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Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:11 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last two years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8)
9)
10)


2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:17 AM
I skipped number 7 because KG almost won the number 6 poll. No other player was even close...

masalex1205
09-02-2010, 10:24 AM
Josh Smith w/o a doubt

beasted86
09-02-2010, 10:27 AM
So Duncan is a PF, and Lee is a PF.... so what exactly does that make Al Jefferson & Al Horford?

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 10:27 AM
It's Smith or Randolph. No one comes close to either. I'll take Randolph since Smith has failed to improve drastically the last 4 seasons, something randolph did do.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 10:28 AM
So Duncan is a PF, and Lee is a PF.... so what exactly does that make Al Jefferson & Al Horford?
Horford and AL Jeff are C's........both are way too slow for PF. Lee has enough speed to play PF and only played C for the knicks because of their system.

pebloemer
09-02-2010, 10:29 AM
So Duncan is a PF, and Lee is a PF.... so what exactly does that make Al Jefferson & Al Horford?

I'm not sure what site Mile High is using, but I believe Horford is still projection to play C next year no?

Jefferson on the other hand is definitely playing PF next year. Still not sure why he isn't on the poll.

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:30 AM
So Duncan is a PF, and Lee is a PF.... so what exactly does that make Al Jefferson & Al Horford?

With Splitter being the starting center in San Antonio, Duncan is naturally the PF. Lee is now the starting PF with the warriors next to Biedrins. Jefferson and Horford both started the majority of their games at C last season. Its quite simple when you think about it.

beasted86
09-02-2010, 10:30 AM
Horford and AL Jeff are C's........both are way too slow for PF. Lee has enough speed to play PF and only played C for the knicks because of their system.

So Duncan is faster than Horford & Al Jeff?

all I want is consistent logic in defining these player's positions. With how the OP is choosing to position some guys, it doesn't follow others... IE: Duncan a PF, but not Al Jefferson or Al Horford... Monta Ellis a SG, etc...

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 10:31 AM
Josh Smith w/o a doubt
w/o a doubt? I'd love some reasoning..


It's a damn shame Randolph will never ever get the credit he deserves

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:31 AM
I'm not sure what site Mile High is using, but I believe Horford is still projection to play C next year no?

Jefferson on the other hand is definitely playing PF next year. Still not sure why he isn't on the poll.

Other sites have listed Jefferson as a C and right now I have heard nothing about if Millsap or Okur will start for the Jazz. Jefferson could still end up as the starting center..

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 10:31 AM
So Duncan is faster than Horford & Al Jeff?

all I want is consistent logic in defining these player's positions. With how the OP is choosing to position some guys, it doesn't follow others... IE: Duncan a PF, but not Al Jefferson or Al Horford... Monta Ellis a SG, etc...
Duncan plays PF for his actual team....Al jeff at PF would be a trainwreck with his knee and Horford plays C too.

pebloemer
09-02-2010, 10:32 AM
Horford and AL Jeff are C's........both are way too slow for PF. Lee has enough speed to play PF and only played C for the knicks because of their system.

Quite debatable. Most people I've talked to think Atlanta should move Horford to PF and get a legit C. Jefferson is projected as starting PF for Utah this season....

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:33 AM
So Duncan is faster than Horford & Al Jeff?

all I want is consistent logic in defining these player's positions. With how the OP is choosing to position some guys, it doesn't follow others... IE: Duncan a PF, but not Al Jefferson or Al Horford... Monta Ellis a SG, etc...

What don't you understand? the Logic is simple. Horford played center all of last season and he will do it all again this year playing next to Josh Smith. Ellis played Sg last year next to Stephen Curry. Jefferson started all his games last year at Center and this year he could do the same if the Jazz do start Millsap instead of Okur.

pebloemer
09-02-2010, 10:33 AM
With Splitter being the starting center in San Antonio, Duncan is naturally the PF. Lee is now the starting PF with the warriors next to Biedrins. Jefferson and Horford both started the majority of their games at C last season. Its quite simple when you think about it.

But the same logic used for Lee playing PF next to Biedrins next season can be used for Jefferson playing next to Okur next season...

pebloemer
09-02-2010, 10:35 AM
Other sites have listed Jefferson as a C and right now I have heard nothing about if Millsap or Okur will start for the Jazz. Jefferson could still end up as the starting center..

I guess it is debatable, is there a single site you are using, or a collection of sites?

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:35 AM
But the same logic used for Lee playing PF next to Biedrins next season can be used for Jefferson playing next to Okur next season...

True but there has been no indication what so ever that Okur will be the starting center next year for the Jazz. I am just going by the basics here to determine player positions.

Mile High Champ
09-02-2010, 10:36 AM
I guess it is debatable, is there a single site you are using, or a collection of sites?

A collection. Using NBA.com, CBS, ESPN, Yahoo etc to get an overall idea of what that player plays. I am also basing it on what position the player started at last season and of course what they will be play this year. Its not perfect but it works..

