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View Full Version : Is Dirk a "choker" when it comes time to play in the Playoffs?



DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 07:42 PM
A choker is someone who constantly can't come through big time. The team can effect that. Dirk didn't win the Finals and his Mavs lost to the 8th seed Warriors. Because of these two big things, he has been called a choker by many. LeBron hasn't won a Finals game but he is considered the best in the game easily and a future top 5 player of all time by many.........

I'm going to show every single statline from Dirk in the playoffs. Keep in mind, I am not simply saying, he put up the stats, thats it. He has not had a teammate who has been consistent for his whole career.

Steve Nash- Was not the player he was today at all.
Michael Finley- Closest to a sidekick Dirk has ever had.
Josh Howard- Didn't do anything in the playoffs aside from one year.
Devin Harris- Never did much in the playoffs
Jason Terry- The ultimate player who brings you nothing in the playoffs.
Jason Kidd- He has been awful in the playoffs ever since he has been here.
Erick Dampier/Desagana Diop- His center tandem for a while (not good)
Caron Butler- Was very inconsistent this past year.
Roddy Beaubois- He will be the first consistent player next to Dirk guaranteed.

Other stars such as Kobe, Duncan, Pierce, Wade had all stars or future HOF next to them. Even LeBron got more out of Mo Williams and others than Dirk got out of Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris.

CAREER PLAYOFF GAME LOGS

2001-2002 Round 1 vs T'Wolves
Game 1: 30 pts 15 reb 10/19 FG
Game 2: 31 pts 15 reb 9/21 FG
Game 3: 39 pts 17 reb 11/17 FG

2001-2002 Round 2 vs Kings
Game 1: 23 pts 14 reb 8/24 FG
Game 2: 22 pts 15 reb 7/15 FG
Game 3: 19 pts 5 reb 6/15 FG
Game 4: 31 pts 12 reb 7 ast 9/28 FG
Game 5: 32 pts 12 reb 13/25 FG



2002-2003 Round 1 vs Blazers
Game 1: 46 pts 10 reb 16/27 FG
Game 2: 25 pts 9 reb 8/25 FG
Game 3: 42 pts 10 reb 15/20 FG
Game 4: 26 pts 11 reb 10/20 FG
Game 5: 35 pts 11 reb 12/20 FG
Game 6: 4 pts 0 reb 2/11 FG (hurt in this game)
Game 7: 31 pts 11 reb 12/21 FG

2002-2003 Round 2 vs Kings
Game 1: 18 pts 11 reb 7/13 FG
Game 2: 24 pts 12 reb 8/14 FG
Game 3: 25 pts 20 reb 9/21 FG
Game 4: 11 pts 11 reb 4/14 FG
Game 5: 16 pts 15 reb 9 ast 5/15 FG
Game 6: 21 pts 12 reb 5/14 FG
Game 7: 30 pts 19 reb 12/20 FG

2002-2003 Round 3 vs Spurs
Game 1: 38 pts 15 reb 10/19 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 10 reb 8/19 FG
Game 3: 15 pts 9 reb 7/20 FG
Game 3,4,5: OUT



2003-2004 Round 1 vs Kings
Game 1: 32 pts 13 reb 12/19 FG
Game 2: 28 pts 10 reb 10/22 FG
Game 3: 21 pts 8 reb 7/14 FG
Game 4: 21 pts 14 reb 5/22 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 14 reb 11/23 FG



2004-2005 Round 1 vs Rockets
Game 1: 21 pts 7 reb 5/19 FG
Game 2: 26 pts 2 reb 8/21 FG
Game 3: 28 pts 6 reb 9/16 FG
Game 4: 18 pts 7 reb 4/14 FG
Game 5: 23 pts 13 reb 9/22 FG
Game 6: 19 pts 13 reb 5/22 FG
Game 7: 14 pts 14 reb 5/14 FG

2004-2005 Round 2 vs Suns
Game 1: 28 pts 13 reb 13/24 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 12 reb 8/18 FG
Game 3: 21 pts 13 reb 8/24 FG
Game 4: 25 pts 8 reb 9/15 FG
Game 5: 34 pts 10 reb 11/22 FG
Game 6: 28 pts 13 reb 6 ast 9/25 FG



2005-2006 Round 1 vs Grizzlies
Game 1: 31 pts 11 reb 9/18 FG
Game 2: 31 pts 4 reb 9/19 FG
Game 3: 36 pts 9 reb 12/25 FG
Game 4: 27 pts 7 reb 12/21 FG

2005-2006 Round 2 vs Spurs
Game 1: 20 pts 14 reb 8/20 FG
Game 2: 21 pts 9 reb 7/11 FG
Game 3: 27 pts 15 reb 3/9 FG 21/24 FT
Game 4: 29 pts 9 reb 7/12 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 10 reb 13/22 FG
Game 6: 26 pts 21 reb 9/16 FG
Game 7: 37 pts 15 reb 11/20 FG

