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Mile High Champ
09-03-2010, 09:11 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
09-03-2010, 09:14 AM
I think you can make an argument for every PF on this poll to be the 9th best at their respective position..

mynameismo
09-03-2010, 09:15 AM
David Lee

stejay
09-03-2010, 09:15 AM
David Lee

Sportfan
09-03-2010, 09:16 AM
Z-bo and it's not even close. lawls if Lee wins this poll

Raidaz4Life
09-03-2010, 09:17 AM
Its amazing how many quality players are still up there.

Khalifa21
09-03-2010, 09:20 AM
I'll give it to LaMarcus Aldridge.

Really good post player, with a fantastic mid range jumper. Good combination of athleticism and size (huge wingspan) and solid defensively. Very consistent as well.

save the knicks
09-03-2010, 09:21 AM
Lee
Randolph

Steelers23_06
09-03-2010, 09:22 AM
i havent had much compaints about the power fowards and how this has been going i think everything fell into line. i think the centers are going to be A LOT harder

bigsams50
09-03-2010, 09:27 AM
Z-bo

BOSTON617
09-03-2010, 09:30 AM
z-bo dudes nasty hes underrated

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Lee. He will have a very productive season with Curry as his pick and roll partner. I think Love will also have a very improved season, I almost selected him here

pebloemer
09-03-2010, 09:50 AM
i havent had much compaints about the power fowards and how this has been going i think everything fell into line. i think the centers are going to be A LOT harder

Definitely. Variety of different types of Centers (finesse, dominant, injury prone, up and coming....).

I'm going to go against the grain here and choose the underrated Luis Scola in honour of his strong play in the FIBA tournament. Strong defender, efficient scorer, doesn't need the ball to be affective. Championship teams need players like him.

Brooklyn Mets
09-03-2010, 10:01 AM
DLee

Avenged
09-03-2010, 10:44 AM
You can't go wrong with a first time all-star in the West.. My vote goes to Zach Randolph.

save the knicks
09-03-2010, 10:53 AM
i swear ive seen Zach Randolph play volley ball with the back board to pad his rebound number. Im also pretty sure he taught this to Lee during his shot stay in NY

mikantsass
09-03-2010, 11:03 AM
I went Aldrige here, but it was very close between him and Randolph

*Silver&Black*
09-03-2010, 12:37 PM
Randolph for the tie.

Jays Claw
09-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Kevin Love should be in the top 10.

d-baller23
09-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Rashard Lewis

Antipod
09-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Lee vs Zach - 2 double double machines.

Slimsim
09-03-2010, 01:38 PM
lee

Aapox
09-03-2010, 01:39 PM
I voted Lee over ZBo because he's a better system and team player. Seriously close call though, Zbo is very underrated and both of these guys should be top 10. I didn't see the last polls voting, but I wouldn't put Josh Smith over either of them by a longshot.

Chronz
09-03-2010, 01:55 PM
i swear ive seen Zach Randolph play volley ball with the back board to pad his rebound number. Im also pretty sure he taught this to Lee during his shot stay in NY
Yea but even if he did it wouldnt change anything. Hes not padding his stats because hes forcing a missed FG/a. On an efficiency scale the act of missing and retrieving your own shot counts as a big fat ZERO. Its a neutral move, I know what your saying I just had to point it out. Z-Bo does do that but its not for the sake of padding stats, he really is trying to score. Hes not explosive and undersized so he has to find craftier ways to get good position inside, spiking the ball back to you is a pretty good way to get deeper.

Chronz
09-03-2010, 01:56 PM
I voted Lee over ZBo because he's a better system and team player. Seriously close call though, Zbo is very underrated and both of these guys should be top 10. I didn't see the last polls voting, but I wouldn't put Josh Smith over either of them by a longshot.
You couldnt have said this about him before last year, he was the best player of the bunch last year but what if he reverts to his chucker form?

ABOMB_56
09-03-2010, 02:02 PM
I'm really surprised at the lack of love for Luis Scola. The guy hustles for every loose ball and has a very refined post game. Not to mention he has been tearing it up at the FIBA world championships scoring 30+ points in 4 games IIRC.

