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View Full Version : Is Vernon Back??



nithanyo
09-28-2010, 01:01 AM
Vernon Wells has quitley put together an impressive season.
31 HR? .273 BA, and 87 RBI.

As of right now he has more HR's and doubles than any centre fielder in baseball, and more HR's than any outfielder not name Jose Bautista:D Sure he is middle of the pack with the BA(14th) and top 5-6 in RBI but nonetheless an impressive season.

His defense is not sparkling but its not awful by any means. I dont know how to read defensive stats but its really hard to measure defense anyways. I jus know that he made some really impressive defensive plays this season, and partly with a fractured toe.

People may argue that 126 million for vernon is insane. And frankly i agree but at the time everyone was pleased to lock up the cornerstone of this franchise at what seemed to be a reasonable price(at that time). People have to realize that his career high in HR's is 32 and he hit above .300 only twice in his career. JP was an idiot for handing out that contract but people need to stop hating vernon as he has performed close to/above expectations.

lovingTO
09-28-2010, 01:58 AM
Vernon has been quite a pleasant suprise this season. ~90rbi is a great season especially when you consider we don't have very good on-base guys and he's hitting behind bautista who empties the bases more than anyone else in the league. Vernon could easily have 110rbi hitting in the 4 spot on another team. It's been a treat watching him hit all those jacks too. He's right around his career mark(33) and I wouldn't be shocked to see him beat it with the way he's playing.

He's as sure handed as they come(in the outfield) and seems to catch pretty much any ball he can get too. He tracks balls pretty well and has a decent arm. He could benefit from a little more speed but it's not like he's turtle.

In my personal life I've talked alot of smack about vernon. He's really shut me up this season. I look forward to seeing more of this V-dub next year.

Halladay
09-28-2010, 02:10 AM
He's put up solid numbers but consider he plays in the outfield, his numbers are just above average, nothing really to get excited about IMO. He's still never come close to duplicating his career year back in 03'.

koreancabbage
09-28-2010, 10:04 AM
He's put up solid numbers but consider he plays in the outfield, his numbers are just above average, nothing really to get excited about IMO. He's still never come close to duplicating his career year back in 03'.

as a centerfielder, he's the best. and he had Delgado as protection in 03 if i'm not mistaken.

Twitchy
09-28-2010, 11:15 AM
It's nice to see Wells rebound. Most of his production came in April and September which is disappointing, as he was invisible from most of May-August. He's surprisingly been one of the best CF's in the AL, and one of the best all around OF's in the AL. He may never earn his contract, but it's hard to complain about what he's done this season.

I don't want to say "he's back", because he's a very streaky player and could just as easily have a lousy season next year. But he's been a big part of the offense this season and that's really all you can ask from him. I'd be lying if I said I thought he'd be this good, and I'd say his season has been a big success.

Manatoo
09-28-2010, 11:34 AM
His power is back, he still cant get on base (at least above league average) or run and is one of the worst defensive CF in baseball and the only reason he has 87 RBI's is because he has Bautista and Escobar hitting infront of him.

Still, he has rebounded nicely from last year.

Twitchy
09-28-2010, 11:43 AM
His power is back, he still cant get on base (at least above league average) or run and is one of the worst defensive CF in baseball and the only reason he has 87 RBI's is because he has Bautista and Escobar hitting infront of him.

Still, he has rebounded nicely from last year.

Wells hasn't been that bad this year defensively. He's been a lot better than he has in the last few years. I'm willing to cut him some slack there.

As for the RBIs, that might not be a fair argument. Half the season he had Hill hitting in front of him who didn't bother getting on base, and then he had Gonzo + Bautista hitting HR's (which meant that nobody was on base for Wells). If anything I'd argue he lost RBI opportunities because Bautista drove everyone in before Wells got a chance to hit. Wells had an 885 OPS with Runners on vs an 825 OPS with nobody on, so it's clear at least this season he did a good job of driving guys in when he had the opportunity.

But I'll add that I really, really, really hate RBI's to judge people.

Manatoo
09-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Wells hasn't been that bad this year defensively. He's been a lot better than he has in the last few years. I'm willing to cut him some slack there.

