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dsickich123
09-29-2010, 05:43 PM
I am not sure who follows Slam magazine, or how they rank the top 50 players that Slam calls the "definite ranking" that they do before every season.

IF YOU CLICK ON THE LINK IT ALSO SHOWS POSITIONAL PLAYER RANKINGS AND YOU CAN FIND LAST YEARS RANKS!

I find it pretty interesting every year, so i thought that i would share it with you...

here is the link...

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/

They do two players every day, and so far have counted down from 50 to 25...

Here is the list so far for this year...

50. Ray Allen
Gilbert Arenas
Lamar Odom
John Wall
OJ Mayo

45. Al Horford
Jason Kidd
Joakim Noah
LaMarcus Aldridge
David West

40. Monta Ellis
Andrew Bogut
Yao Ming
Brandon Jennings
Zach Randolph

35. Stephen Curry
David Lee
Brook Lopez
Gerald Wallace
Manu Ginobili

30. Tony Parker
Kevin Garnett
Rudy Gay
Josh Smith
Andre Iguodala

25. Al Jefferson

Thoughts of so far?

Predictions on 1-25?

I am, curious to see where Russell Westbrook falls because he still has not been mentioned, did not think that he would be ranked this high but i like to see that respect...

dsickich123
09-29-2010, 05:46 PM
ALSO, If you click on the players or links of the players rank it gives you about a one page analysis and prediction of each player...really interesting stuff.

BOSTON617
09-29-2010, 05:50 PM
# 8 durant :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

BOSTON617
09-29-2010, 05:51 PM
oo i went back to 2009 my b

ShaqShoes
09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
Raptors probably won't have a single player in the top 50..wow.

Kidd>>>K-Mart
09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
these rankings are turrible

n83417
09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
# 8 durant :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

If you look at the date, that is from 2009. It looks like only this year's top 25 is complete, and if you scroll back, it is last years rankings.

mjt20mik
09-29-2010, 05:57 PM
Ahaha Ray Allen at 50. John Wall at 46. Horrible Rankings.

dnewguy
09-29-2010, 05:59 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

DerekRE_3
09-29-2010, 06:00 PM
Jennings better not be ranked higher than Tyreke. I can see them going with Curry over Reke, but Jennings is in no way as good. Of course...I don't think I'd put Jennings in the top 50 to begin with.

Baller1
09-29-2010, 06:07 PM
John Wall ranked ahead of the greatest three point shooter of all time. Embarrassing...

DerekRE_3
09-29-2010, 06:10 PM
John Wall ranked ahead of the greatest three point shooter of all time. Embarrassing...

Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

BOSTON617
09-29-2010, 06:10 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

bro your delusional pls state how d wade is better then kobe and for 3 yrs and im a celtic fan i hate kobe :facepalm:

BOSTON617
09-29-2010, 06:11 PM
John Wall ranked ahead of the greatest three point shooter of all time. Embarrassing...

agreed and i dont think kg should be ranked 30th thats my opinion they do a lot more for the team then people think esp kg because most likly pierce is ahead of kg witch i dont agree with

ShaqShoes
09-29-2010, 06:13 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

You can always spot a Heat homer!

ChiSox219
09-29-2010, 06:17 PM
Lopez ahead of Horford and Bogut is funny.

MrFastBreak
09-29-2010, 06:19 PM
LOL at the title being in all caps as if this is actually a credible source. There's so much unsound about these rankings I dont know where to start and the guy's not even finished yet

*Silver&Black*
09-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Lopez ahead of Horford and Bogut is funny.

Yeah, though it's good to see 3 Hawks players in the top 50 (Joe should be in top 25 when announced).

dnewguy
09-29-2010, 06:41 PM
bro your delusional pls state how d wade is better then kobe and for 3 yrs and im a celtic fan i hate kobe :facepalm:

Lets see, Wade is a more efficient scorer, better passer, better defender....well I'll give Kobe the edge on rebounding....now can you tell me why i'm delusional?

Bruno
09-29-2010, 06:42 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past.

Three years ago the Heat won 15 games and Wade had a PER of 21.5 over 51 games. During the 51 games Wade played in the Heat went 10-41. In January 2008 Wade played in every game and the Heat were 1-19. Wade has been statistically better for two, not three seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog/2008/

USMCLaker
09-29-2010, 07:20 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

I guess you don't remember how great Kobe was after Shaq was traded playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker, IE out scoring an entire team in three quarters, 81 point game, etc...and as memory serves me Dwayne Wade has never done anything close to that. Kobe's numbers have gone down in the last three years because he has better teammates now and he just won another title with a broken finger.

Or maybe you just like to start trouble which I hope is the case because I'd hate to think that someone is really as delusional as your comments make you sound.

dsickich123
09-29-2010, 07:27 PM
LOL at the title being in all caps as if this is actually a credible source. There's so much unsound about these rankings I dont know where to start and the guy's not even finished yet

Just trying to give you guys something interesting to read. Guess I am at fault for that? And i already told you that SLAM is not finished. They do two players each day. so the list will be finished in two weeks. They have an article on each player.

PurpleJesus
09-29-2010, 07:32 PM
lol at al jeff being #25

Duncan = Donkey
09-29-2010, 07:35 PM
Are they really going to leave Jason Richardson out of the top 50?

Mplsman
09-29-2010, 07:40 PM
Wow. Lotta love for Big AL.

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 08:06 PM
I stopped caring at #46 when a player who has never played a nanosecond in the NBA was listed. DIME never ceases to amaze me. At least they have cool pictures in their mag!

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 08:08 PM
I guess you don't remember how great Kobe was after Shaq was traded playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker, IE out scoring an entire team in three quarters, 81 point game, etc...and as memory serves me Dwayne Wade has never done anything close to that. Kobe's numbers have gone down in the last three years because he has better teammates now and he just won another title with a broken finger.

Or maybe you just like to start trouble which I hope is the case because I'd hate to think that someone is really as delusional as your comments make you sound.

he said, we need to judge in the PRESENT, not the PAST. Kobe has been in a 3 year decline. Blame it on whatever you like. He is no longer as individually good as LeBron or Wade. And quite frankly, statistically speaking, he isn't even top 5. But even I would have a hard time bumping him out of the top 5 overall

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 08:09 PM
Three years ago the Heat won 15 games and Wade had a PER of 21.5 over 51 games. During the 51 games Wade played in the Heat went 10-41. In January 2008 Wade played in every game and the Heat were 1-19. Wade has been statistically better for two, not three seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog/2008/

correct. The 3 years was a stretch. Wade has been better in 2 years. And Wade also put on a finals performance Kobe has never matched individually. Shoot, almost nobody has

Hustla23
09-29-2010, 08:19 PM
This is one of the more terrible lists that I have seen.

KNIXX46
09-29-2010, 11:18 PM
Ahaha Ray Allen at 50. John Wall at 46. Horrible Rankings.

seriously...j wall hasn't even played a real game yet!

HuRRiCaNeS324
09-29-2010, 11:34 PM
I guess you don't remember how great Kobe was after Shaq was traded playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker, IE out scoring an entire team in three quarters, 81 point game, etc...and as memory serves me Dwayne Wade has never done anything close to that. Kobe's numbers have gone down in the last three years because he has better teammates now and he just won another title with a broken finger.

Or maybe you just like to start trouble which I hope is the case because I'd hate to think that someone is really as delusional as your comments make you sound.

Why you are bringing up the past when he clearly states presently is beyond me. I dont expect Laker/Kobe fans to succumb to the fact that Wade is better and i don't blame them, but everyone else needs to get off his dick and forget about the past. Go to basketballreference.com and educate yourself about the two of them and come back and tell me whose been better the last two seasons.

Carter305
09-29-2010, 11:37 PM
1-5....lebron james...dwayne wade...kobe bryant...kevin durant....chris paul

oO ShowTime Oo
09-29-2010, 11:42 PM
Who's #1

oO ShowTime Oo
09-29-2010, 11:44 PM
It should be Kobe, Durant, lebron, D.Howard

jackdawson
09-29-2010, 11:48 PM
he said, we need to judge in the PRESENT, not the PAST. Kobe has been in a 3 year decline. Blame it on whatever you like. He is no longer as individually good as LeBron or Wade. And quite frankly, statistically speaking, he isn't even top 5. But even I would have a hard time bumping him out of the top 5 overall

Lakers fans don't get it and will never. I tell you what they will claim Kobe is the best until he retires. Mark my words.