97NYer
09-02-2010, 10:41 AM
I went with David Lee.

pebloemer
09-02-2010, 10:41 AM
A collection. Using NBA.com, CBS, ESPN, Yahoo etc to get an overall idea of what that player plays. I am also basing it on what position the player started at last season and of course what they will be play this year. Its not perfect but it works..

Fair enough. Cases like these are arguable, so I'm sure there will be disagreements with who plays where.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 10:46 AM
But the same logic used for Lee playing PF next to Biedrins next season can be used for Jefferson playing next to Okur next season...
Except Millsap>Okur. Especially since AL Jeff as C> Al Jeff as PF



I'd still like to know why David Lee is better than Randolph....

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 10:47 AM
my homerism wants me to vote Love here. But I am voting Smith

beasted86
09-02-2010, 10:51 AM
With Splitter being the starting center in San Antonio, Duncan is naturally the PF. Lee is now the starting PF with the warriors next to Biedrins. Jefferson and Horford both started the majority of their games at C last season. Its quite simple when you think about it.

Now see what I'm talking about with consistent logic... here's my issue.

Duncan is at PF because you think he is going to play PF next season with Tiago Splitter starting at C. So my next question to you is, do you know with 100% certainty that the Jazz will start Al Jefferson at C with Millsap at PF? What happens if they continue to start Okur and use Al Jefferson at his more natural position of PF?

Similarly, can you say with 100% certainty Splitter is going to automatically jump into the starting lineup?

This is why your logic isn't consistent.

Avenged
09-02-2010, 10:51 AM
Shouldn't have skipped 7.. but eh, there's already plenty of complaints as it is.

Josh Smith.

beasted86
09-02-2010, 11:00 AM
What don't you understand? the Logic is simple. Horford played center all of last season and he will do it all again this year playing next to Josh Smith. Ellis played Sg last year next to Stephen Curry. Jefferson started all his games last year at Center and this year he could do the same if the Jazz do start Millsap instead of Okur.

Duncan started all of his games last season at Center, unless you really want to get stupid and try and convince us 6'9" 240 lb. McDyess was the Center, and Blair at 6'6" was the Center. :facepalm:

Duncan took the opening tip every night, defended the Center, and played in the low post every night with McDyess or Blair at the high post. If those aren't all indications Duncan played Center, I don't know what is.

mikantsass
09-02-2010, 11:00 AM
J Smoove

stejay
09-02-2010, 11:02 AM
It was close with Smith and Lee, but I went for Lee in this one. Just want to add... Boozer over KG is a fail, IMO....

mynameismo
09-02-2010, 11:08 AM
Josh Smith

daleja424
09-02-2010, 11:14 AM
So Duncan is faster than Horford & Al Jeff?

all I want is consistent logic in defining these player's positions. With how the OP is choosing to position some guys, it doesn't follow others... IE: Duncan a PF, but not Al Jefferson or Al Horford... Monta Ellis a SG, etc...

It is based on the position they started the most games at last year. Horford started at Center all year, Duncan started at PF all year.

black1605
09-02-2010, 11:16 AM
Josh Smith.

daleja424
09-02-2010, 11:17 AM
Duncan started all of his games last season at Center, unless you really want to get stupid and try and convince us 6'9" 240 lb. McDyess was the Center, and Blair at 6'6" was the Center. :facepalm:

Duncan took the opening tip every night, defended the Center, and played in the low post every night with McDyess or Blair at the high post. If those aren't all indications Duncan played Center, I don't know what is.

not according to the Spurs depth chart.Go look at any depth chart online... Duncan is the PF.

http://espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=sas
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/depth-chart/SA
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas/depthchart

In fact, the Spurs player roster has Duncan listed at FORWARD, not even F-C.
http://www.nba.com/spurs/roster/

whether or not you believe it doesnt really matter, the spurs call him a PF, so why should the OP disregard this...

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 11:37 AM
And no one has yet to provide evidence why Smith is better than Randolph....

todu82
09-02-2010, 11:44 AM
David Lee

beasted86
09-02-2010, 11:52 AM
not according to the Spurs depth chart.Go look at any depth chart online... Duncan is the PF.

http://espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=sas
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/depth-chart/SA
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas/depthchart

In fact, the Spurs player roster has Duncan listed at FORWARD, not even F-C.
http://www.nba.com/spurs/roster/

whether or not you believe it doesnt really matter, the spurs call him a PF, so why should the OP disregard this...

What's the funniest about this is you click the ESPN link that has him as a PF in the depth chart, and on his actual profile page when you click his name has him listed as Center, clear as day.

Nobody seems to be consistent with what they list Duncan as. Yahoo has him as FC, ESPN has him as C, CBS has him as F, and NBA.com has him as PF. 4 different positions from 4 different websites.

