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Catfish1314
09-06-2010, 03:51 AM
Every summer, PSD holds an NBA Mock Offseason. Exactly what it sounds like, this game is a mock of the real 2010 offseason which starts off from the date the Lakers won the NBA Championship. Posters on PSD act as the GMs of assigned teams and they make trades, draft players, and sign free agents to try to create the best team. These are the Mock NBA Playoffs.

This first round match-up features the 2nd seeded Los Angeles Lakers versus the 7th seeded Oklahoma City Thunder. The Lakers have home-court advantage.

Vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series. Keep in mind these are not the real life teams.

Lakers:

C-Marcus Camby/Rasho Nesterovic
PF-Lamar Odom/Luke Harangody
SF-Rasual Butler/Peja Stojakovic/Luke Walton/Devin Ebanks
SG-Kobe Bryant/Shannon Brown
PG-Chris Paul/Derek Fisher

Thunder:

C-Jermaine OíNeal/Kurt Thomas/David Andersen/B.J. Mullens
PF-Udonis Haslem/Craig Brackins/D.J. White
SF-Kevin Durant/Quincy Pondexter
SG-Stephen Jackson/Mo Evans/Greivis Vasquez
PG-Russell Westbrook/Kirk Hinrich/Eric Maynor

Lakers Write-up:


Let me start this off by saying that I wonít be using any advanced statistics in any write-up, pending on if Iím able to move forward from this matchup. I know people will have different opinions on this, such as Kicksorbust, or Ebbs. The main reason being that I want to tell you what I know by my eyes, not by someone else writing up my opinion. I fully expect to have people disagree, itís only human nature.

Second off Iíd like to address some areas that the GMís in this game have brought to my attention. Iíve been told that Butler is a poor starter, however I tend to disagree. Butler offensively brings a better game than Ron Artest last season; however Artest does bring better defense. While Artest does bring better defense, no question about if he has slipped quite a bit in that department. Butler is a long player that has some athletic ability to stick with certain players, heís 6í7. While Iím aware he hasnít been able to past 12.0 PPG, such as FC4life would say, however he has reached 11.9 PPG. While I also think that with this better supporting cast he would be able to improve on his numbers, also having the best point guard in the NBA doesnít hurt. Iím also aware that Chris Paul has played with Butler already, however Butler was basically the main wing in his last season with New Orleans, he has the best player in the NBA running next to him in Kobe Bryant. Iíve also been told that Chris Paul canít run an organized offense, however what offense is organized? Cleveland sure didnít have an organized offense, would that mean that LeBron isnít a top player? I know that itís two different positions, but LeBron was the point forward on that team, basically running the offense. While Chris Paul given the opportunity would be perfectly fine running any type of offense in my view, itís like saying that LeBron on the Heat wonít be able to focus on rebounding and passing more than scoring. Heís simply too smart and talented to have that type of trouble, we have a reason why heís one of the best players in the NBA, in my eyes a top 6 player when healthy.

Ah if only I could stop at that, but Iíd like to address some other areas. For some reason people think Marcus Camby canít body up with larger centers, however this is a tad incorrect. Heís a very long player and has that long wingspan, which makes up for his lack of weight. Heís also a very intelligent basketball player, which can never hurt when playing the game. While some people will say Lamar Odom should be a bench player, whatís the difference between playing 33 MPG off the bench and starting? Odom is perfectly fine starting; heís a good defensive player too. Heís also athletic to keep up with different forwards who are able to move around from the post. Odom is also a very good rebounding player, generally bringing down 10 RPG. It would be totally different if Odom was someone who simply relied on his energy, such as Chris Birdman Anderson. Now itís time to move down to the actual matchup, I know, Iíve already wrote up a big enough thing to make it my write-up. Hell, I donít expect too many people to actually read everything.

Take it for whats it's worth, this could hurt me directly attacking the points made by other people against my team, however the best way to fight something is to attack it directly.

Thunder Write-up:


Even though I'm a lower seed, I think I matchup pretty well with the Lakers. I have a dynamic trio of Russell Westbrook-Stephen Jackson-Kevin Durant, while he has Kobe Bryant and Chris Paul. Those 2 players are some of the best players in the leauge, but Kevin Durant is a top 5 player, S-Jax is an awesome sidekick, and Westbrook is a very good up and coming PG. He has Rasual Butler as his SF, which is not very good. Butler is a good bench player, but Kevin Durant would just greatly overmatch him.

I feel the big men are kind of a wash because Odom and Haslem are both better suited for being backups. If Jermaine O'Neal can stay healthy hes going to be a big asset to our team. Camby, while good on defense, is getting older and injury-prone. So IMO the bigs are wash.

So if you look at it closely, I think this is really closer then most people may think. Sure he has Chris Paul and Kobe, but Butler is a weakspot in that lineup. Stephen Jackson is a great defender and can control Kobe. With Kurt Thomas and Kirk Hinrich on the bench, along with 3 first rounder draft picks and Mo Evans, I feel our team is very well balanced. I do want to wish Westbrook36 the best of luck though, and may the better team win. The Western conference is a very tough one, and he did a great job putting his team together.

KnicksorBust
09-06-2010, 10:48 AM
I actually wrestled with this one for a little bit and even though I like the Lakers writeup more I had to go Thunder. Ignoring Kobe Bryant for a minute, the Lakers biggest weakness (PG) became their became their biggest strength and their biggest strength (dominating the paint on both ends) is now their biggest weakness. I don't believe they are better off after this switch.

Ragun
09-06-2010, 10:59 AM
i think the thunder will take this. durant will light up butler for 40 every night.

homestarunner93
09-06-2010, 11:01 AM
I got the Lakers. I can't see Jackson being effective with a high-volume scorer like Durant next to him. He requires the ball far too much.

NYKalltheway
09-06-2010, 11:08 AM
This would be decided after 7 imo. Very nice teams!

Going for the Thunder since I can't see Paul combining that well with Odom and Camby and Bryant will need the ball as well. On the other hand, pure scorer with Durant, Hinrich can join the game as a shooter (so will Peja on the other team)

Very hard decision ;)

astrosmaniac
09-06-2010, 11:13 AM
i think the lakers would have normally have exploited the thunder's lack of talented bigs. but camby and odom can't do that IMO. meanwhile the thunder can throw westbrook, jackson, and durant at paul and kobe to make them work to get their points. paul is also most effective when he has the ball in his hands, as does kobe. idk how it work to have both of them trying to run the offense (like how the kobe-lebron pairing last time didnt work out)

Super.
09-06-2010, 11:20 AM
Lakers without talented bigs = them losing

Chacarron
09-06-2010, 11:32 AM
Thunder. Lakers have the best backcourt of all the teams, but their inability to have a post-presence will hurt them. Durant will have it easier now since I doubt Butler does a good job staying in front of him. If Kobe is guarding Durant, then he will get tired.

Antipod
09-06-2010, 11:41 AM
Very tough call - i went with LAL aka Kobe`s experience

HoopsDrive
09-06-2010, 12:29 PM
Going with Thunder in 6 here..