2005-2006 Round 3 vs Suns
Game 1: 25 pts 19 reb 8/18 FG
Game 2: 30 pts 14 reb 12/21 FG
Game 3: 28 pts 17 reb 10/23 FG
Game 4: 11 pts 7 reb 3/13 FG
Game 5: 50 pts 12 reb 14/26 FG
Game 6: 24 pts 10 reb 8/20 FG

2005-2006 Finals vs Heat
Game 1: 16 pts 10 reb 4/14 FG
Game 2: 26 pts 16 reb 8/16 FG
Game 3: 30 pts 7 reb 9/20 FG
Game 4: 16 pts 9 reb 2/14 FG
Game 5: 20 pts 8 reb 8/19 FG
Game 6: 29 pts 15 reb 10/22 FG



2006-2007 Round 1 vs Golden State
Game 1: 14 pts 12 reb 4/16 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 7 reb 7/15 FG
Game 3: 20 pts 12 reb 7/16 FG
Game 4: 23 pts 15 reb 9/19 FG
Game 5: 30 pts 12 reb 7/15 FG
Game 6: 8 pts 10 reb 2/13 FG



2007-2008 Round 1 vs Hornets
Game 1: 31 pts 10 reb 9/21 FG
Game 2: 27 pts 5 reb 7/11 FG
Game 3: 32 pts 19 reb 11/20 FG
Game 4: 22 pts 13 reb 8/18 FG
Game 5: 22 pts 13 reb 8/21 FG



2008-2009 Round 1 vs Spurs
Game 1: 19 pts 8 reb 7/15 FG
Game 2: 14 pts 6 reb 3/14 FG
Game 3: 20 pts 7 reb 8/12 FG
Game 4: 12 pts 13 reb 4/9 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 9 reb 11/17 FG

2008-2009 Round 2 vs Nuggets
Game 1: 28 pts 10 reb 12/22 FG
Game 2: 35 pts 9 reb 11/20 FG
Game 3: 33 pts 16 reb 9/19 FG
Game 4: 44 pts 13 reb 14/25 FG
Game 5: 32 pts 10 reb 7 ast 9/17 FG



2009-2010 Round 1 vs Spurs
Game 1: 36 pts 7 reb 12/14 FG
Game 2: 24 pts 10 reb 9/24 FG
Game 3: 35 pts 7 reb 13/23 FG
Game 4: 17 pts 11 reb 4/10 FG
Game 5: 15 pts 9 reb 7/14 FG
Game 6: 33 pts 5 reb 13/21 FG




His stats here show how good of a player he is in the playoffs. He is amazing in elimination games. He is also 1 of 5 players to average over 25 pts and 11 reb for their careers in the playoffs.

Overall, no he does not have a ring and that 1st rd elimination from the Warriors was embarassing but Dirk is not a choker in any way. He is one of the best players of all time in the playoffs and these stats show it. He doesn't have his teammates play as well as they can and it kind of sucks when you have to carry a team by yourself and you get no help, for 10 years.

So back to the question. Do you think Dirk is a choker as some people on here proclaim?

prash
09-28-2010, 07:55 PM
Dirk is Clutch.

justinnum1
09-28-2010, 07:57 PM
Yes...just ask Haslem

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 07:58 PM
Dirk is Clutch.

ThankYou. It is obvious but some of these guys act like he isn't. One guy even said Dirk was the biggest shoker of all time. LOL

bringinwood
09-28-2010, 07:59 PM
A choker is someone who constantly can't come through big time. The team can effect that. Dirk didn't win the Finals and his Mavs lost to the 8th seed Warriors. Because of these two big things, he has been called a choker by many. LeBron hasn't won a Finals game but he is considered the best in the game easily and a future top 5 player of all time by many.........

I'm going to show every single statline from Dirk in the playoffs. Keep in mind, I am not simply saying, he put up the stats, thats it. He has not had a teammate who has been consistent for his whole career.

Steve Nash- Was not the player he was today at all.
Michael Finley- Closest to a sidekick Dirk has ever had.
Josh Howard- Didn't do anything in the playoffs aside from one year.
Devin Harris- Never did much in the playoffs
Jason Terry- The ultimate player who brings you nothing in the playoffs.
Jason Kidd- He has been awful in the playoffs ever since he has been here.
Erick Dampier/Desagana Diop- His center tandem for a while (not good)
Caron Butler- Was very inconsistent this past year.
Roddy Beaubois- He will be the first consistent player next to Dirk guaranteed.

Other stars such as Kobe, Duncan, Pierce, Wade had all stars or future HOF next to them. Even LeBron got more out of Mo Williams and others than Dirk got out of Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris.

