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oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 02:09 PM
I think he's upper echelon next to LeBron and Kobe now that he led Team USA to a gold medal. Thoughts?

Kevin Durant Makes "The Leap" At FIBA World Championship (http://www.neontommy.com/news/2010/09/kevin-durant-makes-leap-fiba-world-championship)

Joshtd1
09-14-2010, 02:14 PM
Eh..still think he is just a scorer for now. Need to see better playmaking IMO, and consistant good D, which he is certainly capable of as he showed when he guarded Kobe in the playoffs.

oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 02:16 PM
Eh..still think he is just a scorer for now. Need to see better playmaking IMO, and consistant good D, which he is certainly capable of as he showed when he guarded Kobe in the playoffs.

I agree in terms of defense. But the leadership qualities he showed put him at another level in my opinion. He carried that team on his back and there wasn't much talent around him compared to years past.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 02:17 PM
:clap:

asandhu23
09-14-2010, 02:19 PM
If Durant is worthy of the Upper Echelon, then Monta belongs up there.

compare their stats and percentages.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_durant/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/

Baller1
09-14-2010, 02:19 PM
If he is upper echelon, then Monta belongs up there.

compare their stats and percentages.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_durant/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/

:laugh2:

Good one.

asandhu23
09-14-2010, 02:23 PM
:laugh2:

Good one.

oh please. Durant is a ballhog. Monta in his 5 years has attempted less shots than Durant in his 3 years. just look at the career stats page and FG attempts

Baller1
09-14-2010, 02:26 PM
oh please. Durant is a ballhog. Monta in his 5 years has attempted less shots than Durant in his 3 years. just look at the career stats page and FG attempts

:laugh2:

oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 02:28 PM
If Durant is worthy of the Upper Echelon, then Monta belongs up there.

compare their stats and percentages.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_durant/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/

Okay, now compare their team win totals...

Chronz
09-14-2010, 02:31 PM
Okay, now compare their team win totals...

no go back and compare the stats, not even close

beasted86
09-14-2010, 02:38 PM
Okay, now compare their team win totals...

Believe it or not, GSW has more wins in the last 3 years. 103 vs. 93.

Poor argument.

Anyway, Monta nor Durant belong in best of the league discussion. Durant can hang in best of the league scorers, and maybe rebounding per position, but not overall talent. Monta doesn't really belong in any top categories. BTW, Durant >>> Monta.

oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 02:39 PM
Believe it or not, GSW has more wins in the last 3 years. 103 vs. 93.

Poor argument.

All I know is the Thunder made the playoffs last season and the Warriors didn't come close. That's a good enough argument for me.

ComputerGuy007
09-14-2010, 03:03 PM
If I were a General Manger in the NBA who would I choose to be the cornerstone player for my organization. I believe every GM would choose Kevin Durant. Kobe is too old and Lebron is pretty much a head case. Kevin Durant, almost to a fault is humble, but before is is through he will be the best the NBA has ever seen.

Yes he took a leap at the FIBA's, the leap distanced himself further ahead of the superstars of today.

Carey
09-14-2010, 03:06 PM
oh please. Durant is a ballhog. Monta in his 5 years has attempted less shots than Durant in his 3 years. just look at the career stats page and FG attempts

Durant is on a team that depends on him to score and score big, we are still just an average offensive team at this point.

Khalifa21
09-14-2010, 03:35 PM
If Durant is worthy of the Upper Echelon, then Monta belongs up there.

compare their stats and percentages.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_durant/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/

:laugh2:

Now compare their advanced stats.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Kevin Durant 2009-10 21 82 3239 26.2 .607 .514 3.8 17.9 11.0 13.5 1.8 1.9 11.7 32.0 118 104 11.1 5.0 16.1 0.238
2 Monta Ellis 2009-10 24 64 2647 16.7 .517 .476 1.9 9.0 5.4 21.2 2.6 0.7 13.4 29.4 99 112 0.0 1.3 1.3 0.023

TheTakeOver24
09-14-2010, 03:41 PM
Nice... this post is a big smack in the face to DWade.
w/e its cool tho, I'll point it out again... Kevin Durant is taking the place of LeBron as the guy the media and fans are building up wayyy too much. I think i just read on here that Durant will be the best the NBA has ever seen.... yeah ok....

oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 03:44 PM
Nice... this post is a big smack in the face to DWade.
w/e its cool tho, I'll point it out again... Kevin Durant is taking the place of LeBron as the guy the media and fans are building up wayyy too much. I think i just read on here that Durant will be the best the NBA has ever seen.... yeah ok....

There's a difference. LeBron got all that hype without ever having played a game in the league. Durant has played 3 seasons, won a scoring title and led his team to the playoffs. I don't think it's too much hype. He's done things to justify it.

LAgametime
09-14-2010, 03:51 PM
i can understand people saying he's not at kobe's, lebron's, and dwade's level but to compare durant to monta ellis is a pure joke

Jewelz0376
09-14-2010, 03:52 PM
There's a difference. LeBron got all that hype without ever having played a game in the league. Durant has played 3 seasons, won a scoring title and led his team to the playoffs. I don't think it's too much hype. He's done things to justify it.