AntiG
09-02-2010, 11:55 AM
Big Baby should be on this list. He's better than Jamison lol.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 11:56 AM
And no one has yet to provide evidence why Smith is better than Randolph....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZqcgVtGq1o&feature=fvst

bigsams50
09-02-2010, 11:59 AM
And no one has yet to provide evidence why Smith is better than Randolph....

Defense

Jays Claw
09-02-2010, 12:04 PM
Josh Smith in a landslide.

BlazingJ
09-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Show some love for Aldridge.. I personally think he is better than smith or randolph, maybe because i'm a homer but still. Smith is too small, he's more of a small forward, and randolph is a black hole and a stat stuffer. He is not a team player at all. I would know, he was on the blazers.

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 12:22 PM
Josh Smith best all round PF left

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 12:22 PM
And no one has yet to provide evidence why Smith is better than Randolph....

you're kidding right?

DeShaun Brown
09-02-2010, 12:23 PM
I skipped number 7 because KG almost won the number 6 poll. No other player was even close...

I personally believe that Lee and Randolph are better than KG at this point in their respective careers.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 12:25 PM
Defense
Randolph's career DRTG is 108 which isn't good but not far off from J-Smoove's 104. Doesn't make up the difference in offense and rebounding

Niro
09-02-2010, 12:25 PM
mr.lee

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 12:25 PM
I personally believe that Lee and Randolph are better than KG at this point in their respective careers.

:laugh:

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Randolph's career DRTG is 108 which isn't good but not far off from J-Smoove's 104. Doesn't make up the difference in offense and rebounding

And thats the only aspect of D you take into consideration?

VinceCarter
09-02-2010, 12:26 PM
With Splitter being the starting center in San Antonio, Duncan is naturally the PF. Lee is now the starting PF with the warriors next to Biedrins. Jefferson and Horford both started the majority of their games at C last season. Its quite simple when you think about it.

Not at all. Al Jeff will being playing PF next to Okur. **** I just realized that he isn't in the top 8 :pity:

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 12:27 PM
you're kidding right?
Randolph has a higher Simple Overall rating, net production, and PER. You're kidding right?

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 12:27 PM
And thats the only aspect of D you take into consideration?
Well yea, because that covers Defense as a WHOLE.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 12:35 PM
Z-Bo. Josh Smith is a playoff choker.

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 12:44 PM
Well yea, because that covers Defense as a WHOLE.

OK well hear what next time you look to say stuff like this gets your facts straight. We are not talking careers we are talking next season.... You talk about the difference in offense but thier difference in ORtg for over thier careers (since that is what you apparently took in to consideration) is actually less than that of their DRtg. So its really not that big of a gap.

They have two different roles and are 2 different players. Their is a reason however why Josh is widely regarded as one of the best defensive players in the game and up until last season Zach was seen as a me first chucker who at time though he was Kobe or Rose and kept launching bricks from 18 feet. Fact is Josh is the overall better player. If you watch them play enough you'd know that.

Hustlenomics
09-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Z-Bo. Josh Smith is a playoff choker.

what has Z-bo done in the playoffs? and when is the last time he even made it

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2010, 12:50 PM
what has Z-bo done in the playoffs? and when is the last time he even made it

Z-Bo's been on much crappier teams.

DeShaun Brown
09-02-2010, 01:15 PM
I personally believe that Lee and Randolph are better than KG at this point in their respective careers.


:laugh:

So if you were starting a team from scratch and all of the top 7 guys on this list were taken, you would pick KG over Lee? Now keep in mind that KG, who is now 34, has missed 49 games due to injury in the last 3 years and he has seen his production decline from 18.8 ppg and 9.2 rpg, as well as other stats to 14.3 ppg and 7.3 rpg. Even more telling was KG's performance in the finals where he matched up against Pau Gasol and averaged 15.2 ppg and 5.5 rpg, with Gasol averaging 18.5 ppg and 11.5 rpg. Now, of course one could argue that it was because he matched up against Gasol who is now one of the top 4's in the league, but consider the results of this same finals matchup 2 years earlier. In the 08 finals KG put up 18.2 ppg and 13 rpg, while Pau put up 14.7 ppg and 10.2 rpg. This shows an obvious decline in KG's production that I'm sure no one will disagree with.

Although I use stats to support my case, I'm a firm believer that statsdon't tell the whole story. However, from watching both of these battles between KG and Gasol it was clear that KG was no longer the player he once was. In fact, it appeared that Garnett, who had practically bullied Gasol, had the tables turned on him in the second go around when Pau proved to be too much for him at times. Was this a result of Pau becoming a better player or was it because of Kevin declining as a result of age and injuries? That's debatable, but again, it's clear that the Kevin Garnett we grew to know is no more.

