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Mile High Champ
09-23-2010, 11:06 AM
Well the top 10 at each position is now complete, time to end it with the final poll's. For the second year in a row, we will vote to see who are the 10 best players in the NBA are. The format is the exact same so please make your vote for who you feel are the best player in the league. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

DONT FORGET TO VOTE

NBA Player Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7)
8)
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

Mile High Champ
09-23-2010, 11:08 AM
For me its Dirk all the way here.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-23-2010, 11:12 AM
Gasol

Khalifa21
09-23-2010, 11:15 AM
Melooooooooo

Niro
09-23-2010, 11:17 AM
i voted dirk here

TheTakeOver24
09-23-2010, 11:22 AM
I've changed my mind, I'm going with Melo here...
Put up similar stats to Durant, had a better record than Durant, and played better in the playoffs than Durant. If Durant is #4, Melo has to be at least #7.

jkiddvc20
09-23-2010, 11:23 AM
Melo and its not a competition.

avrpatsfan
09-23-2010, 11:26 AM
Gasol.

Avenged
09-23-2010, 11:50 AM
I'm reluctant to go with Gasol over some of these guys, I just don't think he's at 7..

I'll go with Deron.

$KnicksAndKobe$
09-23-2010, 12:00 PM
Deron or Melo? Damn I can't decide ...

Melo

Lloyd Christmas
09-23-2010, 12:04 PM
Deron here. Best all around player on the board.

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 12:05 PM
I'm intrigued by everyone selecting Nowitski over Duncan.

Duncan bested Dirk in PER, eFG%, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, DRtg, DWS, and WS/48

He was even in STL% and ORtg.

He did that with a lower Usage%.

So... pretty much the only thing that Dirk does better is score.

Add to that the fact that Tim Duncan is one of the best leaders and Champions in the game...

Why does everyone rate Dirk better? I don't even think it's close.

P.S. - Duncan's efficiency is staying about the same while Dirk's PER, eFG% and TRB% have been on a steady decline for 3 years now.

mikantsass
09-23-2010, 12:06 PM
Melo for me

pebloemer
09-23-2010, 12:14 PM
Mile High, I think you got the perfect 7 names to put on the poll, but moving forward you may have desperate cries for more names.

Personally, I'm not ready to vote yet. I'll wait for someone to convince me. I think all 7 arguments can be made. Leaning towards, Deron, Melo, Duncan, Pau or Dirk though. I have to think one of the PF's should belong here, but I can't gloss over Deron and Melo.

LTBaByyy
09-23-2010, 12:20 PM
Dirk had better year last year than melo and have had a better career team wise and individual

Either way we look at it, its Dirk

Sadds The Gr8
09-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Dirk. puts up pretty much the same #'s as Melo and has been doing it for longer.

Brooklyn Mets
09-23-2010, 12:22 PM
Melooooooooo

this

J_M_B
09-23-2010, 12:27 PM
I'm going with Deron, in my opinion, the best point guard in the NBA today.

beasted86
09-23-2010, 12:31 PM
I actually think Dirk is better than Carmelo.
Neither are strong defenders... but Dirk is still better.

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 12:31 PM
Dirk had better year last year than melo and have had a better career team wise and individual

Either way we look at it, its Dirk

Except... Duncan had a much, much better season than Dirk last year.... and Dirk is steadily declining while Duncan has stayed relatively steady for the last 3 years.

LTBaByyy
09-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Except... Duncan had a much, much better season than Dirk last year.... and Dirk is steadily declining while Duncan has stayed relatively steady for the last 3 years.

How is he declining??? haha he was 2nd team all NBA last year?

duncan wasnt even on the any of the 3 teams

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 12:37 PM
Dirk. puts up pretty much the same #'s as Melo and has been doing it for longer.

And Duncan puts up better numbers and has been doing it for longer...

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 12:42 PM
How is he declining??? haha he was 2nd team all NBA last year?

duncan wasnt even on the any of the 3 teams

The only number that hasn't declined in the past 3 seasons for Dirk Nowitski is Points Per Game. That is How he's declining.

And 1st Team/2nd Team are popularity contests.

That doesn't change the fact that across the board Duncan had a better statistical season, was more efficient than any PF except Chris Bosh, and is better Defensively than most PF's in the league - far better than Dirk, Pau, Bosh, Amar'e, or Boozer.

Testaverde16
09-23-2010, 12:50 PM
its tough to go against dirk, but when i look at it, i would rather have melo right now

LTBaByyy
09-23-2010, 12:54 PM
The only number that hasn't declined in the past 3 seasons for Dirk Nowitski is Points Per Game. That is How he's declining.

And 1st Team/2nd Team are popularity contests.

That doesn't change the fact that across the board Duncan had a better statistical season, was more efficient than any PF except Chris Bosh, and is better Defensively than most PF's in the league - far better than Dirk, Pau, Bosh, Amar'e, or Boozer.