Not really... Lebron had a lot of hype coming into the league, but into went to a different level once he started playing and the media realized how good he actually was....

Same with Durant...he was hyped since HS too...and then he dominated college and had a lot of hype...and now the media is on his nuts after seeing how good he is in the league...Not to mention to add to the fact that Lebron is now the devil lol

TheTakeOver24
09-14-2010, 03:52 PM
There's a difference. LeBron got all that hype without ever having played a game in the league. Durant has played 3 seasons, won a scoring title and led his team to the playoffs. I don't think it's too much hype. He's done things to justify it.

So one first round exit and a scoring title puts him next to or higher than Kobe/LeBron/Wade?
At least let him average more than 3 assists per game before you do that. At least let him win a playoff series. I get it, this kid is young... but he's not on the upper level yet. You have to produce in the playoffs to be on that level.
In my opinion he's reached Carmelo Anthony level... which is AMAZING for a player his age... but dont start putting him in the conversation with Kobe/LeBron/Wade just yet.

oldenpolynice
09-14-2010, 03:57 PM
So one first round exit and a scoring title puts him next to or higher than Kobe/LeBron/Wade?
At least let him average more than 3 assists per game before you do that. At least let him win a playoff series. I get it, this kid is young... but he's not on the upper level yet. You have to produce in the playoffs to be on that level.
In my opinion he's reached Carmelo Anthony level... which is AMAZING for a player his age... but dont start putting him in the conversation with Kobe/LeBron/Wade just yet.

His success at the international level (getting leadership experience, etc.) sets the stage for playoff success and individual awards this year. We saw this with Barkley in 1993 and LeBron in 2008. Both those players came off international success to win MVP awards. I think Durant will do the same in 2011.

scutch11
09-14-2010, 04:07 PM
i really cant believe what im reading.

to the people comparing durant to monta, have you watched either of them.

over the last season and a half including FIBA, durant has show that he is INARGUABLY a top 5 player in the league.

he is smart, calm, collected, clutch, unselfish, and a winner. monta is none of those things. durant is borderline unguardable, and his defensive effort has been a key to the rejuvenation of the okc franchise

there is no comparison between the two, period.

Chronz
09-14-2010, 04:11 PM
So now he carried bums?

Khalifa21
09-14-2010, 04:32 PM
Seriously though, all this Durant hype is getting a bit too much.

The guy is an incredible talent, but one great season where he won a scoring title and led his team to the #8 seed does not constitute some of the superlatives being placed on him. Just my opinion though...

asandhu23
09-14-2010, 04:56 PM
Durant is on a team that depends on him to score and score big, we are still just an average offensive team at this point.

Lol. Same goes for Monta Ellis last two seasons

lavilevi23
09-14-2010, 04:58 PM
Wade > Durant.

asandhu23
09-14-2010, 05:04 PM
wade > durant.

no ****

kArSoN RyDaH
09-14-2010, 05:12 PM
durant is great but not in the 1st tier of nba players (kobe lebron wade) just yet.


not to take away anything from durant, bc he is an amazing player but i think one or two more solid years of similar production to this year is what he needs to have in order to be considered a top tier player. hes had just ONE excellent season. personally id like to see one more season of dominance on offense and lights out scoring to be considered ELITE. also would like to see hiim improve on the defensive side becoming a shut down defender.

beasted86
09-14-2010, 05:25 PM
So now he carried bums?

This is how far people will go with their stories.

Anway, Durant is good, but I don't think he is top 5. (Kobe, Wade, LeBron, CP3, Dwight). Right now he's just a scorer, which would make him no different than a Dirk or Carmelo.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 05:29 PM
durant is great but not in the 1st tier of nba players (kobe lebron wade) just yet.


not to take away anything from durant, bc he is an amazing player but i think one or two more solid years of similar production to this year is what he needs to have in order to be considered a top tier player. hes had just ONE excellent season. personally id like to see one more season of dominance on offense and lights out scoring to be considered ELITE. also would like to see hiim improve on the defensive side becoming a shut down defender.

See this is where people seem to get misdirected.

He had one HISTORICAL season.



Led team to 6th best turnaround in NBA history
Youngest scoring champ of all time
Won H.O.R.S.E. competition for second year in a row
First All-Star appearance
Set the modern record for consecutive 25 point games, only trailing Jordan
One of only 5-6 players to ever record 30 points while maintaining a ts% over .60
All NBA First team
Second in MVP voting
First playoff birth
Statistically, only inferior to one player in the league, LeBron
Led USA team to first Gold Medal in the world championships in 16 years
World Championships Tournament MVP
Most total points by USA player in the tournament
Record for most points in a single game by a US player

kArSoN RyDaH
09-14-2010, 05:33 PM
See this is where people seem to get misdirected.

He had one HISTORICAL season.



