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poleandreel
09-16-2010, 12:56 PM
saw the vince carter one so i was thinking the same about tmac.

How will you remember tmac?

13 points in 33 seconds
62 point performance against the wizards
51 against carmelo his rookie year
arguably the best wing player of this generation in his prime

5th all time in career playoff ppg (check his rebounding and assists. they are great as well)

or the stupid popular one that everyone regurgitates from ESPN:

couldn't make it out if the first round

or

injuries

Hawkeye15
09-16-2010, 12:59 PM
injuries robbed us of an all time great possibly. He was dominant in the early part of the decade. Best wing player for 2-3 years overall.

Hawkeye15
09-16-2010, 12:59 PM
Chronz, have fun

sixers247
09-16-2010, 01:00 PM
Unreal player for a few years who got killed with injuries. I actually really liked him.

poleandreel
09-16-2010, 01:02 PM
Unreal player for a few years who got killed with injuries. I actually really liked him.

me too...my favorite player ever. still is. :(

JordansBulls
09-16-2010, 01:18 PM
saw the vince carter one so i was thinking the same about tmac.

How will you remember tmac?

13 points in 33 seconds
62 point performance against the wizards
51 against carmelo his rookie year
arguably the best wing player of this generation in his prime

5th all time in career playoff ppg (check his rebounding and assists. they are great as well)

or the stupid popular one that everyone regurgitates from ESPN:

couldn't make it out if the first round

or

injuries

A player who never in his playoff history had a 1-4 seed. He was always the 5-8 seed. However even though he was the 5 seed twice, he did have HCA those two series.

poleandreel
09-16-2010, 01:21 PM
2008 game 6. jazz up 3-2. watch this video and tell me if they get eliminated bc of tracy and if there was anything else he could have done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkdCD-XvaQ&feature=related

game 7 2007 against the jazz. boozer gets 38. mcgrady has 29. yao cant rebound and they lose. is that his fault?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NEAvvARppc&feature=fvw

JordansBulls
09-16-2010, 01:31 PM
2008 game 6. jazz up 3-2. watch this video and tell me if they get eliminated bc of tracy and if there was anything else he could have done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHkdCD-XvaQ&feature=related

game 7 2007 against the jazz. boozer gets 38. mcgrady has 29. yao cant rebound and they lose. is that his fault?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NEAvvARppc&feature=fvw

2008 Game 6 isn't his fault, but going down 2-0 with HCA in that series is especially considering in game 1 he didn't even score in the 4th quarter when the Rockets were leading for a good part of the 3rd quarter.

2007 Game 7 sort of is his fault. Rockets were up 88-83 Mcgrady at the foul line, and it seemed like every play Mcgrady took jump shots instead of driving when the Jazz were in the penalty. I have the game so I know, and you here Steve Kerr saying Mcgrady is taking that step back jump shot instead of driving.

thescore53
09-16-2010, 01:34 PM
if he stayed in Toronto him and Vince could have brought a title to Toronto. now they're both considered career losers. they were both actually fuming about couple months ago.

sixers247
09-16-2010, 01:35 PM
^ thats a negative.

sox_fan_35_2000
09-16-2010, 01:35 PM
I never thought about that toronto thing. Something to chew on.

GodsSon
09-16-2010, 01:35 PM
He will be known as a career loser who couldn't get past the 1st round and only accomplished individual achievements.

sep11ie
09-16-2010, 01:35 PM
Dear Tracy McGrady,

I miss you sooo much!

Much Love,

The rim

thescore53
09-16-2010, 01:42 PM
and he left after promising everyone that he would strongly consider staying, then he left cause he wanted his own team. :facepalm: if you think if these guys never left Toronto could have been a beat of a team.

camby
davis
vince
tmac
stoudemire

thekmp211
09-16-2010, 01:45 PM
injuries and bad teams. it can't be understated how horrendous his orlando teams were. they make lebron's supporting cast in cleveland look like the 60's celtics. the fact that he even got them to the playoffs is quite remarkable.

my favorite memory of tmac was the season that he and kobe went for 40 in like 15 straight games each. it was incredible the way those two competed with eachother even without playing. as has been said, tmac was better than kobe for 2-3 years and this was in kobe's prime as well. a shame that he never got to use those talents in a meaningful game. still, he shouldn't get lumped in with vince. different circumstance alltogether.

