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View Full Version : NO, you're not a Point Guard.



dnewguy
09-02-2010, 12:29 PM
What NBA players call themselves PG but are more interested in scoring than passing?

I came up with this tread after watching Rose playing with many talented scorers yet he seems to always have 1 assist every game while taking atleast 6 shots in 22 mins. There are other players such as TJ Ford, Brandon Jennings that always look to score more than pass. Imagine Jason Kidd on the U.S squad, he always seem to get everyone going and never thinks of himself to score, isn't that the meaning of a pg? Or has the PG role changed overtime?


Which players do you think are calling themselves pg's but actually are a combo guard at best.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Derrick Rose is the first name that comes to my head

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 12:32 PM
hopefully this stays positive...

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 12:33 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

Baller1
09-02-2010, 12:33 PM
This thread might as well be dedicated to me.

I don't even need to answer directly.

Baller1
09-02-2010, 12:34 PM
hopefully this stays positive...

The chances of that are slim to none in m opinion.

stejay
09-02-2010, 12:35 PM
This thread will turn into a Rondo vs Rose thread in about 10 minutes I say....

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 12:36 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

Jason Kidd?

stejay
09-02-2010, 12:37 PM
Jason Kidd?

I think Chris Paul would be very offended by that statement as well as Kidd

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 12:37 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

New Orleans and Utah have point guards if I remember correctly

b_russ
09-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Mo Williams

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 12:39 PM
CP3, Rondo, Nash, Collison, Flynn, etc. There a bunch of PG's that arent capable of scoring like Rose and excel at setting up the offense. Both types add a lot to their teams imo.

stejay
09-02-2010, 12:39 PM
1. Paul
2. Williams


3. Everyone else

You missed the two best by a distance..... :facepalm:

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 12:39 PM
Rondo is a pure point guard something rose is not

JerzeyFresh
09-02-2010, 12:40 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

Chris Paul?
Deron Williams?
Jason Kidd?
Tony Parker?
Chauncey Billups?

Just to name a few.

blams
09-02-2010, 12:40 PM
No, you're wrong.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3456
Listed to the right of Rose's name is his position.
It reads: PG.

PG stands for point guard.

It doesn't matter what your opinion on what a PG should do is.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 12:40 PM
Rondo is a pure point guard something rose is not

If Rondo attempted to be a high scoring PG, he would be on the bench though

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 12:41 PM
Rondo is a pure point guard something rose is not

true, but Rose is a scoring machine from the PG position, something Rondo is not. Rondo does run a better offense.

edit: OP is a Heat fan, correct? not sure since he starts a lot of DRose tinged threads.

stejay
09-02-2010, 12:42 PM
Assists you can add to your game.... you are either a good shooter, or your not. Thats just natural. Rose has time to add assists to his game

VinceCarter
09-02-2010, 12:42 PM
If you watch Devin Harris he sets his team up pretty well. I'm not quite sure if he is more of a scorer PG or a "true" PG. He might score a lot from driving but he sets up the offense by driving the lane.

Opinions?

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 12:43 PM
New Orleans and Utah have point guards if I remember correctly

sorry guys u are right, i typed it fast not thinking im at work and got a call..... to correct myself, rondo, nash, paul, deron and kidd

dnewguy
09-02-2010, 12:43 PM
CP3, Rondo, Nash, Collison, Flynn, etc. There a bunch of PG's that arent capable of scoring like Rose and excel at setting up the offense. Both types add a lot to their teams imo.

Good perspective, so you're saying there are two kinds of point guards? I have always envisioned the pg position as similar to the quarterback position in football.....they're supposed to distribute the ball but then, they have quarterbacks in football like Vick who prefers to run rather than pass, but that is traditionally not their role.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 12:44 PM
true, but Rose is a scoring machine from the PG position, something Rondo is not. Rondo does run a better offense.

edit: OP is a Heat fan, correct? not sure since he starts a lot of DRose tinged threads.

Rondo sure went scoring machine on rose in the playoffs the other year :laugh2: he could obv score well he just chooses not to because he plays his position too well..chicago should get a point guard and move rose to SG

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 12:44 PM
No, you're wrong.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3456
Listed to the right of Rose's name is his position.
It reads: PG.

PG stands for point guard.

It doesn't matter what your opinion on what a PG should do is.

its not an opinion.... thats a PGs job...

tcav701
09-02-2010, 12:46 PM
Staring PGS that are shoot fist:

Rose
Baron Davis
Jennings
Mo Williams

There are other PGs that can score, but they will still give you 8-10 assists which is a true PGs main role.

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Good perspective, so you're saying there are two kinds of point guards? I have always envisioned the pg position as similar to the quarterback position in football.....they're supposed to distribute the ball but then, they have quarterbacks in football like Vick who prefers to run rather than pass, but that is traditionally not their role.

your seeing a shift in PG duties and capabilities now because of all the hand check rules. PG's are now able to use their athleticism to break down a defense since there's more room and less tight defending at the top of the key. So now you're seeing guys in college that are being bred to play that way, not just set up the O, but to also break down the D and decided to kick it, shoot it, or take it to the cup since there is now also a lack of quality big men standing there.

arkanian215
09-02-2010, 12:48 PM
If you watch Devin Harris he sets his team up pretty well. I'm not quite sure if he is more of a scorer PG or a "true" PG. He might score a lot from driving but he sets up the offense by driving the lane.

Opinions?

He's more of a scorer. That said, I checked the stats...

Top 20 players with the highest ast% (estimate of the percentage of teammates' field goals the player has assisted on while he's on the floor)


Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Rajon Rondo
LeBron James
Baron Davis
Russell Westbrook
Jason Kidd
Dwyane Wade
Devin Harris
Tony Parker
Andre Miller
Derrick Rose
Brandon Jennings
Raymond Felton
Chauncey Billups
Tyreke Evans
Chris Duhon
Aaron Brooks
Mo Williams

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=ast_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=41&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=30&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ast_pct
2008-9


Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Jose Calderon
Dwyane Wade
Tony Parker
Rajon Rondo
Baron Davis
LeBron James
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Jameer Nelson
Raymond Felton
Andre Miller
Chauncey Billups
Derrick Rose
Chris Duhon
T.J. Ford
Russell Westbrook
Rafer Alston
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2009&year_max=2009&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=ast_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=41&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=30&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ast_pct

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 12:49 PM
Staring PGS that are shoot fist:

Rose
Baron Davis
Jennings
Mo Williams

There are other PGs that can score, but they will still give you 8-10 assists which is a true PGs main role.

there role on each team is dictated by their coach. I love how you guys on here bash Rose cuz he does what is asked of him.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 12:51 PM
there role on each team is dictated by their coach. I love how you guys on here bash Rose cuz he does what is asked of him.

I cant tell you his role and I'm not bashing his scoring ability. But even on the FIBA team he is unwilling to pass. This leads me to believe it is more his mentality than his role.

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 12:52 PM
there role on each team is dictated by their coach. I love how you guys on here bash Rose cuz he does what is asked of him.

i dont think people are bashing him that much, just saying hes more of a 2 than a 1 in the style that he plays.... nothing wrong with it if thats whats being asked of him.... just not a true 1

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 12:52 PM
Rondo is a pure point guard something rose is notAnd?

Rose is a very willing passer, even to a fault. He's not hogging the ball in FIBA, and he's also not getting a lot of assists. Just because his assists are low does not mean he's taking a lot of shots and/or not passing.


User "coldfish" from ****** made some good points:


Obviously, all over ******, you have different player comparisons. Wade versus Kobe, MJ and Kobe, Rose and Rondo, Francis and Marbury, etc. We also have lots of different descriptions of guards as being "ball dominant", "pass first", "combo guards", etc. A lot of those discussions take place within the framework of the traditional PG / SG positions. IMO, that doesn't do the system justice and doesn't allow for good comparisons. I suggest that there is a third type of guard. I'll call it an "A" guard. This concept isn't really new as its touched on a lot.

I'll define it based on roles on offense:
PG - A guard who the offense is run through, but looks to pass first. Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Brevin Knight, etc.
SG - A guard who does not have the offense run through them, but when they get the ball, they look to score first. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, etc.
AG - A guard who the offense is run through, who looks to score first. Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Francis, Marbury, Crawford, etc.

People are familiar with the concept of an A guard. However, in some circumstances an AG carries a negative connotation. This is usually when the AG has "PG" next to his name. I think that's a mistake. In general, guys like Francis and Marbury have the same role in the offense that a guy like Kobe or Wade has. The primary difference is that Kobe and Wade are simply much better at it. In making player comparisons, its a mistake to compare an AG to a PG or a SG. A PG is usually going to be better at tradional PG things than an AG, but that doesn't mean that he is automatically the better player or better for his team. Obviously many teams have been successful by running their offense through a score first guard.

One general rule of thumb is that a player's position is defined by who he guards. That may be true and is often how the different AG's over time have got their SG or PG designation. However, I don't think it really does the position justice.

Regardless, I think people should keep this in mind when trying to compare players. Its hard to compare the impact of an AG to a PG, much like its hard to compare the skills of a good PF to a good SG.

&


I post this now because people here are again freaking out because Derrick Rose doesn't play like Jason Kidd on team USA. To that I say: "So what?". Derrick isn't a pure traditional PG. He never will be. Comparing him to guys like Rondo or Kidd or even Nash is a huge mistake because of that. I think people freak out when this is brought up because as soon as you talk like this, the names that get brought up are guys like Arenas and Marbury and Francis.

Well, those guys are the bad versions of the "A" guard. The good versions are people like Wade and Jordan and Kobe. Step back and think about it. All three of those guys pass, but they have never been master set up people like Kidd or Paul. They draw double teams and make simple passes to open shooters and hope the guy makes it . . . like Derrick Rose. They also have the ability to get their shot any time they want to and are nearly unstoppable one on one . . . like Derrick Rose.

Personally, I think that the Bulls and anyone around the Bulls is doing Derrick a disservice by trying to pigeon hole him into the role of a set up type PG. He can be more than that. I have always thought that Derrick is more D Wade than C Paul and I feel more strongly about that now than before.Yes, everyone, we get it. Rose isn't Magic Johnson, Stockton, Nash, CP3, etc. He isn't a pure PG, and that's fine. He is an elite slasher/midrange shooter and has improved his 3 point shooting. He is a topflight offensive weapon who is willing to defer to his teammates, but can take over when necessary.

saintl2510
09-02-2010, 12:53 PM
Derrick Rose is the first name that comes to my head
he is a point guard he averaged about 6 ast last year

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 12:54 PM
I cant tell you his role and I'm not bashing his scoring ability. But even on the FIBA team he is unwilling to pass. This leads me to believe it is more his mentality than his role.

other than Durant (The Beast) and maybe EGord, its hard to judge any of these guys and what their doing on offense. everyone seems to be going one on one and trying to do things too fancy. I do blame a lot of it on them not being used of this type of zone D. Even Billups looks like he doesnt know how to run the O cuz theres no room anywhere, especially with no 3 second, guys can just camp down there.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 12:55 PM
i dont think people are bashing him that much, just saying hes more of a 2 than a 1 in the style that he plays.... nothing wrong with it if thats whats being asked of him.... just not a true 1

x2

I think the only reason he plays the 1 is because he wouldnt be able to defend opposing SGs. His skill set screams 2 gaurd.