CAREER PLAYOFF GAME LOGS

2001-2002 Round 1 vs T'Wolves
Game 1: 30 pts 15 reb 10/19 FG
Game 2: 31 pts 15 reb 9/21 FG
Game 3: 39 pts 17 reb 11/17 FG

2001-2002 Round 2 vs Kings
Game 1: 23 pts 14 reb 8/24 FG
Game 2: 22 pts 15 reb 7/15 FG
Game 3: 19 pts 5 reb 6/15 FG
Game 4: 31 pts 12 reb 7 ast 9/28 FG
Game 5: 32 pts 12 reb 13/25 FG



2002-2003 Round 1 vs Blazers
Game 1: 46 pts 10 reb 16/27 FG
Game 2: 25 pts 9 reb 8/25 FG
Game 3: 42 pts 10 reb 15/20 FG
Game 4: 26 pts 11 reb 10/20 FG
Game 5: 35 pts 11 reb 12/20 FG
Game 6: 4 pts 0 reb 2/11 FG (hurt in this game)
Game 7: 31 pts 11 reb 12/21 FG

2002-2003 Round 2 vs Kings
Game 1: 18 pts 11 reb 7/13 FG
Game 2: 24 pts 12 reb 8/14 FG
Game 3: 25 pts 20 reb 9/21 FG
Game 4: 11 pts 11 reb 4/14 FG
Game 5: 16 pts 15 reb 9 ast 5/15 FG
Game 6: 21 pts 12 reb 5/14 FG
Game 7: 30 pts 19 reb 12/20 FG

2002-2003 Round 3 vs Spurs
Game 1: 38 pts 15 reb 10/19 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 10 reb 8/19 FG
Game 3: 15 pts 9 reb 7/20 FG
Game 3,4,5: OUT



2003-2004 Round 1 vs Kings
Game 1: 32 pts 13 reb 12/19 FG
Game 2: 28 pts 10 reb 10/22 FG
Game 3: 21 pts 8 reb 7/14 FG
Game 4: 21 pts 14 reb 5/22 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 14 reb 11/23 FG



2004-2005 Round 1 vs Rockets
Game 1: 21 pts 7 reb 5/19 FG
Game 2: 26 pts 2 reb 8/21 FG
Game 3: 28 pts 6 reb 9/16 FG
Game 4: 18 pts 7 reb 4/14 FG
Game 5: 23 pts 13 reb 9/22 FG
Game 6: 19 pts 13 reb 5/22 FG
Game 7: 14 pts 14 reb 5/14 FG

2004-2005 Round 2 vs Suns
Game 1: 28 pts 13 reb 13/24 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 12 reb 8/18 FG
Game 3: 21 pts 13 reb 8/24 FG
Game 4: 25 pts 8 reb 9/15 FG
Game 5: 34 pts 10 reb 11/22 FG
Game 6: 28 pts 13 reb 6 ast 9/25 FG



2005-2006 Round 1 vs Grizzlies
Game 1: 31 pts 11 reb 9/18 FG
Game 2: 31 pts 4 reb 9/19 FG
Game 3: 36 pts 9 reb 12/25 FG
Game 4: 27 pts 7 reb 12/21 FG

2005-2006 Round 2 vs Spurs
Game 1: 20 pts 14 reb 8/20 FG
Game 2: 21 pts 9 reb 7/11 FG
Game 3: 27 pts 15 reb 3/9 FG 21/24 FT
Game 4: 29 pts 9 reb 7/12 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 10 reb 13/22 FG
Game 6: 26 pts 21 reb 9/16 FG
Game 7: 37 pts 15 reb 11/20 FG

2005-2006 Round 3 vs Suns
Game 1: 25 pts 19 reb 8/18 FG
Game 2: 30 pts 14 reb 12/21 FG
Game 3: 28 pts 17 reb 10/23 FG
Game 4: 11 pts 7 reb 3/13 FG
Game 5: 50 pts 12 reb 14/26 FG
Game 6: 24 pts 10 reb 8/20 FG

2005-2006 Finals vs Heat
Game 1: 16 pts 10 reb 4/14 FG
Game 2: 26 pts 16 reb 8/16 FG
Game 3: 30 pts 7 reb 9/20 FG
Game 4: 16 pts 9 reb 2/14 FG
Game 5: 20 pts 8 reb 8/19 FG
Game 6: 29 pts 15 reb 10/22 FG



2006-2007 Round 1 vs Golden State
Game 1: 14 pts 12 reb 4/16 FG
Game 2: 23 pts 7 reb 7/15 FG
Game 3: 20 pts 12 reb 7/16 FG
Game 4: 23 pts 15 reb 9/19 FG
Game 5: 30 pts 12 reb 7/15 FG
Game 6: 8 pts 10 reb 2/13 FG