Bubba17
09-06-2010, 12:54 PM
Wow, its really close haha.

I just wanna say, Lakers fans dont just vote for the Lakers because thats your team. I know there are a lot of Lakers fans on here, so actually look at the teams before just voting. Good luck Westbrook36 though, may the better team win.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 01:29 PM
This would be decided after 7 imo. Very nice teams!

Going for the Thunder since I can't see Paul combining that well with Odom and Camby and Bryant will need the ball as well. On the other hand, pure scorer with Durant, Hinrich can join the game as a shooter (so will Peja on the other team)

Very hard decision ;)

Why can't you see them combining well?


Thunder. Lakers have the best backcourt of all the teams, but their inability to have a post-presence will hurt them. Durant will have it easier now since I doubt Butler does a good job staying in front of him. If Kobe is guarding Durant, then he will get tired.

Oh my lord (Sorry for using the lords name in vain, this is how bad this is). Kobe Byrant the best player in the NBA, one of the best defenders in the NBA. Is going to get, quote on quote, "tired". You do realize that Bryant has defended the best NBA scorers before, right? Whats the difference here? Yes, I'm sure that the Thunder really have a post-presence too? Odom can bring points in the paint and Camby+CP3 is extra points, think Tyson Chandler. Even without the post presence you can open up the middle by driving into the lane and either kicking it out, or passing it to someone like Camby standing right under the net.


Lakers without talented bigs = them losing

Yes, perfect logic.


i think the lakers would have normally have exploited the thunder's lack of talented bigs. but camby and odom can't do that IMO. meanwhile the thunder can throw westbrook, jackson, and durant at paul and kobe to make them work to get their points. paul is also most effective when he has the ball in his hands, as does kobe. idk how it work to have both of them trying to run the offense (like how the kobe-lebron pairing last time didnt work out)

Wish my computer wasn't acting up or I would have finished my write-up.

First off, why the hell would I put Butler on Kevin Durant? Why the hell would I let one of the best scorers in the NBA run free when I have the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be in Kobe Byrant. Second of all, the only reason Kobe Byrant controls the ball as much as he does is because he has Derek Fisher at point guard. You honestly think he wouldn't mind handling the ball a little less if he has a guard like Chris Paul on his team? Throw the whole, "He doesn't have bigs" out the window. First off, all these teams have completely changed, why are you comparing this team to the real life team? So you are all saying that this team wouldn't be able to win if have the best PG-SG combo in the league? Instead of having more length in at PF-C? The only reason the Lakers won because of there bigs is because they had Derek Fisher at point guard, things can't be reversed? It's not like I'm running two scrubs out at PF/C, both of them are able to score a bit. Having someone like CP3 to drive into the lane and bring out the bigs is something that will only open up more points. We all saw what Tyson Chandler became when CP3 was dishing him the ball.

Goodluck to the Thunder though, Bubba is the man.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 01:39 PM
Pau Gasol is the reason for the Lakers success, and now they lack that completely. Kobe needs a top-tier big man to succeed. As said in the Thunder write-up, the big men are a complete wash at this point. Both benches are terrible, although I like Kurt Thomas as a strong veteran presence.

Basically, it's this...

Would you rather have Westbrook/Jackson/Durant or Paul/Kobe/Butler.

Durant and Jackson are going to eat Kobe and Butler alive offensively, Jackson is a vastly underrated player. The Thunder's defense wins it for me.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Pau Gasol is the reason for the Lakers success, and now they lack that completely. Kobe needs a top-tier big man to succeed. As said in the Thunder write-up, the big men are a complete wash at this point. Both benches are terrible, although I like Kurt Thomas as a strong veteran presence.

Basically, it's this...

Would you rather have Westbrook/Jackson/Durant or Paul/Kobe/Butler.

Whoever Butler guards is going to be destroyed, Jackson is a vastly underrated player. The Thunder's defense wins it for me.

Yes because we've tested that when Kobe Byrant has the best PG in the NBA he isn't able to win, I must have missed that one. The big men are a complete wash? I might blow myself up by the end of this. If Marcus Camby and O'Neal are the same at this point then you need to sit down and watch some basketball, seriously. I'd also take Odom over Haslem 10 times out of 10, and I'm a fan big fan of Haslem.

Alright, I'll play around with this theory of yours.

Kobe > Durant
Paul > Westbrook
Butler < Jackson

Wait so Butler won't be able to play decent enough defense on Jackson...?

Baller1
09-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Yes because we've tested that when Kobe Byrant has the best PG in the NBA he isn't able to win, I must have missed that one. The big men are a complete wash? I might blow myself up by the end of this. If Marcus Camby and O'Neal are the same at this point then you need to sit down and watch some basketball, seriously. I'd also take Odom over Haslem 10 times out of 10, and I'm a fan big fan of Haslem.

Alright, I'll play around with this theory of yours.

Kobe > Durant
Paul > Westbrook
Butler < Jackson

Wait so Butler won't be able to play decent enough defense on Jackson...?

Oh, so Camby and Lamar are going to play 48 minutes? Look at your backups, they are absolute trash. You can count on Lamar to dissapear in atleast 3 games, so him and Haslem are a wash. Lamar is the better player, while Haslem is the more consistent player. As for Camby and Jermaine, Camby is clearly the more reliable player. However, he's not going to play an entire game which leaves Nesterovic out there? Yeah, not happening. So again, the position is a wash. Not to mention Kevin Durant has the ability to slide over to PF if necessary, in which he would have his way with Odom.

As for your comparisons, that's solely your opinion. Defensively, the Thunder are superior to the Lakers. Jackson's defense is extremely underrated, to go along with Westbrook's great defense and Durant's ever-improving defense. That leaves three defensive forces to guard two offesnive forces. Butler would be non-existent in this game, leaving the advantage to the Thunder. And I don't understand how you're so quick to put Kobe>Durant. As a player, yes Kobe is still better. But in a head-to-head matchup, it's another wash. We saw how well Durant could play defense on Kobe; EVERYONE saw it. And as for Durant being guarded by Kobe, who knows how that would go. That's the x-factor in the matchup, can Kobe guard Durant. And I honestly don't think so, Durant would be able to shoot over Kobe with relative ease. As for Jackson, he would have his way with Butler making for the Thunder's advantage.

Just because you have two superstar guards doesn't mean you are automatically thrusted in to a W. Your bench is trash, as well as your starting SF. Camby can't play more then 32-35 minutes, and as I said Odom will dissapear in a couple game. And what do you do when Odom dissapears? Bring in the secret weapon, Luke Harangody? Yeah, not gonna work out for you.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 02:09 PM
Oh, so Camby and Lamar are going to play 48 minutes? Look at your backups, they are absolute trash. You can count on Lamar to dissapear in atleast 3 games, so him and Haslem are a wash. Lamar is the better player, while Haslem is the more consistent player. As for Camby and Jermaine, Camby is clearly the more reliable player. However, he's not going to play an entire game which leaves Nesterovic out there? Yeah, not happening. So again, the position is a wash. Not to mention Kevin Durant has the ability to slide over to PF if necessary, in which he would have his way with Odom.