Led team to 6th best turnaround in NBA history
Youngest scoring champ of all time
Won H.O.R.S.E. competition for second year in a row
First All-Star appearance
Set the modern record for consecutive 25 point games, only trailing Jordan
One of only 5-6 players to ever record 30 points while maintaining a ts% over .60
All NBA First team
Second in MVP voting
First playoff birth
Statistically, only inferior to one player in the league, LeBron


my point isnt with what hes accomplished. its with how long hes done it. its still ONE season. i want to see him produce in the same ways next year. hes an amazing player and id love to see him become great and an even better defender but i just dont think he's there yet.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 05:33 PM
This is how far people will go with their stories.

Anway, Durant is good, but I don't think he is top 5. (Kobe, Wade, LeBron, CP3, Dwight). Right now he's just a scorer, which would make him no different than a Dirk or Carmelo.


Defensive Win Shares

1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.1
2. Gerald Wallace-CHA 6.2
3. LeBron James-CLE 5.2
4. Josh Smith-ATL 5.1
5. Kevin Durant-OKC 5.0
6. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.9
7. Andrew Bogut-MIL 4.8
8. Rajon Rondo-BOS 4.7
9. Carlos Boozer-UTA 4.6
10. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.6
11. Stephen Jackson-TOT 4.6
12. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.5
13. Marcus Camby-TOT 4.3
14. Jeff Green-OKC 4.2
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.2
16. Raymond Felton-CHA 4.0
17. Jason Kidd-DAL 4.0
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.0
19. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 3.9
20. Al Horford-ATL 3.9

Cano4prez
09-14-2010, 05:33 PM
Is Wade not in the upper echelon?

Baller1
09-14-2010, 05:35 PM
my point isnt with what hes accomplished. its with how long hes done it. its still ONE season. i want to see him produce in the same ways next year. hes an amazing player and id love to see him become great and an even better defender but i just dont think he's there yet.

You're right. It is just one season, which is why I've never stated he's better than Wade, LeBron, or Kobe.

There's no doubt in my mind that this season he'll prove it's not a fluke, and he can continue to do it. But I'll agree, he needs to do it again to surpass any of those three.

Avenged
09-14-2010, 05:40 PM
:laugh2:

Now compare their advanced stats.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Kevin Durant 2009-10 21 82 3239 26.2 .607 .514 3.8 17.9 11.0 13.5 1.8 1.9 11.7 32.0 118 104 11.1 5.0 16.1 0.238
2 Monta Ellis 2009-10 24 64 2647 16.7 .517 .476 1.9 9.0 5.4 21.2 2.6 0.7 13.4 29.4 99 112 0.0 1.3 1.3 0.023


Wow, Monta is horrible.

I cannot believe there's comparisons in this thread between the two..



Defensive Win Shares

1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.1
2. Gerald Wallace-CHA 6.2
3. LeBron James-CLE 5.2
4. Josh Smith-ATL 5.1
5. Kevin Durant-OKC 5.0
6. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.9
7. Andrew Bogut-MIL 4.8
8. Rajon Rondo-BOS 4.7
9. Carlos Boozer-UTA 4.6
10. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.6
11. Stephen Jackson-TOT 4.6
12. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.5
13. Marcus Camby-TOT 4.3
14. Jeff Green-OKC 4.2
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.2
16. Raymond Felton-CHA 4.0
17. Jason Kidd-DAL 4.0
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.0
19. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 3.9
20. Al Horford-ATL 3.9

Surprised to see Odom ahead of any Laker, let alone being #6. :)

Baller1
09-14-2010, 05:45 PM
Wow, Monta is horrible.

I cannot believe there's comparisons in this thread between the two..



Surprised to see Odom ahead of any Laker, let alone being #6. :)

Yeah, there's a lot of underrated defenders in this league. People seem to pick favorites on defense, and then those are the "premiere defenders" of the league for as long as the media wants them to be.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-14-2010, 05:54 PM
You're right. It is just one season, which is why I've never stated he's better than Wade, LeBron, or Kobe.

There's no doubt in my mind that this season he'll prove it's not a fluke, and he can continue to do it. But I'll agree, he needs to do it again to surpass any of those three.


well there it is there. those 3 are top tier. durant falls short but not too far behind with a solid season this year.



Yeah, there's a lot of underrated defenders in this league. People seem to pick favorites on defense, and then those are the "premiere defenders" of the league for as long as the media wants them to be.

if im not mistaken isnt it the coaches who vote for all nba defensive teams?

media doesnt really talk about defensive players they are more about the flash and scoring imo.

coaches know who the elite defenders are because they watch film on these guys when they play and they know who to expose and not to which is why the nba defensive first team is the way it is.

LakersKB24
09-14-2010, 06:19 PM
my point isnt with what hes accomplished. its with how long hes done it. its still ONE season. i want to see him produce in the same ways next year. hes an amazing player and id love to see him become great and an even better defender but i just dont think he's there yet.

Sure, it's one season, but he actually accomplished SOMETHING to justify his hype to some extent, unlike LeBron who got hyped entering the league, like he had already won several rings and MVP awards without even stepping on an NBA court.

I agree that Durant is getting a lot of hype these days and it's definitely too much, but I'd rather have a humble, modest guy like KD to be the face of the NBA other than LeBron who proved this summer once again what kind of a douchebag he is.
But let's not go there again.