EDIT: Look at DWade early is his career. He played alot of PG and was a scorer from the beggining. Get the Bulls a top notch passer, work on Rose's D and move him to the 2. Then they are a championship level squad.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 01:00 PM
And?

Rose is a very willing passer, even to a fault. He's not hogging the ball in FIBA, and he's also not getting a lot of assists. Just because his assists are low does not mean he's taking a lot of shots and/or not passing.



watch him this season he's just going to run into the lane head down and not pass the rock


he is a point guard he averaged about 6 ast last year

and plays 37 mpg.. he's looking to shoot first

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 01:02 PM
he is a point guard he averaged about 6 ast last yearAnd considering the utter garbage (offensively) he had to work with, that is a pretty good accomplishment lol. The Bulls finally have the low-post beast we've been missing for years, and we've got some capable (and more than capable, see: Kyle Korver) three point shooters. If he still averages 6 assists after this season, then by all means, hate on.

The fact of the matter is, Rondo has three hall of famers around him.

Nash had the best three point shooting team in the league and Amar'e.

Deron had some shooters (Okur, Korver, etc.) and Boozer.

Rose had... one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league, Taj Gibson, and Vinny's life-changing, mastermind offensive schemes.

*edit* And while the Thunder weren't exactly great at shooting (as a team) last year, Westbrook has the luxury of playing with Kevin ****ing Durant.

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
x2

I think the only reason he plays the 1 is because he wouldnt be able to defend opposing SGs. His skill set screams 2 gaurd.

EDIT: Look at DWade early is his career. He played alot of PG and was a scorer from the beggining. Get the Bulls a top notch passer, work on Rose's D and move him to the 2. Then they are a championship level squad.

this!

Gators123
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
And?

Rose is a very willing passer, even to a fault. He's not hogging the ball in FIBA, and he's also not getting a lot of assists. Just because his assists are low does not mean he's taking a lot of shots and/or not passing.


User "coldfish" from ****** made some good points:



&

Yes, everyone, we get it. Rose isn't Magic Johnson, Stockton, Nash, CP3, etc. He isn't a pure PG, and that's fine. He is an elite slasher/midrange shooter and has improved his 3 point shooting. He is a topflight offensive weapon who is willing to defer to his teammates, but can take over when necessary.

How do you know?

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
watch him this season he's just going to run into the lane head down and not pass the rock



and plays 37 mpg.. he's looking to shoot firstIt's not that he's looking to shoot first, it's that he had to shoot a lot. Look at our roster from last year.

Slimsim
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
Rose is this generation Allen Iverson

topdog
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
Point guards are the team leaders. They need to balance when it is prudent to pass and when to score - Nash is a great example of this. Some do look to much for their own offense though - gotta keep your guys involved.

llemon
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
If you watch Devin Harris he sets his team up pretty well. I'm not quite sure if he is more of a scorer PG or a "true" PG. He might score a lot from driving but he sets up the offense by driving the lane.

Opinions?

Disagree with Devin being a guy that sets up the offense. He does not have good court vision.

eugene
09-02-2010, 01:06 PM
Nash
Billups
Rondo
Kidd
and maybe Parker true PGs which firstly comes to my mind

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 01:06 PM
How do you know?He said so, and he appears confident about it. That's all I need to know, lol. And in FIBA, with his teammates almost never passing to him for three, and a lot of the threes not being set shots, he's shooting over 30% (33% last time I checked, but it went down because of the game today).

Baller1
09-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Rose is this generation Allen Iverson

AI was a better scorer though, probably one of the best scorers of all time. I'll give Rose another year though to really compare their overall games.

IndyRealist
09-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Derrick Rose is more of a combo guard or a shoot-first PG than a true PG. There's nothing wrong with that. Lots of teams have their best offensive player handle the ball and either score or make plays for other people. Lebron, Kobe, etc.

Derrick Rose is not TJ Ford, who is a black hole once he gets the ball and will dribble into triple teams.

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:07 PM
x2

I think the only reason he plays the 1 is because he wouldnt be able to defend opposing SGs. His skill set screams 2 gaurd.

EDIT: Look at DWade early is his career. He played alot of PG and was a scorer from the beggining. Get the Bulls a top notch passer, work on Rose's D and move him to the 2. Then they are a championship level squad.

why would we take a a guy that physically has an advantage against any other PG in the league with his handles (killer crossover), first step, strength, speed and quickness, and move him to the 2 where he loses those advantages? Us Bulls fans have watched the guy from day one and has seen him break down defenses all night and get teammates open looks, only to have them miss wide open. I have no doubt he raises his assists to at least 8 a game this year with Boozer on the squad and a great shooter in Korver.

llemon
09-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Nash
Billups
Rondo
Kidd
and maybe Parker true PGs which firstly comes to my mind

Not Parker

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:08 PM
He said so, and he appears confident about it. That's all I need to know, lol. And in FIBA, with his teammates almost never passing to him for three, and a lot of the threes not being set shots, he's shooting over 30% (33% last time I checked, but it went down because of the game today).

Read my last post and think about it.

You guys have the right to be critical of your players as you pay their salaries. Before the fans in Chicago call everyone haters, they should take a step back and at least weigh the possibility that hes not as good yet as you thnk he is.

unwantedplayer
09-02-2010, 01:08 PM
If Rondo attempted to be a high scoring PG, he would be on the bench though

Yeah, but he does not attempt to be a high scoring pg...

Baller1
09-02-2010, 01:10 PM
why would we take a a guy that physically has an advantage against any other PG in the league with his handles (killer crossover), first step, strength, speed and quickness, and move him to the 2 where he loses those advantages? Us Bulls fans have watched the guy from day one and has seen him break down defenses all night and get teammates open looks, only to have them miss wide open. I have no doubt he raises his assists to at least 8 a game this year with Boozer on the squad and a great shooter in Korver.

Because imagine a pass first PG feeding this guy the ball... His skill set would be more utilized as a SG as opposed to a PG.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 01:10 PM
The fact of the matter is, Rondo has three hall of famers around him.



yea to discredit Rondo its "he has three hall of famers around him"
but when slamming the celtics it's "they're too old"

Rondo is a playmaker Rose..not so much .. true point guards will find a way to make their teammates score no matter what the talent is


Rose is this generation Allen Iverson

Rose is Rose . Iverson is Iverson

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:10 PM
why would we take a a guy that physically has an advantage against any other PG in the league with his handles (killer crossover), first step, strength, speed and quickness, and move him to the 2 where he loses those advantages? Us Bulls fans have watched the guy from day one and has seen him break down defenses all night and get teammates open looks, only to have them miss wide open. I have no doubt he raises his assists to at least 8 a game this year with Boozer on the squad and a great shooter in Korver.

Because it puts his team at a disadvantage. Leaving him at the PG is making him something hes not. Dont get me wrong he can learn how to adapt and be a pass first scorer but don't you think leaving him at the 1 takes away from his natural talent?

saintl2510
09-02-2010, 01:12 PM
to me rose is more of a leader than rondo leading his team to the playoffs 2 years in a row and almost beating the celtics 2 years ago

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:12 PM
Yeah, but he does not attempt to be a high scoring pg...

because he cant shoot the ball good, and with PP and Ray Allen on the team he doesn't have to. All he has had to do the first few years in the league was learn how to set up his HOF teammates so hes ahead in that experience. Rose hasnt had that luxury and has had to burden the scoring load cuz, well hes great at it and we haven't had many other options. This year will be different with the guys we added.

saintl2510
09-02-2010, 01:12 PM
true that

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:13 PM
Because it puts his team at a disadvantage. Leaving him at the PG is making him something hes not. Dont get me wrong he can learn how to adapt and be a pass first scorer but don't you think leaving him at the 1 takes away from his natural talent?

not at all, the guy just averaged close to 25 points a game in the playoffs, all from the 1.

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 01:14 PM
yea to discredit Rondo its "he has three hall of famers around him"
but when slamming the celtics it's "they're too old"

Rondo is a playmaker Rose..not so much .. true point guards will find a way to make their teammates score no matter what the talent is They are old, but an aging trio of Allen/Pierce/Garnett >>>> whatever Rose had to work with offensively. Rondo is a better playmaker/passer than Rose, I'm not doubting that, but he did have more talent around him.

sep11ie
09-02-2010, 01:15 PM
White Chocolate!

Baller1
09-02-2010, 01:16 PM
Rose vs. Rondo. I knew it was inevitable.

Lloyd Christmas
09-02-2010, 01:17 PM
The first guy that comes to my mind is Gilbert Arenas. He looked to shoot everytime. The Wizards got lucky with Wall. Now Gilbert has to play SG.

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 01:17 PM
to me rose is more of a leader than rondo leading his team to the playoffs 2 years in a row and almost beating the celtics 2 years ago

?? did u not watch these last playoffs?

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:17 PM
We really need to just make a Derrick Rose/Rajon rondo sticky thread here in the NBA forum.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:18 PM
not at all, the guy just averaged close to 25 points a game in the playoffs, all from the 1.

And he didnt do enough to win in the playoffs. The tough thing about arguing with Bulls fans is you think we hate him because he's a Bull. I would like you to tell me when a PG won a championship as the first option.

He alienated his temates and though you say the talent level wasnt good enough around him, everyone that has recently left the Bulls has went on to be more efficient in their life after Rose.

DeShaun Brown
09-02-2010, 01:19 PM
This thread will turn into a Rondo vs Rose thread in about 10 minutes I say....

I hope not. That debate is old.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 01:19 PM
Derrick Rose.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 01:19 PM
to me rose is more of a leader than rondo leading his team to the playoffs 2 years in a row and almost beating the celtics 2 years ago

yet rose can't make it out the first round while rondo averaged TRIPLE DOUBLE against rose and took his team out the playoffs and averages more assists and has more of a voice on the court :laugh2:


They are old, but an aging trio of Allen/Pierce/Garnett >>>> whatever Rose had to work with offensively. Rondo is a better playmaker/passer than Rose, I'm not doubting that, but he did have more talent around him.

you're acting like rose's team is terrible he has pieces and now with boozer there should be no excuses right ;)

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:21 PM
And he didnt do enough to win in the playoffs. The tough thing about arguing with Bulls fans is you think we hate him because he's a Bull. I would like you to tell me when a PG won a championship as the first option.

He alienated his temates and though you say the talent level wasnt good enough around him, everyone that has recently left the Bulls has went on to be more efficient in their life after Rose.

Ben Gordon was more efficient? thats really the only major piece from a Rose led team that left.

IndyRealist
09-02-2010, 01:22 PM
This thread really shouldn't have anything to do with Rondo. He's a pass-first PG, everyone knows it.