Niro
09-16-2010, 01:50 PM
he was a boss for some years but injuries killed his career

poleandreel
09-16-2010, 01:53 PM
lol at the 2002 orlando magic roster

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

went to 7 games in the playoffs before being eliminated. that ****** team would be a lottery team today

JordansBulls
09-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Regarding that 2007 series in game 7

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=270505010&period=4


6:09 83-88 Tracy McGrady makes 9-foot running jumper
6:09 Matt Harpring shooting foul (Tracy McGrady draws the foul) 83-88
6:09 83-88 Tracy McGrady misses free throw 1 of 1
6:07 83-88 Shane Battier offensive rebound
5:52 83-88 Rafer Alston lost ball (Deron Williams steals)
5:45 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Deron Williams assists) 85-88
5:24 85-88 Juwan Howard misses 16-foot jumper
5:22 Mehmet Okur defensive rebound 85-88
5:07 Andrei Kirilenko makes 25-foot three point jumper (Deron Williams assists) 88-88
4:58 Houston full timeout


4:46 88-88 Tracy McGrady misses 25-foot three point jumper
4:43 88-88 Juwan Howard offensive rebound
4:28 88-88 Tracy McGrady misses 17-foot two point shot
4:26 Deron Williams defensive rebound 88-88
4:15 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Mehmet Okur assists) 90-88
4:15 90-88 Chuck Hayes shooting foul (Carlos Boozer draws the foul)
4:15 90-88 Yao Ming enters the game for Juwan Howard
4:15 Carlos Boozer makes free throw 1 of 1 91-88


@ the 7:35 mark of the 4th the Jazz are in the penalty. Why when the game is tied with less than 5 minutes left are you taking 3's and long 2's?

Chronz
09-16-2010, 02:19 PM
Regarding that 2007 series in game 7

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=270505010&period=4


6:09 83-88 Tracy McGrady makes 9-foot running jumper
6:09 Matt Harpring shooting foul (Tracy McGrady draws the foul) 83-88
6:09 83-88 Tracy McGrady misses free throw 1 of 1
6:07 83-88 Shane Battier offensive rebound
5:52 83-88 Rafer Alston lost ball (Deron Williams steals)
5:45 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Deron Williams assists) 85-88
5:24 85-88 Juwan Howard misses 16-foot jumper
5:22 Mehmet Okur defensive rebound 85-88
5:07 Andrei Kirilenko makes 25-foot three point jumper (Deron Williams assists) 88-88
4:58 Houston full timeout


4:46 88-88 Tracy McGrady misses 25-foot three point jumper
4:43 88-88 Juwan Howard offensive rebound
4:28 88-88 Tracy McGrady misses 17-foot two point shot
4:26 Deron Williams defensive rebound 88-88
4:15 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Mehmet Okur assists) 90-88
4:15 90-88 Chuck Hayes shooting foul (Carlos Boozer draws the foul)
4:15 90-88 Yao Ming enters the game for Juwan Howard
4:15 Carlos Boozer makes free throw 1 of 1 91-88


@ the 7:35 mark of the 4th the Jazz are in the penalty. Why when the game is tied with less than 5 minutes left are you taking 3's and long 2's?

Show the sequence where Yao misses every rebound in his area that 4th quarter (After Boozer completely eviscerates him) preventing the Rockets from having enough possessions to respond. Point being there are several factors that go into winning and losing, what matters is the totality of your contributions. Tmac wasnt at fault for losing ANY series, did he have faults, no **** everyone who loses a series plays bad at some point. And dont bring up your HCA theory in here please, its been proven useless time and time again. Atleast when compared to modern methods.

PS Nothing wrong with taking jumpers, its not as if its possible to drive to the rack every time, especially at that point in Tmac's career. He should have drove more, but thats not why they lost. They lost because while the 2 teams were similar in talent, one was a 2-man squad against a team that had proven to beat quality teams without having to have any 1 player dominate.

Chronz
09-16-2010, 02:24 PM
lol at the 2002 orlando magic roster

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

went to 7 games in the playoffs before being eliminated. that ****** team would be a lottery team today
If not for the NBA going to a 7 game format or Rick Carlise eventual realization that Tayshaun could prevent Tmac from simply rising over the top of your team, Tmac would have been to the 2nd round in one of the greatest upsets of the 1st round.

Chronz
09-16-2010, 02:25 PM
saw the vince carter one so i was thinking the same about tmac.

How will you remember tmac?

13 points in 33 seconds
62 point performance against the wizards
51 against carmelo his rookie year
arguably the best wing player of this generation in his prime

5th all time in career playoff ppg (check his rebounding and assists. they are great as well)

or the stupid popular one that everyone regurgitates from ESPN:

couldn't make it out if the first round

or

injuries
Best Wing for a 3-4 year span, TOP 3 OVERALL for 2 seasons

poleandreel
09-16-2010, 02:27 PM
I will literally not remember him for any of that.

then how will you remember him?

Chronz
09-16-2010, 02:30 PM
and he left after promising everyone that he would strongly consider staying, then he left cause he wanted his own team. :facepalm: if you think if these guys never left Toronto could have been a beat of a team.

camby
davis
vince
tmac
stoudemire

How did he want his own team when he decided to join up with Grant Hill?

