PDA

View Full Version : Top 5 NBA achievments that need to givin back "Reggie Bush heisman style"



spreadeagle
09-17-2010, 12:26 AM
The hype surrounding Reggie Bush and his Heisman Trophy scandal has swamped the media. Five years after he was the face of college football, Bush has forfeited the sport’s defining trophy amidst the revelation of NCAA violations committed during his USC career. (Good thing O.J. Mayo didn’t win any Player of the Year awards during his one-year stop at USC, otherwise that would be another source of public embarrassment for the school that seems to ignore the fact that their athletes are amateurs.)

The Heisman scandal led us at the Dime office to wonder, which NBA players should follow Bush’s lead and give back awards and achievements from their past given today’s hindsight. These guys need to be put on blast:

Greg Oden’s No. 1 pick
If there’s anyone you can point a finger to and say he’s a bust (post-Kwame Brown), it has to be Oden. Before he got to the NBA his potential was through the roof. He looked as if he would be the NBA’s next dominant big man. Portland drafted him over Kevin Durant simply off of the old adage that big men are the foundation of championships. Now it’s clear to see that passing on Durant was a huge mistake.

Going into his fourth pro season, Oden’s career has been hampered by injuries. It seems as if he just can’t get (or stay) healthy. Sadly, when he is healthy he’s got enough talent to potentially develop into the player Portland expected him to become. Quite frankly, though, I don’t think you can build a championship team around an unreliable player like Oden. If the Blazers could do it all over again, they would revoke Oden of his No. 1 pick status.

Karl Malone’s 1997 MVP
This was one of the tightest MVP races of all time. Malone led the Jazz to the top of the Western Conference, but Michael Jordan had another year of dominance. The Bulls finished with a record of 69-13, the best in the league, while the Jazz finished with a record of 64-18. At the time conspiracy theorists said voters didn’t want to give Jordan another MVP simply because he already had four.

So was Malone really the right pick? Jordan averaged 30 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists that year, while Malone averaged 27 points, 10 rebounds and five assists. And I know MVP is a regular season award, but justice was served in the ‘97 Finals, when Jordan’s Bulls beat Malone’s Jazz for the championship and Jordan got another Finals MVP. If you ask me, The G.O.A.T. should have been awarded the regular-season trophy, too.

Mike Brown’s 2009 Coach of the Year
Let’s be honest: What did Mike Brown really have to do with Cleveland’s success? The Cavaliers’ 66-16 record that season was mainly a result of LeBron’s greatness.

Coach of the Year should be attributed to a coach that actually coaches, and Mike Brown didn’t meet the criteria. And when he was called upon to lead the team in the playoffs, in certain crucial circumstances, he always seemed to make the wrong strategic decisions. Dwight Howard dominated the Cavs, and they had no answer for Orlando’s scoring firepower and three-point onslaught, constantly having their weaknesses exposed even with LeBron on the floor. If Rick Adelman (2nd-place finisher in that year’s COY voting) had been in charge of the Cavs, they might have gone all the way.

Dwight Howard’s 2009 Defensive Player of the Year
Every NBA award is based on opinion, but DPOY is one of the most subjective. Everybody has different ideas of what makes someone a top defender. Is it just whoever has the most blocks or steals? How much does rebounding factor into defense? Are the 1-on-1 lockdown defenders in the game being overlooked for the award because they don’t put up impressive stats?

Also consider it has become a lot harder to play perimeter defense in the NBA due to recent rule changes, which makes the case for true defensive stalwarts like Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen even stronger because they’re playing with the deck stacked against them. It takes a lot more stamina, foot speed and smarts to be a good perimeter defender in the NBA than it does to guard the post. In the ’90s it was safe to say that the center position was the hardest to guard, with guys like Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning and others being the focal point of their respective teams. Today, the game has changed immensely, as wing players and two-guards have become the main superstars of the League.

