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DenButsu
09-24-2010, 07:44 PM
Here are some resources where you can find the stats themselves as well as statistical analysis blogs, primers, essays, and books:


Websites:

Basketball-Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/)

82games.com (http://www.82games.com/)

Basketball Value (http://www.basketballvalue.com/index.php)

HoopData (http://hoopdata.com/default.aspx)

Hardwood Paroxysm (http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/)

Basketball Prospectus (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/)

APBRmetrics (http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/index.php)

NBAstuffer.com (http://www.nbastuffer.com/)

PopcornMachine.net (http://popcornmachine.net/)

Basketball Geek (http://www.basketballgeek.com/data/)

Stats by Numbers (http://statsbynumbers.com/about/)

Team Rankings (http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/)

Basketball-Analysis (http://www.basketball-analysis.com/)


twitter:

http://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh (http://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh)

http://twitter.com/Hoopdata (http://twitter.com/Hoopdata)

http://twitter.com/bball_ref (http://twitter.com/bball_ref)

http://twitter.com/HPbasketball (http://twitter.com/HPbasketball)

http://twitter.com/basketballvalue (http://twitter.com/basketballvalue)

http://twitter.com/johnhollinger (http://twitter.com/johnhollinger)

http://twitter.com/dmorey (http://twitter.com/dmorey)


Books:

Basketball On Paper, by Dean Oliver (http://www.basketballonpaper.com/)


Primers, Glossaries, & Some Introductory Advanced Stats:

And here are a few good elementary primers on some of the main advanced metrics.


Click here for The Basketball Notebook Stats Primer (http://basketballnotebook.blogspot.com/2005/12/basketball-notebook-stats-primer.html) for a good overview.


Two great glossary/dictionary type references can be found at the following links:
The BBR Blog-tionary (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1120)
-and-
an Advanced Statistics Glossary (http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=2527) at APBRmetrics


Here, from Ben Q Rock at the Orlando Pinstriped Post, are a few more detailed primers which introduce some specific stats and concepts:

Advanced Metrics Handbook, Vol. 1: Effective Field Goal Percentage (http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/8/11/1617132/advanced-metrics-handbook-vol-1)
The formula:
(FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA

Advanced Metrics Handbook, Vol. 2: True Shooting Percentage (http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/8/16/1624997/advanced-metrics-handbook-vol-2)
The formula:
Points / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA))

Advanced Metrics Handbook, Vol. 3: Pace (http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/9/2/1662377/advanced-metrics-handbook-vol-3)
The formula:
0.96 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TO - OReb


From another thread, here Chronz' explanation of why that ".44" number is in the TS% formula:

Let me word it differently, if 44% of each free throw cost a possession then 1 pair of free throws take .88 right. The other 12% come from either AND1's technicals, flagrants, clear-path fouls, or as the third part of a shooting foul from behind the three-point arc.

Mathematically speaking, you start with a FTA = 1/2 a possession or 0.5, then you deduct for those 12% aforementioned sequences, where 0.5 * 0.12 = 0.06 and 0.5 - 0.06 = 0.44


And also from another thread, here's patsSOXknicks' breakdown of the difference between assist % and assist ratio:

Basketball-reference has Ast% vs. what they have on ESPN and Hoopdata with Assist Ratio. These are different statistics and they do have different meanings.

From basketball-reference


AST%
Assist Percentage (available since the 1964-65 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on on the floor.
From ESPN


AST: Assist Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
Both of these stats are better then assists per game as that completely ignores pace.

A look at the league leaders:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=assistRatio&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dassistRatio

Pretty different. Why? Well upon closer look, the guys with really high Ast% have higher USG% too compared to the guys with just high Assist Ratios. Lebron is not even on the league leaders for Assist Ratio but he's 5th in Ast%- it's because he's 2nd in the NBA in usage rate. So he's going to Ast on a really high percentage of his teams FG because he's used more (and is obviously a good passer too) then say someone like Jason Kidd who doesn't have everything run through him all the time. So for the possessions that Jason Kidd is involved in, a very high % of them end in an assist but the % of the teams FG that he assisted won't be as high since his USG rate isn't as high and because Ast% is based on the minutes you're on the floor, not on the possessions in which you're involved in.