As for your comparisons, that's solely your opinion. Defensively, the Thunder are superior to the Lakers. Jackson's defense is extremely underrated, to go along with Westbrook's great defense and Durant's ever-improving defense. That leaves three defensive forces to guard two offesnive forces. Butler would be non-existent in this game, leaving the advantage to the Thunder. And I don't understand how you're so quick to put Kobe>Durant. As a player, yes Kobe is still better. But in a head-to-head matchup, it's another wash. We saw how well Durant could play defense on Kobe; EVERYONE saw it. And as for Durant being guarded by Kobe, who knows how that would go. That's the x-factor in the matchup, can Kobe guard Durant. And I honestly don't think so, Durant would be able to shoot over Kobe with relative ease. As for Jackson, he would have his way with Butler making for the Thunder's advantage.

Rasho Nesterovic can see plenty of time and Luke is someone like Blair. Luke won't see that much time, normal time for a rookie basically. Odom was pretty consistant in the playoffs number wise actually, although he did struggle in a game of two during the Boston series. Whats the problem with Rasho again? Of course he's not some superstar player off the bench, but he's a big body and solid enough to get the job done. Down the post Durant wouldn't be able to handle that, Odom would out muscle him easily.

Alright, which part would you like to debate? You are being hypocritical, considering that you are simply throwing out an opinion too. Chris Paul isn't one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA? Kobe Bryant isn't the best defensive player in the entire league when he wants to be (During the playoffs), and Butler isn't a solid defender? Why would Butler be, "non-existent", he should see chances to score when they double Kobe Byrant or when he's on of the wings and getting it kicked out to him. You don't see how I'm so quick to put Kobe Byrant over Kevin Durant, it might be to the simple factor that Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player in the league? It's not a wash at all actually, although he did play good defense on Kobe. Kobe also saw less minutes doing that series, which has to do with his slight drop in numbers compared to the rest of the playoffs. Who knows how that would go? I dare you to actually say that Kobe Byrant isn't the best defensive player in the league he wants to be, because that would be laughable. He's able to lock down on any player he wants to during this, usually happens in the playoffs. Please just stop at that, Durant won't have his way with Kobe Bryant in any factor of the game. Butler plays solid enough defense where Jackson won't have his way, and he needs to control the ball a whole lot.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 02:13 PM
Since you added more:


Just because you have two superstar guards doesn't mean you are automatically thrusted in to a W. Your bench is trash, as well as your starting SF. Camby can't play more then 32-35 minutes, and as I said Odom will dissapear in a couple game. And what do you do when Odom dissapears? Bring in the secret weapon, ? Yeah, not gonna work out for you.

When did I say that simply because I have two superstars guards that I automatically win? His bench isn't trash outside of Hinrich? I also have Derek Fisher, Peja (Still solid), Shannon Brown, and Rasho off the bench. My starting small forward isn't trash, but I expected you to say that being blind. I'm aware that Camby brings that many minutes to the game, and as you said incorrectly Odom only disappeared in one or two games during the Boston series. Good attempt at trying to be funny, although it didn't work. Luke Harangody has a solid NBA body and is someone like Blair who should be able to fit into the NBA as a rookie. He's also coming into the NBA as someone who played all his years in college, instead of leaving early.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 02:14 PM
Rasho Nesterovic can see plenty of time and Luke is someone like Blair. Luke won't see that much time, normal time for a rookie basically. Odom was pretty consistant in the playoffs number wise actually, although he did struggle in a game of two during the Boston series. Whats the problem with Rasho again? Of course he's not some superstar player off the bench, but he's a big body and solid enough to get the job done. Down the post Durant wouldn't be able to handle that, Odom would out muscle him easily.

Alright, which part would you like to debate? You are being hypocritical, considering that you are simply throwing out an opinion too. Chris Paul isn't one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA? Kobe Bryant isn't the best defensive player in the entire league when he wants to be (During the playoffs), and Butler isn't a solid defender? Why would Butler be, "non-existent", he should see chances to score when they double Kobe Byrant or when he's on of the wings and getting it kicked out to him. You don't see how I'm so quick to put Kobe Byrant over Kevin Durant, it might be to the simple factor that Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player in the league? It's not a wash at all actually, although he did play good defense on Kobe. Kobe also saw less minutes doing that series, which has to do with his slight drop in numbers compared to the rest of the playoffs. Who knows how that would go? I dare you to actually say that Kobe Byrant isn't the best defensive player in the league he wants to be, because that would be laughable. He's able to lock down on any player he wants to during this, usually happens in the playoffs. Please just stop at that, Durant won't have his way with Kobe Bryant in any factor of the game. Butler plays solid enough defense where Jackson won't have his way, and he needs to control the ball a whole lot.

:laugh2:

The best defensive player in the league doesn't just "be the best defender when he wants to be". That's pathetic, my god. Actually the best perimeter defender in the NBA is Ron Artest, and he was the sole reason Kevin Durant struggled in the playoffs. I watched almost every Thunder game last season, Ron Artest and the Mavericks are the only ones who could slow Kevin Durant down on a regular basis. Kobe is not the best defender in the league, that's such a ridiculous statement. I'm done with this after that statement because this obviously is going no where with you.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 02:17 PM
Since you added more:



When did I say that simply because I have two superstars guards that I automatically win? His bench isn't trash outside of Hinrich? I also have Derek Fisher, Peja (Still solid), Shannon Brown, and Rasho off the bench. My starting small forward isn't trash, but I expected you to say that being blind. I'm aware that Camby brings that many minutes to the game, and as you said incorrectly Odom only disappeared in one or two games during the Boston series. Good attempt at trying to be funny, although it didn't work. Luke Harangody has a solid NBA body and is someone like Blair who should be able to fit into the NBA as a rookie. He's also coming into the NBA as someone who played all his years in college, instead of leaving early.

Trying to be funny? What are you even talking about? I'm sorry I'm not so high on below average role players, as you are.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 02:23 PM
:laugh2:

The best defensive player in the league doesn't just "be the best defender when he wants to be". That's pathetic, my god. Actually the best perimeter defender in the NBA is Ron Artest, and he was the sole reason Kevin Durant struggled in the playoffs. I watched almost every Thunder game last season, Ron Artest and the Mavericks are the only ones who could slow Kevin Durant down on a regular basis. Kobe is not the best defender in the league, that's such a ridiculous statement. I'm done with this after that statement because this obviously is going no where with you.

Why is that pathetic? Bryant isn't the best defensive player in the League in the regular season, he doesn't put full effort into it. Although in the playoffs you'll see the best defensive player in the NBA. If catfish is still viewing this I know he'll agree with me, Byrant can put his defensive level on another gear during the playoffs.

I honestly laughed out loud at the notion that Ron Artest is the best defensive player in the NBA on the perimeter. He's actually slipped a bit in that department if you haven't noticed.

Did I say that he's the best in the entire league throughout the season? I said when he puts himself into that second gear on his defensive level he's the best, can lockdown many different players.