Night in and night out, particularly in ‘08-09, LeBron was in charge of stopping the other team’s best scorer, whereas Dwight was told to stand in the paint, wait until someone drives to the basket, and block a shot. Let’s be honest, who was Dwight’s toughest matchup? A nearly 40-year-old Shaq? C’mon. LeBron faced the likes of Kobe, Wade, Roy, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay and Pierce each night. On top of shutting down the other team’s best scorer, LeBron made chase-down blocks a new specialty with a collection of highlight blocks. It seemed as if each time LeBron played, one of his blocks was on that night’s “Top Plays.” LeBron’s defensive presence played a huge role in Cleveland’s 66-16 record, and there’s no reason why he shouldn’t have won his first Defensive POY.

Steve Nash’s 2006 MVP
Don’t get me wrong, Nash had a great season on his way to his second straight MVP, but let’s just draw some comparisons here: Nash and the Suns finished with a record of 54-28, the third-best record in the League behind the Pistons and the Spurs. Even if the MVP award was to be given to the best player on the best team each year, Nash still wouldn’t be the No. 1 candidate, seeing as his team wasn’t the best.

The MVP is the NBA’s version of “Best Player,” and simply put, Kobe Bryant was the best player in the NBA that season. He finished with remarkable numbers, averaging 35 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists, as opposed to Nash’s 18 points and 11 dimes. Not to downplay Nash’s season, but he had nowhere near the resume that Bryant had. It got to the point where Kobe was being debated as the best scorer to ever play the game. He made it look as if he could really score whenever he wanted, like when he went on a four-game streak of scoring 50-plus points. Not to mention he dropped 62 points in three quarters’ worth of work in a game against Dallas, then dropped the famous 81 points in one game against Toronto. Kobe defined that season, and should have been MVP. Nash’s trophy should be revoked and re-issued to the Black Mamba.http://dimemag.com/2010/09/5-nba-achievements-that-need-to-be-forfeited/

poleandreel
09-17-2010, 12:56 AM
kobe's 5 championships.
they were all won bc of shaq and gasol and robert horry

abe_froman
09-17-2010, 12:57 AM
ai's mvp

ChiSox219
09-17-2010, 01:03 AM
Kobe's 2010 Final's MVP (Gasol)
Aaron Brooks' Most Improved (Durant)

Avenged
09-17-2010, 01:08 AM
Kobe's 81 game performance, what a ball hog.

Ovratd1up
09-17-2010, 01:12 AM
Allen Iverson given the nickname "The Answer," and then the media trying noticeably too hard to make a pun with it whenever he is in the news for any reason.

Duncan = Donkey
09-17-2010, 01:21 AM
Kobe was a chucker that year and his team only won 45 games. Dont think he shouldve won it.

_KB24_
09-17-2010, 01:29 AM
Lebrons ROY -Melo was just as deserving and led his team to the playoffs in the much more difficult Western Conference.

WadeKobe
09-17-2010, 01:30 AM
2002 MVP - Tim Duncan won the award and he certainly deserved it in a vacuum. He played well enough. He had arguably the best season of his career and the Spurs had the second-best record in basketball.

However, Jason Kidd deserved the MVP that year.

Neither team had the distinction of being "the best team in basketball" so the Spurs "better" record shouldn't matter. What SHOULD matter is the fact that the year before the Spurs had the same exact record while both years before, COMBINED, the Nets did not win as many games as they won with Kidd that year.

The "MVP" award is "Most Valuable Player to Your Team's Success."

Jason Kidd's 2001-2 season is the definition of an MVP season. He finished 2nd in voting.

Tragedy.

I would certainly add Kobe's Finals MVP this year to that list...

WadeKobe
09-17-2010, 01:47 AM
Removed: WRONG THREAD

B.JenningsMVP
09-17-2010, 02:55 AM
anything Kobe has accomplished cause he sucks...

:facepalm: smh

eff the haters!!

Econo35
09-17-2010, 03:19 AM
nowitzki's mvp

spreadeagle
09-17-2010, 05:26 AM
nowitzki's mvp

I would love to see Dirk play on a different team,hes become kinda stale in Dallas,so many good regular seasons but no rings

Knicks21
09-17-2010, 06:16 AM
Nowitzki's MVP
Team finished with the best record. Failed to lead his team in the playoffs. Resulted in a series loss against 8th seed Warriors. Nonetheless it is a regular season award, and he is a great player.

Bravo95
09-17-2010, 05:16 PM
Most of the NBA's individual awards have been a joke since they handed it to Malone.