---------------------------------




If you know of any additional websites, twitterers, books, etc. which you think should be added to the list above, please post them in this thread. :cheers:

tredigs
09-24-2010, 09:03 PM
Might as well just get this one stickied now. Should be the major reference post for both vets and "noobs" to advanced stats alike. Plus, it's going to be nice to have a thread to quickly edit + add on to as newer sites surface. Beyond that, it was this post in the general NBA forum (along with the original lobbying) that got this going, so great work Den.

I've been a lot more busy lately, and will be for the next couple months; but I'm pretty glad to see this forum finally come to fruition. I'll try to help keep her churning as much as possible.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2010, 09:03 PM
this needs to be stickied

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 11:01 PM
Might as well just get this one stickied now. Should be the major reference post for both vets and "noobs" to advanced stats alike.

lol

thanks for the thread. this is some good **** and teaches u alot.

lakers4sho
09-25-2010, 12:05 AM
I have a copy of Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper, and it is a really good read.

Patman
09-25-2010, 08:23 AM
I have a copy of Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper, and it is a really good read.

Ordered it yesterday, but it will take at least 2 weeks until they can deliver it.
Nice thread i think it covers all the Sites that are relevant and has some good explanation.

Wilson
09-25-2010, 09:05 AM
Thanks for posting all of this Den.

I've used basketball-reference and 82games a little bit in the past, I had no idea there was this much material available for advanced stats though. I'm hoping to become more knowledgeable in this area over the course of the season :)

DenButsu
09-25-2010, 03:51 PM
For those who said this should be stickied: I humbly agree, and thank you.

For those who have read before or ordered or are thinking of ordering Dean Oliver's book: I just received it, but I have had friends from abroad come here in the past 3 days, and I haven't read it yet.

But I will. And, without having read it, just by skimming through it, it's easy to see that anyone who takes this stuff seriously would benefit a hell of a lot by reading it. But for now all I can do is tip my hat, and be thankful that it's my team he works for. :cool:

------------------------------------------

My first question in this thread, in seeking to define what some of the main stats mean:

Which is more important as a measure of shooting efficiency for small forwards, TS%, or eFG%?

lakers4sho
09-26-2010, 02:15 AM
Well, eFG% and TS% measure two different things. eFG% is probably the stat that is much closer to the traditional FG%, because essentially it is still FGM/FGA, with 3PT given a little bit more weight.

Looking at the formula, TS%, on the other hand, seems to measure points scored relative to the shooting possessions used by the player. The formula can be simplified as Points / 2 * (possessions used).

I don't think one measure is "better" than the other. But, with both things considered, I think TS% is more important, especially for wings, because it shows you if a player can squeeze in as many points in the least number of shooting possessions possible, which I think is the definition of efficiency.

However, I think it can be improved by adding TOs in the denominator of the TS% formula. In my opinion, turnovers hurt the offensive efficiency of a player because with a turnover he can't even get a shot off.

abe_froman
09-26-2010, 02:45 AM
However, I think it can be improved by adding TOs in the denominator of the TS% formula. In my opinion, turnovers hurt the offensive efficiency of a player because with a turnover he can't even get a shot off.

that is actually a pretty good point,one i hsavent even thought of until just now.

Basketash
09-26-2010, 05:08 AM
Awesome!

Baller1
09-26-2010, 08:32 PM
Thanks Den.

Baller1
09-26-2010, 08:36 PM
Well, eFG% and TS% measure two different things. eFG% is probably the stat that is much closer to the traditional FG%, because essentially it is still FGM/FGA, with 3PT given a little bit more weight.

Looking at the formula, TS%, on the other hand, seems to measure points scored relative to the shooting possessions used by the player. The formula can be simplified as Points / 2 * (possessions used).

I don't think one measure is "better" than the other. But, with both things considered, I think TS% is more important, especially for wings, because it shows you if a player can squeeze in as many points in the least number of shooting possessions possible, which I think is the definition of efficiency.

However, I think it can be improved by adding TOs in the denominator of the TS% formula. In my opinion, turnovers hurt the offensive efficiency of a player because with a turnover he can't even get a shot off.

Pretty much summed it up for me right here. I prefer ts% as it seems to be an indicator of a player's overall efficiency. The fact that it pretty much integrates all aspects of a players scoring arsenal makes it a better stat to go by for me.

I like you're idea about adding TO's as well. However, ts% is simply a statistic based on shooting percentages alone (makes and misses). I think your idea could just be an entirely new stat in itself.

lakers4sho
09-26-2010, 08:49 PM
I agree that TS concerns mostly with "shooting". But if we're talking about "offensive efficiency", and if TS% is to be considered an "offensive efficiency" stat, I think TOs should be somehow incorporated within the formula.