2007-2008 Round 1 vs Hornets
Game 1: 31 pts 10 reb 9/21 FG
Game 2: 27 pts 5 reb 7/11 FG
Game 3: 32 pts 19 reb 11/20 FG
Game 4: 22 pts 13 reb 8/18 FG
Game 5: 22 pts 13 reb 8/21 FG



2008-2009 Round 1 vs Spurs
Game 1: 19 pts 8 reb 7/15 FG
Game 2: 14 pts 6 reb 3/14 FG
Game 3: 20 pts 7 reb 8/12 FG
Game 4: 12 pts 13 reb 4/9 FG
Game 5: 31 pts 9 reb 11/17 FG

2008-2009 Round 2 vs Nuggets
Game 1: 28 pts 10 reb 12/22 FG
Game 2: 35 pts 9 reb 11/20 FG
Game 3: 33 pts 16 reb 9/19 FG
Game 4: 44 pts 13 reb 14/25 FG
Game 5: 32 pts 10 reb 7 ast 9/17 FG



2009-2010 Round 1 vs Spurs
Game 1: 36 pts 7 reb 12/14 FG
Game 2: 24 pts 10 reb 9/24 FG
Game 3: 35 pts 7 reb 13/23 FG
Game 4: 17 pts 11 reb 4/10 FG
Game 5: 15 pts 9 reb 7/14 FG
Game 6: 33 pts 5 reb 13/21 FG




His stats here show how good of a player he is in the playoffs. He is amazing in elimination games. He is also 1 of 5 players to average over 25 pts and 11 reb for their careers in the playoffs.

Overall, no he does not have a ring and that 1st rd elimination from the Warriors was embarassing but Dirk is not a choker in any way. He is one of the best players of all time in the playoffs and these stats show it. He doesn't have his teammates play as well as they can and it kind of sucks when you have to carry a team by yourself and you get no help, for 10 years.

So back to the question. Do you think Dirk is a choker as some people on here proclaim?

Didn't you call LeBron a choke artist ???

Can't have it both ways... Dirk played on a better team during his trip to the finals...

LeBron carried his team all the way there...

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 08:05 PM
Didn't you call LeBron a choke artist ???

Can't have it both ways... Dirk played on a better team during his trip to the finals...

LeBron carried his team all the way there...

I do not think LeBron is a choke artist. I was just saying if Dirk is a choke artist then LeBron is. And once again, Dirk had more talent around him but that talent did not show up in the playoffs.

Angel2Maverick
09-28-2010, 08:19 PM
To say that Dirk is a choker really shows me how much basketball knowledge you know

kswissdaf
09-28-2010, 08:20 PM
06 nba finals David hasselhoff nuff said

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 08:21 PM
To say that Dirk is a choker really shows me how much basketball knowledge you know

Are you talking to me or people who think he is a choker?

justinnum1
09-28-2010, 08:24 PM
06 nba finals David hasselhoff nuff said

lmao

Angel2Maverick
09-28-2010, 08:26 PM
Are you talking to me or people who think he is a choker?

people who think he's a choker

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 08:27 PM
people who think he's a choker

Yeah it is ridiculous....

Jamballin L@KER
09-28-2010, 08:32 PM
i personally dont believe he's a choker when it comes to the playoffs.... i jus think his teammates dont show up and they think that he can jus carry them there (except terry who usually contributes scoring wise)

Baller1
09-28-2010, 08:34 PM
His team is the epitome of the "regular season" team. And that's on Dirk considering he's the leader of the team.

John Walls Era
09-28-2010, 08:37 PM
Their team is about as good as it gets when we are talking top 4 in the west. Most of the time they are poised to make a big run in the playoffs, but loses in the 1st or 2nd round. That falls on the leader.

heyman321
09-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Dirk's team is just terrible during the playoffs. Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd, Caron Butler, etc all high profile names brought to Dallas to bring them to the next level, but they have done close to nothing. Dirk himself is clutch, EXCEPT for when they got embarassed by the Warriors.

Geargo Wallace
09-28-2010, 08:44 PM
Why did you ask if you are so sure that he isn't a choker?

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 08:48 PM
Why did you ask if you are so sure that he isn't a choker?

To see who watches basketball and who doesn't.

Geargo Wallace
09-28-2010, 08:49 PM
To see who watches basketball and who doesn't.

You should make a thread named:

Do you watch Basketball?

then have a poll with the options: Yes, No, Sometimes

Two-3
09-28-2010, 08:49 PM
Yeah it is ridiculous....




:rolleyes: You guys arent biased at all are you ?

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 08:58 PM
:rolleyes: You guys arent biased at all are you ?

If Lakers fans said Kobe was good, does that make them biased?

blacknell
09-28-2010, 09:03 PM
if you watch the games then you would know he is the only maverick who shows up in the playoffs

jackdawson
09-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Dirk is the epitome of "choker" in the playoffs. He has been the leader of some very talented mavs team and those teams only choked during playoffs. That falls on the leader.