Actually duncan made the third team last year!!! And dirk made the second team

But I guess your right it has nothing to do with anything lol mhmmm

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 12:55 PM
Actually duncan made the third team last year!!! And dirk made the second team

But I guess your right it has nothing to do with anything lol mhmmm

Just keep pointing to the teams. Ignore the stats. Of coure. lol.

Duncan was better in almost every single major category. Not to mention Duncan has shown no significant patterns of decline in the past 3 years.

On the other hand, Dirk, who was worse in almost every single major category has shown significant signs of decline over the past 3 years...

You want to address that point? Or are you more interested in bringing up popularity contests?

Sadds The Gr8
09-23-2010, 12:56 PM
And Duncan puts up better numbers and has been doing it for longer...

Duncan isn't as much of a threat as he used to be. His efficiency is the same but his other stats took a hit since he doesn't get the ball as much and can't carry an offense like Dirk can right now.

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 01:01 PM
Duncan isn't as much of a threat as he used to be. His efficiency is the same but his other stats took a hit since he doesn't get the ball as much and can't carry an offense like Dirk can right now.

His team doesn't need him to carry an offense. That's the point. But Duncan is still the all-around better player.

The ability to "carry an offense" by scoring is not a single attribute that makes you a great or even "better" player.

pebloemer
09-23-2010, 01:11 PM
His team doesn't need him to carry an offense. That's the point. But Duncan is still the all-around better player.

The ability to "carry an offense" by scoring is not a single attribute that makes you a great or even "better" player.

Your Duncan arguments gave you my vote. However, he won't be in the running this poll. But the awareness should be there for future polls :).

Sadds The Gr8
09-23-2010, 01:44 PM
His team doesn't need him to carry an offense. That's the point. But Duncan is still the all-around better player.

The ability to "carry an offense" by scoring is not a single attribute that makes you a great or even "better" player.

because he can't. Duncan doesn't have the dominance that he used to. I don't understand how people can claim Duncan is the same player he was 5-6 years ago just because his efficiency is the same...

Duncan can't just go out and flat-out dominate a playoff series like he used too. That's why he's falling off of people's radars.

jimbobjarree
09-23-2010, 01:49 PM
why melo, when deron just led his injury ravaged team past Melo's without homecourt?

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 01:52 PM
Duncan here

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 01:53 PM
Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got.

If the New York Knicks, rumored to be the favorites to land Melo if he decides to leave Denver, are expecting salvation from Anthony next summer, they're going to be very disappointed with their investment. It would be a much a wiser move to throw that cash toward the pursuit of Chris Paul, a real max player.

daleja424
09-23-2010, 01:58 PM
I have deron at 7 as a do it all guy, then Melo at 8 as an elite scorer, then Dirk at 9, then Duncan at 10 for me...

MagicBucsSox
09-23-2010, 02:09 PM
its dirk, this list sucks cause durant is extremely high it should be top 10
kobe
wade
bron
dwight
paul
dirk
deron
nash
Melo
durant

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 02:13 PM
because he can't. Duncan doesn't have the dominance that he used to. I don't understand how people can claim Duncan is the same player he was 5-6 years ago just because his efficiency is the same...

Duncan can't just go out and flat-out dominate a playoff series like he used too. That's why he's falling off of people's radars.

I will repeat what I've said before.

The ability to "take over a game offensively" is not something that makes you a better "all-around player" unless you're also comparable in other areas.

So, your point is moot. Secondly, you've still yet to address the fact that Duncan is still productive in every other category while Dirk is slipping.

I also never said he is the same player he was 5 or 6 years ago. I'm saying he was that much better than every other PF in the game other than KG that even though he's dropped he's STILL better (and sadly injuries have greatly hampered KG).

You're giving WAY too much credit to "ability to score."

Sadds The Gr8
09-23-2010, 02:39 PM
I will repeat what I've said before.

The ability to "take over a game offensively" is not something that makes you a better "all-around player" unless you're also comparable in other areas.

So, your point is moot. Secondly, you've still yet to address the fact that Duncan is still productive in every other category while Dirk is slipping.

I also never said he is the same player he was 5 or 6 years ago. I'm saying he was that much better than every other PF in the game other than KG that even though he's dropped he's STILL better (and sadly injuries have greatly hampered KG).

You're giving WAY too much credit to "ability to score."

no, you're just assuming that i mean scoring when i talk about dominate. I'm talking about rebounding and defense (shot-blocking, paint-presence) to go along with scoring. Duncan doesn't have those (33pts, 18 rebs, 5 blks) games anymore. This isn't 2005...Duncan isn't the same player and isn't considered as much of a threat as Dirk is right now. Duncan's decline is more noticeable than Dirks.

Jewelz0376
09-23-2010, 03:35 PM
I went with Dwill here... Im a big fan of Melo, but I have him at #8 and he wont move any higher until he steps up his D...

DoJoTheSlasher
09-23-2010, 03:59 PM
I am tired of all the Dirk hate on here.........