The bottom line is that Durant is the closest to Kobe/LeBron/Wade talentwise and if he reaches his potential and is surrounded with the right players he might even have a better career than all three of them. But that's fortune-telling.
The thing is he's just too young to be in the conversation of the best player in the league, but if he keeps doing what he has been doing over the last year, the sky is the limit.

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 06:29 PM
Heat fans, u mad? :laugh2:



But seriously, Durant made "the leap" last year. Down the stretch in April, when the Thunder were battling for playoff position his stat line:

8 games
34.6 PPG
7.9 RPG
3.8 APG
.634 TS%

kArSoN RyDaH
09-14-2010, 06:35 PM
heat fans, u mad? :laugh2:



But seriously, durant made "the leap" last year. Down the stretch in april, when the thunder were battling for playoff position his stat line:

8 games
34.6 ppg
7.9 rpg
3.8 apg
.634 ts%

dont really see how one stretch can put him over the top. I think if hes able to maintain his high level of play like he did last year he will automatically make that leap.

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 06:52 PM
dont really see how one stretch can put him over the top. I think if hes able to maintain his high level of play like he did last year he will automatically make that leap.

Consider it the cherry on top of his unbelievable season.

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 06:57 PM
All I know is the Thunder made the playoffs last season and the Warriors didn't come close. That's a good enough argument for me.

When the warriors made the playoffs the knocked off the number 1 seed, just sayin. people please stop gettin caught up in the moment and actually think last yr. it was melo who everyone praised and said the nuggets wud knock off the lakers but instead they lost in the 1st round. Durant is a great volume scorer but hes not wade, lebron, or kobe.

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 07:06 PM
When the warriors made the playoffs the knocked off the number 1 seed, just sayin. people please stop gettin caught up in the moment and actually think last yr. it was melo who everyone praised and said the nuggets wud knock off the lakers but instead they lost in the 1st round. Durant is a great volume scorer but hes not wade, lebron, or kobe.

The Nuggets could have knocked off the Lakers if it weren't for Karl's health.

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 07:59 PM
The Nuggets could have knocked off the Lakers if it weren't for Karl's health.

I couldve crapped a diamond if i ate a bowl of coal...lol thats basically what ur saying "the could have, what if game" is just that.... a game. but seriously you dont know that, just like you dont know that the celtics wouldve won if perkins didnt get hurt. because history is just that history you cant go back and change it, you cant rewrite it and you cant do what if's because what if's mean it didnt happen. we can only go off of what happened.

thunder were an 8th seed im baffled how the "experts" have them as the2nd seed for this season like dallas,portland,utah,san antonio are sorry all of a sudden. the thunder will be a 6th seed at best maybe even a 7th seed. Durant is a great scorer he is a longer melo.

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 08:08 PM
I couldve crapped a diamond if i ate a bowl of coal...lol thats basically what ur saying "the could have, what if game" is just that.... a game. but seriously you dont know that, just like you dont know that the celtics wouldve won if perkins didnt get hurt. because history is just that history you cant go back and change it, you cant rewrite it and you cant do what if's because what if's mean it didnt happen. we can only go off of what happened.

thunder were an 8th seed im baffled how the "experts" have them as the2nd seed for this season like dallas,portland,utah,san antonio are sorry all of a sudden. the thunder will be a 6th seed at best maybe even a 7th seed. Durant is a great scorer he is a longer melo.

You don't know that the Nuggets couldn't have beat the Lakers. It's not often a head coach gets cancer and is forced to leave his team late in the season. The Nuggets matched up well with the Lakers and Denver proved they could dismantle LA.



As for the Thunder, your point is kind of funny. The Thunder were 5 games out of the #2 seed and improved more than most teams in the conference.

dodie53
09-14-2010, 08:14 PM
lol
@
monta comparisons.


is monta going to be the next mike james?
hehe

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 08:31 PM
You don't know that the Nuggets couldn't have beat the Lakers. It's not often a head coach gets cancer and is forced to leave his team late in the season. The Nuggets matched up well with the Lakers and Denver proved they could dismantle LA.



As for the Thunder, your point is kind of funny. The Thunder were 5 games out of the #2 seed and improved more than most teams in the conference.
please prove to me how u know 100% the nuggets would have won? we can only go off of what actually happened. lets see portland got better(mainly because there healthy) utah got better with Jefferson he does everything boozer except he longer so Gasol want treat him like a lil kid on the block like he did boozer, dallas got better trading for chandler and losing damp, houston is better now that there healthy and have miller to back yao up,lakers are better, San Antonio is better now that parker is back healthy, what did the thunder do? add aldrich and etan Thomas? 6th or 7th seed they improved but not to the 2nd seed. but hey we will just have2 Wade and see i mean Wait and see.

TheDagger
09-14-2010, 08:56 PM
Over the last 55 games of last season(his first 25ppg on the streak was the 1st of the 55 games) he averaged 32.1 ppg 8.3 rpg 3.4 apg on 50/42/91 with a TS% of 62.5%...come on now. That's all time numbers offensively.

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 09:04 PM
notice i never said he couldnt score, right now thats all he can do pretty much like melo. he and melo are on the same level just below Wade and lebron.

tredigs
09-14-2010, 09:13 PM
notice i never said he couldnt score, right now thats all he can do pretty much like melo. he and melo are on the same level just below Wade and lebron.