Punkindrublic03
09-28-2010, 09:10 PM
Dirk isn't an alpha dog who can win a title being THE MAN. He's a very good sidekick. Mavs need a #1 guy.

DoJoTheSlasher
09-28-2010, 09:11 PM
So since Finley, Nash, Butler, Kidd, Dampier, Marion, Harris all never showed up, it's Dirk's fault?

That makes absolutely no sense. None at all. Is he supposed to give them some of his basketball talents?? I'm pretty sure he pushes them in practice to get them to compete so don't bring that up.

No sense at all........

jackdawson
09-28-2010, 09:19 PM
The leader of a choking team will be leveled as a choker. Simple as that IMO.

Two-3
09-28-2010, 09:23 PM
If Lakers fans said Kobe was good, does that make them biased?

Well its obvious that this thread is a waste of time and is good for nothing but for you to try to bash other people who dont agree with your views, by saying that you want to see, "Who really watches basketball".

I understand you personally dont think Dirk is a choke artist and think the world of him but many people will disagree with you BUT thats there OPINION and there intitled to it, just as you are intitled to yours.

And for you to purley make a thread to tell people that disagree with you that they dont know or watch basketball is really dumb and immature.

arkanian215
09-28-2010, 09:25 PM
Dirk does about as well in the playoffs as he does during the regular season.

TylerSL
09-28-2010, 09:29 PM
its more the whole Dallas Mavericks team.

tredigs
09-28-2010, 09:33 PM
What?? No.

Tony_Starks
09-28-2010, 09:33 PM
I hard for me to say he's a "choker" because the numbers he's putting up are pretty dog-gone great. For me its less about choking and more that he doesn't take over games in critical situations or crucial games. To me thats what seperates him from Kobe, DWade, and other legit superstars.

Sometimes he allows himself to be bullied by smaller players also like in the Denver series in '09 with Dantay Jones, and then again this year by the Spurs. There's no way in hell a SF should be checking him and getting away with it, EVER.

tredigs
09-28-2010, 09:34 PM
Dirk is the epitome of "choker" in the playoffs. He has been the leader of some very talented mavs team and those teams only choked during playoffs. That falls on the leader.

No dude, it falls on the team. Dirk's been consistently clutch/fantastic in the playoffs over the years.

Look at these blog write-ups I'm about to link that basketball reference wrote recently. It covers who had the best elimination game (any time their team was within 1 game of being eliminated) performances in the past two decades (since 1991, which is how far back basketball reference had stats for). It looked at pts scored, "game score" (similar to PER), and WinShares as the criteria:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5599

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5605



The scale is similar to that of points scored, i.e., 40 is an outstanding performance, 10 is an average performance, etc. Anyway, here are the top elimination-game performances since 1991 by Game Score:



Date Player Team Opp Rd G# MP FG FGA 3P FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc
6/5/93 Barkley PHO SEA WCF 7 46 12 20 1 19 22 10 24 1 1 1 1 3 44 45.0
5/3/02 Pierce BOS PHI EC1 5 44 16 25 8 6 7 1 4 6 1 1 0 1 46 41.6
5/14/01 Dirk DAL SAS WCS 5 47 14 24 0 14 18 6 18 2 6 1 3 2 42 41.3
5/20/95 Kev. J PHO HOU WCS 7 42 12 26 1 21 22 1 3 10 1 1 1 3 46 40.0
5/5/95 Drexler HOU UTA WC1 4 41 12 18 4 13 14 3 9 6 1 0 1 3 41 39.7
5/1/97 Penny ORL MIA EC1 4 48 12 23 4 13 16 3 7 4 4 3 1 4 41 38.1
5/11/09 Dirk DAL DEN WCS 4 44 14 25 0 16 17 1 13 3 2 1 4 1 44 36.4
5/22/06 Duncan SAS DAL WCS 7 50 12 24 0 17 23 6 15 6 1 3 3 4 41 36.2
5/22/06 Dirk DAL SAS WCS 7 50 11 20 0 15 16 2 15 3 1 1 0 3 37 34.9

Dirk dominates virtually everyone in these games, posting 3 of the top 10 (!) "game scores" of the past 20 years, and 8 of the top 100 WinShares in elimination games. The dude is insanely clutch. For whatever reason, his teammates consistently buckle on him. There may be a reason for that which is somehow related to him, but the man himself ALWAYS comes to play; and IMO is highly underrated. People think Melo is better than this guy? Ridiculous.

kdspurman
09-28-2010, 09:37 PM
As a Spurs fan I honestly do not believe Dirk is a choker. I think he's pretty reliable. (Only year he struggled really was vs Golden State)