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 02:03 PM
I'm really surprised at the lack of love for Luis Scola. The guy hustles for every loose ball and has a very refined post game. Not to mention he has been tearing it up at the FIBA world championships scoring 30+ points in 4 games IIRC.

cause he is 30, plays under the rim, and his number of looks just went down when Yao's foot was delcared healthy.
Scola is a fine player, but by no means is he a top 10 NBA PF.

IversonIsKrazy
09-03-2010, 02:25 PM
I accidently voted for David Lee when I meant to vote for David West.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Lee, Randolph, Love, and Jamison put up emty stats IMO. Scola is relatively unproven in NBA only play.

Aldridge and West consistently help their teams to solid records and at least play in the playoffs most years. I'm picking David West.

Gators123
09-03-2010, 02:27 PM
David Lee

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Lee, Randolph, Love, and Jamison put up emty stats IMO. Scola is relatively unproven in NBA only play.

Aldridge and West consistently help their teams to solid records and at least play in the playoffs most years. I'm picking David West.

how does Love put up empty stats?
You can't just judge stats legit because said player plays for a better overall team, talent wise.

Hokysfan
09-03-2010, 03:14 PM
LA . ... All day! Lee is 100% a product of a system not player.. LA in Knicks system would dominate

Chronz
09-03-2010, 04:00 PM
I'm really surprised at the lack of love for Luis Scola. The guy hustles for every loose ball and has a very refined post game. Not to mention he has been tearing it up at the FIBA world championships scoring 30+ points in 4 games IIRC.
Cmon though top 10 at the 2nd best position in the league?

Chacarron
09-03-2010, 04:01 PM
David Lee if he counts as PF.

Niro
09-03-2010, 04:20 PM
david lee

XJW18
09-03-2010, 04:35 PM
D. Lee finally gets the love he deserves.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 04:38 PM
how does Love put up empty stats?
You can't just judge stats legit because said player plays for a better overall team, talent wise.

What other criteria should I use?

If Love plays for a team that lost over 65 games, don't you think a lot of those numbers came from teams just exchanging baskets and maintaining the lead? The Wolves were not only the 3rd worst defensive team, but also the 2nd worst offensive team. I mean, these are all clear signs that some of the players stats are inflated.

VinceCarter
09-03-2010, 04:43 PM
i havent had much compaints about the power fowards and how this has been going i think everything fell into line. i think the centers are going to be A LOT harder

Well considering Al Jefferson is in the wrong listing everybody is going to have to be bumped up a rank after he's picked :facepalm:

But exluding Jeff the first 3 should be easy.

ChiSox219
09-03-2010, 04:46 PM
I voted for Randolph



I think Lamar Odom should at least be an option if Jamison is.

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 04:47 PM
What other criteria should I use?

If Love plays for a team that lost over 65 games, don't you think a lot of those numbers came from teams just exchanging baskets and maintaining the lead? The Wolves were not only the 3rd worst defensive team, but also the 2nd worst offensive team. I mean, these are all clear signs that some of the players stats are inflated.

ahh, so a player's roster support dictates how you rate thier individual contributions.
I don't buy that at all.

Rivera
09-03-2010, 05:03 PM
ok ill admit i cheated.....i really wanted to vote lamarcus aldridge because he really is the better pf option on this poll

david lee is nice but if he woulda signed with portland i guarntee he wouldnt of started (thats until greg oden got hurt :p)

since i wanted to make my vote count i looked at the poll and this is gonna b btween zbo and lee and i cant vote for lee i think hes an overrated player bad team inflated stats his D is real suspect

zbo is just a monster yes his d is a liabilty as well i would put lee n zbo in the same category for defense but i think zbo is a better rebounder/and scorer so that breaks the tie for me

zbo!

Ebbs
09-03-2010, 05:04 PM
Lee for me then its an open debate.

Jewelz0376
09-03-2010, 05:09 PM
ahh, so a player's roster support dictates how you rate thier individual contributions.
I don't buy that at all.

So you think a player getting 20 & 10 on a contending/playoff team is the same thing as a player getting 20 & 10 on a lottery team?? That can't be what your saying is it??