Dirk is the best PF today, he is better than Duncan today no competition. All time? Sure. Duncan is the greatest PF of all time and a top 10 player of all time while Dirk is about top 30.

Today? Dirk has shown no point of decline except a rebound or two less a game. Duncan had so many DUD games this year... He is on the decline but is still a definite top 12-13 player in the game. In the SA/DAL series, Ginobili, Hill and Parker were the reason we lost, not Duncan. Dirk was the reason we didn't lose by 20 each game.

Most SA fans will tell you that Dirk is better today and all DAL/SA fans will tell you Duncan is better all time.

So please stop hating Dirk just because he doesn't have a ring and that makes him terrible. Put LeBron at about 15 or 16 if we are gonna base it off of that.


Anyways, Dirk gets the vote here. He owns Melo in head to head matchups and is the overall better player. Better scorer, rebounder, passer, clutch, shooter, FT shooter. Neither is great defensively but I'll give it to Melo just because he is so strong and active.


Dirk, Deron then Melo/Gasol.

Rivera
09-23-2010, 04:12 PM
my PSD mentor hawkeye is gonna hate me for this

but the pick is Melo...

dude is just a flat out beast this is his spot right here


sorry hawkeye

pebloemer
09-23-2010, 04:21 PM
I am tired of all the Dirk hate on here.........

Dirk is the best PF today, he is better than Duncan today no competition. All time? Sure. Duncan is the greatest PF of all time and a top 10 player of all time while Dirk is about top 30.

Today? Dirk has shown no point of decline except a rebound or two less a game. Duncan had so many DUD games this year... He is on the decline but is still a definite top 12-13 player in the game. In the SA/DAL series, Ginobili, Hill and Parker were the reason we lost, not Duncan. Dirk was the reason we didn't lose by 20 each game.

Most SA fans will tell you that Dirk is better today and all DAL/SA fans will tell you Duncan is better all time.

So please stop hating Dirk just because he doesn't have a ring and that makes him terrible. Put LeBron at about 15 or 16 if we are gonna base it off of that.


Anyways, Dirk gets the vote here. He owns Melo in head to head matchups and is the overall better player. Better scorer, rebounder, passer, clutch, shooter, FT shooter. Neither is great defensively but I'll give it to Melo just because he is so strong and active.


Dirk, Deron then Melo/Gasol.

It is not hating to look through statistics and see that in many different areas, Duncan had a stronger year than Nowitzki. I actually think the strongest argument for Dirk over Duncan is one that no one has really mentioned. Dirk is able to play a larger load of minutes each game. Part of that is Popovich ensuring Duncan stays fresh and healthy, but Dirk's ability to remain on the court for more minutes per game certainly helps his case. But if you compare minute for minute, it is hard to argue that Dirk had a better year. Duncan's "decline" was a horrible oversight by basic per game stats. He was unbelievable last season. He just played less minutes than usual. It isn't meant to be a slight towards Dirk.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2010&p2=duncati01&y2=2010

Raidaz4Life
09-23-2010, 04:27 PM
Gotta be Dirk for me

ManningToTyree
09-23-2010, 04:41 PM
Deron here. Best all around player on the board.

This

Kashmir13579
09-23-2010, 04:44 PM
MELO!!! LOL at deron falling out of the top 5. you guys are all hypocrites and followers.

Kashmir13579
09-23-2010, 04:56 PM
If the New York Knicks, rumored to be the favorites to land Melo if he decides to leave Denver, are expecting salvation from Anthony next summer, they're going to be very disappointed with their investment. It would be a much a wiser move to throw that cash toward the pursuit of Chris Paul, a real max player.

a knick team with anthony is much better than a knick team without anthony (assuming we don't have to give up both of our young SFs). we don't know yet if a dantoni style team can win a ring. what we do know is that a dantoni style team can make it to the conference finals in the west. i can assure you knicks fans would not be "disappointed" with that.

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 04:59 PM
a knick team with anthony is much better than a knick team without anthony (assuming we don't have to give up both of our young SFs). we don't know yet if a dantoni style team can win a ring. what we do know is that a dantoni style team can make it to the conference finals in the west. i can assure you knicks fans would not be "disappointed" with that.

sure it can, with efficient weapons. The Knicks would be MUCH better off giving Paul the max over Melo if they want to go deep into the playoffs.

Mplsman
09-23-2010, 05:00 PM
Dirka Dirka.

DoubleDragon
09-23-2010, 05:07 PM
(Laker fan)
Gotta go with the Melo man here. Though Deron, Dirk and Pau look good, Melo's the most dangerous of the group in my opinion, factoring in his defense, size and skill and overall lethal presence. If either of the ones I mentioned make it instead, it won't offend me, but Melo gets it here.

devv83
09-23-2010, 05:36 PM
Melo all the way here


SAD HAWKEYE LOL

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 06:08 PM
Melo all the way here


SAD HAWKEYE LOL

how so?