Because like I said, turnovers should hurt a player's efficiency, or at least I think it should.

Baller1
09-26-2010, 08:56 PM
I agree that TS concerns mostly with "shooting". But if we're talking about "offensive efficiency", and if TS% is to be considered an "offensive efficiency" stat, I think TOs should be somehow incorporated within the formula.

Because like I said, turnovers should hurt a player's efficiency, or at least I think it should.

Yeah, I agree with this completely. My only concern is that ts% is strictly a statistic based off of shooting efficiency, and I think adding TO's would digress from that.

Either way, I think a statistic using your idea would be a valuable one.

DenButsu
09-26-2010, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I agree with this completely. My only concern is that ts% is strictly a statistic based off of shooting efficiency, and I think adding TO's would digress from that.

Either way, I think a statistic using your idea would be a valuable one.

Well, those two stats would simply measure different things, right? One would be more of a "pure" shooting efficiency stat, and the other more of an "overall efficiency per offensive possessions" stat.

Baller1
09-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Well, those two stats would simply measure different things, right? One would be more of a "pure" shooting efficiency stat, and the other more of an "overall efficiency per offensive possessions" stat.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much what I was getting at. I think leave ts% the way it is, and just develop an entirely new statistic including TO's in determining offensive efficiency.

lakers4sho
09-26-2010, 09:36 PM
Well, those two stats would simply measure different things, right? One would be more of a "pure" shooting efficiency stat, and the other more of an "overall efficiency per offensive possessions" stat.

yep, I would call eFG that pure shooting efficiency stat, while TS the efficiency per offensive possessions stat

================================================== ==================

Completely different topic, but has anyone here fully grasped Hollinger's PER equation?

I haven't had time to take a closer look at it. But today I wiki'd it, and boy that is one long *** formula :laugh2:

Patman
09-27-2010, 08:05 AM
Hm just found an other site via. 48minutesofhell.com

http://www.basketball-analysis.com

Has some analysis on it that he also published on 48minutesofhell.com one about if reduced workload correlates with longlivity.
Looks good at first glance but will have to delve deeper in to it to really see if it holds water. But the guy seems to know what he's doing.
So maybe we can add this site to the Top.

Will probably make a thread about some of his analysis if have the time to have closer look at them

DenButsu
09-27-2010, 09:42 AM
Hm just found an other site via. 48minutesofhell.com

http://www.basketball-analysis.com

Has some analysis on it that he also published on 48minutesofhell.com one about if reduced workload correlates with longlivity.
Looks good at first glance but will have to delve deeper in to it to really see if it holds water. But the guy seems to know what he's doing.
So maybe we can add this site to the Top.

Done. Thanks for the addition!

Basketash
09-27-2010, 01:27 PM
I agree that TS concerns mostly with "shooting". But if we're talking about "offensive efficiency", and if TS% is to be considered an "offensive efficiency" stat, I think TOs should be somehow incorporated within the formula.

Because like I said, turnovers should hurt a player's efficiency, or at least I think it should.

You should definetly take a look at TOs when talking about a offensive player's efficiency.

Baller1
09-29-2010, 02:36 AM
You should definetly take a look at TOs when talking about a offensive player's efficiency.

That's pretty much been agreed upon, the question is which stat to include TO's in.

daleja424
10-24-2010, 08:40 PM
I recommend that a small snippet should be left about each website so that users know what kind of info can be found on which sites. Probably helpful :shrug:

for instance I would never click on popcornmachine unless i already knew how cool it was...

arkanian215
10-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Yeah that'd be great. lol popcornmachine looks awesome.

Chronz
10-26-2010, 01:51 PM
That's pretty much been agreed upon, the question is which stat to include TO's in.

Offensive RTG already does that

DenButsu
10-29-2010, 06:10 AM
I recommend that a small snippet should be left about each website so that users know what kind of info can be found on which sites. Probably helpful :shrug:

for instance I would never click on popcornmachine unless i already knew how cool it was...