Gators123
09-16-2010, 02:33 PM
Everybody will remember him for his amazing comeback on the Pistons :hide:

Chronz
09-16-2010, 02:41 PM
then how will you remember him?
(Updated post)
More specifically though, I would remember him for the series vs Dallas. People dont understand the competitive disadvantage Tmac was in, to take on a team that talented and deep, when your already inferior squad is depleted by injury that you have to start a D-Leaguer to guard the opposing teams best player, that series had no business going 5 much less 7.

Raoul Duke
09-16-2010, 02:46 PM
Everybody will remember him for his amazing comeback on the Pistons :hide:

Man, I certainly hope so. I'm not holding my breath, but I don't hate the guy enough to actually want for him to continue his decline.

I'll remember T-Mac as a guy who had an amazing four year run as one of the best players in the league, but also as a guy whose teams never enjoyed any significant success while he was playing well. Unfortunately, every conversation about him turns into a "woulda coulda" type deal where we ask ourselves and eachother endless questions. "What if T-Mac had played on better teams?", or "What if T-Mac hadn't been hobbled by injuries?". It's kinda pointless. What if Kwame Brown had great hands?

thescore53
09-16-2010, 03:16 PM
How did he want his own team when he decided to join up with Grant Hill?

those words came out of his mouth. he also felt he wasnt getting enough mins.

arlubas
09-16-2010, 03:18 PM
Haters gonna hate but the truth is T-Mac was one HELL of a player in his hey day and those Orlando teams were as terrible as they come. The 1st round virgin mark will always haunt him but we all know (at least the thoughtful ones) that for a team to go on to the second round it takes more than the efforts of one single player no matter who that player is. So yeah, keep on dissing him but this guy played some of the most amazing basketball that came around in the past decade.

JordansBulls
09-16-2010, 03:19 PM
Show the sequence where Yao misses every rebound in his area that 4th quarter (After Boozer completely eviscerates him) preventing the Rockets from having enough possessions to respond. Point being there are several factors that go into winning and losing, what matters is the totality of your contributions. Tmac wasnt at fault for losing ANY series, did he have faults, no **** everyone who loses a series plays bad at some point. And dont bring up your HCA theory in here please, its been proven useless time and time again. Atleast when compared to modern methods.

PS Nothing wrong with taking jumpers, its not as if its possible to drive to the rack every time, especially at that point in Tmac's career. He should have drove more, but thats not why they lost. They lost because while the 2 teams were similar in talent, one was a 2-man squad against a team that had proven to beat quality teams without having to have any 1 player dominate.

You are acting like Tmac was 35 or something. The guy was 28 years old. And really it was easy to drive to rim against the Jazz because they had no shot blocking. You are acting like the Jazz had Deke or Mourning down there at Center.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-16-2010, 03:30 PM
sadly, i will remember t-mac for his amazing play but the things that stick out the most are the latter part of his career where he failed to get it done and where he got injured. when i think of t-mac i dont think of great. i think of a ton of wasted talent. thats just my opinion though.

Rivera
09-16-2010, 03:32 PM
tmac - my fav player when he was playin

never made it past the 1st round

great talent....got scared to take the basketball to the whole toward the end of his magic tenure

injuries hurt him





hey #random thought....tmac and vince were cousins.....they both were not clutch in the playoffs....no mental toughness......coincidence??? i think not lol

Chronz
09-16-2010, 04:35 PM
those words came out of his mouth. he also felt he wasnt getting enough mins.
Not even close to being true, before the season was even over the Raps approached Tmac to discuss his role next year, it was expanding already with every game and made room for him in depth chart. I think your taking his words out of context or are simply not up to date on what hes clarified.

Chronz
09-16-2010, 04:37 PM
You are acting like Tmac was 35 or something. The guy was 28 years old. And really it was easy to drive to rim against the Jazz because they had no shot blocking. You are acting like the Jazz had Deke or Mourning down there at Center.
No Im acting like someone who knows the phase of a players career. If Tmac was 35 he wouldnt be your normal 35 year old so whats with the extreme comparison?

And you dont need good shot blocking to close off the lane against a single player when you know his teammates are capable of going scoreless regardless of how open you leave them.

michelangelo
09-16-2010, 04:40 PM
saw the vince carter one so i was thinking the same about tmac.

How will you remember tmac?

13 points in 33 seconds
62 point performance against the wizards
51 against carmelo his rookie year
arguably the best wing player of this generation in his prime

5th all time in career playoff ppg (check his rebounding and assists. they are great as well)

or the stupid popular one that everyone regurgitates from ESPN:

couldn't make it out if the first round

or

injuries

All of the above.

He's a lot like VC: extraordinary athlete without the accompanying will to win. I'd have to say VC was a much better finisher as well.

