them in this instance.

Anyway, I'm done. You win, in that you have much more enthusiasm for T-mac related threads than I do.

Jacks3
10-06-2010, 08:31 PM
please explain. I don't think he had a peak year ahead of LeBron for example, but the other two, he sure did. McGrady's best year is statistically better than Kobe's best year. Kobe is great because of his sustained effectiveness and roster support.

i don't judge players based on just advanced stats, though. i think that's silly and overly simplistic. i look at a combination of volume stats, advanced stats, skill, observation and intangibles. and i think kobe's 35/5/5/2 on 56% TS is slightly more impressive than t-mac's 32/7/6/2 on 56% TS. t-mac certainly had better "advanced stats", but kobe is right there--26.2 PER/0.224 WS/48/15.3 WS. kobe is the more skilled player, the more clutch player, and has better intangibles imo in terms of leadership, heart, work ethic AND he played 5 extra games, which adds to his value. lol @ kobe's greatness coming from "roster support". more like his individual brilliance, tremendous accomplishments, and otherworldly longevity. :rolleyes:

oh, and kobe was the better defender imo.

Chronz
10-06-2010, 08:32 PM
How so? For someone who touts the advanced metrics so loudly, you've obviously failed to look at them in this instance.

Anyway, I'm done. You win, in that you have much more enthusiasm for T-mac related threads than I do.

You cant be done after asking me a question even a rhetorical one. Defend your claims, dont leave when the discussions just started. If you think you dont have the time then take your time, we arent going anywhere.

Burkey3472
10-06-2010, 08:44 PM
I still have T-mac prime even though Wade had more team success.

Raoul Duke
10-06-2010, 09:04 PM
You cant be done after asking me a question even a rhetorical one. Defend your claims, dont leave when the discussions just started. If you think you dont have the time then take your time, we arent going anywhere.

Dude, I kinda just feel like you want me to copy/paste a bunch of crap from 82games dot com or bball reference dot com and then go "see my point?", which I'm not going to do. I'll play devil's advocate, though, if you'll suffer it.

Would you take Jordan from 87-88, or Jordan from 95-96? Because that answer alone will say a lot about how you're judging a player.

I don't see the logic in insisting that 05-06 wasn't Wade's best year when even the advanced stats indicate that it was only marginally worse than what you define as his "peak", and in fact in some ways it was better. Mind you, this was a year in which, by your own admission, he had a much better supporting cast and was asked to do much less. Am I supposed to say that his season two years later was superior due to the fact that he had more impressive defensive numbers, or am I supposed to consider the fact that he was guarding three positions and running the entire offense? Do those things make his performance superior, or just... I dunno... more more?

It is my opinion that Wade is the superior talent, and I'd take him in his prime over T-Mac of any season given the choice. Then again, I don't think we've seen Wade's prime just yet. His physical prime, maybe, but not his overall prime. That'll come when he maxes out physically and his mental game catches up and maybe even surpasses what his body is capable of.

Now seriously, thats all I have to add for a day or so.

NBA-GMaster
10-09-2010, 09:24 AM
I'd take PRIME TMAC over prime Wade or prime kobe..

Hangtime
10-09-2010, 02:56 PM
This type of comparison is really difficult to make. T-mac was a great player and potent scorer, no doubt. His situation in Orlando never materialized when Grant Hill suffered those injuries. They were suppose to be the dynamic duo those years instead Mcgrady became a one man show carrying the team. They go up 3-1 on the Pistons and lose to what I thought was just an overall better team. And then in Houston there were the defeats to Dallas and then Utah. These were defining moments in his career.

Except for the year they lost to Dallas, Yao would suffer the leg injuries and once again T-mac shouldered the burden dealing with back spasms as well. Wade had some great years without Shaq winning MVP and all but his success advancing in the playoffs came with Shaq. Just as Kobe shouldered the burden in the years between Shaq's departure and Gasol's arrival. he also went up 3-1 against the Suns before losing.

I would probably give T-mac the slight edge if not for the incredible 06 finals performance by Wade. You just can't disregard that ****. He rose up when his team was embarassed after 2 games down 0-2 to Dallas. But I honestly believe you put T-mac in Kobe's position playing with Shaq and Gasol and even Wade's position while in his prime and you get equal results.

Chronz
10-09-2010, 06:15 PM
Dude, I kinda just feel like you want me to copy/paste a bunch of crap from 82games dot com or bball reference dot com and then go "see my point?", which I'm not going to do. I'll play devil's advocate, though, if you'll suffer it.
Why not just make a point to begin with instead of casting doubt on mine? I obviously know the stats so saying I didnt pay attention to them without stating why is meaningless. I mean unless your purposely trying to piss me off.