On the other hand, David Lee, who is 7 years younger than Garnett, has missed a total of 3 games over the last 3 years, proving his durability. During that time he has been able to increase his production from 10.8 ppg and 8.9 rpg to 20.2 ppg and 11.7 rpg. In my opinion what's more impressive is that he did this on a Knicks team that didn't feature a premier pg or any other players worth noting. He also spent a considerable amount of time as a 6' 9" pf playing center in a system that didn't really support his style of play. Lee, again in my opinion, is highly underrated and at this point in their careers, is ahead of KG in pf rankings.

writ42
09-02-2010, 01:25 PM
LaMarcus Aldridge does deserve some more love but I feel that Jeff Green deserves to be on the list.

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 01:26 PM
And no one has yet to provide evidence why Smith is better than Randolph....

Josh Smith is the youngest player to have:

10 blocked shots in a game
500 career blocked shots, March 3, 2007
1,000 career blocked shots, February 2, 2010

HAS MORE BLOCKS THAN CENTER DWIGHT HOWARD IN LESS GAMES.

Dwight Howard : 489 games 1,042 blocks

Josh Smith : 457 games 1,069 blocks

He's only 24 still and will prob end up being the All-time leader in blocks. Going down in history.

What has Randolph done other than stack stats on bad teams?

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 01:33 PM
OK well hear what next time you look to say stuff like this gets your facts straight. We are not talking careers we are talking next season.... You talk about the difference in offense but thier difference in ORtg for over thier careers (since that is what you apparently took in to consideration) is actually less than that of their DRtg. So its really not that big of a gap.

They have two different roles and are 2 different players. Their is a reason however why Josh is widely regarded as one of the best defensive players in the game and up until last season Zach was seen as a me first chucker who at time though he was Kobe or Rose and kept launching bricks from 18 feet. Fact is Josh is the overall better player. If you watch them play enough you'd know that.
So if we're talking about next year, and last year Z-Bo proved to you that he is more than a chucker, that must mean he will do the same next year right? Josh Smith wasn't the top option like Randolph was. Randolph was forced to take shots cause his team sucked.
And Smith has been stuck on 16/8 numbers for what, 5 years now?

So if you were starting a team from scratch and all of the top 7 guys on this list were taken, you would pick KG over Lee? Now keep in mind that KG, who is now 34, has missed 49 games due to injury in the last 3 years and he has seen his production decline from 18.8 ppg and 9.2 rpg, as well as other stats to 14.3 ppg and 7.3 rpg. Even more telling was KG's performance in the finals where he matched up against Pau Gasol and averaged 15.2 ppg and 5.5 rpg, with Gasol averaging 18.5 ppg and 11.5 rpg. Now, of course one could argue that it was because he matched up against Gasol who is now one of the top 4's in the league, but consider the results of this same finals matchup 2 years earlier. In the 08 finals KG put up 18.2 ppg and 13 rpg, while Pau put up 14.7 ppg and 10.2 rpg. This shows an obvious decline in KG's production that I'm sure no one will disagree with.

Although I use stats to support my case, I'm a firm believer that statsdon't tell the whole story. However, from watching both of these battles between KG and Gasol it was clear that KG was no longer the player he once was. In fact, it appeared that Garnett, who had practically bullied Gasol, had the tables turned on him in the second go around when Pau proved to be too much for him at times. Was this a result of Pau becoming a better player or was it because of Kevin declining as a result of age and injuries? That's debatable, but again, it's clear that the Kevin Garnett we grew to know is no more.

On the other hand, David Lee, who is 7 years younger than Garnett, has missed a total of 3 games over the last 3 years, proving his durability. During that time he has been able to increase his production from 10.8 ppg and 8.9 rpg to 20.2 ppg and 11.7 rpg. In my opinion what's more impressive is that he did this on a Knicks team that didn't feature a premier pg or any other players worth noting. He also spent a considerable amount of time as a 6' 9" pf playing center in a system that didn't really support his style of play. Lee, again in my opinion, is highly underrated and at this point in their careers, is ahead of KG in pf rankings.
KG-Better net production defensive rating and simple overall rating than Boozer Randolph and Lee. So yes.

KG was argubaly the best player on the Celtics last year. He didn't have the stats, but he was defitantly the best.

KG's defensive rating was a 99 in the playoffs which is outstanding. That has a lot to do with playing Shard and Varejo, but it's not like Gasol owned him, (except on the boards which is Perkins thing)

David Lee is also the #1 option in an inflated Dantoni system. His D is below average too.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 01:57 PM
Josh Smith is the youngest player to have:

10 blocked shots in a game
500 career blocked shots, March 3, 2007
1,000 career blocked shots, February 2, 2010

HAS MORE BLOCKS THAN CENTER DWIGHT HOWARD IN LESS GAMES.

Dwight Howard : 489 games 1,042 blocks

Josh Smith : 457 games 1,069 blocks

He's only 24 still and will prob end up being the All-time leader in blocks. Going down in history.

What has Randolph done other than stack stats on bad teams?
Olajuawon career blocks at 462 games-1,577. Smith starting his career 3 years early is the only reason he has a chance at breaking the record. Mark Eaton, Mutumbo, KAJ, Robinson are all much better blockers than Smith.
Hakeem Olajuawon had a career average 3.1 blocks per game, and it was 3.5 before those last couple seasons on the bench. Josh Smith is at 2.3. Mark Eaton is close to 4.