I'm glad you responded to everything though..

Baller1
09-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Here, this is comparing Durant and Kobe's best defensive years in their careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2000&p2=duranke01&y2=2010

Kobe is one of the most overrated defenders in the league (sorry Laker fans, but it's true).

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Trying to be funny? What are you even talking about? I'm sorry I'm not so high on below average role players, as you are.

"Bring in the secret weapon"

I'm sorry that I'm not wrong :shrug:

Baller1
09-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Why is that pathetic? Bryant isn't the best defensive player in the League in the regular season, he doesn't put full effort into it. Although in the playoffs you'll see the best defensive player in the NBA. If catfish is still viewing this I know he'll agree with me, Byrant can put his defensive level on another gear during the playoffs.

I honestly laughed out loud at the notion that Ron Artest is the best defensive player in the NBA on the perimeter. He's actually slipped a bit in that department if you haven't noticed.

Did I say that he's the best in the entire league throughout the season? I said when he puts himself into that second gear on his defensive level he's the best, can lockdown many different players.

I'm glad you responded to everything though..

I'm pretty sure being the best defensive player in the league requires an individual to play great defense at all times, not just when he wants to.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 02:26 PM
"Bring in the secret weapon"

I'm sorry that I'm not wrong :shrug:

Well if your sense of humor views that as an attempt at being funny, then that's not my problem.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 02:34 PM
Here, this is comparing Durant and Kobe's best defensive years in their careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2000&p2=duranke01&y2=2010

Kobe is one of the most overrated defenders in the league (sorry Laker fans, but it's true).

That's a cute little site you have, although I'm not even sure what half of that is. Read the first line of my write-up, I want to hear YOUR opinion, not you forming it on something eles. I'm sure I'll be hearing different lines attempting to trash me because of this, but I simply want you to bring something to the table. It's like using this certain NFL site to rank players and form opinions, not actually watching them.


I'm pretty sure being the best defensive player in the league requires an individual to play great defense at all times, not just when he wants to.

Valid point, however if someone is able to play better defense then a certain player who you'd call the best defensive player in the NBA, wouldn't that make him the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be. Which is the exact point that I'm bringing up.

homestarunner93
09-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Kobe Bryant isn't the best defender in the league. If anything, he's vastly overrated as a defender.

Chacarron
09-06-2010, 03:00 PM
Why can't you see them combining well?



Oh my lord (Sorry for using the lords name in vain, this is how bad this is). Kobe Byrant the best player in the NBA, one of the best defenders in the NBA. Is going to get, quote on quote, "tired". You do realize that Bryant has defended the best NBA scorers before, right? Whats the difference here? Yes, I'm sure that the Thunder really have a post-presence too? Odom can bring points in the paint and Camby+CP3 is extra points, think Tyson Chandler. Even without the post presence you can open up the middle by driving into the lane and either kicking it out, or passing it to someone like Camby standing right under the net.



Yes, perfect logic.



Wish my computer wasn't acting up or I would have finished my write-up.

First off, why the hell would I put Butler on Kevin Durant? Why the hell would I let one of the best scorers in the NBA run free when I have the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be in Kobe Byrant. Second of all, the only reason Kobe Byrant controls the ball as much as he does is because he has Derek Fisher at point guard. You honestly think he wouldn't mind handling the ball a little less if he has a guard like Chris Paul on his team? Throw the whole, "He doesn't have bigs" out the window. First off, all these teams have completely changed, why are you comparing this team to the real life team? So you are all saying that this team wouldn't be able to win if have the best PG-SG combo in the league? Instead of having more length in at PF-C? The only reason the Lakers won because of there bigs is because they had Derek Fisher at point guard, things can't be reversed? It's not like I'm running two scrubs out at PF/C, both of them are able to score a bit. Having someone like CP3 to drive into the lane and bring out the bigs is something that will only open up more points. We all saw what Tyson Chandler became when CP3 was dishing him the ball.

Goodluck to the Thunder though, Bubba is the man.

Watching the Lakers as a fan, I can tell you that Kobe doesn't play 1-on-1 defense as well as he used to. He is more of an off-ball defender nowadays, and many times leaves his man open because of it. And when I said post-presence, you know what I meant, someone like Gasol who you can throw the ball to and will score. Odom doesn't do that and he probably is one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA during the playoffs.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 03:01 PM
That's a cute little site you have, although I'm not even sure what half of that is. Read the first line of my write-up, I want to hear YOUR opinion, not you forming it on something eles. I'm sure I'll be hearing different lines attempting to trash me because of this, but I simply want you to bring something to the table. It's like using this certain NFL site to rank players and form opinions, not actually watching them.



Valid point, however if someone is able to play better defense then a certain player who you'd call the best defensive player in the NBA, wouldn't that make him the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be. Which is the exact point that I'm bringing up.

Poor guy. You should check out the new Advanced Stats Forum that just got created (Thanks Den). You might learn a few things, like how the comparison I provided is fact. Good try at discrediting the most advanced statistical proof out there though.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 03:03 PM
Watching the Lakers as a fan, I can tell you that Kobe doesn't play 1-on-1 defense as well as he used to. He is more of an off-ball defender nowadays, and many times leaves his man open because of it. And when I said post-presence, you know what I meant, someone like Gasol who you can throw the ball to and will score. Odom doesn't do that and he probably is one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA during the playoffs.

Thank you for being honest and trying to remove any bias as much as possible, it's nice to see from a Laker fan.

See Westbrook, I'm not the only one who thinks you are making absurd claims.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Kobe Bryant isn't the best defender in the league. If anything, he's vastly overrated as a defender.

When he wants to be, he's the best defensive player in the NBA. I never said he's the best the entire season, or anything of that sort.


Watching the Lakers as a fan, I can tell you that Kobe doesn't play 1-on-1 defense as well as he used to. He is more of an off-ball defender nowadays, and many times leaves his man open because of it. And when I said post-presence, you know what I meant, someone like Gasol who you can throw the ball to and will score. Odom doesn't do that and he probably is one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA during the playoffs.

I've said this many times already, I don't care what he does during the regular season. In the playoffs he's one of the best NBA defenders in the League, and when he wants to be, the best. I know exactly what you meant, but you acted like Chris Paul wasn't on this team. Odom wasn't even inconsistent during the playoffs, he had two poor games during the Celtics. I'm aware that during parts of the game he might fade at times, however unless you are a superstar player, that is going to happen.


Poor guy. You should check out the new Advanced Stats Forum that just got created (Thanks Den). You might learn a few things, like how the comparison I provided is fact. Good try at discrediting the most advanced statistical proof out there though.

No thanks, and the best part is that you didn't even break down using the stats. If I provide a bleacher report saying that Kobe Bryant is better does that make me more credible? Honestly it didn't prove anything at all, I said Kobe Bryant is the best NBA defensive player when he wants to be. When he gears down he can lockdown anyone on the wings in the NBA, those stats aren't able to disprove that. You'd actually have to watch him play to see that he's able to do such a thing, however you are too caught up into advanced stats to see that.