**On another note, aside from David Robinson I'm not sure who you consider hall of fame players. Parker and Manu possibly? But they did not come in and make immediate impacts. Tim's ability to draw double teams and run the pick and roll created so much for those 2. Dirk plays differently. I honestly feel (dont take this personal) that if Tim played with a couple of those Mavs teams, they would have gotten atleast 1 championship just by the attention he draws and his ability to make those around him better. You rarely see a team win a championship without a dominant big and unfortunately the Mavs have lacked that. That's not Dirks role. But I think Chandler's presence will help them a lot this year as well as Haywood having got his feet wet so to speak. Should be a great race out west

_KB24_
09-28-2010, 09:41 PM
I still seem him as the best PF in the game today, but I do fault him as a leader. If he didn't play on such good teams and consistently do well in the regular season, but year after year lose in the playoffs. The Golden State debacle really started me to label the Mavs as choke artists and you have to to take somewhat of the blame if your their leader.

soundjunkies2
09-28-2010, 09:41 PM
I don't think he is a choker he just never seems to have any help.

TheTakeOver24
09-28-2010, 09:56 PM
No, he is not a choker...
BUT, his teams do choke and that shows a lot about him.
Its one thing to be average during the reg season and struggle in the playoffs, but if you have the talent to dominate the reg season and dont produce in the playoffs then that shows a lack of leadership... and that responsibility has to come on the best player on the team.

tredigs
09-28-2010, 09:58 PM
I still seem him as the best PF in the game today, but I do fault him as a leader. If he didn't play on such good teams and consistently do well in the regular season, but year after year lose in the playoffs. The Golden State debacle really started me to label the Mavs as choke artists and you have to to take somewhat of the blame if your their leader.

As a Warrior fan, I can tell you that - despite the fact that it was a #1 v. #8 seed - it wasn't a choke by the Mavs to lose to GS. Their style was just a terrible matchup for Dallas, and had that series before it started. It was no fluke that the Dubs swept Dallas (4-0) in the regular season that year, and I don't think the fans could've been any more happy to pull them in the first round (that said, I think Dallas would've beat every other team in the West that season).

SouthSideRookie
09-28-2010, 09:59 PM
I don't think he is a choker he just never seems to have any help.

I agree, hence the TOP seeds just about every year. :rolleyes:

_KB24_
09-28-2010, 10:16 PM
As a Warrior fan, I can tell you that - despite the fact that it was a #1 v. #8 seed - it wasn't a choke by the Mavs to lose to GS. Their style was just a terrible matchup for Dallas, and had that series before it started. It was no fluke that the Dubs swept Dallas (4-0) in the regular season that year, and I don't think the fans could've been any more happy to pull them in the first round (that said, I think Dallas would've beat every other team in the West that season).

Still doesn't deflect the matter that it was a 1 vs 8 scenario, with the Dallas team being one of the greatest single season teams ever in terms of record. And I don't agree at all the Warriors "had it". That caught most of us by surprise and really, really shook the NBA world. The Mavs should have been able to get past the Warriors if the Jazz took care of them the next round.

tredigs
09-28-2010, 10:26 PM
Still doesn't deflect the matter that it was a 1 vs 8 scenario, with the Dallas team being one of the greatest single season teams ever in terms of record. And I don't agree at all the Warriors "had it". That caught most of us by surprise and really, really shook the NBA world. The Mavs should have been able to get past the Warriors if the Jazz took care of them the next round.

Playoffs are about matchups, not seedings or regular season record. The only people who didn't see it coming were the ones who weren't paying attention. Like I said, their regular season sweep of Dallas wasn't a fluke. The Warriors may not have been able to beat any other team in the WC playoffs that season (and I'm not sure Dallas would've lost to anyone else), but they had the Mavs number all year.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Dirk is almost always ridiculously tough in the playoffs. Although he's always had above par to very good help around him, they just haven't come to play consistently in the playoffs (and if you've noticed, almost all of these role players have never been to the finals as a key piece on other teams). But because of this, many people unfairly label Dirk the choker, which is just wrong, and entirely typical of NBA fans who tend to associate one player as a face for an entire team... -cough Kobe-

justinnum1
09-28-2010, 10:37 PM
He would have done anything to get on this heat team...probably why he held out on signing his extension.

Meaze_Gibson
09-28-2010, 10:46 PM
I can't it. It hurts the team morale when your best player doesn't really play defense. And I dare venture to say that teams let him get his points. I've seen switches where Baron Davis, Steven Jackson, Dwyane Wade, James Posey, and other perimeter players were guarding Dirk in post (one-on-one) and succeeded. Please let me know if that would ever happen with Duncan, KG, or even C-Webb and Sheed. Its not just about puttin up numbers its about dominating and striking fear in somebody. Dirk is clutch but he doesn't strike fear the way that some of the other superstars do.