And Dwight will have more blocks than Josh Smith, because
A. He's younger
B: He will be in the league longer than Smith.


And Randolph has made the ASG. Something Smith has yet to do .

DisturbedFTW83
09-02-2010, 02:00 PM
josh smith's numbers are better than the guy i picked, Lamarcus Aldridge, I just like Aldridge's game better. Gotta say Smith should be number 8 but I had to pick my guy LA.

YoungOne
09-02-2010, 02:27 PM
i take josh smith best all around talent of those imo

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 02:29 PM
I would also like to ask why Boozer is ahead of Smith? Head to head last year, Smith got the better numbers both games. So he is better in head-to-head match-ups. That is what should count, right? Head to head, not Boozer beating up on weaker PFs. Is it because Bulls fans outnumber Hawks fans 100 to 1 here?

Jewelz0376
09-02-2010, 02:37 PM
I would also like to ask why Boozer is ahead of Smith? Head to head last year, Smith got the better numbers both games. So he is better in head-to-head match-ups. That is what should count, right? Head to head, not Boozer beating up on weaker PFs. Is it because Bulls fans outnumber Hawks fans 100 to 1 here?

I don't think just because Smith put up better numbers in 2 games that means he's better... Being a better player is about consistently playing better than that player...Not just playing better over 2 games....Smith is a much better defender than Boozer, but Boozer is better on the offense end..What makes Boozer better imo is that he's a better rebounder...

Hawkeye15
09-02-2010, 02:38 PM
I would also like to ask why Boozer is ahead of Smith? Head to head last year, Smith got the better numbers both games. So he is better in head-to-head match-ups. That is what should count, right? Head to head, not Boozer beating up on weaker PFs. Is it because Bulls fans outnumber Hawks fans 100 to 1 here?

head to head is a terrible way to compare players.

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 03:07 PM
What makes Boozer better imo is that he's a better rebounder...

Good point.

farsouthside
09-02-2010, 03:27 PM
Lee

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 03:37 PM
I would also like to ask why Boozer is ahead of Smith? Head to head last year, Smith got the better numbers both games. So he is better in head-to-head match-ups. That is what should count, right? Head to head, not Boozer beating up on weaker PFs. Is it because Bulls fans outnumber Hawks fans 100 to 1 here?
Because I'm SURE that every time Smith was on the floor, Boozer was guarding him and vice versa :rolleyes:



And you didn't counter my KG argument either...

Swashcuff
09-02-2010, 03:43 PM
So if we're talking about next year, and last year Z-Bo proved to you that he is more than a chucker, that must mean he will do the same next year right? Josh Smith wasn't the top option like Randolph was. Randolph was forced to take shots cause his team sucked.
And Smith has been stuck on 16/8 numbers for what, 5 years now?

What team is that are we speaking of can't be the Grizzlies.

That's a foolish excuse especially if you have ever watch Zach play. Last season was a GREAT year for him he really showed maturity on offense A LOT with his shot selection, tried to be less like Dirk and more like Duncan on offense and it paid off well.

You apparently don't watch enough of Smith to appreciate his versatility, intangibles and impact in every basketball game in which he plays. He brings a whole lot more to the table than just raw #s.

IversonIsKrazy
09-02-2010, 03:46 PM
This was a pretty tough one for me. I looked as it as if I could have any of the remaining guys as my starting PF for next year who would it be? I chose David West.

David Lee was a stat whore in NY and has no toughness whatsoever.

Zach Randolph had a good year, but can become amazingly unefficent at times.

LaMarcus Aldrige is a very soft PF, and is just a jump shooter, does not post or drive.

Josh Smith was my runner up, but he struggled in this year's playoffs, and is always under a 15ppg guy, you can't really rely on him on offense, has no true game on offense, no jumper, no post, can drive but tends to be lazy, hes just really athletic, which is why hes always one of the leaders for bpg and spg.

David West has a strong post game, and a jumper. He is tough. He had an off year, just like the Hornets did the past year, but he is a strong player, with a good post game, which is why he got my vote for #8.

Testaverde16
09-02-2010, 03:48 PM
could only be Josh Smith

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 03:57 PM
This was a pretty tough one for me. I looked as it as if I could have any of the remaining guys as my starting PF for next year who would it be? I chose David West.

David Lee was a stat whore in NY and has no toughness whatsoever.

Zach Randolph had a good year, but can become amazingly unefficent at times.

LaMarcus Aldrige is a very soft PF, and is just a jump shooter, does not post or drive.

Josh Smith was my runner up, but he struggled in this year's playoffs, and is always under a 15ppg guy, you can't really rely on him on offense, has no true game on offense, no jumper, no post, can drive but tends to be lazy, hes just really athletic, which is why hes always one of the leaders for bpg and spg.