Melo cannot even touch Durant's toes defensively anymore. When the everyday fan will learn this, I'm not sure.



Another read on "Durant's Leap" by Bill Simmons earlier this week, following FIBA:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100913



...
0:42: Coack K finally subs for Durant (who played every minute), followed by Durant having deliriously happy hugs with everyone on the bench. We wanted it to become his team, it became his team, and now we're here. A fun stat for you:

Kevin Durant, last three USA games: 100 points, 35-for-59 shooting (59 percent), 15 3-pointers.

Everyone else on Team USA, last three games: 159 points, 57-for-146 shooting (39 percent), 14 3-pointers.

And he doesn't turn 22 until later this month.

And I never thought we'd get here this soon.

And I will never wager against him again.

(I hope you kept mental notes, LeBron.)



The "leap" could not be any more clear at this point; now let's see if he can maintain this level, will his team to join him, and even continue to progress (I think these are all going to be a resounding yes).

SteveNash
09-14-2010, 09:17 PM
Melo cannot even touch Durant's toes defensively anymore. When the everyday fan will learn this, I'm not sure.

I like how everyone just suddenly morphs into a great defensive player during one offseason.

Both suck on defensively.

kArSoN RyDaH
09-14-2010, 09:18 PM
Melo cannot even touch Durant's toes defensively anymore. When the everyday fan will learn this, I'm not sure.



Another read on "Durant's Leap" by Bill Simmons earlier this week, following FIBA:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100913



The "leap" could not be any more clear at this point; now let's see if he can maintain this level, will his team to join him, and even continue to progress (I think these are all going to be a resounding yes).

this.

no ones doubting his abilities. everyone knows hes a great player. but the problem with putting him so quickly amongst the kobes, lebrons, wades is that theyve been doin this for 7+ years. he has had one amazing year. next year if he is as good as he was this year i would begin to put him in that top tier in the nba.

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 09:23 PM
Melo cannot even touch Durant's toes defensively anymore. When the everyday fan will learn this, I'm not sure.



Another read on "Durant's Leap" by Bill Simmons earlier this week, following FIBA:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100913



The "leap" could not be any more clear at this point; now let's see if he can maintain this level, will his team to join him, and even continue to progress (I think these are all going to be a resounding yes).

why do i feel like this is Deja Vu everyone was sayin the same thing last yr about melo, point blank hes a scorer hes not a play maker, he is not a defensive stopper/lockdown defender sounds alot like melo to me. by me sayin hes on the same level as melo you act like i said jamaal crawford. melo,roy,durant those r guys that are close but just not there yet, you can put them in any order you want. put it like this if melo,durant, or roy have a bad shooting night they will have a bad game. If Wade,kobe,or lebron have a bad shooting night and they will still have a great game, they will get you double digit rebounds & assist, with a pair of steals and blocks.

tredigs
09-14-2010, 09:35 PM
why do i feel like this is Deja Vu everyone was sayin the same thing last yr about melo, point blank hes a scorer hes not a play maker, he is not a defensive stopper/lockdown defender sounds alot like melo to me. by me sayin hes on the same level as melo you act like i said jamaal crawford. melo,roy,durant those r guys that are close but just not there yet, you can put them in any order you want. put it like this if melo,durant, or roy have a bad shooting night they will have a bad game. If Wade,kobe,or lebron have a bad shooting night and they will still have a great game, they will get you double digit rebounds & assist, with a pair of steals and blocks.

KD gets just as many blocks and steals as Lebron/Wade/Kobe (more than some, slightly less than others) at this point, while out-rebounding all of them. And it wasn't some fluke that he was 5th in the league in defensive win shares (behind only Dwight Howard and Gerald Wallace convincingly, while being slightly behind Lebron and Josh Smith). That's not to say that he's the 5th best defender in the league, but it does go to show just how laughably underrated he is on that end of the floor now (he did indeed struggle defensively his first two seasons... but that weakness in his game is long gone. He put in the work to make the improvements on that end; guys like Melo could stand to learn a thing or two from him).

His impact is felt in all aspects of the game. You can rate "Melo/Roy/Durant in any order you want", but you'd be flat out wrong to rate Melo ahead of him going forward, and insane to even ponder Roy over him.

Watch him play more. The naysayers of this kid (who are upset at the "hype" he's getting) are going to be eating crow over the next decade, so long as he stays healthy (another underrated and big + of his game up to this point, btw).

Ovratd1up
09-14-2010, 09:39 PM
I understand the skepticism of the Durant hype. I really do. But the people saying, "the hype he's getting lately is ridiculous" need to stop, look at the numbers, put them in context, and realize just how good this kid really is.

Here's a number: 21

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 09:43 PM
KD gets just as many blocks and steals as Lebron/Wade/Kobe (more than some, slightly less than others) at this point, while out-rebounding all of them. And it wasn't some fluke that he was 5th in the league in defensive win shares (behind only Dwight Howard and Gerald Wallace convincingly, while being slightly behind Lebron and Josh Smith). That's not to say that he's the 5th best defender in the league, but it does go to show just how laughably underrated he is on that end of the floor now (he did indeed struggle defensively his first two seasons... but that weakness in his game is long gone).