Avenged
09-17-2010, 05:40 PM
anything Kobe has accomplished cause he sucks...

:facepalm: smh

eff the haters!!

:laugh2: seems like it just by looking at this thread.

Chacarron
09-17-2010, 05:49 PM
Kobe's 81 game performance, what a ball hog.

Don't forget the 3 straight 50-point games.

SteveNash
09-17-2010, 05:56 PM
Malone deserved the award a lot more than Nash or Barkley.

Oh and 2006 Miami Heat need to give back their rings.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-17-2010, 05:59 PM
The hype surrounding Reggie Bush and his Heisman Trophy scandal has swamped the media. Five years after he was the face of college football, Bush has forfeited the sport’s defining trophy amidst the revelation of NCAA violations committed during his USC career. (Good thing O.J. Mayo didn’t win any Player of the Year awards during his one-year stop at USC, otherwise that would be another source of public embarrassment for the school that seems to ignore the fact that their athletes are amateurs.)

The Heisman scandal led us at the Dime office to wonder, which NBA players should follow Bush’s lead and give back awards and achievements from their past given today’s hindsight. These guys need to be put on blast:

Greg Oden’s No. 1 pick
If there’s anyone you can point a finger to and say he’s a bust (post-Kwame Brown), it has to be Oden. Before he got to the NBA his potential was through the roof. He looked as if he would be the NBA’s next dominant big man. Portland drafted him over Kevin Durant simply off of the old adage that big men are the foundation of championships. Now it’s clear to see that passing on Durant was a huge mistake.

Going into his fourth pro season, Oden’s career has been hampered by injuries. It seems as if he just can’t get (or stay) healthy. Sadly, when he is healthy he’s got enough talent to potentially develop into the player Portland expected him to become. Quite frankly, though, I don’t think you can build a championship team around an unreliable player like Oden. If the Blazers could do it all over again, they would revoke Oden of his No. 1 pick status.

Karl Malone’s 1997 MVP
This was one of the tightest MVP races of all time. Malone led the Jazz to the top of the Western Conference, but Michael Jordan had another year of dominance. The Bulls finished with a record of 69-13, the best in the league, while the Jazz finished with a record of 64-18. At the time conspiracy theorists said voters didn’t want to give Jordan another MVP simply because he already had four.

So was Malone really the right pick? Jordan averaged 30 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists that year, while Malone averaged 27 points, 10 rebounds and five assists. And I know MVP is a regular season award, but justice was served in the ‘97 Finals, when Jordan’s Bulls beat Malone’s Jazz for the championship and Jordan got another Finals MVP. If you ask me, The G.O.A.T. should have been awarded the regular-season trophy, too.

Mike Brown’s 2009 Coach of the Year
Let’s be honest: What did Mike Brown really have to do with Cleveland’s success? The Cavaliers’ 66-16 record that season was mainly a result of LeBron’s greatness.

Coach of the Year should be attributed to a coach that actually coaches, and Mike Brown didn’t meet the criteria. And when he was called upon to lead the team in the playoffs, in certain crucial circumstances, he always seemed to make the wrong strategic decisions. Dwight Howard dominated the Cavs, and they had no answer for Orlando’s scoring firepower and three-point onslaught, constantly having their weaknesses exposed even with LeBron on the floor. If Rick Adelman (2nd-place finisher in that year’s COY voting) had been in charge of the Cavs, they might have gone all the way.

Dwight Howard’s 2009 Defensive Player of the Year
Every NBA award is based on opinion, but DPOY is one of the most subjective. Everybody has different ideas of what makes someone a top defender. Is it just whoever has the most blocks or steals? How much does rebounding factor into defense? Are the 1-on-1 lockdown defenders in the game being overlooked for the award because they don’t put up impressive stats?

Also consider it has become a lot harder to play perimeter defense in the NBA due to recent rule changes, which makes the case for true defensive stalwarts like Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen even stronger because they’re playing with the deck stacked against them. It takes a lot more stamina, foot speed and smarts to be a good perimeter defender in the NBA than it does to guard the post. In the ’90s it was safe to say that the center position was the hardest to guard, with guys like Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning and others being the focal point of their respective teams. Today, the game has changed immensely, as wing players and two-guards have become the main superstars of the League.