David West has a strong post game, and a jumper. He is tough. He had an off year, just like the Hornets did the past year, but he is a strong player, with a good post game, which is why he got my vote for #8.
Or maybe, JUST maybe he had an off year because a certain PG wasn't there most of the season....

d-baller23
09-02-2010, 03:59 PM
Rashard Lewis is one of the best in the league and he doesn't even naturally play this position.

greek miami hea
09-02-2010, 03:59 PM
love

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 06:02 PM
Because I'm SURE that every time Smith was on the floor, Boozer was guarding him and vice versa :rolleyes:

PF guarding PF. Yes, how strange.

Jets012
09-02-2010, 07:14 PM
I would also like to ask why Boozer is ahead of Smith? Head to head last year, Smith got the better numbers both games. So he is better in head-to-head match-ups. That is what should count, right? Head to head, not Boozer beating up on weaker PFs. Is it because Bulls fans outnumber Hawks fans 100 to 1 here?


How exactly is Boozer playing against weak Power Forwards? He was playing in the western conference last year against players like Duncan, Dirk, Pau, and Amare. Those 4 power forwards I just mentioned I believe are the Top 4Power Forwards in the league. Also, in his division alone he was playing against Love and Aldridge who are also pretty nice power forwards. I dont know how you can say Boozer was playing against worse power forwards?

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 07:30 PM
How exactly is Boozer playing against weak Power Forwards? He was playing in the western conference last year against players like Duncan, Dirk, Pau, and Amare. Those 4 power forwards I just mentioned I believe are the Top 4Power Forwards in the league. Also, in his division alone he was playing against Love and Aldridge who are also pretty nice power forwards. I dont know how you can say Boozer was playing against worse power forwards?

That's not how I wanted to word that. Wasn't trying to do a vs. thing. Was saying Boozer's #'s against people like Josh Smith and better and the #'s of his against people lower than Smith. Do you get what I'm saying? It wasn't a Josh Smith vs Boozer there. It was Boozer's #'s against top PFs head to head then Boozer's #'s against lower ones head to head.

Khalifa21
09-02-2010, 07:55 PM
I love LaMarcus Aldridge but this one goes to J-Smoove.

ball4reel
09-02-2010, 07:59 PM
It was close with Smith and Lee, but I went for Lee in this one. Just want to add... Boozer over KG is a fail, IMO....

x2

RocketPower2010
09-02-2010, 09:09 PM
With Splitter being the starting center in San Antonio, Duncan is naturally the PF. Lee is now the starting PF with the warriors next to Biedrins. Jefferson and Horford both started the majority of their games at C last season. Its quite simple when you think about it.

Ok so your logic is, Duncan and Lee will play power forward THIS SEASON, therefore they are considered PFs. Whereas Jefferson and Horford played center LAST SEASON, they are considered centers? It's not quite simple. Either talk about last season or this season. Don't bounce around to suit your preference.

YankeesNets11
09-02-2010, 09:15 PM
Josh Smith

Bruno
09-02-2010, 09:59 PM
As I've voted since PF#4, Josh Smith.

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 10:02 PM
As I've voted since PF#4, Josh Smith.

Right on. I didn't vote until 2 PFs ago because I knew by voters who is going to take up the spots.

This list is crap anyways. Dirk should be #1. If you switch Dirk and Gasol on teams, Gasol wouldn't touch what Dirk has had as the #1 option (Memphis anyone?). Kobe and Dirk would be winning titles too. And the all-mighty Amare was bashed by everyone but the Suns for the last couple years. Now he is with the Knicks and all of a sudden Knicks is back in the playoffs with someone who doesn't know the word defense. Good luck with that.

XJW18
09-02-2010, 10:53 PM
WOW
where is the love for David Lee??
Seriously??

David Lee
PPG 20.2
RPG 11.7
APG 3.6
SPG 1.0
BPG 0.5
FG% 0.545
FT% 0.812
3P% 0.000
MPG 37.3

Josh Smith
PPG 14.1
RPG 9.0
APG 2.6
SPG 1.2
BPG 1.7
FG% 0.481
FT% 0.659
3P% 0.333
MPG 35.6

D. Lee has a better post game, better Rebounder, better FT shooter, better FG percentage..?

Kakaroach
09-02-2010, 11:07 PM
I like Lee's game more so than Smith's to be honest. But Smith's defensive ability gets the vote from me.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 11:08 PM
PF guarding PF. Yes, how strange.
:facepalm:


First of all Horford and Okur/Millsap would also be guarding him on occasion. Plus, there's something called a bench in the NBA

Bruno
09-02-2010, 11:08 PM
Right on. I didn't vote until 2 PFs ago because I knew by voters who is going to take up the spots.