Jewelz0376
09-03-2010, 05:11 PM
I voted for Z-BO....its a toss up between him and Lee... it can go either way but I'm still not convinced Lee would put up the same kind of numbers in a traditional offense... His numbers would still be decent, but I don't think they'd be 20 & 12 like he got in NY...and his numbers will probably be the same considering he on GS now which pretty much plays the same way...

ball4reel
09-03-2010, 05:32 PM
Z-bo

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 05:41 PM
So you think a player getting 20 & 10 on a contending/playoff team is the same thing as a player getting 20 & 10 on a lottery team?? That can't be what your saying is it??

no, I am saying you can't just flat out disregard a player and his numbers or efficiency if he is on a bad team with no talent.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 05:47 PM
ahh, so a player's roster support dictates how you rate thier individual contributions.
I don't buy that at all.

Yes.

If West can consistently put up ~20 ppg, ~8 reb as a second option for a winning team that is usually one of the slowest paced teams in the league, I would call that as better than a guy putting up similar, yet empty stats as the first option on a faster paced team that has a very poor record.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 05:49 PM
Z-Bo

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 05:52 PM
Kevin Love should be in the top 10.

nah not yet he hasn't proved much. He did average a double double last year but he missed alot of games. Maybe next year he can make the jump though

yanksknicksgmen
09-03-2010, 05:53 PM
Lee
Randolph

beasted86
09-03-2010, 05:53 PM
no, I am saying you can't just flat out disregard a player and his numbers or efficiency if he is on a bad team with no talent.

So if he's on a bad team with no talent, that means his team isn't winning, and his stats are irrelevant. Love, Lee and Randolph may be good players, but they haven't been able to prove it by playing in games that matter. Their stats don't matter because the games didn't matter. Their seasons were over before it started.

Jamison has had chances to prove his worth, and he proved he doesn't step up enough when it matters. He's put up decent playoff stats over his career, but he's just not that great.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 06:10 PM
So if he's on a bad team with no talent, that means his team isn't winning, and his stats are irrelevant. Love, Lee and Randolph may be good players, but they haven't been able to prove it by playing in games that matter. Their stats don't matter because the games didn't matter. Their seasons were over before it started.

Games stop mattering only in March and April, so actually their stats are relevant because in the regular season from October to February, most teams are still trying and giving it their all. So if someone is on a bad team, they don't deserve recognition even though they are trying their ***** off and are putting up good stats? Using your logic, Wade's stats have been irrelevant for the last 2+ years then since he hasn't 'won anything'.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 06:15 PM
Games stop mattering only in March and April, so actually their stats are relevant because in the regular season from October to February, most teams are still trying and giving it their all. So if someone is on a bad team, they don't deserve recognition even though they are trying their ***** off and are putting up good stats? Using your logic, Wade's stats have been irrelevant for the last 2+ years then since he hasn't 'won anything'.

When your team starts 1-15, your season was over before it started. :facepalm:

And Wade led the Heat out of the lottery with a 5th seed playoff spot 2 years in a row. Sure our postseason was over before it started, but the regular season wasn't.

Like I say, those guys may be worth more than their team reocrd says, but until their teams start winning, their individual recognition won't be good.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 06:19 PM
When your team starts 1-15, your season was over before it started. :facepalm:

And Wade led the Heat out of the lottery with a 5th seed playoff spot 2 years in a row. Sure our postseason was over before it started, but the regular season wasn't.

Still doesn't help your argument. You're saying that a player that has inflated stats on a team with bad support players shouldn't get recognition, so therefore Wade (Bosh is another good example, probably a better one) shouldn't have gotten any the last couple years if that's your belief.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 06:25 PM
Still doesn't help your argument. You're saying that a player that has inflated stats on a team with bad support players shouldn't get recognition, so therefore Wade (Bosh is another good example, probably a better one) shouldn't have gotten any the last couple years if that's your belief.

What are you talking about?

This is the EXACT reason Wade isn't considered the best SG in the NBA despite dominating Kobe for the last 2 years statistically (and it hasn't been close... 6+ PER points both years), and Bosh being the best statistical PF and not considered even a top 3 PF overall.

You make a very poor argument.

COBY KARL
09-03-2010, 06:25 PM
Definitely between Z-Bo and David Lee

but im for Lee he's great passing big man

Swashcuff
09-03-2010, 06:28 PM
no, I am saying you can't just flat out disregard a player and his numbers or efficiency if he is on a bad team with no talent.

:clap:

Glad to see someone with a brain acknowledges this

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 06:30 PM
What are you talking about?