His impact is felt in all aspects of the game. You can rate "Melo/Roy/Durant in any order you want", but you'd be flat out wrong to rate Melo ahead of him going forward, and insane to even ponder Roy over him.

Watch him play more. The naysayers of this kid (who are upset at the "hype" he's getting) are going to be eating crow over the next decade, so long as he stays healthy (another underrated and big + of his game up to this point, btw).

In 5yrs will Durant be top 3 yes but right now hes not thats all im saying im not talking about his future just right now and right now hes top 10 not top 3 point blank and thats great to be top 10 at 21 but please stop gettin offended when people say hes not on the level of wade or lebron its not a knock on him just shows how great wade and lebron r

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 09:44 PM
please prove to me how u know 100% the nuggets would have won? we can only go off of what actually happened. lets see portland got better(mainly because there healthy) utah got better with Jefferson he does everything boozer except he longer so Gasol want treat him like a lil kid on the block like he did boozer, dallas got better trading for chandler and losing damp, houston is better now that there healthy and have miller to back yao up,lakers are better, San Antonio is better now that parker is back healthy, what did the thunder do? add aldrich and etan Thomas? 6th or 7th seed they improved but not to the 2nd seed. but hey we will just have2 Wade and see i mean Wait and see.

I never said the Nuggets would beat the Lakers 100%, I said they could have.


You act like there was a huge gap from the 2 seed to the 8 seed, and that's not true. My guess would be we see a similar, crowded, seeding this year.

ChiSox219
09-14-2010, 09:51 PM
I like how everyone just suddenly morphs into a great defensive player during one offseason.

Both suck on defensively.

To this, I quote Tre:




Watch him play more.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 09:53 PM
In 5yrs will Durant be top 3 yes but right now hes not thats all im saying im not talking about his future just right now and right now hes top 10 not top 3 point blank and thats great to be top 10 at 21 but please stop gettin offended when people say hes not on the level of wade or lebron its not a knock on him just shows how great wade and lebron r

You're right, he's not top 3. He's #4.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 09:56 PM
I like how everyone just suddenly morphs into a great defensive player during one offseason.

Both suck on defensively.

You never have anything intuitive to say.

Maybe you should watch players play before you make your posts.

Ovratd1up
09-14-2010, 09:59 PM
Murderer.

bbblack40
09-14-2010, 10:36 PM
You're right, he's not top 3. He's #4.

I put D.Howard and Chris paul/dwill ahead of him then its a free for all

wade,lebron,kobe any order
howard,paul,dwill any order
kd, roy,melo,dirk,p.gasol any order

SteveNash
09-14-2010, 11:24 PM
You never have anything intuitive to say.

Maybe you should watch players play before you make your posts.

If Durant was a better winner I'd be able to watch him more.

DerekRE_3
09-14-2010, 11:26 PM
If Durant was a better winner I'd be able to watch him more.

:confused:

He came to a team that was completely rebuilding. It takes time when you build through the draft like the Thunder have. It's not a question of Durant being a winner, it's a question of whether he's been on a team that should win it all...and it's quite clear that hasn't been the case yet.

Baller1
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
If Durant was a better winner I'd be able to watch him more.

Damn, if 50 wins isn't winning then I don't know what is.

You're ridiculous.

SteveNash
09-14-2010, 11:33 PM
Damn, if 50 wins isn't winning then I don't know what is.

You're ridiculous.

Winning a third of your games for your career is ridiculous, that's Monta Eliisesque

DerekRE_3
09-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Winning a third of your games for your career is ridiculous.

You have to look at the context of his career. And he has over a decade left in his career. You are looking at this pretty much as superficially as humanly possible, so there's really no point in debating with you.

SteveNash
09-14-2010, 11:38 PM
You have to look at the context of his career. And he has over a decade left in his career. You are looking at this pretty much as superficially as humanly possible, so there's really no point in debating with you.

How am I being superficial?

NBA chooses to broadcast games of good teams.

Durant's team piling up the losses kept them off of TV.

Westbrook coming on and winning more games means an increase in nationally televised Thunder games.

DerekRE_3
09-14-2010, 11:48 PM
How am I being superficial?

NBA chooses to broadcast games of good teams.

Durant's team piling up the losses kept them off of TV.

Westbrook coming on and winning more games means an increase in nationally televised Thunder games.

All that post does is further prove my point.

beasted86
09-15-2010, 01:01 AM
Statistically, only inferior to one player in the league, LeBron

:confused:

I'm really confused. Please explain this:

Player Efficiency Rating

1. LeBron James-CLE 31.1
2. Dwyane Wade-MIA 28.0
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 26.2
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

Wilson
09-15-2010, 01:16 AM
So one first round exit and a scoring title puts him next to or higher than Kobe/LeBron/Wade?
At least let him average more than 3 assists per game before you do that. At least let him win a playoff series. I get it, this kid is young... but he's not on the upper level yet. You have to produce in the playoffs to be on that level.
In my opinion he's reached Carmelo Anthony level... which is AMAZING for a player his age... but dont start putting him in the conversation with Kobe/LeBron/Wade just yet.