DeShaun Brown
09-02-2010, 01:22 PM
Damn I guess it's too late. This has turned into a Rose/Rondo thread. I'm out. :facepalm:

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:23 PM
yet rose can't make it out the first round while rondo averaged TRIPLE DOUBLE against rose and took his team out the playoffs and averages more assists and has more of a voice on the court :laugh2:



you're acting like rose's team is terrible he has pieces and now with boozer there should be no excuses right ;)

Its his 3rd year and he now has the teammates and experience. If the aspects of his game that are usually bashed (D, facilitating the O, etc) are not improved there will be no excuses. But i have no doubt he will keep improving.

Gators123
09-02-2010, 01:24 PM
Ben Gordon was more efficient? thats really the only major piece from a Rose led team that left.

Ben Gordon was injured. I don't know why Bull fans always bring last year up. He missed more games last year than he has in his other 5 years combined.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Ben Gordon was more efficient? thats really the only major piece from a Rose led team that left.

Gordon was about the same but he creates his own shots so thats not the best example.

Salmons couldnt get a good look in Chicago he went to the Bucks and was alot better.

Hinrich has always been a solid player and was looked at late in the shot clock and was forced to throw up alot more bad shots than hes used to. I imagine he will be a solid player in Washington.

Tyrus Thomas is getting better looks in Charlotte.

Do you disagree with any of these?

DisturbedFTW83
09-02-2010, 01:27 PM
Good perspective, so you're saying there are two kinds of point guards? I have always envisioned the pg position as similar to the quarterback position in football.....they're supposed to distribute the ball but then, they have quarterbacks in football like Vick who prefers to run rather than pass, but that is traditionally not their role.

i agree, there are so many ways a POINT guard can be used. Pass first and then shoot? Okay with me. Shoot first then pass? Okay too. He's the point of attack, everything starts with him. He decides, he's the coach on the floor.

A QB will get the call but it's up to him to decide what it is the defense is giving him. That's what audible's offer. Give any QB a lane to run while their WR's are covered, he'll run. Now, Allen Iverson is a definition of a combo guard. Small guy that can take up the ball, and ISO, then score. Not even pretending to pass the ball. Not many point guards I can think of do that.

They're not ball-hogs. They're just damn good.

Enough with my rambling, I'm just saying, if a point guard is asked to score first and pass after because his teammates aren't good enough to get it done, then so be it. He brings up the ball, sets up plays and scores it himself is a point guard in my eyes.

Good point on the football relation.

Chicagofaithful
09-02-2010, 01:29 PM
assists arent the only thing that defines a pg, ball handling, running an offense come to mind.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:31 PM
assists arent the only thing that defines a pg, ball handling, running an offense come to mind.

Which is all best determined by the AST/TO ratio.

Oefarmy2005
09-02-2010, 01:31 PM
I don't care if Rose is a PG or not. I will take him over any other so called PG other than Paul and Williams. Rondo is an honorable mention, but I'd rather have Rose personally.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:31 PM
i agree, there are so many ways a POINT guard can be used. Pass first and then shoot? Okay with me. Shoot first then pass? Okay too. He's the point of attack, everything starts with him. He decides, he's the coach on the floor.

A QB will get the call but it's up to him to decide what it is the defense is giving him. That's what audible's offer. Give any QB a lane to run while their WR's are covered, he'll run. Now, Allen Iverson is a definition of a combo guard. Small guy that can take up the ball, and ISO, then score. Not even pretending to pass the ball. Not many point guards I can think of do that.

They're not ball-hogs. They're just damn good.

Enough with my rambling, I'm just saying, if a point guard is asked to score first and pass after because his teammates aren't good enough to get it done, then so be it. He brings up the ball, sets up plays and scores it himself is a point guard in my eyes.

Good point on the football relation.

So would you rather have Peyton Manning or Vince Young?

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:32 PM
Gordon was about the same but he creates his own shots so thats not the best example.

Salmons couldnt get a good look in Chicago he went to the Bucks and was alot better.

Hinrich has always been a solid player and was looked at late in the shot clock and was forced to throw up alot more bad shots than hes used to. I imagine he will be a solid player in Washington.

Tyrus Thomas is getting better looks in Charlotte.

Do you disagree with any of these?

Hinirch and Salmons had a LOT of open looks this past year when both were on the Bulls. Neither could hit open looks, seen it with my own eyes. Rose had nothing to do with their bad shooting.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 01:33 PM
I don't care if Rose is a PG or not. I will take him over any other so called PG other than Paul and Williams. Rondo is an honorable mention, but I'd rather have Rose personally.

that's absolutely fine if you're trying to have a first round exit

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:35 PM
that's absolutely fine if you're trying to have a first round exit

Everyone is actually being civil with each other and seems like we're having a good conversation. Dont start sending shots.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:38 PM
Hinirch and Salmons had a LOT of open looks this past year when both were on the Bulls. Neither could hit open looks, seen it with my own eyes. Rose had nothing to do with their bad shooting.

Though I cant prove it statistically, only from experience, when you have a shot first ball handler you clear out and watch. When you play with a distributor you come off screens and you are ready for the ball.

What I can prove is Salmons was a better player after leaving and a betting man would guess the same for Hinrich.

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Though I cant prove it statistically, only from experience, when you have a shot first ball handler you clear out and watch. When you play with a distributor you come off screens and you are ready for the ball.

What I can prove is Salmons was a better player after leaving and a betting man would guess the same for Hinrich.

As much as people on here think the Bulls dont run sets, they do. Explain then how Salmons adn Hinrich both had great playoffs the year before against the C's, all while playing with Rose at the 1? I promise you they just didnt shoot well last year. Had nothing to do with not having the looks, Rose got everyone open looks.

SANTHI
09-02-2010, 01:43 PM
Rose plays PG, can run it, and can help a basketball team win games running PG. Only reason Bulls haven't been past the 1st round yet is because of the lack of help Rose HAD. Bulls will do great with Rose running PG this season, and he'll get more assists.

I never heard anybody saying Rasheed wasn't a PF because he was actually good at shooting 3's. and SF's like Lebron, Pierce, Turkoglu, etc. aren't SF's because they can actually take over a PG's role. There's also SG's out there who aren't the best scorers, but great defenders.

The game has changed, and you're gonna see different positions contribute to the team in different ways, especially with this new batch of young PG's who are in the league, and on their way to the league.

edit

- BUT, if Rose learned to play better defense and was able to guard SG's, the Bulls would be pretty sick to slide him down to the 2 and pick up a good traditional PG

awmathewsjr
09-02-2010, 01:46 PM
This thread will turn into a Rondo vs Rose thread in about 10 minutes I say....

I agree. I like both of them, so i think i'll leave this thread alone before I find myself arguing with a homer or a hater.

ho_va2006
09-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Derrick Rose has been playing with inadequated shooters and no post scoring threat to speak of. He has been forced to play this role of shooter, just watch the playoff games!!! When you mention a guy like Rhondo, who is a good point guard, he is surrounded by scoring threats. I think with the addition of Boozer in particular you will see quite a jump in his assists. Anyway, I'll take a lightning quick point guard who averages 20ppg and 6ast... as will Coach K!

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 01:47 PM
Rose plays PG, can run it, and can help a basketball team win games running PG. Only reason Bulls haven't been past the 1st round yet is because of the lack of help Rose has. Bulls will do great with Rose running PG this season, and he'll get more assists.

I never heard anybody saying Rasheed wasn't a PF because he was actually good at shooting 3's. and SF's like Lebron, Pierce, Turkoglu, etc. aren't SF's because they can actually take over a PG's role. There's also SG's out there who aren't the best scorers, but great defenders.

The game has changed, and you're gonna see different positions contribute to the team in different ways, especially with this new batch of young PG's who are in the league, and on their way to the league.

those examples arnt relivent.... its not like rose is a ture PG that happens to be able to score.... hes a scorer first, sheed is a PF that happens to be able to shoot a 3, and lebron isnt a ture SF either, rose is a PG, just not a true PG

YoungOne
09-02-2010, 01:49 PM
CP3, Rondo, Nash, Collison, Flynn, etc. There a bunch of PG's that arent capable of scoring like Rose and excel at setting up the offense. Both types add a lot to their teams imo.

Flynn is more of a scoring pg aswell

tcav701
09-02-2010, 01:50 PM
School is about to let out and there will be way to many Bull fans soon so I will take my leave.

But my last words will be this, very few PSDers that are not Bulls fans think the Bulls are championship caliber with Rose at the 1. Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Arenas, Wade, Tyreke, Jamal Crawford, Larry Hughes, Brandon Roy and I can go on have all spent time at the 1 while being a 2. That being said, these players have been or would be more productive at SG. When some educated sports fans are telling you the Bulls are championship caliber with Rose at the 2 you may want to consider the idea. None of us are coaches or GM's but most of us have seen what types of players belong where to put a winning team on the floor.

I am not hating on Rose, I just feel he is bein crafted into something he's not and his cieling will be lower because of it.

bears88
09-02-2010, 01:50 PM
hopefully this stays positive...

yea I agree for some reason this topic is going to make some Bulls fans angry, but as a Bulls fan I am oky with it because everybody has the right to their opinion as long as its not negative.

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 01:53 PM
yea I agree for some reason this topic is going to make some Bulls fans angry, but as a Bulls fan I am oky with it because everybody has the right to their opinion as long as its not negative.

bulls suck! lol jk

effen5
09-02-2010, 01:53 PM
As much as people on here think the Bulls dont run sets, they do. Explain then how Salmons adn Hinrich both had great playoffs the year before against the C's, all while playing with Rose at the 1? I promise you they just didnt shoot well last year. Had nothing to do with not having the looks, Rose got everyone open looks.


fkn Win right here.

This is exactly what happened last year. Salmons, Hinrich, Tyrus, they all had poor seasons last year shooting wise.

Rose gave them nothing but open shots in the first half of the season and unfortunately they couldn't knock down a shot to save their life.

Salmons when got traded got some kind of confidence boost and starting shooting well probably the same boost he got when he was traded to the Bulls last year. It would not shock me of Salmons struggles next year.

Hinrich had NOTHING but open shots last year and couldn't knock down a damn shot. And when he actually got to knock down a shot we actually won a playoff game.

Salmons last 5 games before getting traded

vs Magic (Rose getting hurt after first few minutes of games) 4/11
vs Pacers 7/10
vs Heat 5/13
vs Hawks 2/7
vs Philly 5/10

Salmons was nothing but inconsistent last year for the Bulls and Hinrich can't shoot to save his life. When nobody else could knock down a shot, Rose had to take over which is why people now think he is a shooting first PG....

bears88
09-02-2010, 01:54 PM
bulls suck! lol jk

lol good sense of humor lol

BkOriginalOne
09-02-2010, 01:57 PM
REAL NBA Point Guards, capable of being a PG on a championship team.

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups

Honorable Mentions
Ty Lawson
Darren Collinson
Stephen Curry (If he gets a better coach than Don Nelson)
Brandon Jennings (Has all the skills to average plus 10 dimes, he needs to play with a better finisher. Amare would be perfect.

bears88
09-02-2010, 02:01 PM
I don't think it's wrong if Rose is a scoring first PG. Hell I heard from some people that he is a Alan Iverson Version 2.0 and you know how good he was back in his younger days in the nba.

mikantsass
09-02-2010, 02:02 PM
REAL NBA Point Guards, capable of being a PG on a championship team.

Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Jason Kidd
Chauncey Billups

Honorable Mentions
Ty Lawson
Darren Collinson
Stephen Curry (If he gets a better coach than Don Nelson)
Brandon Jennings (Has all the skills to average plus 10 dimes, he needs to play with a better finisher. Amare would be perfect.


No Tony Parker? And its way too early to tell about Lawson and Collison

Stunner
09-02-2010, 02:06 PM
dnewguy is always on Derrick Rose ****! smh

ChiSox219
09-02-2010, 02:07 PM
What NBA players call themselves PG but are more interested in scoring than passing?

I came up with this tread after watching Rose playing with many talented scorers yet he seems to always have 1 assist every game while taking atleast 6 shots in 22 mins. There are other players such as TJ Ford, Brandon Jennings that always look to score more than pass. Imagine Jason Kidd on the U.S squad, he always seem to get everyone going and never thinks of himself to score, isn't that the meaning of a pg? Or has the PG role changed overtime?


Which players do you think are calling themselves pg's but actually are a combo guard at best.

Rose is shooting 58.1%, why wouldn't you want him to take shots? In fact, he should be attacking more (not just in FIBA but during this upcoming NBA season).

I get that Heat fans are sour over Beasley being a bust while Rose is on his way to super-stardom. But c'mon, you guys have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...just move on.

DaBUU
09-02-2010, 02:08 PM
Rose is shooting 58.1%, why wouldn't you want him to take shots? In fact, he should be attacking more (not just in FIBA but during this upcoming NBA season).

I get that Heat fans are sour over Beasley being a bust while Rose is on his way to super-stardom. But c'mon, you guys have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...just move on.

:hi5:

Stunner
09-02-2010, 02:11 PM
People really dont knw Derrick Rose he really wants to pass first but team ask him to score more because thats what the team needs. If Rose was on a team where he didnt need to handle alot of the offense in terms of scoring and passed more he would be around 8 assist a game.

WeBallin
09-02-2010, 02:12 PM
Havin Played PG back in da day, A True PG is one that can 1) get you in your offense.2) Be able to get everyone involved 3) Be able to get your own shot off of quality...... So in my opinion the one who does this best an i'm only leavin CP3 out of bein first is he was out linjured last year

1) Nash
2) Derron Williams
3)Rando
4)CP3
5) kidd

ROY 2 MVP Braun
09-02-2010, 02:13 PM
bulls suck! lol jk

idk what your "lol'ing" about ur sig is true my friend:facepalm:

ROY 2 MVP Braun
09-02-2010, 02:14 PM
so is mine and thats something to lol about

DitchDat
09-02-2010, 02:15 PM
This has Gilbert Arenas written all over it

also Allen Iverson is not a PG and I hear a lot of people saying Eddie House is a point man too, which he is NOT

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 02:16 PM
Rose is shooting 58.1%, why wouldn't you want him to take shots? In fact, he should be attacking more (not just in FIBA but during this upcoming NBA season).

I get that Heat fans are sour over Beasley being a bust while Rose is on his way to super-stardom. But c'mon, you guys have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh...just move on.

why dont u bull fans understand.... no one is saying they want rose to take less shots.... the point of this thread and what were trying to ague is that rose in not a TRUE PG, not that he should become one, and i moved on about beasly and rose since july 8th :)

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 02:17 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

dont forget cp3, and watch out for andy rautins on the knicks. p.s i agree with this thread. derrick rose is a score first player.

Da Knicks
09-02-2010, 02:17 PM
Very true most point guards look to score but sometimes its because the defense leaves them wide open. Most of the young point guards are slashers and need to work on other aspects of the game.

RaJAxTWa
09-02-2010, 02:17 PM
rondo and nash are the only PG's in the NBA

westbrook and deron williams

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 02:18 PM
so is mine and thats something to lol about

ok?

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 02:19 PM
dont forget cp3, and watch out for andy rautins on the knicks. p.s i agree with this thread. derrick rose is a score first player.

yea i know i wrote a new post adding him in

j-bay
09-02-2010, 02:19 PM
wall will be a true pg some day maybe next year

effen5
09-02-2010, 02:22 PM
why dont u bull fans understand.... no one is saying they want rose to take less shots.... the point of this thread and what were trying to ague is that rose in not a TRUE PG, not that he should become one, and i moved on about beasly and rose since july 8th :)

How would you define true PG? A player that runs the team, makes the team better, gives players open shots?

ChiSox219
09-02-2010, 02:24 PM
why dont u bull fans understand.... no one is saying they want rose to take less shots.... the point of this thread and what were trying to ague is that rose in not a TRUE PG, not that he should become one, and i moved on about beasly and rose since july 8th :)

That's nonsense. Just because Rose doesn't follow your definition of PG doesn't mean he isn't one.

This whole thing about labels is funny, it's like the girl that absolutely must know whether you are boyfriend and girlfriend. Get out of here with that, Lebron is and always has been a PG, yet everyone calls him an SF.

Rose is 21 about to enter his third year. This is the stage where most young PGs start to develop more advanced skills. Hopefully Rose will improve with more talent around him and a real offensive system, add in the Team USA experience and he should have a great season.


Most of you guys don't even understand what a PG's role is. The sole offensive role of a PG is to create good shots. Rose is more capable of creating good shots for himself than say a Jason Kidd, but Kidd creates good shots for teammates. In the end both are creating offense and that's their job.

barreleffact
09-02-2010, 02:24 PM
Assists you can add to your game.... you are either a good shooter, or your not. Thats just natural. Rose has time to add assists to his game

then by your own description rose will never be a shooter either. better than rondo, yes, but a great shooter? no. rose can score. he still has to prove to me that he can shoot. huge difference. and show me one guy who has had the label of selfish or score first that has added a considerable amount of assists to his game

Korman12
09-02-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm not gonna get into the whole Rose thing.

Mo Williams
Jameer Nelson
DJ Augustin
Devin Harris
Aaron Brooks

A couple guys with high FGA Per 36 minutes and low-ish Ast's

I'm basing a few of these guys purely on statistics, not how well they set up the offense and flow.

silvio
09-02-2010, 02:31 PM
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Jose Calderon
Tony Parker
Rajon Rondo
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Jameer Nelson
Raymond Felton
Chauncey Billups
D. Rose

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 02:32 PM
then by your own description rose will never be a shooter either. better than rondo, yes, but a great shooter? no. rose can score. he still has to prove to me that he can shoot. huge difference. and show me one guy who has had the label of selfish or score first that has added a considerable amount of assists to his game*Cliche-ly blows coffee all over screen*

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 02:33 PM
That's nonsense. Just because Rose doesn't follow your definition of PG doesn't mean he isn't one.

This whole thing about labels is funny, it's like the girl that absolutely must know whether you are boyfriend and girlfriend. Get out of here with that, Lebron is and always has been a PG, yet everyone calls him an SF.

Rose is 21 about to enter his third year. This is the stage where most young PGs start to develop more advanced skills. Hopefully Rose will improve with more talent around him and a real offensive system, add in the Team USA experience and he should have a great season.


Most of you guys don't even understand what a PG's role is. The sole offensive role of a PG is to create good shots. Rose is more capable of creating good shots for himself than say a Jason Kidd, but Kidd creates good shots for teammates. In the end both are creating offense and that's their job.

Point guard (PG), also called the play maker or "the ball-handler", is one of the standard positions in a regulation basketball game. A point guard has perhaps the most specialized role of any position – essentially, they are expected to run the team's offense by controlling the ball and making sure that it gets to the right players at the right time. Above all, the point guard must totally understand and accept his or her coach's game plan; in this way, the position can be compared to a quarterback in American football.


the only part of this that says Rose is understanding the coaches game plan.... so rose isnt a TRUE PG like ive said but u dont seem to want to admit, im not saying its wrong, im just saying rose doesnt do what nash, rondo, and CP3 do

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 02:39 PM
How would you define true PG? A player that runs the team, makes the team better, gives players open shots?

a guy that puts passing and creating over scoring.... lets compare to football for a sec, true QB: manning, his only focus is to pass the ball and create oppurtunities for his team mates to score, hes not running for TD, hes not lining up to the right as a WR
not TRUE (i put true in caps cuz hes still a QB just not a TRUE one) QB: vick, rather score him self than do his job and pass, not saying that its wrong, dont fix it if its not broken (in roses case) just saying hes not the TRUE PG like nash or paul or rondo

Giants88
09-02-2010, 02:42 PM
Not in the League anymore but MARBURY!!!!

Draco
09-02-2010, 03:56 PM
why dont u bull fans understand.... no one is saying they want rose to take less shots.... the point of this thread and what were trying to ague is that rose in not a TRUE PG, not that he should become one, and i moved on about beasly and rose since july 8th :)

You're right. That is the point of this thread but that's not what the thread title is about.

Draco
09-02-2010, 03:58 PM
If Rondo was really that critical to Team USA he'd still be on the team. Coach K thought differently.

dnewguy
09-02-2010, 04:01 PM
You're right. That is the point of this thread but that's not what the thread title is about.

The point of the thread is the PG misconception in the league. If Rose or any other PG is not a pure point, it does not take away from their ability as a combo-guard. The primary reason for this thread is to discuss players called Point Guards that are actually not, that doesn't mean their team is less effective with them. In Rose's case, he is the perfect fit for that team, he scores when they need it most because he understands that he is the best scorer on the team, but Nash will look to pass in most cases.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 04:06 PM
If Rondo was really that critical to Team USA he'd still be on the team. Coach K thought differently.

Rondo requested to leave the team..use your brain man

HakeemTheDream
09-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Rondo requested to leave the team..use your brain man

Rondo said he felt he was on the bubble/he was going to be cut anyway, get off his nuts

Ware_Spencer
09-02-2010, 04:15 PM
Mo Williams: Score First
Jameer Nelson: Score First
Mike Bibby: Score First
Rondo: Pass First
Chalmers/Arroyo: Score First
Brandon Jennings: Score First
Livingston: ?? Tough to say
Rose: Score First
Calderon: Pass First
Jarret Jack: Score First
Darren Collison: Pass first but is streaky
Raymond Felton: Score First
Stuckey: Score First
John Wall: He could be pass first but too early to choose. My prediction is score first
Devin Harris: Score First
Holiday: Tweener but I would say pass first as of right now.

Derek Fisher: Score First (its suppose to be his role though. Spot up shooter)
Jason Kidd: Pass First
Nash: Pass First
Billups: Score First
D-Will: Pass First
Andre Miller: Score First (used to be pass first a long time ago)
Tony Parker: Score First
Westbrook: Score First (Could change)
Brooks: Score First
Mike Conley: Score first (Its his role. They run the offense through Mayo and Gay)
Chris Paul: Pass First
Baron Davis: Score First
Stephen Curry: Score first but he is becoming more and more like a pass first.
Tyreke Evans: Score First
Flynn: Score First

I know you homers are going to attack me because your favorite player isn't listed as a pass first point guard. But the fact is if they look to score more than they look to pass than they are score first. Pass first is rare.
It does not mean they are bad players but it does mean they don't allow as much ball movement for there teams. Sometimes anyways. Some guys are not suppose to dribble much or set up the offense. So sometimes the offense limits them to be just a spot up shooter (Like derek Fisher or Mike Conley etc).