He reminds me of what a prime Scottie Pippen would have looked like if he played without Jordan and shot the ball all the time instead of looking to pass first.

In other words, he had the physical ability of a lead player, but the mentality of a complimentary player.

SteveNash
09-16-2010, 06:07 PM
Up 3-1 and blowing it.

JordansBulls
09-16-2010, 11:03 PM
Up 3-1, 2-0, and 2-0 and lost each time.

lowdown32
09-16-2010, 11:17 PM
:facepalm:
if he stayed in Toronto him and Vince could have brought a title to Toronto. now they're both considered career losers. they were both actually fuming about couple months ago.

albertc86
09-16-2010, 11:33 PM
McGrady falls under the same category as Carter --- a player who never realized his potential. In his defense, unlike Carter who gave up on his teams, McGrady's career was derailed by injury. However, McGrady not getting out of the first round in his Orlando days, does mar his résumé. The reason being is --- the eastern conference was very weak during that period and all of the top teams were one-man wrecking crews (Carter, Iverson, etc). So him not being able to propel his team to the second round given that truth, does reflect badly on him as a leader and a finisher. It's one thing for a great not to win a title but not being able to get out of the first round? Unacceptable. He provided us with legendary performances, but unfortunately, he will be forgotten.

thescore53
09-17-2010, 08:57 AM
:facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

why the **** not.

FOBolous
09-17-2010, 12:39 PM
what legacy? he has a legacy? more than likely...he'll be forgotten 10 to 15 years from now.

FOBolous
09-17-2010, 12:41 PM
Up 3-1, 2-0, and 2-0 and lost each time.

:clap:

Chronz
09-17-2010, 01:07 PM
what legacy? He has a legacy? More than likely...he'll be forgotten 10 to 15 years from now.
lol

Says the man who has never defended any of his opinions like ever

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 01:30 PM
How can it be said he has a "legacy"? What has he done? It's a team game, and his teams have done nothing. You cant give the "who did he have around him?" argument either. He had teams that should have at least been in the WCF. He seemed to take games off if he was upset, all too often injured, didn't play when he could, wanted to play when he couldn't, *****ed his way out of Toronto, Orlando, and Houston, etc.

Gators123
09-17-2010, 01:32 PM
I will always remember this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oleKfixy-7A

Classic.

Chronz
09-17-2010, 01:43 PM
How can it be said he has a "legacy"?
Read the definition of the word legacy. Every player has one, it can be a legacy of shame or greatness.


What has he done? It's a team game and his teams have done nothing.
LMFAO I dont think Ive ever seen someone contradict themselves in the same paragraph much less the very next sentence. You ask what hes done yet admit that his ultimate success is tied to his teammates. What hes done is attain a level of play very few have ever reached. His teams have overachieved beyond their talent level, which is all one could ask from an individual. Unless you think a player can control when his teammates make their shots.



You cant give the "who did he have around him?" argument either
Based on....?


He had teams that should have at least been in the WCF.
Based on....?


He seemed to take games off if he was upset, all too often injured, didn't play when he could, wanted to play when he couldn't, *****ed his way out of Toronto, Orlando, and Houston, etc.
Hes also played hurt when its mattered most, tried to return from injury too early, carried lesser talents far beyond their expected worth. And his divorces are usually misunderstood. Knowing your history, Im sure you fall under that category as well.

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 03:10 PM
Read the definition of the word legacy. Every player has one, it can be a legacy of shame or greatness.

My point is he doesn't have a legacy worth discussing. Why don't we discuss Sprewell's legacy, they are about the same.


LMFAO I dont think Ive ever seen someone contradict themselves in the same paragraph much less the very next sentence. You ask what hes done yet admit that his ultimate success is tied to his teammates. What hes done is attain a level of play very few have ever reached. His teams have overachieved beyond their talent level, which is all one could ask from an individual. Unless you think a player can control when his teammates make their shots.

The Tracy supporters always say, "of course he never made it past the first, look who all he's played with". He's had talent around him, but does not make his teammates better. I dislike him, but at least LBJ was able to turn a subpar team into an Eastern Conference Champion by making his teammates play better.



Based on....?

He was supposed to be THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. A PG of his was in the finals, a team he was on almost upset the Lakers while making it to the 2nd round without him...

Based on....?

Once again, he was supposed to be the best, he has never gelled with others. He's not a good teammate.


Hes also played hurt when its mattered most, tried to return from injury too early, carried lesser talents far beyond their expected worth. And his divorces are usually misunderstood. Knowing your history, Im sure you fall under that category as well.


Yea he tried to return from injury early, his contract was up...
Usually misunderstood? How are you gonna back up that statement Chronz? Him throwing organizations under the buss is a misunderstanding? I'm sure you believe your girlfriend/boyfriend everytime they tell you they'll never cheat again too...