Thank you for being honest and trying to remove any bias as much as possible, it's nice to see from a Laker fan.

See Westbrook, I'm not the only one who thinks you are making absurd claims.

I'm not making absurd claims at all.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 03:25 PM
When he wants to be, he's the best defensive player in the NBA. I never said he's the best the entire season, or anything of that sort.



I've said this many times already, I don't care what he does during the regular season. In the playoffs he's one of the best NBA defenders in the League, and when he wants to be, the best. I know exactly what you meant, but you acted like Chris Paul wasn't on this team. Odom wasn't even inconsistent during the playoffs, he had two poor games during the Celtics. I'm aware that during parts of the game he might fade at times, however unless you are a superstar player, that is going to happen.



No thanks, and the best part is that you didn't even break down using the stats. If I provide a bleacher report saying that Kobe Bryant is better does that make me more credible? Honestly it didn't prove anything at all, I said Kobe Bryant is the best NBA defensive player when he wants to be. When he gears down he can lockdown anyone on the wings in the NBA, those stats aren't able to disprove that. You'd actually have to watch him play to see that he's able to do such a thing, however you are too caught up into advanced stats to see that.



I'm not making absurd claims at all.

:laugh2:

I don't watch enough? I watched almost every Laker playoff game, as I live in Southern California and my friends are all Laker fans. With that said, Kobe is still not even remotely close to the best NBA defender.

Ron Artest is the reason the Lakers made it out of the first round by shutting Durant down. Durant looked weak out there due to Artest's incredible strength and quick hands.

Don't tell me I need to watch the game more. Just because I'm more familiar with advanced stats then you are doesn't I don't watch the game. Let's not make childish accusations now just because my stats clearly prove you wrong.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 03:32 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kobe's best defensive performance in the playoffs was in the '08-'09 season in which he provided 1.4 defensive win shares. However, his defensive rating was 104, which was worse than a few of his other playoff performances.

Now, those defensive numbers aren't bad in regards to being in the playoffs. However, they are FAR from being the numbers of the "best defensive player".

astrosmaniac
09-06-2010, 03:55 PM
Wish my computer wasn't acting up or I would have finished my write-up.

First off, why the hell would I put Butler on Kevin Durant? Why the hell would I let one of the best scorers in the NBA run free when I have the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be in Kobe Byrant. Second of all, the only reason Kobe Byrant controls the ball as much as he does is because he has Derek Fisher at point guard. You honestly think he wouldn't mind handling the ball a little less if he has a guard like Chris Paul on his team? Throw the whole, "He doesn't have bigs" out the window. First off, all these teams have completely changed, why are you comparing this team to the real life team? So you are all saying that this team wouldn't be able to win if have the best PG-SG combo in the league? Instead of having more length in at PF-C? The only reason the Lakers won because of there bigs is because they had Derek Fisher at point guard, things can't be reversed? It's not like I'm running two scrubs out at PF/C, both of them are able to score a bit. Having someone like CP3 to drive into the lane and bring out the bigs is something that will only open up more points. We all saw what Tyson Chandler became when CP3 was dishing him the ball.

Goodluck to the Thunder though, Bubba is the man.

i didnt bring up butler on durant, dont see why you said that in response to my post. i just think that kobe and CP3 are most effective when they control the ball and offense. therefore i dont see them working well together. the same reason i didnt think a kobe/lebron combo would last time either. i was comparing this to the team you had midway through the mock (with jenning, kobe, pau, odom, and bynum). that team would matchup against this team better than your current roster because you could exploit their weakness down low. now i dont think you can. your strength is you backcourt, but their strength is the backcourt D. kinda like how i matched up perfectly VS the hornets, i think this team matches up perfectly against you

Baller1
09-06-2010, 04:00 PM
i didnt bring up butler on durant, dont see why you said that in response to my post. i just think that kobe and CP3 are most effective when they control the ball and offense. therefore i dont see them working well together. the same reason i didnt think a kobe/lebron combo would last time either. i was comparing this to the team you had midway through the mock (with jenning, kobe, pau, odom, and bynum). that team would matchup against this team better than your current roster because you could exploit their weakness down low. now i dont think you can. your strength is you backcourt, but their strength is the backcourt D. kinda like how i matched up perfectly VS the hornets, i think this team matches up perfectly against you

Exactly.

WadeKobe
09-06-2010, 04:05 PM
This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?

This is Lakers - in 5.

Camby is the best rebounder in basketball and is still a good defensive presence in the middle. He is going to destroy J.O. Jermaine is awful.

Odom is clearly better than Haslem offensively and the rest of the way they're a wash.

Kobe will be able to play Durant well. He won't shut him down as well as Artest did, but Durant has yet to show that he can even show up in the playoffs. He was downright miserable against Artest. I see Kobe limiting him to a certain degree.

Butler/Jackson is a wash...

CP3 ***** all over Westbrook.

Westbrook is not that good, compared to the best PG in the league.

The Benches both suck.

What about this is in question again? The Lakers win on the Boards, they win in Passing, they win in Scoring and it's a wash defensively.

KnicksorBust
09-06-2010, 04:35 PM
This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?

This is Lakers - in 5.

Camby is the best rebounder in basketball and is still a good defensive presence in the middle. He is going to destroy J.O. Jermaine is awful.

Odom is clearly better than Haslem offensively and the rest of the way they're a wash.

Kobe will be able to play Durant well. He won't shut him down as well as Artest did, but Durant has yet to show that he can even show up in the playoffs. He was downright miserable against Artest. I see Kobe limiting him to a certain degree.

Butler/Jackson is a wash...

CP3 ***** all over Westbrook.

Westbrook is not that good, compared to the best PG in the league.

The Benches both suck.

What about this is in question again? The Lakers win on the Boards, they win in Passing, they win in Scoring and it's a wash defensively.

I don't know where to begin. I suppose this is a good place:

Rasual Butler and Stephen Jackson is a wash?

Baller1
09-06-2010, 04:51 PM
This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?

This is Lakers - in 5.

Camby is the best rebounder in basketball and is still a good defensive presence in the middle. He is going to destroy J.O. Jermaine is awful.

Odom is clearly better than Haslem offensively and the rest of the way they're a wash.

Kobe will be able to play Durant well. He won't shut him down as well as Artest did, but Durant has yet to show that he can even show up in the playoffs. He was downright miserable against Artest. I see Kobe limiting him to a certain degree.

Butler/Jackson is a wash...

CP3 ***** all over Westbrook.

Westbrook is not that good, compared to the best PG in the league.

The Benches both suck.

What about this is in question again? The Lakers win on the Boards, they win in Passing, they win in Scoring and it's a wash defensively.

How embarrasing...

WadeKobe
09-06-2010, 05:16 PM
I don't know where to begin. I suppose this is a good place:

Rasual Butler and Stephen Jackson is a wash?

Okay, I'll give you that.

But there's nothing else that's "wrong" about this post. So... maybe "begin" wasn't the right word because there is nowhere else you can "go."