This list is crap anyways. Dirk should be #1. If you switch Dirk and Gasol on teams, Gasol wouldn't touch what Dirk has had as the #1 option (Memphis anyone?). Kobe and Dirk would be winning titles too. And the all-mighty Amare was bashed by everyone but the Suns for the last couple years. Now he is with the Knicks and all of a sudden Knicks is back in the playoffs with someone who doesn't know the word defense. Good luck with that.

Smiths game speaks for itself. Even beyond his off-the-charts athleticism..

He was first on the Hawks in PER, clocking in at 21.0, despite being the 3rd option, if that. He was also second in win-shares. John Johnson was 3rd.

Josh Smith averaged 4.2 assists last year. He averaged 1.6 steals and 2.1 blocks (3.7 combined steals and blocks). No other PF touches Smith when it comes to assisting, or combined steals+ blocks.

-Assists, 09-10.
Smith- 4.2 apg.
Pau- 3.4 apg.
Dirk- 2.7 apg.
TD- 3.2 apg.
Bosh- 2.4 apg.
Amare- 1.0 apg.
Boozer- 3.2 apg.
KG- 2.7 apg.


-Combined Steals and Blocks, 09-10.
Smith- 3.7
Pau- 2.3
Dirk- 1.9
TD- 2.1
Bosh- 1.6.
Amare- 1.6.
Boozer- 1.6.
KG- 1.8.

remember, Smith had a combined s+b average of 3.7 per game... His activity on the defensive end isn't matched by a single player voted in front of him here on PSD. When you also consider he still gives you 16 ppg and 9 rpg, its hard to find a reason why he dropped to 8th here.


To close, Josh Smith had a total win share of 9.3 and a DWS of 5.1!. Lets compare his WS and DWS with every other player voted in front of him.

Pau- 11/4.2
Dirk- 12.3/3.9
TD- 10.9/4.5
Bosh- 9.6/1.7
Amare- 10.7/2.5
Boozer- 9.9/4.6
KG- 7.3/3.8.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 11:08 PM
Right on. I didn't vote until 2 PFs ago because I knew by voters who is going to take up the spots.

This list is crap anyways. Dirk should be #1. If you switch Dirk and Gasol on teams, Gasol wouldn't touch what Dirk has had as the #1 option (Memphis anyone?). Kobe and Dirk would be winning titles too. And the all-mighty Amare was bashed by everyone but the Suns for the last couple years. Now he is with the Knicks and all of a sudden Knicks is back in the playoffs with someone who doesn't know the word defense. Good luck with that.
I actually agree with you on this

Bruno
09-02-2010, 11:10 PM
WOW
where is the love for David Lee??
Seriously??

David Lee
PPG 20.2
RPG 11.7
APG 3.6
SPG 1.0
BPG 0.5
FG% 0.545
FT% 0.812
3P% 0.000
MPG 37.3

Josh Smith
PPG 14.1
RPG 9.0
APG 2.6
SPG 1.2
BPG 1.7
FG% 0.481
FT% 0.659
3P% 0.333
MPG 35.6

D. Lee has a better post game, better Rebounder, better FT shooter, better FG percentage..?

Most of those stats are incorrect. Some of them aren't even close.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 11:12 PM
Smiths game speaks for itself. Even beyond his off-the-charts athleticism..

He was first on the Hawks in PER, clocking in at 21.0, despite being the 3rd option, if that. He was also second in win-shares. John Johnson was 3rd.

Josh Smith averaged 4.2 assists last year. He averaged 1.6 steals and 2.1 blocks (3.7 combined steals and blocks). No other PF touches Smith when it comes to assisting, or combined steals+ blocks.

-Assists, 09-10.
Pau- 3.4 apg.
Dirk- 2.7 apg.
TD- 3.2 apg.
Bosh- 2.4 apg.
Amare- 1.0 apg.
Boozer- 3.2 apg.
KG- 2.7 apg.


-Combined Steals and Blocks, 09-10.
Pau- 2.3
Dirk- 1.9
TD- 2.1
Bosh- 1.6.
Amare- 1.6.
Boozer- 1.6.
KG- 1.8.

remember, Smith had a combined s+b average of 3.7 per game... His activity on the defensive end isn't matched by a single player voted in front of him here on PSD. When you also consider he still gives you 16 ppg and 9 rpg, its hard to find a reason why he dropped to 8th here.


To close, Josh Smith had a total win share of 9.3 and a DWS of 5.1!. Lets compare his WS and DWS with every other player voted in front of him.

Pau- 11/4.2
Dirk- 12.3/3.9
TD- 10.9/4.5
Bosh- 9.6/1.7
Amare- 10.7/2.5
Boozer- 9.9/4.6
KG- 7.3/3.8.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

Yet KG's WS/48 is much higher than Smith's.....

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 11:21 PM
Smiths game speaks for itself. Even beyond his off-the-charts athleticism..

He was first on the Hawks in PER, clocking in at 21.0, despite being the 3rd option, if that. He was also second in win-shares. John Johnson was 3rd.