The_Jamal
09-29-2010, 11:57 PM
Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

dude, whiteside got ripped... :clap: that gets me stoked

Demon11
09-30-2010, 12:06 AM
LMAO Al Jefferson at 25, ahead of Lopez, Harford, and BOGUT? LOOOOOOOOOOL

And with me bein a lil homer, i have a feeling Tyreke Evans will not be on this list. So the Rookie of the years not on this list, but Jennings, Curry, OJ Mayo and WALL are?!?!

What a horrible list. GG.

"Coach K recognized this as well when he cut Evans and kept Curry for the “B team” in this summer’s World Championships. Curry’s numbers were modest at best but he contributed when called upon and he’s part of the first USA team to win the tourney since 1994."

Are you kidding me? The reason they cut Evans is because he tweaked his ankle, i don't even think they cut him, i'm pretty sure he opted out. What a joke.

tredigs
09-30-2010, 12:16 AM
LMAO Al Jefferson at 25, ahead of Lopez, Harford, and BOGUT? LOOOOOOOOOOL

And with me bein a lil homer, i have a feeling Tyreke Evans will not be on this list. So the Rookie of the years not on this list, but Jennings, Curry, OJ Mayo and WALL are?!?!

What a horrible list. GG.

"Coach K recognized this as well when he cut Evans and kept Curry for the “B team” in this summer’s World Championships. Curry’s numbers were modest at best but he contributed when called upon and he’s part of the first USA team to win the tourney since 1994."

Are you kidding me? The reason they cut Evans is because he tweaked his ankle, i don't even think they cut him, i'm pretty sure he opted out. What a joke.

To be fair, he would've had a very small chance of making the team regardless. Curry made it due to his playmaking and 3pt ability (along with defensive prowess, also the reason Gordon made it). But the team already had two elite slashing combo guards in Rose + Westbrook. Evans wouldn't have beaten either of those guys out of the spot.

But I do think Evans should've been somewhere on this list (in the mid to late 40's). If he's actually in the top 25, then that's even worse.

Edit: And John Wall already in the top 50, having never played a game? Gtf outta here. The guy is an absolute turnover machine at this point, and we have no idea how well he will adapt playing against such a stacked position in the NBA (I'm sure he'll do fine, but let's let him prove it SLAM).

Demon11
09-30-2010, 12:18 AM
To be fair, he would've had a very small chance of making the team regardless. Curry made it due to his playmaking and 3pt ability (along with defensive prowess, also the reason Gordon made it). But the team already had two elite slashing combo guards in Rose + Westbrook. Evans wouldn't have beaten either of those guys out of the spot.

But I do think Evans should've been somewhere on this list (in the mid to late 40's). If he's actually in the top 25, then that's even worse.

I agree, Tyreke may have struggled with the way FIBA is played. And i'm actually glad he didn't play, because his ankle was already a slight problem during the season. But it just shows the ignorance of the editor, of this article.

And i personally would put Tyreke in the top 30 in this league, being a fan. But its almost impossible to put him in a fair spot considering how out of whack this list is.

jackdawson
09-30-2010, 12:20 AM
LMAO Al Jefferson at 25, ahead of Lopez, Harford, and BOGUT? LOOOOOOOOOOL

And with me bein a lil homer, i have a feeling Tyreke Evans will not be on this list. So the Rookie of the years not on this list, but Jennings, Curry, OJ Mayo and WALL are?!?!

What a horrible list. GG.

"Coach K recognized this as well when he cut Evans and kept Curry for the “B team” in this summer’s World Championships. Curry’s numbers were modest at best but he contributed when called upon and he’s part of the first USA team to win the tourney since 1994."

Are you kidding me? The reason they cut Evans is because he tweaked his ankle, i don't even think they cut him, I'm pretty sure he opted out. What a joke.

What a joke!!! This whole list is a joke. How the **** Jennings or Wall:facepalm: are in the list and not Reke. I can at least accept Curry over Reke for the sake of argument (although I think Reke is better) but Jennings and Wall? Seriously? There are many other flaws in this list. I am not gonna even bother.

Demon11
09-30-2010, 12:22 AM
What a joke!!! This whole list is a joke. How the **** Jennings or Wall:facepalm: are in the list and not Reke. I can at least accept Curry over Reke for the sake of argument (although I think Reke is better) but Jennings and Wall? Seriously? There are many other flaws in this list. I am not gonna even bother.

He might be in the top 25, but judging from the quote from my previous post, i highly doubt it.

tredigs
09-30-2010, 12:37 AM
He might be in the top 25, but judging from the quote from my previous post, i highly doubt it.

Looking at the "position rankings" (if you click on their names), you can see that Tony Parker is the highest rated point guard on the list they gave (30th overall), and he is listed as 9th among point guards. Which means that of the top 25 players, 8 of them are going to be point guards.

That leaves the obvious: Paul, Williams, Rondo, Nash, Westbrook, Billups, Rose, (that's 7) but the other is a crapshoot.

Judging by that quote where they promoted Curry and sort of shelved Tyreke aside, you're probably right that it isn't him. My guess is J. Kidd. Wouldn't sweat it, though. Although I like the depth and format of this list (each having their own write up/videos), it's full of holes and interpretation, like most ratings lists are.

Our own PSD ratings list are equally horrible imo, so we really don't have any room to talk.

Edit: Nevermind, just looked again and Kidd was listed. Only other point I can think of would be Dev Harris.

masTOR_shake1
09-30-2010, 12:41 AM
this is ********. bargnani is better than david lee.

tredigs
09-30-2010, 12:48 AM
this is ********. bargnani is better than david lee.

Do you honestly believe this? If so, why. How.

LakersMaster24
09-30-2010, 12:50 AM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

Dude, dont you have any other things to do in your life, other than post on all posts about hw supposebly wade is better than kobe? The last two minutes of a close game, is all that matters because the fourth quarter decides who wins, who loses. Just stop being such a homer.....

Demon11
09-30-2010, 12:53 AM
Looking at the "position rankings" (if you click on their names), you can see that Tony Parker is the highest rated point guard on the list they gave (30th overall), and he is listed as 9th among point guards. Which means that of the top 25 players, 8 of them are going to be point guards.

That leaves the obvious: Paul, Williams, Rondo, Nash, Westbrook, Billups, Rose, (that's 7) but the other is a crapshoot.

Judging by that quote where they promoted Curry and sort of shelved Tyreke aside, you're probably right that it isn't him. My guess is J. Kidd. Wouldn't sweat it, though. Although I like the depth and format of this list (each having their own write up/videos), it's full of holes and interpretation, like most ratings lists are.

Our own PSD ratings list are equally horrible imo, so we really don't have any room to talk.

Edit: Nevermind, just looked again and Kidd was listed. Only other point I can think of would be Dev Harris.

Wow, interesting. It might actually be Tyreke Evans, although they might list him as a Shooting Guard, which a lot of places do. And he might actually start the 2 spot this year if the training camp 1st team is the starting line up come true the second game of the season.

Korman12
09-30-2010, 01:10 AM
The rankings are completely skewed to present day, so people have to take them with a grain of salt. Plus, the fact that certain players will get better and some are in their decline factors in. I don't think I'd list them this way, but if you go on the site they elaborate their decision making better.

Korman12
09-30-2010, 01:13 AM
this is ********. bargnani is better than david lee.

No, he's not. Not right now.

mynameismo
09-30-2010, 01:27 AM
Props to the Poster. Thanks for sharing.

Thumbs down to SLAM's list.
(Although we do have crappy rankings here at PSD as well. lol)

SouthSideRookie
09-30-2010, 01:27 AM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

Maybe that's why he's going for his sixth ring.

Dude, dont you have any other things to do in your life, other than post on all posts about hw supposebly wade is better than kobe? The last two minutes of a close game, is all that matters because the fourth quarter decides who wins, who loses. Just stop being such a homer.....

It amazes me how people try to devalue Kobes accomplishments. Some try to pull out stats and say why x player is better than him, really!

There is intangibles that stats can't measure, one is having the killer instinct, the ability to close out an opponent. It doesn't suprise me though, Kobe has been hearing all this critizism for a while already, you would figure that the doubters would have realized by now.

Btw, im not a Laker fan. I actually can't stand Kobe, but I respect him and enjoy seeing one of the greats of all time play, actually it's a privilege.