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 06:08 PM
it is simply amazing what PPG do for a player's worth in the eye of the average fan

Angel2Maverick
09-23-2010, 06:22 PM
Melo is overated, Dirk should be here in my opinion

Raidaz4Life
09-23-2010, 06:25 PM
it is simply amazing what PPG do for a player's worth in the eye of the average fan

Not really.... the game is all about points in the end whoever scores the most wins.

Lloyd Christmas
09-23-2010, 06:34 PM
Not really.... the game is all about points in the end whoever scores the most wins.

But its the TEAM that scores the most points that wins. Not the team with the guy that scores the most points.

Kashmir13579
09-23-2010, 06:42 PM
sure it can, with efficient weapons. The Knicks would be MUCH better off giving Paul the max over Melo if they want to go deep into the playoffs.

thats a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there. paul isnt on the market right now, melo is.

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 06:45 PM
Not really.... the game is all about points in the end whoever scores the most wins.

its thinking like this that makes me think the advanced stats movement will never make it, and fans will live in the dark for good

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 06:46 PM
thats a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there. paul isnt on the market right now, melo is.

touche dude. But if they want Melo, they should trade for him, THEN sign Paul. Using their capspace on Melo will disappoint Knicks fans.

greg_ory_2005
09-23-2010, 06:48 PM
Gotta go with Dirk.

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 06:53 PM
no, you're just assuming that i mean scoring when i talk about dominate. I'm talking about rebounding and defense (shot-blocking, paint-presence) to go along with scoring. Duncan doesn't have those (33pts, 18 rebs, 5 blks) games anymore. This isn't 2005...Duncan isn't the same player and isn't considered as much of a threat as Dirk is right now. Duncan's decline is more noticeable than Dirks.


no, you're just assuming that i mean scoring when i talk about dominate. I'm talking about rebounding and defense (shot-blocking, paint-presence) to go along with scoring. Duncan doesn't have those (33pts, 18 rebs, 5 blks) games anymore. This isn't 2005...Duncan isn't the same player and isn't considered as much of a threat as Dirk is right now. Duncan's decline is more noticeable than Dirks.

Dirk has never had 33pt, 18 reb, 5 blk games. Maybe 33 pts. Maybe 18 rebs. Maybe 5 blocks. Never in the same night.

However, on any given night Duncan can still do more to help his team win than Dirk can. The stats prove it. Duncan is more consistent.

It'd be different if this were even close, but the stats are UGLY how in favor of Duncan they are.

Dirk's shooting has gone down. His passing has gone down. His rebounds have gone down.

All that has gone down for Duncan is his scoring ability. He still has the ability to take over a game with rebounding and shot-blocking. Dirk has never had the ability to do this....

Do you even watch basketball?

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Not really.... the game is all about points in the end whoever scores the most wins.

So.... scoring is the measure of that? This really is one of the saddest things I've seen on PSD lately.

Raidaz4Life
09-23-2010, 06:57 PM
its thinking like this that makes me think the advanced stats movement will never make it, and fans will live in the dark for good

Here we go with advanced stats again...........

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 06:59 PM
its thinking like this that makes me think the advanced stats movement will never make it, and fans will live in the dark for good

:( I agree.

Kashmir13579
09-23-2010, 07:01 PM
hawkeye, obviously you think advanced stats are the tell all and not everybody agrees (including myself). there's far too many variables to go solely off stats. melo's post game is what puts him over the top IMO.


EDIT: LOL, hawkeye, i read the original post that you were quoting and i retract this statement. :D woops.

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 07:03 PM
Here we go with advanced stats again...........

Because they matter. They cut through the B.S. Per game are incredibly unhelpful. Why do you think that Baseball moved on long ago?

Kashmir13579
09-23-2010, 07:07 PM
touche dude. But if they want Melo, they should trade for him, THEN sign Paul. Using their capspace on Melo will disappoint Knicks fans.

i think (if he has his heart set on NY) a trade will be made before the deadline. denver will really have no other choice but to let him walk.

Raidaz4Life
09-23-2010, 07:07 PM
give it a rest hawkeye, obviously you think advanced stats are the tell all and not everybody agrees (including myself). there's far too many variables to go solely off stats. melo's post game is what puts him over the top IMO.

Of course they are


TS%= Offensive ability
TRB%= Rebounding ability
AST%= Passing ability
PER= Players overall ability to help their team

Raidaz4Life
09-23-2010, 07:11 PM
Because they matter. They cut through the B.S. Per game are incredibly unhelpful. Why do you think that Baseball moved on long ago?

I disagree any statistic can be flawed if not interpreted properly. Traditional statistics measure just what they claim to.... its people that add their own inferences to them. The same thing can be said about advanced statistics.