Josh Smith averaged 4.2 assists last year. He averaged 1.6 steals and 2.1 blocks (3.7 combined steals and blocks). No other PF touches Smith when it comes to assisting, or combined steals+ blocks.

-Assists, 09-10.
Smith- 4.2 apg.
Pau- 3.4 apg.
Dirk- 2.7 apg.
TD- 3.2 apg.
Bosh- 2.4 apg.
Amare- 1.0 apg.
Boozer- 3.2 apg.
KG- 2.7 apg.


-Combined Steals and Blocks, 09-10.
Smith- 3.7
Pau- 2.3
Dirk- 1.9
TD- 2.1
Bosh- 1.6.
Amare- 1.6.
Boozer- 1.6.
KG- 1.8.

remember, Smith had a combined s+b average of 3.7 per game... His activity on the defensive end isn't matched by a single player voted in front of him here on PSD. When you also consider he still gives you 16 ppg and 9 rpg, its hard to find a reason why he dropped to 8th here.


To close, Josh Smith had a total win share of 9.3 and a DWS of 5.1!. Lets compare his WS and DWS with every other player voted in front of him.

Pau- 11/4.2
Dirk- 12.3/3.9
TD- 10.9/4.5
Bosh- 9.6/1.7
Amare- 10.7/2.5
Boozer- 9.9/4.6
KG- 7.3/3.8.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

Damn dude.:D I'm the Hawks homer and wouldn't of went to all that trouble. Thanks alot really.:clap:

*Silver&Black*
09-02-2010, 11:22 PM
I actually agree with you on this

:cheers:

Bruno
09-02-2010, 11:25 PM
Yet KG's WS/48 is much higher than Smith's.....

I gotta say I'm not a fan of the WS/48 minutes, or 48 minutes stats in general. They're nice, I'm glad I can look at them but isn't what you actually produce a lot more significant than what you could have assuming your body could even put up with 48 mpg for 82 games?

Sorry if Chronz or some other stat guru flames me for this, I just dont think it's the most accurate way of looking at a players production.

Sportfan
09-02-2010, 11:47 PM
I gotta say I'm not a fan of the WS/48 minutes, or 48 minutes stats in general. They're nice, I'm glad I can look at them but isn't what you actually produce a lot more significant than what you could have assuming your body could even put up with 48 mpg for 82 games?

Sorry if Chronz or some other stat guru flames me for this, I just dont think it's the most accurate way of looking at a players production.
Well in the Celtics case, when you have a very strong bench player who could easily be starting (sheed) why overplay KG and risk another injury? KG delivered when he was given playing time. Smith's backup was....Maurice Evans? Especially since Smith is younger and more athletic. Of course he's going to be more durable, butt KG delivered bigger when he was on the court

Enemey
09-03-2010, 12:32 AM
I think Z-Bo should be #9 and D.Lee # 10. I voted for J.smith at #8

*Silver&Black*
09-03-2010, 12:56 AM
I think Z-Bo should be #9 and D.Lee # 10. I voted for J.smith at #8

I think #9 and #10 should be that as well.

NBA-GMaster
09-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Scooolaaaa!!

Bruno
09-03-2010, 04:03 AM
Well in the Celtics case, when you have a very strong bench player who could easily be starting (sheed) why overplay KG and risk another injury? KG delivered when he was given playing time. Smith's backup was....Maurice Evans? Especially since Smith is younger and more athletic. Of course he's going to be more durable, butt KG delivered bigger when he was on the court

In terms of per minute production (PER) Smith slightly edged KG this past season. Smith had a 21, KG had a 19.4. If were gona get technical about it, Smith delivered bigger while on the court- but thats a mute point, and point taken- I get ya.

I agree with what you're saying, I wouldn't expect KG to log as many minutes as Smith. It would be bad for him, and for the Celtics, especially considering their bench. I wouldn't argue KGs importance in terms of the success they had or the wins they had and his contribution to those wins. Like you mentioned his WS/48 minutes alludes to that and speaks for itself.

Ultimately for me, even if KG delivered bigger while on the court, Smith contributed more overall (as he should, playing 811 more total minutes than KG), making his overall impact bigger on the large scale- even if KG was more efficient in less minutes? We're not really even arguing the players (since they're so close anyways) more so just what would you rather have- more efficient production in less minutes vs, more total production, MPG aside.

Bruno
09-03-2010, 04:09 AM
Damn dude.:D I'm the Hawks homer and wouldn't of went to all that trouble. Thanks alot really.:clap:

I'm a big fan of Smiths game. He's fun to watch. He also killed for me in fantasy, making it kinda easy to argue for him, statistically speaking.

yanksknicksgmen
09-03-2010, 04:29 AM
Not sure how its not Lee. I would take Lee and Randolph over Smith

Antipod
09-03-2010, 05:06 AM
D LEE or J Smith /// hard one

Hawkeye15
09-03-2010, 09:32 AM
#9 is up. Thanks for voting