USMCLaker
09-30-2010, 04:34 AM
he said, we need to judge in the PRESENT, not the PAST. Kobe has been in a 3 year decline. Blame it on whatever you like. He is no longer as individually good as LeBron or Wade. And quite frankly, statistically speaking, he isn't even top 5. But even I would have a hard time bumping him out of the top 5 overall

In fairness you can't look at the last two years without looking at the years preceeding them to understand the difference in Kobe's game.


Why you are bringing up the past when he clearly states presently is beyond me. I dont expect Laker/Kobe fans to succumb to the fact that Wade is better and i don't blame them, but everyone else needs to get off his dick and forget about the past. Go to basketballreference.com and educate yourself about the two of them and come back and tell me whose been better the last two seasons.

Can basketballreference.com rate discipline, leadership and motivation? Let me know when it does than maybe I'll take a look at it until then I'll stick with what I know wins championships.

alencp3
09-30-2010, 04:44 AM
Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

Blake Griffin is better than half of those guys

alencp3
09-30-2010, 04:49 AM
Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

Btw that kid on ur sig will be the steal of this era

bostncelts34
09-30-2010, 08:34 AM
Stopped reading after 46 when John wall is ranked above Allen,Odom,Arenas.

BOSTON617
09-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Lets see, Wade is a more efficient scorer, better passer, better defender....well I'll give Kobe the edge on rebounding....now can you tell me why i'm delusional?

ok first of kobe is the better defender.... kobe is the better scorer dont get me wrong d-wade is great #3 player in the nba #2 at sg

kobe= g.o.a.t

kobe> dwade

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 09:44 AM
Dude, dont you have any other things to do in your life, other than post on all posts about hw supposebly wade is better than kobe? The last two minutes of a close game, is all that matters because the fourth quarter decides who wins, who loses. Just stop being such a homer.....

so the other 46 minutes don't matter? And I love how many claim Kobe is so clutch, when plenty of stats out there show there are better.
The PAST does not factor into ranking someone TODAY. Its honestly the easiest concept to understand, yet missed by so many here

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 09:45 AM
In fairness you can't look at the last two years without looking at the years preceeding them to understand the difference in Kobe's game.


Can basketballreference.com rate discipline, leadership and motivation? Let me know when it does than maybe I'll take a look at it until then I'll stick with what I know wins championships.

mmkay. Regardless of our difference of opinions, the fact is, it is a rating TODAY. Wade is better. It is of my opinion he has been better for 2 seasons. But I don't care to argue that now. Last year he was better.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 09:47 AM
Maybe that's why he's going for his sixth ring.


It amazes me how people try to devalue Kobes accomplishments. Some try to pull out stats and say why x player is better than him, really!

There is intangibles that stats can't measure, one is having the killer instinct, the ability to close out an opponent. It doesn't suprise me though, Kobe has been hearing all this critizism for a while already, you would figure that the doubters would have realized by now.

Btw, im not a Laker fan. I actually can't stand Kobe, but I respect him and enjoy seeing one of the greats of all time play, actually it's a privilege.


accomplishemts are career achievements. if we continue to rate Kobe against other players in that manner, individually, year by year, than he will always be #1 to some of you, even if he is playing 8 minutes a game as a 44 year old averging 3 ppg.

jzstud4
09-30-2010, 10:23 AM
Pretty good list except KG and monta ellis ellis is always over rated and also zach randolph should not be ahead of yao ming even if ming has one leg haha

hvg
09-30-2010, 10:58 AM
Terrible terrible rankings

masalex1205
09-30-2010, 10:59 AM
iggy is always overrated

aussie
09-30-2010, 11:02 AM
Top 5:
1. LeBron James
2. Chris Paul
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwayne Wade

BaustinSali08
09-30-2010, 11:03 AM
Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

He is soooooooo good though..... theoretically :D

Avenged
09-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Why is Kobe always the target in these type of threads? envy is a great feeling among users around here.

Knicks21
09-30-2010, 11:28 AM
Just look at Noah, ranked 5th best center in the league and Horford is the 6th best. Even though Joakim didnt make the all star team and Horford did, he is obviously better *sarcasm*....:facepalm:

Grouch26
09-30-2010, 11:42 AM
correct. The 3 years was a stretch. Wade has been better in 2 years. And Wade also put on a finals performance Kobe has never matched individually. Shoot, almost nobody has

yeah u must realize that performance was a one shot deal. what has wade done since? scoring title? no mvp?no takin his team to the playoffs ranking higher than a 7th seed? no. kobe is better than wade at any point in wades career. stop this over rating of wade. yes he is a good player but dont **** on the best to try to make him look good. if it wasnt for shaq he would have never made it to the finals. wade couldnt even make it to the semi finals when he was the focus of the team.

Revolu7i9n
09-30-2010, 11:44 AM
Top 5:
1. LeBron James
2. Chris Paul
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwayne Wade

are you serious with paul at 2?? don't get me wrong, he is a dmoinant player. but not #2 in the NBA.

this thread is a homerfest...

Revolu7i9n
09-30-2010, 11:45 AM
ok first of kobe is the better defender.... kobe is the better scorer dont get me wrong d-wade is great #3 player in the nba #2 at sg

kobe= g.o.a.t

kobe> dwade

I call BS.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 11:59 AM
yeah u must realize that performance was a one shot deal. what has wade done since? scoring title? no mvp?no takin his team to the playoffs ranking higher than a 7th seed? no. kobe is better than wade at any point in wades career. stop this over rating of wade. yes he is a good player but dont **** on the best to try to make him look good. if it wasnt for shaq he would have never made it to the finals. wade couldnt even make it to the semi finals when he was the focus of the team.

ah, now your bringing in the age old roster support argument. I won't even waste my time here

dsickich123
09-30-2010, 12:33 PM
Russell Westbrook at #24.

New article about him. Good read.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2010/09/top-50-russell-westbrook-no-24/

I feel as though Tyreke Evans (who has not been listed yet) is ranked way too high.

IMO, if we stick in point guards, Westbrook and Parker and Curry are all better than Tyreke.

HuRRiCaNeS324
09-30-2010, 12:37 PM
People need to stop trying to be politicly correct and just look at the freaking stats....

Jacks3
09-30-2010, 01:03 PM
lol @ wade being better than kobe when kobe is literally better at everything except shot-blocking/stealing/play-making. kobe is the better mid-range shooter, three-point shooter, equal passer, on-ball defender, better post-up game, better re-bounder, more range. dude is basically a upgraded version of wade. you heat homers are ridiculous. lol

Khalifa21
09-30-2010, 01:12 PM
Why is Kobe always the target in these type of threads? envy is a great feeling among users around here.

I feel like LeBron is more of a target in these threads now, but I think that's for the same reason you mention...

ZebraCity916
09-30-2010, 01:12 PM
Not to mention that there shouldn't be one rookie ranked...seeing as how John Wall has played 0 NBA regular season games.

Exactly. Hasn't even played a game yet and already he's apparently better than a future HOFer?? Ridiculous. :facepalm:

Korman12
09-30-2010, 01:12 PM
lol @ wade being better than kobe when kobe is literally better at everything except shot-blocking/stealing/play-making. kobe is the better mid-range shooter, three-point shooter, equal passer, on-ball defender, better post-up game, better re-bounder, more range. dude is basically a upgraded version of wade. you heat homers are ridiculous. lol

Lower FG%, lower FT rate (not FT %), less AST's per game

Jacks3
09-30-2010, 01:25 PM
Lower FG%, lower FT rate (not FT %), less AST's per game

lol FG%. look at their TS%'s over the years. nearly identical with kobe usually having the higher volume. the only reason the gap was bigger in 2010 is because kobe was injured. and he still managed to post a higher TS% (57%) in the playoffs than wade did in the regular season. and yes, i know wade had a absurd TS% in the Boston series, but kobe has a much larger sample size (23 games). ft rate doesn't concern what im talking about. kobe is the the much better ft shooter. look at the percentages. as for assists, i already said wade is the better play-maker because he's a slasher who plays in a pick/roll system surround by shooters. that type of offense will lead to assists. however, that doesn't make him a better passer than kobe. they're about equal there--similar technical prowess, similar vision/awareness etc etc

BOSTON617
09-30-2010, 01:29 PM
I call BS.

ya thats somthin u can argue but d-wade bing palced before kobe is just dumb

leoncito
09-30-2010, 01:36 PM
As much as i dislike Kobe there is no way Wade has been better than him the last three years

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 01:42 PM
lol FG%. look at their TS%'s over the years. nearly identical with kobe usually having the higher volume. the only reason the gap was bigger in 2010 is because kobe was injured. and he still managed to post a higher TS% (57%) in the playoffs than wade did in the regular season. and yes, i know wade had a absurd TS% in the Boston series, but kobe has a much larger sample size (23 games). ft rate doesn't concern what im talking about. kobe is the the much better ft shooter. look at the percentages. as for assists, i already said wade is the better play-maker because he's a slasher who plays in a pick/roll system surround by shooters. that type of offense will lead to assists. however, that doesn't make him a better passer than kobe. they're about equal there--similar technical prowess, similar vision/awareness etc etc

13 win shares on a 47 win team versus 9 on a 57 win team shows Wade's statistical value. His offensive rating was better, and he has become a better defender. Wade has been better, individually, for 2 seasons now. Blame it on whatever you like, but its in the numbers.
And TS% shows offensive efficiency, and Wade's is higher. And Wade also torched a Boston team that completey zoned in on him, while Kobe struggled.