I'll try to get around to doing that at some point. May take a bit of time, so I'll probably have to do it in a few takes. But I agree, that's a good idea.

daleja424
11-06-2010, 10:10 PM
hoopsstats.com

I used it for bench stats:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/fga3/1-1

PatsSoxKnicks
11-10-2010, 09:28 PM
hoopsstats.com

I used it for bench stats:
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/11/7/fga3/1-1

Nice site because you can view how players/teams do against playoff teams, +.500 teams, etc. but yet another site that is too lazy to calculate per possession stats and gives per 48 and totals instead (I guess they want us to do the work?) It's very simple to calculate per possession stats (or at least pace adjust them). Like whats wrong with looking at assists/rebounds/points per possession or per 100 possessions? As long as we have a baseline (league average), we should be able to tell whats good and whats not.

It would be nice to see how some of these guys are doing against playoff teams using per possession stats but instead they give per 48 and totals.

Mane
11-18-2010, 03:44 AM
I may be late, but thanks for this. I'm trying to learn a bit about advanced statistics.

DenButsu
11-18-2010, 10:20 AM
The more the merrier :cheers:

Gators123
04-18-2011, 03:18 PM
Synergy sports is on twitter now

http://twitter.com/#!/mySynergySports

DenButsu
04-20-2011, 12:40 PM
Synergy sports is on twitter now

http://twitter.com/#!/mySynergySports

I want to be excited about this but it just feels like I'm standing outside the door of a restaurant that doesn't consider me worthy of entering, and then I'm supposed to feel grateful if they throw me a scrap of leftovers here and there.

DenButsu
06-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Okay, I'd like to see the stats-savvy community chime in on this one:

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=622552

PatsSoxKnicks
06-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Another site that needs to be added to the front page: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

RAPM seems to be the "hot" thing in the APBR community right now. Neil has used it on basketball-reference for some of his playoff previews. The error values are much better then adjusted +/-. Unfortunately, it involves some HEAVY math (stuff you'd learn at the graduate level). But J.E. has done some very interesting research and has player pairs rankings, as well as coaches.

Actually, speaking of Adjusted +/-, I realized there is no link to the method behind adjusted +/-. So if someone wants to add that, here's the article describing the method:
http://www.82games.com/comm30.htm
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/01/calculating-adjusted-plus-minus/

Here's an article that describes how it's split into offense and defense (it's at the bottom of the 82games.com article):
http://www.82games.com/ilardi2.htm
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/03/offensive-and-defensive-adjusted-plus-minus/

Another site that should be added is Count the Basket (http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/) Unfortunately, there are no more active blog posts since the guy who ran the site ended up with a job in the NBA (which should probably tell us that his research was pretty useful).

Swashcuff
04-27-2012, 08:47 AM
I almost never visit NBA.com anymore but I just thought I'd check them out today and I noticed that they actually done a pretty good job. Solid detail as well. I think NBA.com's stats page can be added here now.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/

DenButsu
04-27-2012, 01:00 PM
I almost never visit NBA.com anymore but I just thought I'd check them out today and I noticed that they actually done a pretty good job. Solid detail as well. I think NBA.com's stats page can be added here now.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/

Wow, they totally overhauled their stats pages, huh? Looks like they have some pretty handy tools there, too.

Swashcuff
05-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Wow, they totally overhauled their stats pages, huh? Looks like they have some pretty handy tools there, too.

I think its actually one of the best out there. Everyone should be aware of this now. With the NBA's official website taking such an holistic approach to advanced stats the naysayers are going to become fewer and fewer with the general consensus being that it is becoming accepted on all fronts.

Swashcuff
09-19-2012, 09:44 AM
http://vorped.com/bball/

Another good site to add to the 1st page. Really good if you want to break down shoot locations.

Swashcuff
10-15-2012, 04:29 PM
Another one to add to the front page http://www.thenbageek.com/

They live and die by Wins Produced there something which I'm not really a fan o but its a good site all things considered.

Gators123
08-11-2013, 08:47 AM
Uh, what happened to 82games.com? The site hasn't worked in days :sigh:

I hope its only temporary..

Goose17
08-11-2013, 09:17 AM
Uh, what happened to 82games.com? The site hasn't worked in days :sigh:

I hope its only temporary..

I was just coming here to ask this.

Anyone heard anything?

Chronz
08-14-2013, 10:22 PM
Uh, what happened to 82games.com? The site hasn't worked in days :sigh:

I hope its only temporary..

Its done this before, they will be back.

If you want to search through it just use the wayback machine:

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20130728071927/http://www.82games.com/

Gators123
08-16-2013, 02:27 PM
Its done this before, they will be back.

If you want to search through it just use the wayback machine:

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20130728071927/http://www.82games.com/

:laugh2: Good call. They are back.