Would you take Jordan from 87-88, or Jordan from 95-96? Because that answer alone will say a lot about how you're judging a player.

95-96 was MJ most efficient season so no


I don't see the logic in insisting that 05-06 wasn't Wade's best year when even the advanced stats indicate that it was only marginally worse than what you define as his "peak"
Whats preventing you from seeing the logic of a player getting better as he enters his prime? If its because you define a players best season by the amount of help he has around him then I dont know what more to say other than, WHY?


, and in fact in some ways it was better. Mind you, this was a year in which, by your own admission, he had a much better supporting cast and was asked to do much less. Am I supposed to say that his season two years later was superior due to the fact that he had more impressive defensive numbers, or am I supposed to consider the fact that he was guarding three positions and running the entire offense? Do those things make his performance superior, or just... I dunno... more more?
What do you mean more impressive defensive #'s? Im pretty sure those were at their peak that title season. Your suppose to say his season 2 and 3 years later was superior because he honed his midrange game, played damn near every game at playoff intensity, and despite the massive offensive load never let up defensively. Compared to his youth when he left the heavy lifting to Jones and then Posey. Just seems to me his peak season should be represented by the year in which he displayed the ability to not only do more, but do so more impressively.

Look if you want to argue it was his best season for whatever sympathetic reasoning, you certainly have an open and shut case, after all it doest require much of a thinking process outside of (Title+Similar Stats=Best). It may be a good measure but when I judge players I try to extract his contributions to those of his teammates, and how the 2 mesh together. By that I mean how those players performed with Wade vs their established trends, its tricky work, especially when the player is still playing but with an understanding of a players career curve you can account for certain discrepancies. And in the end if I get nothing conclusive I depend on similar biases.
The important part is being open to the possibility that your biases can be mistaken.


It is my opinion that Wade is the superior talent, and I'd take him in his prime over T-Mac of any season given the choice.
FYI I never actually voted for Tmac Ive only defended some of the accusations being made here.


Then again, I don't think we've seen Wade's prime just yet. His physical prime, maybe, but not his overall prime. That'll come when he maxes out physically and his mental game catches up and maybe even surpasses what his body is capable of.

Wait, so you dont think we've seen Wade's prime but your saying his best season happened YEARS ago? Can you explain this up and down variance in a players ability? Here I thought players got better with age up until the point their athletic ability whithers beyond the point where any psychological edge is moot.

I know what your trying to get at, its referred to as the Phental state, the point where a players athletic ability and mental understanding of the game are in perfect harmony that enables you to get the most out of your abilities. IMO that age tends to come in the 27-31 stage, but is completely dependent on the players game type. Unfortunately for Wade, his athleticism is so important that I dont see him getting better once it dwindles. Your mind can only make up for so much

Raoul Duke
10-09-2010, 07:33 PM
What do you mean more impressive defensive #'s?

Blocks and steals, % stats for each, defensive win shares, all of which were better in 08-09.


FYI I never actually voted for Tmac Ive only defended some of the accusations being made here.

It's an opinion forum, and people are offering opinions. You make it sound like you're Matthew Maconahay in "A Time to Kill".


Wait, so you dont think we've seen Wade's prime but your saying his best season happened YEARS ago?

Look dude, you've said repeatedly that you don't value team success or winning as a "stat", per se. I do. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Wade had a deep playoff run and an outstanding Finals series in which he played the hero, and that factors into my logic. If you want to ignore it, then feel free.

I actually thought the Heat were going to the Finals in '05 as well, but then Wade got hurt (thank god).


The important part is being open to the possibility that your biases can be mistaken.

Oh they certainly can. And so can yours (next, you'll ask me what your biases are, and then we'll have to move this argument to the "Semantics" forum). I never said what season I think was his peak. I'm just pointing out that his championship season was, for all intents and purposes, as good as what you consider to be said peak. And I said it because I hate to see someone adjust the parameters of what constitutes a players peak so that it suits their argument.


...unless your purposely trying to piss me off.

No?

Chronz
10-09-2010, 10:21 PM
Blocks and steals, % stats for each, defensive win shares, all of which were better in 08-09.

True for the STL and BLKS but his defensive winshares are up for debate. Defensive stats are sketchy but one distinction someone would make here is that Wade accrued them at identical rates. That he didnt accumulate the same was due to a shortened season, also the fact that despite sporting superior STL and BLK #'s his Def.RTG was higher that championship season.