Age hits everyone. Games played hits everyone. I don't know if Wade, currently, can match what Kobe was in his peak, but he sure is close.

Jacks3
09-30-2010, 01:48 PM
13 win shares on a 47 win team versus 9 on a 57 win team shows Wade's statistical value. His offensive rating was better, and he has become a better defender. Wade has been better, individually, for 2 seasons now. Blame it on whatever you like, but its in the numbers.
And TS% shows offensive efficiency, and Wade's is higher. And Wade also torched a Boston team that completey zoned in on him, while Kobe struggled.

Age hits everyone. Games played hits everyone. I don't know if Wade, currently, can match what Kobe was in his peak, but he sure is close.

no, kobe is still the better player.kobe is the better mid-range shooter, three-point shooter, equal passer, on-ball defender, better post-up game, better re-bounder, more range. dude is basically a upgraded version of wade. i already said that kobe was injured the entire 09-10 season AND plays on a better team. your stats are useless without context. i already brought up the boston series. and kobe still managed to put up 29/8/4/2/1 on 53% TS vs Boston despite playing with a broken finder and a knee that needed to be surgically fixed. hardly "struggling".

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 02:12 PM
no, kobe is still the better player.kobe is the better mid-range shooter, three-point shooter, equal passer, on-ball defender, better post-up game, better re-bounder, more range. dude is basically a upgraded version of wade. i already said that kobe was injured the entire 09-10 season AND plays on a better team. your stats are useless without context. i already brought up the boston series. and kobe still managed to put up 29/8/4/2/1 on 53% TS vs Boston despite playing with a broken finder and a knee that needed to be surgically fixed. hardly "struggling".

like I said, you can blame it on injuries, or whatever else you like. Statistically speaking, Kobe is on a 3 year decline. And do you have any way of backing up your claims? Kobe is indeed a slightly better rebounder, and a better mid range shooter. I will give you that. But Wade understands his liablities, and becomes more efficient scoring than Kobe by a high foul draw rate, completely negating any advantage from 18 feet Kobe may have.
Defensively, please prove your statements before I bother flipping over and copying and pasting for you.

And as I said above, Wade's contributions lead to more wins statistically.

Jacks3
09-30-2010, 02:26 PM
like I said, you can blame it on injuries, or whatever else you like. Statistically speaking, Kobe is on a 3 year decline. And do you have any way of backing up your claims? Kobe is indeed a slightly better rebounder, and a better mid range shooter. I will give you that. But Wade understands his liablities, and becomes more efficient scoring than Kobe by a high foul draw rate, completely negating any advantage from 18 feet Kobe may have.
Defensively, please prove your statements before I bother flipping over and copying and pasting for you.

And as I said above, Wade's contributions lead to more wins statistically.

yeah, im sure his 3 yr decline "statistically" has nothing to do with the fact that his TEAM has gotten better, right? watch the 08,09,2010 playoffs( after having knee drained). he'd have absolutely no problem putting up those big statistical years if he needed to:rolleyes: and injuries clearly had a huge impact on his season. you can't just ignore that if you're going to compare them statistically. lol @ completely ignoring context. wade is NOT "much more" efficient. like i said, when healthy kobe has nearly identical ts% numbers on similar/higher volume. as for defense, wade is the better help/team defender while kobe is the better on-ball/man-to-man defender. thats not something you can "prove" because anyone who follows basketball knows that defense isn't something that can be quantified. its not offense. you have to, you know, actually watch the games.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 02:36 PM
yeah, im sure his 3 yr decline "statistically" has nothing to do with the fact that his TEAM has gotten better, right? watch the 08,09,2010 playoffs( after having knee drained). he'd have absolutely no problem putting up those big statistical years if he needed to:rolleyes: and injuries clearly had a huge impact on his season. you can't just ignore that if you're going to compare them statistically. lol @ completely ignoring context. wade is NOT "much more" efficient. like i said, when healthy kobe has nearly identical ts% numbers on similar/higher volume. as for defense, wade is the better help/team defender while kobe is the better on-ball/man-to-man defender. thats not something you can "prove" because anyone who follows basketball knows that defense isn't something that can be quantified. its not offense. you have to, you know, actually watch the games.

man, I have never heard this response before. Since you want to continue to blame injuries, etc for a 3 year fall off, and claim his team is the reason his efficiency has continued to drop (when it should help your efficiency), and refuse to believe there are metrics out there that do indeed show a good amount of information on man to man defense, you throw the "watch the game" out there.
Cmon, you can do better than that.

IF Yao were healthy the last 2 years, he is better than Dwight. Guess what, he wasn't. If's are not reality unfortunately. Wade vs Kobe is a close argument when compared to LeBron vs Kobe, I do agree with that. But its still Wade individually. I am not bringing PER into this because it values shot creation quite a bit, so one would expect Wade's to be much higher, which it is. But the other numbers are right there. Add that with WATCHING the game, as any fan should do, and its a little more clear for you.

Again, please explain your statements. if your eyes are your evidence, I don't feel the need to debate on this any further

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 02:39 PM
by the way, here is Kobe vs Wade, peak statistical years

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=wadedw01&y2=2009

footballer2369
09-30-2010, 02:45 PM
yeah u must realize that performance was a one shot deal. what has wade done since? scoring title? no mvp?no takin his team to the playoffs ranking higher than a 7th seed? no. kobe is better than wade at any point in wades career. stop this over rating of wade. yes he is a good player but dont **** on the best to try to make him look good. if it wasnt for shaq he would have never made it to the finals. wade couldnt even make it to the semi finals when he was the focus of the team.

I'm not sure if your grammar is terrible or if you're saying that he hasn't done these things since then, because he has....

5th seed last two years, scoring title the year before.

Jacks3
09-30-2010, 02:56 PM
man, I have never heard this response before. Since you want to continue to blame injuries, etc for a 3 year fall off, and claim his team is the reason his efficiency has continued to drop (when it should help your efficiency), and refuse to believe there are metrics out there that do indeed show a good amount of information on man to man defense, you throw the "watch the game" out there.
Cmon, you can do better than that.

IF Yao were healthy the last 2 years, he is better than Dwight. Guess what, he wasn't. If's are not reality unfortunately. Wade vs Kobe is a close argument when compared to LeBron vs Kobe, I do agree with that. But its still Wade individually. I am not bringing PER into this because it values shot creation quite a bit, so one would expect Wade's to be much higher, which it is. But the other numbers are right there. Add that with WATCHING the game, as any fan should do, and its a little more clear for you.