As for the RBIs, that might not be a fair argument. Half the season he had Hill hitting in front of him who didn't bother getting on base, and then he had Gonzo + Bautista hitting HR's (which meant that nobody was on base for Wells). If anything I'd argue he lost RBI opportunities because Bautista drove everyone in before Wells got a chance to hit. Wells had an 885 OPS with Runners on vs an 825 OPS with nobody on, so it's clear at least this season he did a good job of driving guys in when he had the opportunity.

But I'll add that I really, really, really hate RBI's to judge people.

No this year Wells hasn't been that bad going by UZR but only because of sample size, over the last 3 years Wells has been the worst CF in baseball and its not even close (-15.3 UZR/150 to -9.5) and as im sure you know you need a good 2 1/2 to 3 years of UZR data to show anything.

Your right somewhat for about the RBI's though i forgot about Hill hitting in the #2 hole, still its not like RBI's show a hitters worth.

Love your avatar btw, cant wait for the fourth season.

heusy_79
09-28-2010, 12:20 PM
What are his numbers with runners in scoring position like compared to last season? I seem to remember him struggling a fair bit last year when he had a chance to do damage and I think it may be something he's improved on this year.

marcre
09-28-2010, 01:38 PM
He seems to finally be healthy. I loved the season he's had. I'd like the average to be higher, but it's not terrible. He's looked good in the field too.

BlueJayFanDan
09-28-2010, 02:40 PM
I hope next year he can maintain that power and get on base a little more. I was very impresed with his numbers this season. This whole teams power numbers were insane. 5 20+ HR hitters. Gonzo would have been there if not traded. Buck, EE, Snider would have reached 20 HR's had that all played more games and not been hurt. If we can maintain this power while getting on base next season this could be the deadliest lineup in baseball.

bartron_44
09-28-2010, 04:03 PM
How can anyone not be pleased with how Vernon has played this year....give your head a shake people, he has had a GREAT season!!!

1hardcore
09-28-2010, 04:27 PM
He's had a good year i'll admit.....

wamco
09-28-2010, 09:50 PM
I'd take this season's production going forward from wells and be pumped. Actually contributing is great.

Gibby
09-28-2010, 11:42 PM
offensively he has had a good season but defensively he hurts the team.

2009mvp
09-28-2010, 11:56 PM
^^His defense has sucked considerably less this year than it has in the past couple of years (whether that's due to him finally being injury/pain free or just a sample size issue remains to be seen). Either way, what exactly are the Jays' alternatives in center at this point? If Rios were still here it'd be a no-brainer to swap them, but Bautista/Snider/Lind are all clearly corner OF's (relatively poor ones at that). I'll be much more concerned with Wells' D in 2012 when hopefully this team is ready to seriously compete and he's another year older.

StealingSigns
09-29-2010, 03:44 AM
V-dub isn't expected to patrol center field forever. His defense improved this year, and hopefully he is a serviceable CF'er in 2011. Gose is the future though.

Gibby
09-29-2010, 01:55 PM
^^His defense has sucked considerably less this year than it has in the past couple of years (whether that's due to him finally being injury/pain free or just a sample size issue remains to be seen). Either way, what exactly are the Jays' alternatives in center at this point? If Rios were still here it'd be a no-brainer to swap them, but Bautista/Snider/Lind are all clearly corner OF's (relatively poor ones at that). I'll be much more concerned with Wells' D in 2012 when hopefully this team is ready to seriously compete and he's another year older.

i didnt say to get rid of wells from CF, just pointing out he is still bad defensively. alot of times he doesnt go full out for the ball and i have seen take bad routes to ball. At this point we should keep him their and in the future think of moving him to LF/RF when Gose is ready or we can get someone via FA

broncosfan_101
09-29-2010, 02:59 PM
No, Vernon is not back. He has good seasons every other year. That's all this is. After '03, he's been good in even numbered years, terrible in the odd numbered ones. If he's an average offensive CF next year, I'll be SHOCKED. And he's bad defensively. Remember just last year he was a replacement level player. Replacement level. Worth a total of 25 runs less than an average player (-8.4 offensively, -16.6 defensively). That's beyond embarrassing.

He's had a good year (it's already been brought up that he's done almost all his damage in April and September), but he's always going to be the definition of streaky. Next year will not be a good year for him, it's becoming clockwork.

But someone said he has never duplicated 2003. That's false. In 2006, he was only a tick behind 03 offensively, but was a thousand miles better on D.