Really, though, neither of those two players will be significant. They're both pretty irrelevant and that's essentially what I meant.

But, again...

Camby>>>>> J.O.
Odom > Halsem
Bryant >> Durant
CP3>>>>>>>> Westbrook

What's the conversation, again?

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 05:19 PM
i didnt bring up butler on durant, dont see why you said that in response to my post. i just think that kobe and CP3 are most effective when they control the ball and offense. therefore i dont see them working well together. the same reason i didnt think a kobe/lebron combo would last time either. i was comparing this to the team you had midway through the mock (with jenning, kobe, pau, odom, and bynum). that team would matchup against this team better than your current roster because you could exploit their weakness down low. now i dont think you can. your strength is you backcourt, but their strength is the backcourt D. kinda like how i matched up perfectly VS the hornets, i think this team matches up perfectly against you

It was various other responses that brought up that point. If this were completely true then Odom wouldn't handle the ball as much as he does on the real life Lakers team, during points of the game he even brings up the ball. Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player regardless if he has the ball in his hands or not. As I said in my write-up, you honestly think the best NBA player won't be able to give up the ball a tiny bit with Chris Paul next to him? They both will control the ball almost all of the time, however Bryant handles the ball as much as he does because he has Fisher next to him. I can't, "exploit" the weakness downlow, however in my mind it's quite clear that I have the advantage downlow. While Odom/Camby aren't two players who will light it up, they both will be seeing more looks with the likes of CP3 tossing them the ball. The difference in placement of the ball can be huge for various reasons, such as a great pass to beat the weak side help.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kobe's best defensive performance in the playoffs was in the '08-'09 season in which he provided 1.4 defensive win shares. However, his defensive rating was 104, which was worse than a few of his other playoff performances.

Now, those defensive numbers aren't bad in regards to being in the playoffs. However, they are FAR from being the numbers of the "best defensive player".

I'm aware you only can use advanced stats to provide some type of argument. However once again, I said Kobe Bryant can be the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be. First, before you use more advanced stats I want you break down the defensive rating for me, because I'm fully aware. However I want to see what you have formed as your opinion on it, we have a difference from attempting to blow me up with advanced stats and understanding them.


:laugh2:

I don't watch enough? I watched almost every Laker playoff game, as I live in Southern California and my friends are all Laker fans. With that said, Kobe is still not even remotely close to the best NBA defender.

Ron Artest is the reason the Lakers made it out of the first round by shutting Durant down. Durant looked weak out there due to Artest's incredible strength and quick hands.

Don't tell me I need to watch the game more. Just because I'm more familiar with advanced stats then you are doesn't I don't watch the game. Let's not make childish accusations now just because my stats clearly prove you wrong.

You still have yet to understand the point, I never said Kobe Bryant is the best NBA defender game out and game in. He's the best NBA defensive player when he wants to be, and can lockdown anyone he wants to.

Artest isn't the best defensive player in the NBA, if you actually watched the Lakers you'd know he has lost a step. Artest is another guy who is able to shutdown anyone he wants when he actually attempts to, however he is often lazy at times.

I'm fully aware of advanced stats, everyone uses them to make claims. They don't prove me wrong at all, you simply can't get past that. You can't even understand the point that I'm trying to make, which means that you can't prove me wrong.

Catfish1314
09-06-2010, 05:50 PM
Who wins the battle on the boards? The Lakers. Camby and Odom are longer and more mobile than Haslem and O'Neal. That and they're simply better rebounders.

Which team is better defensively? The Thunder. Stephen Jackson, Russell Westbrook, Kirk Hinrich, and even Durant (postseason) are good defenders on the ball. That perimeter rotation switching around on Paul and Kobe will hinder their production. Meanwhile the Lakers have no one to stick on Durant. If they expect Kobe to defend him, then they're playing with fire. Bryant would be out of gas by Game 4 if he has to be the leading scorer and defend Kevin Durant for 35-40 minutes a game. Rasual Butler sure as hell can't do it.

The Lakers rebounding and second chance points played a major role for them in the postseason. The frontcourt they have now is vastly inferior to what they field in real life, but they'll kill OKC on the glass in this series. Even with Durant pouring it on, Kobe and Paul will still produce enough on offense to take the series. Homecourt advantage does it for me. Lakers in 7.

vr67
09-06-2010, 06:05 PM
Like OKC better, because of Durant.

astrosmaniac
09-06-2010, 06:17 PM
It was various other responses that brought up that point. If this were completely true then Odom wouldn't handle the ball as much as he does on the real life Lakers team, during points of the game he even brings up the ball. Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player regardless if he has the ball in his hands or not. As I said in my write-up, you honestly think the best NBA player won't be able to give up the ball a tiny bit with Chris Paul next to him? They both will control the ball almost all of the time, however Bryant handles the ball as much as he does because he has Fisher next to him. I can't, "exploit" the weakness downlow, however in my mind it's quite clear that I have the advantage downlow. While Odom/Camby aren't two players who will light it up, they both will be seeing more looks with the likes of CP3 tossing them the ball. The difference in placement of the ball can be huge for various reasons, such as a great pass to beat the weak side help.

and im willing to bet that most of the time odom brings up the ball, kobe isnt playing. kobe has a usage of nearly 33%. he takes up a third of the offensive possessions by himself. add in paul's nearly 1/4 of the possessions paul takes up and i honestly dont think there are enough possessions to go around.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 07:08 PM
It was various other responses that brought up that point. If this were completely true then Odom wouldn't handle the ball as much as he does on the real life Lakers team, during points of the game he even brings up the ball. Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player regardless if he has the ball in his hands or not. As I said in my write-up, you honestly think the best NBA player won't be able to give up the ball a tiny bit with Chris Paul next to him? They both will control the ball almost all of the time, however Bryant handles the ball as much as he does because he has Fisher next to him. I can't, "exploit" the weakness downlow, however in my mind it's quite clear that I have the advantage downlow. While Odom/Camby aren't two players who will light it up, they both will be seeing more looks with the likes of CP3 tossing them the ball. The difference in placement of the ball can be huge for various reasons, such as a great pass to beat the weak side help.



I'm aware you only can use advanced stats to provide some type of argument. However once again, I said Kobe Bryant can be the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be. First, before you use more advanced stats I want you break down the defensive rating for me, because I'm fully aware. However I want to see what you have formed as your opinion on it, we have a difference from attempting to blow me up with advanced stats and understanding them.



You still have yet to understand the point, I never said Kobe Bryant is the best NBA defender game out and game in. He's the best NBA defensive player when he wants to be, and can lockdown anyone he wants to.

Artest isn't the best defensive player in the NBA, if you actually watched the Lakers you'd know he has lost a step. Artest is another guy who is able to shutdown anyone he wants when he actually attempts to, however he is often lazy at times.

I'm fully aware of advanced stats, everyone uses them to make claims. They don't prove me wrong at all, you simply can't get past that. You can't even understand the point that I'm trying to make, which means that you can't prove me wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DRtg
Defensive Rating (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); for players and teams it is points allowed per 100 posessions. This rating was developed by Dean Oliver, author of Basketball on Paper.