Again, please explain your statements. if your eyes are your evidence, I don't feel the need to debate on this any further

LOL. even the top stats guys like hollinger, berri etc admit that there really are no good statistical measures of man-to-man defense and help defense. you could bring up DRTG/Defensive PER etc but i dont think they show a good job of showing of actual defensive play. lol @ you continuing to ignore my posts. like i said, the 3-yr drop-off is a myth. his TEAM has simply gotten much better, which means he doesn't have to do as much. i really dont understand why you cant get this. like i said, watch the 08,09, 2010 playoffs. when his team has needed him to, he's shown that he can still step up to the plate statistically and get it done. the yao arguemnt makes no sense because he's a guy who is consistently injured and has sat out tons of games because of that. kobe, on the other hand, was remarkably healthy between 05-09. what we saw in 2010 was an aberration that clearly affected his performance especially his FT%, TO%, and 3PT%. thats just fact. like i said, kobe is easily better individually when both are healthy.

scoring? kobe (higher volume on nearly identical efficiency, greater explosiveness, greater skill-set)
play-making? wade( much quicker/faster, which allows him to get into the lane and generate those drive-and-kick passes to shooter. plus, he plays in a P/R offense where the ball is consistently in his hands, while kobe plays in the triangle offense which hinders assist numbers. )
re-bounding? kobe ( taller, longer. better RPG numbers. higher TRB% numbers)
passing? equal/slight edge to wade maybe( APG are not indicators of passing proficiency. in a technical sense (bounce passes, chest passes, passing out of doubles) there's little difference between them. kobe has the lower tov%, though. but there court vision, awareness, flashiness is about equal)
man-to-man defense? kobe
help defense? wade


skill-set
mid-range shooting (kobe)
three-pt shooting (kobe)
ball-handling ( wade)
post-up game (kobe)
range/ability to shoot from anywhere on court (kobe)

intangibles
work-ethic( kobe imo)
competitiveness (equal)
leadership (kobe imo)



overall kobe is better (slightly) but he is.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 03:10 PM
I am not ignoring your posts in the slightest bro, but you aren't providing anything I haven't already seen. Defense is a very difficult measure to find, but Kobe gives up higher percentages to the player he is guarding, and gives up more points per possession. How does he score at a higher volume than Wade? The Lakers play a higher pace than the Heat, so Kobe has about 320 more possessions a year to work with.
Measuring intangibles is a total matter of opinion, I don't feel the need to debate those since there is no proof.

Injuries happen. Nobody said in 2007 IF Wade was healthy, watch out. Kobe will be 100% this year. Here is his chance to reclaim his efficiency that has dropped continually over the past 3-4 years.

Efficiency dropping because your team gets better is a myth. If anything, they should go up. Its just a matter of timing. Kobe's slow decline started the year before Gasol came. It has continued. However, his roster is the best in the NBA for a supporting cast to a star, by quite a bit. So he is able to take plays off, go nights without guarding the opposing teams best player (Artest), and can go 30 games without having any good shooting games against good teams (check the last 30 games of last regular season), and his team feels minimal effect.

Simply put, when you evaluate a player, you must remove them from the team they play for, stand them next to each other, and compare. Roster support only helps in the win column. It doesn't hinder/help the individual all that much. If anything, a dominant supporting cast should increase your numbers, and vice versa, having nothing around you to finish plays or contribute should hurt it.

Hawkeye15
09-30-2010, 03:12 PM
done with this. its a broken record everytime this comes along. Everyone here is fully aware of my opinion on this subject

sep11ie
09-30-2010, 03:19 PM
If you look at the date, that is from 2009. It looks like only this year's top 25 is complete, and if you scroll back, it is last years rankings.

How is John Wall on there then?

Demon11
10-12-2010, 06:56 AM
Well, looks like i was wrong, Tyreke at 22.. :)

alencp3
10-12-2010, 07:05 AM
Well, looks like i was wrong, Tyreke at 22.. :)

Top 8 by the end of the next season

Demon11
10-12-2010, 07:22 AM
Top 8 by the end of the next season

Screw that.. top 5..

Jemikz9Clutch
10-12-2010, 08:32 AM
the wade vs bryant debate was epic. haha! where's mike james ranked btw? lol

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 11:19 AM
why would I care about surveys? Nostalgia goes a long way in votes, as does winning (which is a team thing).
I would stop calling people idiots if you want to stick around PSD

DaBUU
10-12-2010, 11:19 AM
just throwing it out there......

DRose #12


Rondo #17

mavwar53
10-12-2010, 11:26 AM
3 warriors in top 40, that SHOULD mean playoffs but will it happen???

tangent12
10-12-2010, 12:21 PM
DRose #12!! Haha! Well deserved. Glad to see overrated Rondo be put where he deserves.

Rose should easily crack into the top 10 by the end of this season.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2010/10/top-50-derrick-rose-no-12/

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 12:33 PM
DRose #12!! Haha! Well deserved. Glad to see overrated Rondo be put where he deserves.

Rose should easily crack into the top 10 by the end of this season.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2010/10/top-50-derrick-rose-no-12/

he isn't even in the conversation for top 2 PG's. No way he should be at #12, and I can't see him moving into the top 10 unless his distribution ability rises dramatically. Still, with a minimum of 4 wings, and a few bigs in there, there isnt room for 3 PG's imo

ecorrea
10-12-2010, 12:37 PM
he isn't even in the conversation for top 2 PG's. No way he should be at #12, and I can't see him moving into the top 10 unless his distribution ability rises dramatically. Still, with a minimum of 4 wings, and a few bigs in there, there isnt room for 3 PG's imo

read the article. its pretty well written and does back up #12 quite well..

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 12:39 PM
read the article. its pretty well written and does back up #12 quite well..

cool. could care less

ecorrea
10-12-2010, 12:40 PM
cool. could care less

well if you could care less why did u post about it.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 12:42 PM
well if you could care less why did u post about it.

I don't care about the writers opinion. I stated mine. Rose is not a top 12 player yet. And I don't see how he moves into top 10 when you have LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Deron, Durant, Pau, Roy, Melo, and probably more ahead of him

tangent12
10-12-2010, 12:44 PM
read the article. its pretty well written and does back up #12 quite well..


well if you could care less why did u post about it.


This ^

And Hawk, I may consider your opinion over Slams when you have your own magazine and it gets successful enough so that people actually care about your list. For now I think i'll rather go with the ranking and opinion of a professional established magazine. Kthanks.

ecorrea
10-12-2010, 12:46 PM
I don't care about the writers opinion. I stated mine. Rose is not a top 12 player yet. And I don't see how he moves into top 10 when you have LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Deron, Durant, Pau, Roy, Melo, and probably more ahead of him

ok fair.

this season going forward, i personally dont see anyone behind him that should be ahead of him after looking over the list.

Revolu7i9n
10-12-2010, 12:55 PM
cool. could care less

which is why most would consider you biased.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 12:55 PM
This ^

And Hawk, I may consider your opinion over Slams when you have your own magazine and it gets successful enough so that people actually care about your list. For now I think i'll rather go with the ranking and opinion of a professional established magazine. Kthanks.

Slam online is hardly a reputable mag dude. But I know you have a major dislike of Rondo, so I wouldn't expect your opinion on the subject to have much rational

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 12:56 PM
which is why most would consider you biased.

come again?

DaBUU
10-12-2010, 12:59 PM
I don't care about the writers opinion. I stated mine. Rose is not a top 12 player yet. And I don't see how he moves into top 10 when you have LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Dwight, CP3, Deron, Durant, Pau, Roy, Melo, and probably more ahead of him

But this thread is about Slam Mag's top 50, not Hawkeye15 Mag's Top 50. Its well written and makes a very strong and rational argument for him being at #12, but once again posters on PSD know better.

ecorrea
10-12-2010, 01:00 PM
hawkeye15 when i said hey check out the article, its good... that was like me saying hey thats my opinion on why hes #12 as a response to your opinion why hes not.

however i get a cool i could care less from you. i mean come on, tryin to have a debate of sorts but you are too busy just dismissing stuff..

slam online isnt reputable, ok sure, but the article was still very factual and good.

Heater4life
10-12-2010, 01:14 PM
by the way, here is Kobe vs Wade, peak statistical years

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=wadedw01&y2=2009

I keep stats like these close to my heart. When ive seen a player like Wade perform like one of the better players to ever put a jersey on and get discredited, it hurts my fan hood towards the game of basketball. Hes a great player and should get some respect and acknowledgement.

ecorrea
10-12-2010, 01:21 PM
I keep stats like these close to my heart. When ive seen a player like Wade perform like one of the better players to ever put a jersey on and get discredited, it hurts my fan hood towards the game of basketball. Hes a great player and should get some respect and acknowledgement.

do u think slam will put him at 1?

DaBUU
10-12-2010, 01:28 PM
right off the bat I wanna say Kobe is better, but there is an argument in there that Wade has been just as productive just without the better supporting cast. I think Kobe ends up #1, Wade ends up #3.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 01:36 PM
But this thread is about Slam Mag's top 50, not Hawkeye15 Mag's Top 50. Its well written and makes a very strong and rational argument for him being at #12, but once again posters on PSD know better.