IversonIsKrazy
09-23-2010, 07:14 PM
Deron > Dwight, Durrant

I went with D-Will here, Durant is starting to get overrated, u can say he has the potential to be the best, and will be that good in the future, but RIGHT NOW, I don't think he is better overall than CP or D-Will

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 07:27 PM
I disagree any statistic can be flawed if not interpreted properly. Traditional statistics measure just what they claim to.... its people that add their own inferences to them. The same thing can be said about advanced statistics.

You're correct. Any statistic can be flawed. But that doesn't mean they're equally flawed. That simply doesn't follow.

And yes, all statistics are interpreted and people add their own inferences. HOwever, again, it doesn't logically follow that this is true to equal degrees between the two sets of statistics.

The fact is that advanced statistics remove a lot of the grey area and interpretive area. Thus, while they're still interpreted and flawed, they are by nature less-so than regular per-game stats.

Bruno
09-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Had to go with Dirk. His team lost in the first round again, but it wasn't because he didn't step up big. His playoff PER crushed his regular season PER, 22.9/28.3.

A lot of these guys (Dirk-TD-Pau-Dwill and a healthy Roy) are all in all pretty equal IMO. For me, Melo falls more in the 9-14 range.

BRADfromOZ
09-23-2010, 07:46 PM
For me it was a toss up between Williams, Roy and Duncan.

MagicBucsSox
09-23-2010, 07:48 PM
Deron > Dwight, Durrant

I went with D-Will here, Durant is starting to get overrated, u can say he has the potential to be the best, and will be that good in the future, but RIGHT NOW, I don't think he is better overall than CP or D-Will

ok first off why do u have eminem the #1 rapper? the guy is wack and irrelevant except in the burbs for obvious reasons. and over jayz and big all time?????? lol wtf

MagicBucsSox
09-23-2010, 07:51 PM
For me it was a toss up between Williams, Roy and Duncan.

roy wtf he aint nothing, pierce is better than him and Pierce is a top 10 player idky he isnt on this list

masalex1205
09-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Give my Timmy D, he's forever underrated

If he played in NYC he'd be in the GOAT discussion

masalex1205
09-23-2010, 07:58 PM
Deron > Dwight, Durrant

I went with D-Will here, Durant is starting to get overrated, u can say he has the potential to be the best, and will be that good in the future, but RIGHT NOW, I don't think he is better overall than CP or D-Will



How are there 5 rappers alive better than Andre 3000? Thus, you are a walking :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Here we go with advanced stats again...........

yes, here we go again. Either embrace them, or look like a fool when debating a player.

Hawkeye15
09-23-2010, 08:13 PM
I disagree any statistic can be flawed if not interpreted properly. Traditional statistics measure just what they claim to.... its people that add their own inferences to them. The same thing can be said about advanced statistics.

what do you mean by traditional statistics? Per game? Hahahahahahaha.

You are better than that. If you continue to argue with archaic stats, then we are done debating

ET92898
09-23-2010, 08:22 PM
Tie between Melo and Williams but i voted Melo.

CHANGO
09-23-2010, 08:40 PM
Melo is better for me!

DoJoTheSlasher
09-23-2010, 08:54 PM
Dirk has never had 33pt, 18 reb, 5 blk games. Maybe 33 pts. Maybe 18 rebs. Maybe 5 blocks. Never in the same night.

However, on any given night Duncan can still do more to help his team win than Dirk can. The stats prove it. Duncan is more consistent.

It'd be different if this were even close, but the stats are UGLY how in favor of Duncan they are.

Dirk's shooting has gone down. His passing has gone down. His rebounds have gone down.
All that has gone down for Duncan is his scoring ability. He still has the ability to take over a game with rebounding and shot-blocking. Dirk has never had the ability to do this....

Do you even watch basketball?

Dirk shot 48.1 % from the field (2nd best of his career)
Dirk shot 42.1 % from 3pt range (Best of his career)
Dirk shot 91.5 % from the FT line (Best of his careeer)


All of this last season. How has his shooting gone down?

If you would watch games, Dirk was a more than average passer last year.

He commits few turnovers, and he has the ball alot in his hands.

His rebounding is down yes, but he has Haywood, Marion, Butler and Kidd also getting many rebounds.

His scoring is as good as ever.

Almost a steal and a block a game.

I think he shot 98% FT in the 4th quarter last year?

Twenty 30+ point games last year.




This was all last year. He is far from the decline. He is still a top 5 player at the top of his game and he will be playing at this level for about 2-3 more years, THEN he will start to decline.

Hustlenomics
09-23-2010, 08:58 PM
the fact that carmelo is still here is a joke

bbcmillionaire
09-23-2010, 09:05 PM
Dwill or melo?

HoopsDrive
09-23-2010, 09:10 PM
Melo

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 09:28 PM
Dirk shot 48.1 % from the field (2nd best of his career)
Dirk shot 42.1 % from 3pt range (Best of his career)
Dirk shot 91.5 % from the FT line (Best of his careeer)


All of this last season. How has his shooting gone down?

If you would watch games, Dirk was a more than average passer last year.

He commits few turnovers, and he has the ball alot in his hands.