Baller1
09-28-2010, 10:47 PM
You should make a thread named:

Do you watch Basketball?

then have a poll with the options: Yes, No, Sometimes

:laugh2:

Point is... Dirk will always be looked at as "the guy who couldn't ever win anything". He's no a choker, but he's not a winner.

pedrofan45
09-28-2010, 11:04 PM
people need to realize that this is a TEAM sport... a leader can lead his team all he wants, but if teammates have bad games how is that his fault? the leader can motivate and lead by example all he wants but ALL the players themselves have to contribute in some ways. Dirk isn't a choker, the Mavericks are chokers. Lebron isn't a choker, the Cavs were chokers.

How about this scenario: If the lakers lost game 7 in the finals against the celtics. Would you call Kobe a choker? Because he played absolutely terrible the whole series except for the games he lost. But because his TEAM stepped up and won the finals TOGETHER, people keep saying of how great he is and how he's not a choker. It's a TEAM sport people.

SouthSideRookie
09-28-2010, 11:16 PM
I can't it. It hurts the team morale when your best player doesn't really play defense. And I dare venture to say that teams let him get his points. I've seen switches where Baron Davis, Steven Jackson, Dwyane Wade, James Posey, and other perimeter players were guarding Dirk in post (one-on-one) and succeeded. Please let me know if that would ever happen with Duncan, KG, or even C-Webb and Sheed. Its not just about puttin up numbers its about dominating and striking fear in somebody. Dirk is clutch but he doesn't strike fear the way that some of the other superstars do.

This pretty much sums it up !

ALL_i-Do_is-Win
09-28-2010, 11:16 PM
people need to realize that this is a TEAM sport... a leader can lead his team all he wants, but if teammates have bad games how is that his fault? the leader can motivate and lead by example all he wants but ALL the players themselves have to contribute in some ways. Dirk isn't a choker, the Mavericks are chokers. Lebron isn't a choker, the Cavs were chokers.

How about this scenario: If the lakers lost game 7 in the finals against the celtics. Would you call Kobe a choker? Because he played absolutely terrible the whole series except for the games he lost. But because his TEAM stepped up and won the finals TOGETHER, people keep saying of how great he is and how he's not a choker. It's a TEAM sport people.

:clap:

if you actually watch mavs games dirk is as clutch as they come stats prove it

mynameismo
09-28-2010, 11:19 PM
No

IversonIsKrazy
09-29-2010, 01:13 AM
I've always said this. The reason why I don't respect the MAvericks is NOT because of Dirk, he is amazing. It's the fact that his supporting cast have always managed to choke in playoffs.

koreancabbage
09-29-2010, 01:29 AM
Wade aided by the refs in the NBA finals as well. so it doesn't look good for him.

rockets-fan
09-29-2010, 01:33 AM
dirk is by no means a choker....the team dallas mavericks is the choker not dirk

dodie53
09-29-2010, 02:33 AM
dirk will be a good 2nd banana

mynameismo
09-29-2010, 03:08 AM
dirk will be a good 2nd banana

Is that you Bill Simmons?

MacFitz92
09-29-2010, 03:16 AM
His statistics are noticeably better in the playoffs. People will say what they want, but just because a team underachieves in the postseason, doesn't mean the best player is a "choker". The reason we lost last year in the playoffs had nothing to do with Dirk's performance. It had to do with Kidd's 30% from the field shooting, Terry's inconsistency, and Carlisle's bad decisions (Benching Butler, starting Damp, etc.)

IHeartNY
09-29-2010, 08:15 AM
Hell no !

Dirk, come on ... he's a true great. Revolutionized the game and has a great work ethic. That man WANTS to win, with anything and everything he can do. He's not a choker, he just never had the right pieces around him to get that dang ring ...

Ace33Bone
09-29-2010, 08:52 AM
I would say that Dirk's stats speak for themself... He is far from a choke... the only reason that this is even a thread is because the refs basically gave Miami that championship series vs the Mavs... I mean D Wade got every call imaginable other than that the Heat were about to get swept... and Dirk would have had his ring and this topic does not even exist... I think that was one of the worst officiated series since that Kings vs Lakers fiasco

JARVIS123
09-29-2010, 08:53 AM
I'm not saying Dirk is a choker. but he has been on all the great dallas teams.he just cant get over the hump.he played with guys like nash,finley,terry,kidd,marion,howard,butler,walker ,jamison...

effen5
09-29-2010, 09:20 AM
LBJ is a pretty big choker

Randomsportsfan
09-29-2010, 09:25 AM
I'm not a mavs fan but I love watching dirk play. He is a great player and he definatly doesn't choke. By stats he is above 24 points and around 10 rebounds if someone thinks that's choking I don't know what to say. Mo Williams is a playoff choker. Dirk know how to put up points. They need one piece to be a power house, he never really had another stud player. If you were to put a lebron type player on that team it would take a lot of pressure off dirk. He is the face of the franchise. On that note he will be a top ten player until he retires. Gotta love dirk

Wade>You
09-29-2010, 09:33 AM
As long as you don't count the missing the FTs that would put the game out of reach against the Heat in the Finals, turning the ball over on another critical possession allowing Haslem to hit clutch FTs, and just his overall disappearance in the Finals, then no; he's not a choker.