I understand that. But I don't have to agree with it. I love how some on this site will blow up with appreciation if the article includes their man, and then turn around and crap on another writer if they don't share the same opinion. It could have been written by Daniel Steele, but I simply don't agree with Rose being ranked #12.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 01:39 PM
hawkeye15 when i said hey check out the article, its good... that was like me saying hey thats my opinion on why hes #12 as a response to your opinion why hes not.

however i get a cool i could care less from you. i mean come on, tryin to have a debate of sorts but you are too busy just dismissing stuff..

slam online isnt reputable, ok sure, but the article was still very factual and good.

I apologize if the response was not what you were looking for. As I stated, its not the writing I disagree with. The thing is, there have been enough Rose debates to last a lifetime. Why would I want to get into another pointless one? I stated imo Rose is not a top 12 player in the NBA. I listed, off the top of my head, 10 better. If I dug deeper, I would find more.
PSD is a matter of opinions. We just had a Rondo thread go immediately down the crapper due to a handful of Bulls fans who can't fathom the thought of giving credit to any PG not named Rose. What makes you think I feel the need or desire to debate one of the few players that PSD turns into an irrational war over?

MLB2K10King
10-12-2010, 01:49 PM
At some point we are gonna have to start judging on present, not the past. Wade has been better than Kobe for 3 years now, and still people are judging Kobe solely based on his past. The last 2 minutes of a 4th quarter doesn't make the whole game....no one here can tell me Kobe is a better 48 mins player than Wade...maybe better with 2 minutes left in 4th quarter, but if he was on a wack team, there won't be no 2 minutes left for Kobe to look good.

My Friend, I understand that you are a Huge Wade fan and rightfully so but for a full 48 minutes Dwane Wade is Not better than Kobe Bryant, let us count the ways.

Kobe Bryant is a Way better post player
The Stats dont show it but Way Better Passer
Way Better Rebounder,
Far Superior Defender
Higher Basketball IQ
Better Outside Shot
More Versatile on the Court
Out right Better Scorer (Although I'm basing this on Highest Scoring totals from the past) Kobe-81 Wade 55
Better Freethrow Shooter- Kobe Career 850 Wade Career 770
Yup Kobe is just Better overall Sorry

Jacks3
10-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Kobe is coming off a playoff run where he put up 29 PPG/6 APG/6 RPG/1.5 SPG on 57% TS over 23 games. He's definitely #2 behind LeBron.

llemon
10-12-2010, 02:16 PM
All a matter of opinion

Dnovakovic099
10-12-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't know why you homers even bother arguing Wade vs. Kobe. You Heat homer are idiots when you bring up stats, and then completely disregard that Kobe has Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, and Andrew Bynum on his team. Do you think Wade's stats are gonna become better with LeBron and Bosh on the Heat now? If they do then I stand to be corrected, but everything points to his stats declining. There is a reason KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce's stats have all declined and it's not just age. Also you arguing that Wade is better due to stats don't realize stats don't mean jack ****! The Suns in their prime a few years ago had ridiculous regular season stats and they couldn't ever make the NBA finals. Also, Wade is injury prone. I know I know Kobe has been injured lately, but Dwayne Wade has played 207 games the last three years while Kobe has played 273! So Kobe will give you an average of 20 games more a season! Anyone who tells me Wade is a better defender just look at the Olympics and then try to argue that. Plus, is there any doubt a team of Kobe, LeBron, and Bosh wins a Championship? I don't think so. There is just a diffrent feel when mentioning Kobe and LeBron together than Wade and Lebron. Kobe is just a gamer. Also, those of you saying Wade and LeBron are better defenders. Correct me if I am wrong, but game after game Kobe guards the best player on the court while the other two play the passing lanes.

P.S. I hate the Lakers. Go Bulls!

Dnovakovic099
10-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Plus DRose is ranked too high.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 02:59 PM
I don't know why you homers even bother arguing Wade vs. Kobe. You Heat homer are idiots when you bring up stats, and then completely disregard that Kobe has Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, and Andrew Bynum on his team. Do you think Wade's stats are gonna become better with LeBron and Bosh on the Heat now? If they do then I stand to be corrected, but everything points to his stats declining. There is a reason KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce's stats have all declined and it's not just age. Also you arguing that Wade is better due to stats don't realize stats don't mean jack ****! The Suns in their prime a few years ago had ridiculous regular season stats and they couldn't ever make the NBA finals. Also, Wade is injury prone. I know I know Kobe has been injured lately, but Dwayne Wade has played 207 games the last three years while Kobe has played 273! So Kobe will give you an average of 20 games more a season! Anyone who tells me Wade is a better defender just look at the Olympics and then try to argue that. Plus, is there any doubt a team of Kobe, LeBron, and Bosh wins a Championship? I don't think so. There is just a diffrent feel when mentioning Kobe and LeBron together than Wade and Lebron. Kobe is just a gamer. Also, those of you saying Wade and LeBron are better defenders. Correct me if I am wrong, but game after game Kobe guards the best player on the court while the other two play the passing lanes.

P.S. I hate the Lakers. Go Bulls!


how do you define stats? Cause the reason stats are brought up are because Wade's advanced numbers are better than Kobe's now. While I don't want to continue a debate on Wade vs Kobe, because I have said all I need to, I am interested in what you mean

D-Will4Prez
10-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Overall I'm liking the list so far, but Bogut at 39 is just ridiculous to me. WTF. :facepalm:

Plus DRose ahead of Rondo :facepalm: does defense and hustle mean nothing these days?

D-Will4Prez
10-12-2010, 03:35 PM
I am going to facepalm myself to death if Bynum is in the top 11...

nycericanguy
10-12-2010, 03:39 PM
Devin Harris over Rondo? Garnett at this stage over Amare & Bosh? I stopped reading after the D Harris over Rondo thing...lol.

CityofChaos
10-12-2010, 03:44 PM
Harris>Rondo? Will someone please explain (or at least attempt to).

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:05 PM
Harris>Rondo? Will someone please explain (or at least attempt to).

Easy....

Harris is younger, less injury prone, a better defender, shoots a higher FG%, averages more assists, more steals, more rebounds, and plays for a winning team.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 04:10 PM
Easy....

Harris is younger, less injury prone, a better defender, shoots a higher FG%, averages more assists, more steals, more rebounds, and plays for a winning team.

haha, I am sure you are being facetious here, but you just explained Rondo

_Supreme_
10-12-2010, 04:17 PM
Why do some of you people keep concerning yourself so much with these garbage top x individual player lists that are produced by all these garbage sources.

Basketball is a team game.

It is not like your weener sizes depend on whether some Joe-nobodies working for some internet magazine think player A is better than player B.

Derrick Rose is not the #12 "best" player in the NBA. It is absolute 100% nonsense, but who the feth cares. If you are a Derrick Rose fan he is your #1 guy and nobody needs to give a damn where he is put on a meaningless list. The same goes for every other player.

And please, not the Wade/Kobe debate again. Kobe fans have been sniffing so much Kobe-glue at their altars of worship for such a long time that they still manage to claim things like that he is a better passer and better team player without caring that their noses instantly grow five inches. Get out of your delirium and off that pink cloud.

But it doesn't matter, because if he is your favorite man-crush person that is fine. The same goes for Wade, Lebron, Shaq, Pops Mensah Bonsu and whoever else makes you hot and excited.

How can, for example, John Wall already be counted as the #x best player in the NBA when he hasn't even played one official game yet? It is an insult to many other players who have been busting their arses for many years already to see a rookie placed ahead of them like that, and don't get me wrong I like John Wall and I think he will a extremely good player, but putting him on a list now is just stupid nonsense.

BOSTON617
10-12-2010, 04:19 PM
Easy....

Harris is younger, less injury prone, a better defender, shoots a higher FG%, averages more assists, more steals, more rebounds, and plays for a winning team.

:facepalm:

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:20 PM
haha, I am sure you are being facetious here, but you just explained Rondo

;)

_Supreme_
10-12-2010, 04:22 PM
:facepalm:

I see you failed to understand what he did there :sigh:

John Walls Era
10-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Bosh over Nash? Iffy on that one. I'm ok with him higher than Amare though.