His rebounding is down yes, but he has Haywood, Marion, Butler and Kidd also getting many rebounds.

His scoring is as good as ever.

Almost a steal and a block a game.

I think he shot 98% FT in the 4th quarter last year?

Twenty 30+ point games last year.




This was all last year. He is far from the decline. He is still a top 5 player at the top of his game and he will be playing at this level for about 2-3 more years, THEN he will start to decline.

Top of his game!?
:eyebrow:

I'm done. Sorry. TS% and eFG% have clearly been on the decline. Use archaic stats if you like. His PER has been way down on the decline. Sorry bro. Can't even communicate.

It's like trying to have Catherine Keller speak to Julian of Norwich. Even though they both speak/spoke "English" the languages they speak are not even recognizable at the same.

MrFastBreak
09-23-2010, 10:56 PM
I disagree any statistic can be flawed if not interpreted properly. Traditional statistics measure just what they claim to.... its people that add their own inferences to them. The same thing can be said about advanced statistics.

You mean traditional stats as in PPG right? Yes, they do measure what they claim to. If youre looking to see how many PPG a player scores, than that's the stat youd use. But I just dont get why guys use it to measure a player's scoring ability when there's other stats out there. And yes, any stat can be flawed, esp the ones used commonly by fans to support their arguments. Im tellin you man, youd do better with advanced stats than any others.

Why not boil a player's numbers down to a per possession level or account for pace when there's signs of statpadding? Why not take into account how some players have more rebounding opportunities than others? The fact that lots of people haven't caught on to the true value of adv metrics baffles me. Why is it so hard to turn away from per game averages?

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 11:08 PM
You mean traditional stats as in PPG right? Yes, they do measure what they claim to. If youre looking to see how many PPG a player scores, than that's the stat youd use. But I just dont get why guys use it to measure a player's scoring ability when there's other stats out there. And yes, any stat can be flawed, esp the ones used commonly by fans to support their arguments. Im tellin you man, youd do better with advanced stats than any others.

Why not boil a player's numbers down to a per possession level or account for pace when there's signs of statpadding? Why not take into account how some players have more rebounding opportunities than others? The fact that lots of people haven't caught on to the true value of adv metrics baffles me. Why is it so hard to turn away from per game averages?

Because they would be forced to admit other players aren't as good as they'd always thought. They'd be forced to admit guys they thought were #1 at their position aren't actually.

People who are willing to learn and be corrected are rare. You see it even in graduate programs. People will take graduate school so as to gain the credential to prove they are right, not to learn, be stretched, be challenged and - God forbid - even change their opinion on something.

Anyone who goes through all of my PSD posts can see that even in my 2 months of being here I've changed my opinion on multiple opinions. Not least of which is that of Wade>James. I had to finally face up to the fact that LeBron truly is better than Wade - albeit not by a ton.

But, why change your paradigm when you don't have to?

IversonIsKrazy
09-23-2010, 11:21 PM
ok first off why do u have eminem the #1 rapper? the guy is wack and irrelevant except in the burbs for obvious reasons. and over jayz and big all time?????? lol wtf

Jay-Z is good and all, but he started his career by spitting ryhmes out of Biggies mouth. Eminem is amazingly underrated. There will never be another rapper like him, his flow, his style, how real he is, never will even come close, I might sound ignorant when I say this, but If he was Black he would be considered better than Biggie without a doubt. - And I'm not even biased abt that since I'm not white. Eminem is the best rapper right now, I don't see why Jay-Z' blueprint 3 would be considered better than Em's Recovery.

IversonIsKrazy
09-23-2010, 11:24 PM
How are there 5 rappers alive better than Andre 3000? Thus, you are a walking :facepalm:

Andre? U mean the guy who hasn't made a single in 3 years?? Eminem is a top 10 rapper of all-time, as is Nas and Jay-Z. Andre is not. Andre retired. Why would I consider him in my top 5 right now??

DoJoTheSlasher
09-23-2010, 11:33 PM
Top of his game!?
:eyebrow:

I'm done. Sorry. TS% and eFG% have clearly been on the decline. Use archaic stats if you like. His PER has been way down on the decline. Sorry bro. Can't even communicate.

It's like trying to have Catherine Keller speak to Julian of Norwich. Even though they both speak/spoke "English" the languages they speak are not even recognizable at the same.

First off, maybe instead of being an *******, you can learn to respect othee people's posts and not dick ride everything you say.

Dirk is clearly at the top of his game, and his actual play, not some tz + x - 67 / pie stats, show it. Learn to respect a white guy who can actually play basketball.

tredigs
09-23-2010, 11:35 PM
I've voted Duncan for the past couple polls. Partly for the fact that he deserves more respect, partly because he is indeed arguably a top 6 player in the league. Still.

Dirk/Pau/Deron are right there with him, with Nash/Roy/Melo behind those three.