Pablonovi
08-19-2013, 08:06 PM
Just found this thread and thanx so much. (I got lost in these two: NBA general and Lakers').
One question, am I too old to grasp advanced stats? hehe
What would you all recommend would be an approximate order of my start to studying advanced stats?
Pablo

Pablonovi
08-19-2013, 08:10 PM
Here's a question. At basketball-reference, they have a list of MVP shares; but I have never been able to find his/their explanation for what the formula for this is; AND is there a list somewhere of the MVP year-by-year "voting" (so you see everybody who got "shares")?

Chronz
08-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Never too old, MVP shares award pts for getting 1st, 2nd, 3rd (etc.) place votes

Pablonovi
08-20-2013, 04:37 PM
Never too old, MVP shares award pts for getting 1st, 2nd, 3rd (etc.) place votes

Hey High Horse,
Believe or don't, but I was really hoping that you'd see my post and respond. Why? Because:
1) In a recent post (somewhere) you mentioned what your High Horse-ness considers the 5 or so most important Advanced Stats. Right then I told myself to come back to that post and make a note of them; but wouldn't you know it, I didn't and then couldn't find it again.

So would you mind repeating your list of (4 or) 5 most important Advanced Stats? Thanx in advance.

2) "Never too old" - of course; I'm still learning all kinds of good sh__; although I might be forgetting as much or more other (good) stuff. (It makes me wonder whether, in the end, I'm gaining or losing - hehe).

3) In some other recent thread, I responded to 3RDASYSTEM by suggesting he consider that, in some future time of his life he might look back at his teenage-years and realize he made some mistakes then; so maybe he'd want to take it a little easier on Kobe's first 2 years in the NBA. You responded with something like, "You ... Are ... Unique, breh" (with the dots being yours). Remember that. Anyway, that post of yours got deleted for baiting; and my response to that post (where I said something like, "Ill take that as a compliment" - because I believed you WERE complimenting me on being unique/weird enough to try to reach somebody in a special way that might actually work).

I even wrote to the mod that deleted it - not because I feel like it was important, it certainly isn't; but because I just wanted to raise the possibility that that particular post was NOT an example of "bad behavior" on your part. So, if you care to respond to such an unimportant matter, let me know how you were meaning that "You're Unique" thingy you wrote. Again thanx in advance.

4) "MVP shares award pts for getting 1st, 2nd, 3rd (etc.) place votes". Well, yes, I guessed that much. But my question went a little deeper than that.
a) How many points does each placing receive;
b) Might you have a link for a website where they show the list of all history's MVP's placing WITH their awarded points?

Thanx High Horse
Pablo

PatsSoxKnicks
08-26-2013, 12:29 AM
http://blog.cacvantage.com/
http://www.cacvantage.com/i/media

Keep an eye on those 2 sites. The first one for now (they have some great stuff on their blog) and the 2nd one for later around Octoberish. They'll be launching a new site, with some amazing stats. You can already sort of get a taste of it on their blog and the information/stats should only grow once they launch their site. Should be a synergy on tons of steroids.

Also, for anyone who uses RAPM, it's not "pure RAPM" anymore but actually xRAPM. Have to dig through the APBR thread but basically a mix of statistical +/- and adjusted +/- (or blend of box score stats and +/- stats).

PatsSoxKnicks
08-26-2013, 12:44 AM
Just found this thread and thanx so much. (I got lost in these two: NBA general and Lakers').
One question, am I too old to grasp advanced stats? hehe
What would you all recommend would be an approximate order of my start to studying advanced stats?
Pablo

Well if you're looking to dive into a book on advanced stats in basketball, I'd recommend Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper. However, if you want to just start out reading on the internet before diving into Dean's book, I'd start with a lot of the links on the first page.

Also, if you're interested in knowing the exact calculations for PER and/or Win Shares, these links take you through that:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Of course, there are no explanations really so if you wanted those, you'd have to get Dean's book that I suggested above or one of Hollinger's very old Basketball Prospectus books that you can find for a couple bucks on Amazon. That is if you are interested in exactly how he comes up with his formula for PER.

The best statistic currently is VORP found on: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2013-aspm/

It's a more math oriented stat but it is the one that performed best in Sport Skeptics' (I think their site??) retrodiction/prediction contest. Although it's also entirely possible that stat is great for making predictions but not so great on what actually happened.