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Overall I'm liking the list so far, but Bogut at 39 is just ridiculous to me. WTF. :facepalm:

Plus DRose ahead of Rondo :facepalm: does defense and hustle mean nothing these days?

rose at number 12 is sweet

Hawkeye15
10-12-2010, 04:23 PM
Why do some of you people keep concerning yourself so much with these garbage top x individual player lists that are produced by all these garbage sources.

Basketball is a team game.

It is not like your weener sizes depend on whether some Joe-nobodies working for some internet magazine think player A is better than player B.

Derrick Rose is not the #12 "best" player in the NBA. It is absolute 100% nonsense, but who the feth cares. If you are a Derrick Rose fan he is your #1 guy and nobody needs to give a damn where he is put on a meaningless list. The same goes for every other player.

And please, not the Wade/Kobe debate again. Kobe fans have been sniffing so much Kobe-glue at their altars of worship for such a long time that they still manage to claim things like that he is a better passer and better team player without caring that their noses instantly grow five inches. Get out of your delirium and off that pink cloud.

But it doesn't matter, because if he is your favorite man-crush person that is fine. The same goes for Wade, Lebron, Shaq, Pops Mensah Bonsu and whoever else makes you hot and excited.

How can, for example, John Wall already be counted as the #x best player in the NBA when he hasn't even played one official game yet? It is an insult for many other players who have been busting their arses for many years already to see a rookie placed ahead of them like that, and don't get me wrong I like John Wall, but it just stupid nonsense.

pretty much dude. Like I said, many will claim that the opinions of these sportswriters are more valid than some here. Um, they basically get paid to do the same thing many here do. They are OPINIONS. There is no way on earth Rose is the #12 player in the NBA. None.
Homerism and irrationality are abundant here, but its nothing new to the sports world. My friend is such a Rockets homer, he honestly said he wouldn't give up Brooks and Battier for Chris Paul when I asked him a while ago. There are just some fans that can not look beyond their own team, and accept any rational when debating players/teams.
PSD is for open discussion. There is never a need for pointless arguments because you think your guy is better than theirs. If you do think this, make a valid, rational argument in a calm manner, and you will get more response, and more respect. So many continue to fail to grasp this concept

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:25 PM
what I dont get is david west over noah???? now thats just crazy

llemon
10-12-2010, 04:26 PM
Why do some of you people keep concerning yourself so much with these garbage top x individual player lists that are produced by all these garbage sources.

Excellent question.

I'd love for one of these posters to answer it.

DaBUU
10-12-2010, 04:31 PM
Overall I'm liking the list so far, but Bogut at 39 is just ridiculous to me. WTF. :facepalm:

Plus DRose ahead of Rondo :facepalm: does defense and hustle mean nothing these days?


:facepalm:

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:32 PM
what I dont get is david west over noah???? now thats just crazy

Of all the poor rankings, that's the one that's "just crazy"?

Do you actually think Noah contributes to more wins for the Bulls than West does for the Hornets? Do you think Noah is better at his role for the Bulls than West is at his role for the Hornets?

Even for direct comparison of stats, Noah only gives 3.5 more rebounds and 0.9 more blocks... every other category West beats him in (PPG, FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AST, STL). So I don't understand what's "just crazy" about that.

Stunner
10-12-2010, 04:32 PM
Rose isnt the 12th best but he is top 25.

Stunner
10-12-2010, 04:33 PM
Of all the poor rankings, that's the one that's "just crazy"?

Do you actually think Noah contributes to more wins for the Bulls than West does for the Hornets? Do you think Noah is better at his role for the Bulls than West is at his role for the Hornets?

Yeah West is better than Noah but when Noah was hurt the Bulls went on a 10 game losing streak. Im jus saying.

iFYouSeekAmy
10-12-2010, 04:33 PM
When I saw John Wall up there, I didn't even bother reading the rest.

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:34 PM
But this thread is about Slam Mag's top 50, not Hawkeye15 Mag's Top 50. Its well written and makes a very strong and rational argument for him being at #12, but once again posters on PSD know better.

exactly...... I mean there are some dumb sports writers and lists, but this is slam, a very respectable magazine. some people just do not like to see past their hatred for someone

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:36 PM
Of all the poor rankings, that's the one that's "just crazy"?

Do you actually think Noah contributes to more wins for the Bulls than West does for the Hornets? Do you think Noah is better at his role for the Bulls than West is at his role for the Hornets?

Even for direct comparison of stats, Noah only gives 3.5 more rebounds and 0.9 more blocks... every other category West beats him in (PPG, FG%, 3PT%, FT%, AST, STL). So I don't understand what's "just crazy" about that.

ummmm yes I do...... look at the bulls record when noah is not playing compared to the hornets

_Supreme_
10-12-2010, 04:36 PM
pretty much dude. Like I said, many will claim that the opinions of these sportswriters are more valid than some here. Um, they basically get paid to do the same thing many here do. They are OPINIONS. There is no way on earth Rose is the #12 player in the NBA. None.


Of course.

It is a sports writers' job to make people read their stuff. If people do, then their employers are happy, and most fans fail to understand that because of this almost every single sports writer has a certain set of agendas & politics.

One of the agendas basically all of them have in common because their employers consider it a must = get the large sports markets to read your crap, and you do that by presenting them words they like to read. If you overrate a Chicago guy and put him higher on your list than he should realisticly be the Chicago fans will remember your name and come back to you later because you fill their minds with happy thoughts.

This is how propaganda and brainwashing works. It's a proven method that the masses of sheep fall for every single time.

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:38 PM
so according to slam....... the bulls have two of the top 20 players...... not bad at all

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:44 PM
ummmm yes I do...... look at the bulls record when noah is not playing compared to the hornets

Contributing to wins and the team losing are two separate things.

I could make a nonsense correlation to Baron Davis' health and the Clippers losing streaks, but that's not smart because they aren't a very good team either way so it would be pointless. The Bulls were just a mediocre team last season and more than just Noah was injured at any one point.

Noah doesn't win any more games for the Bulls with his direct in game impact than West does for the Hornets. Noah could have a bad game and the Bulls still win, Noah could have a very good game and the Bulls still lose. His impact just isn't that big.

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Contributing to wins and the team losing are two separate things.

I could make a nonsense correlation to Baron Davis' health and the Clippers losing streaks, but that's not smart because they aren't a very good team either way so it would be pointless. The Bulls were just a mediocre team last season and more than just Noah was injured at any one point.

Noah doesn't win any more games for the Bulls with his direct in game impact than West does for the Hornets. Noah could have a bad game and the Bulls still win, Noah could have a very good game and the Bulls still lose. His impact just isn't that big.

just ut it this way, if the bulls offered noah for west, i bet you the hornets tke that deal in a heart beat

KG2TB
10-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Contributing to wins and the team losing are two separate things.

I could make a nonsense correlation to Baron Davis' health and the Clippers losing streaks, but that's not smart because they aren't a very good team either way so it would be pointless. The Bulls were just a mediocre team last season and more than just Noah was injured at any one point.

Noah doesn't win any more games for the Bulls with his direct in game impact than West does for the Hornets. Noah could have a bad game and the Bulls still win, Noah could have a very good game and the Bulls still lose. His impact just isn't that big.

You're making yourself seem very ignorant. Keep it up.

Stunner
10-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Contributing to wins and the team losing are two separate things.

I could make a nonsense correlation to Baron Davis' health and the Clippers losing streaks, but that's not smart because they aren't a very good team either way so it would be pointless. The Bulls were just a mediocre team last season and more than just Noah was injured at any one point.

Noah doesn't win any more games for the Bulls with his direct in game impact than West does for the Hornets. Noah could have a bad game and the Bulls still win, Noah could have a very good game and the Bulls still lose. His impact just isn't that big.

Bulls were a decent team last year believe it or not they had a better record than the Bucks and where trying to catch the Heat and there Playoff spot. But that 10 game losing streak really hurt them along with the injuries to Rose and Noah during that stage. But the Bulls werent as bad of a team as people say last year. Its tuff when when three of your main players get hurt. But thats no reason. And Noah impact is big for the Bulls team. His energy and defense sets the tone for games for us.

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:51 PM
just ut it this way, if the bulls offered noah for west, i bet you the hornets tke that deal in a heart beat

I seriously doubt that.

Okafor would make a poor PF at this point in his career, and West is an expirer while Noah just got a long term deal paying him way more than West ever made in his career.