My history? What do you know about my history...

Chronz
09-17-2010, 03:18 PM
Yea he tried to return from injury early, his contract was up...
Yes because there has only been 1 such instance of Tmac coming back from injury early right. Even then your wrong, his contract ran dry this year and he came back from injury LAST year. This year he wanted to get his rehab going to see where he was at, Rockets couldnt do that for him and he handled the divorce as honorably as any superstar ever has.


Usually misunderstood? How are you gonna back up that statement Chronz?
With facts about what the organization did to illicit a response from Tmac. Generally just things that make it obvious that its not all on Tmac.


Him throwing organizations under the buss is a misunderstanding?
Usually yea


I'm sure you believe your girlfriend/boyfriend everytime they tell you they'll never cheat again too...
Yea but only to buy me the time needed to extract my ultimate revenge.


My history? What do you know about my history...
About 2 years worth of posting in the Rox forum.

EDIT I just realized you did answer my Q's Ill get back to you

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 03:33 PM
Yes because there has only been 1 such instance of Tmac coming back from injury early right. Even then your wrong, his contract ran dry this year and he came back from injury LAST year. This year he wanted to get his rehab going to see where he was at, Rockets couldnt do that for him and he handled the divorce as honorably as any superstar ever has.

Talking through the media before any kinda clearence from your team is honorable? I guess we have different definitions of honor. Didn't he declare himself hurt also when the rumors came out he was about to be traded too?

With facts about what the organization did to illicit a response from Tmac. Generally just things that make it obvious that its not all on Tmac.

All 3 times??? At least he left NY on a positive note...


Usually yea


Yea but only to buy me the time needed to extract my ultimate revenge.

I bet being stuck with you is punishment enough.


About 2 years worth of posting in the Rox forum.

I back up my posts. I've agreed with you and disagreed with you in the past. I'm a Rockets fan, you are a T-Mac fan. We're bound to clash.

EDIT I just realized you did answer my Q's Ill get back to you

Got ya...

Chronz
09-17-2010, 03:33 PM
Just copy and quote bro, I dont want to do this every time.


My point is he doesn't have a legacy worth discussing. Why don't we discuss Sprewell's legacy, they are about the same.
Your point is futile, whats worth discussing isnt up to you. Given Tmac's popularity and status over the years, discussing the worth of someone who was at one point a top3 player in the game (Arguably its best) is a very understandable thread. That you think Spreewell (a man who wasnt even a perennial all-star and doesnt come close to Tracy's tangible worth) is a good comp, exposes you for the hater you are.

Obviously someone who hates Tmac is going to think poorly of a thread devoted to his legacy, sadly if your going to make retorts like this, you wont be convincing anyone who isnt already biased to that line of thinking.


The Tracy supporters always say, "of course he never made it past the first, look who all he's played with". He's had talent around him, but does not make his teammates better. I dislike him, but at least LBJ was able to turn a subpar team into an Eastern Conference Champion by making his teammates play better.
Except that he hasnt had the talent aroudn him and has a history of making teammates better. (Ask your teams own GM if Tmac ever made his teammates better).

LBJ is a better talent but I dont agree with your opinion. If you wish to delve into the matter go for it.


He was supposed to be THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME.
So?


A PG of his was in the finals
LOL this is your analysis? OK That same PG was replaced by a PG who didnt even start for a lottery team, yet that team that exchanged the Finalist caliber PG improved with the addition of that backup from a lottery team. That same finalist PG wasnt seen worth keeping and was replaced by a guy who had retired the year before. WOW its fun anaylzing without any actual analysis.


, a team he was on almost upset the Lakers while making it to the 2nd round without him...

That team upgraded its talent base and faced off against a lesser team.

That team had a 1-2 record without Yao against the Lakers and 2-2 without. Does that mean they had a better shot at beating them without him? NOPE, not if you know how to gauge ones impact.

Once again, he was supposed to be the best, he has never gelled with others. He's not a good teammate.
No I know what you think, I want to know what your basing it on. What teams of his were suppose to make the CF.

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 03:34 PM
Just noticed my computer is posting everything messed up. My answers are in my quoted post.

LTBaByyy
09-17-2010, 03:40 PM
This is exactly why we should wait a few years to see if kevin durant will be an all time great

Chronz
09-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Talking through the media before any kinda clearence from your team is honorable?

I said THIS YEAR besides since when do you need clearance to talk to the media?