Not surprised Melo is winning this poll. Absolutely doesn't deserve it... but it's not surprising. Arguing it would be completely circular and tie into 18 other threads on the subject - so I won't even bother.

What I've learned from these ranking polls over the past couple months is that they hold absolutely no weight and are incredibly fickle (Pau going #1, while a month prior Amare was rated vastly higher than him in a head to head. Or Cp3 going higher than D. Will in the overall rankings, but lower in the PG rankings).

In summation, I can't stand the voting on these polls.

MELO 15
09-23-2010, 11:36 PM
MELO should be 4, but what the heck, we'll see this year

WadeKobe
09-23-2010, 11:42 PM
First off, maybe instead of being an *******, you can learn to respect othee people's posts and not dick ride everything you say.

Dirk is clearly at the top of his game, and his actual play, not some tz + x - 67 / pie stats, show it. Learn to respect a white guy who can actually play basketball.

First of all, I didn't disrespect your post. I simply said we're speaking two completely different languages and can't even begin to communicate on the manner.

I then used an analogy where I used a contemporary feminist writer who writes in the field of Theopoetics which is one of the most advanced fields of the English language and compared her to an ancient English Christian Mystic who wrote one of the first pieces that we have in the English language.

Secondly, "not some tz + x - 67 / pie stats"??? It's called statistics. That's what statistics is. It is a field of mathematics aimed at using mathematical formulae and analysis to cut through the fat of regular statistical data. That's exactly why it's relevant, helpful, and meaningful.

Lastly, respect a white guy? Did you really just pull the race card?

First of all, I'm white. Second of all I've got Jerry West listed as my #4 SG of all time, Jason Kidd as my #3 PG of all time, and Larry Bird as my #2 SF of all time (when everything is said and done).

So... clearly I have nothing against white guys and pulling the race card just makes you sound foolish. I'm a 100% white boy who is 60% Scottish, 30% Irish, 10% English....

I've got plenty of "White boy" love. GTFO.

sargon21
09-24-2010, 12:09 AM
First of all, I didn't disrespect your post. I simply said we're speaking two completely different languages and can't even begin to communicate on the manner.

I then used an analogy where I used a contemporary feminist writer who writes in the field of Theopoetics which is one of the most advanced fields of the English language and compared her to an ancient English Christian Mystic who wrote one of the first pieces that we have in the English language.

Secondly, "not some tz + x - 67 / pie stats"??? It's called statistics. That's what statistics is. It is a field of mathematics aimed at using mathematical formulae and analysis to cut through the fat of regular statistical data. That's exactly why it's relevant, helpful, and meaningful.

Lastly, respect a white guy? Did you really just pull the race card?

First of all, I'm white. Second of all I've got Jerry West listed as my #4 SG of all time, Jason Kidd as my #3 PG of all time, and Larry Bird as my #2 SF of all time (when everything is said and done).

So... clearly I have nothing against white guys and pulling the race card just makes you sound foolish. I'm a 100% white boy who is 60% Scottish, 30% Irish, 10% English....

I've got plenty of "White boy" love. GTFO.

With all your BS spewing about stats and long paragraphs, you vote for melo? When he's clearly not the best statistical player on the board.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 12:16 AM
Dirk has never had 33pt, 18 reb, 5 blk games. Maybe 33 pts. Maybe 18 rebs. Maybe 5 blocks. Never in the same night.
When the hell did I say Dirk gets those #s? do u read properly? i said duncan doesn't put up those #'s like he used to...he's not a dominant force like he used to be. is he consistant? yea, but he's not a deadly threat like D12, Lebron, Kobe, etc...


All that has gone down for Duncan is his scoring ability. He still has the ability to take over a game with rebounding and shot-blocking. Dirk has never had the ability to do this....

does he? so where the hell was it last year?

Do you even watch basketball?

do u read properly?

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 12:16 AM
With all your BS spewing about stats and long paragraphs, you vote for melo? When he's clearly not the best statistical player on the board.

exactly:facepalm:

tredigs
09-24-2010, 12:27 AM
With all your BS spewing about stats and long paragraphs, you vote for melo? When he's clearly not the best statistical player on the board.

Click on one of the numbers on the poll... like me, looks like he voted for Duncan.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 12:31 AM
Click on one of the numbers on the poll... like me, looks like he voted for Duncan.

fail...i think he confused him with Wade>You

mynameismo
09-24-2010, 12:57 AM
Melo will probably walk out the winner here.
But I went with Gasol.

DoJoTheSlasher
09-24-2010, 01:19 AM
First of all, I didn't disrespect your post. I simply said we're speaking two completely different languages and can't even begin to communicate on the manner.

I then used an analogy where I used a contemporary feminist writer who writes in the field of Theopoetics which is one of the most advanced fields of the English language and compared her to an ancient English Christian Mystic who wrote one of the first pieces that we have in the English language.

Secondly, "not some tz + x - 67 / pie stats"??? It's called statistics. That's what statistics is. It is a field of mathematics aimed at using mathematical formulae and analysis to cut through the fat of regular statistical data. That's exactly why it's relevant, helpful, and meaningful.