Here's a question. At basketball-reference, they have a list of MVP shares; but I have never been able to find his/their explanation for what the formula for this is; AND is there a list somewhere of the MVP year-by-year "voting" (so you see everybody who got "shares")?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html

That page has a link to each year with the MVP voting for that year.

And from basketball-reference's glossary page:


Award Share
The formula is (award points) / (maximum number of award points). For example, in the 2002-03 MVP voting Tim Duncan had 962 points out of a possible 1190. His MVP award share is 962 / 1190 = 0.81.

Pablonovi
08-26-2013, 01:36 AM
Well if you're looking to dive into a book on advanced stats in basketball, I'd recommend Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper. However, if you want to just start out reading on the internet before diving into Dean's book, I'd start with a lot of the links on the first page.

Also, if you're interested in knowing the exact calculations for PER and/or Win Shares, these links take you through that:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Of course, there are no explanations really so if you wanted those, you'd have to get Dean's book that I suggested above or one of Hollinger's very old Basketball Prospectus books that you can find for a couple bucks on Amazon. That is if you are interested in exactly how he comes up with his formula for PER.

The best statistic currently is VORP found on: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2013-aspm/

It's a more math oriented stat but it is the one that performed best in Sport Skeptics' (I think their site??) retrodiction/prediction contest. Although it's also entirely possible that stat is great for making predictions but not so great on what actually happened.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html

That page has a link to each year with the MVP voting for that year.

And from basketball-reference's glossary page:

Hey PatsSoxKnicks,
Here's one case of "you asked for it, you got it".
Thanx muchly,
Pablo

Pablonovi
12-18-2013, 11:22 PM
NBA GOAT Considerations, Help Please
Hey Guys/gals,
I'm working on putting together a presentation as a big piece-of-the-puzzle in terms of evaluating/comparing the NBA GOAT All-Time Top Players. I'm hoping to have it done before Jan. 1; (maybe even as an Xmas-present). I plan on presenting it here on PSD, as a contribution to everyone's GOAT-rankings thinking.

So far, I've got these three pieces:
1) PER (I've "processed" the 250+ best individual-season PERs (i.e. at least 24.0)) to extract out such things as: Prime, & Peak. I'm almost done this part).

2) ALL-NBA Teams (1st, 2nd, 3rd) (similar processing, just about done also).

3) MVP (MVP-shares) (similar processing, just about done also).

SO, what other key stat(s) should I "process" to round things out, make the "combo of info" as complete as possible?

Winshares? some other?

btw, what do you all think about the NBA's new "super-stat" PIE ??? Sekou Smith at his MVP-Ladder column/blog mentions PIE, claiming it is the best stat yet.

Here's a link to his latest MVP-Ladder blog:
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/

bagwell368
12-20-2013, 03:59 PM
NBA GOAT Considerations, Help Please
Hey Guys/gals,
I'm working on putting together a presentation as a big piece-of-the-puzzle in terms of evaluating/comparing the NBA GOAT All-Time Top Players. I'm hoping to have it done before Jan. 1; (maybe even as an Xmas-present). I plan on presenting it here on PSD, as a contribution to everyone's GOAT-rankings thinking.

So far, I've got these three pieces:
1) PER (I've "processed" the 250+ best individual-season PERs (i.e. at least 24.0)) to extract out such things as: Prime, & Peak. I'm almost done this part).

2) ALL-NBA Teams (1st, 2nd, 3rd) (similar processing, just about done also).

3) MVP (MVP-shares) (similar processing, just about done also).

SO, what other key stat(s) should I "process" to round things out, make the "combo of info" as complete as possible?

Winshares? some other?

btw, what do you all think about the NBA's new "super-stat" PIE ??? Sekou Smith at his MVP-Ladder column/blog mentions PIE, claiming it is the best stat yet.

Here's a link to his latest MVP-Ladder blog:
http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/

Sorry, don't like MVP and All NBA votes (back in the day they didn't have a third team for one thing). IMO you'd be making list of the subjective opinions of voters of all timers in their era.

PER is an abysmal stat that favors gunners over more balanced players, or D heavy players. Yuck.

Anymore on PIE?

As for Win Shares they are fatally flawed since teams that win more give out more WS's and prior the around '73 the metrics in use are very lame.
s

Pablonovi
12-21-2013, 08:44 PM
Sorry, don't like MVP and All NBA votes (back in the day they didn't have a third team for one thing). IMO you'd be making list of the subjective opinions of voters of all timers in their era.