Didn't he declare himself hurt also when the rumors came out he was about to be traded too?
He was hurt from day 1, he was cleared to play before reaching an acceptable strength threshold with regard to knee cartilage/scar tissue, based on the assumption that most injuries of this nature can heal itself even if you play through it (I remember Kobe going through the same process and waiting it out). Some players choose to wait until their knee can hold up without pain or without being drained, others choose to play through it. In this situation neither would have done any good as MF was required. The trade rumors were just another conspiracy to make Tmac out to look like a villain. Facts are, the VC trade was never being considered by Morey based on the accounts that A) It doesnt fit the MoneyBall scheme, B)Handicaps the usefullness of Tmac's contract (it was insured and soon to be expiring), C) Tmac's health is of no consequence to a team trying to unload Vince, in fact, the fact that Tmac would possibly be out is a positive reason to trade for him, and D) there were inner reports from both sides of it being BS. The only logical conclusion you end up with is that the trade talks had no barring on Tmac's decision.

You dont go under the knife and risk your career on the off chance you might be traded, the fact that he forced a trade in a few months himself should have put this to rest for good. Plz dont bring it up anymore.


All 3 times??? At least he left NY on a positive note...
What do you mean 3 times? What happened in Toronto that was so bad? And yes Orlando was that bad. They hired a hockey guy to run the team who would quit that same year. So yes, Im going to side with the guy who carried scrubs for 4 years, over the guy who insulted him and left before the embarrassment of failure hit him. Top 3 worst GM's ever


I've agreed with you and disagreed with you in the past. I'm a Rockets fan, you are a T-Mac fan. We're bound to clash.
Im a Tmac fan because Im a fan of the NBA first and foremost so yes, we will clash.

thescore53
09-17-2010, 03:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKfqfN2k7U&NR=1

Chronz
09-17-2010, 03:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKfqfN2k7U&NR=1
I dont remember that interview for some reason. I couldnt have missed it what the hell. TOTAL OWNAGE

tmacsc2
09-17-2010, 04:11 PM
and he left after promising everyone that he would strongly consider staying, then he left cause he wanted his own team. :facepalm: if you think if these guys never left Toronto could have been a beat of a team.

camby
davis
vince
tmac
stoudemire

he left cause his coach in toronto told him he would never amount to anything in the nba let alone a starter in the nba.....you dont know anything about t-mac and he wouldnt have won a title in toronto. they will never win! hajk

thescore53
09-17-2010, 04:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13gVMuGhK3g&feature=related

wat could have been :drool:

thescore53
09-17-2010, 04:20 PM
he left cause his coach in toronto told him he would never amount to anything in the nba let alone a starter in the nba.....you dont know anything about t-mac and he wouldnt have won a title in toronto. they will never win! hajk

first wat the **** does that mean ????

second vince lead a mediocre team to a shot away from the east conf finals. had we had tmac we could have won. and since philly beat the buck in the conf finals. i think we could had did the same. especially how the league caters to superstars. and to the finals vs the lakers. anything could had happened

but i feel you on the first part.

Chronz
09-17-2010, 04:22 PM
What could have been even better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KNhB1covvE

millerandco
09-17-2010, 04:32 PM
13 points in 33 seconds...amazing

WeAreClutch
09-17-2010, 04:40 PM
tracy was like a father to me

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 05:09 PM
I dont remember that interview for some reason. I couldnt have missed it what the hell. TOTAL OWNAGE

The only ownage there was from from mark Jackson.

Chronz
09-17-2010, 05:21 PM
The only ownage there was from from mark Jackson.
Who would you agree with, Mr. Walking Cliche or Mr. Jeff Van ****ING Gundy?

Hustlenomics
09-17-2010, 05:29 PM
Up 3-1, 2-0, and 2-0 and lost each time.

^

sep11ie
09-17-2010, 05:47 PM
Who would you agree with, Mr. Walking Cliche or Mr. Jeff Van ****ING Gundy?

Well, you may be right. Mark Jackson was probably the only dude in sports history to get traded for a guy named Pooh...

Gators123
09-17-2010, 09:16 PM
Edit.

topdog
09-17-2010, 09:32 PM
I will remember him as the sickly one-man team who died in Orlando as Tyronne Lue watched. Though his 13pts in 3mins I will remember forever.

Russollini
09-17-2010, 09:39 PM
One of the greatest players for 1-3 years that in no way is a HOFer and will only be remembered for forcing Vince out, Never taking a team to the finals, fizzling out before he should have and his injuries. in the future, people will say who was that guy who dropped 62 on the Wiz? Bron, Kobe, Wade, Vince, AI, et al I can not remember

ink
09-18-2010, 02:35 AM
One of the greatest players for 1-3 years that in no way is a HOFer and will only be remembered for forcing Vince out, Never taking a team to the finals, fizzling out before he should have and his injuries. in the future, people will say who was that guy who dropped 62 on the Wiz? Bron, Kobe, Wade, Vince, AI, et al I can not remember

Pretty much. A player not worth all the attention, positive or negative.