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 04:15 PM
Rondo requested to leave the team..use your brain man

lol he quit because he was going to get cut anyways. You really shouldn't be the one telling people to use their brain.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:17 PM
Rondo requested to leave the team..use your brain man

Yeah... he also thought he was "on the bubble"

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 04:18 PM
This thread is terrible. A bunch of people on the Internet telling NBA point gaurds what their job is or what they should be doing is a joke.

Their role is dictated by their coach.

mikealike305
09-02-2010, 04:19 PM
Rondo requested to leave the team..use your brain man

every post ive read of your u are always saying crap, just stop

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:19 PM
What good is being a "true PG" if you have a rep for not being able to put together 4 consistent quarters of basketball...

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 04:22 PM
Rondo said he felt he was on the bubble/he was going to be cut anyway, get off his nuts

says the guy who's on Lebrons nuts harder than his girlfriend is

“He’s unconventionally become an NBA champion and a triple-double guy in this league,’’ Krzyzewski said of Rondo. “The thing that Rondo does is he plays with a will to win, and he just finds ways to have a positive impact on the game. You know, I really like that about him. I thought I developed a really good relationship with him during the week, and his pressure on the ball, defense. But his will to win is something that I truly admire, and we need that.

“Plus, he’s a little bit older — not in age as much — but with experience, because the Celtics have gone so deep and have won one of the recent NBA championships. So, I think we’re very fortunate to have him.’’

and coach k said he hopes rondo can try out for the 2012 team even with coach k saying himself that rondo requested to leave and he really loves his game you guys still say he was sure to get cut lmao :facepalm::facepalm:

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 04:25 PM
says the guy who's on Lebrons nuts harder than his girlfriend is

“He’s unconventionally become an NBA champion and a triple-double guy in this league,’’ Krzyzewski said of Rondo. “The thing that Rondo does is he plays with a will to win, and he just finds ways to have a positive impact on the game. You know, I really like that about him. I thought I developed a really good relationship with him during the week, and his pressure on the ball, defense. But his will to win is something that I truly admire, and we need that.

“Plus, he’s a little bit older — not in age as much — but with experience, because the Celtics have gone so deep and have won one of the recent NBA championships. So, I think we’re very fortunate to have him.’’

and coach k said he hopes rondo can try out for the 2012 team even with coach k saying himself that rondo requested to leave and he really loves his game you guys still say he was sure to get cut lmao :facepalm::facepalm:

Has coach K said anything negative about anyone?

And how many minutes did Rondo log against Spain?

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 04:25 PM
If Rondo attempted to be a high scoring PG, he would be on the bench though

he doesnt attempt, he does whats needed of him.. so i'm not sure exactly what point your trying to make.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:26 PM
says the guy who's on Lebrons nuts harder than his girlfriend is

“He’s unconventionally become an NBA champion and a triple-double guy in this league,’’ Krzyzewski said of Rondo. “The thing that Rondo does is he plays with a will to win, and he just finds ways to have a positive impact on the game. You know, I really like that about him. I thought I developed a really good relationship with him during the week, and his pressure on the ball, defense. But his will to win is something that I truly admire, and we need that.

“Plus, he’s a little bit older — not in age as much — but with experience, because the Celtics have gone so deep and have won one of the recent NBA championships. So, I think we’re very fortunate to have him.’’

and coach k said he hopes rondo can try out for the 2012 team even with coach k saying himself that rondo requested to leave and he really loves his game you guys still say he was sure to get cut lmao :facepalm::facepalm:

And here's what Coach K said indirectly...


As well as starting Rose over Rondo, Krzyzewski also went with Odom at center in place of Tyson Chandler.

“Coach told the team this morning that he was going to try some other players, change the lineup,” Colangelo told ESPN.com. “We’ve been off to some bad starts in our three games, and so he went with a different lineup, and he said some guys might not play today. And that’s how it played out. I don’t think anything is significant. I don’t know what we’ll do in the game against Greece, but we’re still trying to determine who we are and how we’re going to play, so that was just for today, what he chose to do.”
http://celticshub.com/2010/08/23/figuring-out-rondos-dnp-vs-spain/

bbcmillionaire
09-02-2010, 04:28 PM
Haha this sounds like a baiting thread against us bulls fans, how could you take the team USA games as an example? In that case maybe Kevin durant will average under 20ppg this season(sarcasm don't kill me kd fans I like that bball player too). The first post seems kinda misguided, so I expect misguided arguments. Name me 2 natural scorers the bulls had on their team(Ben gordon is the only one). The teams Derrick rose has played on demanded him to score 1st then facilitate. Let's wait to see what rose does with a low post scorer before we take the pg title away from him

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 04:28 PM
Not in the League anymore but MARBURY!!!!

i have said this before and been bashed for it, i think rose will have a similar career to marbury. marbury was a very promising score first PG when he came into the league. he had very high expectations that he could not live up to and eventually became labeled cancer. he never made his teammates better.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 04:31 PM
And here's what Coach K said indirectly...


http://celticshub.com/2010/08/23/figuring-out-rondos-dnp-vs-spain/


X-rays negative on Danny Granger's finger; no break, only dislocated. Rajon Rondo to miss practice today after death in his family.
10:17 AM Aug 11th via web

http://twitter.com/briancmahoney/status/20893561010

yes there was never problems with Rondo he avoided getting cut because he's terrible :rolleyes:

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 04:32 PM
i have said this before and been bashed for it, i think rose will have a similar career to marbury. marbury was a very promising score first PG when he came into the league. he had very high expectations that he could not live up to and eventually became labeled cancer. he never made his teammates better.

Well if that's your argument, I can see why you would be bashed for it.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:34 PM
X-rays negative on Danny Granger's finger; no break, only dislocated. Rajon Rondo to miss practice today after death in his family.
10:17 AM Aug 11th via web

http://twitter.com/briancmahoney/status/20893561010

yes there was never problems with Rondo he avoided getting cut because he's terrible :rolleyes:

So Coach K gave Rondo bereavement leave which Rondo naturally interpreted as being put "on the bubble"

Yeah, that makes sense...

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 04:43 PM
So Coach K gave Rondo bereavement leave which Rondo naturally interpreted as being put "on the bubble"

Yeah, that makes sense...

lol @ still trying to dispute this with the facts in your face ..Rondo had family trouble and left..just get it

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 04:45 PM
Well if that's your argument, I can see why you would be bashed for it.

why is that? edit: if you are a bulls fan i'm really not interested in debating this with you.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:47 PM
lol @ still trying to dispute this with the facts in your face ..Rondo had family trouble and left..just get it

uhh.. the fact is that Rondo himself said he thought he was "on the bubble" The fact is that Colangelo said Coach K was trying a different line up because they didn't have a lot of success in the early going of the previous 3 games.

It's makes a lot of sense that Rondo's family trouble coincided with the basketball reasons for his departure.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 04:53 PM
uhh.. the fact is that Rondo himself said he thought he was "on the bubble" The fact is that Colangelo said Coach K was trying a different line up because they didn't have a lot of success in the early going of the previous 3 games.

It's makes a lot of sense that Rondo's family trouble coincided with the basketball reasons for his departure.

If you think this team couldn't use Rondo right now, you are a bafoon.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:54 PM
If you think this team couldn't use Rondo right now, you are a bafoon.

Coach K > tcav701 :rolleyes:

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 04:54 PM
why is that? edit: if you are a bulls fan i'm really not interested in debating this with you.

I'm not a bulls fan...just a logical thinker.

I'm not even saying your wrong...but your reasons are far too weak to predict that Rose's career will take a similar path to Marbury's. You can't throw something like this out there and give so very little support - meanwhile expecting people to take you seriously.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Coach K > tcav701 :rolleyes:

Yes and tcav701>>>>>>Draco

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:57 PM
Yes and tcav701>>>>>>Draco

Rose is starting over Curry and Westbrook as per Coach K... get over it.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 04:57 PM
uhh.. the fact is that Rondo himself said he thought he was "on the bubble" The fact is that Colangelo said Coach K was trying a different line up because they didn't have a lot of success in the early going of the previous 3 games.

It's makes a lot of sense that Rondo's family trouble coincided with the basketball reasons for his departure.

lol and you're STILL trying to argue facts

cmellofan15
09-02-2010, 04:58 PM
Point Guard is a position, if you play point guard you are a point guard. simple enough. now you can argue that Rose isn't a distributor or he's not a good ball handler but he's still a point guard.

Draco
09-02-2010, 04:59 PM
lol and you're STILL trying to argue facts

right, well.. here's another fact. Rose is starting while Curry and Westbrook are on the bench and while Rondo's at home. Get over it.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 05:00 PM
Rose is starting over Curry and Westbrook as per Coach K... get over it.

I know who's starting the games and i expect changes to come now that the tryouts that are the group phase is over.

It's a shame that you put Rose's minutes over what's best for team USA.

That being said, whenever you take your lips off of Rose's dick is when I'll put any merit into your posts.

Stunner
09-02-2010, 05:01 PM
This thread is a joke big bait thread for D Rose. SMH The OP should jus kill himself....its like he jus thinks of threads to deal with Derrick Rose.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 05:01 PM
right, well.. here's another fact. Rose is starting while Curry and Westbrook are on the bench and while Rondo's at home. Get over it.

oh you're a bulls stan..im done talking with you

Draco
09-02-2010, 05:02 PM
I know who's starting the games and i expect changes to come now that the tryouts that are the group phase is over.

It's a shame that you put Rose's minutes over what's best for team USA.

That being said, whenever you take your lips off of Rose's dick is when I'll put any merit into your posts.

Actually, the point is that Coach K has Rose starting. Wouldn't it be great for you if Coach K benched Rose and confirmed everything you believe about Rose and his contributions to Team USA. Too bad that's not the case.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 05:02 PM
jesus. Why does any and every thread concerning PG's either have to start, or turn into a Rose thread?

Draco
09-02-2010, 05:03 PM
oh you're a bulls stan..im done talking with you

Good!

Draco
09-02-2010, 05:03 PM
jesus. Why does any and every thread concerning PG's either have to start, or turn into a Rose thread?

Dude, that was the point of this thread from beginning.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Dude, that was the point of this thread from beginning.

read my post again. it either is about Rose to begin with, or it becomes about him. Its beyond annoying at this point.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Actually, the point is that Coach K has Rose starting. Wouldn't it be great for you if Coach K benched Rose and confirmed everything you believe about Rose and his contributions to Team USA. Too bad that's not the case.

You're gonna have to explain that one because I watch every minute of every game and the only person that has conributed LESS than Rose is Granger and Curry.

And the only thing that would be great for me is if team USA had good starting guard play for once.

Draco
09-02-2010, 05:06 PM
You're gonna have to emplain that one because I watch every minute of every game and the only person that has conributed LESS than Rose is Granger and Curry.