DLeeicious
10-12-2010, 04:51 PM
Contributing to wins and the team losing are two separate things.

I could make a nonsense correlation to Baron Davis' health and the Clippers losing streaks, but that's not smart because they aren't a very good team either way so it would be pointless. The Bulls were just a mediocre team last season and more than just Noah was injured at any one point.

Noah doesn't win any more games for the Bulls with his direct in game impact than West does for the Hornets. Noah could have a bad game and the Bulls still win, Noah could have a very good game and the Bulls still lose. His impact just isn't that big.

Holy ****. So what you are doing right now (and post above this) is taking arbitrary stats to compare 2 completely different players and then using those stats to randomly assess ones contribution to their respective teams wins? Does that sound about right?

lol

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Bulls were a decent team last year believe it or not they had a better record than the Bucks and where trying to catch the Heat and there Playoff spot. But that 10 game losing streak really hurt them along with the injuries to Rose and Noah during that stage. But the Bulls werent as bad of a team as people say last year. Its tuff when when three of your main players get hurt. But thats no reason.

The Bulls were still going to be a bottom half playoff team with no shot at a championship even if everyone was 100% healthy and playing to their full potential.

That's what I call mediocre... you might have your own definition. Just for reference the Heat was also a mediocre team even with 47 wins.

Stunner
10-12-2010, 04:54 PM
I seriously doubt that.

Okafor would make a poor PF at this point in his career, and West is an expirer while Noah just got a long term deal paying him way more than West ever made in his career.

Isnt Okafor like 26 or 27. He is in his prime and has never been on a team where he would have to be the focus on offense.

DaBUU
10-12-2010, 04:54 PM
I seriously doubt that.

Okafor would make a poor PF at this point in his career, and West is an expirer while Noah just got a long term deal paying him way more than West ever made in his career.

your nuts if you think the Hornets wouldn't crap themselves if the Bulls offered Noah for West straight up. And to correct you earlier, Noah has a bad game and the Bulls have a hard time winning, Noah has a typical Noah game and the Bulls are tough to beat (Heat, C's, Magic) not withstanding.

Stunner
10-12-2010, 04:55 PM
The Bulls were still going to be a bottom half playoff team with no shot at a championship even if everyone was 100% healthy and playing to their full potential.

That's what I call mediocre... you might have your own definition. Just for reference the Heat was also a mediocre team even with 47 wins.


But if u win 47 games u are a decent team. You are acting like the Bulls are the T-Wolves or something. No offense T-Wolves fans. U guys having Wade makes you a decent team jus like the Cavs having Lebron they would be *** as hell without him last year.

beasted86
10-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Holy ****. So what you are doing right now (and post above this) is taking arbitrary stats to compare 2 completely different players and then using those stats to randomly assess ones contribution to their respective teams wins? Does that sound about right?

lol

Arbitrary stats? The first thing I did was asked who was better at their roles?

I only edited to add stats to show how lopsided it was when you factor in stats. What are you talking about? :confused:

Pierzynski4Prez
10-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Arbitrary stats? The first thing I did was asked who was better at their roles?

I only edited to add stats to show how lopsided it was when you factor in stats. What are you talking about? :confused:

Lopsided???

1st of all, they're Centers/Power Forwards. So regarding the stats you showed:

I could care less about 3pt % and APG really. FG% is identical. Noah averages nearly 6 more rebounds per game over 36 minutes and a block a game. Yes, West scores more per game, but he is also taking nearly twice as many shots. So outside of FT%, I fail to see how your stats show that West is the better big man of the 2.

John Walls Era
10-12-2010, 05:19 PM
ummmm yes I do...... look at the bulls record when noah is not playing compared to the hornets


what I dont get is david west over noah???? now thats just crazy

0-10 (or something), but that had more to do with the Bulls at the time than all Noah. Noah is good, but I get the feeling people think hes an all star type C, which hes not. West made 2 all-star games already and is automatic from midrange.

beasted86
10-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Lopsided???

1st of all, they're Centers/Power Forwards. So regarding the stats you showed:

I could care less about 3pt % and APG really. FG% is identical. Noah averages nearly 6 more rebounds per game over 36 minutes and a block a game. Yes, West scores more per game, but he is also taking nearly twice as many shots. So outside of FT%, I fail to see how your stats show that West is the better big man of the 2.

So a PF isn't supposed to shoot 3s or pass? BTW, I'm not going to get off topic about a debate of per36 stats.

Anyway West has him beat in stats. PER, Win Shares, Roland Rating, Player Rating, Player Efficiency, or any other all inclusive stat measure you want to use, West probably has him beat.... but the main point I made was I think West has at least equal and arguably more impact on wins for the Hornets. Nothing is "just crazy" about West over Noah in an overall player ranking.

I don't really put much weight behind the whole '10 game losing streak' because as I said more than just Noah was injured, and he came back and was limited to under 10 minutes for the games following the injury, and the Bulls still won the next couple. I hope there are no Bulls fans crazy enough to argue the games were won in exactly those 10 minutes

Pierzynski4Prez
10-12-2010, 05:55 PM
So a PF isn't supposed to shoot 3s or pass? BTW, I'm not going to get off topic about a debate of per36 stats.

Anyway West has him beat in stats. PER, Win Shares, Roland Rating, Player Rating, Player Efficiency, or any other all inclusive stat measure you want to use, West probably has him beat.... but the main point I made was I think West has at least equal and arguably more impact on wins for the Hornets. Nothing is "just crazy" about West over Noah in an overall player ranking.

I don't really put much weight behind the whole '10 game losing streak' because as I said more than just Noah was injured, and he came back and was limited to under 10 minutes for the games following the injury, and the Bulls still won the next couple. I hope there are no Bulls fans crazy enough to argue the games were won in exactly those 10 minutes

Sure you could include those stats, but when comparing big men, how often does 3pt % or Assists get brought up? Noah has shot 2 3pters in his life, and I'm sure they were buzzer beaters. And assists are nice, but its not like either one is outstanding (they both have career averages of 2 BTW)

2 key stats, FG%, TS% are about equal, West does have a higher Win share, and PER as well, PER (people have different opinions of it). But 1 stat to keep in mind when looking at big men are rebounds and blocks, an area where Noah easily excels over West, as well in defensive rating.

But they have 2 different roles for their team, not to mention Noah is 5 years younger so who knows what the future has in store for him, especially now having Boozer. He isn't expected to do much on offense except hit the glass and throw some picks.

And I do agree with you about the 10 games. If the bulls had depth at their bigs, it wouldn't have mattered, they may have won a few of those. Just depends on the team really.

D Roses Bulls
10-12-2010, 07:32 PM
0-10 (or something), but that had more to do with the Bulls at the time than all Noah. Noah is good, but I get the feeling people think hes an all star type C, which hes not. West made 2 all-star games already and is automatic from midrange.

but what you failed to remember was that noah was gonna be a all star this past season if it weren't for the injury. also i wouldnt doubt if he wasnt voted in by coaches this year as well. plus we have not even seen what noah's potential is because he hasnt reached it yet.

Dnovakovic099
10-13-2010, 09:30 AM
Hawk, I define stats as ppg, rpg, shooting percentage, and so on. You cannot quantify a player in basketball. To an extent you can, but some players have better players around them so they do less. Also, basketball involves heart and determination you cannot quantify that. Being clutch can't quantify that. I ranked players based on how much I think they help their team win when I watch the games, and I believe that is the best way to ever rank a player because stats don't win games.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2010, 09:50 AM
Hawk, I define stats as ppg, rpg, shooting percentage, and so on. You cannot quantify a player in basketball. To an extent you can, but some players have better players around them so they do less. Also, basketball involves heart and determination you cannot quantify that. Being clutch can't quantify that. I ranked players based on how much I think they help their team win when I watch the games, and I believe that is the best way to ever rank a player because stats don't win games.

per game numbers are archaic, and not a measure of much. I also think that arguing with just your eyes will get you nowhere here, and what I mean by that is, there is indeed plenty of statistical evidence to back up claims of players. But it does not lie within per game stats. If it did, people would be fooled into thinking Monta Ellis was one of the best scorers in the NBA the past 2 seasons.

dsickich123
10-13-2010, 12:32 PM
TOP TOP STARTS TOMORROW!!!

12.Derrick RoSe(placed really high IMO)

11. Brandon Roy