I think you're right here. Durant excelled last season and over the summer, but he has to continue the success. For what it's worth, I have faith that he will.

As for the Durant/LeBron thing, as much as I don't like LeBron the person, I think people are understating how good he's been as a basketball player. He has the fourth and ninth highest PER rating ever ('08-'09 and '09-'10), as well as the fourteenth highest single season Win Shares total ('08-'09) - and he's still only 25 years old. That's hard for anyone to equal, even Kevin Durant.

I think Durant is going to put himself in the conversation in a few years, but he has an awful lot of work to do.

tredigs
09-15-2010, 01:27 AM
:confused:

I'm really confused. Please explain this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

I'm confused, too. Are you trying to say that there is ONE stat that definitively measures a players statistical worth in the league? Because I could just as easily post their WinShares and [parochially] say that KD's the statistically better player:



Win Shares

1. LeBron James-CLE 18.5
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 16.1
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 13.2
4. Dwyane Wade-MIA 13.0
5. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 12.3

See? Whew..

The bottom line is that they're both top notch [talking stats, but otherwise also obviously], and there's arguments on both sides of who's better in that realm.

That said, KD still has more to prove before he can be considered the better player than D. Wade. Personally, I think Wade's a little better than Kobe, so if he can pull that off in the next season or two (looking like he just might), then we're going to have the best SG/SF superstars in the league since (if not better than) Jordan/Pippen/Drexler/Bird [Wade/Kobe/Lebron/KD].

beasted86
09-15-2010, 01:40 AM
I'm confused, too. Are you trying to say that there is ONE stat that definitely measures a players statistical worth in the league? Because I could just as easily post their WinShares and [parochially] say that KD's the statistically better player:



Win Shares

1. LeBron James-CLE 18.5
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 16.1
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 13.2
4. Dwyane Wade-MIA 13.0
5. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 12.3

See? Whew..

The bottom line is that they're both top notch [talking stats, but otherwise also obviously], and there's arguments on both sides of whose better in that realm.

That said, KD still has more to prove before he can be considered the better player that D. Wade. Personally, I think Wade's a little better than Kobe, so if he can pull that off in the next season or two (looking like he just might), then we're going to have the best SG/SF superstars in the league since (if not better than) Jordan/Pippen/Drexler/Bird [Wade/Kobe/Lebron/KD].

Win shares is possibly the worst stat anyone could ever use to make any argument in basketball. I use this example all the time, but here goes again... Michael Beasley was the 21st player in the entire NBA in defensive win shares. Win shares are totally trash... it's reliant on team wins and possessions, and bears no relation to minutes.

Anyway, PER is one of the most complete statistics for stats only. Alternate PER (APER) is even better, and Wade leads him in both. Wade is better in stats only.

Also his argument wasn't that KD was better than Wade, it was that he's better statistically than Wade. People need to understand there is a difference between better stats and better player. But I digress because Wade is better statistically and is a better player right now anyway.

tredigs
09-15-2010, 01:54 AM
Win shares is possibly the worst stat anyone could ever use to make any argument in basketball. I use this example all the time, but here goes again... Michael Beasley was the 21st player in the entire NBA in defensive win shares. Win shares are totally trash... it's reliant on team wins and possessions, and bears no relation to minutes.

Anyway, PER is one of the most complete statistics for stats only. Alternate PER (APER) is even better, and Wade leads him in both. Wade is better in stats only.

Also his argument wasn't that KD was better than Wade, it was that he's better statistically than Wade. People need to understand there is a difference between better stats and better player. But I digress because Wade is better statistically and is a better player right now anyway.

In case you entirely missed my point in an attempt to attack back (what's new... you did), what I was saying is that there is no singular stat on basketball-reference that is going to give you a gauge on who is the concrete better player (statistically). You have to take a multitude of stats + context [and synergy] into consideration when evaluating a player statistically. If you think PER is the be all end all of a player stats wise... you're farther behind than I thought.

If you DO want to continue to try to use just one stat (that will promote D-Wade as the #2, just ahead of KD and behind only Lebron), the dudes at ABR metrics are running some analysis better than anything PER is capable of up to this point. Here's an example: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t8NXHdI03bgKIuBE5rgmp2A&authkey=CO3npsgP&hl=en#gid=0

ChiSox219
09-15-2010, 02:04 AM
In case you entirely missed my point in an attempt to attack back (what's new... you did), what I was saying is that there is no singular stat on basketball-reference that is going to give you a gauge on who is the concrete better player (statistically). You have to take a multitude of stats + context [and synergy] into consideration when evaluating a player statistically. If you think PER is the be all end all of a player stats wise... you're farther behind than I thought.

If you DO want to continue to try to use just one stat (that will promote D-Wade as the #2, just ahead of KD and behind only Lebron), the dudes at ABR metrics are running some analysis better than anything PER is capable of up to this point. Here's an example: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t8NXHdI03bgKIuBE5rgmp2A&authkey=CO3npsgP&hl=en#gid=0

Never seen that link before, thanks.