This is the EXACT reason Wade isn't considered the best SG in the NBA despite dominating Kobe for the last 2 years statistically (and it hasn't been close... 6+ PER points both years), and Bosh being the best statistical PF and not considered even a top 3 PF overall.

You make a very poor argument.

How? U said that players that put up good stats with bad teammates don't deserve recognition, so therefore Bosh and Wade shouldn't get any (according to you not me...this is your logic) since they put up good stats on ****** teams. And Wade isn't considered the best in the league because he has 1 freaking ring compared to Kobe's 5. Comparing them h2h is a poor argument...they don't guard each other half the time...Wade won't be considered the best until he meets up with Kobein the finals and takes the title from him, which he has the chance to do the next several years.

Baller1
09-03-2010, 06:32 PM
David Lee.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 06:34 PM
How? U said that players that put up good stats with bad teammates don't deserve recognition, so therefore Bosh and Wade shouldn't get any (according to you not me...this is your logic) since they put up good stats on ****** teams. And Wade isn't considered the best in the league because he has 1 freaking ring compared to Kobe's 5. Comparing them h2h is a poor argument...they don't guard each other half the time...

Where did I say that? :confused:

I said winning was important. If you put up good stats with bad teammates, but your team still wins, why the heck would I say that player is bad anyway? :confused:

You are really making no sense, and are making poor points.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 06:40 PM
Where did I say that? :confused:

Lee, Randolph, Love, and Jamison put up emty stats IMO. Scola is relatively unproven in NBA only play.


I said winning was important. If you put up good stats with bad teammates, but your team still wins, why the heck would I say that player is bad anyway? :confused:

So good players on bad teams don't deserve recognition? If someone busts their *** off 24/7, always comes to practice early, sets good examples for teammates, and puts up all-star numbers despite the team being ****, that player deserves no credit? I'm sure u wouldn't say this if u were in that situation.


You are really making no sense, and are making poor points.
I am making sense, u just fail to understand.

CityofChaos
09-03-2010, 07:03 PM
I think its still too early to judge Love. Jamison sucks. Randolph is good and so is Lee.

DL gets my vote cuz hes improved every single season.

alencp3
09-03-2010, 07:38 PM
Z-Bo can get you 30/15 a night on a team with so many scoring options(Gay,Mayo,Gasol)

Chronz
09-03-2010, 07:50 PM
Yes.

If West can consistently put up ~20 ppg, ~8 reb as a second option for a winning team that is usually one of the slowest paced teams in the league, I would call that as better than a guy putting up similar, yet empty stats as the first option on a faster paced team that has a very poor record.

So your comparing Z-Bo to West right? How is it that West gets a free pass for missing the playoffs this year? Z-Bo was his teams best player, outpaced him statistically and in the Standings. Shouldnt your logic dictate Z-Bo the winner having seen how low West can go.

West put up an 18.9 PER on a 37 Win Team (Its his career average)
Z-Bo put up 21.1PER on 40Win Team (Above Career AVG)

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 08:13 PM
So if he's on a bad team with no talent, that means his team isn't winning, and his stats are irrelevant. Love, Lee and Randolph may be good players, but they haven't been able to prove it by playing in games that matter. Their stats don't matter because the games didn't matter. Their seasons were over before it started.

Jamison has had chances to prove his worth, and he proved he doesn't step up enough when it matters. He's put up decent playoff stats over his career, but he's just not that great.

haha, you aren't even worth debating with

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 08:18 PM
What are you talking about?

This is the EXACT reason Wade isn't considered the best SG in the NBA despite dominating Kobe for the last 2 years statistically (and it hasn't been close... 6+ PER points both years), and Bosh being the best statistical PF and not considered even a top 3 PF overall.

You make a very poor argument.

no, those who can come up with nothing better than "HE WINS MORE! THATS WHY HES BETTER" are the ones that say Kobe is still better than Wade. Wade has passed Kobe.
Having great efficiency on bad teams is more difficult than having it on good teams. I really don't understand how you can not value a player's numbers on a bad team. That is ridiculous actually, especially when we have so many metrics that translate statistical contributions into win shares, etc.
You put Love on a contender for instance, and his efficiency goes up. Furthermore, even if it doesn't, you are now willing to acknowledge that his stats are legit, because of wins.