PER is an abysmal stat that favors gunners over more balanced players, or D heavy players. Yuck.

Anymore on PIE?

As for Win Shares they are fatally flawed since teams that win more give out more WS's and prior the around '73 the metrics in use are very lame.
s

Hey bagwell,
About All-NBA 1st-Team & 2nd-Team: When I look over these lists, they look close enough to what my eye test tells me, in terms of the best players every year, by position. Do you think they are so far off as to be not-usable? (I think they are better than MVP-voting).

On PER: I knew about its weaknesses (because of people like yourself and other PSD-ers). I've been looking for the ONE stat that would be most representative. As I've been processing the PER numbers, they closely align with my eye test.

PIE, is the NBA's new stat. That's almost all I know about it. The NBA's Sekou Smith (MVP-Ladder, Hang-Time Blog) says it's the best stat ever. BUT, he does NOT explain either how it is compiled NOR why it is better than all the others. Additionally, while he does LIST it, he doesn't use it in his MVP-Ladder weekly column. Why?

I had not gone ahead and used Win Shares for the exact reason you give here. I just named it in my post as one example of (advanced) stats; from which I was/am hoping PSD-ers will recommend 1 to 3 of them (hopefully with explanations of why those and not others.)

What would be your suggestion for THE best single stat? Or some combo of 2-3 of them?

bagwell368
02-26-2014, 09:45 AM
The 1st/2nd/3rd team lists are better than the MVP's IMO.

PIE is another stat based measure that can't pay attention to anything that isn't a stat - like help D, like most events on D unless they are DReb, Steals, blocks. Within that it appears that it may outrank PER and EFF, but I didn't look closely enough. No matter what one tries the subjective element is going to have to come in to break up the order of players that are similar in stats.

GunFactor187
07-18-2014, 02:44 AM
Hey guys, just wondering are there any resources out there that can tell you player stats on isolation 3pt attempts vs. catch+shoot 3 pt attempts?

Pablonovi
07-18-2014, 03:54 PM
The 1st/2nd/3rd team lists are better than the MVP's IMO.

PIE is another stat based measure that can't pay attention to anything that isn't a stat - like help D, like most events on D unless they are DReb, Steals, blocks. Within that it appears that it may outrank PER and EFF, but I didn't look closely enough. No matter what one tries the subjective element is going to have to come in to break up the order of players that are similar in stats.

Hey bagwell,
I agree about All-NBA being better than MVPs. Having now spent some months working on / analyzing the All-NBA voting I've come to the conclusion to basically NOT use the 3rd-Team voting (perhaps except as a tie-breaker and only for post 1988 players) because:
1) It didn't exist before 1989, so you automatically penalize players in earlier seasons;
2) It's not that important anyway (the gap between the top two spots and between them and 3rd are almost always a lot bigger AND the gap between 3rd and a would-be forth tends to be miniscule).

I do think that the yearly ALL-League 1st-Team PLUS 2nd-Team Selections do reflect quite well who were indeed the best players each year (from my extensive "eye-testing" over the decades); and that the Cumulative ALL-NBA/ABA/NBL List is mighty useful for GOAT considerations and individual comparisons.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-24-2014, 05:37 PM
Hey guys, just wondering are there any resources out there that can tell you player stats on isolation 3pt attempts vs. catch+shoot 3 pt attempts?

SportVu data and Vantage data is even better.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-24-2014, 05:38 PM
Another good resource: http://nyloncalculus.com/

tonikukoc
11-13-2014, 03:34 PM
Our new NBA Advanced Stats and Analytic Site has been launched : www.nbaminer.com

we update team and advanced stats on a daily basis and also have all stats since 96-97 season.

Off and def ratings, ts%, efg%, four factors, and-ones and four point plays, violations, foul-assist-turnover details, player tracking stats, margins, comebacks, shooting zones-distances, exceptional games and much much more. if you are interested about statistics, you should check it out.

thanks.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-19-2014, 02:22 AM
Our new NBA Advanced Stats and Analytic Site has been launched : www.nbaminer.com

we update team and advanced stats on a daily basis and also have all stats since 96-97 season.

Off and def ratings, ts%, efg%, four factors, and-ones and four point plays, violations, foul-assist-turnover details, player tracking stats, margins, comebacks, shooting zones-distances, exceptional games and much much more. if you are interested about statistics, you should check it out.

thanks.

Whoa, didn't know you guys were on PSD