Take it up with Coach K.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Take it up with Coach K.

If I could, I would.

But since thats not gonna happen, I have PSD.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 05:11 PM
jesus. Why does any and every thread concerning PG's either have to start, or turn into a Rose thread?

Blame the Chicago school system.

Students in Illinois can't point out France on a map but they know by 2nd grade that Rose is the second comming.

bbcmillionaire
09-02-2010, 05:14 PM
Blame the Chicago school system.

Students in Illinois can't point out France on a map but they know by 2nd grade that Rose is the second comming.


This guy Sofa-king wee Todd Ed

whitemamba33
09-02-2010, 05:15 PM
I don't partake in many Rose threads...so perhaps there is something I'm missing here.

But why exactly are people critisizing a 2nd year player who put up 20 ppg, 6 assists, almost 4 rebounds and had less than 3 turnovers per game? I guess because he can score? But by comparison, Steve Nash didn't average 6 assists in a season until his 5th year in league.

And his playoff numbers last year were even better.

I just don't get the hate. Is it more about the Rose fans?

haggis
09-02-2010, 05:18 PM
I don't partake in many Rose threads...so perhaps there is something I'm missing here.

But why exactly are people critisizing a 2nd year player who put up 20 ppg, 6 assists, almost 4 rebounds and had less than 3 turnovers per game? I guess because he can score? But by comparison, Steve Nash didn't average 6 assists in a season until his 5th year in league.

I just don't get the hate.

Because so many people hate bulls fans, but I don't understand why they take it out on DRose. The kid is fantastic, he's only 21, and he has led his below average team to the playoffs for the past 2 years. He is quiet, humble, and a hard worker, but for some reason he gets boatloads of hate on this forum. I don't understand it either...

Oh, and this might be one of the worst threads ever on PSD.

ZooYork786
09-02-2010, 05:20 PM
gotta be kryptonate

jim51990
09-02-2010, 05:20 PM
derrick overrated rose

TheWatcher34
09-02-2010, 05:20 PM
as long as the style of the PG fits the team and they have success it doesnt matter if they score or pass.. however, too selfish of a point guard is never good. Rose can't make his teammates better, Rondo at least gets them involved.

effen5
09-02-2010, 05:21 PM
Blame the Chicago school system.

Students in Illinois can't point out France on a map but they know by 2nd grade that Rose is the second comming.

lol wow this guy is soooo mad

:laugh:

Stunner
09-02-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't partake in many Rose threads...so perhaps there is something I'm missing here.

But why exactly are people critisizing a 2nd year player who put up 20 ppg, 6 assists, almost 4 rebounds and had less than 3 turnovers per game? I guess because he can score? But by comparison, Steve Nash didn't average 6 assists in a season until his 5th year in league.

I just don't get the hate. Is it more about the Rose fans?

Yeah more than fans cuz some bulls fans think Rose is the best PG but in reality he is a top 10 PG in the league. And when real Rose fans who watched him since before the NBA try to tell others he rather pass than score a big fights breaks out lol. Rose does what the coach tells him to, he is one of those rare players who wants to pass but has great scoring ability. Rose has to score because what was on the roster, lets see how he does now that he has help. And Rose isnt selfish and those who say he is are dumb and clearly dont watch the kid play all the time.

bbcmillionaire
09-02-2010, 05:28 PM
Yeah more than fans cuz some bulls fans think Rose is the best PG but in reality he is a top 10 PG in the league. And when real Rose fans who watched him since before the NBA try to tell others he rather pass than score a big fights breaks out lol. Rose does what the coach tells him to, he is one of those rare players who wants to pass but has great scoring ability. Rose has to score because what was on the roster, lets see how he does now that he has help. And Rose isnt selfish and those who say he is are dumb and clearly dont watch the kid play all the time.

Yea rose loved gordon his rookie year because he took pressure off of him

Silent
09-02-2010, 05:28 PM
The heat fans should care more about there point guard then if rose is a true pg or combo atleast we have a top 10 pg

Hellcrooner
09-02-2010, 05:28 PM
the number of traditional point guards in the league is very limier.
Kidd, NasH, PAUL , deron , even if those two ar ea bit of scorers too.
calderon, , rondo, felton, thats it.

tcav701
09-02-2010, 05:32 PM
lol wow this guy is soooo mad

:laugh:

Why exactly am I mad?

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 05:59 PM
AI was a better scorer though, probably one of the best scorers of all time. I'll give Rose another year though to really compare their overall games.

Iverson is one of the least efficient "scorers" of all time then.



yet rose can't make it out the first round while rondo averaged TRIPLE DOUBLE against rose and took his team out the playoffs and averages more assists and has more of a voice on the court :laugh2:

And Lebron couldn't get out of the second, and Wade couldnt get out of the first the last few years. And Durant couldnt get out of the first, and Roy and Dirk and Yao. There are others that never get there.

Basketball is a team sport, and Rose's team was remarkably average, and that's being nice.


Gordon was about the same but he creates his own shots so thats not the best example.

Salmons couldnt get a good look in Chicago he went to the Bucks and was alot better.

Hinrich has always been a solid player and was looked at late in the shot clock and was forced to throw up alot more bad shots than hes used to. I imagine he will be a solid player in Washington.

Tyrus Thomas is getting better looks in Charlotte.

Do you disagree with any of these?

Thomas is terrible. Hinrich was one of the worse shooters in the league last year from November to and through February.
Salmons was terrible in our offense last year. He was a blackhole. Every time he'd catch a pass from Rose, Noah, Deng, Kirk...he'd jab step, pump fake, dribble and then shoot. Terrible.


i agree, there are so many ways a POINT guard can be used. Pass first and then shoot? Okay with me. Shoot first then pass? Okay too. He's the point of attack, everything starts with him. He decides, he's the coach on the floor.

A QB will get the call but it's up to him to decide what it is the defense is giving him. That's what audible's offer. Give any QB a lane to run while their WR's are covered, he'll run. Now, Allen Iverson is a definition of a combo guard. Small guy that can take up the ball, and ISO, then score. Not even pretending to pass the ball. Not many point guards I can think of do that.

They're not ball-hogs. They're just damn good.

Enough with my rambling, I'm just saying, if a point guard is asked to score first and pass after because his teammates aren't good enough to get it done, then so be it. He brings up the ball, sets up plays and scores it himself is a point guard in my eyes.

Good point on the football relation.

This. Nothing else needs to be said. A PG does what the system asks for, just as every other player on the team. Lebron was the PG of his team, and Williams job wasn't to set people up as much as it was to shoot when open.


that's absolutely fine if you're trying to have a first round exit

You are a bad poster. Terrible argument.


People really dont knw Derrick Rose he really wants to pass first but team ask him to score more because thats what the team needs. If Rose was on a team where he didnt need to handle alot of the offense in terms of scoring and passed more he would be around 8 assist a game.

People still look at assists per game. I wish there was an IQ test, that quizzes people on the advanced stats. Go look at Rose's ast% and tov% and then people will realize he's a point guard that can score really well.

But then again, most people don't understand and don't want to understand those concepts.


jesus. Why does any and every thread concerning PG's either have to start, or turn into a Rose thread?

Please just close this. There was never any point to this thread except to get a rise out of other posters and to "dig" at multiple players because they don't fit the "traditional" role. Which is a bunch of crap by the way.


I don't partake in many Rose threads...so perhaps there is something I'm missing here.

But why exactly are people critisizing a 2nd year player who put up 20 ppg, 6 assists, almost 4 rebounds and had less than 3 turnovers per game? I guess because he can score? But by comparison, Steve Nash didn't average 6 assists in a season until his 5th year in league.

And his playoff numbers last year were even better.

I just don't get the hate. Is it more about the Rose fans?

For every one whitemamba33, there are 10 Rose haters.
Too bad that ratio isn't better.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 06:10 PM
Iverson is one of the least efficient "scorers" of all time then.

and a hall of famer you hating clown




And Lebron couldn't get out of the second, and Wade couldnt get out of the first the last few years. And Durant couldnt get out of the first, and Roy and Dirk and Yao. There are others that never get there.

Basketball is a team sport, and Rose's team was remarkably average, and that's being nice.



those are actually Great players which rose isn't and Durant is the only one who hasn't made it out of the first round out of all those names

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 06:23 PM
and a hall of famer you hating clown




those are actually Great players which rose isn't and Durant is the only one who hasn't made it out of the first round out of all those names

Iverson is one of the worst efficient "all-stars" of all time. He was a bad defender, and just a bad player. He's extremely overrated in its entirety, while being extremely underrated in his passing abilities.
I'm not saying he "sucks" but i am saying he's not a great player. If i had a HOF vote, he wouldnt get mine because he was more of a liability on the court than an asset on the court.


And how many years has Rose been in the league?
Two years. I guess if you don't get past the first round by your second year you aren't a very good player. :rolleyes:

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 06:27 PM
Iverson is one of the worst efficient "all-stars" of all time. He was a bad defender, and just a bad player. He's extremely overrated in its entirety, while being extremely underrated in his passing abilities.
I'm not saying he "sucks" but i am saying he's not a great player. If i had a HOF vote, he wouldnt get mine because he was more of a liability on the court than an asset on the court.

if that was the case then he would've NEVER made it to the finals, which he has, or won an MVP.

And A.I. is definitely going to the HoF.

Sir Buckets
09-02-2010, 06:28 PM
Because so many people hate bulls fans, but I don't understand why they take it out on DRose. The kid is fantastic, he's only 21, and he has led his below average team to the playoffs for the past 2 years. He is quiet, humble, and a hard worker, but for some reason he gets boatloads of hate on this forum. I don't understand it either...

Oh, and this might be one of the worst threads ever on PSD.I-I... I think I love you.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 06:29 PM
Iverson is one of the worst efficient "all-stars" of all time. He was a bad defender, and just a bad player. He's extremely overrated in its entirety, while being extremely underrated in his passing abilities.
I'm not saying he "sucks" but i am saying he's not a great player. If i had a HOF vote, he wouldnt get mine because he was more of a liability on the court than an asset on the court.


And how many years has Rose been in the league?
Two years. I guess if you don't get past the first round by your second year you aren't a very good player. :rolleyes:

and while you hate on Iverson's great talent he will be in the hall of fame :laugh2:

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 06:36 PM
if that was the case then he would've NEVER made it to the finals, which he has, or won an MVP.

And A.I. is definitely going to the HoF.

Adam Morrison has made the finals on a team. So has Brian Scalabrine. That's a terrible argument.


and while you hate on Iverson's great talent he will be in the hall of fame :laugh2:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

Go down to the advances stats section. Read it. Look over it. Study it.

His career ts%, eFG%, and ORtg, and WS/48 is below average.
He was a detriment to his team. The stats prove it. His ORtg was lower than his DRtg. His ts% was below average, and his eFG% is really bad. He was at best an average defender over his career.