Night in and night out, particularly in ‘08-09, LeBron was in charge of stopping the other team’s best scorer, whereas Dwight was told to stand in the paint, wait until someone drives to the basket, and block a shot. Let’s be honest, who was Dwight’s toughest matchup? A nearly 40-year-old Shaq? C’mon. LeBron faced the likes of Kobe, Wade, Roy, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay and Pierce each night. On top of shutting down the other team’s best scorer, LeBron made chase-down blocks a new specialty with a collection of highlight blocks. It seemed as if each time LeBron played, one of his blocks was on that night’s “Top Plays.” LeBron’s defensive presence played a huge role in Cleveland’s 66-16 record, and there’s no reason why he shouldn’t have won his first Defensive POY.

Steve Nash’s 2006 MVP
Don’t get me wrong, Nash had a great season on his way to his second straight MVP, but let’s just draw some comparisons here: Nash and the Suns finished with a record of 54-28, the third-best record in the League behind the Pistons and the Spurs. Even if the MVP award was to be given to the best player on the best team each year, Nash still wouldn’t be the No. 1 candidate, seeing as his team wasn’t the best.

The MVP is the NBA’s version of “Best Player,” and simply put, Kobe Bryant was the best player in the NBA that season. He finished with remarkable numbers, averaging 35 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists, as opposed to Nash’s 18 points and 11 dimes. Not to downplay Nash’s season, but he had nowhere near the resume that Bryant had. It got to the point where Kobe was being debated as the best scorer to ever play the game. He made it look as if he could really score whenever he wanted, like when he went on a four-game streak of scoring 50-plus points. Not to mention he dropped 62 points in three quarters’ worth of work in a game against Dallas, then dropped the famous 81 points in one game against Toronto. Kobe defined that season, and should have been MVP. Nash’s trophy should be revoked and re-issued to the Black Mamba.http://dimemag.com/2010/09/5-nba-achievements-that-need-to-be-forfeited/

this. kobe bryant had a "jordan" type season. the first player since MJ to average over 35 ppg. it broke my heart for him to not have earned one of the 3 MVPs given to dirk and nash those 3 years. in my opinion 2 of those deserved to be his. but at least ONE! i just dont see how the most dominant player this decade has only one mvp award.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-17-2010, 06:01 PM
kobe hate thread?






u mad?


haters are gonna hate but the facts are the facts. dont be mad because kobe, night in and night out, is tearing your team apart and keeping them from any chance of winning an nba championship. a lot of you guys seem really bitter.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-17-2010, 06:05 PM
Kobe's 2010 Final's MVP (Gasol)
Aaron Brooks' Most Improved (Durant)

gasols stats in that series were empty.

anyone who watched the game saw how much he got owned in the paint and how easy, at times, it was for rondo and co. to penetrate the lane.

yea you could make a valid argument using stats to prove me wrong but gasol's stats were empty just as they were a lot all season.

kobe deserved that mvp because of the clutch passes, rebounds, and points he would make.

in game 5 in the 3rd quarter when his whole team gave up and didnt do anything kobe bryant tried to lead them back. where was pau? i dont think he deserved anything. kobe showed his resilience in that series by coming up big when we needed it.

19 3rd quarter points in game 5 playing 1 on 5 because no one on his team showed up.

check the in the paint scoring for boston on that game. that game was pivotal and everyone but kobe showed up.

RaJAxTWa
09-17-2010, 06:15 PM
y does every1 hate kobe seriously..i ****ing hate lebron ill go out nd say it..the guy tries to bagwagon his original team to go play wit team USA kobe deserves all the credit he gets cause hes not a front runner sure he has tlked bout it but honestly u think kobe was going to leave...y leave the best market city of the nba...ten of the next lebron rings equals one of kobes u heard that from the god himself in micheal jordan

topdog
09-17-2010, 06:22 PM
The only one I would say should be "given back" is the #1 COY. Number one pick obviously didn't pan out but you can't really take it back and he deserved it at the time (I felt Durant/Oden were equally deserving). COY is a fickle, poorly voted on award. Often it goes to the coaches of good teams rather than less talented teams with truly talented coaches.