A player can not help their roster. LeBron, Durant, Jordan, and a huge number of players came into the league on crap teams and put up great numbers. I guess you choose to call those years nothing. But when they got roster support around them and their efficiency stayed elite, all of a sudden they are legit.

Your argument holds no water. Its a complete myth that its easier to get great numbers on a bad team. Its not easier to be efficient on a bad team, quite the opposite, due to not having the weapons around you to set you up, finish your passes, cover your defense, must I go on?

dre1990
09-03-2010, 08:28 PM
Zach Randolph. he should be higher on this list after last season

Enemey
09-03-2010, 09:20 PM
Z-Bo he is a beast .

zambo4president
09-03-2010, 09:54 PM
These polls seriously just get worse every time. How in the hell is David Lee or Zach Randolph better than LMA? The fact that Kevin Love and Luis Scola were considered as the 9th best Power Forward in the NBA by 27 of you, scares the **** out of me.

beasted86
09-03-2010, 10:14 PM
So good players on bad teams don't deserve recognition? If someone busts their *** off 24/7, always comes to practice early, sets good examples for teammates, and puts up all-star numbers despite the team being ****, that player deserves no credit? I'm sure u wouldn't say this if u were in that situation.


I am making sense, u just fail to understand.

Actually that's exactly what happened to Wade while he was playing injured 07-08. Wade banged up and calling it quits near mid season still put up 25 PPG 47%, 7 AST, 4 REB. Did you see anyone talking about what numbers he put up or comparing his statline to others? No. Because they are irrelevant when the team only won 15 games. That's just the way things go.

Like I keep trying to get across, that doesn't necessarily mean the player is trash... only the stats. That's the same reason players on deep lottery teams rarely get voted onto all-star teams. Guys like Josh Smith or Rashard Lewis will always get voted in over a David Lee or Al Harrington. Empty stats get you nowhere.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2010, 10:48 PM
Actually that's exactly what happened to Wade while he was playing injured 07-08. Wade banged up and calling it quits near mid season still put up 25 PPG 47%, 7 AST, 4 REB. Did you see anyone talking about what numbers he put up or comparing his statline to others? No. Because they are irrelevant when the team only won 15 games. That's just the way things go.

Like I keep trying to get across, that doesn't necessarily mean the player is trash... only the stats. That's the same reason players on deep lottery teams rarely get voted onto all-star teams. Guys like Josh Smith or Rashard Lewis will always get voted in over a David Lee or Al Harrington. Empty stats get you nowhere.

Wade was injured....that's why no1 talked about him, it's not about the team's record...similar to CP3 this year, and how everyone quickly jumped to Deron as the #1 PG in the league.

And how do you figure that guys gettin good stats on bad teams mean nothing? How can u make that conclusion when Randolph and Lee made it while Smith and Rashard didn't make last years all-star game? Guys on the bad teams do get some recognition, and they deserve it.

Jewelz0376
09-04-2010, 12:13 AM
These polls seriously just get worse every time. How in the hell is David Lee or Zach Randolph better than LMA? The fact that Kevin Love and Luis Scola were considered as the 9th best Power Forward in the NBA by 27 of you, scares the **** out of me.

Lma is good, but with all the injuries to Por he was the only one really who was healthy and he should've put up better numbers than he did...He has the potential to be a 20+ 10 reb guy, but all he wants to do is shoot jumpers..he's too soft..

Sadds The Gr8
09-04-2010, 12:13 PM
These polls seriously just get worse every time. How in the hell is David Lee or Zach Randolph better than LMA? The fact that Kevin Love and Luis Scola were considered as the 9th best Power Forward in the NBA by 27 of you, scares the **** out of me.

LMA is so overrated. All he does is jack midrange shots. He's not versatile on offense, and he's a weakass rebounder for a near 7 footer.

Antipod
09-04-2010, 02:18 PM
It is still close :)
Both Lee and Zach played for Knicks, both put great numbers, but no wins. Stats or wins? "Hard" one ...

MiamiWadeCounty
09-04-2010, 06:44 PM
i like lee over josh smith and kg if were talkin about going into this season

SupeUnagi
09-04-2010, 07:33 PM
carlos boozer over josh smith???

Hustlenomics
09-04-2010, 09:02 PM
where is #10?