Lastly, respect a white guy? Did you really just pull the race card?

First of all, I'm white. Second of all I've got Jerry West listed as my #4 SG of all time, Jason Kidd as my #3 PG of all time, and Larry Bird as my #2 SF of all time (when everything is said and done).

So... clearly I have nothing against white guys and pulling the race card just makes you sound foolish. I'm a 100% white boy who is 60% Scottish, 30% Irish, 10% English....

I've got plenty of "White boy" love. GTFO.

Save math for the classroom and talent for basketball. I don't care what his tzr is and stuff, that doesn't effect the next game he plays. It's how you play in the game, not your statistical uzr tzr background..........

Antipod
09-24-2010, 03:41 AM
Melo man

pebloemer
09-24-2010, 08:05 AM
Save math for the classroom and talent for basketball. I don't care what his tzr is and stuff, that doesn't effect the next game he plays. It's how you play in the game, not your statistical uzr tzr background..........

It is hardly complex mathematics, it is simply learning the meaning of stats that takes a little time. The purpose of the statistics is to create qualities to what you see on the court. They are used specifically to analyze "how you play the game."

There are certainly areas of context that can't be covered in statistical analysis. Which is my biggest gripe with use of statistics, but the advanced statistic methods for basketball are unbelievably thorough. Basketball is the one sport where almost every matter of the game can be taken into account through statistics.

If you don't care to learn about these stats, it is absolutely your right and choice, but then you probably shouldn't be so strong with your critiques of it. How can you critique something you don't fully understand?

Wade>You
09-24-2010, 08:12 AM
fail...i think he confused him with Wade>YouI voted for Melo. I think we still haven't seen the best of Melo, which is saying something.

Giannis94
09-24-2010, 08:50 AM
Brandon yung buck Jennings

Mile High Champ
09-24-2010, 09:25 AM
Looks like Melo has this wrapped up. Not a fan of him being 7 but I guess I can live with it.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Looks like Melo has this wrapped up. Not a fan of him being 7 but I guess I can live with it.

yea i don't think he deserves it either, but it's not something to ***** about

scutch11
09-24-2010, 12:08 PM
just as a reminder to anyone voting duncan.....he might still be a better all around player, but amar'e ABUSED him in the playoffs last year. its tough to put him in the top 10 after that

DoJoTheSlasher
09-24-2010, 12:31 PM
just as a reminder to anyone voting duncan.....he might still be a better all around player, but amar'e ABUSED him in the playoffs last year. its tough to put him in the top 10 after that

Dirk abused him too....

You can't use that as an example. Duncan is flat out better than Amare.

WadeKobe
09-24-2010, 02:11 PM
With all your BS spewing about stats and long paragraphs, you vote for melo? When he's clearly not the best statistical player on the board.

No. I voted for Duncan.

WadeKobe
09-24-2010, 02:26 PM
When the hell did I say Dirk gets those #s? do u read properly? i said duncan doesn't put up those #'s like he used to...he's not a dominant force like he used to be. is he consistant? yea, but he's not a deadly threat like D12, Lebron, Kobe, etc...


does he? so where the hell was it last year?


do u read properly?

Yes, I do read properly. I just also follow the logical trail of what you're saying. You said that because Duncan cannot put up 33/18/5 anymore, he can no longer take over games and therefore Dirk is better. But that can only follow logically if Dirk is somehow capable of putting up those sorts of numbers while Duncan isn't. Elsewise, it's a moot point.

So, yes; I can read properly. I also never said he was a deadly thread like LeBron or Kobe. Secondly, Dwight is not really a "deadly threat" offensively.

"Duncan doesn't put up the numbers he used to" doesn't matter in a conversation about Dirk vs. Duncan if Duncan's numbers are still better than Dirk's lol.

JordansBulls
09-24-2010, 03:36 PM
Surprised Melo beat out Deron, when Deron beat Melo w/o HCA last year and two starters out.

Sadds The Gr8
09-24-2010, 03:45 PM
Yes, I do read properly. I just also follow the logical trail of what you're saying. You said that because Duncan cannot put up 33/18/5 anymore, he can no longer take over games and therefore Dirk is better. But that can only follow logically if Dirk is somehow capable of putting up those sorts of numbers while Duncan isn't. Elsewise, it's a moot point.

Dirk IS capable of putting up numbers almost similar to that...

So, yes; I can read properly. I also never said he was a deadly thread like LeBron or Kobe. Secondly, Dwight is not really a "deadly threat" offensively.
did i say Dwight was a threat offensively?


"Duncan doesn't put up the numbers he used to" doesn't matter in a conversation about Dirk vs. Duncan if Duncan's numbers are still better than Dirk's lol.

u don't understand my point...i explained it at least 5 times and u fail to grasp it.

daleja424
09-24-2010, 03:46 PM
on to #8