And when I see the word "legacy" I wonder whether it is just a cliche or do people really think about what it means.

A "legacy" is something that is "handed down from an ancestor or a predecessor or from the past". What could TMac or any other almost great player have ever handed down???

Very few players actually have a "legacy". Guys who have a few big stat seasons do not have "legacies".

Seriously, how many NBA players actually have legacies?? How many people actually hand something down to the next generation? The word is ridiculously misused to the point where it's actually meaningless.

Chronz
09-18-2010, 02:51 PM
Pretty much. A player not worth all the attention, positive or negative.
Depends on what you value, if you appreciate watching something you know will not come around very often then its worth the attention Id say.


And when I see the word "legacy" I wonder whether it is just a cliche or do people really think about what it means.

A "legacy" is something that is "handed down from an ancestor or a predecessor or from the past". What could TMac or any other almost great player have ever handed down???
Umm yea, throughout history players have paved way for a new generation. Be it by helping free agency get started, to in game skill sets or monetary/managerial power. In the case of Tmac he influenced the game type of younger players most notably Kevin Durant. Tmac got his game from Penny, Penny got his Magic so and so forth.


Very few players actually have a "legacy". Guys who have a few big stat seasons do not have "legacies".

What if they have a few historical stat seasons?


Seriously, how many NBA players actually have legacies?? How many people actually hand something down to the next generation? The word is ridiculously misused to the point where it's actually meaningless.

I can see your point, the word doesnt really fit what people think it means. I could be wrong but the word usually means when you pass on something relevant to your next of kin or something, but in NBA terms it pretty easy to figure out. In these discussions a players career is what hes passing on, and we are the ones they are passing it on to.

ink
09-18-2010, 03:16 PM
Throughout history players have paved way for a new generation.

So, what did TMac do that hadn't been done before? And specifically what part of Durant's game is due to TMac's influence? Not doubting, just asking for you to be specific.

When I think of legacy, I think of players that had a major impact on their franchise or team. There are very few of those. Even MJ did not have a positive influence or legacy with the Bulls since he left and the team has never really been the same. I'd say a player like Kareem has a "legacy".

What people are actually talking about when they misuse the word "legacy" is either ACCOMPLISHMENTS or INFLUENCE. Legacy would be if they actually made such an impact on their franchise that they actually contributed to success beyond their playing days. That would be a legacy.

Russollini
09-18-2010, 04:10 PM
Pretty much. A player not worth all the attention, positive or negative.

And when I see the word "legacy" I wonder whether it is just a cliche or do people really think about what it means.

A "legacy" is something that is "handed down from an ancestor or a predecessor or from the past". What could TMac or any other almost great player have ever handed down???

Very few players actually have a "legacy". Guys who have a few big stat seasons do not have "legacies".

Seriously, how many NBA players actually have legacies?? How many people actually hand something down to the next generation? The word is ridiculously misused to the point where it's actually meaningless.

Exactly, his legacy is in the "legs we see", which is absolutely known for a VERY, VERY longtime.

michelangelo
09-18-2010, 05:36 PM
McGrady's "legacy" will always be weighed in comparison to his physical gifts, which are pretty close to astounding. He is definitely one of the most gifted players to have ever played the game.

By way of contrast, his injuries, quick playoff exits, and lack of chemistry with teammates leaves one confused, disappointed and ultimately disinterested in figuring out what impact he's had on his game, which is to say, very little.

leoncito
09-18-2010, 05:54 PM
Tmac won't have a legacy. He doesn't deserve one

NYYCowboys
09-18-2010, 05:55 PM
His shoes were dope back in the day.

Chronz
09-18-2010, 09:12 PM
His shoes were dope back in the day.

Unanimous decision, wish I could still get me some of those 3 series. Tmacs legacy lives on almost as a mini-AI in how he impacted pop-culture and sporting fashion. His Pinstripe Magic jersey was ridiculously popular, Im pretty sure they sold more of those jerseys than the actual era from which they came from.

Chronz
09-18-2010, 09:25 PM
McGrady's "legacy" will always be weighed in comparison to his physical gifts, which are pretty close to astounding. He is definitely one of the most gifted players to have ever played the game.
His mastery of those gifts are what astounds me. There have been plenty of talented players to not even make the league so holding it against a great player for not achieving whatever you think he shouldve is pointless. Larry Bird didnt get the most of what god allowed him, Wilt, Pippen, Chuck, Shaq the list is endless depending on what you want to hold against a player, say for not realizing sooner or developing something too late. So yes while Tmac had incredible gifts and couldve done more, he accomplished enough to warrant recognition, added to that talent was the fact that he was also cursed with a frail body that by several accounts put in work to strengthen and maintain. Some things just arent meant to be, and thats the story of Tmac's career. That shouldve been my answer from the get-go, Tmacs legacy is one of tragedy. Aside from the personal tragedy of losing someone near you every year of your career, there was the NBA aspect of every major teammate hes ever played alongside of has had their own history of injuries. Vince Carter was healthy alongside Tmac but that didnt last long, Grant Hill suffered the injury during a season in which he spoke with Tmac about leaving to Orlando in the upcoming Off-Season. Then forces his way to play alongside Yao. Nuff said.