R. Johnson#3
09-29-2010, 03:02 PM
One thing that hasn't been said is his plate discipline. Vernon still loves to swing at everything. If he can improve on that then he'd be much better. But yes, he's had a good year. Not 20 million dollars good, but good.

broncosfan_101
09-29-2010, 03:22 PM
One thing that hasn't been said is his plate discipline. Vernon still loves to swing at everything. If he can improve on that then he'd be much better. But yes, he's had a good year. Not 20 million dollars good, but good.

It got WORSE this year. Considerably worse. He swung at 72% of the strikes he saw this year, which is right on his career average. But on pitches OUTSIDE the zone, he swung at 34% of them!! That's almost 7% higher than his career average.

nithanyo
09-29-2010, 10:24 PM
It got WORSE this year. Considerably worse. He swung at 72% of the strikes he saw this year, which is right on his career average. But on pitches OUTSIDE the zone, he swung at 34% of them!! That's almost 7% higher than his career average.

Thats a horrible stat. Who is to say what is a strike zone. Strike zones vary with umpires.Vernon has always been a first pitch/free swinger. He really hasnt changed from 2006 when the Jays decided to give him 126 million

If it wasnt for the money 29 other teams would gladly take him off our hands. People shouldnt blame Wells for the money. He is playing to career average. If anything we should blame JP for giving out that mammoth contract but than again average players were getting allstar money that year. I for one think Vernon has had a terrific year and better than almost any other centre fielder in the game

2009mvp
09-29-2010, 11:05 PM
Thats a horrible stat. Who is to say what is a strike zone. Strike zones vary with umpires.Vernon has always been a first pitch/free swinger. He really hasnt changed from 2006 when the Jays decided to give him 126 million

If it wasnt for the money 29 other teams would gladly take him off our hands. People shouldnt blame Wells for the money. He is playing to career average. If anything we should blame JP for giving out that mammoth contract but than again average players were getting allstar money that year. I for one think Vernon has had a terrific year and better than almost any other centre fielder in the game

The rule book...

broncosfan_101
09-30-2010, 12:19 AM
The rule book...

Haha word.

nithanyo
09-30-2010, 12:31 AM
The rule book...

Lol ok i phrased it wrong. But a strike zone for one ump varies from another ump. One might have a wide zone, while another might have a low one and another might have one that changes on a nightly basis. To base stats on something that changes from ump to ump is pretty misleading no?

2009mvp
09-30-2010, 12:56 AM
^^Not really. Over 600, 700 PA's those kind of inconsistencies tend to even out. Besides, it still does a fairly good job of telling us what we already know (and that you weren't disagreeing with in the first place), that Vernon has poor plate discipline.

Manatoo
09-30-2010, 12:58 AM
Lol ok i phrased it wrong. But a strike zone for one ump varies from another ump. One might have a wide zone, while another might have a low one and another might have one that changes on a nightly basis. To base stats on something that changes from ump to ump is pretty misleading no?

Yes and for a few pitches that might be true, but you are dealing with thousands and thousands of pitches a year even for Vernon who averages the 5th worst P/PA in the AL.

nithanyo
09-30-2010, 09:14 AM
I remember at the start of the season when I said that I would wear a Wells Jersey to the home opener someone said they would boo me:confused: :facepalm:

Fans really need to get off his case. The torrid start in texas got fans off his back at the start of the season. Hence he hit well at home, batting .321 and 20HR at the rogers centre. Likewise fans were booing the **** out of him last season, and he hit .214 with 8hr last season at home while batting .300 on the road. Believe it or not but fan support really helps/hinders a player. So can we please lay off the hate towards our own players? Especially towards sum1 who actually had a good season like Wells.

Rotator
09-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Wells did have a nice season overall this year, obviously he will never live up to his contract but nothing he can do about that. If someone gave me that much money I would take it.

Nothing i like seeing better than when Vernon gets a hold of pitch and as soon as he hits it you know its gone. I love that sweet line drive swing he puts on those balls he lines over the LF fence.

At his age its too late to expect him to suddenly become a disciplined hitter and suddenly walk 100 times a year, won't happen. Some guys are just all or nothing guys, it sucks to watch when the fail but its awesome when they succeed.

The team is better when Wells is a contributor no question about it.