New question: are people delusional about Dirk Nowitzki? After reading some posts here, I think people are fantasizing about Dirk.

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 09:36 AM
it comes down to team success for the average fan. If the Cavs lose, and Lebron averaged 40/20/13 for the series, he is still a choker.
Neither Dirk nor LeBron are chokers in the least. Their teams were. Kobe has a horrendous finals sans one game, and gets finals MVP. That is the way it goes.

gsgs49
09-29-2010, 10:26 AM
As a Warrior fan, I can tell you that - despite the fact that it was a #1 v. #8 seed - it wasn't a choke by the Mavs to lose to GS. Their style was just a terrible matchup for Dallas, and had that series before it started. It was no fluke that the Dubs swept Dallas (4-0) in the regular season that year, and I don't think the fans could've been any more happy to pull them in the first round (that said, I think Dallas would've beat every other team in the West that season).



This.The warriors swept Dallas 3-0 not 4-0 that season,that means Dallas was 67-12 against all teams except warriors,they were able to beat all teams in the west and in the east in the playoffs and swept them also except the warriors.Don nelson is the reason why he coached Dallas for years and know every player how he play specially Dirk.Avery Johnson made a big mistake at the end of the season,I remember it like yesterday,it was a close race between the warriors and the clippers for the 8 seed and dallas last two games were against GS and Seattle respectivly.Avery rested Dirk and Josh howard in the game against GS and let them play against Seattle,He had to do the opposite to put GS out of the playoffs and he knew it well that his team was facing problems against GS.

Kashmir13579
09-29-2010, 05:09 PM
his team is the epitome of the "regular season" team. And that's on dirk considering he's the leader of the team.

+1

CLASSOF72
09-29-2010, 05:34 PM
I'd be glad to have Dirk on the Lakers, he's a quality player. I don't think Cuban has the handle on how to build a chip winning team, he has the cash and the desire I just don't think he has the experience and more importantly the patience , but Dirk is not the problem.

SouthSideRookie
09-29-2010, 06:43 PM
As long as you don't count the missing the FTs that would put the game out of reach against the Heat in the Finals, turning the ball over on another critical possession allowing Haslem to hit clutch FTs, and just his overall disappearance in the Finals, then no; he's not a choker.
New question: are people delusional about Dirk Nowitzki? After reading some posts here, I think people are fantasizing about Dirk.

Actually you can go on and on but the list wouldn't fit here. I agree, it boggles the mind how some don't see it.

DoJoTheSlasher
09-29-2010, 07:29 PM
Actually you can go on and on but the list wouldn't fit here. I agree, it boggles the mind how some don't see it.

WOW you two fit the definition of HATERS

oak2455
09-29-2010, 08:14 PM
I'd take him on my team :D

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 08:21 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2010

Kobe vs Dirk. Look at their playoff efficiency. Besides assist percentage, Dirk has better numbers than Kobe in everything.

As I said, team success determines who becomes a "clutch" playoff performer, and a "choker" in the playoffs. Its sad. Dirk is one of the better playoff performers of all time. But his team's lack of coming thru in the biggest situations will kill his legacy.

Fact is, Dirk is NOT a choker in the least, and anyone who says otherwise, is either a fan who doesn't like Dirk personally, rates team success as the determining factor, or just plain doesn't know shizz about basketball

Hawkeye15
09-29-2010, 08:22 PM
I listed Kobe because most if not all consider him a clutch, great playoff performer. He is, but so is Dirk

Shammyguy3
09-29-2010, 08:42 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2010&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2010

Kobe vs Dirk. Look at their playoff efficiency. Besides assist percentage, Dirk has better numbers than Kobe in everything.

As I said, team success determines who becomes a "clutch" playoff performer, and a "choker" in the playoffs. Its sad. Dirk is one of the better playoff performers of all time. But his team's lack of coming thru in the biggest situations will kill his legacy.

Fact is, Dirk is NOT a choker in the least, and anyone who says otherwise, is either a fan who doesn't like Dirk personally, rates team success as the determining factor, or just plain doesn't know shizz about basketball

This x1000

We can close the thread now.

HoopsDrive
09-29-2010, 08:48 PM
Dirk's not a choker but his team is.

THE MTL
09-29-2010, 08:51 PM
His team is built for the regular season. Full of talent and just talent. No "true" chemistry just talent on top of talent and the playoffs is more than that.

He is no way a choker. Look at his amazing stats, but what u fail to realize is his nonexistent assist numbers. He really doesnt make guys around him better. Its kinda like give Dirk the ball and let him work. He game doesnt make others better and he doesnt even pass it to begin with.