A. 1973-74 to present NBA
Crediting Defensive Win Shares to players is based on Dean Oliver's Defensive Rating. Defensive Rating is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions (please see Oliver's book for further details). Here is a description of the process (once again using LeBron James in 2008-09 as an example):

Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player.

James's Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.

Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) - ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) - (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some
players.

Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.

Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

I'm tired of your claim that Kobe "can be the best defender when he wants to be". That holds absolutely no truth to it, and it's simply an opinion you want to keep telling yourself.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 07:10 PM
It was various other responses that brought up that point. If this were completely true then Odom wouldn't handle the ball as much as he does on the real life Lakers team, during points of the game he even brings up the ball. Kobe Byrant is the best NBA player regardless if he has the ball in his hands or not. As I said in my write-up, you honestly think the best NBA player won't be able to give up the ball a tiny bit with Chris Paul next to him? They both will control the ball almost all of the time, however Bryant handles the ball as much as he does because he has Fisher next to him. I can't, "exploit" the weakness downlow, however in my mind it's quite clear that I have the advantage downlow. While Odom/Camby aren't two players who will light it up, they both will be seeing more looks with the likes of CP3 tossing them the ball. The difference in placement of the ball can be huge for various reasons, such as a great pass to beat the weak side help.



I'm aware you only can use advanced stats to provide some type of argument. However once again, I said Kobe Bryant can be the best defensive player in the NBA when he wants to be. First, before you use more advanced stats I want you break down the defensive rating for me, because I'm fully aware. However I want to see what you have formed as your opinion on it, we have a difference from attempting to blow me up with advanced stats and understanding them.



You still have yet to understand the point, I never said Kobe Bryant is the best NBA defender game out and game in. He's the best NBA defensive player when he wants to be, and can lockdown anyone he wants to.

Artest isn't the best defensive player in the NBA, if you actually watched the Lakers you'd know he has lost a step. Artest is another guy who is able to shutdown anyone he wants when he actually attempts to, however he is often lazy at times.

I'm fully aware of advanced stats, everyone uses them to make claims. They don't prove me wrong at all, you simply can't get past that. You can't even understand the point that I'm trying to make, which means that you can't prove me wrong.

They really do.

The point your trying to make is that Kobe can be the best defender in the league when he wants to be. If you're trying to make a point, evidence is necessary. Just because your opinion is that he can be, doesn't mean it's true. Simple as that.

Ebbs
09-06-2010, 07:45 PM
This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?

This is Lakers - in 5.

Camby is the best rebounder in basketball and is still a good defensive presence in the middle. He is going to destroy J.O. Jermaine is awful.

Odom is clearly better than Haslem offensively and the rest of the way they're a wash.

Kobe will be able to play Durant well. He won't shut him down as well as Artest did, but Durant has yet to show that he can even show up in the playoffs. He was downright miserable against Artest. I see Kobe limiting him to a certain degree.

Butler/Jackson is a wash...

CP3 ***** all over Westbrook.

Westbrook is not that good, compared to the best PG in the league.

The Benches both suck.

What about this is in question again? The Lakers win on the Boards, they win in Passing, they win in Scoring and it's a wash defensively.

:laugh:

I'm not going to get into it with Westbrook because we just see basketball differently. I like using advanced statistics along with what I see, he doesn't. Each to his own.

This post however had me howling lol.

First off what arrogance. . .
"This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?"

Camby is a top rebounder sure but he does not by any means destroy a healthy O'neal.

Odom is better offensively Sometimes in comparison to Haslem. Odom is so damn inconsistent. He often just ***** the bed offensively. Say what you want but there is a reason he is best off the bench. Also he is worse in the playoffs as he shoots even worse %'s from the FT lien and 3pt line.

Rasual Butler and S jax are a wash? :laugh:

CP3 ***** on westbrook? Thats funny because the one time they played this year put up 14 pts, on 5-15 shooting. . . I dont think thast ******** on westbrook.

Umm and comparably to the benches in this thing Kirk, and Kurt is solid lol. Kirk is a great defender, and solid shooter.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 08:05 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

I'm tired of your claim that Kobe "can be the best defender when he wants to be". That holds absolutely no truth to it, and it's simply an opinion you want to keep telling yourself.

Did you not read what I asked? I told you to post what you thought, instead you looked it up on google and said, "gee boy oh boy this seems correct." You still haven't even figured out my argument, let alone tell me I'm incorrect. You are bringing up whole seasons, which I already said Kobe isn't the best defensive player all the time. When Kobe kicks it into his second gear he can be the best defensive player in the NBA, shutdown.


They really do.

The point your trying to make is that Kobe can be the best defender in the league when he wants to be. If you're trying to make a point, evidence is necessary. Just because your opinion is that he can be, doesn't mean it's true. Simple as that.

How do I prove this? I can't search up onto google and find advanced statistics to prove my point, and neither can you to discredit my point. I want you to watch him when he's playing on the best players in the NBA. All you simply have to do is watch him, thats all I've been asking. Yet you seem to not understand the whole entire point, you read everything I write (Sometimes), however it doesn't work for you.

Bubba17
09-06-2010, 08:20 PM
This is insanity. Why have the Thunder gotten ANY votes at all?

This is Lakers - in 5.

Camby is the best rebounder in basketball and is still a good defensive presence in the middle. He is going to destroy J.O. Jermaine is awful.

Odom is clearly better than Haslem offensively and the rest of the way they're a wash.

Kobe will be able to play Durant well. He won't shut him down as well as Artest did, but Durant has yet to show that he can even show up in the playoffs. He was downright miserable against Artest. I see Kobe limiting him to a certain degree.

Butler/Jackson is a wash...

CP3 ***** all over Westbrook.

Westbrook is not that good, compared to the best PG in the league.

The Benches both suck.

What about this is in question again? The Lakers win on the Boards, they win in Passing, they win in Scoring and it's a wash defensively.

You my friend, need some help.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 08:21 PM
Did you not read what I asked? I told you to post what you thought, instead you looked it up on google and said, "gee boy oh boy this seems correct." You still haven't even figured out my argument, let alone tell me I'm incorrect. You are bringing up whole seasons, which I already said Kobe isn't the best defensive player all the time. When Kobe kicks it into his second gear he can be the best defensive player in the NBA, shutdown.



How do I prove this? I can't search up onto google and find advanced statistics to prove my point, and neither can you to discredit my point. I want you to watch him when he's playing on the best players in the NBA. All you simply have to do is watch him, thats all I've been asking. Yet you seem to not understand the whole entire point, you read everything I write (Sometimes), however it doesn't work for you.

All my statistics have discredited your point completely. You said Kobe kicks it into another gear come playoff time, yet I showed you evidence that proves he doesn't. I'm done with this. You're just going to keep throwing out opinions with no proof or concrete fact, so I'm over it.

Ebbs
09-06-2010, 08:42 PM
I really want Wade>Kobe to get on here and try to justify his garbage post lol.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 08:44 PM
All my statistics have discredited your point completely. You said Kobe kicks it into another gear come playoff time, yet I showed you evidence that proves he doesn't. I'm done with this. You're just going to keep throwing out opinions with no proof or concrete fact, so I'm over it.