And that screams HOF? Not to me.
If Derrick Rose posted those numbers, he would be ripped apart. But because Iverson is a household name (similar to McGrady) he's loved. People need to actually prepare an in-depth analysis of the player, and not go by reputation.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Adam Morrison has made the finals on a team. So has Brian Scalabrine. That's a terrible argument.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

Go down to the advances stats section. Read it. Look over it. Study it.

His career ts%, eFG%, and ORtg, and WS/48 is below average.
He was a detriment to his team. The stats prove it. His ORtg was lower than his DRtg. His ts% was below average, and his eFG% is really bad. He was at best an average defender over his career.

and while you are over here looking to critique him he is going into the hall of fame

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 06:41 PM
and while you are over here looking to critique him he is going into the hall of fame

I see you have no counter argument, because no stats or anything backs that up and you only have ur opinion that is severely flawed. :laugh2:

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 06:44 PM
I see you have no counter argument, because no stats or anything backs that up and you only have ur opinion that is severely flawed. :laugh2:

oh yes it's only my opinion that Iverson will get into the hall of fame and instead of watching him in his prime you just look at stats to act like you know what you're talking about ..anyone can just look at stats try watching someone play and while you're worked up over him being such a "terrible" player this terrible former mvp is going to the hall of fame :laugh2:

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 06:48 PM
It's saddening to me how people just ignore stats and concrete evidence.
Advanced stats give a great detailed description of how effective a player is, and those formulas were developed by professors at universities. But oh no, Iverson averaged 30 points a couple years. So he must be good right? Uh, no because his eFG% those years where he averaged 30+ were as follows:

.447
.422
.453
.467

that is ****ing awful.... 42.2% :puke:

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 06:49 PM
It's saddening to me how people just ignore stats and concrete evidence.
Advanced stats give a great detailed description of how effective a player is, and those formulas were developed by professors at universities. But oh no, Iverson averaged 30 points a couple years. So he must be good right? Uh, no because his eFG% those years where he averaged 30+ were as follows:

.447
.422
.453
.467

that is ****ing awful.... 42.2% :puke:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html
hmm and number 24 on the list with a 99 % chance of making the hall of fame is ALLEN IVERSON let me find out they give MVP awards to terrible players and put terrible players into the hall of fame

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 06:52 PM
Adam Morrison has made the finals on a team. So has Brian Scalabrine. That's a terrible argument.

Iverson 00-01 (finals year): 31.4 ppg
Morrison 08-09, 09-10 (finals year): 6.5 mpg

I can't believe u compared Iverson who's a top 20 scorer in the history of the NBa to a benchwarming bust. If my argument is terrible, your comparisons are 900x worse.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 06:54 PM
It's saddening to me how people just ignore stats and concrete evidence.
Advanced stats give a great detailed description of how effective a player is, and those formulas were developed by professors at universities. But oh no, Iverson averaged 30 points a couple years. So he must be good right? Uh, no because his eFG% those years where he averaged 30+ were as follows:

.447
.422
.453
.467

that is ****ing awful.... 42.2% :puke:

funny how you leave out the other 3 percentages which are pretty much 45%+, which is considered pretty good percentages for a guard...

Baller1
09-02-2010, 06:58 PM
Adam Morrison has made the finals on a team. So has Brian Scalabrine. That's a terrible argument.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

Go down to the advances stats section. Read it. Look over it. Study it.

His career ts%, eFG%, and ORtg, and WS/48 is below average.
He was a detriment to his team. The stats prove it. His ORtg was lower than his DRtg. His ts% was below average, and his eFG% is really bad. He was at best an average defender over his career.

And that screams HOF? Not to me.
If Derrick Rose posted those numbers, he would be ripped apart. But because Iverson is a household name (similar to McGrady) he's loved. People need to actually prepare an in-depth analysis of the player, and not go by reputation.

You're comparing Morrison and Scalabrine to Allen Iverson. That right there negates anything you're trying to argue.

AddiX
09-02-2010, 07:04 PM
You can't compare AI to the other scoring point guards of the league.

AI was a phenom. One of the most skilled players ever.

People talk about how bad Bron's team was. Which I don't agree with, but whatever.

AI brought probably the worst team of the modern NBA to the finals. That team was horrible. None of those guys were even starters on any other team. Most of them were out of the NBA a few years later.

AI was one of a kind.

avrpatsfan
09-02-2010, 07:06 PM
hopefully this stays positive...
Sorry it won't. It'll be Derrick Rose vs. Rondo again.

Ware_Spencer
09-02-2010, 07:15 PM
You can't compare AI to the other scoring point guards of the league.

AI was a phenom. One of the most skilled players ever.

People talk about how bad Bron's team was. Which I don't agree with, but whatever.

AI brought probably the worst team of the modern NBA to the finals. That team was horrible. None of those guys were even starters on any other team. Most of them were out of the NBA a few years later.

AI was one of a kind.

The Eastern Conference was horrible during that time period. the 8th team in the west was just as good as the 76ers. That year was a joke. That is why the 76ers got swept and got embarrassed.

Who cares if he took his team to the finals. It was more Larry Brown's doing rather than Iverson.

Iverson does not make his teammates better. You look at the Hall of Famers and that is something all of them did. Iverson was a cancer and everyone needs to realize that.

I am not saying he wasn't talented. He was probably one of the most talented guards ever. But that doesn't make you a good player. And I am being dead serious. Steve Francis and Marbuary were also talented. Score first point guards are not good for a team. If the Point guard is score first than the rest of the team doesn't get involved and when they catch a pass to shoot its so out of the norm that they miss or feel uncomfortable with the ball. The point guard needs to be pass first or at least be balanced. Or give the ball up enough so somebody else can be the playmaker.

KnicksorBust
09-02-2010, 07:20 PM
Adam Morrison has made the finals on a team. So has Brian Scalabrine. That's a terrible argument.


Arrogant and incapable of creating a proper comparison. You are a winner. Thankfully two other people already pointed out the absurdity of comparing Iverson to Morrison or Scalabrine. The role a player takes in winning those titles is the key element.


You're comparing Morrison and Scalabrine to Allen Iverson. That right there negates anything you're trying to argue.

x2


Iverson 00-01 (finals year): 31.4 ppg
Morrison 08-09, 09-10 (finals year): 6.5 mpg

I can't believe u compared Iverson who's a top 20 scorer in the history of the NBa to a benchwarming bust. If my argument is terrible, your comparisons are 900x worse.

Agreed.

It's saddening to me how people just ignore stats and concrete evidence.
Advanced stats give a great detailed description of how effective a player is, and those formulas were developed by professors at universities. But oh no, Iverson averaged 30 points a couple years. So he must be good right? Uh, no because his eFG% those years where he averaged 30+ were as follows:

.447
.422
.453
.467

that is ****ing awful.... 42.2% :puke:

I love advanced stats myself why don't test out another one? How bout true shooting percentage? You know the one that factors in free throw shooting. Considering the fact that only 9 players in NBA history have made more free throws than Iverson I think we can safely assume it's one of his strong points that you've neglected. Allen Iverson has a true shooting percentage of 52%. Not nearly as bad as you picking out his lowest year of his career of eFG%. Factor in the countless years where he had little offensive help, teams could key on him, all the tough shots at the end of quarters, halves, and games... and suddenly I'm not puking like you are anymore. Plus when a guy is getting to the line 8x per game for a 13 year career I think it's safe to say he's doing a damn good job of effecting the other teams defense by drawing fouls. If you want to strictly talk about effeciency then that's fine but you can't ignore the other key skills of one of the best penetrating guards in NBA History because it suits you.

Ware_Spencer
09-02-2010, 07:29 PM
True shooting percentage is bull S H IT. I am sorry but adding freethrows together with field goal percentage makes no sense.

That doesn't determine your efficiency which field goal percentage does. It could tell you how good of a scorer you are. But outside of that it is bull ****.

free throw percentage and attempts together does not equal how efficient you are.

Adding them together doesn't make any sense. I am not saying its not a good stat but it should not be labeled TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE. Because shooting percentage related to efficiency. Free throw attempts is completely different than that. They aren't even in the same category.

If you shoot a bad shooting percentage but get a lot of free throws that doesn't negate the fact that you shoot really dumb shots during the game. Like Iverson did.

Its apples and oranges. Adding them together doesn't make sense.

AddiX
09-02-2010, 07:40 PM
The Eastern Conference was horrible during that time period. the 8th team in the west was just as good as the 76ers. That year was a joke. That is why the 76ers got swept and got embarrassed.

Who cares if he took his team to the finals. It was more Larry Brown's doing rather than Iverson.

Iverson does not make his teammates better. You look at the Hall of Famers and that is something all of them did. Iverson was a cancer and everyone needs to realize that.

I am not saying he wasn't talented. He was probably one of the most talented guards ever. But that doesn't make you a good player. And I am being dead serious. Steve Francis and Marbuary were also talented. Score first point guards are not good for a team. If the Point guard is score first than the rest of the team doesn't get involved and when they catch a pass to shoot its so out of the norm that they miss or feel uncomfortable with the ball. The point guard needs to be pass first or at least be balanced. Or give the ball up enough so somebody else can be the playmaker.

Your right, the east was really weak. And I'm not argueing AI was a great PG. But he was a great player. That team he brought to the finals was a 8 win team without him.

And no true PG in the history of the NBA was going to bring that team to the finals. I don't even think there is a player in the history of the NBA that could do it.

For that specific team AI had to be the scorer and for a little guy to do what he did, even in a weak eastern conference, is amazing. We have never seen a small player do it before or after. I'm all about true PGs > scoring guards, but what AI did that year and throughout his career makes him a different kind of player.

sargon21
09-02-2010, 07:47 PM
Rose is a pg. He may not be a true point guard but i could care less, hes going to avg around 23-24ppg and 8apg this year, i don't care what kind of guard you are, thats good.

(btw: just for people who weren't paying close attention, if you take out rose's slow start due to that bum ankle he avg. 22 and 6 the rest of the year)

Baller1
09-02-2010, 07:52 PM
Arrogant and incapable of creating a proper comparison. You are a winner. Thankfully two other people already pointed out the absurdity of comparing Iverson to Morrison or Scalabrine. The role a player takes in winning those titles is the key element.



x2



Agreed.


I love advanced stats myself why don't test out another one? How bout true shooting percentage? You know the one that factors in free throw shooting. Considering the fact that only 9 players in NBA history have made more free throws than Iverson I think we can safely assume it's one of his strong points that you've neglected. Allen Iverson has a true shooting percentage of 52%. Not nearly as bad as you picking out his lowest year of his career of eFG%. Factor in the countless years where he had little offensive help, teams could key on him, all the tough shots at the end of quarters, halves, and games... and suddenly I'm not puking like you are anymore. Plus when a guy is getting to the line 8x per game for a 13 year career I think it's safe to say he's doing a damn good job of effecting the other teams defense by drawing fouls. If you want to strictly talk about effeciency then that's fine but you can't ignore the other key skills of one of the best penetrating guards in NBA History because it suits you.

Perfect post. Saved me a lot of time.

KnicksorBust
09-02-2010, 07:52 PM
True shooting percentage is bull S H IT. I am sorry but adding freethrows together with field goal percentage makes no sense.