You point out stats but Malone's are arguable better - he scored less but had one more assist (worth 2pts imo) and 4 more rebounds which more than makes up for the 3pts less he scored.

Tagging that onto Kobe for MVP, most years the "best player" of the year is one guy year-to-year and for awhile it was Kobe, but that is not what MVP is about. It's about who makes the most dramatic difference on a winning team (consistent great output loses its drama).

Nash deserved both his awards and maybe a 3rd because of what he did for the Suns and how no one really had remarkable seasons those years. Imagine the Suns without Nash... yeah, more like darkside of the moon.

Oh, and as for Lebron and DPOY There are plenty of perimeter defenders who are better than him AND poor perimeter defense leads to guys like Lebron and Rose getting right into the lane where guys like Dwight have to block their shots. So there may not be as many "great" centers but there still are some talented ones and there are far more backcourt players to deal with.

Chacarron
09-17-2010, 06:24 PM
The only one I would say should be "given back" is the #1 COY. Number one pick obviously didn't pan out but you can't really take it back and he deserved it at the time (I felt Durant/Oden were equally deserving). COY is a fickle, poorly voted on award. Often it goes to the coaches of good teams rather than less talented teams with truly talented coaches.

You point out stats but Malone's are arguable better - he scored less but had one more assist (worth 2pts imo) and 4 more rebounds which more than makes up for the 3pts less he scored.

Tagging that onto Kobe for MVP, most years the "best player" of the year is one guy year-to-year and for awhile it was Kobe, but that is not what MVP is about. It's about who makes the most dramatic difference on a winning team (consistent great output loses its drama).

Nash deserved both his awards and maybe a 3rd because of what he did for the Suns and how no one really had remarkable seasons those years. Imagine the Suns without Nash... yeah, more like darkside of the moon.

I don't know about that.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-17-2010, 06:27 PM
The only one I would say should be "given back" is the #1 COY. Number one pick obviously didn't pan out but you can't really take it back and he deserved it at the time (I felt Durant/Oden were equally deserving). COY is a fickle, poorly voted on award. Often it goes to the coaches of good teams rather than less talented teams with truly talented coaches.

You point out stats but Malone's are arguable better - he scored less but had one more assist (worth 2pts imo) and 4 more rebounds which more than makes up for the 3pts less he scored.

Tagging that onto Kobe for MVP, most years the "best player" of the year is one guy and for awhile it was Kobe, but that is not what MVP is about. It's about who makes the most dramatic (consistent great output loses its drama) difference on a winning team.

Nash deserved both his awards and maybe a 3rd because of what he did for the Suns and how no one really had remarkable seasons those years. Imagine the Suns without Nash... yeah, more like darkside of the moon.


mvp is the best player in the NBA hands down. whoever says otherwise is completely and utterly ignorant.

nash didnt deserve both of his awards because without him the suns still make the playoffs.

without kobe the lakers fall to a lottery pick possibly #1 pick in the draft.

along with the fact kobe posted #s that the nba hadnt seen in 10 years. so NO! nash's mediocre stats did not deserve the nod over kobe bryant.

this is when they tried to implement the case that mvp is someone who makes his team better. well there was no way in heLLLL kobe was going to make smush parker, luke walton, brian cook, devean george, KWAME BROWN etc. BETTER. its just not happening. he did what he had to do to get them to the playoffs.

not to mention he took the best team in the nba to a 7 game series. :rolleyes: pleaseee.

masTOR_shake1
09-17-2010, 06:42 PM
i don't agree with any of these

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-17-2010, 07:18 PM
LeBron shouldn't have won ROY

_KB24_
09-17-2010, 10:41 PM
Don't forget the 3 straight 50-point games.

The SOB had 4 straight. How the hell is he still in this league!? :mad:

:rolleyes:

The Smurf
09-17-2010, 11:08 PM
The validity of this thread is questionable due to Greg Oden's draft pick being included. Being picked is only a financial achievment. It is, quite simply, a choice. You would have to put Sam Bowie being picked ahead of MJ as another one, along with other draft mistakes. The rest of the thread is decent, but op really only focuses on the past 10 years of the NBA. Adding draft busts is so different from the rest of this list and OP didnt even understand the concept that he, himself, conceived.