You said Ron Artest was the best defensive player right? Biggest problem I have with proving you to be incorrect is that I have to bring up these ratings since it seems to be the only way to prove something in that mind of yours.

Ron Artest in the playoffs last season had a defensive rating of: 110
Kobe Bryant in the playoffs last season had a defensive rating of: 109

You never even understood the main point of this debate, which stats can't truely prove/disprove.


:laugh2:

The best defensive player in the league doesn't just "be the best defender when he wants to be". That's pathetic, my god. Actually the best perimeter defender in the NBA is Ron Artest, and he was the sole reason Kevin Durant struggled in the playoffs. I watched almost every Thunder game last season, Ron Artest and the Mavericks are the only ones who could slow Kevin Durant down on a regular basis. Kobe is not the best defender in the league, that's such a ridiculous statement. I'm done with this after that statement because this obviously is going no where with you.

Ebbs
09-06-2010, 08:49 PM
higher DRTG is bad WB. Im confued by your post?

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 08:54 PM
higher DRTG is bad WB. Im confued by your post?

I copied down his regular season rating :p

Ebbs
09-06-2010, 08:59 PM
Oh ok lol I was like wtf way to help him out haha

Baller1
09-06-2010, 09:48 PM
You said Ron Artest was the best defensive player right? Biggest problem I have with proving you to be incorrect is that I have to bring up these ratings since it seems to be the only way to prove something in that mind of yours.

Ron Artest in the playoffs last season had a defensive rating of: 110
Kobe Bryant in the playoffs last season had a defensive rating of: 109

You never even understood the main point of this debate, which stats can't truely prove/disprove.

Alright so now I'll play your game.

If it weren't for Artest, the Lakers might not have even made it out of the first round. Watch the series and you'll see...

This can go on forever. Just give up.

gbpackers12
09-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Lakers in 6.

Westbrook36
09-06-2010, 10:33 PM
Alright so now I'll play your game.

If it weren't for Artest, the Lakers might not have even made it out of the first round. Watch the series and you'll see...

This can go on forever. Just give up.

I never said Artest didn't play a part in the playoffs, hell, even Derek Fisher played a key part in the playoffs.

shep33
09-06-2010, 10:41 PM
Lakers in 6

shep33
09-06-2010, 10:46 PM
I like OKC but, I think they're still not ready to take on the Lakers. Gotta remember that Kobe was struggling with injuries in that series. He completely lit up Utah and Phoenix after he got his knee some rest and treatment. Bynum injured his knee that series too, and Artest was very banged up with his shoulder and thumb. LA was heavily injured that series, so I think OKC slightly got overhyped at that series.

Don't get me wrong I think OKC is at worst the 3rd best team in the west this coming year, but a healthy lakers team is tough, especially now that they have what looks to be a much improved bench. Durant also had his troubles with Artest and Kobe guarding him. I still think OKC is the top contender to the Lakers out west, but LA just got better too... so yeah Lakers in 6. Hopefully it'll be the conference finals.

Baller1
09-06-2010, 11:00 PM
I like OKC but, I think they're still not ready to take on the Lakers. Gotta remember that Kobe was struggling with injuries in that series. He completely lit up Utah and Phoenix after he got his knee some rest and treatment. Bynum injured his knee that series too, and Artest was very banged up with his shoulder and thumb. LA was heavily injured that series, so I think OKC slightly got overhyped at that series.

Don't get me wrong I think OKC is at worst the 3rd best team in the west this coming year, but a healthy lakers team is tough, especially now that they have what looks to be a much improved bench. Durant also had his troubles with Artest and Kobe guarding him. I still think OKC is the top contender to the Lakers out west, but LA just got better too... so yeah Lakers in 6. Hopefully it'll be the conference finals.

This is a mock off-season. The teams have been switched around. These aren't predictions for this actual up-coming season.

WadeKobe
09-07-2010, 02:25 AM
Camby is a top rebounder sure but he does not by any means destroy a healthy O'neal.

Again... coming from a HEAT fan who watched J.O. all year... he's downright miserable. He will be the THIRD option for the Celtics at both Center and Power forward next year. Camby, on the other hand, will be the lead back-up to Oden if he's healthy, or just straight up start for the Blazers. He is still the single best rebounder in the game and is an amaizing shot blocker. J.O. on the other hand is a washed up guy who can't bang down low, can't rebound, and is falling apart quicker than he can even think about it. Not to mention... His playoff PER last year was 2.5!?!?!?!?

Again... this matchup is nowhere near close.



Odom is better offensively Sometimes in comparison to Haslem. Odom is so damn inconsistent. He often just ***** the bed offensively. Say what you want but there is a reason he is best off the bench. Also he is worse in the playoffs as he shoots even worse %'s from the FT lien and 3pt line.

Better offensively sometimes? Look dude. You're talking to a HEAT FAN here. If anyone here was going to defend Haslem it would be me. The fact is that Odom is simply a better all-around basketball player than Haslem is. Lamar is also underrated defensively. He plays very good defense and was better than Haslem in every single defensive advanced statistic last year.

You want to talk about Odom being worse in the playoffs? His PER went from 15.9 to 15.4. His TS% and eFG% dropped .019 and .007.

Haslem, on the other hand, straight disappeared in the playoffs. His PER went from 14.6 to 5.2!!!!! His TS% and eFG% dropped .160 and .143. If those numbers are any indication... this matchup isn't even close come playoff time. Odom destroys Haslem here.


Rasual Butler and S jax are a wash? :laugh:

Pretty sure I already amended this in another post. Please go back and read that.



CP3 ***** on westbrook? Thats funny because the one time they played this year put up 14 pts, on 5-15 shooting. . . I dont think thast ******** on westbrook.

Did you seriously just use one game to compare a matchup? You're really going to allow one game to be the indicator? That's ridiculous.

Westbrook's best career PER is 17.8... Paul's worst in the last 3 seasons is 23.7. The two previous seasons he put up higher PERs than Kobe Bryant has ever had in his life. That isn't ******** on Westbrook? What is?

Westrbook's effective FG% last year was .428 while Paul's was .534. Not even close. Westbrook's WS48 was .105 to Paul's .204. Again, not even remotely close. Will Westbrook play decent defense on Paul? Yea. Will the matchup be close? Not even a little bit.


So, again....

CP3 >>>> Westbrook
Kobe >> Durant
Butler < Jackson
Odom > Haslem
Camby >>> J.O.

Yes the Bench is a little better for the Thunder. But it doesn't make up for how lopsided the starting lineup is.

shep33
09-07-2010, 02:48 PM
This is a mock off-season. The teams have been switched around. These aren't predictions for this actual up-coming season.

My bad... school is starting up again, and I can't even read anymore

Baller1
09-07-2010, 02:49 PM
My bad... school is starting up again, and I can't even read anymore

Understandable, no worries. I wasn't trying to call you out, just pointing it out.