Jannero Pargo was worth (negative) -$2,000,000. Seems about right.

beasted86
09-15-2010, 02:13 AM
In case you entirely missed my point in an attempt to attack back (what's new... you did), what I was saying is that there is no singular stat on basketball-reference that is going to give you a gauge on who is the concrete better player (statistically). You have to take a multitude of stats + context [and synergy] into consideration when evaluating a player statistically. If you think PER is the be all end all of a player stats wise... you're farther behind than I thought.

If you DO want to continue to try to use just one stat (that will promote D-Wade as the #2, just ahead of KD and behind only Lebron), the dudes at ABR metrics are running some analysis better than anything PER is capable of up to this point. Here's an example: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t8NXHdI03bgKIuBE5rgmp2A&authkey=CO3npsgP&hl=en#gid=0
That spreadsheet is worthless without a glossary and explanation formulas. I never said that PER was the "be all end all" measure for statistical production, but it's one of the better ones I know of and more widely accepted by analysts than win shares. APER is even better it is the same as PER but more defined based on actual assisted & unassisted field goals instead of estimates, and also takes into account charges drawn.

But win shares, +/-, player efficiency, and offensive ratings are far too simple of measures to be taken with much weight and I usually disregard them whenever anyone tries to make their argument based on one of those.

tredigs
09-15-2010, 02:13 AM
Never seen that link before, thanks.

Jannero Pargo was worth (negative) -$2,000,000. Seems about right.

HA, yup.

It's an incomplete analysis (I don't like some of the weights he used, and there's a few other factors like age, and some 'synergy' style defensive stats that it could benefit from in a big way. Also, he hadn't adjusted all of his factors yet - i.e. expected minutes/mpg - which I think is a big one), but it's probably closer to a finished product at this point, and it's absolutely in the right direction of a true "complete player stat". A lot better than just having PER, at least...

Alright - gotta pass out soon.

DerekRE_3
09-15-2010, 02:22 AM
In case you entirely missed my point in an attempt to attack back (what's new... you did), what I was saying is that there is no singular stat on basketball-reference that is going to give you a gauge on who is the concrete better player (statistically). You have to take a multitude of stats + context [and synergy] into consideration when evaluating a player statistically. If you think PER is the be all end all of a player stats wise... you're farther behind than I thought.

If you DO want to continue to try to use just one stat (that will promote D-Wade as the #2, just ahead of KD and behind only Lebron), the dudes at ABR metrics are running some analysis better than anything PER is capable of up to this point. Here's an example: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t8NXHdI03bgKIuBE5rgmp2A&authkey=CO3npsgP&hl=en#gid=0

Awesome link, thanks. It was quickly bookmarked. I really want to learn more about some of those statistical categories though, I have no idea what some of them mean. I'd also like to know more on how they come up with the "true value" stat. One interesting thing I saw there were that Stephen Curry was ranked waaaay lower than I thought he would be in the true value stat.

DeZonia
09-15-2010, 02:25 AM
I haven't read all the post yet, but IMO you guys are making Durant look WAY Better then he really is. Ya he did good in the FIBA championships... BUT come on, if it was the olympics he wouldn't of done even close to this good, the other teams looked horrible, NONE of the teams that are supposed to be good had their star players. So making him look immortal is stupid, there was poor defense every game. I mean in the championship Durant had A LOT of open shots because turkey was playing Zone. He is a very good scorer but can be stopped by good defenders that focus on Durant, he is a bad defender that is to weak and can be pushed around EASY. He isn't a bad rebounder but that is expected for someone who is what some people say "almost 7'0".

Oh ya, and remember that the 3pointer was closer then the NBA 3pter.. You guys need to take into account these things before you look at all the greatness of Durant.

DeZonia
09-15-2010, 02:29 AM
i really cant believe what im reading.

to the people comparing durant to monta, have you watched either of them.

over the last season and a half including FIBA, durant has show that he is INARGUABLY a top 5 player in the league.

he is smart, calm, collected, clutch, unselfish, and a winner. monta is none of those things. durant is borderline unguardable, and his defensive effort has been a key to the rejuvenation of the okc franchise

there is no comparison between the two, period.

REALLY? did you not watch the Playoffs? He is very much guardable, he shot 35% against the Lakers in the Playoffs, and 28% from 3pter how is that unguardable? Because he did good against a bunch of 2nd rate international teams where these players can't even make the NBA and a closer 3pter he is top 5 now? WOW you guys really need to think about who he is playing.

DeZonia
09-15-2010, 02:50 AM
I think the big thing is the Playoffs, that is when teams play lock down defense and play every game with everything they have. Ya Durant had really good stats, but would you take Durant before Kobe,Lebron,Wade,Howard,Dwill,CP3 in the playoffs where it actually counts?

Personally I would rather have any of those 5 players then Durant, he does have a good pure shot. But so far he can be stopped in the playoffs where it ACTUALLY matters.

Also you guys act like the only reason the Thunder made the playoffs is because of Durant... You know he has Westbrook to right? Westbrook had a break out season last year, maybe that had a huge contribution to the Thunders record?