By way of contrast, his injuries, quick playoff exits, and lack of chemistry with teammates leaves one confused, disappointed and ultimately disinterested in figuring out what impact he's had on his game, which is to say, very little.

Compared to whom?

And what about his playoff outings has you confused/disappointed? If your uninterested in finding the truth how can you gauge his impact on the game?

Chronz
09-18-2010, 09:41 PM
So, what did TMac do that hadn't been done before?
What do you mean, where did I say he did something uniquely his own? If your talking about isolated memorable possessions we've (as in our generation) never seen before, then there are a couple of breathtaking moments. If your trying to ask what I feel Tmac has accomplished, then the first thing Id want to know is what did you EXPECT of him given his environment. If its skillset you mean then its unparalleled ball handling for someone his size that combined with his court vision was the direct reason for putting up one the most impressive turnover rates for someone carrying such a heavy load. Someone who not only created for his teammates but attacked the rim and got to the line. Think about that, playmaking and forays to the rim are the 2 most turnover prone sequences in the game. Guys like Dirk can post low turnover marks because they rely on the least turnover prone playcalls and dont carry the same playmaking responsibility. Tmac was that great of a decision maker.


And specifically what part of Durant's game is due to TMac's influence? Not doubting, just asking for you to be specific.

Dont ask me bro they play nothing alike IMO but I hear the comparison being made that they were similar only mixed in with alil Dirk, that Tmac was smoother, quicker, and all around smarter. But with Durants physical gifts he can be efficient enough that his lack of playmaking is understandable. What isnt are his handles, then again hes 6"11 and still learning.


When I think of legacy, I think of players that had a major impact on their franchise or team.
Why not the game? Its fans/players? Why do you side for an unknown entity (Franchise?) who Im willing to bet exploited those very players to selfish degree?

fadedmario
09-18-2010, 09:42 PM
TMAC will win a playoff series in Detroit. That will be his legacy.

_KB24_
09-18-2010, 09:45 PM
He's a very unique and interesting case for me. I use to love watching him play in Orlando because he was basically a mirror image of Kobe on the court. They were both so similar and their duels against each other were a joy to watch. I did lose sympathy with him after he went to Houston and still failed to win. Nowadays I feel bad for him because of all the pounding the media has given him. The guy is/was one of the hardest/most dedicated trainers and workers of the game. Just check out a video of this guy training, it's unbelievable. Still top 5 in the league when it comes to dedication to the game despite the media backlash.

Sadly, people will not remember him as an all-time great. whether that's fair or not.

Gary Reasons
09-18-2010, 09:54 PM
I'll remember his knick days/thread

kinnikuman24
09-18-2010, 09:56 PM
sad to say but injuries.

PrettyBoyJ
09-19-2010, 12:18 AM
I'll always remember him as a good scorer, But analyst and other sports reporters wont forget his injuries and lack of playoff success, and probably his bad break up with his former teams...

FOBolous
09-19-2010, 01:55 AM
lol

Says the man who has never defended any of his opinions like ever

i have. many times.

pd1dish
09-19-2010, 02:44 AM
saw the vince carter one so i was thinking the same about tmac.

How will you remember tmac?

13 points in 33 seconds
62 point performance against the wizards
51 against carmelo his rookie year
arguably the best wing player of this generation in his prime

5th all time in career playoff ppg (check his rebounding and assists. they are great as well)

or the stupid popular one that everyone regurgitates from ESPN:

couldn't make it out if the first round

or

injuries

growing up, mcgrady was my favorite player to watch. i remember watching the all-star game and he did a pass off the back board to himself, and jammed it. i was only 10 or 11 and it was the first time i had seen that and it is one of my favorite nba memories (along with vince carters dunk contest).

sadly to say, the past few years have been horrible for mcgrady and i have more memories of him being hurt. hes not going to be remembered for the good. every time his name is ever mentioned as one of the best, the fact that he couldnt make it out the first round will always be brought up. not how i will remember him but how most will.

Knicks21
09-19-2010, 07:44 AM
Black Mamba 2.0 in Orlando

Patman
09-19-2010, 08:17 AM
One of the best Players in the Game if not the best for some years. Could have been something else. But injuries destroyed his career. His early playoff exits will keep him down in the eyes of most.

But i think he gets to much heat for his early exits because most of the teams he was on were 1st round exits waiting to happen and were only in the playoffs because tracy took them there.