That doesn't determine your efficiency which field goal percentage does. It could tell you how good of a scorer you are. But outside of that it is bull ****.

free throw percentage and attempts together does not equal how efficient you are.

Adding them together doesn't make any sense. I am not saying its not a good stat but it should not be labeled TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE. Because shooting percentage related to efficiency. Free throw attempts is completely different than that. They aren't even in the same category.

If you shoot a bad shooting percentage but get a lot of free throws that doesn't negate the fact that you shoot really dumb shots during the game. Like Iverson did.

Its apples and oranges. Adding them together doesn't make sense.

If you don't think shooting a lot of free throws accurately makes you a more effecient scorer than we will just have to agree to disagree. Logically I just don't understand how you can believe that.

Khalifa21
09-02-2010, 07:54 PM
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Jason Kidd

They are true PG's in my opinion. Rose isn't.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 07:54 PM
The Eastern Conference was horrible during that time period. the 8th team in the west was just as good as the 76ers. That year was a joke. That is why the 76ers got swept and got embarrassed.
you don't know what you're talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79WSHpMU894



Who cares if he took his team to the finals. It was more Larry Brown's doing rather than Iverson.
:laugh2: yes because larry brown was on the court making all those shots and abusing the opponents defense ..of course we don't care about making the finals when it makes Iverson look more positive :facepalm:



Iverson does not make his teammates better. You look at the Hall of Famers and that is something all of them did. Iverson was a cancer and everyone needs to realize that.
yet NONE of those players careers were good without Iverson and they were only good playing with iverson

“He made guys want to play hard. He wasn’t late for a meeting or late for a practice. All the past stuff you heard about him didn't happen here." - Elton Brand, 2010

"I love him, Every day was a challenge with him, but he played hurt and he competed like nobody else. He always tried to make his teammates better, and those are the things I value." -Larry Brown Former Sixers Head Coach.

funny how he was a cancer and such a locker room problem but the people who PLAYED with him had good things to say about his character ..but no we like to listen to the media and ignore concrete evidence :rolleyes:


I am not saying he wasn't talented. He was probably one of the most talented guards ever. But that doesn't make you a good player. And I am being dead serious. Steve Francis and Marbuary were also talented. Score first point guards are not good for a team. If the Point guard is score first than the rest of the team doesn't get involved and when they catch a pass to shoot its so out of the norm that they miss or feel uncomfortable with the ball. The point guard needs to be pass first or at least be balanced. Or give the ball up enough so somebody else can be the playmaker.
he played shooting guard for nearly his whole career and while he is this big ball hog you speak of he still averages 6.2 apg for his career which is more than kobe at 4.7 apg he scored and was able to get his offensively challenged teammates involved

D Roses Bulls
09-02-2010, 07:55 PM
so this thread was made to bash rose? just wow

REALLYYYYY?
09-02-2010, 08:31 PM
so this thread was made to bash rose? just wow

actually, i don't really see how it is bashing him. the point here seems to be that he is better at scoring than other point guards. however, it is still very possible that the intent of this thread was to bash rose.

Bulls_fan90
09-02-2010, 08:47 PM
Westbrook.

REALLYYYYY?
09-02-2010, 09:03 PM
actually, i don't really see how it is bashing him. the point here seems to be that he is better at scoring than other point guards. however, it is still very possible that the intent of this thread was to bash rose.

i'm just glad to see that rose was able to learn to not be too pass first whenever him passing helps the team less than him shooting.

astrotown
09-02-2010, 09:17 PM
I would rather have rose driving to the basket then having him pass it to Glass Luol for a shot

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 09:18 PM
I'm not a bulls fan...just a logical thinker.

I'm not even saying your wrong...but your reasons are far too weak to predict that Rose's career will take a similar path to Marbury's. You can't throw something like this out there and give so very little support - meanwhile expecting people to take you seriously.

well if i am right it wouldnt be the worst thing in the world for rose. stephon marbury had an all star career (statistically) and was in the league getting payed for a longggg time. obviously nobody can predict roses career. i'm just saying that starbury was also a one and done college player who was amazing at that level; and for a good portion of his career was considered a top 5-6 pg in the nba. he was also better at creating for himself than for others.. people were very high on him and considered him one of the best.

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 09:20 PM
I would rather have rose driving to the basket then having him pass it to Glass Luol for a shot
the bulls fans voted him in as a top 10 sf:facepalm: so that arguement doesnt work for me. either way, they have boozer now and a couple shooters so lets wait and see how that team works.

Bulls_fan90
09-02-2010, 09:31 PM
well if i am right it wouldnt be the worst thing in the world for rose. stephon marbury had an all star career (statistically) and was in the league getting payed for a longggg time. obviously nobody can predict roses career. i'm just saying that starbury was also a one and done college player who was amazing at that level; and for a good portion of his career was considered a top 5-6 pg in the nba. he was also better at creating for himself than for others.. people were very high on him and considered him one of the best.

You obviously have no clue what your talking about. Marbury had all the talent in the world. The reason his career went to the **** is because he's ****ing nuts. He has a terrible attitude and is obviously missing a few screws. Rose has none of those issues, co comparing the two players (on having a similar career) is pathetic.

Ovratd1up
09-02-2010, 09:33 PM
It's as simple as this:

Derrick Rose could be a "pure" set-up PG like Rondo, and he'd be pretty good, but nowhere near as effective as he is now.

Rajon Rondo is the much better pure PG. He couldn't do what Rose does night in and night out, but he doesn't need to, and is much more effective in his current role, like Rose.


Who would you rather have, a pure PG in Andre Miller or a shoot-first PG in Aaron Brooks?

So why are we even comparing them? They are two completely different players, have different roles, different teams and circumstances, and different styles. It is only a matter of who is more effective in their own role, and that is up for debate. Not really though.

Bulls_fan90
09-02-2010, 09:34 PM
the bulls fans voted him in as a top 10 sf:facepalm: so that arguement doesnt work for me. either way, they have boozer now and a couple shooters so lets wait and see how that team works.

So did Yahoo. But i guess they're all Bulls homers as well :facepalm:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Ranking-the-small-forwards-11-through-1?urn=nba-264568#remaining-content

Kashmir13579
09-02-2010, 09:34 PM
You obviously have no clue what your talking about. Marbury had all the talent in the world. The reason his career went to the **** is because he's ****ing nuts. He has a terrible attitude and is obviously missing a few screws. Rose has none of those issues, co comparing the two players (on having a similar career) is pathetic.

says the bulls fan. i do agree that he isnt as mental as starbury; but there have been a lot of nut-cases that have had illustrious careers in professional sports. to deny this would be foolish.

Ovratd1up
09-02-2010, 09:38 PM
Point Guard is a position, if you play point guard you are a point guard. simple enough. now you can argue that Rose isn't a distributor or he's not a good ball handler but he's still a point guard.

See, this is where everyone is wrong. He is a "lead" guard, just like Wade, Roy, Parker, Ellis, etc. There was a thread on this in the Bulls' forum, I recommend you guys check it out.

Oh, and Rose isn't really a bad ballhandler.
You people need to watch him more during the season if you guys really believe he isn't that good because he only averaged 6 apg with Kirk/Taj/Vinny.

Bulls_fan90
09-02-2010, 09:43 PM
says the bulls fan. i do agree that he isnt as mental as starbury; but there have been a lot of nut-cases that have had illustrious careers in professional sports. to deny this would be foolish.

We're not talking about other 'nut-cases', we are specifically talking about Marbury. :facepalm:

boriquaabe
09-02-2010, 09:55 PM
toney douglas
Jason terry used to.
Jameer nelson
Derrick fisher
The other derrick
randy foye
devon harris

Shammyguy3
09-02-2010, 10:55 PM
funny how you leave out the other 3 percentages which are pretty much 45%+, which is considered pretty good percentages for a guard...

First off, you're wrong. I'll just list them all though:
46.7%
48.6%
43.9%
44.6%
44.7%
42.2%
43.6%
41.2%
45.3%
46.7%
46.6%
48.8%
43.4%
44.5%

career efG% 45.2%

The average eFG% last year for guards was 49.3%
With that stated, it's very safe to say that the average eFG% varies from year to year 49.3% by another 0.5%: 48.8%<x<49.8%
So, Iverson has only had 1 average year, and he's NEVER had an efG% that's above average.

Yeah, that's really a ****ing hall of famer right?


Arrogant and incapable of creating a proper comparison. You are a winner. Thankfully two other people already pointed out the absurdity of comparing Iverson to Morrison or Scalabrine. The role a player takes in winning those titles is the key element.

I wasn't comparing Iverson to either of those guys. I was showing that just because Iverson has played in the Finals before doesn't mean ****. 24 guys play in the finals each year, so just because Iverson made it there once is a terrible argument for debating whether he's a good player, or the reality that he wasn't.





I love advanced stats myself why don't test out another one? How bout true shooting percentage? You know the one that factors in free throw shooting. Considering the fact that only 9 players in NBA history have made more free throws than Iverson I think we can safely assume it's one of his strong points that you've neglected.

TS% is also a good one. Here are Iverson's career ts%es:
51.3%
53.5%
50.8%
49.6%
51.8%
48.9%
50.0%
47.8%
53.2%
54.3%
54.0%
56.7%
50.4%
51.5%

career ts% of 51.8%

Again you're wrong.
Last year the average true shooting percentage for guards was 53.7%
So, using the same logic as before, the year-to-year variation is about this:

53.2%<x<54.2%

Using those numbers, Iverson has been below average 9 times in his career. He's been average 3 times in his career. He's been above average only 2 times (with one of those times being 0.1% above average).

Again, does that say HOF to you? If it does you need to recheck your admission costs.


Allen Iverson has a true shooting percentage of 52%. Not nearly as bad as you picking out his lowest year of his career of eFG%. Factor in the countless years where he had little offensive help, teams could key on him, all the tough shots at the end of quarters, halves, and games... and suddenly I'm not puking like you are anymore. Plus when a guy is getting to the line 8x per game for a 13 year career I think it's safe to say he's doing a damn good job of effecting the other teams defense by drawing fouls. If you want to strictly talk about effeciency then that's fine but you can't ignore the other key skills of one of the best penetrating guards in NBA History because it suits you.

Now your just making excuses for him because of the teams he's been on. Out of all the players in the league that have been at some point elected to an all-star game, he has the worst efG% and ts% (closely followed by McGrady).




Its apples and oranges. Adding them together doesn't make sense.

Getting to the line is a valuable asset. It's best to look at both of them, to get a really good picture.


See, this is where everyone is wrong. He is a "lead" guard, just like Wade, Roy, Parker, Ellis, etc. There was a thread on this in the Bulls' forum, I recommend you guys check it out.

Oh, and Rose isn't really a bad ballhandler.
You people need to watch him more during the season if you guys really believe he isn't that good because he only averaged 6 apg with Kirk/Taj/Vinny.


People will never understand this.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 11:02 PM
this thread is going round and round, with no point at this time.
btw, Allen Iverson will go down as one of the more overrated superstars of our generation. He is a complete chucker, though a chucker with heart, if that helps salvage my criticism.