Slimsim
09-17-2010, 11:22 PM
Does contracts count as well ?

kobe_23chembace
09-17-2010, 11:36 PM
kobe 5 rings,
2 back to back finals mvp,
1 mvp, all star mvp..
scoring title..
1st nba team
1st defensive team
81 points in 1 game.
61 points in 3 Q.
IS a bust, he won because of shaq and gasol, what a ballhog..he shouldn't deserve this..kobe sucks...

Rafer17
09-17-2010, 11:44 PM
Good post, I think DHoward was pretty deserving of the DPOY though...

Chest Rockwell
09-17-2010, 11:48 PM
2002 MVP - Tim Duncan won the award and he certainly deserved it in a vacuum. He played well enough. He had arguably the best season of his career and the Spurs had the second-best record in basketball.

However, Jason Kidd deserved the MVP that year.

Neither team had the distinction of being "the best team in basketball" so the Spurs "better" record shouldn't matter. What SHOULD matter is the fact that the year before the Spurs had the same exact record while both years before, COMBINED, the Nets did not win as many games as they won with Kidd that year.

The "MVP" award is "Most Valuable Player to Your Team's Success."

Jason Kidd's 2001-2 season is the definition of an MVP season. He finished 2nd in voting.

Tragedy.

I would certainly add Kobe's Finals MVP this year to that list...

Yep, I was going to post this as well. Politics is the only reason he didn't win. The stuff with his wife was big at the time.

thescore53
09-18-2010, 12:04 AM
kobe hate thread?






u mad?


haters are gonna hate but the facts are the facts. dont be mad because kobe, night in and night out, is tearing your team apart and keeping them from any chance of winning an nba championship. a lot of you guys seem really bitter.

try being sarcastic. when they hate just be like... i know right kobe sucks. theres no good comeback. the best defense against a troll is agreeing with them.

Chacarron
09-18-2010, 12:18 AM
The SOB had 4 straight. How the hell is he still in this league!? :mad:

:rolleyes:

Outrageous! Such a ballhog. He could have given Smush and Kwame more touches but no, the man took it upon himself. :D

thescore53
09-18-2010, 12:26 AM
Outrageous! Such a ballhog. He could have given Smush and Kwame more touches but no, the man took it upon himself. :D

yea kobe single handily ruined smush's career. he never gave the kid a shot. he could have been a star. but instead he crushed his spirit. what a jerk !!!

justinnum1
09-21-2010, 12:11 AM
Lebrons 08-09 MVP...Should have gone to Wade.

TylerSL
09-26-2010, 10:04 PM
Lebrons 08-09 MVP...Should have gone to Wade.

this, Wade put up identical stats with a much worse team. That year they woulda won like 10 games without Wade.

sp1derm00
09-30-2010, 11:48 AM
@all the Heat fans/Kobe haters...

How about revoking D-Whistle's ring? Without the 3 extra players on the court and the phantom fouls...

WadeKobe
09-30-2010, 01:16 PM
@all the Heat fans/Kobe haters...

How about revoking D-Whistle's ring? Without the 3 extra players on the court and the phantom fouls...

I'm really getting sick of this argument. What calls did Wade get that every other superstar doesn't also get? This is getting ridiculous.

Khalifa21
09-30-2010, 01:20 PM
Kobe's 2010 finals MVP
Nowitzki's 2007 MVP

Khalifa21
09-30-2010, 01:26 PM
Lebrons 08-09 MVP...Should have gone to Wade.

No


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 LeBron James 2008-09 24 81 3054 31.7 .591 .530 4.3 19.0 11.9 38.0 2.4 2.4 11.0 33.8 122 99 13.7 6.5 20.3 0.318
2 Dwyane Wade 2008-09 27 79 3048 30.4 .574 .516 3.5 12.2 7.8 40.3 3.0 2.8 11.6 36.2 115 105 10.3 4.4 14.7 0.232


LeBron is superior in pretty much every advanced stat category. The fact that the Cavs won 66 games and the Heat won 43 makes this a unanimous decision of LeBron over Wade.