Now Im not trying to validate anything, Im just saying the stats at present dont favor one or the other IMO.


It's an opinion forum, and people are offering opinions. You make it sound like you're Matthew Maconahay in "A Time to Kill".

Never seen the movie, does it involve a rogue message board poster on a mission to kill anyone who dare speak against him?

Im well aware of what kind of board this is, its the kind of place where having an opinion is all fine and good if thats all you want to say, but you can only lend credence to that opinion by backing it with facts. You see Im of the opinion that misguided information should be refuted before the spread of ignorance is complete. Is that ok with you?


Look dude, you've said repeatedly that you don't value team success or winning as a "stat", per se. I do.
Thats not what I said at all, Ive always maintained that winning matters, but you have to temper your expectations in an overwhelming majority of comparisons. Its not JUST about winning. Im pretty sure we're both in agreement of that. What Im asking you is to show me where you draw the line and why.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Wade had a deep playoff run and an outstanding Finals series in which he played the hero, and that factors into my logic. If you want to ignore it, then feel free.

Im not ignoring it, Im bringing it to the forefront of the conversation. How can you hold it against Wade (a better Wade) for not having Shaq around to utterly dominate Detroit, or for having a team that could get past the first round without Shaq at all. What exactly did you expect of Wade? And if you fully believe that Wade was a better player when he won the title (Which is what I define as PEAK SEASON), explain to me what part of his game you claim to have declined because every bit inside me told me I was watching a Wade Ive never seen before in 09 and 10. A deep playoff run is ENTIRELY dependent on your supporting cast, your performance given your situation is COMPLETELY up to you. You dont see the wrong in stressing the minority? Its so out of Wades hands that saying he couldnt duplicate a feat he accomplished as a lesser player is insulting his legacy. Atleast my OPINION


I actually thought the Heat were going to the Finals in '05 as well, but then Wade got hurt (thank god).

Something we agree on, I lost out that year but made up for it the following years.


Oh they certainly can. And so can yours (next, you'll ask me what your biases are, and then we'll have to move this argument to the "Semantics" forum). I never said what season I think was his peak. I'm just pointing out that his championship season was, for all intents and purposes, as good as what you consider to be said peak.
At which point I will FULLY explain any one of my biases you claim to hinder my decision. Im hoping you do the same, and no we dont have to move this anywhere.


And I said it because I hate to see someone adjust the parameters of what constitutes a players peak so that it suits their argument.

PLZ Explain


No?

I know man its obvious your not a dick, just stop beating around the bush and say what you got to say.

Raoul Duke
10-10-2010, 09:40 AM
True for the STL and BLKS but his defensive winshares are up for debate. Defensive stats are sketchy but one distinction someone would make here is that Wade accrued them at identical rates. That he didnt accumulate the same was due to a shortened season, also the fact that despite sporting superior STL and BLK #'s his Def.RTG was higher that championship season.

Now Im not trying to validate anything, Im just saying the stats at present dont favor one or the other IMO.

Well, he also placed third in the DPOY voting on '08-'09, and didn't get any votes the year he won his championship. His defense in the playoffs in that chamionship year was exquisite, but I didn't bring that up because I didn't find it very fair to compare a first round exit to a deep playoff run. Hopefully you can see my reasoning a little better now.

JordansBulls
10-19-2010, 04:38 PM
Well, he also placed third in the DPOY voting on '08-'09, and didn't get any votes the year he won his championship. His defense in the playoffs in that chamionship year was exquisite, but I didn't bring that up because I didn't find it very fair to compare a first round exit to a deep playoff run. Hopefully you can see my reasoning a little better now.

I remember watching the playoffs that year and the reason the Heat lost game 1 against the Nets was because Payton was pissed that Wade wasn't playing any defense.

Chronz
10-19-2010, 05:48 PM
I remember watching the playoffs that year and the reason the Heat lost game 1 against the Nets was because Payton was pissed that Wade wasn't playing any defense.
The year prior he made All-D 2nd team when he wasnt even his teams stopper. I remember feeling bad for Eddie Jones, all his defensive effort went unnoticed to his teams best scorer. Now THAT is sad

JordansBulls
11-27-2010, 10:47 AM
Should have made this a poll.

effen5
11-27-2010, 01:30 PM
Prime Tmac was just beyond ridiculous, unguardable.

JordansBulls
11-27-2010, 04:47 PM
Prime Tmac was just beyond ridiculous, unguardable.

Wade is unguardable as well.